PDA

View Full Version : Volvo Automatic Discussion (part 2)


Pages : [1] 2

linuxman51
12-17-2007, 09:05 PM
We'll refer to this as "beating a dead horse", since the first inception of this was called "polishing a turd"

Referencing this thread of course: http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=64408&highlight=polishing+turd
Started by Aaron(sp?).

At any rate, as some/many/none of you know, i've yet again ventured back to the venerable, but ostensibly weak volvo automatic.
Namely the AW71.

Since the writing of this article, a few neat hacks have become popular, the somewhat legendary valve body hack, which comes back into and out of fame (and has been around longer than Aaron and probably myself were members of this forum), but most notably the 'Accumulator mod', which essentially locks the accumulators to reduce shift time (and both combine to really reduce shift time).

Building on what aaron has started, lets open this discussion on a slightly more technical note, and start from the get go with the box as a whole and see if we can't work forward from there.
The ATSG guide for most of the pertinent A series transmissions can be found online here: http://www.pbase.com/sam3481/aw_manual
There is an older volvo specific guide which can be found elsewhere with a cursory search on the forum, and its host might (hopefully will) grace us with his presence and insight.

After spending some time thinking about this issue, some degree of trial and error and mild success, I've decided to commit a little more money to my own project in an attempt to see what can be done to get one of these transmissions to hang on to some serious power for at least a little while. Since I personally tend to spend most of my volvo quality time either in the driveway or at the drag strip, I'm not concerned in the least with longevity, within reasonable bounds (and I'm also a fair bit ahead of most in the power output side of life, so I would imagine what can take my level of use and abuse for a little while will serve many others for quite some time).

So let's start with the stipulations and reasons therefore (and i'm going to borrow heavily from aaron's thread. Consider it a prerequisite for this thread, so get to reading it and come back):
1) I would rather not increase line pressure unless we have to, and then, only a moderate amount. Reason: Cavalier increases in the operating pressure will blow the seals out in the clutch engagement pistons, and this would be considered counter-productive. Besides, higher pressures beget more strain on the pump and more power robbed from the engine, and enevitably this will result in more heat. Heat is a bad thing.
2) While it would be really nice to use "all volvo" stuff, I'd much rather be smart about it, if we determine that we can stuff the C2 carrier from a higher output unit in the volvo unit, lets run with it.
3) We're not getting into full swaps here, the goal is a unit with volvo dimensions and similar linkage that "bolts in".
4) Valve body is fair game, I disagree with aaron on this, I don't feel that flow modifications inside the VB will greatly increase the load on the pump (aside from shimming the hell out of the main pressure relief valve).

Brainstorming:
Aaron mentions in his thread something about slow disengaugement/engagement of the brake clutch packs, I'm thinking something along the opposite lines, i.e. weaker/less springs for the main clutch disengaugement. The idea here being that more springs resist pressure and slow the engagement of the clutch and simultaneously reduce the overall clamping pressure being applied by the engagement piston..

Alternatively, by swapping springs with the brake clutches, perhaps we can kill two birds with one stone. Thoughts comments?

I've been digging through the power flow diagrams for the aw-7X transmissions (oh by the way, if you haven't already figured out they're all essentially the same, minus some key differences in friction material and perhaps amount of friction material i.e. number of clutches, you needa go back and study some more).

Some background info from the green book and nomenclature (from now on lets try and keep with whats in the ATSG/Green manual, since there isn't a "gear set" per-se, just a series of locked and unlocked planetary gears, however I realize that generalizations will be needed for the sake of sane discussion, but when dealing with specifics, lets try and keep to the manual).

Primary Clutches:
C0, C1, C2.
C0 can be thought of as "overdrive", however this is only partially true: the only 'gear' that C0 is NOT locked up is overdrive,C1 and C2 will likely be the focus of most of our discussions.

Brakes:
As stated in the previous thread these are basically the same thing as brake bands in other automagics.
B0 can also be thought of as "overdrive" as it locks when C0 unlocks to overdrive the transmission.

There are two Free wheel locks, these are basically one way clutches, and are subjected to most of the brutality the transmission will see, from the green book, when in first second and third "the highest power is transmitted by the freewheel". So, also fair game.

I will attach an image here when I find a suitable diagram/get my scanner back to show the approximate locations of the above components in the transmission.

So. Open. Lets talk. And I don't care about a gm transmission, if I want one I'll swap in a t56.

***NEW INFO***
We can narrow down changes from the AW372 and 71:
C0 Has two clutches instead of one. Swap the uber thick steel for a steel and clutch.
C1 and C2 are identical to the aw71
B0 has one LESS clutch than the volvo (however I think this is more to discourage towing in OD)
B1 has an extra clutch, this requires a different clutch carrier than that which is found in the volvo. It is interchangeable. You want the part number, go dig one out of a jy your damn self.
While you're there get the C2 carrier, the volvo one doesn't have enough depth capacity.
B2 is the same
B3 is the same
The middle/rear planetary is different, I believe this is more related to a lower ratio for towing than a strength issue, however if one wishes to use this, you will also get the privilege of swapping out tailshafts or making a custom driveshaft. (one is far easier than the other)

The lock up and non-lockup pumps are different.. the lockup pump is larger internally. The ports are the same on both stators, however you CANNOT use a non locking converter with a lockup pump.

Regarding the difference between the aw70 and the aw71. This is an oft debated topic that no one seemed to have any really hard info about. Well here's (most) of the skinny:
Different pump and OD housing (at least up until 88/89). The pump 'intake' is bigger than that of the 71/72/43 pumps, however the OD housing flares out to accomodate this, the reality of the issue is that due to design (either poor or other) the feed for B0 just 'happens' to come up in the middle of what would be the intake. So the net result is a reverse funnel of sorts. Not sure if this is a good thing or not, or if machining out the intake to flow more would be of any help at all.
Overdrive brakes are smaller on the aw70(same size as the other clutches), B2 piston has 8 fewer springs than b2 in the 71.
B1 piston has the same number of springs.


The valve body & governor are likely to be a bit different as the aw70 runs different line pressure than the 71. The other internals back to B2 are the same (same count, etc).
Externally the valve body, case, etc are the same, so the usual aw71 mods apply to the aw70, and it seems likely that the gov and vb swap would result in one effectively having an aw71. If there are spring differences in the clutches and brakes, its not immediately apparent, I might take a closer look later this week.


The gear ratios between the aw's of this series (basically the A4X) are controlled by the size of the planetary gears & these are all pretty much interchangeable, provided you get the correct carrier with them.

Failure points are somewhat random so far in the transmissions i've examined, the most common seems to be B2 and B3, with C1 and C2 following closely, however I've also found a destroyed B3 pack, and know of at least one instance where B0 was starting to let go.
C0 for some reason doesn't seem to be failure prone, however I would not hedge any bets on this. it might be possible to retrofit a different shell into C0 to get more than two clutches with reasonably sized steels in it, that will, however, be an exercise for the reader.

As for differences between the 71 and 72, it would appear on the surface that the governor is the same, the valve body will certainly be different to accommodate the lockup converter (among other things it has an extra valve).

linuxman51
12-17-2007, 09:08 PM
here's a quick one, anyone know why there would be a "spacer" ring in the front clutch assembly?
http://www.pbase.com/sam3481/image/74556317.jpg
(middle of the image, the 'thinner snap ring')

After close inspection of the guts on the table, one can conclude that:
The clutch can pass in between (assuming it doesn't get hung up) however while the snap ring should be thinner than the clutch itself it might still act as a stopper. Its on the wrong side of the closest steel band to serve as a stopper for the engagement piston, and regardless of clutch engagement or not, the rear clutch hub will spin at the speed of the front clutch hub since its locked in place with a snap ring and the tangs.

linuxman51
12-17-2007, 10:37 PM
Info from the green book regarding Valve body components and their (basic) functions: (picture to come later, for now refer to the ATSG link, pages 64-67 if you're looking at the file names)
Gear selector valve: Operated directly by the gear selector mechanism, the valve determines the position (P,N,D, etc) in which the gearbox operates. The valve is supplied with oil at line pressure and distributes it to the appropriate passages according to the position selected. The governor is also supplied from the gear selector valve. The pressure used in the actual gear shifting operation (i.e. engage clutches and brakes) is low when then load on the gearbox is low, and vice versa.

Primary regulator valve: This modifies the line pressure to suit different operating conditions, For example, a higher pressure is required in the R position and when accelerating.

By-pass valve: protects the oil cooler from excessive pressure (a bleed off)

Relief valve: located immediately downstream from the oil pump, the relief valve opens if the line pressure becomes excessive

Secondary Regulator valve: Controls torque converter pressure.

Throttle Valve: Supplied with oil at line pressure and converts this into throttle pressure, which varies with the amount of throttle. This in turn actuates the shift valves in combination with the governor pressure.

Kickdown Valve: amplifies the throttle pressure by opening the kickdown circuit, allows shifting to take place at higher speeds than normal.

Governor modulator valve: Operates the cutback valve. In later models where the cutback valve has been replaced with a plug, supplies pressure directly to the cutback valve.

Cutback valve: This is supplied with governed pressure. The purpose of this valve is to reduce the throttle pressure, and, as a result, the line pressure at normal and high speeds. The advantages include a reduction in the power required to drive the oil pump and improved quality of gear shifting (read: it bleeds pressure off and softens the shift. possible point of modification)

Shift valve 1-2: controls the engagement of first and second gears, based on the throttle pressure acting on one end and governor pressure acting on the other. The center port supplies fluid to the planetary drive brakes which control 1st and second gears. The gear engages on the manner in which the throttle pressure and gov. pressure act on the valve.

Downshift valve, manual 2-1: When the gear selector is moved to '1' one end of downshift valve 2-1 is supplied with a modulated line pressure. Shift valve 1-2 is thereby moved to its bottom position, preventing an upshift. n the course of its travel, the downshift valve also opens a passage which admits line pressure to apply brake B3 (this affords engine braking in '1'). If on the other hand, the car is in 2nd when the selector is moved to '1' downshift will take place only when the modulated line pressure is higher than the governor pressure in shift valve 1-2.

Modulator valve, manual 2-1: operative only when gear selector is in '1', performs two functions: Reduces line pressure to brake B3, affording gentler engine braking, and operating in combination with downshift valve 2-1, it performs downshifting from 2nd to 1st with the selector in position 1, while also preventing downshifting at an excessively high speed.

Shift valve 2-3: The valve controls the engagement of 2nd and 3rd gears. Throttle pressure (which varies with the throttle opening) acts on one end of the valve and governor pressure acts on the other. A port in the center (sound familiar? similar to 1-2) supplies fluid to the planetary train brakes controlling 2nd and 3rd gears. The gear engaged depends on the manner in which the throttle pressure and governor pressure actuate the valve.

Downshift valve, manual 3-2: Line pressure is supplied to one end of the valve when position 2 is selected, moving shift valve 2-3 to its bottom position and preventing and upshift to 3rd. If the car is in 3rd when 2 is selected, downshift will take place regardless of the throttle opening or speed of the car.

Modulator valve, manual 3-2: The valve reduces the operating pressure to brake b1 for gentler engine braking in 2nd gear

Detent regulator valve: Located upstream of the kickdown valve, the detent regulator valve is supplied continuously with line pressure. In this position, it reduces the line pressure to a suitable circuit pressure which is then used by the kickdown valve to control the shift valves and downshift valve 4-3

Shift valve 3-4: Throttle pressure (which varies with throttle opening) is applied to one end of the valve and an opposing governor pressure (which varies with the speed of the car) to the other. Line pressure is supplied to clutch C0, and brake B0 through two ports in the middle of the valve, the position of the valve (or, in effect, the balance between the governor and throttle pressures) determining which is pressurized.

Downshift valve, manual 4-3: The valve is either operated manually by the switch on the gear selector lever or automatically by the kickdown function. Under these conditions the valve is supplied with system pressure or kickdown pressure, as appropriate, at one end. In manual operation (by means of the solenoid valve), the downshift valve moves shift valve 3-4 to its bottom position (i.e. 4th gear is disengaged). The downshift valve remains in this position until the solenoid valve is deenergized. In a kickdown shift, on the other hand, the valve is held in the bottom position only as long as the kickdown pressure is greater than the governor pressure. The latter acts in opposition to the kickdown pressure through shift valve 3-4.

Downshift D-2 control valve, manual: The valve controls the point at which 2nd gear is engaged when downshifting manually from position D to position 2, ensuring that this takes place in stages from 4th to 3rd to 2nd. Line pressure (throttled) acts on one end of the valve and the operating pressure for the clutch C0 on the other. A port in the middle of the valve controls the flow of fluid to downshift valve 3-2. The flow to downshift 3-2 is a function of the balance between the line pressure and clutch C0 operating pressure on the valve spool.

Control valve, rear clutch, reverse: Clutch C2 is provided with two piston surfaces. While the smaller surface is sufficient to enter reverse when 3rd gear is engaged, both must be used to prevent the clutch from slipping when in position 'R'. The function of the control valve is to ensure gentle engagement of reverse by the application of the rear clutch in stages.

Control valve, rear brake, reverse: The function of the valve is to ensure gentle engagement of reverse. This is achieved by application of brake B3 in stages. The brake is equipped with two hydraulic pistons, each with individual ports. Consisting essentially of a restriction in the supply to the pistons, the valve distributes the oil flow between the ports. Since the front piston receives a higher flow than the rear piston, it receives full operating pressure before the latter, prolonging the operation of B3.

Lock-up signal Valve: Line pressure is supplied to one end of the valve and governor pressure to the other. Two line pressure inlets are provided, one for selector positions 1-3 and one for selector position 4. when 4th gear is engaged and the governor pressure (i.e. speed of the car) increases, oil flows at line pressure from the control valve to the changeover valve.

lock-up changeover valve: The valve is actuated by oil at line pressure from the signal valve. Opening the valve reverses the fluid flow from the torque converter, operating the lock-up clutch plate and activating the lock-up function.

Accumulator pistons: each of the circuits serving the front clutch, rear clutch, and brake B2 incorporates an accumulator piston. The pistons are installed in parallel with the C1, C2 and B2 circuits. When supplying operating pressure to B2, for example, the fluid flow is divided between the brake piston and the accumulator piston. As a result, braking takes place gently when the brake is first applied and full opperating pressure is developed only when the accumulator piston is full. This ensures a smooth increase in operating pressure, resulting in gentler shifting.

Solenoid valve: Disengagement of 4th gear is controlled by the solenoid valve. Disengagement is performed manually using the switch on the gear selector lever. When the switch is operated, the solenoid valve (which is supplied with constant line pressure) relieves the pressure to downshift 4-3, moving the 3-4 to its bottom position and disengaging overdrive. The valve does not return to its idle position until another signal is received from the switch on the gear selector or the igntion is switched off.

Oil pressure switch, kickdown inhibitor (europe only): basically an oil pressure switch that turns on and off the overdrive soleniod.

AnthonyH
12-18-2007, 01:00 AM
:cool: Watching closely... :cool:

I'm wondering how the governor works, how it can be modded for shifts. I like the idea of Toyota 2L-t box I have now, but it shifts too very early! The only gear I can rev the engine is 3rd or 4th.

Wondering what I can do the the shift valve springs... wondering if they need more/less tension to have it stay within gear longer.

Edit: Another option I am looking into is the 1g-gte twin-turbo Supra or a 2L-te Diesel turbo van transmission. (The 2L-T is not electronically controlled, it needs to be the electronic fuel injection diesel pump one, similar to the KZ engine. The newer 1KZ engines use a a340le instead.) These are also aw71, but with electronic control. This may put me into a better possition of controling shifts.

thelostartof
12-18-2007, 01:22 AM
for the governor inside of the tail shaft from what i have heard/seen if you want it to shift @ lower RPM you run a heavier setup, i posted some specs a while ago but i have 4 of them here with each one having a different weight. if you want it to shift higher you need to lighten it.

this means remove meat from the steel insert on one side and also the aluminum on the other side so that it is balanced

I would try to make more sense but I am to tired

linuxman51
12-18-2007, 08:28 AM
:cool: Watching closely... :cool:

I'm wondering how the governor works, how it can be modded for shifts. I like the idea of Toyota 2L-t box I have now, but it shifts too very early! The only gear I can rev the engine is 3rd or 4th.

Wondering what I can do the the shift valve springs... wondering if they need more/less tension to have it stay within gear longer.

Edit: Another option I am looking into is the 1g-gte twin-turbo Supra or a 2L-te Diesel turbo van transmission. (The 2L-T is not electronically controlled, it needs to be the electronic fuel injection diesel pump one, similar to the KZ engine. The newer 1KZ engines use a a340le instead.) These are also aw71, but with electronic control. This may put me into a better possition of controling shifts.

1jz auto should be a a340le, same as what's found in a 960. the bellhousing isn't interchangeable (directly) between an a43/44 and the a340

500dollar744ti
12-18-2007, 09:12 AM
has anyone considered using a aw30-40 behind a redblock using a modified 960 bell housing?

AnthonyH
12-18-2007, 09:41 AM
Yes, the 1jz is a 30-40LE, but with a kick-down cable to control the pressure.

I'm looking at a trannie from a 1G-gte... 80's supra. These came with a aw71 style gearbox, but with electronic control.

But a 1Jz or 2Jz TT Trannie would be real nice behind a red-block, as these transmission cost about 100$ here in Thailand directly from the Japanese wreckers. (too lazy to mod the bell-housing, so I will stick to the aw71 style.)

linuxman51
12-18-2007, 10:13 AM
Yes, the 1jz is a 30-40LE, but with a kick-down cable to control the pressure.

I'm looking at a trannie from a 1G-gte... 80's supra. These came with a aw71 style gearbox, but with electronic control.

But a 1Jz or 2Jz TT Trannie would be real nice behind a red-block, as these transmission cost about 100$ here in Thailand directly from the Japanese wreckers. (too lazy to mod the bell-housing, so I will stick to the aw71 style.)


interesting, whats the power rating on the 1g-gte? Sounds like it would have an a43DE or something similar, got any more info on this particular box?

AnthonyH
12-18-2007, 10:29 AM
Nop, no info at all, all I know is the trannie is rated 220hp standard from the factory. And people here put maybe ~350hp on a stock trannie with no problem. So I think it may be a good choice.

All I know is it has 3 solenoids, 2-shifts 1-lockup, line pressure is still controlled via throttle cable.

linuxman51
12-18-2007, 10:35 AM
got this from a wiki, looking around a little more
A43DE

Four speed automatic with lockup torque converter and electronic controls

Applications:

* 1982-1987 Toyota Cressida
* 1983-1986 Celica Supra
* 1992-up Suzuki Sidekick (4L30E)
* 1992-1998 Volvo 960/S90 (AW 30-43LE)


that sound about right?

According to another one, the 1G-GTE was coupled with the A340E

500dollar744ti
12-18-2007, 10:43 AM
got this from a wiki, looking around a little more


that sound about right?

many, many other vehicles as well... my 1987 jeep has the AW30-40LE (2.80, 1.53, 1.00 & .75 ratios respectively) and the trans controller is a silly little box that only needs a tps input, brake switch and neutral switch to run the trans.. it also has a "power/comfort" thingy which is just a tripped lead on the TCM with extended shiftpoints. it has lockup torque converter and the 2wd jeep version should be identical to the 960 trans minus the bellhousing. if i ever tried to run a 30-40le i would use the jeep box to control it for ease of integration with megasquirt. the 30-40LE is very interchangable because the trans is almost always a 3 piece setup with bellhousing/trans/tailshaft housing... i have all the info needed to control the jeep version of it which i would assume is the simplist map of control compared to volvo/toyota control boxes as they are probably integrated with other modules

edit:// just looked it up, the jeep aw-4 (30-40LE) has a 450lb/ft torque rating from the factory :wtf:

more info at my jeep forums
http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=273048
of course written by the man with the turbo 4.0 i-6

awshifting.com also makes standalone stuff to control a340/aw4/aw30-40 setups for performance.

AnthonyH
12-18-2007, 10:58 AM
Umm... the 7M of that era are coupled with the A340E, but all 1G-gte I see from the Jap wreckers are attached to a aw71 look-alike, but is electronic controlled.

These older ECT from Toyotas are very easy to use, it uses the TPS signal, water-temp, throttle cable, and its own speed-sensor.

Something I will look into in April when I have time. I will try to mate the Volvo engine to a 2JZ auto trannie, although it uses a line-pressure solenoid, but rumor says it has more clutch packs than a 1jz. We'll see.
(I got too many projects on hand... :-P My b21 busted on lastweek's track-day managed to drive the 300mile home though, no time and $ to drop the V12 engine yet, so a 230+ h-beam rods will go in mated to a M90, 7button clutch to drive around it for now. The amazon is getting a b230 standing straight + aw71, and the 144 is getting the 2.5L b230+16V :lol: Too many project, too little $ and time. Rightnow I'm job-less. I'm getting paid again in Feb. So things will be moving well after that. )

PetesDustyVolvo
12-18-2007, 11:19 AM
Toyota previas have AW71LE (electrically controlled lockup) as well...

and I can vouch that the tranny in a 960 has its own speed sensor. I had to replace one once.

edited for clarification: not just the lockup in the AW71LE is electrically controlled, everything is...

500dollar744ti
12-18-2007, 11:23 AM
Toyota previas have AW71LE (electrically controlled lockup) as well...

and I can vouch that the tranny in a 960 has its own speed sensor. I had to replace one once.

jeep has it's own speed sensor as well, they all should though.

linuxman51
12-18-2007, 11:35 AM
the 2JZ-GTE auto box is a a341E, and it has one more clutch and steel in the C2 (i think). The guts will swap into the older a340 case, so I'm wondering if the same will swap into the A43D/E/L etc. The valve body more than likely won;t but it'd be the guts that'd be nice to have.

linuxman51
12-18-2007, 11:46 AM
an incomplete list of vehicles with transmissions from the same family:
Isuzu impulse 1987-1989 (turbo and NA) 03-72L / A45DL
Amigo 1992-1994 (03-72L /A44DL)
Isuzu pickup 88-95 (03-72)

Dodge:
D50 (also known as Ram 50)

MITSU:
87-90 Van/wagon – A44DL
87-89 Pickup (mighty max) A44D
87-94 Montero A44D/DL


Mazda:
99-up Miata A44Dl



Toyota:
Van (a44dl/a45dl)
Older cressidas (a44dl)

PetesDustyVolvo
12-18-2007, 12:08 PM
I know for a fact that the toyota previas had it too,

and i'm 90% sure that the toyota automatic 2wd pickups and 4runners with the 22re had it as well

linuxman51
12-18-2007, 12:15 PM
4runners got a variant in the early years (89-91), and I think the previa is included in the "Vans". Like I said, its an incomplete list ;)

500dollar744ti
12-18-2007, 01:41 PM
consider this: aw-71 does not have a removable bellhousing, 30-40/43LE does however, also consider that the toyota supra auto probably has the same aw bolt pattern to bellhousing as the 960 trans right? well here is where it gets interesting... the old aw-55 (borg warner bw55) used in old 240's does have a seperate bellhousing, a seperate bellhousing that shares the trans bolt pattern with an aw30-43 and the engine bolt pattern with a redblock... see pictures below. someone should unbolt an bw55 converter housing and see if it will bolt to a supra trans, or even 960 trans... then we might be getting somewhere in the usable junkyard parts department.

http://xs222.xs.to/xs222/07512/bw55.jpg.xs.jpg (http://xs.to/xs.php?h=xs222&d=07512&f=bw55.jpg)
http://xs222.xs.to/xs222/07512/30-43LE.jpg.xs.jpg (http://xs.to/xs.php?h=xs222&d=07512&f=30-43LE.jpg)

any thoughts? has the idea been discussed before?

thelostartof
12-18-2007, 01:44 PM
the AW71 bellhousing CAN be swapped, you just remove the pump and first gear set and swap those over into the other trans

500dollar744ti
12-18-2007, 01:47 PM
the AW71 bellhousing CAN be swapped, you just remove the pump and first gear set and swap those over into the other trans

right but the pump is integral to the housing and would be useless if trying to use a trans different than another aw7x right?

thelostartof
12-18-2007, 02:27 PM
but if you were to use one with a different bellhousing .. say one off a dodge, swap on the AW71 bellhousing onto that trans core, use the clutches out of the stronger trans, and the better pump of the two, and then use whatever TC will work

PetesDustyVolvo
12-18-2007, 03:54 PM
the old aw-55 (borg warner bw55) used in old 240's does have a seperate bellhousing, a seperate bellhousing that shares the trans bolt pattern with an aw30-43 and the engine bolt pattern with a redblock...

...

any thoughts? has the idea been discussed before?

No I don't believe it has been discussed here and I think that is very interesting.

I also wonder if the 960 driveshaft would work. Probably not....


edit:

Is that the same ultra-slush box that came in 144s? Does the B21/23/23x family have the same transmission bolt pattern as a B18/20 ?

linuxman51
12-18-2007, 04:17 PM
right but the pump is integral to the housing and would be useless if trying to use a trans different than another aw7x right?

no the pump is not integral to the housing, the aw7X just has the pump and OD assembly in the "bellhousing".

500dollar744ti
12-18-2007, 04:22 PM
no the pump is not integral to the housing, the aw7X just has the pump and OD assembly in the "bellhousing".

ah sorry integral is the wrong word i was trying to say inside and expand my vocab at the same time but i failed. :-P so can anyone come up with torque ratings for the aw7x variants? and after polishing a turd, you still have just that, a polished turd, so would any of the variants be worth the trouble...?

No I don't believe it has been discussed here and I think that is very interesting.
I also wonder if the 960 driveshaft would work. Probably not....

edit:
Is that the same ultra-slush box that came in 144s? Does the B21/23/23x family have the same transmission bolt pattern as a B18/20 ?

no need to mod a 960 driveshaft, you should be able to flip-flop parts and bolt the bw55 tailshaft housing on there...

that slushbox 3spd came in those cars as well as 240's up until like '83 or so, it was the predecessor to the aw-7x, has a redblock boltpattern... b20/b23x have the same bolt pattern anyway.

borg warner morphed into aisin warner... before the bw55 was phased out it was renamed the aw-55 :)

i don't particularly plan on swapping in an auto (any time soon) i am just trying to bring ideas to the table and i KNOW someone here has a bw55 laying around to play with the bellhousing. at least a bw55 bellhousing is a closer match to a housing that may be adapted to use a different trans... just trying to think outside of the box and bring ideas to the table..

edit:// maybe barry240 has some good input?

Renny_D
12-18-2007, 04:32 PM
Looking at this it seems like reducing the governer pressure would net us the later shifts and the ability to down shift from a higher rpm (not just thinking drag racing here) without raising line pressure too much. That should also mean that when manually shifting the shift would happen when you tell it to. So less line pressure - more clutches would be the best option. On a related question what would keep us from using one of the b&m type shifters on our cars? Do GMs shift in a very different way? I know when doing the shift kit in those it's just removing a couple of balls and it's a fully manual valve body - not more automatic shifting up and down. What would it take to make our trannies do that?



Thanks
Renny

linuxman51
12-18-2007, 05:00 PM
ah sorry integral is the wrong word i was trying to say inside and expand my vocab at the same time but i failed. :-P so can anyone come up with torque ratings for the aw7x variants? and after polishing a turd, you still have just that, a polished turd, so would any of the variants be worth the trouble...?


Call it what you will, the supra (a34X, actually) auto trans is a beast, and has a higher rating than any of the gearboxes that are currently popular swaps. To get a gm transmission that will perform and do what you'd want it to do with some assurance that it'll last you're looking at spending a large amount of money to adapt something that may or may not last any longer than intelligent modifications to what can already drop in, so to speak.


no need to mod a 960 driveshaft, you should be able to flip-flop parts and bolt the bw55 tailshaft housing on there...
that slushbox 3spd came in those cars as well as 240's up until like '83 or so, it was the predecessor to the aw-7x, has a redblock boltpattern... b20/b23x have the same bolt pattern anyway.
borg warner morphed into aisin warner... before the bw55 was phased out it was renamed the aw-55 :)
i don't particularly plan on swapping in an auto (any time soon) i am just trying to bring ideas to the table and i KNOW someone here has a bw55 laying around to play with the bellhousing. at least a bw55 bellhousing is a closer match to a housing that may be adapted to use a different trans... just trying to think outside of the box and bring ideas to the table..


interesting, might have to scare one of those up and see. I would imagine the bolt pattern on the cases didn't change too greatly, wouldn't make sense from a manufacturing standpoint.


Looking at this it seems like reducing the governer pressure would net us the later shifts and the ability to down shift from a higher rpm (not just thinking drag racing here) without raising line pressure too much. That should also mean that when manually shifting the shift would happen when you tell it to. So less line pressure - more clutches would be the best option. On a related question what would keep us from using one of the b&m type shifters on our cars? Do GMs shift in a very different way? I know when doing the shift kit in those it's just removing a couple of balls and it's a fully manual valve body - not more automatic shifting up and down. What would it take to make our trannies do that?


This is definitly one thing to look at & something i've been pondering for a few days now. I would imagine one could make an aw71 a manual valve bodied transmission, but might in the process lose overdrive. Not so bad for a drag only car, but miserable for one thats driven around town.

500dollar744ti
12-18-2007, 05:06 PM
Call it what you will, the supra (a34X, actually) auto trans is a beast, and has a higher rating than any of the gearboxes that are currently popular swaps. To get a gm transmission that will perform and do what you'd want it to do with some assurance that it'll last you're looking at spending a large amount of money to adapt something that may or may not last any longer than intelligent modifications to what can already drop in, so to speak.

that is what i am saying though, a supra trans is a aw30-40 variant, not an aw71 variant... it is specifically extremely close to the 960 trans and according to wiki, they are the same trans.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_A_transmission#A340E_.2830-40LE.29

so therefore not a turd and i am trying to think of ways one might be able to mate it to a redblock.

i.e. use a bw55 bellhousing on the A341e late model supra turbo trans, figure out the torque converter setup needed, use bw55 tail housing and bolt to redblock.

linuxman51
12-18-2007, 05:18 PM
that is what i am saying though, a supra trans is a aw30-40 variant, not a aw71 variant... it is specifically extremely close to the 960 trans and according to wiki, they are the same trans.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_A_transmission#A340E_.2830-40LE.29

so therefore not a turd and i am trying to think of ways one might be able to mate it to a redblock.

i.e. use a bw55 bellhousing on the A341e late model supra turbo trans, figure out the torque converter setup needed, use bw55 tail housing and bolt to redblock.

or just get a 960 box, put the extra clutch thats in the supra turbo trans in it, and rock out ;)
While you're in there you could replace the stock frictions with some nice stuff.

500dollar744ti
12-18-2007, 05:23 PM
or just get a 960 box, put the extra clutch thats in the supra turbo trans in it, and rock out ;)
While you're in there you could replace the stock frictions with some nice stuff.

right, exactly... and if you figure out a torque converter setup and use the bw55 bellhousing to mate to redblock you'd be in business!

control it using something like the poi's method and it would be killer.

linuxman51
12-18-2007, 05:41 PM
From what i've been able to gather thus far, they all seem to share the same style of pump and converter (if not the same pump period). I'll be getting an a43e(i think) from my supra buddy this weekend to desr...err examine closely :cough:. And I'm trying to put a hit out on fancy clutches and steels, will post more info as it becomes available (price, availability, etc). This would be in addition to the raybestos stuff.

500dollar744ti
12-18-2007, 05:52 PM
not to mention there is soooo much aftermarket **** available to beef up the aw30-40le... even the jeep guys claim kits that will stand in excess of 650lb/ft torque.

linuxman51
12-18-2007, 05:56 PM
not to mention there is soooo much aftermarket **** available to beef up the aw30-40le... even the jeep guys claim kits that will stand in excess of 650lb/ft torque.

I wouldn't say there's a ton, but once we can nail all of this down it will certainly provide a guided means to an end. I think they might all share the same clutch design as well, more on this in a bit.

500dollar744ti
12-18-2007, 06:21 PM
here is some expensive **** but a high stall or something may be worth it.

http://www.importperformancetrans.com/toyotaauto.shtml

level 10 performance also sells beefier clutch kits.

thelostartof
12-18-2007, 06:59 PM
lvl10 stuff is a joke

and high stalls are a must .. I love mine

Renny_D
12-18-2007, 08:37 PM
Mike did you ever get anywhere with the group buy of the high stall converters? I think a high stall with a lock up would be great to have. Also was that manual valve body you had toast? Would be interesting to open it up and look to see where the differences are between that and a stock unit. I might give us a clue as to what was changed to make it a manual valvebody.

Thanks

Renny
PS how did it go with Gus and the holset.

thelostartof
12-18-2007, 08:44 PM
I still have their number but I have been to busy to follow up ... so unless someone else wants to deal with them


valve body is on my current trans and is just a lvl10 VB so

IceCold4x4
12-18-2007, 08:52 PM
i thought the supra auto tranny was a 5spd?

linuxman51
12-18-2007, 09:06 PM
i thought the supra auto tranny was a 5spd?

nawp

PetesDustyVolvo
12-18-2007, 09:20 PM
4 speed + lockup so it has 5 "ratios"

6 "ratios" because it can also lockup in 3rd gear

MikeSr.
12-18-2007, 10:18 PM
What about those Raybestos "Blue Plate" clutch packs?

linuxman51
12-19-2007, 01:32 AM
What about those Raybestos "Blue Plate" clutch packs?

always an option, i'm just investigating another option at the moment.

thelostartof
12-19-2007, 08:15 AM
one thing I did notice about my lvl10 VB, the 2-3 shift is interesting. if you go w0t and let it downshift into 2nd it will not do the 2-3 shift. if you downshift it manually into 2nd and go w0t and then manually upshift into 3rd then it wil do the 2-3 shift .... very odd

linuxman51
12-19-2007, 08:33 AM
one thing I did notice about my lvl10 VB, the 2-3 shift is interesting. if you go w0t and let it downshift into 2nd it will not do the 2-3 shift. if you downshift it manually into 2nd and go w0t and then manually upshift into 3rd then it wil do the 2-3 shift .... very odd

sounds like you've got a sticking valve somewhere in there

thelostartof
12-19-2007, 09:12 AM
Joy, I think when I get around to doing the Accumulator mod it would be a good time to junk this lvl10 VB


So do ya'll want to send me a VB to use in my car since you have all of the books and know more about rebuilding them than i do

linuxman51
12-19-2007, 09:20 AM
Joy, I think when I get around to doing the Accumulators mod it would be a good time to junk this lvl10 VB


So do ya'll want to send me a VB to use in my car since you have all of the books and know more about rebuilding them than i do

could just clean it out so it works right ;) or mail it over and i'll compare it against a stock one to see what they did and what they were after.

thelostartof
12-19-2007, 09:40 AM
but how do i drive the car w/o a VB ....

linuxman51
12-19-2007, 09:49 AM
but how do i drive the car w/o a VB ....

you pull it clean it reinstall it. it doesn't take that long, besides, i thought you didn't daily-d the fast car

poulson01
12-19-2007, 09:54 AM
Looking at this it seems like reducing the governer pressure would net us the later shifts and the ability to down shift from a higher rpm (not just thinking drag racing here) without raising line pressure too much. That should also mean that when manually shifting the shift would happen when you tell it to. So less line pressure - more clutches would be the best option. On a related question what would keep us from using one of the b&m type shifters on our cars? Do GMs shift in a very different way? I know when doing the shift kit in those it's just removing a couple of balls and it's a fully manual valve body - not more automatic shifting up and down. What would it take to make our trannies do that?



Thanks
Renny

Hey guys. I don't know, off hand, what the smaller snap ring in C-0 is for. I'll think it over but I honestly don't remember seeing it in there.
The B&M shift kit is a couple of stock gaskets, a spring or two, a drill bit and a set of instructions. I installed many back in the day. They don't make it a manual valve body though. That's a way more expensive mod. The reversed pattern manual valve body is a custom B&M part. Not a modded GM. The B&M shift kit firms up shifts and the downshift lockout gets defeated. The the tranny hack was my halfassed adaptation of this to the AW71. Just remove the check balls for the apply devices you want to apply faster. Very simple.

I have no doubt that the planetaries and clutches can be tweaked to handle the power you guys are talking about. The one way clutches won't hold up though.
As I recall, the one way clutches are like roller bearings with the inner races ramped (kinda like a saw blade). The rollers get jammed against the outer race (still using the bearing analogy) and the clutch locks. Spin it the other way and the clutch overruns. Think about the physics of what's going on and it's no wonder, I've found those rollers shot through the inner case like bullets.

Edit: No one's looking at the 4HP-22?

thelostartof
12-19-2007, 10:07 AM
you pull it clean it reinstall it. it doesn't take that long, besides, i thought you didn't daily-d the fast car

well if you want me to send it to you to check it out .... I will be w/o it for a bit

and actually I am insane and I DD the fast car. lack of heater makes me want to take the wagon but the sedan is just so much more fun

almost up to 200k miles on the body, and a little over 10k on the rebuilt trans

BDKR
12-19-2007, 10:19 AM
I actually saw this yesterday, but had no end of bugs in my code (self introduced of course :roll: ) to deal with.

BTW, Kenny and Renny: I replied to your PM's.

The above out of the way, why has nobody mentioned the 372? Since it's starting out with a higher torque rating, isn't it safe to assume that with various mods it would certainly have greater potential then the 7x trannies?

The nice things is that they use the exact same cases so an AW7x bellhousing will bolt right up. I have an AW70 bellhousing on mine. 5 bolts go through the housing and into the case externally and 5 more go through the pump and into the case internally. JUST BE BLOODY CLEAN AND CAREFUL!!!! In spite of my best efforts, I'm still not convinced I didn't bung something up. Auto trannys are amazing for their complexity!

AnthonyH: There is one more thing that has had me concerned. The depth of the bellhousings (the portion where the tqc will live) between my KM148 and AW70 was considerable! At least 1/2 an inch. Are the 372/KM148 tqc's bigger? You also mentioned guys using AW71 tqc's. Any feedback on that you can give us?

500dollar744ti
12-19-2007, 10:22 AM
Edit: No one's looking at the 4HP-22?

:wtf: you're kidding right? the ZF? those things will burn up idling in neutral (i watched it happen once), i have seen more of those replaced under standard operation than any other rwd volvo trans.

poulson01
12-19-2007, 11:43 AM
:wtf: you're kidding right? the ZF? those things will burn up idling in neutral (i watched it happen once), i have seen more of those replaced under standard operation than any other rwd volvo trans.

Nope, no kidding. Other then that little glitch, they're a fine tranny. They can be fixed with superseding part numbers and some minor drilling, (which would be a no brainer if you were building one for performance anyway) or you do the shift into park/neutral, shut off engine and start back up thing. They burn up because of internal leakage into C2, causing the clutch to partially engage. Good way to buy a cheap BMW or Volvo (yes they came in Volvos). Find someone who has burned up their tranny during an emissions inspection.
Also, there's parts for them and you can work on them in your back yard.

BDKR
12-19-2007, 12:02 PM
The above out of the way, why has nobody mentioned the 372?


Please ignore this. I didn't really pay attention to the below.

an incomplete list of vehicles with transmissions from the same family:
Isuzu impulse 1987-1989 (turbo and NA) 03-72L / A45DL
Amigo 1992-1994 (03-72L /A44DL)
Isuzu pickup 88-95 (03-72)

Dodge:
D50 (also known as Ram 50)

MITSU:
87-90 Van/wagon – A44DL
87-89 Pickup (mighty max) A44D
87-94 Montero A44D/DL


Mazda:
99-up Miata A44Dl



Toyota:
Van (a44dl/a45dl)
Older cressidas (a44dl)

So in other words, we are talking primarily about the 372. Duh!!!!

500dollar744ti
12-19-2007, 04:41 PM
Nope, no kidding. Other then that little glitch, they're a fine tranny.

well i will go ahead and let you swap a zf-4hp22 from a 1985 740 into your car and you can report back when you throw 350 crank horsepower at it.

poulson01
12-19-2007, 05:09 PM
well i will go ahead and let you swap a zf-4hp22 from a 1985 740 into your car and you can report back when you throw 350 crank horsepower at it.

I'd rather you do it. If you wait for me, you'll be waiting a while. I can tell you that there's a guy in Sussex with an old BMW 745 that's making close to that.
You guys don't believe me, cool. Back to the AW.

BDKR
12-19-2007, 05:29 PM
Back to the AW.

OK. :)


AnthonyH: There is one more thing that has had me concerned. The depth of the bellhousings (the portion where the tqc will live) between my KM148 and AW70 was considerable! At least 1/2 an inch. Are the 372/KM148 tqc's bigger? You also mentioned guys using AW71 tqc's. Any feedback on that you can give us?


Anything for me?

linuxman51
12-19-2007, 08:36 PM
Nope, no kidding. Other then that little glitch, they're a fine tranny. They can be fixed with superseding part numbers and some minor drilling, (which would be a no brainer if you were building one for performance anyway) or you do the shift into park/neutral, shut off engine and start back up thing. They burn up because of internal leakage into C2, causing the clutch to partially engage. Good way to buy a cheap BMW or Volvo (yes they came in Volvos). Find someone who has burned up their tranny during an emissions inspection.
Also, there's parts for them and you can work on them in your back yard.

I've heard this about the ZF boxes, and exploring that would be entertaining (and I'd love any additional info you might have about them, you can never have too many options), however within the confines of this thread and the common denominator lets try and focus on the aw's. Not to rain on your ideas at all, but its a bit beyond the intended scope of this particular thread. I have heard interesting things about the ZF boxes tho, but they seem to be increasingly rare in volvos at the JY.

Can someone check and see if the clutches across the transmissions we're talking about are the same/similar (or at least about the same diameter)? If this is the case then I think we can come up with a lot of parts interchangeability & can pick and choose what parts to go where..

Also, one of the posted links (mike i think) had a description of a 6 disc C2 carrier, we might find upon closer disassembly that a less than significant amount of machine work might be required (course they might have had their own parts cast :shrug:) to at least add one steel and clutch to that pack, if not two. Might be as simple as grabbing the C2 carrier from an A34X. Anyone got access to such things? I haven't had time to research anything today, was out of town until,oh, an hour ago.

poulson01
12-20-2007, 09:18 AM
....you can never have too many options....

At the risk of going way off topic.......
http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/ee16/poulson01/misc/View8.jpg
This is an idea that I thought was an original but it seems someone beat me to it.....About 30 years ago.

IceCold4x4
12-20-2007, 11:26 AM
WTF is that?

linuxman51
12-20-2007, 11:38 AM
WTF is that?

believe thats a 727 or something like that (chrysler? or dodge..)

poulson01
12-20-2007, 12:25 PM
Clutchflyte. 'Member my stupid "manumatic" idea?

Edit: You can't get this stuff anymore. It was a fad, I guess.

linuxman51
12-20-2007, 03:55 PM
Upgraded clutches and steels. Red eagle friction packs run ~$25 and $21 for forward, and low/reverse. (forward likely needs 2 sets), the kolene treated steels are about ~$10 less a pack.

Renny_D
12-20-2007, 06:35 PM
Clutchflyte. 'Member my stupid "manumatic" idea?

Edit: You can't get this stuff anymore. It was a fad, I guess.

Yep back in my chevelle days that was going to be the next tranny if my Super T-10 blew up.

Back on topic. JL said talked a while back about swapping thicker steels for thinner ones in order to add more to the clutch pack. How would that work and where are the thicker and thinner steels to be found. Some one also commented on the worry that thinner steels would warp easier? Any truth to this?

Thanks
Renny

blarf
12-20-2007, 06:43 PM
they seem to be increasingly rare in volvos at the JY.

Do they have integral bellhousings? They were used in all sorts of things that we got stateside (E28, E30, E32, E34, Pug 505, and some Jags). If you could swap the bellhousing and TC over, you could have a lot of trannies to choose from. At least out here, most of those Bimmers are autoboxes... some may even be electronically controlled. :e-shrug:

poulson01
12-21-2007, 08:58 AM
Upgraded clutches and steels. Red eagle friction packs run ~$25 and $21 for forward, and low/reverse. (forward likely needs 2 sets), the kolene treated steels are about ~$10 less a pack.

I'm sorry, are those the kevlar ones?

linuxman51
12-21-2007, 09:04 AM
I'm sorry, are those the kevlar ones?

http://www.altousa.com/friction.htm

500dollar744ti
12-21-2007, 09:06 AM
anybody try a bw55 bellhousing on a aw30-43 yet?

poulson01
12-21-2007, 09:30 AM
anybody try a bw55 bellhousing on a aw30-43 yet?

The only time I did anything like this was with a ZF. I used a Volvo tranny in a BMW. I swapped the bell, tail, main shaft and valve body (basically built one out of two). The only AWs' I have are from Volvos so I can't compare. I don't see a problem but you'd need them all side by side. No one will go out on a limb and tell you that it can be done. We'll have to see for ourselves.

BDKR
12-21-2007, 10:00 AM
So Kenny: When are you going to the boneyard? This weekend? I'm curious what unit you end up with. There are a number of different tail shaft lengths / housing configurations. I'm also curious if you are going to go ahead and experiment with rebuilding using a '71 tail shaft / planetary gear assembly.

Good luck!

500dollar744ti
12-21-2007, 10:18 AM
The only time I did anything like this was with a ZF. I used a Volvo tranny in a BMW. I swapped the bell, tail, main shaft and valve body (basically built one out of two). The only AWs' I have are from Volvos so I can't compare. I don't see a problem but you'd need them all side by side. No one will go out on a limb and tell you that it can be done. We'll have to see for ourselves.

yeah i was only wondering because apparently the idea has yet to be explored and i only came up with it a few days ago and it would be super bitchin' for us all if it works.

linuxman51
12-21-2007, 10:27 AM
So Kenny: When are you going to the boneyard? This weekend? I'm curious what unit you end up with. There are a number of different tail shaft lengths / housing configurations. I'm also curious if you are going to go ahead and experiment with rebuilding using a '71 tail shaft / planetary gear assembly.

Good luck!

I might get out there tomorrow afternoon, we'll see. If not then, then probably monday morning. I'm going to take a tape measure, and might do some junkyard creations (Swap **** at the yard, ahhah). I'm also waiting on an bw55 to fall into my lap, someone local is swapping theirs out for an aw70.

linuxman51
12-21-2007, 10:33 AM
The only time I did anything like this was with a ZF. I used a Volvo tranny in a BMW. I swapped the bell, tail, main shaft and valve body (basically built one out of two). The only AWs' I have are from Volvos so I can't compare. I don't see a problem but you'd need them all side by side. No one will go out on a limb and tell you that it can be done. We'll have to see for ourselves.

Well we know from the supra guys that you can swap the guts from the GTE automatic into the mk3 supra auto box, IF the bellhousing from the bw55 will bolt up to the 7m auto, we might be in business. I should have one of these (or a similar gearbox) in my possession in a day or two, borrowed from my Mk2 buddy. Who also, it so happens, has a 2jz auto floating around that one could try the bellhousing swap on.

500dollar744ti
12-21-2007, 11:19 AM
IF the bellhousing from the bw55 will bolt up to the 7m auto, we might be in business.

i hope to god it does but if not it would be damn sure easy to modify so it will fit. :-P

linuxman51
12-21-2007, 12:58 PM
i hope to god it does but if not it would be damn sure easy to modify so it will fit. :-P
fitment might not be the only issue at hand, there's also install depth, etc. even if it drops right on we might not be out of the woods.

BDKR
12-21-2007, 01:17 PM
fitment might not be the only issue at hand, there's also install depth, etc. even if it drops right on we might not be out of the woods.

It sounds like you are concerned about the same thing I am. We're talking about the area forward of the pump right? Basically where the torque convertor housed. I've allready noticed there is considerable variance between the KM148 housing and the 70/71 housing which causes me to wonder just how big the convertor on that thing was.

Now AnthonyH claims that others in Thailand are using a 372 and it's my assumption that that is with a '71 convertor.

http://forums.turbobricks.com/showpost.php?p=1390845&postcount=25

I really need to gain some understanding in this area. Lots of work on Turbine Dump has cut into my project time. :-(

Lord Tentacle
12-21-2007, 01:23 PM
I've got a junk AW71 sitting near me
i'm going to play with the bellhousing and a bandsaw tomorow and see if its not possible to cut it infront of the back plate and have it welded to the back plate of the removable AW30-40 bell housing

500dollar744ti
12-21-2007, 01:33 PM
fitment might not be the only issue at hand, there's also install depth, etc. even if it drops right on we might not be out of the woods.

yeah depth may be an issue, hopefully the bw55 or 71 converter can be made to fit...

on a side note we are talking about a bw55 housing to aw30-43 guys, why are people talking about removing the 70/71 housing still?

IIRC the 960 t/c is uber slim and that may account for the housing depth because the inline 6 is so long i think they had to slim out the housing/converter to make the trans fit under the hump.

BDKR
12-21-2007, 02:32 PM
on a side note we are talking about a bw55 housing to aw30-43 guys, why are people talking about removing the 70/71 housing still?


OK. What is this thread about again? Swapping parts with 70/71's and A4x/372's or 30-40's. The 30-40 is a totally different animal with a totally different case. If you can bolt a 70/71 bellhousing onto one of those, I'll be suprised.

Do the BW's and 30-40's share the same case?

poulson01
12-21-2007, 03:10 PM
OK. What is this thread about again? Swapping parts with 70/71's and A4x/372's or 30-40's. The 30-40 is a totally different animal with a totally different case. If you can bolt a 70/71 bellhousing onto one of those, I'll be suprised.

Do the BW's and 30-40's share the same case?

I have a pdf for the AW4. They came in a bunch of different Jeeps and 4x4s. I think it's the same family of tranny you guys are talking about. The bell bolt pattern might be the same as the AW71 but it might not pilot into the case. If not, machining might be enough to make it fit. Again, I don't have them side by side. If anyone lives near Vernon NJ, you could pay Pat a visit at Level-10. I feel a bit funny doing it because he doesn't owe me anymore favors and I never buy anything from him.

thelostartof
12-21-2007, 03:16 PM
I have a pdf for the AW4. They came in a bunch of different Jeeps and 4x4s. I think it's the same family of tranny you guys are talking about. The bell bolt pattern might be the same as the AW71 but it might not pilot into the case. If not, machining might be enough to make it fit. Again, I don't have them side by side. If anyone lives near Vernon NJ, you could pay Pat a visit at Level-10. I feel a bit funny doing it because he doesn't owe me anymore favors and I never buy anything from him.

I have a dead lvl10 trans here if you want me to ship to you so you can go bug them about it

haha

poulson01
12-21-2007, 03:21 PM
I have a dead lvl10 trans here if you want me to ship to you so you can go bug them about it

haha

:doh: D O H!!
That's why I never buy anything from him. Comebacks will end a relationship quick!

BDKR
12-21-2007, 03:45 PM
I have a pdf for the AW4. They came in a bunch of different Jeeps and 4x4s. I think it's the same family of tranny you guys are talking about.


If by AW4, you mean A4 as listed here...
http://forums.turbobricks.com/showpost.php?p=1544752&postcount=17
... and ...
http://forums.turbobricks.com/showpost.php?p=709479&postcount=1
, then yes, that's it.

A lot of the stuff Aarron was talking about was based on mixing AW70/71 bits with the AW372 / A44D (also known my many other variants like the KM148 that I have). Kenny and I are both playing off this idea. As a matter of fact, I got my 372 from Aaron.

That said, the 30-40 really is a different animal compared the the AWx/A4x series trannies.


The bell bolt pattern might be the same as the AW71 but it might not pilot into the case.


IT IS the same! ;-)

poulson01
12-21-2007, 04:39 PM
Cool. You guys are doing great.
I know that for other trannies, you can supersede the one way clutches. Sprags are stronger. I know you're not there yet but that would be enough to sell me and I'd never mention ZF again!

500dollar744ti
12-21-2007, 04:43 PM
OK. What is this thread about again? Swapping parts with 70/71's and A4x/372's or 30-40's. The 30-40 is a totally different animal with a totally different case. If you can bolt a 70/71 bellhousing onto one of those, I'll be suprised.

Do the BW's and 30-40's share the same case?

that is what i am saying, you can bolt a bw55 bellhousing to the aw30-43le, i have an aw4 (renamed 30/43le in later years) in my jeep which is the same trans, i am gonna go have a look and measure some things... i wasn't trying to redirect the thread... i was just saying that if i'm not mistaken Kenny and i are thinking at the same level on flip flopping bw55/aw30-43 parts to come up with a monster redblock auto.. it didn't have anything to do with using 70/71 parts. :-P

I have a pdf for the AW4. They came in a bunch of different Jeeps and 4x4s. I think it's the same family of tranny you guys are talking about. The bell bolt pattern might be the same as the AW71 but it might not pilot into the case. If not, machining might be enough to make it fit. Again, I don't have them side by side. If anyone lives near Vernon NJ, you could pay Pat a visit at Level-10. I feel a bit funny doing it because he doesn't owe me anymore favors and I never buy anything from him.

the aw4 will not match a 70/71 front bellhousing/case... i looked at the one in my truck and it has a shorty bellhousing but the center section of the trans itself is the same as 960/supra...

now if the bw55 tail housing doesn't fit on the back of the 30/43 you can always use a 960 driveshaft but in better interest i would consider getting a 2wd jeep tailshaft housing and using the jeep rear driveshaft as it rated for much more torque with rediculous aftermarket support (beefy u-joints and whatnot) plus it should bolt to a dana no problem, just would have to be lengthened/shortened.

linuxman51
12-21-2007, 04:49 PM
that is what i am saying, you can bolt a bw55 bellhousing to the aw30-43le, i have an aw4 in my jeep which is the same trans, i am gonna go have a look and measure some things... i wasn't trying to redirect the thread... i was just saying that if i'm not mistaken Kenny and i are thinking on the same level on flip flopping bw55/aw30-43 parts to come up with a monster redblock auto.. it didn't have anything to do with using 70/71 parts. :-P

i'm down with a solution that works. Be it a 30-40 swap or a 372 swap. I don't care. Either of these two solutions are perfectly fine with me, provided they meet the requisite criteria. The bringing in of the 30-40 info was more originally an attempt at cross fitting stronger naughty bits, but if one can bolt one up by getting an old bellhousing, that too is great.

Options, its all about the options.

poulson01
12-21-2007, 04:52 PM
the aw4 will not match a 70/71 front bellhousing/case... i looked at the one in my truck and it has a shorty bellhousing but the center section of the trans itself is the same as 960/supra...

now if the bw55 tail housing doesn't fit on the back of the 30/43 you can always use a 960 driveshaft but in better interest i would consider getting a 2wd jeep tailshaft and using the jeep rear driveshaft as it rated for much more torque with rediculous aftermarket support (beefy u-joints and whatnot) plus it should bolt to a dana no problem, just would have to be lengthened/shortened.

Yeah, sorry. I'm confused. I forgot about the '71 having that extra aluminum. I should have said BW. You're on the money.

BDKR
12-21-2007, 06:48 PM
that is what i am saying, you can bolt a bw55 bellhousing to the aw30-43le, i have an aw4 (renamed 30/43le in later years) in my jeep which is the same trans, i am gonna go have a look and measure some things... i wasn't trying to redirect the thread... i was just saying that if i'm not mistaken Kenny and i are thinking at the same level on flip flopping bw55/aw30-43 parts to come up with a monster redblock auto.. it didn't have anything to do with using 70/71 parts. :-P



the aw4 will not match a 70/71 front bellhousing/case... i looked at the one in my truck and it has a shorty bellhousing but the center section of the trans itself is the same as 960/supra...

now if the bw55 tail housing doesn't fit on the back of the 30/43 you can always use a 960 driveshaft but in better interest i would consider getting a 2wd jeep tailshaft housing and using the jeep rear driveshaft as it rated for much more torque with rediculous aftermarket support (beefy u-joints and whatnot) plus it should bolt to a dana no problem, just would have to be lengthened/shortened.

Ahh...... I see. The clouds are clearing. :rofl:

gsellstr
12-21-2007, 10:00 PM
FWIW the AW71 I had 'built' for the wagon had the Red Eagle frictions and steels in all the clutch packs. With my measly sub-200rwhp and 300 or so rwtq I killed that in 15k. Granted that was without the accum. mod though.

Also someone you guys might check into, as they do VB stuff for the Toy trannies and seem to actually know their stuff (even from a conversation on the phone a while back) is IPT.
http://www.importperformancetrans.com/

MIGHT have something worthwhile there....

I'm certainly staying tuned as this could prove beneficial when this trans blows, or when the new motor and EMS goes in.

Renny_D
12-21-2007, 11:07 PM
I've got a junk AW71 sitting near me
i'm going to play with the bellhousing and a bandsaw tomorow and see if its not possible to cut it infront of the back plate and have it welded to the back plate of the removable AW30-40 bell housing

It unbolts..

Renny

linuxman51
12-22-2007, 12:08 AM
It unbolts..

Renny

what he's saying is cutting it down to attach it to a dissimmilar case.

thelostartof
12-22-2007, 12:13 AM
FWIW the AW71 I had 'built' for the wagon had the Red Eagle frictions and steels in all the clutch packs. With my measly sub-200rwhp and 300 or so rwtq I killed that in 15k. Granted that was without the accum. mod though.

Also someone you guys might check into, as they do VB stuff for the Toy trannies and seem to actually know their stuff (even from a conversation on the phone a while back) is IPT.
http://www.importperformancetrans.com/

MIGHT have something worthwhile there....

I'm certainly staying tuned as this could prove beneficial when this trans blows, or when the new motor and EMS goes in.



you might want to also mention the fact that your shifts were big and slow .

OR the fact that you had pump issues with it? which might of been most of the reason it failed

gsellstr
12-22-2007, 01:04 AM
Hard telling the actual cause. He wouldn't divulge anything, but assured me the pressures were fine when they checked them. Yes, the shifts were laggy, but nothing worse than the trans it replaced.

I think when the trans in the car goes I may do the accum. mod to that one, throw it in, and see how long til it blows up. :)

EmaGen
12-22-2007, 09:04 PM
many, many other vehicles as well... my 1987 jeep has the AW30-40LE (2.80, 1.53, 1.00 & .75 ratios respectively) and the trans controller is a silly little box that only needs a tps input, brake switch and neutral switch to run the trans.. it also has a "power/comfort" thingy which is just a tripped lead on the TCM with extended shiftpoints. it has lockup torque converter and the 2wd jeep version should be identical to the 960 trans minus the bellhousing. if i ever tried to run a 30-40le i would use the jeep box to control it for ease of integration with megasquirt. the 30-40LE is very interchangable because the trans is almost always a 3 piece setup with bellhousing/trans/tailshaft housing... i have all the info needed to control the jeep version of it which i would assume is the simplist map of control compared to volvo/toyota control boxes as they are probably integrated with other modules

edit:// just looked it up, the jeep aw-4 (30-40LE) has a 450lb/ft torque rating from the factory :wtf:

more info at my jeep forums
http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=273048
of course written by the man with the turbo 4.0 i-6

awshifting.com also makes standalone stuff to control a340/aw4/aw30-40 setups for performance.

well think about it 450lb/ft Take what 195-220lb-ft for your engine in the Jeep some were around there. With the 4WD engaged it will double that so that sounds about right on...:oogle:

Renny_D
12-28-2007, 08:52 PM
Any new info and or updates?? I'm going to have a AW71 to rebuild if I decide to go this route. So bump for more info.

Thanks
Renny

linuxman51
12-28-2007, 08:55 PM
i'm enjoying my hot tub right now, development is on hold at the moment until after new years.

Boosted2003
12-30-2007, 06:06 PM
Everything I know about the Supra(MK4) 2jzgte automatic is good for about 400whp. After that it will start to let go unless upgrades. Might as well put a th-350 in the car. Can't go wrong with a powerglide.

500dollar744ti
02-19-2008, 08:38 AM
speaking of thread resurrection have we advanced anywhere with this?

anyone try a bw55 bellhousing on the 960/supra trans?

linuxman51
02-19-2008, 09:13 AM
speaking of thread resurrection have we advanced anywhere with this?

anyone try a bw55 bellhousing on the 960/supra trans?

not even close.

rwturbo
02-19-2008, 09:28 PM
Well not to jump in on this but is there anything to do with the following issue. On our AW 71 's we have to run the cable extremly loose to keep them in OD at wide open 120 mph plus. Thus it will want to go thru all gears and OD by 25 mph. I was thinking of moving the cable off the throttle spool to the inside and put it on like a pushmower throttle handle so I can set it tight for D driving or loose for high speeds. Anyone ever figured out what to do with this issue? Thanks

linuxman51
02-19-2008, 10:33 PM
Well not to jump in on this but is there anything to do with the following issue. On our AW 71 's we have to run the cable extremly loose to keep them in OD at wide open 120 mph plus. Thus it will want to go thru all gears and OD by 25 mph. I was thinking of moving the cable off the throttle spool to the inside and put it on like a pushmower throttle handle so I can set it tight for D driving or loose for high speeds. Anyone ever figured out what to do with this issue? Thanks

the overdrive CLUTCH cannot handle much abuse, I would not recommend going into overdrive under close to full power at all.

rwturbo
02-20-2008, 06:08 AM
Well my last tranny lasted 10 years with atleast weekly or 2 wide open at 15-20 PSI, I guess I got lucky.

RoadRacer4Life
02-20-2008, 09:25 AM
Well my last tranny lasted 10 years with atleast weekly or 2 wide open at 15-20 PSI, I guess I got lucky.

well sounds like you have it figured out.. good luck..

linuxman51
02-20-2008, 11:11 PM
I've got one sitting on the bench right now if you'd like to see what the overdrive clutch looks like...

mikes02ls1
02-20-2008, 11:21 PM
How about buy adapter plate and put a nice 2004r/ GN tranny in it. I think the bell housing for the TH350 and all SBC and 90 degree v6 are the same.

linuxman51
02-20-2008, 11:36 PM
How about buy adapter plate and put a nice 2004r/ GN tranny in it. I think the bell housing for the TH350 and all SBC and 90 degree v6 are the same.

they are. this is a possibility, one that I've personally already explored. Lost interest in the th350, and I think I can get the aw to do most of what I want.

mikes02ls1
02-20-2008, 11:38 PM
they are. this is a possibility, one that I've personally already explored. Lost interest in the th350, and I think I can get the aw to do most of what I want.
If i knew the AW could handle 500rwhp all day long I would rebuild it. Tring to find a good tranny for 16v project.

linuxman51
02-20-2008, 11:53 PM
If i knew the AW could handle 500rwhp all day long I would rebuild it. Tring to find a good tranny for 16v project.

I'm curious what makes you think it can't...

mikes02ls1
02-21-2008, 12:08 AM
I'm curious what makes you think it can't...
stories on this board on how crappy these tranny are, and how know one can build them right. Example I think Level 10

linuxman51
02-21-2008, 12:10 AM
stories on this board on how crappy these tranny are, and how know one can build them right. Example I think Level 10

give IPT a call if you want to talk to a group of people that know more about these boxes than any group of people ever should

mikes02ls1
02-21-2008, 12:21 AM
give IPT a call if you want to talk to a group of people that know more about these boxes than any group of people ever should
Got a number or website?

thelostartof
02-21-2008, 12:27 AM
stories on this board on how crappy these tranny are, and how know one can build them right. Example I think Level 10

most of those people are idiots and you need to stop listening to them ... STOCK autos have ran faster than any stock manual box so ...
and level 10 is a joke so they do not even count

mikes02ls1
02-21-2008, 12:28 AM
most of those people are idiots and you need to stop listening to them ... STOCK autos have ran faster than any stock manual box so ...
and level 10 is a joke so they do not even countI know just want someone who know what the hell they are doing and build a nice strong AW tranny to handle some serious power...

thelostartof
02-21-2008, 12:51 AM
http://www.importperformancetrans.com/

Gabe244
02-21-2008, 05:52 AM
any word on that manual vb from lvl10? im keen on making/modding one for my bw55, couldnt be too different right?:lol: i was talking to one of the best auto machanic specialists a few weeks ago and apparently the accumulator mod is likely to cause a round spinning thing to break and send shards of it into the casing:wtf: but the vb mod is supposedly slightly safer so a manual vb wouldnt be too bad either...until i drive it.:lol:

linuxman51
02-21-2008, 07:33 AM
any word on that manual vb from lvl10? im keen on making/modding one for my bw55, couldnt be too different right?:lol: i was talking to one of the best auto machanic specialists a few weeks ago and apparently the accumulator mod is likely to cause a round spinning thing to break and send shards of it into the casing:wtf: but the vb mod is supposedly slightly safer so a manual vb wouldnt be too bad either...until i drive it.:lol:

maybe the aw55 has a weaker planetary gearset than the later boxes, should be a direct replacement from an aw70/71. aside from that, no, its not going to cause something to explode, all it does is soften the shift for the driver. From the green manual "the purpose of the accumulators are to improve shift quality". I.e. make it shift nice and soft, by slipping the clutches on engagement.

500dollar744ti
02-21-2008, 07:52 AM
From the green manual "the purpose of the accumulators are to improve shift quality". I.e. make it shift nice and soft, by slipping the clutches on engagement.

yeah, volvo does a lot of things to keep the mass of customers from bitching, first customers bitched about lag so they switched from .42/.63 garrett to .42/.48 garret, then customers bitched about performance so they went .52/.48... the lag issue was still in full force and thanks to all the yuppie golfers in their turbo cars never peaking more than 3k rpm, what do we get for 1990? 13C! yay, not. :lol:

linuxman51
02-21-2008, 01:21 PM
on a side note what do you guys think would be a reasonable price to get a cleaned up aw71 with new clutches,seals, some valve body modifications, and the accumulator mod? I've just about worked out a clear path from really mild to about as far as you can go with a 71, and the upgrade from the 71 to something else for the select few that might need it is also in the works.

klr142
02-21-2008, 03:38 PM
$350-500 for mild, $500-$1000 depending on wild?

Renny_D
02-21-2008, 03:44 PM
on a side note what do you guys think would be a reasonable price to get a cleaned up aw71 with new clutches,seals, some valve body modifications, and the accumulator mod? I've just about worked out a clear path from really mild to about as far as you can go with a 71, and the upgrade from the 71 to something else for the select few that might need it is also in the works.

Would this be with a core good tranny? I'd probably be willing to pay 400 and two shipping charges - ship you a good tranny and return with a better tranny for accumulator - modded valve body and better clutches. 600 if you could do a complete manual valve body and a lock up converter also with manual controls? Am I being too cheap?

Thanks
Renny

thelostartof
02-21-2008, 03:49 PM
$350-500 for mild, $500-$1000 depending on wild?

rebuilt and refresh kits are typically around $300+ for parts alone ... Labor is the big key here.

I would expect for pay easy $600+ for a mild setup if not more as a fair amount of time goes into rebuilding them

thelostartof
02-21-2008, 03:49 PM
600 if you could do a complete manual valve body and a lock up converter also with manual controls? Am I being too cheap?

Thanks
Renny

Yes

Renny_D
02-21-2008, 04:01 PM
Yes

Thought I might be but I figured he asked. So 600 to 800 in the -400lbtq 800+++ depending on wildness.

Thanks
Renny

linuxman51
02-21-2008, 04:07 PM
there will likely never be a manual valve body for the aw71 beyond what it already has,
it essentially has one (Low is 1st, 2nd is obviously 2nd, and D is 3rd, just turn off overdrive and let it be) as it sits. As far as other cool things, like electronic lockup and a transbrake, I wouldn't look for any of that either unless I have an epiphany. lockup speed can be played with via things in the valve body, but as far as putting a switch on the dash, not likely.

Lucky the Smiling Pirate
02-21-2008, 04:12 PM
finish my intake first. then I'll buy a wild trans from you for a grand:e-shrug:

linuxman51
02-21-2008, 07:07 PM
finish my intake first. then I'll buy a wild trans from you for a grand:e-shrug:

I can't start without a flange paco.

mikes02ls1
02-21-2008, 07:32 PM
I can't start without a flange paco.
So your taking on rebuilding AW71 trannys, I guess you have source for better internals parts? IPT is expensive, but you got to pay to play, a built 2004r can be had cheaper then what they quoted me for a rebuild.

linuxman51
02-21-2008, 07:49 PM
So your taking on rebuilding AW71 trannys, I guess you have source for better internals parts? IPT is expensive, but you got to pay to play, a built 2004r can be had cheaper then what they quoted me for a rebuild.

anything almost is cheaper than what they charge hahahahaha

mikes02ls1
02-21-2008, 07:59 PM
anything almost is cheaper than what they charge hahahahaha
But will it hold up to what theirs so call say?

linuxman51
02-21-2008, 08:05 PM
But will it hold up to what theirs so call say?

not to put too fine a point on it but I can go through about 7 or 8 different combinations and transmissions for what they charge to build just one. and since its a racing part, i wouldn't really expect a whole lot of warranty honorment on their part, but by and large they're highly regarded in the supra world (And thus, they charge supra prices)

mikes02ls1
02-21-2008, 08:10 PM
not to put too fine a point on it but I can go through about 7 or 8 different combinations and transmissions for what they charge to build just one. and since its a racing part, i wouldn't really expect a whole lot of warranty honorment on their part, but by and large they're highly regarded in the supra world (And thus, they charge supra prices)
I hear ya on the Supra price's....lol Well let me know if you have the best stuff to build a tranny to handle 500+rwhp. Thats my goal, and need a auto to handle that 24/7 if I choose to give hell and make it back home.

Lucky the Smiling Pirate
02-21-2008, 08:20 PM
I can't start without a flange paco.

woops pm me your address and ill mail it saturday.

amargill19?
02-21-2008, 08:29 PM
so what kind of fluid do you guys like in your ADUB's?

Mine shifts funny when I know it's a quart low. So I added one today, my manual says Dexron II type D or something. All they had at the 'station was typeF and md3.

I went with type F. Is this bad?

mikes02ls1
02-21-2008, 08:32 PM
so what kind of fluid do you guys like in your ADUB's?

Mine shifts funny when I know it's a quart low. So I added one today, my manual says Dexron II type D or something. All they had at the 'station was typeF and md3.

I went with type F. Is this bad?Damn you just fawk up your tranny son.... I would get that fluid out as quick as possible...




















































































































































































































J/K...............................................
Not sure what would happen, let the force be with you Daniel son...

amargill19?
02-21-2008, 08:40 PM
well it's got close to two liters of type F

drips a bit every now and then from the tailshaft I suspect.

mikes02ls1
02-21-2008, 08:46 PM
well it's got close to two liters of type F

drips a bit every now and then from the tailshaft I suspect.
Fix the tailshaft seal, and your leak will go away......:rofl:

PetesDustyVolvo
02-21-2008, 08:47 PM
well it's got close to two liters of type F

drips a bit every now and then from the tailshaft I suspect.

You should put dexron mercon III, adding Type F will probably not hurt it

ikyikthe1st
02-21-2008, 11:02 PM
You should put dexron mercon III, adding Type F will probably not hurt it

it just makes baby jesus cry

o and how do i replace shifter bushings to enhance performance of my transmission

Gabe244
02-22-2008, 03:30 AM
maybe the aw55 has a weaker planetary gearset than the later boxes, should be a direct replacement from an aw70/71. aside from that, no, its not going to cause something to explode, all it does is soften the shift for the driver. From the green manual "the purpose of the accumulators are to improve shift quality". I.e. make it shift nice and soft, by slipping the clutches on engagement.

yeah, i thought that it would be fine and so did the guys at the volvo store so i was mighty supprised when he said not to do it. im inclined to believe him becuase apparently he's THE guy to talk to for auto stuff. i may do it down the road when i have the moola for a manual conversion:lol:

L8 APEKS
02-22-2008, 04:05 AM
Upgraded clutches and steels. Red eagle friction packs run ~$25 and $21 for forward, and low/reverse. (forward likely needs 2 sets), the kolene treated steels are about ~$10 less a pack.

For which box...the AW71 or something else? I'm looking into a rebuild soon, haven't seen any "hi-po" materials for the factory box yet.

linuxman51
02-22-2008, 09:51 AM
For which box...the AW71 or something else? I'm looking into a rebuild soon, haven't seen any "hi-po" materials for the factory box yet.

you realize the common name for the aw71 is the A43D aka 03-71 (which is mentioned somewhere in this thread a couple of times and all over the place in aaron's thread)
at any rate raybestos makes upgraded clutches as well ('blue plates'), so to answer your question, yes, hi-po materials are available.

Mueller
02-22-2008, 10:35 AM
you realize the common name for the aw71 is the A43D aka 03-71 (which is mentioned somewhere in this thread a couple of times and all over the place in aaron's thread)
at any rate raybestos makes upgraded clutches as well ('blue plates'), so to answer your question, yes, hi-po materials are available.


glad to see some progress with these auto's....currently a manual car right now, but I could see going the auto route if my knee or back f's up too much from pushing in a clutch !!!

L8 APEKS
02-22-2008, 11:58 AM
you realize the common name for the aw71 is the A43D aka 03-71 (which is mentioned somewhere in this thread a couple of times and all over the place in aaron's thread)
at any rate raybestos makes upgraded clutches as well ('blue plates'), so to answer your question, yes, hi-po materials are available.

Cool, thx muxh. No, I didn't realize the "proper" name for that box...but then again, I hadn't even seen anyone use it until this thread. :-P

It does seem a little silly to call it such a weak box though, considering the abuse they can handle from all of us. Sure, they won't tolerate 600hp. But I do think it's somewhat impressive that a stock AW71 without a rebuild will tolerate roughly 100% increase in HP and 50% increase in TQ with 200,000 miles plus on the clock!

Coupled with the renewed interest in beefing up this box by people such as yourself, and I would think a rebuilt one would handle slightly more power...maybe 140% increase in HP and 75% increase in TQ compared to stock? I know it won't suit the more extreme guys on here, but ****, that's good for 99% of Turbobricks! :nod:

Renny_D
02-22-2008, 12:39 PM
So what is it that the Supra guys are doing to throw a 1000 hp through these things. What do the GM guys do to a regular box to take that same sort of abuse? Seems like if it's possible for the Supra crowd - we should be able to manage really wild hp/tq requirements. Seems like 500+ bhp cars are not too far away at this point.

Also how do trans brakes work and is that something we'd be able to do at some point?

Lastly do we also have a lead on higher stall converters? I know Mike was working on those a while back but I'm not sure how that went?

Just wondering


Thanks
Renny

linuxman51
02-22-2008, 12:49 PM
So what is it that the Supra guys are doing to throw a 1000 hp through these things. What do the GM guys do to a regular box to take that same sort of abuse? Seems like if it's possible for the Supra crowd - we should be able to manage really wild hp/tq requirements. Seems like 500+ bhp cars are not too far away at this point.


they don't make 1000hp through an aw71. they put a ton of power through the a341, after its been built and upgraded, typically by IPT or level 10, or somewhere similar. You won't see an aw71 holding 1000hp, you probably won't see one hold on to much more than about 500-600 for any great length of time, they simply are not that big internally. all that power is going through clutches that are 5 inches in diameter, with a material band thats maybe 3/4 of an inch wide. I'm not sure about the 341 yet but even the part numbers and indicated sizes for them makes them bigger just by virtue of clutch size alone, and I imagine they have more clutches in them.

Same goes for the gm crowd. The gm transmissions also benefit from being around and hotrodded since the 70's, so there's a wealth of info about them. from what i've gathered, your average gm transmission isn't so average after its been gone through to handle extreme amounts of power, everything from the planetaries to the case gets modified/replaced/upgraded.



Also how do trans brakes work and is that something we'd be able to do at some point?


by applying first and reverse allowing you to stand all over the converter without moving the tires. This also drastically reduces the life expectancy of the transmission and subjects the rest of the driveline to more shock. As far as doing one in an AW, like I said before, i wouldn't look for that any time soon, if at all.


Lastly do we also have a lead on higher stall converters? I know Mike was working on those a while back but I'm not sure how that went?

Just wondering
Thanks
Renny

call ipt. they'll build you a custom converter for either 400 or 500.

linuxman51
04-07-2008, 09:02 AM
thread bump

First post edited to include some more current information.

linuxman51
04-07-2008, 07:40 PM
edited again.

Renny_D
04-28-2008, 08:40 PM
I just reread the info on the first page and I am wondering about the governer. When it reaches speed does it stop flow or allow it? Would some how modifying the governer turn our valve bodies into semi manual meaning it up shifts when you tell it to? I guess you'd have to modify or disable the modulator valves to have the car down shift when you want it to. I hope to be tearing into my near dead aw71 shortly after the swap so I can better understand this thing. I really want a reasonably strong automatic that shifts both up and down when you tell it to irregardless of where my right foot happens to be.

Thanks
Renny

BTW any guesses on why I would have a car that goes in all gears until warm then goes no where in any gear?

linuxman51
04-28-2008, 11:49 PM
goes through the gears until the fluid gets thin? i'd say you've got a healthy internal fluid leak, or possibly the filter is clogging up. got enough fluid?

Jacking with the governor (by modifying the free weight, or putting a stiffer spring in it) will generally only shift all of the shift points up or down. With Lh you don't want to really jack with that too much since you'll run the risk of the box not shifting up at WOT before you hit the limiter. A really really soft spring in the governor might let you make it fairly close to a manual valve body, altho it would still work much the same as it does now but with lower shift points in automatic mode. Might require lighter springs in the shift valves as well.

Gabe244
04-29-2008, 07:36 AM
but w/o lh.....:-D

linuxman51
04-29-2008, 07:41 AM
but w/o lh.....:-D

??

linuxman51
04-29-2008, 08:54 AM
rpm independant downshifting:

from 2 to 1 (on the stick) you would need to block the modulator valve (manual 2-1) from moving

3 to 2 will occur regardless (even on a stock transmission).

BDKR
04-29-2008, 09:42 AM
Well not to jump in on this but is there anything to do with the following issue. On our AW 71 's we have to run the cable extremly loose to keep them in OD at wide open 120 mph plus. Thus it will want to go thru all gears and OD by 25 mph. I was thinking of moving the cable off the throttle spool to the inside and put it on like a pushmower throttle handle so I can set it tight for D driving or loose for high speeds. Anyone ever figured out what to do with this issue? Thanks

I was just re-reading this thread again. Reading this post reminded me of something I thought up and still want to do.

http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=85736

In this thread, I figured if we could automatically adjust the kick down tension, we could have a smooth setting for around town then a high tension setting.

Now you on the other hand could set it real loose then use the solenoid/actuator (read the thread) to increase the tension to something normal.

Another option in my mind is to have multiple settings. This of course would be based on the availability of an linear actuator with multiple engagement settings or lenghts.

1) Fully closed or dis-engaged would be the loose setting you were talking about.
2) An intermediate setting could be normal driving.
3) Fully extended could be a high line pressure setting.

All of this could be manually controlled, via Hobbes switches, or with logic and a controller of some sort.

Excuse the thread jack. I just thought I'd mention that. ;-)

Gabe244
04-30-2008, 02:40 AM
intriguing...

and before... i meant if you had k-jet w/o a limiter (im guessing) you wouldnt have a problem with hitting the rpm limiter.

thesteve42
06-23-2008, 09:34 PM
just a side note in the spirit of the thread I just built and so can vouch for the compatability of the a43d, a46de and a42dl parts swaps. mine is an a43d with a42dl VB modded accum mods and a46de TC and overdrive,pump ect full lockup in 4. hydrolic controlled

Gabe244
06-27-2008, 03:45 AM
excuse my noobliness, but what model cars did they come in?

vbjlittleton
06-28-2008, 11:29 PM
i paid 1200 to have my aw71 built to the hilt and im running 23 psi and a 75 shot a nx and it dosent miss a lick so anybody who says its not possible is full of **** atleast to 450 hp :)

linuxman51
06-29-2008, 01:36 AM
excuse my noobliness, but what model cars did they come in?

all sorts of things. toyotas, izuzus, volvos, mitsus, the occasional dodge...

fsl
06-29-2008, 04:37 PM
If I want to convert to lets say TH350 or TH400 in my Volvo, what other parts than the gearbox itself do I need to fit it to the engine? I dont really know much about auto trans cos I always had manuals...

linuxman51
06-29-2008, 05:09 PM
If I want to convert to lets say TH350 or TH400 in my Volvo, what other parts than the gearbox itself do I need to fit it to the engine? I dont really know much about auto trans cos I always had manuals...

start a new thread about that.

fsl
06-30-2008, 02:50 PM
I tried and the answers I got was, forget it you dont know ****..

linuxman51
06-30-2008, 03:12 PM
I tried and the answers I got was, forget it you dont know ****..

link? I know exactly whats involved, but I don't want that in this thread (already enough off topic bull****)

fsl
06-30-2008, 04:02 PM
http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=137901
Really looking for people who have done this and what parts are needed, where I can buy nice built th350/400s, lockup etc :)
only for street(race) and dragrace :P

linuxman51
08-01-2008, 11:42 AM
Update, following the drainage of my current aw71:
Everything at a glance looks good, fluid was nice and bright red, no funny smells, there didn't appear to be anything on the filter screen, nothing really in the pan (but I'll look closer later today). I'll be going through the valve body adjusting a few things & might get around to testing it this evening weather depending. If all goes well, shift points should be move up quite a bit, clamping pressure will stay higher longer (without jacking the **** out of the line pressure), and I might be looking at a governor modification to bring the shifts back down in the short future. Ideally I'd like it to cycle through the gears fairly quickly in automatic mode, to make the drive to the dragstrip a little more bearable, and then pull it down and shift it manually at the track.

BDKR
08-01-2008, 02:45 PM
Update, following the drainage of my current aw71:
Everything at a glance looks good, fluid was nice and bright red, no funny smells, there didn't appear to be anything on the filter screen, nothing really in the pan (but I'll look closer later today). I'll be going through the valve body adjusting a few things & might get around to testing it this evening weather depending. If all goes well, shift points should be move up quite a bit, clamping pressure will stay higher longer (without jacking the **** out of the line pressure), and I might be looking at a governor modification to bring the shifts back down in the short future. Ideally I'd like it to cycle through the gears fairly quickly in automatic mode, to make the drive to the dragstrip a little more bearable, and then pull it down and shift it manually at the track.

Sweet! I'll certainly check back in later and tomorrow as well.

Renny_D
08-03-2008, 03:26 AM
Update, following the drainage of my current aw71:
Everything at a glance looks good, fluid was nice and bright red, no funny smells, there didn't appear to be anything on the filter screen, nothing really in the pan (but I'll look closer later today). I'll be going through the valve body adjusting a few things & might get around to testing it this evening weather depending. If all goes well, shift points should be move up quite a bit, clamping pressure will stay higher longer (without jacking the **** out of the line pressure), and I might be looking at a governor modification to bring the shifts back down in the short future. Ideally I'd like it to cycle through the gears fairly quickly in automatic mode, to make the drive to the dragstrip a little more bearable, and then pull it down and shift it manually at the track.

I will definitely be waiting to hear about this.

Thanks
Renny

linuxman51
08-06-2008, 11:56 AM
So I killed it. Largely by accident, and partially because several things were going on at once (not enough fluid. dammit). Tuning is on hold until I get the transmission sorted out, will probably replace the worn brakes/clutches for 2nd gear and see if that clears things up.

linuxman51
08-06-2008, 03:53 PM
Hm, by the look of things I've burned up B2. conveniently, I have the (a?) fix for this chilling in one of several boxes at the house. A quick call to my transmission buddy confirms that I can get new frictions for $2.50 in any number desired, so me and the sambo (or possibly just me and my baller ass self) will be building a transmission in the next day or two. Might try out some tricks while I'm in there, & test out a bigger front pump.

linuxman51
08-13-2008, 08:49 PM
So I've got the 'hybrid' together. Basically its a volvo shafted A44D, I passed up the opportunity to put extra clutches in(this time) since I didn't really have a selection of thinner frictions and steels. Perhaps next time....

Anyway, this will get me an extra clutch or two in B1 and B2, and an extra clutch in C0 (not that it matters, haven't killed c0 yet....).
I have also shifted a few things around and have a bigger front pump on the transmission now.

The only thing that concerns me a little is once everything goes tight it becomes impossible to turn by hand (however it wasn't really easy to shift things around before, and all the clutches mic'ed out fine as well as slack in the clutch stacks for engagement).

At the end of the day I'm out a couple days of labor and about $15 in atf if it turns out to be junk, I'm only really concerned about a couple of internal pieces& they're out of the line of failure-fire for the most part. The swap will probably start taking place tomorrow. if this transmission behaves itself I'll go back to playing with valve body stuff, if not I'll have to go to the jy and grab a couple of spares for the SE meet.

740ATL
08-13-2008, 11:03 PM
labor smabor... you're paving new ground, and getting new data.

on another note, you must smell atf everywhere now.

Gabe244
08-14-2008, 06:48 AM
no amount of shampoo can get that smell out of your hair.....:oops:

linuxman51
08-14-2008, 07:53 AM
labor smabor... you're paving new ground, and getting new data.

on another note, you must smell atf everywhere now.

no, didn't really make that big of a mess actually. I take it thats mikeneeze for "suck it up, figure it all out, then tell the rest of us"? :-P

BDKR
08-14-2008, 08:50 AM
no amount of shampoo can get that smell out of your hair.....:oops:

Palmolive works better. ;-)

Hope it turns out well. ;-)

linuxman51
08-14-2008, 10:19 PM
looked at things again tonight, poured a little extra atf in the holes, and realized that I'd been trying to turn it the wrong way (whoops. doesn't take much drag to get the rear 1-way to lock up). Going back to the dyno saturday morning, so the old transmission will stay until sunday or so.

klr142
08-15-2008, 01:51 AM
Will you be able to start the pull from lower rpm? Can't wait to see what's up!

linuxman51
08-15-2008, 10:04 AM
couple of pics (nothing really cool to see, i didn't take pictures during the build since its somewhat nasty work)

notice anything here?
http://www.pbase.com/kdh51/image/101691441.jpg

as it currently sits (damnit, no spare kickdown cable)
http://www.pbase.com/kdh51/image/101691440.jpg

subtle differences
http://www.pbase.com/kdh51/image/101691442.jpg

spare parts:
http://www.pbase.com/kdh51/image/101691438.jpg

more spares:
http://www.pbase.com/kdh51/image/101691439.jpg

part of the soon to be re-employed valvebody:
http://www.pbase.com/kdh51/image/101691437.jpg

and why I need a garage/workshop:
http://www.pbase.com/kdh51/image/101691443.jpg

linuxman51
08-17-2008, 11:11 PM
So after spending four more hours today figuring out a couple of not-so-obvious things, the rebuilt transmission is in the car, some things were corrected & now I feel pretty good about it (even if it pisses atf everywhere, I'm far more confident in getting things together correctly, having probably skewed as much as one could). We'll see tomorrow, it was too late when it was finally bolted in place.
One of my JY transmissions had a friction welded needle bearing pack that threw me for a loop (took a while to figure that one out, it was less than 1/16th of an inch out of place, but it was enough out of place that it juuuust didn't quite fit right), and the determination was also made, after going through and showing sam a couple of things while we were looking at something else, that I'd accidentally grabbed a .091 instead of a .071 for B1, the clearances in that were a little, uhm, under spec (this happened on re-assembly, it shim checked almost perfect, and I pulled the stack appart for some reason and grabbed the wrong steels, i guess purely by luck, or lack thereof, most were the right thickness).

Oh an there are some in discrepancies with lockup transmissions as well:

Bellhousing is a little bigger (goddamnit, and I didnt have a volvo 72l to get the housing from)
the overdrive front planetary gear set is different (result: prevents converter from sliding all the way in, necessitating not one but two teardowns of overdrive... because you can't tell that the bellhousing is too small).
Oh and if you're not paying attention and stuff the converter in there, it gets stuck. thank good for long screwdrivers and deadblows.

The old transmission (and its leaky ass self) is chillin on the workbench, I'm gonna snatch everything out of it to the middle brake cluster, and replace the worn clutches in B2, and check out everything else. Oh and go back through and clean up the valve body so that it will behave itself.

linuxman51
08-18-2008, 07:02 PM
Well, mixed results are always met with mixed emotions. I'll have to probably pull it back out to address some things (doh!), altho the news isnt all bad:

The good:
I have all three forward gears, and it seems to have loosened up in that direction.

The bad:
leaking seal around the tailshaft housing (damnit), which wouldn't be that bad except:
No reverse. At all. Reverse might as well double for park, except that somewhere along the way something is turning inside the transmission, and loading the engine. Might weasel the car out of the driveway and see if things get any better with a couple loops around the block, but I tend to think a 1 way in the back of the box is hung up or maybe something is stuck engaged that shouldnt be,

RoadRacer4Life
08-19-2008, 09:21 AM
after sunday evening i know more about volvo automatics than i ever wanted to know...

linuxman51
08-19-2008, 09:43 AM
stick around,I haven't even started playing with things good yet.

EricF
08-19-2008, 09:48 AM
after sunday evening i know more about volvo automatics than i ever wanted to know...

stick around,I haven't even started playing with things good yet.

Sam, you probably thought you were done with Volvos for now huh? :rofl:

BDKR
08-19-2008, 09:58 AM
...the overdrive front planetary gear set is different (result: prevents converter from sliding all the way in,...


Hmmm...... Much of this seems very familiar. :lol: I thought it was due to me not seating the assemblies correctly.


after sunday evening i know more about volvo automatics than i ever wanted to know...


:rofl:

hockey930
08-19-2008, 01:53 PM
kenny I hope you figure all this out, so I can copy exactly what you did like usual!

linuxman51
08-21-2008, 01:12 AM
Tore down ol' dirty tonight (that would be the abused, maligned, jy automatic thats been in the car for the past couple of months).

And I'm going to have to reconsider a few things.
This was the box with a slipping 2nd gear (slipped twice for sure, I didn't beat on it in 2nd after that). I expected to pull out a smoked B2 clutch stack (or is it b1? either or). What I pulled out instead were smoked b1, b2, b3 stacks, for which I had sufficient good condition stuff to replace, then I decided to check out the forward clutches, and c1 and c2 are also smoked. C2's clutches started off at around .091 thickness, the thickest one was .088, and it went down from there. C2 is 3rd gear. I don't recall it slipping, but its fairly apparent that it was doing something.

RedFridge
08-21-2008, 01:43 AM
Great thread Kenny. Thanks for the work.

linuxman51
08-21-2008, 08:44 AM
B1 (good side up)
http://www.pbase.com/kdh51/image/101978102.jpg

B2
http://www.pbase.com/kdh51/image/101978103.jpg

B3
http://www.pbase.com/kdh51/image/101978104.jpg

C2
http://www.pbase.com/kdh51/image/101978105.jpg

C2 hub (still in good shape)
http://www.pbase.com/kdh51/image/101978106.jpg

linuxman51
08-22-2008, 08:57 AM
Got some new clutches yesterday from my trans man, got everything back together for a 'snugness fit' and all appears to be well.. fluid rotation on both ends, a little stiffer than before the rebuild, so hopefully this thing will behave when tossed in the car. Not sure when that is going to be tho, maybe some time this weekend, we'll see.

linuxman51
08-24-2008, 10:28 PM
transmissions swapped again, got a few minor things to attach tomorrow before filling and firing. dropping the pan (needed the pan/tube for the other box) revealed some metallic shavings, so whatever is torn the f up is probably what was preventing reverse. hopefully its something minor, but it won't be the end of the world if its not.

fsl
08-25-2008, 04:38 PM
Is there an easy way to convert to AW30-43 in a 960 92 with a redblock? (B204ft stock w/ M46P)

linuxman51
08-25-2008, 06:14 PM
yeah sure, if you get a bellhousing made, grab a lockup converter, and come up with a method to control it. I'll eventually get there.

as for the hybrid aw71, something wasn't set right in the front, resulting in a destroyed overdrive shell and c1 hub (roller bearing and both steel inserts got turned into dust in about 10 minutes). I haven't gotten all of the stuff out of the tail of the transmission to see if this issue started there, or is the result of something not meshing up front. it can be difficult to judge whether or not the hubs have fully interlocked :-/

oh and for anyone intrepid enough, make sure you have some thick gloves when splitting the case, that aluminum can be sharp. I think i'll take a hiatus from car work for the next few days to let these gashes heal.

linuxman51
08-27-2008, 10:11 AM
the 2nd rebuilt box appears to be working, more on this sort of stuff later.

IceCold4x4
01-02-2009, 04:25 AM
any news kenny?

ElPiloto
01-02-2009, 05:40 PM
I think I'll go with a Lenco.

fsl
01-18-2009, 05:09 PM
Where can you buy higher stall torque converters for the aw71? I'm converting to aw71 in my 960 now, along with a turboed B234 :)

linuxman51
01-18-2009, 06:59 PM
any news kenny?

haven't taken appart the box that was in the car when i tossed the motor. I think its going to have some wear based on what came out of the oil. maybe it'll supprise me. it was a stock rebuild with some love in the valve body.

IceCold4x4
01-18-2009, 07:23 PM
sounds about like what mine should be, didn't find that much gunk and stuff in mine, case looks brand new inside. Though the bit of metallic stuff i found i'm sure has to do with the 3rd gear slip i did have. keep us abreast of the situation. Mine should be tested here in a few weeks. Blocks ready all that's left is a bit of wiring for ms and finishing my cylinder head.

I just hope i didn't drill out the 1-2 and 2-3 shift holes too big. But the tires should be able to take it. Just worried about how the rear end might feel about a shift that harsh.

thelostartof
01-18-2009, 10:55 PM
For what it is worth, 93' AW71 holds 300+bhp and 6500rpm just fine, still shifts like a champ, the 1-2barks the tires hard

linuxman51
01-18-2009, 11:16 PM
sounds about like what mine should be, didn't find that much gunk and stuff in mine, case looks brand new inside. Though the bit of metallic stuff i found i'm sure has to do with the 3rd gear slip i did have. keep us abreast of the situation. Mine should be tested here in a few weeks. Blocks ready all that's left is a bit of wiring for ms and finishing my cylinder head.

I just hope i didn't drill out the 1-2 and 2-3 shift holes too big. But the tires should be able to take it. Just worried about how the rear end might feel about a shift that harsh.

not really sure you can.

IceCold4x4
01-18-2009, 11:19 PM
we'll it doesn't bleed over into the other paths so we'll see.

linuxman51
01-18-2009, 11:36 PM
we'll it doesn't bleed over into the other paths so we'll see.

you'll be fine. you'll run into problems elsewhere.

linuxman51
02-17-2009, 01:38 PM
sounds about like what mine should be, didn't find that much gunk and stuff in mine, case looks brand new inside. Though the bit of metallic stuff i found i'm sure has to do with the 3rd gear slip i did have. keep us abreast of the situation. Mine should be tested here in a few weeks. Blocks ready all that's left is a bit of wiring for ms and finishing my cylinder head.

I just hope i didn't drill out the 1-2 and 2-3 shift holes too big. But the tires should be able to take it. Just worried about how the rear end might feel about a shift that harsh.


updates beget updates beget updates.
Transmission that came out of the car was on its way to being smoked (and fairly quickly, I might add), considering it didn't have a ton of abuse (but probably more than average). This was not surprising (at least not to me) however. The method and points of wear, however, were somewhat surprising.
C1,C2, B2 all had worn clutches. Ironically, B1 didn't (neither C0 nor B0 had any wear whatsoever, this was no surprise seeing as I never ran overdrive). B3, oddly enough, didn't seem any worse for the wear either (but then its really only used for engine braking, and I haven't been doing very much of that).

Of the worn C's, C2 had fairly uniform heat wear, no specific hot spots on the steels, just a general darkening of the frictions, C1 however is going to give me fits until I stop playing with these little transmissions, I fear.... It consists of a stack of 4-5 frictions and steels (the count isn't important to the story), with this obnoxious snap ring that separates the stack from the top "pressure plate". This is a designed thing to keep the pressure plate from disengaging the legs on the clutches for C2 (i guess at least, I can see no other reason for the thing being there aside from annoying me), so I am now dealing with uneven wear within the housing-not exactly sure how I'm going to try and tackle that one, perhaps one of the steels was warped, I'll have to spend some time looking into it a little closer.

Since the car is appart for the rebuild anyway, I'm going to go ahead and toss together another gearbox, this will have the A44D strong bits in an aw72L, and a couple day's worth of digging and modifying the valve body will surely ensue, but I suppose I could make it non-lockup by using a regular valve body, enjoy the benefits of a slightly higher stall and different gear ratios, without worrying about delining the clutch in the converter. Depends on the mood I'm in when I start working on it.

linuxman51
02-22-2009, 05:56 PM
talked to the transmission guy friday when I was in picking up new frictions, and mentioned the issue I was seeing with uneven clutch wear.. apparently this is due to a leaking seal in the drum(s). So while everything was apart, I went ahead and replaced the seals (this was.. interesting, since I don't actually own the right tool to compress the piston springs). all in all, not a bad ordeal but a bit tedious. Worked up some things to change next time I'm in there. This time around I think I got everything seated up correctly, I get fluid motion rather than the tighten-and-lock that resulted last time I stuffed guts from the 372 in the aw71.. getting the drums to stack up on the frictions is a fair bit harder than it would initially seem (and it was only... ~ .16 off, just enough to trash out a needle bearing on the C1 drum and cup a friction, as well as tearing up a couple of clutches). There's a neat trick to getting it right, I'll leave that as an exercise to those who would follow (which is probably... zero)

I also stuck the L bits on the front of the transmission, this lets me use the higher stall 16v converter and the L pump, which oughta do interesting things combined with the little bit of modification I made to the valve body. The object of the exercise was to try and not change too much so as to not be able to determine the source of any future failures

As stated in my build thread:
I noted that the clutches in C1, C2, B1 and B2 were worn, I took the time to do a quick mic check on them this morning and discovered that not only were they showing signs of heat buildup, but a fair amount of the material was worn off the frictions... there were none that were above .088 (new is .092), and the vast majority were between .075 and .081, waaay out of spec. I'm hoping this new build will hold a little better, otherwise this exercise might be coming to an abrupt halt.

L8 APEKS
02-22-2009, 06:38 PM
If I'm following correctly, two of your AW71 rebuilds have now burnt out/failed in a very short time...right?

So...what's causing them to kick the bucket so early? How much boost are you running on the engine, how much power are these boxes being subjected to in order to kill 2 of them in just a couple of months?! Are we talking drag strip launches at 25psi+ with slicks?

I know it's got to be a huge pain in the arse to repeatedly drop transmissions in your driveway, so thanks for the effort thus far. I'm hoping to only have to do it once when the time comes. Working under jack stands FTL.

linuxman51
02-22-2009, 10:40 PM
If I'm following correctly, two of your AW71 rebuilds have now burnt out/failed in a very short time...right?


From November 07 to the end of December this year I have burned up.. three. one rebuilt junkyard box (friction welded 2nd gear), one junkyard box, and one rebuilt transmission. I won't count the one I put together wrong. The second jy box went up in smoke during the first tuning session with the big turbo and intake manifold. This latest one might have had... 100 miles on it? No drag strip passes, strictly street and dyno tuning


So...what's causing them to kick the bucket so early? How much boost are you running on the engine, how much power are these boxes being subjected to in order to kill 2 of them in just a couple of months?! Are we talking drag strip launches at 25psi+ with slicks?


They can't hack it.. yet. Its not really a matter of boost, the setup made 465rwhp off the nitrous and 500 on, and it would appear that the transmission wasn't exactly holding on to it based on the heat transfer and rapid degradation of the clutches. No wholesale slipping, as there was a minimal amount of hotspoting on the steels, however the tangs on the steels in the 2nd and 3rd drums were all a pretty shade of blue.


I know it's got to be a huge pain in the arse to repeatedly drop transmissions in your driveway, so thanks for the effort thus far. I'm hoping to only have to do it once when the time comes. Working under jack stands FTL.

its not that bad when you've done it 15 times.

linuxman51
02-22-2009, 10:46 PM
biggest pita for me is getting the driveshaft loose. air tools and electric impact + 3 foot impact extension makes the rest of the process quick and relatively painless. might get taller jackstands and start using a furniture dolly to roll the box out from under the car.sliding tents to scratch up the cross member pretty well.

L8 APEKS
02-23-2009, 01:38 AM
My neck and back hurt just thinking about doing 15 trans swaps on jackstands. **** that.

I'm thinking my wagon project might see as high as 350 wheel on the bottle, so that's all it needs to handle. I don't think I have the money to make any more power than that.

You think a basic rebuild with the upgraded friction materials in a ~2600 to ~2700 lb car will handle that for a while?

linuxman51
02-23-2009, 08:29 AM
not sure. I haven't put upgraded clutches and steels in yet because i'm afraid it won't do much to alleviate the problem. If I can get the stock ones to hang around a bit longer, i'll switch to red eagle clutches and kolene steels.

slammin240tic
05-07-2009, 10:08 PM
I know im pulling up an old thread but i removed the check balls and shimed the acumulators in my aw70 and the front hub is very weak. its stamped steel i split myne and striped the spline on the output shaft. now im afraid that the new aw71 will have the same fate. is the aw71 forward hub stamped steel as well.

linuxman51
05-07-2009, 10:09 PM
hubs are bigger in the 71.

linuxman51
05-07-2009, 10:11 PM
unless you're referring to the actual clutch carrying hubs (c0, c1, c2), in which case I'm really curious how you managed to split one

slammin240tic
05-07-2009, 10:16 PM
No its not the clutch carrying hub . i split it where it splines on the output shaft . Really im not sure how to fully id what i broke but i had no drive only reverse.

linuxman51
05-07-2009, 10:19 PM
got a picture?

slammin240tic
05-07-2009, 10:22 PM
No the parts at my shop.i beleve its the forward hub

linuxman51
05-07-2009, 10:29 PM
you broke something in C1 then if its got reverse but no forward. well no there's no shaft there. maybe if you broke the shaft from c1 going into the od housing.. that might do it. Technically, by order of disassembly, c0 (overdrive, first thing that falls out when you pull the pump off) is the front hub. it rides on the front cluster/planetary set. if you broke the part that C1 slides into behind the overdrive clutch set, that part is bigger in an aw71.

try and get a picture.

slammin240tic
05-07-2009, 10:47 PM
Its after the planatary .once you pull the pump off its after the big drum thats held in by two bolts under the vb. when you pull everything out you will see a shaft i think its the output shaft and it splines into the hub i broke . has violent shifting caused broken hard parts in a aw71 for you yet ?

Led
05-08-2009, 01:26 AM
They can't hack it.. yet. Its not really a matter of boost, the setup made 465rwhp off the nitrous and 500 on

If you can get an AW71 to hold this kind of power you will be a Volvo wrenching GOD.

Seriously though, I would pay VERY good money for one of these boxes if you can get it perfected.

Later,
Stephen

linuxman51
05-08-2009, 07:57 AM
Its after the planatary .once you pull the pump off its after the big drum thats held in by two bolts under the vb. when you pull everything out you will see a shaft i think its the output shaft and it splines into the hub i broke . has violent shifting caused broken hard parts in a aw71 for you yet ?

no. sounds like the smaller parts of the transmission broke, either that, or you had something with a manufacturing defect. I've done a lot of wierd stuff to mine but haven't physically split anything yet.

linuxman51
05-08-2009, 08:29 AM
If you can get an AW71 to hold this kind of power you will be a Volvo wrenching GOD.


I don't know if thats even possible. the big names in Asin-warner performance can't get them to hold on to 500bhp for long either. If you want one thats built to the gills, IPT does offer it, costs around $3200 last time I talked to them (and no, they won't talk about what all they do other than 'upgrade the internals and the valve body')

Not Naturally Aspirated
01-21-2010, 10:06 AM
At risk of getting "flamed" for resurrecting the seemingly dead... Ive read through the entire "polishing a turd" and this thread, and I apologize for my ignorance in advance since I don't know a whole lot regarding auto tannies, however there doesn't seem to be a determination as to a most reliable build regarding the AW7X slush box. I understand that it depends on one's performance hp/tq goals & build, my goals are nothing too extravagant and/or extreme in that I'm shooting for at most 280-300whp at the end of this "project-build".

Question is, I have my AW71 sitting at my transmission shop, and I had the guy look it over and inspect it. He tells me that 3rd gear teeth are 50% worn and the 2nd & 3rd gear clutches/frictions are quite worn; I haven't gone to see yet. He's offered to overhaul it, but I was thinking instead of going with standard OEM clutches-gears and whatever anyone of you sees fit, are there heavier duty parts that I can have him install in lieu of OEM?

If so, I did see a reference made to Alto and IPT, are these the places I should contact (first hand knowledge please) for heavy duty gear/clutches/friction discs or do any of you have other/better suggestions?

BTW, I am doing the accumulator mod as well. The VB mob, I'm not sure since I can't seem to piece together "ALL" the info despite my multiple searches; I have found photos but the concise stepped instructions I can't seem to find.

Please help advise regarding the performance parts to be installed if any. Thank you.

linuxman51
01-21-2010, 10:10 AM
alto sells upgraded frictions and steels. Their catalog is on their website (altousa.com iirc). You're looking for A43D parts.

What teeth is he talking about? a quality rebuild and the accumulator mod is probably sufficient for most of what these transmissions will hold.

Not Naturally Aspirated
01-21-2010, 11:53 AM
Thanks I really appreciate your help and insights!

Regarding the "teeth", if it makes any sense, he was talking about 3rd gear, but as I mentioned, I know very little about the inner workings of these automagics...

Essentially, he mentioned 2nd & 3rd friction clutches (3 ea) showed some pronounced wear from slipping (I would guess heat/glazed) and, as I mentioned, he spoke of 3rd gear(s?) teeth wear... As well (this, and what's above, is what I'm paraphrasing from what I managed to scribble on a small piece of scrap paper) he mentioned the "hub" for 3rd gear. I'm sorry for not being more precise, I'm driving over to see this mess shortly so I'll be sure to write everything down and I'll bring a dig camera to take pics of these items. BTW, he offered to do all this overhaul, changing of the clutches + bushing kit for $695.00 with a 6 mo warranty, does that sound fair?

Thanks again for any input that you see fit...

Mike

Not Naturally Aspirated
01-22-2010, 05:54 AM
Well, I do have some revealing photos but... apparently the "rules" say that I'm not allowed to post attachments. :grrr:too much of a "risk" I guess.

Anyhow, for what its worth, I'm having all frictions and steels replaced (parts from Alto Red Eagle) + accumulator mod and if I can locate the allusive instructions for the VB mod, then I'll have him do that as well.

linuxman51
01-22-2010, 05:58 AM
Thanks I really appreciate your help and insights!

Regarding the "teeth", if it makes any sense, he was talking about 3rd gear, but as I mentioned, I know very little about the inner workings of these automagics...

Essentially, he mentioned 2nd & 3rd friction clutches (3 ea) showed some pronounced wear from slipping (I would guess heat/glazed) and, as I mentioned, he spoke of 3rd gear(s?) teeth wear... As well (this, and what's above, is what I'm paraphrasing from what I managed to scribble on a small piece of scrap paper) he mentioned the "hub" for 3rd gear. I'm sorry for not being more precise, I'm driving over to see this mess shortly so I'll be sure to write everything down and I'll bring a dig camera to take pics of these items. BTW, he offered to do all this overhaul, changing of the clutches + bushing kit for $695.00 with a 6 mo warranty, does that sound fair?

Thanks again for any input that you see fit...

Mike


700 isn't that bad for a rebuild. its a dirty nasty process. make sure he's going to replace the seals in the drums and all that (more than likely though, if its getting re-bushed, it'll get new seals as well), get a bigger transmission cooler, and make sure you have the kickdown cable set correctly. Might want to get a new one while the trans is getting rebuilt.

I think whenever I bought the hard parts it was around $250 and I don't think that included bushings and certainly didn't include any labor or anything like that.

Not Naturally Aspirated
01-22-2010, 06:39 AM
700 isn't that bad for a rebuild. its a dirty nasty process. make sure he's going to replace the seals in the drums and all that (more than likely though, if its getting re-bushed, it'll get new seals as well), get a bigger transmission cooler, and make sure you have the kickdown cable set correctly. Might want to get a new one while the trans is getting rebuilt.

I think whenever I bought the hard parts it was around $250 and I don't think that included bushings and certainly didn't include any labor or anything like that.


Yeah, he seems legit and a straight-shooter. He showed me all the worn steels and frictions + the hub had teeth notches (in series 3s per grove) as with most of the rings with "teeth" I spoke of were definitely worn and "notched". Too bad, I had some pics to upload for reference, perhaps for the benefit of other board members to know how these look when they get time-xed.

All the seals WILL most definitely get replaced as well. Hmm, new "kickdown" cable, OK I need to find where I can get one and a larger cooler as well.

I believe he was charging me $300 for labor in all and the remainder was for parts... but now, as mentioned, I will be furnishing him with the frictions and steels from Alto.

Thank you sir for your input

haltechsupra
05-16-2013, 06:29 PM
Dam, there's my answer! Great thread!

Daviticus
05-24-2013, 06:45 PM
So, since this has already been resurrected, I'll ask my question here ...

Has anyone actually attempted the BW55 bell housing on the AW4?

There's a '79 245 waiting to go out into the junkyard I work at, and we get Jeeps all the time [thanks Moab!], so I have no shortage of AW4 selection here. If anyone has done it I'd like to know the specifics, and if it hasn't, well I suppose I can pave the way on it.

Daviticus
08-28-2013, 11:28 PM
Ok, I cannot find or recall where I read here that someone slid an AW71L or 72L converter onto an A30-40LE or something of the sort and it fit. Am I bat**** insane or did I actually read that somewhere?

Come Tuesday, I'll be pulling a BW55 bellhousing and an AW71L converter, as well as an AW4 converter and looking at the feasibility of hodge-podging this stuff together.

linuxman51
08-29-2013, 09:14 AM
I did that. iirc it worked fine but one should double check of course. I never got around to adapting the 30-40 to a b230 but it wouldn't be that hard I don't think. could probably cut and weld the whole thing together if you wanted, and make it easier.

masswrecker
08-29-2013, 09:16 AM
I am also wondering about the AW4 due to the fact I have a spare for my cherokee that would be awesome in a volvo.

linuxman51
08-29-2013, 09:20 AM
basically the same thing as the 960 transmission, as is the toyota supra mk3/mk4 auto (various differences, however same basic design, i.e. aw71/71L/372/a43)

Daviticus
08-29-2013, 10:51 AM
I'm banking on the BW55 bell being shallow enough that a simple adapter-spacer plate can be used and still allow the AW7xL TC to clear. I don't know that I'll be exclusively using the AW4, more than likely an A340 as they're more commonly found 2wd. I have put an AW4 with A343 valve body into a Tundra before, so I do know they interchange enough for my usage. I do currently have a 4WD AW4 for mock-up purposes though.

Thanks for the confirmation linuxman51.

linuxman51
08-29-2013, 11:53 AM
the problem you may run into with the bw55 bell is that it might not be large enough for the lockup converter... the non-lockup bellhousings are narrower than their lockup counterparts although at a glance you won't notice..

Daviticus
08-30-2013, 10:38 AM
Good to know, thanks for the heads-up. I'll check for clearances in the yard once I pull the parts - hopefully things mesh. Plan B is to gut the bell and pump area of an AW70 and cut/shave it down to fit.

Daviticus
09-03-2013, 07:14 PM
Ok, so I tried it today, kinda. I can get more in depth in a bit, I just barely got home and have some business to attend to.

Pulled a Cherokee AW4, an AW71L, and a BW55 at work today. Tried and confirmed that the AW4 will accept the AW71L converter (going off of linuxman51's experience with the A340/A30-40LE). The Cherokee AW4 and AW71L converters are externally identical, save for the AW4 having a larger bolt pattern (only by 1/2 inch) and a slightly larger pilot diameter. Both interchanged between AW71 and AW4. Both transmissions have identical inputs.

The BW55 bell is the same depth as the AW4 Cherokee bell, however the pattern is NOT the same. They are the exact shape, but the BW55 is physically smaller, like a scaled-down version. No bolt holes line up.

My thought is to space out the converter from the flex plate using 1-inch square welded to it, as how Petty Cash Racing adapted a GM LM7 5.3 V8 to their AW4 using the LSx flex plate. From there mill out a 1-inch-thick spacer with the AW4 "big" pattern on one end and the BW55 "small" pattern on the other. This should theoretically allow the bolt-in usage of an AW4, A30-40LE, or A340 to a Volvo Redblock.

I'll dump the cache of pictures and measurements later. But there you go guys. It IS possible, just not 100% bolt-in.

740atl
09-03-2013, 07:22 PM
I've wanted to do that for so long but never had the time. Keep us updated.

Daviticus
09-04-2013, 02:02 AM
This is gonna be image-intense.

Converter comparison: AW71L Left, AW4 Right:

http://img542.imageshack.us/img542/7665/jh73.jpg

http://img407.imageshack.us/img407/1989/roh0.jpg

http://img703.imageshack.us/img703/3391/xtkb.jpg

Measurements: AW71L:

http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/7987/86uo.jpg

http://img62.imageshack.us/img62/4350/iilq.jpg

AW4:

http://img812.imageshack.us/img812/7295/kpx6.jpg

http://img543.imageshack.us/img543/2615/xe2s.jpg

Bellhousings: BW55 Left, AW4 Right:

http://img203.imageshack.us/img203/3667/qibo.jpg

http://img96.imageshack.us/img96/7546/98pc.jpg

And the issue (AW4 on top, BW55 on bottom):

http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/4421/st69.jpg

http://img823.imageshack.us/img823/2366/anud.jpg

linuxman51
09-04-2013, 04:50 PM
since you can use the 71L converter, I would think it would be easier to cut a 70/1/2L bellhousing down, cut down a 960 bell, and weld the two together, but either way, good luck.

Daviticus
09-04-2013, 05:15 PM
I would almost think the spacer/adapter route would be the simpler of the two, but both are solid options regardless.

My only reserve with using a 960 bell, is that I cannot find one anywhere here in Utah. I'm honestly amazed there was a '79 245 with a BW55 at my work. There is no shortage of 740/940 hardware though.

I'm going to take some time to monkey with it in my shed and see about coming up with a simple machined solution. I've got a line on a 2WD AW4 from a friend, but he has to pull it from his Jeep first.

linuxman51
09-05-2013, 08:29 AM
well actually, depending on where you cut it, you don't need the 960 bell, that's just the frame that I've worked with. the bolt pattern on the trans side is the same be it a toyota, jeep, volvo, etc, so it probably matters not where you get it from. The only reason I say it's easier, is you don't have to machine a spacer and then an adapter (not that either one is particularly difficult, and the bw55 housing being somewhat rare might make it easier if you simply made a fixture to center the trans on the crank, then you could ostensibly use a band saw or something even less precise to make the cuts and rock out.

I'd probably try and put it somewhere just after the bump for the starter, so you can get the width and don't get close into the flange on the trans.

Having adapted an automatic trans, it seems easier to me to not have as much stuff to be concerned with, that's all.

Daviticus
09-05-2013, 11:41 AM
That is true, I didn't consider that. I did grab the Jeep bell, and I do plan on tossing an AW71 into my car soon since my 70 has tailshaft play, so I'll have a 70 front case half to work with. I'll see if someone local is willing to cut and weld that for me, since I don't have the tools or knowledge to do it right. Worst case, I just find someone to mill the adapters.

Daviticus
09-05-2013, 05:46 PM
Since this is the Volvo Automatic Discussion, I wanted to toss this in here:

Has anyone been able to adjust or raise the line pressure in an AW71? I was doing a grip of reading on the AW4 and A340 and found that shimming the spring in the primary regulator valve brought up the line pressure a substantial amount. Looking at the scanned copy of the AW7x Green Book I have it seems like the PRV spring can be shimmed as well.

I figure if it were doable or popular I'd have read about it by now, but who knows. I might attempt it with the AW71 I have sitting. Any thoughts?

linuxman51
09-06-2013, 02:03 PM
i'm sure you can, it may have interesting side effects though.

VQ
09-08-2013, 11:51 AM
As I Fubar'd my AW71L rebuild on one seal, and then didn't fix it straight away, I have had a used box in for the past year but am finally getting a trusted transmission shop to build my box. He does increase line pressure in the valve body on performance applications for all boxes he does (and that means 800hp handling 4L60E boxes too among others). It's getting it right that I'll be paying him for.

Daviticus
09-13-2013, 04:20 PM
I think I jinxed myself - I say 960s are nonexistent here in Utah, and what do we get at work today? A wrecked '95 960. It was flat-towed in and for some reason was still rolling in park, but I don't think the driveshaft was pulled ... regardless, I'm going to look into getting the engine and transmission.

kz750
09-17-2013, 06:22 PM
Daviticus,
I am now a member to the form thanks to you, and your photos, and
to Brian Roth's who built the 4x4 240. Since I live in Nevada, where it snows and I also do alot of off roading, I plan on building a Volvo 240 4x4. I want to keep the car as much volvo as possible and potentially being able to fit the same tranny I love on my cherokee to the volvo, means I don't have to divorce a motor from car. something about swapping a different motor from another manu just seems disrespectful. No offense to anyone. and yet, here I am talking about making a 240 four wheel drive haha. okay.

Anyways, my plans are to keep the car low profile. Relatively close to the ground. with basic tires. almost like a sleeper 4x4. since 240's don't have the best approach angle, I wouldn't want it to look like it boast having 4wd.

I'm hoping that there is away to fit an aw4, so I can then use an np321 transfer case. Thank you so much again for shinning the light on the project I've been hoping to do.

Daviticus
09-19-2013, 01:02 PM
kz, glad to hear it!

I was actually using a 4wd AW4 for mock-up purposes sans t-case, but that thought had also crossed my mind after seeing Brian's wagon. In fact I have quite a few Cherokee buddies pushing me to swap my 244 to Jeep axles and I had considered it. Not sure if I still will, but the thought remains. As far as the t-case, there will be some issues with under-car fitment, as Brian stated in his writeup can be fixed somewhat with a little BFH love but the driveline as a whole will need to be lower than otherwise desired.

I do hope to have a Toyota variant [AW30-40LE] from a Cressida in my car come Spring, and the parts available for the swap shortly after. I will keep everyone informed.

kz750
09-21-2013, 10:24 PM
Daviticus, I thank you for your reply.
This morning I woke up and went to the local pick-n-pull and decided that i would tinker around a bit.
this is what I came up With.
http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z64/banesterloren/IMG_20130921_152823_zps918490ad.jpg
Thats the transfer case adaptor for the aw4 hanging out on the back of an aw71 volvo tranny.



only one problem. This is how the gasket surface should look in order to seal off the transmission.
http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z64/banesterloren/IMG_20130921_155343_zps4d6e08b0.jpg

But!!! the jeep adapter can be easily modified to have a sealing surface I believe. If i can have someone tig weld up a surface, then machine it with two bottom bolt hole bosses, and finally deck it flush.
I apparently ran into a Volvo tranny with a 25 spline output, so I could not fit the t-case on. (23 splinned) However, the tranny output may have to be cut back a couple inches. easy to do.

<a href="http://s191.photobucket.com/user/banesterloren/media/IMG_20130921_141337_zpsa58ad2b1.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z64/banesterloren/IMG_20130921_141337_zpsa58ad2b1.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo IMG_20130921_141337_zpsa58ad2b1.jpg"/></a>

Overall very excited. I'm checking Craigslist daily for a Volvo 240 in the Reno/Sparks area. I do not own one yet. haha. Still dreaming and want to be prepared. Can anyone tell me how to identify which Volvo 240s came with an 23 spline output? Also, anyone know if the tail flanges are the same among the aw70 and aw71? thank you all. sorry for the high jack.

Daviticus
09-23-2013, 10:32 AM
It's a valid thought, one that someone else has also thought of, so you're on the right track:

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/8978532-post1.html

I haven't read the rest of that thread for a conclusion so I'm unsure how it worked out.

To save you some headache though, the AW71/AW72 came in 4wd 4-cylinder 4Runners and Pickups, as well as the Toyota Previa and older [early '90s] Isuzu Troopers. All are passenger-side drop though, except the Previa, and that one is a viscous AWD with no low-range. Several have mated standard t-cases to the Previa before though, so there is apparently a way to get what you're looking for, via factory means.

From what I've been reading, the later Volvo automatics had the roller-bearing tail versus the bushing version [the one in your pics] and were the 23-spline variants. I think those started in '92. I'm not 100% concrete on that, however.

kz750
09-24-2013, 06:20 AM
It's a valid thought, one that someone else has also thought of, so you're on the right track:

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/8978532-post1.html

I haven't read the rest of that thread for a conclusion so I'm unsure how it worked out.

To save you some headache though, the AW71/AW72 came in 4wd 4-cylinder 4Runners and Pickups, as well as the Toyota Previa and older [early '90s] Isuzu Troopers. All are passenger-side drop though, except the Previa, and that one is a viscous AWD with no low-range. Several have mated standard t-cases to the Previa before though, so there is apparently a way to get what you're looking for, via factory means.

From what I've been reading, the later Volvo automatics had the roller-bearing tail versus the bushing version [the one in your pics] and were the 23-spline variants. I think those started in '92. I'm not 100% concrete on that, however.
I'm sure I'm in the wrong section and also bombarding into another topic. I am aware of all the other options, as well as the sidekicks and trackers. but I'm rather only looking for a driver side drop. The 240s series cam;e with Dana thirties in the rear, so I was thinking of putting one up front as well like Brian. Thank you for the more information. I think I'll leave this thread alone now