MS on b6304 ?

[DaButcher]

Hi,
I found one distributor for MS, which quoted me some 300£ for a soldered MS. (DIYAutoTune)
He says he can also draw a wiring schema for me (for the motronic55 plug), so I can solder it and plug&pray.

However, I have one question:
Can I "fool" the automatic aw30-43 into thinking the ecu is still there, so it does not go into "limp home mode" ?

Or do I have to first find a getrag and get the car manually converted?

Can I maybe do this:
fake signals to the TCM (transmission control module).
I dont know exactly what signal it gets, I think it's some kind of 5V signal, rpm and some others?

[MrBill]

check for "the poi" and his thread.

he MADE a control module
http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=47229

[500dollar744ti]

yup, do it, easy stuff, trans control can be hacked very easily or get standalone trans control... www.awshifting.com might have what you need.

that site if for jeeps but they use the same aw30-40le series trans.

[badvlvo]

Just like those guys above, it can be done. The Poi's car works well with MS.

[MrBill]

The work seems to really be all done for you, props to mr. poi for posting all of this and documenting it, its really information.

[Lord Tentacle]

the B6304 is one of the simpler engines to MS, especialy with a v3 board

Poi gives you the basic's you really need such as the resistance chart for the stock coolent temp sensor, the angles for the 60-2 wheel, and a crappy cold start map to work with

[the poi]

The work seems to really be all done for you, props to mr. poi for posting all of this and documenting it, its really information.
It is, isn't it?

a crappy cold start map to work with

That's generous:lol:

My current map is actually a lot better now--less pops but it doesn't start well (probably has more to do with my lack of idle control though, really) but probably won't be improved much after that--I'm upgrading to MS2/extra this weekend.

Then I'll actually put some effort into tuning. Assuming I fix my ridiculous fuel leak issue first.

[500dollar744ti]

get an idle valve hooked up, it will be the best thing you ever do for cold starts... i got my car starting on first try with 16 degree F weather and running all the way up to operating temp without any stalls. :oogle:

[DaButcher]

Ok, when I look at this:
http://www.volvo-power.net/div/b6304/skjemaer/ce14807.pdf

It seems the autotragic is connected to the motronic only through Connector B.

Connector "B"
1 .................................. Throttle Valve < this would be easy to wire directly to the throttlevalve?
5 ............................. TCM Response Signal < wont need this with MS, right?
6 ............................. Torque Limiting TC2 < what is this signal?
7 ............................. Torque Limiting TC1 < what is this signal?
15 ........................... Gear Position Sensor < Does this go through the ecu, really?
16 .................................... Engine Load < can this be emulated / extracted from MS?

Ps. the manual also says that engine load will not show a warning light, which I think means that missing engine load will not make the TCM enter limp-home mode?

Q) Would it be "foolish" to trick the stock TCM into thinking the ECU was still there?
Q) The poi: Do you sell the cirquit with the code?

I have emailed that other guy, http://awshifting.com/apps.htm
Thank you for tips, people :-)

oh, btw.. with the MS and wbo2, I can "autotune" and then drive it like that, right? Dont need no professional mapping?
I guess I could also fit it with egt?

[the poi]

Ok, when I look at this:
http://www.volvo-power.net/div/b6304/skjemaer/ce14807.pdf

It seems the autotragic is connected to the motronic only through Connector B.

Connector "B"
1 .................................. Throttle Valve < this would be easy to wire directly to the throttlevalve?
5 ............................. TCM Response Signal < wont need this with MS, right?
6 ............................. Torque Limiting TC2 < what is this signal?
7 ............................. Torque Limiting TC1 < what is this signal?
15 ........................... Gear Position Sensor < Does this go through the ecu, really?
16 .................................... Engine Load < can this be emulated / extracted from MS?

Ps. the manual also says that engine load will not show a warning light, which I think means that missing engine load will not make the TCM enter limp-home mode?

Q) Would it be "foolish" to trick the stock TCM into thinking the ECU was still there?
Q) The poi: Do you sell the cirquit with the code?

I have emailed that other guy, http://awshifting.com/apps.htm
Thank you for tips, people :-)

oh, btw.. with the MS and wbo2, I can "autotune" and then drive it like that, right? Dont need no professional mapping?
I guess I could also fit it with egt?You can skip the torque limiting signals fine, but the throttle position and load signals would need to be examined with an oscilloscope to see what they're doing. basically--you're in for a lot of work to make the transmission work as it does now. But it kinda sucks as it does now, cause it's designed to shift slow and lazy. I'd really recommend a paddle-shifter controller like mine with fully shimmed accumulators. The shifts are very fast, and really aren't that rough. And it's pretty simple to implement.

Also, I don't sell a damn thing, it's all public domain!:) http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=47229

Lemme know if you really wanna do something like this though, because I have more recent code that fixes a particularly annoying bug, and the circuit is simplifed by using high-side switches instead of the standard transistor switches

[DaButcher]

You can skip the torque limiting signals fine, but the throttle position and load signals would need to be examined with an oscilloscope to see what they're doing. basically--you're in for a lot of work to make the transmission work as it does now. But it kinda sucks as it does now, cause it's designed to shift slow and lazy. I'd really recommend a paddle-shifter controller like mine with fully shimmed accumulators. The shifts are very fast, and really aren't that rough. And it's pretty simple to implement.

Also, I don't sell a damn thing, it's all public domain!:) http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=47229

Lemme know if you really wanna do something like this though, because I have more recent code that fixes a particularly annoying bug, and the circuit is simplifed by using high-side switches instead of the standard transistor switches

yes, I dont care if it shifts hard.. I actually prefer that!!
Ps. I cant solder those small legs, so I need someone to solder that for me :P

(I can pay for it)...

I know I have to make the gear-switches, etc. my self, but I'm unable to solder those small chips and thingies, without destroying it all :P

I asked this guy: http://awshifting.com/apps.htm

if he will give me a good price, as he said that if one has a transmission he has yet to do it on, he might offer discount.

But I think that since you already did this, you know it works :P Kindof scared to buy something and then end up not using it..

[DaButcher]

Le crappie

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[500dollar744ti]

Le crappie

you can try to contact him through aol instant messenger, his screenname on there is llewxamtterb, possibly he may respond quicker there.

also the jeep vehicles use a seperate control box for their aw30-43le... i have one in my truck, it is super basic and really only needs a tps input, park/neutral switch and maybe one other thing to control the trans, also has a ground pin on the box to put it in performance mode to hold shifts out longer... i have the pinouts somewhere as well.

[DaButcher]

you can try to contact him through aol instant messenger, his screenname on there is llewxamtterb, possibly he may respond quicker there.

also the jeep vehicles use a seperate control box for their aw30-43le... i have one in my truck, it is super basic and really only needs a tps input, park/neutral switch and maybe one other thing to control the trans, also has a ground pin on the box to put it in performance mode to hold shifts out longer... i have the pinouts somewhere as well.

Can you ask him if he has an MSN adress?
Or ask him to add me: olav-x@volvo-power.net

[500dollar744ti]

Can you ask him if he has an MSN adress?
Or ask him to add me: olav-x@volvo-power.net

i sent him a message via AIM asking him to give me a call, hopefully if/when he does i can direct him your way.

[DaButcher]

Btw.
Here is the reply I got from extraefi:

Hi there,
I can make you a data sheet so youll know what pins to connect to what
on the MS ECU (simililar to what Ive done here for example
http://www.extraefi.co.uk/Drawings/PDF_Files/VW_VR6_wiring.pdf )

I cant wire up a plug for you though.
I see it has 6 COPs and a pair of ignitors that drives these COPs, I
would run them in a wasted spark format and just use the crank signal,
that would simplify the installation. An ECU with 6 spark outputs is
£330 plus £15 postage
Phil



So, I have two questions:
1) I see it has 6 COPs and a pair of ignitors that drives these COPs, I
would run them in a wasted spark format and just use the crank signal,
that would simplify the installation. >> Shouldnt I use the camsensor too, as reference? Or is this just as good?

2) An ECU with 6 spark outputs is >> Do I need 6 outputs? The 960 has two powerstages, cant I fire them in batch-mode, 3 and 3 coils? eg. so then it really only needs 2 outputs?

I know, RTFM, etc. :P But I read the FM and I think that questions like this might be best to ask the persons not gaining anything for selling it, lol..

So, what the dille yo! Does that sound like a good deal?
What do I need in addition? EGR and WBO2 + controller and then I'm set to go?

Will the "autotune" on the wbo2 suffice? Or do I need professional tuning? If I use 10% more gas than professional tuning costs, then what the hell :P but as long as its safe and does not pollute more than the b19a did (emission rules), it's a-ok for me.

[Lord Tentacle]

$330pounds is bloody pricey

1pound = $2

$700 delivered is asking a lot for some simple wiring and an MS kit

my total budget for MS was $320usd....

the B6304 has 2 IGN amplifiers on the intake manifold
each one does 3 cylinders and has 3 imputs
so you hook IGN output 1 from MS to input 1 of BOTH amplifier, IGN output 2 from MS to input 2 of BOTH amplifiers etc...

camshaft syncing is only needed for sequential spark or fuel, something i don't think you want to deal with quite yet

[the poi]

So, I have two questions:
1) I see it has 6 COPs and a pair of ignitors that drives these COPs, I
would run them in a wasted spark format and just use the crank signal,
that would simplify the installation. >> Shouldnt I use the camsensor too, as reference? Or is this just as good?

2) An ECU with 6 spark outputs is >> Do I need 6 outputs? The 960 has two powerstages, cant I fire them in batch-mode, 3 and 3 coils? eg. so then it really only needs 2 outputs?


This is probably my fault for posting my progress so unintelligibly (:-P). You only need the cam sensor if you're running 6 output COP, because it needs to know which of the cylinder pairs is firing. Using wasted spark saves you three outputs, and doesnt need a cam sensor, because it doesnt matter which piston in a pair is at power stroke or intake stroke, it'll spark both. Thus, you need 3 outputs to run wasted spark, because you're sparking a pair of cylidners every 120*. The ignition modules on the b6304 are just simple 3-channel ignition modules, so you'd pair the ign module inputs by cylinder pair (1-6, 2-5, 3-4), and connect those to the three spark outputs on the MS.

edit:// /\/\ goddamnit tiebird. get your tools yet?

[DaButcher]

$330pounds is bloody pricey

1pound = $2

$700 delivered is asking a lot for some simple wiring and an MS kit

my total budget for MS was $320usd....

the B6304 has 2 IGN amplifiers on the intake manifold
each one does 3 cylinders and has 3 imputs
so you hook IGN output 1 from MS to input 1 of BOTH amplifier, IGN output 2 from MS to input 2 of BOTH amplifiers etc...

camshaft syncing is only needed for sequential spark or fuel, something i don't think you want to deal with quite yet
Hmm, ok :-)
Where did you buy your MS then?

What about this one:
http://www.diyautotune.com/catalog/megasquirtii-system-pcb357-black-case-p-171.html
AND this wire-loom:
http://www.diyautotune.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=43
WBO2 and controller:
http://www.diyautotune.com/catalog/innovate-digital-wideband-controller-with-sensor-p-41.html

Do I then need anything else?
The MAP is built in on the MS, the b6304 has TPS and two knocksensors.

Btw. how are the b6304 knocksensors on the MS? I read that you have to tune them? Also, can one fit two on the MS? I know it only has one input, but can I simply just add both of them to the signal input?

This is probably my fault for posting my progress so unintelligibly (:-P). You only need the cam sensor if you're running 6 output COP, because it needs to know which of the cylinder pairs is firing. Using wasted spark saves you three outputs, and doesnt need a cam sensor, because it doesnt matter which piston in a pair is at power stroke or intake stroke, it'll spark both. Thus, you need 3 outputs to run wasted spark, because you're sparking a pair of cylidners every 120*. The ignition modules on the b6304 are just simple 3-channel ignition modules, so you'd pair the ign module inputs by cylinder pair (1-6, 2-5, 3-4), and connect those to the three spark outputs on the MS.

edit:// /\/\ goddamnit tiebird. get your tools yet?
Yes, lol.. Maybe I could pay you 1$ to make a shorter writeup :P
The other outputs can be programmed as I wish, correct?

I dont need any ignition amplifier, if I use the powerstages from the 6304, right? Then its all logical level?

[DaButcher]

OK, Brett from AWshifting mailed me today and said he has had some email problems.

My current controller will work with that transmission. In fact there is
already at least one person using it with a Volvo application, but thank you
for the PDF link, that will allow me to create more thorough instructions.

Thanks for your interest and let me know if you have any other questions,

Brett
--


Just waiting for some details...

[Karl Buchka]

I'm not 100% sure of the specs on an MS2, but I know it has support for four ignition outputs, so you can run wasted spark but not sequential COP. I definitely recommend that 12' pigtail, if only for the pre-wired ampseal connector. You can wire the knocksensors together without issue. I don't know if you need a special signal conditioner box for MS2, but you will need one if you intend to run MS1.

960 coils don't have built in ignition modules, so you you'll need to install those in your MS box. DiyAutoTune has what you need (they're called VB921's). If you can get coils from an S80 T6, they'll have the ignition modules built in, negating the need for the VB921's.

[DaButcher]

I'm not 100% sure of the specs on an MS2, but I know it has support for four ignition outputs, so you can run wasted spark but not sequential COP. I definitely recommend that 12' pigtail, if only for the pre-wired ampseal connector. You can wire the knocksensors together without issue. I don't know if you need a special signal conditioner box for MS2, but you will need one if you intend to run MS1.

960 coils don't have built in ignition modules, so you you'll need to install those in your MS box. DiyAutoTune has what you need (they're called VB921's). If you can get coils from an S80 T6, they'll have the ignition modules built in, negating the need for the VB921's.
Oh? The "gang" above, thought I could use the 960 powerstages?
How much do the t6 coils go for in the US, used?

[kildea]

960 coils don't have built in ignition modules, so you you'll need to install those in your MS box. DiyAutoTune has what you need (they're called VB921's). If you can get coils from an S80 T6, they'll have the ignition modules built in, negating the need for the VB921's.

yes .. but don't order the extra spark out "kit" that they offer as it will contain a 330ohm resistor with each vb921, while with wasted spark you'll want two of ~ twice that value for each of the 3 sets - since the coils will be in parallel, 680 ohm each are what i bought.

[Karl Buchka]

Oh? The "gang" above, thought I could use the 960 powerstages?
How much do the t6 coils go for in the US, used?

Unless someone you know is willing to give you a hook-up on them, it's not worth it. Wrecking yards seem to charge around $50 each for them. You're much better off going with the 960 coils and VB921's.

I've got 5 spare VB921's laying around that I'd give you a hook up on if you're interested. If you get a V3-based MS from DIY Auto Tune he includes one already, so there are the six you need.

Here's the MS-Extra manual page you'll need: http://www.msextra.com/manuals/MS_Extra_Ignition_Hardware_Manual.htm#2coils

[Lord Tentacle]

Unless someone you know is willing to give you a hook-up on them, it's not worth it. Wrecking yards seem to charge around $50 each for them. You're much better off going with the 960 coils and VB921's.

I've got 5 spare VB921's laying around that I'd give you a hook up on if you're interested. If you get a V3-based MS from DIY Auto Tune he includes one already, so there are the six you need.

Here's the MS-Extra manual page you'll need: http://www.msextra.com/manuals/MS_Extra_Ignition_Hardware_Manual.htm#2coils

should post in the wanted section more often then...
i've got 6-7 spares sitting around right now
i've been using 2 out of the 3 channels on each one and setting up a pair of them and using them for sequential/wasted spark on some hyundai's that the white block coils happen to fit on really well

[DaButcher]

Ok, I was like: yeah, now I know what to do!!!

But, then I got quoted some prices again.. lol...

Olav,

Thank you for getting back to me on this. You can use the Hall effect sensor if you want to run sequential coil-on-plug, so I will quote you for a unit configured for coil-on-plug, boost control, and fan control. This one uses VB921s, bypassing the Bosch power stage.

MS1357-C $350 Assembled Megasquirt-I with V3.57 PCB
MOD_1357IGBT6: Six Ignition Outputs through IGBT's (VB921) $118
MOD_1357TwoTrg: 2nd Ignition Input for Dual Trigger Applications $12
MOD_x357-VR_IN: Jumper unit for VR Ignition Input $0
MOD_1357-BOOST: Boost control mod-kit installed $25
MOD_1357-KSMS: Input for KnockSenseMS $10
MOD_1357-Relay: Relay Control Circuit, for controlling VTEC / FANS / VVT / TVIS / Etc $30
JimStim-C $95 JimStim diagnostic board
GM_BoostSol $24 Boost control solenoid
GMBoostPiggy $14.50 6" pigtail connector for boost solenoid
MSHarness $65 12' wiring harness
IATwPiggy $22.25 IAT Sensor
38NPT-Bung_S $8 Bung for mounting IAT sensor (steel weld on, or JB-Weld on)
TuneCable $5.50 6' DB9 tuning cable
USB-2920 $20 (Only needed if your laptop doesn’t have a true DB9 port)
Subtotal without wideband-- $734.25

You may also want to consider the Spectre eMS-Pro. It would need to use the Bosch power stages and run wasted spark, but it's loaded with features, including all the other mods listed above, a 4 bar MAP sensor, launch rev limiter, and more.

SP_EMS_7100 eMS-Pro Engine Management System $795
SP_Har_7151 eMS-Pro Wiring Harness $95
CLTIATwPiggy Coolant temperature sensor $17.75
IATwPiggy Intake air temperature sensor $22.25
GM_BoostSol $24 Boost control solenoid
GMBoostPiggy $14.50 6" pigtail connector for boost solenoid
Subtotal w/o wideband: $968.50

The wideband oxygen sensor is a very useful tuning tool. Almost all dyno shops have wideband sensor systems they can install temporarily when tuning your car on the dyno. It's almost essential to have a wideband if you are tuning a standalone yourself, particularly on a turbo engine. With a wideband sensor, you can also run at closed loop under boost and use the sensor to target a rich air-fuel mixture to keep you out of detonation. Megasquirt works with most popular aftermarket wideband oxygen sensor controllers. We carry the Innovate Motorsports line.


Wideband Options—

LC-1 without gauge $199 (you can still view real-time AFR and datalog AFR through your laptop)
LC-1 with analog gauge $258
LC-1 with DB digital gauge $289
LC-1 with XD-16 digital gauge $399
LM-1 with built-in LCD Readout $349 (good for tuning multiple cars, temp installation)

I think this will give you a pretty good start in the right direction. This quote is good for 30 days. If you’d like to place an order for the eMS-Pro, you can do so at www.diyautotune.com/catalog and it will calculate exact shipping costs (based on weight of your order) and accept all major credit cards securely. If you would rather order a custom ECU, we will need to set this up via email or telephone. We typically have a 3 to 4 day lead time for building custom units. I'll just need a shipping address and a complete list of what you are planning to order to get you a full shipping quote. We can take many different forms of payment on custom orders - we prefer PayPal or accepting a credit card over the phone, but we have other options as well. Let me know what works for you. Please let me know if you have any further questions; I'll be happy to answer them and get things squared away before you order.

Matt


Why did he quote me MS-I and not MS-II? Can it be mis-typed?
Should I go for this deal? or is it "more than I need"?

I think he set it up in mind with sequential injection and everything to the max :P
But if its set up, you can still set up in software to only use the crank signal right?

[the poi]

Why did he quote me MS-I and not MS-II? Can it be mis-typed?
Should I go for this deal? or is it "more than I need"?It's most likely an MS-I. They might not be releasing assembled systems with the beta code, and all the good MSII-Extra features are still in beta. That said, go with MSII! You have to re-tune everything once you switch over, so it'll be annoying to go through all the trouble of tuning your MSI and then retuning when you want the better resolution and future features of MSII. Send him back an email, tell him you want an MS-II box, with the latest MSII-Extra code if he's willing to do it, with 3 spark outputs for 6cyl WS, a fan control output, a tach output, and whatever other features you need. MSII-e may not do boost control yet...

[DaButcher]

It's most likely an MS-I. They might not be releasing assembled systems with the beta code, and all the good MSII-Extra features are still in beta. That said, go with MSII! You have to re-tune everything once you switch over, so it'll be annoying to go through all the trouble of tuning your MSI and then retuning when you want the better resolution and future features of MSII. Send him back an email, tell him you want an MS-II box, with the latest MSII-Extra code if he's willing to do it, with 3 spark outputs for 6cyl WS, a fan control output, a tach output, and whatever other features you need. MSII-e may not do boost control yet...
Ok, if I tell him that, then I have your setup?
So then I can use your msq? :P and only adjust parametres like injectors?

I dont REALLY need the boostcontrol, as I figure I'll just run it as high as possible, without deteriorating the turbos.. like 0.8-0.9 on those puny turbos will be more than enough, I guess?

ps. I have a buyer for my 405 head now (471$), so I'll sell that and may start investing in MS soon!

[Karl Buchka]

That quote he gave you is completely bogus. You literally don't need 90% of what he suggested. Not to mention he's screwing you on options. $10 for knock input? He's adding a single wire. $25 for boost input (that you can't even use yet with MSII)? That's a $5 option in parts. The money you're getting for your 405 head will cover the cost of an MSII, shipping, and leave you plenty of money left over for bon bons later.

If I were you, here's what I would get:


MegaSquirt-II Engine Management System w/PCB3 - UnAssembled Kit $247.00
MegaSquirt Tuning Cable (DB9 Straight Thru) $5.50
18" MegaSquirt Pigtail Harness $48.00
GM Open Element IAT Sensor with Connector $20.00

Sub-Total: $320.50


****... you probably don't even need the IAT sensor. Your car should have one from the factory. Chris, can you confirm/deny this?

Then I'll sell you my five ignition drivers for $35

So now you've got everything you need for ~$350.

[the poi]

Chris, can you confirm/deny this?


Denied. Get the GM cage sensor, I wired it in with unused AMM wires.

[DaButcher]

That quote he gave you is completely bogus. You literally don't need 90% of what he suggested. Not to mention he's screwing you on options. $10 for knock input? He's adding a single wire. $25 for boost input (that you can't even use yet with MSII)? That's a $5 option in parts. The money you're getting for your 405 head will cover the cost of an MSII, shipping, and leave you plenty of money left over for bon bons later.

If I were you, here's what I would get:



****... you probably don't even need the IAT sensor. Your car should have one from the factory. Chris, can you confirm/deny this?

Then I'll sell you my five ignition drivers for $35

So now you've got everything you need for ~$350.
I think I should buy a pre-soldered unit, seeing as I dont trust my own solderingskills.

[DaButcher]

Olav,

I'm sorry, but we have not tested the MS2/Extra coil driver mods in-house and do not
offer them in an assembled unit. We don't mind customers experimenting on our units, but
we do not feel comfortable offering the mods on an assembled unit as we can't support
them.

Matt


But, then I can buy a preassembled MSII V3 or the surface mounted one, 3.56, 3.65 or whatever its called, and solder the vb921s myself.

I guess I can solder the vb921s, but what I'm afraid of soldering is mostly the small chips and stuff.