COP question

[2fast4u]

I want to to run COP on my lh2.4 equipped(soon to be MS) wagon. What version should I go with? What senors do I need to buy or change and which ones can I use from the factory? Dont I have a sensor on my car already for a trigger?

[Lord Tentacle]

I want to to run COP on my lh2.4 equipped(soon to be MS) wagon. What version should I go with? What senors do I need to buy or change and which ones can I use from the factory? Dont I have a sensor on my car already for a trigger?

you can do COP in wasted spark mode using 2 VB921's with very little work

its far easier and far cheaper to just grab the hyundai spark coil and use it!

Lh2.4 only has the single VR sensor with the 60-2 wheel
you would have to combine it with the LH2.2 distro that has had 3 of the 4 teeth removed to do a sequential spark setup

MS2 on the V3 board running the MS2-extra software is the best option
though MS1 on the V3 board running MSNS-e will work for you just the same

[2fast4u]

where would I put a LH2.2 distributor? aren't they block mounted?

[MattP]

where would I put a LH2.2 distributor? aren't they block mounted?


Pull the plug in the block
cut extra teeth off exciter ring
Insert distro

[Lord Tentacle]

where would I put a LH2.2 distributor? aren't they block mounted?

on the 740 with LH2.2 its head mounted
it looks exactly like the later 2.4 distro but it has a hall sensor built into it

[2fast4u]

so I would use the 2.2 distributor for the hall sensor? so what is the use in having the 2.4 vr sensor?

I need sequential spark AND fuel. What do I need and what version of MS and why?

[2fast4u]

okay after reading up maybe I dont need sequential fuel or spark but how to you fine tune each injector? how does it know which injector to open at which time?

[Lord Tentacle]

so I would use the 2.2 distributor for the hall sensor? so what is the use in having the 2.4 vr sensor?

I need sequential spark AND fuel. What do I need and what version of MS and why?

you pull 3 out of 4 tabs off of the 2.2 sensor
this gives MS a trigger to tell it the orientation of the cam
aka when the lone tab passes the hall sensor it lets MS know its a cylinder #1

the VR sensor on the crank has the 60-2 wheel this lets MS know the exact oriantation of the crankshaft, and in combination with MS2's every tooth trigger it gives amazing resolution on firing the spark outputs
FAR greater than with just the 2.2 wheel alone

what the crank wheel cant tell MS is if its on the firing stroke for cyl 2 vs 3 or 1 vs 4

the LH2.2 dizzy cannot do anything other than distributor based ignition because it does not have any form of a reference signel to tell MS where the crank is...

to do sequntial spark you must have a cam speed sensor with atleast one more teeth than than cylinders, you could do it with a 4-1 wheel or a better 7-1 wheel

unless your running insane amounts of boost (like 30+) wasted spark is all you need, anything else is just using up usable outputs on the MS for pointless things

is this for a 16v or 8v head?

[Lord Tentacle]

okay after reading up maybe I dont need sequential fuel or spark but how to you fine tune each injector? how does it know which injector to open at which time?

injectors are batch fired
you have the option of firing all 4 at once or 2 at a time alternating
alternating seems to work pretty well

you dont fine tune injectors you get sets that are flow matched
and then you tune the amount of fuel being delivered in the VE and traget afr tables

[adrianpike]

I need sequential spark AND fuel. What do I need and what version of MS and why?

The kind that says Haltech on the side.

[2fast4u]

so wasted spark can be used for what i want. And your saying I can set bank fire (all 4 at once) or 2 at a time? Two at a time works better in my needs. This may or may not be a ITBed car. So I just want to be able to fine tune each cylinder as easily as possible. 8v head btw.

I am ready to buy MS but after reading the mega manual and DIYautotune.com's site, and glens garage and countless other forums, I still dont know which version I need. I read about all these neat features for MS2 that arent even out yet? why buy it then? I read that I just get the MSnS firmware to run spark too. Is it free? Also says I get rev limiter, 12x12 tables, water control etc etc, so why go ms2?:oops:sorry for all the questions guys but believe me if I read the mega manual again I will explode.

[The Aspirator]

V3 board, MS1-extra processor.

[coldfusion21]

you have no need to tune each injector, and when you do batch fire all your doing is is firing 2 at a time. you have no more control of the injectors firing them batch vs alternating.

[2fast4u]

V3 board, MS1-extra processor.

from what I have read the v2.2 and v3 board differences are in strength? and quality? and all I see is MS1. How does one go about getting the extra processor?:wtf:

Thanks guys for the answers.

[The Aspirator]

Strength isn't really an issue, but the V3 board is more robust. I've had a 2.2 board in my car for 3 years and probably 40-60,000 miles and it's holding up perfectly, I've never had a component go bad. The V3 board is just better laid out for adding stuff I think. It's got that sweet proto area where you can add things like boost control and more. You CAN do all the mods to the 2.2 board as well, just takes a bit more creativity.

MS2 is just a different main chip that plugs into the huge socket. You can probably buy it from anyone that sells MS stuff, DIYautotune, glens, etc.

[Lord Tentacle]

so wasted spark can be used for what i want. And your saying I can set bank fire (all 4 at once) or 2 at a time? Two at a time works better in my needs. This may or may not be a ITBed car. So I just want to be able to fine tune each cylinder as easily as possible. 8v head btw.

I am ready to buy MS but after reading the mega manual and DIYautotune.com's site, and glens garage and countless other forums, I still dont know which version I need. I read about all these neat features for MS2 that arent even out yet? why buy it then? I read that I just get the MSnS firmware to run spark too. Is it free? Also says I get rev limiter, 12x12 tables, water control etc etc, so why go ms2?:oops:sorry for all the questions guys but believe me if I read the mega manual again I will explode.

you want MS2 for what your doing
the version 3 board with the *error daughtercard cant be beat

there are LOTS of guys with the toyota 4age engine that are doing ITB's with MS
most are using TPS based (as oposed to map based) maps and are doing great with it

there is so little to gain being able to tune cylinders individualy its not worth your time
the 530/1 head flows pretty dam evenly between the ports to begin with

going with something that has sequential fuel injection and that has the capacity to tune cylinders individualy is going to cost you dearly... and for nothing that you could not gain by spending less money else where (cough 16v cough)... it may more "cool" to say your car has superturbovtecsequntialvalveflow but when I own you down the track with my shetmetal plenum I6 with batch fired injectors your voice becomes meaningless in the crowd...:-P

the only way your going to get really acurate flow with which to tune the individual cylinders is with fuel injectors at 30-40lb hour... with that capacity, if your planning on over 200hp the injectors will be at over 50% duty cycle and they will have to be open longer than the valves do ANYWAYS... making the sequntial injection sorta pointless :roll:

[2fast4u]

thanks for clearing that up. I want to run map based cuz it'll be boosted. 16v head is going on it as soon as I can figure ms out with 8v's lol. thanks guys for the help.

[Captain Bondo]

there are LOTS of guys with the toyota 4age engine that are doing ITB's with MS
most are using TPS based (as oposed to map based) maps and are doing great with it

there is so little to gain being able to tune cylinders individualy its not worth your time
the 530/1 head flows pretty dam evenly between the ports to begin with



You do still need a MAP sensor for forced induction though. If he is NA then he can use the TPS as an indicator of engine load.

Flow imbalance is not usually a port balance issue, it is a MANIFOLD flow balance issue, by the way.

The potential for improvement via individual cylinder trims (which is not the same as full sequential anyways, but since you mentioned it) will vary dependent on what manifolds are used.

The early NA K-Jet manifolds are quite good, the standard EFI manifolds are tolerable but they do lean out #2 and #3, and the NA 16V intake is terrible.

Individual cylinder trims can be a very useful feature but requires independent egt probes, one on each exhuast cylinder, to do correctly.

And you have it backwards, sequential injection is more useful with larger injectors, because at low loads the pulse time needs to be quite small, so accurately timing the injector pulse is more noticeable.

If you are saying that the control resolution when using a large injection is not high enough for it to make a difference, well then you are talking about a limitation of the FI computer itself, as I can assure you plenty of systems take advantage of sequential injection with large injectors (up to 60pph or so, after thatif you really want it all to be perfect you should be running staged injection which is another can of worms) and do it quite successfully.


I think it would be interesting to run 2 megasquirts at the same time of of the same set of sensors and do staged injection. :rofl: (only half kidding)

[2fast4u]

can both MS versions support tps and map?

[The Aspirator]

I think it would be interesting to run 2 megasquirts at the same time of of the same set of sensors and do staged injection. :rofl: (only half kidding)HA! That would be awesome. Or they need to design a "dual core processor". A plug in chip like the MS2 things, but with two processors instead. There should be enough outputs already. Hummmmmm :-P.

[Lord Tentacle]

I think it would be interesting to run 2 megasquirts at the same time of of the same set of sensors and do staged injection. :rofl: (only half kidding)

why?

MSx-e lets you do staged injection just fine
you can set it so the 2nd bank fires alternate or with the first
it works really really well... it gives you good idle/cruise with small 15-25lb injectors and then you have 50-100lb injectors for the seconds when you get into the real power