Budget water injection

[linuxman51]

With some board members reporting success after installing water injection on their rides, and me having a problem with intake air temps after the car sits for a while (well, all yall have the problem too, i just happen to be able to see it) I figured I oughta at least explore & report, so here goes.

**As of right now this is not tested, I will report back & edit where necessary**

Parts (so far)
Sealable tank, either heavy duty plastic or metal (I'm going to try a small gas can)
Raytek P50 washer pump (advanced auto parts, $14)
clear hose for it (lowes sells 10 feet for $3)
Vaccum fittings (at least two for now, i'll report back after the fact)
Cold start injector (isaac's gonna eat that up haha)* (I'm still not set on this yet, might use a nozzle instead, less wiring)
vaccum solenoid (normally closed, dsm's and rx-7's have these, and probably ****loads of other cars as well)
vaccum line (preferably of the same thickness as the water line)

Here's the skinny. You'll want to put the vaccum switch in line with the vaccum line to a source on the intake manifold, and then plumb it in *at the top* of whatever container you're using. then at the bottom (lowest point) plumb in the other, this will go to the inlet on the pump, outlet on the pump goes to whatever means of injection you're using into the cold side intercooler pipe (gives it a bit more time to mix around). For a trigger you can use a hobbes switch (i'm using my megasquirt), the switch should turn on both the pump and power the soleniod.. the vaccum source acts like a rising rate pressure regulator, reducing the strain on the pump, and the idea at least is that there wont be a significant flow reduction at high boost levels with this.

I will try'n document as best possible & post results in the next day or two

[Steve C]

There is a lot of info out there about how to build a water injection system, anybody can read them and post an article after reading up on the topic.

I was under the impression that this forum was to share hands on experience. How-to posts from someone who hasn't done the mod don't carry any weight with me.

If you build this system you are talking about, feel free to share.

[Boris740]

There is a lot of info out there about how to build a water injection system, anybody can read them and post an article after reading up on the topic.

I was under the impression that this forum was to share hands on experience. How-to posts from someone who hasn't done the mod don't carry any weight with me.

If you build this system you are talking about, feel free to share.

This part of the forum is titled "Article Composition"

[Hank Scorpio]

http://www.gtnetwork.de/forums/images/smilies/popc1.gif

[Steve C]

not sure how this second post happened, please delete

[Hank Scorpio]

I will try'n document as best possible & post results in the next day or two

[nohbudi]

Now, im gonna shove my thumb up its butt. That'l piss it off real good.

[linuxman51]

There is a lot of info out there about how to build a water injection system, anybody can read them and post an article after reading up on the topic.

I was under the impression that this forum was to share hands on experience. How-to posts from someone who hasn't done the mod don't carry any weight with me.

If you build this system you are talking about, feel free to share.

blow me. if you'd read the whole thing you would have seen the part about "I'm installing it tomorrow and will post the results".

and I did build it, it worked great for approximately 3 hours, and then the pump died :e-shrug:
I set it up using a 1 gallon fuel container, the pump inlet fed through the cap (it was pretty much sealed), and there was a check valve on the pressure equalizer (so it wouldn't see vaccum). Instead of a cold start injector I used a nozzle, and with just water I could easily drop intake temps 15 degrees in a matter of seconds as confirmed in megatune.

So kiss my ass, if you don't like it, don't do it.

[Steve C]

Blah, blah, blah. I stand by my comments.

blow me. if you'd read the whole thing you would have seen the part about
[quote:23b6f56cb4]If you build this system you are talking about, feel free to share.[/quote:23b6f56cb4]

BTW I have a system half constructed. I'm using a regular injector and a standard main pump with the stock regulator, a recirculartory system. The injector will get it's signal from the ECU through a transistor (so it won't load the ECU) and only operate above a couple of pounds of boost. This way the amount of water injection will be proportionate to the amount of fuel entering the engine.

When I have it done and if it works to my satisfaction I'll likely then write a post about it. However I won't write any posts about how to build it till then.

[Chris_R]

Will the alcohol in the water be sufficient to lubricate the injector?

-Chris

[linuxman51]

Blah, blah, blah. I stand by my comments.

blow me. if you'd read the whole thing you would have seen the part about
[quote:9ae7b74695]If you build this system you are talking about, feel free to share.

BTW I have a system half constructed. I'm using a regular injector and a standard main pump with the stock regulator, a recirculartory system. The injector will get it's signal from the ECU through a transistor (so it won't load the ECU) and only operate above a couple of pounds of boost. This way the amount of water injection will be proportionate to the amount of fuel entering the engine.

When I have it done and if it works to my satisfaction I'll likely then write a post about it. However I won't write any posts about how to build it till then.[/quote:9ae7b74695]

well.. I did, and I built it. and it was tested. and it did indeed work-until the pump flaked out, wether or not that was a fluke remains to be seen, I havent had a chance to get a replacement.

to quote the imortal words of Eric Simpson, "Some of us do these things". Like it or not, agree with it or not, it was built more or less along the lines I outlined (didnt have a vaccum switch available) for a grand total of $18.00, pump and container. Perhaps I should retract all my posts concerning what i've done with megasquirt, since its an eternal work in progress then eh?

Oh I've got a jolly good idea.. Lets ALL not post ANYTHING that might not be concrete... thats brilliant! you've really hit upon something there Steve-o.. I havent heard such a fantastic idea in years.. We can all hide in our garages, not sharing info lest it be incorrect or incomplete, until our cars all have 500hp and 500ftlbs of torque, and then we can all compare notes and tell each other what we did wrong. BRILLIANT!

[BoxDriver2]

[quote:b4d5fc8208]Oh I've got a jolly good idea.. Lets ALL not post ANYTHING that might not be concrete... thats brilliant! you've really hit upon something there Steve-o.. I havent heard such a fantastic idea in years.. We can all hide in our garages, not sharing info lest it be incorrect or incomplete, until our cars all have 500hp and 500ftlbs of torque, and then we can all compare notes and tell each other what we did wrong. BRILLIANT![/quote:b4d5fc8208]

I've been doing this for a while already. Seems to work out great, since i just don't care anymore

http://www.gtnetwork.de/forums/images/smilies/popc1.gif

[Steve C]

I've posted stuff about work in progress, I just didn't think an unproven system was article worthy. Didn't mean to hurt your tender feelings so bad. Again, I didn't think it was article worthy, there is a section for mods.

[linuxman51]

Real world results as shown by the IAT sensor in megasquirt:
Plain h2o:
intake temp (heat soaked) 101 F
misting for ~a block: 68-72 F (off boost to zero vaccum)
let it sit for about two blocks, hit it again and rolled into it:56F (ambient was around 35 F or so, misting post intercooler).

Switched to 70% isopropyl (its what was available for mailbox murderers @9pm).
intaketemps: 117
Initial misting ~ 2 blocks: 80 F( :freak: )
let it sit, temps rose up to 90, sprayed again, rolled about 8 psi, temps dropped to around 58, eased on and off boost while spraying, got the temps down to 39 (and after a full boost no spray run, they were 45) 8-)

Not sure why the alcohol is slower to react, I probably wont be doing much more field testing, perhaps more water in the alcohol, or another type would be better (the $10 a gallon stuff lowes sold worked well in the water mister we had at the track)

[the poi]

hot damn, sounds pretty hot... id imagine you're ultimately gonna hook it up to an MSnS output, aye? i'm planning on eventually running water injection; relay in the fuel pump continuity wire, connected to the pressure switch thats used stock for overboost fuel cut, and a low coolant temp switch in the water injection resovoir. (and a warning light ont he dash). thus: run out of water, fuel cuts at high boost; dont end up with detonation if the system has been programmed to assume a cooler intake temp...

other note: what do you plan on doing with fuel if you permenently integrate water injection? if a lot of that extra fuel at high RPM and boost is to cool the intake charge, and the water can now do that, what do you do with the fuel? Do you tune it to some AFR or the like, and then inject water until theres no detonation?

[linuxman51]

a/f hasnt really changed. I was going to hook it up to the msns but we ran into a snag (Well, sam ran into a snag, theres really no telling :rofl: ) something about it only outputing 5 volts or something.

the ecu takes care of some of the fuel stuff (you run a little richer since the intake charge is now cooler and thusly more dense) based on the IAT readings. Under full boost i havent noticed a drop in temps (however I've watched and the temps dont really rise more than say 10 degrees in 60 degree ambient weather) I think I need to play around and get a good mix, i've heard 50/50 with the lowe's stuff isnt too bad, etc.

[the poi]

a/f hasnt really changed. I was going to hook it up to the msns but we ran into a snag (Well, sam ran into a snag, theres really no telling :rofl: ) something about it only outputing 5 volts or something.
ahhhh! i was just about to PM you like two days ago asking about that, when i stumbled upon the answer on the yahoo group: it does only output reference (so 5v) and it really cant take any curent at all. you're supposed to set up a circuit just like the f-idle and fpr control; basically just a transistor to ground the output. got the parts yesterday, set up the board tonight (havent had the opportunity to actually see if it works tho...a small crisis ate into my time) Dunno if theres a place to get em locally, but the transistor you need for each input is a 2n2222a (or an NTE123AP) the diode is a 1n4001 and a 1k resistor. the schematics are here on the "output" page
http://www.bgsoflex.com/v22/megasquirt_ShemV2.2.pdf

[Unregistered]

By referencing the volvo green books while contemplating this mod, I found that even the N/A CSI flows way too much for a water system.

[linuxman51]

After doing more passive research (reading on the net and watching roto re me try n blow his **** up), one of the best sources for the stuff to inject is walmart's(or anyone elses) blue windshield washer fluid (caution! contains methanol! very flamabe..... hmm ;-) ).

and are you ready for the price? (tbricks people oughta eat this alive)

$.92 a gallon. $1.07 for Apex at advanced autoparts (if you hate walmart)

just a heads up. seems to be what most of the people run.

[tequila_gundam_no_chaser]

After doing more passive research (reading on the net and watching roto re me try n blow his **** up), one of the best sources for the stuff to inject is walmart's(or anyone elses) blue windshield washer fluid (caution! contains methanol! very flamabe..... hmm ;-) ).

and are you ready for the price? (tbricks people oughta eat this alive)

$.92 a gallon. $1.07 for Apex at advanced autoparts (if you hate walmart)

just a heads up. seems to be what most of the people run.

sssoooo...now all you need to do is post another mod about how to convert the windshield washer fluid into a water injection system, seeing as how its already filled iwth the stuff and has a pump.

[MikeSr.]

Dick Prince has a good article on this at http://www.ovlov.net/waterinjection.html

[The Aspirator]

So the soap in it and all the other nasty bug fighting chemicals won't hurt anything in the engine? I remember one article saying that a water/alky mix does a good job of cleaning the windshield anyways, so he just uses his for both. I'd like to do this one day, if anything just for another fun project! Plus I've got that monster windshield washer bottle just sitting there begging for another good use....

Good stuff

John

[MikeSr.]

WWII supercharged aircraft engines used a 50/50 mix of distilled water and ETHYL alcohol. This produced best cooling of the air charge and was easier on the engine internals than other mixtures. Plus , if you were really bored,you could drink it. The Russians used it in defrost systems for aircraft also. Russian pilots wondered why the airscreen would freeze over at high altitudes-the mechanics drank the de-icer fluid!

[The Aspirator]

Hey Kenny, how's this for budget water injection..... FREE.

I just made myself up a quick and dirty system that Isaac would be very proud of. Basically all I did was used a cold start injector, unplugged the windshield squirters and ran the hose from the stock pump to the CS injector, wired the CS injector to come on with the washer pump, drilled a hole in the intake pipe after the IC, and zip tied it on with an injector O-ring to seal. That's it. And it works great!

I had about 10% washer fluid left, then bought an $.89 gallon of distilled water and tossed all that in (if you're totally broke just use tapwater). So for the moment I don't have windshield squirters, or wipers for that matter cause I unplugged them, but I'm just in the testing stages of this mod. To plumb washer hose to the cold start injector, just take one of the K-jet fuel lines and start cutting away the rubber and plastic hoses, then you'll see how easy it is. They're just hose barbs under there, and washer hose fits perfectly tight over the big part.

To activate I just pull the windshield washer lever on the steering column, it's neat! Intake temps did go down some, but then again it this test was at 1:00am and it was like 30-40* ambient temps up here, so not a huge change in temps. But it did eliminate some small pinging, which is cool!!!

Ultimately I'll hook it up much more professionally. I'll use some sort of junkyard pressure switch to activate it, probably at kinda low boost (5-8?) to keep the charge air cool as the boost goes higher. I'll also have a nice little LED inside telling me exactly when it's on. And I'll probably use a seperate washer pump for this, so that I can retain the windshield stuff. When I get a trunk mounted battery I might put a 1-2gal container in that spot and maybe make it a pressurized tank, to take some strain off the pumps. Ohh yeah, and I'd probably use one or two special misting nozzles from McMaster.com (3178K87).

But for now, while testing, this is really neato!! I kinda got bored and started looking into this, then just went and did it. I can't wait to try it out on a hot day.

John

[the poi]

anyone whose feeling sufficeintly ghetto (so like, all of us) pick up a wagon washer tank- it has two pumps for the tank. run one to your intake, and one to your existing windshield washers, and the best part is, you can fill the tank with 50%water 50%alcohol and use it for both, hehe!

[The Aspirator]

I like the idea! Actually, the washer pump on wagons that goes to the rear windshield is supposed to be more powerful than a regular front windshield pump. I converted my pump to a wagon rear a few months ago. John