MS Extra Daughter Card Wiring

[Nick]

I purchased the daughter card from GlensGarage w/ the VR sensor circuit by recommendation of 740ATL. I'm running wasted spark on using the DSM coils as outlined here:

http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=110786

Got it all set up and today I figured I'd spin the motor over and make sure that the spark was working so I could bundle up all the wires and make it look nice. Upon doing so, I got no spark, and no RPM/Cranking signal in Megatune. I took out the multimeter and checked the connections on the boards. First off, instructions from glensgarage say that the power source for the daughter card should be a +12v from the banded end of D14 (this works), a ground connection at JP1-7 (this shows LOTS of resistance between the MS ground), and a +5v from JP1-8 (this gets like 1.something volts).

http://www.glensgarage.com/extra/Kit_insert-MSnS_Extra_v2.pdf

Has anyone had problems with this? Is my board messed up, or do I need to change something to make the +5v work properly there? Should I just get +5v from somewhere else? I figure I can run the ground to the main MS ground, so that shouldn't be a problem, but this 5v signal worries me.

http://www.glensgarage.com/extra/

Thats the kit I'm using. Any tips would be great. Thanks,

[740ATL]

Hey man, I didn't have to do anything to mine. I just gave it 5v where it asked and ground where it asked... No 12v is necessary for the LM1815 circuit.

Do you have the output to pin 6 of U4?

[Nick]

Hey man, I didn't have to do anything to mine. I just gave it 5v where it asked and ground where it asked... No 12v is necessary for the LM1815 circuit.

Do you have the output to pin 6 of U4?

Yep, and I verified continuity. Its solid.

The 12v is for something else on the board, I suppose.

Where are your 5v and ground connected to? JP1-8 and JP1-7 respectively?

[740ATL]

Yep, and I verified continuity. Its solid.

The 12v is for something else on the board, I suppose.

Where are your 5v and ground connected to? JP1-8 and JP1-7 respectively?

Hey Nick,

Yup, I have my 5v from JP1-8. The ground however, I sent outside the box, through my aux 15-pin db terminal. I'm not sure that matters tho. I'm weird when it comes to grounds.

Do you have the two vr wires soldered in? Have you tried flipping them?

Mike

[Nick]

Hey Nick,

Yup, I have my 5v from JP1-8. The ground however, I sent outside the box, through my aux 15-pin db terminal. I'm not sure that matters tho. I'm weird when it comes to grounds.

Do you have the two vr wires soldered in? Have you tried flipping them?

Mike

Nope, just the one. I'm not going to run two. I think I'm going to disconnect that ground and run it outside the box. Something tells me thats my problem. I shall report back.

[740ATL]

Weird. I have the older generation card and it said both wires had to go to the card. I'd check it out.

[Nick]

Hmm, nothing. I emailed Glen, but we'll see how long he takes to get back to me. I may get fed up and go build your circuit, Mike. I went this route because I figured it would be easier. :lol:

[740ATL]

Hey man, I looked at the pin instructions in the PDF file you listed... on P5 sensor inputs, pin3 is vr- and pin4 is vr+... the vr- isn't the vr shield btw.

Mike

[Nick]

Right. Ive got the shield wired along w/ the knock sensor shield running to a ground point.

So I went through, and verified some connections on the board, then I tried taking the Ground for the daughter card and jumpering it (aligator temporary clips ftw) to my MS ground. As soon as I did this (w/ the MS already turned on), my RPM's spiked, the fuel relay clicked on, and I saw my test spark plug spark! I went over and jumped the starter w/ a screwdriver, and sure enough, the spark is good and strong... strong enough to jolt the **** out of me. I get my roommate out to watch the laptop and tell me whats happening, and I can't get it to repeat the behavior. It started drizzling out so I pushed the car in and called it a day. Not sure what the deal is exactly... but grounding that board outside the MS has made a world of difference. I think it may come down to a loose connection or something.

[RvolvoR]

i thought JP1-1 was +5v

[740ATL]

i thought JP1-1 was +5v

Nope, JP1-1 goes to X10.

[Nick]

OK, this is basically whats keeping my car from running.

I tried reversing polarity on the crank sensor. Did nothing. I tried a couple different grounding/5v sources on the daughter card. Nothing. The coils ignite for a second once I first turn the key to the on position, but nothing after that.

I'm thinking I might ditch this card and just do the radio shack deal like Mike did. Any other ideas?

[740ATL]

Nick, what are you doing for trigger points? wheel? 60-2 or 36-1?

[Nick]

60-2. I set it up exactly as in your how-to thread, on all marks.

[740ATL]

damn. I was able to get the GG unit to work on my first ride... I'd hate to see you have to make another. Can you post your msq?

[Nick]

http://nickflyman.com/242/megasquirt/242-2-5-08.msq

I'm going to make my roommate help me tomorrow and go over all the wires in that circuit. I've already done this, but I want to be damn sure before I give up and make my own thing.

I'm also going to see about getting another crank sensor just to be sure. I tested this one and it seems to be fine (multimeter while cranking the car). I've had this sensor for a while, kept it as a spare. I'm 99.9% sure its not that, but I may as well try another.

If nothing works, I'm pushing it into a lake. The whole car.

[qwkswede]

I had my vr sensor working nicely on my daughter card. Here is a nice closeup picture. I don't know if you can make anything out or not.

http://www.denverspeed.com/gallery2/v/cars/irene/Electronics/20070811-17_28_52.jpg.html?g2_imageViewsIndex=4

poke around through my gallery there, there are a few different angles. I wanted to make sure I remembered how it was all hooked up. Its pretty complicated

[740ATL]

Nick, are you using a ballast resistor pack with the greentops? Your PWM current limit % was at 85%... set it to 100%.

Are you using the tach output for a tach circuit or are you using the mitsu tach circuit? You only need to use the tach output if the mitsu circuit doesn't work.

And I don't know if it means anything, but your overboost protection was set to 0kpa.

Mike

[Booster]

ok, my intentions are not to thread jack.

what would be easier for someone who cant solder to well, & is just starting to learn ms

make 740atl's awsome "home brewed" board?

or

go with GG's daughter board?

is 1 better than the other? or is it really personal prefference?
/thread jack

[740ATL]

ok, my intentions are not to thread jack.

what would be easier for someone who cant solder to well, & is just starting to learn ms

make 740atl's awsome "home brewed" board?

or

go with GG's daughter board?

is 1 better than the other? or is it really personal prefference?
/thread jack

If your soldering abilities aren't quite there yet, going with the GG piece is a good bet. The GG piece also comes most if not all of the msns-e outputs and is a great value.

Technically, it's got the same stuff as the board I built (for the VR sensor portion).... which btw, is not my design... I just followed the directions on the msns-e page. My only contribution was to draw the circuit schematic as you would actually see it.

BTW... for soldering practice, pick up a MS stimulator kit and solder it together. Get a decent iron, even a cheap unit will work, get SMALL solder... radio shack has .032 stuff. Heat the iron, wet a bit of solder to the tip, touch the wetted part to the piece, dab the solder at the joint. The liquid dramatically speeds up the heating rate and the soldering goes faster. Give it a try.

Mike

[Nick]

Nick, are you using a ballast resistor pack with the greentops? Your PWM current limit % was at 85%... set it to 100%.

Are you using the tach output for a tach circuit or are you using the mitsu tach circuit? You only need to use the tach output if the mitsu circuit doesn't work.

And I don't know if it means anything, but your overboost protection was set to 0kpa.

Mike

I was planning on using the tach output, until you finished the article. I'm using some siemens 60 lb/hr high-z injectors.

I'll update the MSQ and go mess with it later.

Thanks qwkswede, I'll definitely have a look through what you've done.

[The Aspirator]

i thought JP1-1 was +5vNope, JP1-1 goes to X10.I always forget this, but on the V2.2 boards we count the JP1 pins using the square pad as 1, right? So looking at the board with the text upright, the square pad is on top. That one goes to X10. The very bottom one I think is where I'm getting +5v from.

I built my own VR and hall sensor circuits using Mike's schematics, and it's working great. But if you're a noob to soldering and board layout, just buy the pre-built daughtercard. If you get one resistor wrong then the whole thing won't work.

To the OP, my coils also fire once when I turn the key on. It's funny when there's a bit of fuel in the cylinders and all 4 coils fire when you turn the key.... POP! Mike said that I should power my coils relay with the fuel pump circuit, so that they're only on during cranking.

As to why it won't fire, try and figure out what you did that one time to make the test spark plug spark. The LM1815 needs a dedicated +5v, I got mine from the bottom JP1 pin, and I think it gave me like 4.97v or something. Ground should have no resistance. I think both of my extra boards are using the second from the bottom JP1 pin for ground, and the MS board is getting a nice meaty ground into almost all the top pins on the DB37.

Reversing the polarity of the crank (36-1) sensor doesn't really change anything on my car either, it just makes the trigger logger in Megatunix read a bit differently.

John

[Nick]

I went though and checked all my connections today. Somehow, the key got left on (isaac) on Saturday when I was messing around w/ it. So the battery has been charging. I added some ground straps for the engine. I think that might be part of the issue. I'll be messing with it more tomorrow.

[Nick]

Update. With school coming to a close, I'm having more time to work on this.

Bought a crank sensor from work and installed it yesterday while I was putting in the IPD cam. Got in the car, booted up the laptop, and voila! I have an RPM signal! Pulled a plug wire and whaddayakno?! I have SPARK!!!

So I go tweak the cranking fuel settings and keep trying to get it to start. I show a pulse width but no fuel is getting into the engine (plugs are dry). Thats an issue for another thread though.

[740ATL]

yay!