What should I do with this b234f?

[2fast4u]

Well I posted asking about a car I wanted to buy with a 16v. Turns out it is 16v. It was rebuilt in december of 2006(documentation as proof) and has LESS than 5k miles on it. My first plan was to swap the head over and rebuild my b230ft. This seems so useless to rip a fresh head off a fresh motor and then toss the fresh motor aside just to build another one. I have read for over 5 hours straight last night and a few things were not updated. First off the b234 walls were not uneven. Second the oil pump could be bad or good, but not terrible. Third Freds got chips for a b234f+t. Forth, it seems the valves will always kiss the pistons if the belt snaps, so why put reliefs? The motor is a 89. Guessing it is going to have skinny rods. Due to the fact that it is a b234f will it still have K marked on it?

I have searched and searched. I know the 16v has more compression. any way to lower it without ripping the slugs out? I know how to do the 16v swap to a b230ft with my eyes shut I have read it over so many times by so many different people.

what should I do? seems a waste to not use this motor but why not? Car is going to be a Holset H1c, aw71(till it goes I will have some nnniiiceee launches;-)), and a custom intake manifold.

[adrianpike]

pop the pan, check the rods.

it bolts right into a 700, there's nothing holding you back, get it done.

[MikeHardy]

Forth, it seems the valves will always kiss the pistons if the belt snaps, so why put reliefs?

so that they don't kiss the pistons during normal opening and closing

[2fast4u]

adrian that was a very short yet inspiring answer:rofl:. I need the x member from the gle. Compression issues?

[Two 87s]

Stock 16v have reliefs, don't they? What I mean is, people only talk about doing valve reliefs because they're put a 16v head on a B230FT bottom end, and they are cutting reliefs in those pistons.

If you're using the whole engine, that's not even an issue, right?

Aaron

[adrianpike]

adrian that was a very short yet inspiring answer:rofl:. I need the x member from the gle. Compression issues?

It'll be fine. Mike made the 300 club with compression out the wazoo.

[MikeHardy]

Stock 16v have reliefs, don't they? What I mean is, people only talk about doing valve reliefs because they're put a 16v head on a B230FT bottom end, and they are cutting reliefs in those pistons.

If you're using the whole engine, that's not even an issue, right?

Aaron

no it's not, unless you find someone to do some wild 16V cams then they might need to be a bit deeper

[Janspeed]

I need the x member from the gle.

no, not necessarily, it's exactly the same except for an extra sheetmetal extention which is welded onto the driversside of the crossmember. It can be easily copied in order to use OEM 16V motormounts.

modifying a 16V x-member for 8V use is even easier! Flex the extention of!

[2fast4u]

So this whole boost a stock compression b234f isn't all that bad? i never see anyone try it. everyone just swaps heads. should i run a thicker hg? freds chip +holset. doesnt sound like PERFECT tuning for high compression.(no offense fred if your around).

[adrianpike]

You'll be wanting your own form of programmable EFI, since you'll be looking at some serious ignition retard under boostus.

Thicker HG might not be a horrible idea.

Got a mani yet?

[2fast4u]

You'll be wanting your own form of programmable EFI, since you'll be looking at some serious ignition retard under boostus.

Thicker HG might not be a horrible idea.

Got a mani yet?

jesus..:doh:. I was hoping nobody would say that about the ecu. I am deathly afraid of megasquirt. I have no clue what any of it means. I have read and read and even talked to guys who sell them. Still know I will eff it up bad. Plus another thing I thought of was, with a higher comp. ratio and boost I am looking at race gas or mix. wont retarding the timing help things run better under boost but remove some power?

And about the manifold. Do you mean exhaust or intake? If you mean exhaust I havent decided on getting a b204t mani or getting a custom one made. the intake I will be making a custom steel one.;-) thanks guys

[frpe82]

Well... I have B230FT+16v and B234F+T chips available that will give you 300HP+.

You will not be able to get 300HP+ on stock B234F compression though.

[Hank Scorpio]

You will not be able to get 300HP+ on stock B234F compression though.

That sounds like a challenge.

[2fast4u]

thanks for chiming in fred. anyone know how to calculate a compression ratio with a thicker hg? lol. I dont mind lowering the CR but the motor has less than 5k miles on it and I dont want to rip the pistons out and have them dished. I could do some handy work with a dremel but that isnt even. This could all be a big waste of time if its a K block too. thanks guys

[adrianpike]

You will not be able to get 300HP+ on stock B234F compression though.

Sounds like a challenge to me too.

[linuxman51]

Well... I have B230FT+16v and B234F+T chips available that will give you 300HP+.

You will not be able to get 300HP+ on stock B234F compression though.


so 275whp on b234f compression doesnt count? I'll be sure to call mike back over here to put the car up around 320whp then.....

[HansW]

Hi

Just have a look at the side of the block -- is there a K casted in -- if so it's One. but the last weak blocks came off the line june 1988, so if its a 1989 reg and built engine -- the date is casted on the head, its alreay the stronger design.

[MikeHardy]

thanks for chiming in fred. anyone know how to calculate a compression ratio with a thicker hg? lol. I dont mind lowering the CR but the motor has less than 5k miles on it and I dont want to rip the pistons out and have them dished. I could do some handy work with a dremel but that isnt even. This could all be a big waste of time if its a K block too. thanks guys

thicker gasket might make it more ping prone even with less compression

[linuxman51]

thanks for chiming in fred. anyone know how to calculate a compression ratio with a thicker hg? lol. I dont mind lowering the CR but the motor has less than 5k miles on it and I dont want to rip the pistons out and have them dished. I could do some handy work with a dremel but that isnt even. This could all be a big waste of time if its a K block too. thanks guys

I would not dish the pistons. What you might want to do is pull the pan and see if you've got 13mm rods or 9mm rods, if its 9's i wouldn't fool with it, b230f 16v it (use the pistons, maybe get a new set of rings. or you could put 13mm rods in the 16v motor, save ya on the rings)

[adrianpike]

Hi

Just have a look at the side of the block -- is there a K casted in -- if so it's One. but the last weak blocks came off the line june 1988, so if its a 1989 reg and built engine -- the date is casted on the head, its alreay the stronger design.

You sure that B230 and 234 "K" shenanigans are the same?

[suterman]

some b234f did come with 13mm rods for sure, but like they say they only way of telling is to look, I chucked one away last year, it had a crank scraper too which if bent in half and chucked (noob).:oops:


BB-Q had/has a group buy going on different gauge cometec (sp?) HG's,


I hear you can run a b234f + t on stock ecus upto 7psi. (TB lore)

[2fast4u]

i could take the 13mm rods out of the crappy motor(b230ft) and put them in the b234f if its a k? I will have to check but I havent picked up the car yet.

[John V, outside agitator]

thicker gasket might make it more ping prone even with less compression

Yep, that was what got me looking at the whole compression hgt thing vs compression way back in 1987.
The Ford 1500 V4s in the SAAB 96 were zero deck 90mm bore/45.5mm comp hgt Mahle pistons and the were nominally 9.0:1

In 1971 a new Federal EPA emissions standard came into effect about reducing NOX levels.
NOX levels go UP as combustion chamber temperatures goes up and that goes up with compression ratio, so every bodies solution was to lower compression ratios to about 8:1.
Saab chose to go to a 1700 V4 using the same 90mm bore but they made a "long stroke" motor of a whopping 66.8mm vs the 1500s 58.6mmstroke , and used the same 130.5mm rods.
Naturally they couldn't use the 45.5mm pistons so for the emissions motors they shortened the piston comp height to 39.5mm.

Those of you paying attention to the stroke would see that to keep a zero deck motor, they should have used 41.5mm pistons, so the extra 2mm meant the pistons were down the bore 2mm. Add a 1mm headgasket and they were 3mm from the nice cool head.

The 8:1 motors pinged like a sonny beach.

The machine shop I work with talked me into surfacing the block on the first "Long rod/stroker" I was building for my own rally car using 134mm Carrillo rods I had gotten 6 for $100 new. So I surfaced the block for zero deck---with the 71.8mm crank and the 92nn piston with shorter comp height it needed about 1.2mm cut.

So there I had a 10.8:1 zero deck motor and it ran OK on used beer they sell as 89 octane.
Rallied it with 94 octane.

No ping, and lasted 5 seasons.
NO PING.
And we load the motors hard.

And that was the first long rod/shorter comp height motor I did.

[2fast4u]

so how do I lower my compression ratio safely?:e-shrug:

[frpe82]

so 275whp on b234f compression doesnt count? I'll be sure to call mike back over here to put the car up around 320whp then.....
Yeah, yeah... I know.

You can actually make a lot of power on a 16v with the chips.

The problem is that the ignition timing requirements change drastically between 8.7 and 9.8 on the 16v engine. And with your gas quality...

Anyway... try it. Maybe you will get 300HP+ very easy.

[2fast4u]

any guys try what I am doing yet? an actual b234f+t? I would love to hear some battle stories.

[adrianpike]

any guys try what I am doing yet? an actual b234f+t? I would love to hear some battle stories.

http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=79992

[2fast4u]

thank you:). the compression ratio on a b230f is 9.8:1, which alot of guys run on there dd +t's. The b234f has a compression ratio of 10.0:1. Which in my eyes isn't too much of a difference. I think I am going to drop it in with a saab apc system and water injection and see how it goes. If/when it breaks I will tell you if it worked.;-)

[linuxman51]

Yeah, yeah... I know.

You can actually make a lot of power on a 16v with the chips.

The problem is that the ignition timing requirements change drastically between 8.7 and 9.8 on the 16v engine. And with your gas quality...

Anyway... try it. Maybe you will get 300HP+ very easy.

yes. And a quick fyi, with b230ft pistons (valve cuts will be a determining factor here) you will run closer to 9:1 cr with a 16v head on top.

The timing requirements between a 10:1 16v turbo and mine (@ 9:1) vary greatly. Compressor efficiency will also factor into this equation as well. East coast generally speaking has better fuel quality than the west coast.

[linuxman51]

thank you:). the compression ratio on a b230f is 9.8:1, which alot of guys run on there dd +t's. The b234f has a compression ratio of 10.0:1. Which in my eyes isn't too much of a difference. I think I am going to drop it in with a saab apc system and water injection and see how it goes. If/when it breaks I will tell you if it worked.;-)

yeah but there aren't too many if any stock b230f's that will spin the rollers to 240whp @ 9-10psi with a 60/63 t3 like that 16v will. Don't kid yourself the two engines might say volvo on the top but they are very different in nature.

[adrianpike]

East coast generally speaking has better fuel quality than the west coast.

That does it, I'm giving you all a 2 second penalty.

bastards.

[frpe82]

yes. And a quick fyi, with b230ft pistons (valve cuts will be a determining factor here) you will run closer to 9:1 cr with a 16v head on top.
Well... then you can disregard my first comment about it.

Then the chips would work excellent and you would not have to worry about a thing.

The timing requirements between a 10:1 16v turbo and mine (@ 9:1) vary greatly. Compressor efficiency will also factor into this equation as well. East coast generally speaking has better fuel quality than the west coast.
Yeah. I know the east coast has better gas. That is even better.

And when you say "The timing requirements between a 10:1 16v turbo and mine (@ 9:1) vary greatly.", are you not agreeing with my comment about ignition timing requirements on a high CR 16v engine then?

[linuxman51]

And when you say "The timing requirements between a 10:1 16v turbo and mine (@ 9:1) vary greatly.", are you not agreeing with my comment about ignition timing requirements on a high CR 16v engine then?

yes i was agreeing completely with your comment ;)

[linuxman51]

That does it, I'm giving you all a 2 second penalty.

bastards.

nigga race gas is race gas there aren't any stipulations for octane in the EvW

[2fast4u]

I got lost in the talk over CR. So are my odds okay at running fine with the b234f+holset because my gas is good? Before I try it while the motor is out should I throw on a thicker hg? or did we determine that's useless?

[adrianpike]

I got lost in the talk over CR. So are my odds okay at running fine with the b234f+holset because my gas is good? Before I try it while the motor is out should I throw on a thicker hg? or did we determine that's useless?

too many variables cap.

how much boost? what kind of ems? what kind of manifolds? what kind of gas? what intercooler? any water or methanol injection? what cams? what size injectors? are we assuming there's enough fuel? are we assuming you're keeping timing in check? what kind of holset? (there are more than one, you know... :roll:)

etc. etc. etc.

Hell, you could slap that holset on and run it without a wastegate if you were willing to pull so much timing combustion was occuring in the mufflers.

[linuxman51]

Hell, you could slap that holset on and run it without a wastegate if you were willing to pull so much timing combustion was occuring in the mufflers.

generally speaking this is impossible unless he's running full on coil on plug, he would have to run something like -30 degrees at around 5k with 45psi intake pressures to have a shot at avoiding knock.

I believe at that point, everything sub deck would simply cease to exist simultaneously, and his bottom end would reduce to a singularity.

[adrianpike]

generally speaking this is impossible unless he's running full on coil on plug, he would have to run something like -30 degrees at around 5k with 45psi intake pressures to have a shot at avoiding knock.

christ think of how fast traffic behind you would clear out

[volvo 4 life]

Hi

Just have a look at the side of the block -- is there a K casted in -- if so it's One. but the last weak blocks came off the line june 1988, so if its a 1989 reg and built engine -- the date is casted on the head, its alreay the stronger design.

I think you mean June of '89. I've read many posts on here that say the went to thicker rods in mid '89 so it could have thicker rods or it could just be a small rod angine.

[740Weapon]

give it to me?

If the ultimate goal is to scrap the car. i would love to grab some goodies like: the transmission, manual seats, aluminum lower A-arms, wheels?

let me know.

[2fast4u]

yes I will be parting it out when I get it. I am going to get my sheat together then buy some goodies from fred, start it, and let everyone know th good or bad.

[2fast4u]

btw, holset is an h1c with a 21cm housing. I don't know what I will be changing the housing too yet. injectors? dunno because I haven't thought about power output or my expectations yet. thanks guys for the input and help again.