Stainless 8v Headers- UPDATE!

[Captain Bondo]

Greetings from the one-man sweatshop known as captain bondo AKA Watson Fab AKA SSAK- er. SS Auto... Kenny? :grrr::wtf:..:rofl:


My wife is literally calling me the one man sweatshop. LOL.

It is freaky being in the garage looking at them- like some sort of cloning experiment.

Anyways, although being behind schedule due to my stainless supplier turning into a complete ****ing retard, I am happy to say these are coming along great!



So first, an update on the prototype-

Some real mileage has been logged on the prototype now, including us blasting down to portland and back in 90 degree+ weather, etc with no real issues.

It has required some attention because 2 head studs broke- this was installation error on my parts and not directly due to the header.

What happens is the runners are big, and the welds on some of them where they attach to the head flange extand far enough to be under the nut/washer when you tighten them up.

What happens is it literally tries to tweak/bend the stud when you tighten it down becuase the washer is not mating up against a flat surface.

Using the thick volvo turbo "cupped" washers, with a small bevel ground underneath where the weld interes fixes it- so easy fix, but it is something to pay attention to. I will send some instructions with pics showing how to set this up right.


The new headers

These are not exactly the same as the proto.

The proto used right radius bends at the head flang on runners #1 an #3.

These use large radius bends everywhere.

This was done for 2 resons:

1)should make sparkplug and bolt access better

2)the short radious bends are 3x more expensive and hard to get (part of the supplier issues I had).

Some people though thwe short ones also represented a flow restriction, I disagree, but anyways I guess those folks should be happy now.

The only tradeoff now is that is isn't equal length (the proto is close). Probably a debatable issue anyways.

Ok on to the pics- also not one of them has a wastegate pipe which is a new thing.

Hmm... OK, pbase is being weaksauce... it won't creat thumbnails of what I just uploaded....

Ok photobucket here I come...


http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll214/WatsonFab/b2xx%20run1/DSC01091.jpg

http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll214/WatsonFab/b2xx%20run1/DSC01092.jpg

http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll214/WatsonFab/b2xx%20run1/DSC01093.jpg

http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll214/WatsonFab/b2xx%20run1/DSC01094.jpg

http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll214/WatsonFab/b2xx%20run1/DSC01095.jpg




Basically now I have to clean them all (also gives the nice even brushed look), weld 'em up, and have the flanges machined.

The hard part is done! :rockon:

[RedFridge]

Nice work duders.
I would have no problem giving you my hard earned cash.

[BB-Q]

Looking great Kenny!

How does the machine shop mill the flanges once the header's built? Have you made them a jig to hold them down? I'm interested because I had all manner of grief from a local machine shop getting that done. Ended up costing me a fortune.

[Ryo240T]

looking good!

[badvlvo]

Nice work. Very nice.

[amargill19?]

you're crazy man ::-D:

[Captain Bondo]

Thanks all- obviously they're just raw cut dirty pieces with cutting fluid all over them, they'll look much sexier shortly.




Looking great Kenny!

How does the machine shop mill the flanges once the header's built? Have you made them a jig to hold them down? I'm interested because I had all manner of grief from a local machine shop getting that done. Ended up costing me a fortune.


The flange is just clamped on the "webbing" of the flange between the runners- nothing special.

If a manifold is shaped such that it will be difficult to machine, I tack it up, cut the tacks so that I have the flange with just the first elbow of each runner tacked to it, weld the elbows to the flange, have that piece machined, and then weld it to the rest of the manifold (welds at the other end of each elbow won't warp it of course).


If this was a factory cast manifold you were having machined then I hear ya- they can take some engineering to fit in the mill.

[Captain Bondo]

Amar- that's exactly what my wife said. It is bizarre to walk into the garage and see them all lined up. Ypu want to look around and find the other six guys that must be working in the garage somewhere.:rofl:

[hockey930]

wow, you have just joined a very eliet group of people on turbobricks who actualy did what they said they were going to do!

[maxman142001]

:drool:

[Raz]

vurry nice! :)

[B-dub]

Killer man! Those are looking great! I'll be super excited to see your next round. I might have to try and get you to make me a divided system with two wastegates ;)

[volvoluvin]

Very nice Ken, very nice...

Doin' the 850 proto should be more funner... :-P

[Captain Bondo]

Thanks guys. I am interested to find out just how long it takes to weld one up once it is tacked together.

I want to guess 2 hours but it might be longer...

Phil, it would be funny if it worked out that way man- the same guy providing both guinea pigs. :rofl:

[volvoluvin]

Funny in a good way of course...

[Captain Bondo]

Funny in a good way of course...


Indeed! I need to invent some new bandsaw trickery to do the collectors. My favorite sort of activity! :nod:

[dl242gt]

That's awesome Kenny. I knew you were going to make an impressive product.

Every person that buys one is required to make at least 350hp. Lets have more fast bricks!:volvo:

[manbeard]

it may be a stupid question, but how are you going to get the tig rig in those tight areas...like in the middle of all the runners?

[Captain Bondo]

it may be a stupid question, but how are you going to get the tig rig in those tight areas...like in the middle of all the runners?

Your question should be how do I get in there, not how am I going to, since of course there is already a completed prototype that has been being tested for a month or so now.
;-)


I have my ways...:nod::cool:

Pics later tonight.

[Bob]

oh my :)

[manbeard]

Your question should be how do I get in there, not how am I going to, since of course there is already a completed prototype that has been being tested for a month or so now.
;-)


I have my ways...:nod::cool:

Pics later tonight.

:urgod:

[122s]

that looks fun to do for a day..


any longer, and i'd be sick of welding.. hahahahahaha


major props, looks great..


now make a header for my b20! hahaha

[Raz]

oh man. If you'd want to proto a upwards facing header on my car, I'd pay you uhm. Money. :) My new job makes me have monies, must be spent on volvostuff.

[hockey930]

that looks fun to do for a day..


any longer, and i'd be sick of welding.. hahahahahaha


major props, looks great..


now make a header for my b20! hahaha

Don't do such a thing!! 16v manifold first, put a real motor in the beast (by real I mean b230 wich isn't very real at all and negates my whole point)

[linuxman51]

Don't do such a thing!! 16v manifold first, put a real motor in the beast (by real I mean b230 wich isn't very real at all and negates my whole point)

know how I know you're gay?

[NChoy]

know how I know you're gay?

... you listen to Coldplay...

[hockey930]

know how I know you're gay?
because you sucked my peener and I liked it?

[linuxman51]

because you sucked my peener and I liked it?

well no, not exactly, more like it tasted like ****..

[hockey930]

well no, not exactly, more like it tasted like ****..
You know how I know kenny and I are gay together?

[Captain Bondo]

:rofl: Peener....

Anyways I'm not sick of the welding- at least yet.:nod:

It's like the equivalent of knitting for me. My brain is pretty much switched off, I just put some tunes on and relax. It's actually an extremely therapuetic escape from my day job- which I am already beginning to hate, just like my last 3 jobs. :roll: I need to ****ing change fields comepletely or something.

Maybe I can get enough fab work on the go to do it full time or at least chop the day job down to part-time or go subcontract.

Whether the next manifold is 16v, 850, or b20 is a toss up.

I know a guy locally who want to do a b20 turbo, so that may happen. There has been talk of a header on Phil's new T5R, but that is a ways off yet.

Of course once this first set ships the SE guys have volunteered to get some pics/measurements of the 8v header in a 16v engine bay, so it may end up that the 16v is next. It depends on how extensive the modifications end up being.

Progress on the run has not bene great this week- I am currently working at a site that is a 1.5hr commute each way, and it is a ****ing draaaag. 5:30AM wake up every day. Did I mention the new job is starting to suck? :rofl:

I should be able to eaily finish them up this weekend though, then a quick trip to the machine hsop and off they'll go :rockon:

[manbeard]

so kenny, how do you get the rig in those tight areas? i was messing around in class and had some tubing that was similar in configuration to what i saw in your pictures, and even with the smallest cup and some long-arcing, i couldn't get anywhere near to making a decent weld.

[Captain Bondo]

What problems were you having? Poor gas coverage of the weld? Poor gas coverage of the tungsten? Both maybe?

edit: material thickness? amperage? tungsten size? gas flow settings? cup size?

[manbeard]

i just couldn't get to the metal to even strike an arc in there. the tubing was maybe 1/8 thick 2 inch SS tubing. i dont remember amperage or gas flow... i was using a 3/32 tungsten and a #4 cup.

when i did strike an arc, all it did was goop up. i may have had the tubing wayyyyy too close together.


what machine are you using?

[122s]

:rofl: Peener....


I know a guy locally who want to do a b20 turbo, so that may happen. There has been talk of a header on Phil's new T5R, but that is a ways off yet.



i'd be interested in this turbo b20 manifold also.. :oogle:

[GrandmaSideways]

Kenny! What happened to your beautiful surgery room clean garage!?!?!?

Hahaha, well, I guess it's getting actual work done in it.
They look great. Will be on my short list after I buy a car.

[Ruckus]

This is how I wish I made my manifold... how many of these will you be making in the future or is it gonna be a custom per order item? may have to switch up my stuff, it is just too sweet.

[Super1800GTR]

mmm b20 turbo would be great. But what car would you base it off of? On a 140 it would be pretty easy, 120??, 1800 LOL < doable but probably not an ideal candidate for production purposes. I'm still waiting on the SC setup. Yeah...STILL. While I've been waiting I've been day dreaming of making an adapter for the stock exh manifold (like 740atl's (sp?) and I believe stealthfti (sp?) has something similar) and placing the turbo in the (former) battery tray. Space is tight though.

Nice product! Wish I had the motivation to do something that kick ass on my 242.

[klr142]

mmmmm.

[qwkswede]

I think those flanges are on upside down. isn't it supposed to look like the ss-autochrome ones?





Just kiddin. Thats really some slave labor cloning action there. Awesome work. I need to dust off my machine for the next little project. not sure what it will be yet. got a couple ideas. keep the inspiration flowing.

[coldfusion21]

Do you have any interest in doing a one off non-volvo?

[Captain Bondo]

Sorry for the lack of updates- my day job is kicking my ass. :-(

Anyways they are almost done- a few more hours worth of welding and we are set to ship!


Miniman,

Personally I cannot get a #4 cup to work well on 1/8" stainless. For this stuf I am at around 65amps, and there is too much surface area worth of hot metal that needs gas shielding. I use a #5 to get into the tight spots and even it is borderline. A #5 without 1/2" worth of stickout gets my in there. The welds are a little grey and not perfectly shielded, but they're clean enough. I use a #8 or #10 cup whenever I can.

Ruckus,

What did you do for your current manifold? I will be doing another run of these once these ones ship, so if you end up wanting one you will be able to get one.

Once the next set is shipped there probably won't be any more until fall though.

Super1800,

I would base a b20 mani on the p1800, since it has the least room and there is a local guinea pig. I suspect I will build and "adapter" like the one in that "world's strongest b20?" thread in performance. Well, but a litte cleaner looking of course. :nod:

Ken,

I was hoping to elicit an "are those flanges upside down" comment from someone! :rofl: Thanks! :rofl: Luckily my jig makes such shenanigans impossible. :cool:

Coldfusion,

Yes, plenty of interest in one-off non volvo. I have a few other locals who want weird stuff.

The only catch is of course that I am up in Vancouver BC and long-distance header building is not typically very feasible, I will generally need the car for a week or two, especially if it's getting downpipe, ic piping, etc (which you might as well have done at the same time really).

[amargill19?]

how 'bout that N/A redblock header :oogle:

[Bob]

bump :)

[amargill19?]

:rofl:

my n/a header comment killed the thread

[Mueller]

:rofl:

my n/a header comment killed the thread


'cause believe it or not, N/A people are even cheaper than the +T people so nobody in thier right mind would build a SS n/a header :)

[amargill19?]

lol

I bet the brickboarders would shell out

[Captain Bondo]

Sorry for lack of updates- I literally worked 15 hours yesterday. :rofl:

Good news is this project at work is done and my wife is gone to england next week... well, not that it's good news I don't get to see my wife for a week..:rofl:, but it means getting these out next week should be a slam dunk.

Ya, I say that every ****in' week. :roll::rofl:

N/A headers are a totally different game- IMO there is a LOT more to it in many ways.

Maybe I'll get into it at some point, but I see no immediate end in sight with respect to turbo apps, and they're really what I know and understand. :nod:

[BB-Q]

England's a big place- what area?

[GrandmaSideways]

I know a guy locally who want to do a b20 turbo, so that may happen. There has been talk of a header on Phil's new T5R, but that is a ways off yet.

Muahahahaha I knew Phil couldn't leave it alone!

lol

I bet the brickboarders would shell out

:rofl: Are you joking me?
"Hey I have access to NOS digital ambient temperature gauge kits, anyone interested?"
"I'd pay $50 for one."
"uhm..... No."



N/A headers are a totally different game- IMO there is a LOT more to it in many ways.

Maybe I'll get into it at some point, but I see no immediate end in sight with respect to turbo apps, and they're really what I know and understand. :nod:

Care to explain what makes them so much different, Kenny? I would almost think they'd be a lot more straightforward?

[Ruckus]

Sorry for the lack of updates- my day job is kicking my ass. :-(


Ruckus,

What did you do for your current manifold? I will be doing another run of these once these ones ship, so if you end up wanting one you will be able to get one.

Once the next set is shipped there probably won't be any more until fall though.



I made my own header, but it is a top mount and I don't like the positioning as much as you have yours set up, though I am not sure on the direction my car is gonna go, so don't count on me.

[Chuck W]

So, not to sound like a total Volvo noob...but what engines do those fit?

Nice-looking work BTW.

[GrandmaSideways]

So, not to sound like a total Volvo noob...but what engines do those fit?

Nice-looking work BTW.

B21 and newer - I think?
I'm not a total expert.

[Ruckus]

So, not to sound like a total Volvo noob...but what engines do those fit?

Nice-looking work BTW.

they fit 8v red blocks, which are the ohc 4 cylinders.

[Captain Bondo]

BBQ,

My wife's Grandmother and some aunts and uncles are in the Bexhill/East Sussex area. She's just over there for a week for a quick visit (yay airmiles!).


Ruckus,

Got any pics? I'm always interested to see what other folks are up to! :)

Sideways,

Turbo headers are trickier from a fabrication standpoint due to durability/thermal concerns, and from a packaging standpoint, but I know what needs to be done in terms of collector design theory and etc in order to build something that represents a good performance improvement.

NA headers rely on a lot of crazy resonance stuff that I have never spent the time to really understand on a level deep enough to make me qualified to try to design one. :nod:

CHuck,

ya these are for B21/23/230 engines

[GrandmaSideways]

Ah, that makes sense. Never thought about it like that!

[Chuck W]

I see. This crap (Volvos) is all new to me, so I'm not sure what interchanges w/ what, etc.

Not sure if there was another thread discussing these, but what are you getting out of them?

[joe90]

Can we get to see new pics?!!!

[GrandmaSideways]

I see. This crap (Volvos) is all new to me, so I'm not sure what interchanges w/ what, etc.

Not sure if there was another thread discussing these, but what are you getting out of them?

Well, swapping from this manifold;
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v173/redstripe302/For%20Sale/P5061012.jpg
To this manifold (a 90+ )
http://www.samsteffansson.se/products/images/competition/95082549.jpg

Is said to yield about 10-15 hp - and definitely positive gains on the butt dyno.
Those with no cracks go from $60-$100.

These beautiful stainless squids likely flow even better.
So though I know nothing about these headers, and I'm certainly not in a position to comment on what works best, this is all from what I've read and heard.
I would imagine they're going to outperform the stock stuff. Plus they be ballin'!

On a similar note, here's a similar stainless steel manifold...
http://www.dp-engineering.com/EN/products/exhaust_manifolds/dp/volvo/topmount_8v.php
Look at the price!

[Booster]

how much 1 of these bad boys go for?

[Ruckus]

Ruckus,

Got any pics? I'm always interested to see what other folks are up to! :)



I will try and take some pics tonight for you, don't think I have any with it outside of the car, the basic design idea was from the pro-turbo headers, but the runners have a bit different path, probly not the most ideal flow design seeing this is my first, and a couple of kinks. I would do it alot different next time around. But I get some pics for you.

edit: all I have is in car pics right now but here they are, the wg is mounted on the front venting to the atmosphere, makes the car sound like a space ship taking off.

http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r178/erikb_7/IMG_9123.jpg
http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r178/erikb_7/IMG_9125.jpg
http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r178/erikb_7/IMG_9142.jpg

[PRVersion]

good looking work there!

[Captain Bondo]

Thanks guys.

Some new pics- 2 of them are 95% done and should ship friday.

The second 2 will ship next week.

Some decent pics, either my work is getting better or my photography skills are getting better. :rofl:

Welding the runners to the flange:

http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll214/WatsonFab/b2xx%20run1/DSC01103.jpg

Wastegate Pipe:

http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll214/WatsonFab/b2xx%20run1/DSC01104.jpg

Where the tubes meet up (for miniman in particular):

http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll214/WatsonFab/b2xx%20run1/DSC01102.jpg


As viewed form the other side:

http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll214/WatsonFab/b2xx%20run1/DSC01106.jpg

Another of the wastegate pipe (multiple pics of thew wg pipe since this is the "new" part relative to these headers):

http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll214/WatsonFab/b2xx%20run1/DSC01109.jpg


Cheers!

[linuxman51]

lookin good. Sooo when can I pester you about a TS 16v version? I might need bigger runners too..

[Captain Bondo]

lookin good. Sooo when can I pester you about a TS 16v version? I might need bigger runners too..


Bigger than 1-5/8" ID eh? :omg:

IMO they're borderline too big as it is. :rofl:

edit: in fact, I've been waiting forsomeone to say that. Maybe the pics don't convey the size of the runners...

I want to do the TS 16V... I seem to think one of the 8v headers is headed out to your neck of the woods? MrSteve's maybe? If so hopefully you can take a pic of it stuck in a 16v engine bay to give me apoint of reference.


As much as I hate to say it we might need to go top mount on the 16v one- just to gain max turbo clearance for the gt40r & hx50+ type of folks...


On a somewhat unrelated note I have been thinking about offering these in thin wall as well... durability is a bigger question mark there though...

[Ryo240T]

Any new photos? I am like a kid at Christmas

[242GTMD]

I want to do the TS 16V... I seem to think one of the 8v headers is headed out to your neck of the woods? MrSteve's maybe? If so hopefully you can take a pic of it stuck in a 16v engine bay to give me apoint of reference.

MrSteve's is headed out here to MD. I will (hopefully) test fit it in my 242 and take pics.

[manbeard]

oh damn man. those welds look amazing considering they are in such tight spots. looks awesome! hopefully i'll be able to do that here shortly.

[Captain Bondo]

I'll throw some new pics up tomorrow- the first 2 are completely done now, just need the flanges skimmed. :nod:

The second 2 are close behind. I am really picking up speed on building these now, yay! :cool:

[Captain Bondo]

I'm running out of interesting pics to take. :rofl:

Here are a few of the first 2 that are done now minus flange machining. I also need to clean the ports up at the flanges and I decided I might as well make braces for them too since it's pretty easy.

I am tempted to somehow incorporate a wastegate pipe brace too, But I don't know if there is a clean way of doing it...

I also took some pics of my new TIG torch, which kicks all kinds of ass. I had one before that I sold wwith my old TIG welder, I finally broke down and bought another one. I wouldn't use anything else now. Man I forgot how great they are.


Flange welds:

http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll214/WatsonFab/b2xx%20run1/DSC01122.jpg

I had better luck minimizing flange distortion this time. Still not perfect but I'm not really worried about perfect, it's just that less means it requires less passes/time to machine. I am working on a better fixture for flange welding in general...

Not a great pic but gives an idea:

http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll214/WatsonFab/b2xx%20run1/DSC01127.jpg

The HAZ is a little all over the place, because I welded it in small sections. Pretty nice and small though given it is 1/8" being welded to 3/8".


View from the back:

http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll214/WatsonFab/b2xx%20run1/DSC01129.jpg

You can see that the elbows welded to the flange are not all 100% centered, I shift them slightly down on purpose on #2 and #3 to help access. This cleans up easy with a dies grinder for a perfect transition.

Obligatory arty collector shot (note nice small, even HAZ):

http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll214/WatsonFab/b2xx%20run1/DSC01132.jpg

Ok a pic of the torch:

http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll214/WatsonFab/b2xx%20run1/DSC01131.jpg

Oh and miniman that is a #4 cup, EDIT:duh, I just noticed you can clearly see the big "4" ROFL. /EDIT with the gas lens setup I cna get it to work ok, but the filler rod has to be kept very close in to the puddle since the actual size of the area getting gas coverage is fairly small.

But I can stick the tungsten out of that thing 3/4" and still get reasonable coverage for tight spots. I have a #7 cup that is the old standby that I generally use when access is not restricted.

Both cups seems to like 15-20cfm.


Anyways, these were a struggle at first and things went slow, but I have really gotten into the swing and I'm looking forward to doing a second run!

Then i am going to finish my own damned car. :rofl:

Then it will be either a 16v, b20, or 850 app.

:cheers:

[volvoluvin]

Kenny, that is looking great, nice work bud!

Love the new welder too...that's gotta make life a whole lot easier...

And yes, down the road, I will donate my car for the header...

[JW240]

Looking good as always :rockon:

nice torch! im looking for a new torch as well, water cooled, up to 250 Ampere. is this one water cooled? And is it as usable as a regular one for the normal work?

[Captain Bondo]

Thanks guys!

I don't have a water cooler unfortunately, but you can get a watercooled version of the exact same torch, it is rated for at least 250amps IIRC, so you could use it for everything no problems.

My aircooled one however wouldn't live at that kind of amperage- the watercooling makes a big difference.

When welding thicker aluminum I'll have to switch back to my old clunky one, but if my new one was watercooled I wouldn't have to. Eventually I will go that route, I would like to get into an inverter based machine so I will probably do it then.

You know, the next time I have $3k floating around to replace a tool I already have that already worksm plus explain it to the wife. :rofl:. Hard to justify unfortunately- I'd rather keep the crusty old welder and buy a little milling machine.

Ah well it is fun to have a long list of toys on the shopping list. :cool:

[Captain Bondo]

OK so I forgot a critical step in the manufacturing process. The technical term for this process is caled "de-sproinging". :rofl:

I talk about the issues of headers and "locked in stresses" here:

http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=139931

Basically there are forces locked up in the runners when you use a 1 piece head flange.

When you then vibrate and heat cycle the header, these stresses try to seek out the weakest points in the header (stress risers) and cause cracks.

So, after they are done, I cut in between the flanges. At which point they go "SPROING!" and try to eat your bandsaw blade.

Here is a pic after cutting:

SPROING!

http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll214/WatsonFab/b2xx%20run1/q45%20throttle%20body/DSC01133.jpg

that 1/8" of deflection represents probly close to 100lbs (:omg:) of force trying to create a crack. No wonder one piece stuff dies an early death, eh?

Here is a picture of it realigned (aka desproinged :rofl:)- the rightmost runner may need just a touch more, but once I get to within 1mm or so I generally call it good as it is hard to straighten to within a tighter tolerance than that without overshooting, at least for me). Note the slight gaps are supposed to be there, I try to get these the width of the bandsaw blade:

http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll214/WatsonFab/b2xx%20run1/q45%20throttle%20body/DSC01144.jpg




Closeup example of how one of the flanges that sproinged th most lined up after cutting:

http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll214/WatsonFab/b2xx%20run1/q45%20throttle%20body/DSC01134.jpg

and a closeup of the same joint after straightening:

http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll214/WatsonFab/b2xx%20run1/q45%20throttle%20body/DSC01146.jpg



The straightening process is tricky but it just takes a little practice. I easy fixed the 2 finished headers in a couple of hours.

Also made one of the braces:

http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll214/WatsonFab/b2xx%20run1/q45%20throttle%20body/DSC01148.jpg

http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll214/WatsonFab/b2xx%20run1/q45%20throttle%20body/DSC01147.jpg

http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll214/WatsonFab/b2xx%20run1/q45%20throttle%20body/DSC01149.jpg


Nothing spectactular but I think it helps damp some of the engine resonance and they take 20 minutes to make so might as well. ::wiggle:


If the machine shop can machine these tomorrow, I will get them done and they can ship wednesday.

If not, it'll be some time this week. The second 2 will go next week.

[PRVersion]

are you making short passes to minimize distortion? i know it can be more of a hassle, but...

[Captain Bondo]

are you making short passes to minimize distortion? i know it can be more of a hassle, but...


If you think 1/8" of distortion over ~20" of runner length, on 2" stainless pipe, with 4 or 5 weld joints isn't minimizing distortion... well... you must be very good.

[PRVersion]

i got pretty good at it...i made a whoooole bunch of double-jacketed pipes between 4 feet and 11 feet long -some of which had 3+ right angles- for The Chocolate Factory in seattle. it's up off leary way in freemont (in the old red hook brewery) and they do tours during the week, so if you're passing thru and you want to see my handiwork just go in there and look up :lol:

i'm also not suggesting you're doing it wrong or anything, not by a longshot. your headers are beautiful and it's been long enough since i've done any tig that it might take me a couple weeks to get back to where you are with them. ;-) i was more curious about your technique. i learned to tack everything possible first, then on something like that where stresses and distortion can become an issue i was taught to make 3/4 to 1" passes, alternating places so that each pass more or less cancelled out the last pass' distortion.

have you ever done this professionally or just on your own time?

[Captain Bondo]

You points are valid, but honestly, it takes and hour to cut one and straighten it, and then I know that all is well.

I am certain it would take me way longer than that to do lots on tiny welds back and forth on opposite sides, etc. Plus I like to avoid excessive stops/starts.

I weld pipe like a pipwelder generally does when they can roll the pipe, weld uphill from 9 o clock up to 12, then from 3 clock up to 12.

Then flip, and do it again. Some of the harder to access joints have to be done in smaller increments just due to access.

But really this isn't a problem I am trying to solve, no matter how it was welded I would want to cut it just so I know for sure. It doens't represent a huge amount of time in the overall build process.

Also, while I've spent a number of years working jobs where fabricating was a major component, but I am certainly no pipe welder.

I have a long ways to go in the welding skill department.

[volvoluvin]

I have a long ways to go in the welding skill department.

Now that's a load of TURD comment...

[qwkswede]

Hey Kenny, what is your straightening process? I did some flange cutting on one of my headers. And Im undecided on the merit of separating the flanges. If the headers make it past the first few severe heat cycles on the engine, I have noticed that the stresses relax at that point too. I have put headers on with a little bit of mis-alignemnt in the individual flanges, and then taken them off a couple weeks later to find them perfectly flat.

And getting stainless tubing hot enough to bend and straighten with a torch is really difficult.

[Captain Bondo]

Nice to have you weigh in on this since I know you've been experimenting as well- interesting observation- I have wondered if they actually "normalize" via exhaust heat.

I suppose it is possible- it's hard to model. I had Phil's prototype off a few weeks ~1500 miles I think after install (no issues with the header- broken stud due to bonehead install on my part). and nothing had moved at all (it fit a little tight on the studs initially, and it did not relax or change at all).

I don't actually bend them, that'd be hard for sure.

What I do is I go over about 1"-1.5" worth of weld with the tig, adding a little filler to keep the chromium in there. The runner moves on its own as it cools.
This is essentially flame straightening via tig.

The trick is to apply the appropriate amount of heat at the appropriate weld joint, at the appropriate spot on the weld joint.

Are you bracing your manifolds these days? How have things beenm holding up?

[qwkswede]

Interesting technique. That would take some experimenting to perfect I'm sure. The tube usually moves toward the direction that you heat, so you just pick your side and fre-flow that bead huh? Cool.

Yeah, the header on my car is 316, and it has some bracing. I have about 5000 miles on it and it has been just perfect. The 304 header that is on Noah's car is the one that had some problems. It is the one that has also "normalized." I also think that the driver really knows how to put some heat into a header. .. . i.e. foot down all the time. I just went back and added some bracing to that one and hopefully it will help things last longer. The wastegate tube has cracked 2 times now. And there is a flex tube on the discharge. I don't quite understand it. It seems the 304 stainless has become quite brittle from the heat and age. It doesn't usually crack on a weld. Its weird.

edit

I also want to try to do a 321 header one of these days. Its just so dang expensive....

[Captain Bondo]

Agreed on 321.

If this was a Viper forum and we all made 120k a year that's what they'd be made from. :rofl:

The steel must be absorbing carbon, and the sensitized heat affected zone that is already brittle gets worse.

304L and careful welding should help- Phil's has been great and that included a pretty hard run from up here down to portland and back in very hot weather.

Don't think he drives it much these days though so I don't know what it has accumulated for mileage.

I am considering a brace for the wastegate pipes as well...






Interesting technique. That would take some experimenting to perfect I'm sure. The tube usually moves toward the direction that you heat, so you just pick your side and fre-flow that bead huh? Cool.

Yeah, the header on my car is 316, and it has some bracing. I have about 5000 miles on it and it has been just perfect. The 304 header that is on Noah's car is the one that had some problems. It is the one that has also "normalized." I also think that the driver really knows how to put some heat into a header. .. . i.e. foot down all the time. I just went back and added some bracing to that one and hopefully it will help things last longer. The wastegate tube has cracked 2 times now. And there is a flex tube on the discharge. I don't quite understand it. It seems the 304 stainless has become quite brittle from the heat and age. It doesn't usually crack on a weld. Its weird.

edit

I also want to try to do a 321 header one of these days. Its just so dang expensive....

[Volvorules]

I am considering a brace for the wastegate pipes as well...

Probably a good idea. Mine broke off with no bracing, had a slip-joint where the dump tube meets the downpipe. Plenty of room to move, but I think it was just too heavy for all the heating/cooling going on in that area. Here's a pic:

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y300/Volvokiller/DriftCar/2006_0615ODS20060024.jpg

[PRVersion]

You points are valid, but honestly, it takes and hour to cut one and straighten it, and then I know that all is well.

sorry, man i didn't mean to run you over or question your methods or anything. i was just kind of musing, really. :)

your shiz is obviously going to work out well, i can't wait to see these things on some cars helping make the big numbers :volvo:

[Captain Bondo]

sorry, man i didn't mean to run you over or question your methods or anything. i was just kind of musing, really. :)

your shiz is obviously going to work out well, i can't wait to see these things on some cars helping make the big numbers :volvo:

No I hear ya man, and I'm no expert. If I was I wouldn't be selling these so cheap, I'm learning too and it's always good to hear other folks experiences.

These are still experimental and I appreciate any help to make the most solid units possible.

:cheers:




Rob, thanks for the pic!

That is crazy- I am going to figure something out. it's tough because they tend to have a lot of leverage on them to go along with the vibration.

The only option looks like bracging it to the manifold itself- namely #4 runner. I'd really like to avoid that, I'd rather have a seperate bolted on brace of some sort that allows some movement...

Anyways they are at the machine shop now, so wednesday or thursday they should be mahcined, and then they're done other than a brainwave wastegate brace of some sort which is no big deal...

[PRVersion]

The only option looks like bracging it to the manifold itself- namely #4 runner. I'd really like to avoid that, I'd rather have a seperate bolted on brace of some sort that allows some movement...

really? (i have two different 200-series cars and neither with an OHC redblock :-P) there's just nothing else on that side of the engine to bolt/brace it to in a reasonable fashion?

what about the engine mount, or the points that the factory turbo and brace hooked to?

[The Aspirator]

Kenny your de-sproinging technique is brilliant!

[Captain Bondo]

really? (i have two different 200-series cars and neither with an OHC redblock :-P) there's just nothing else on that side of the engine to bolt/brace it to in a reasonable fashion?

what about the engine mount, or the points that the factory turbo and brace hooked to?

Not really, and keep in mind it's not like I have a 200 series with a redblock at hand either bud. My 240 has a T6 motor in it. ;-)

I build these from a jig- so adding anything that references a point on the engine means I have to find a guinea pig car, build it, and then modify the jig so it can be copied.



John,

I realized yesterday the de-spoinging is can be greatly improved actually. I just need to wel the manifold completely, except at the head flange (just tack them).

Then cut the tacks. And an move the runners as need to they line up on the flange. Weld it. Done. No need to cut and then wonder if it will still fit back on the head studs. :ninja:


The first 2 are back from the machine shop, so I am going to sort out some wastegate pipe bracing (I am thinking just some cool gussets at the moment) and I'll ship thme on saturday.

Wee!

[Volvorules]

Sweet, glad to see they are moving right along Kenny. Closer to getting those pics/measurements for the 16V ones :)

Here's a horrible pic of the braces that were added to my WG pipe:

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y300/Volvokiller/DriftCar/DSCF2781.jpg

[Lord Tentacle]

that solid or hollow pipe?^^

[Sp3aK]

http://mathforum.org/workshops/philly.usp/sum2001/prek.2/6triangles.2.gif

Triangles... it's the only way.

[Captain Bondo]

LOL, well it did end up triangular.

It's not quite as beastly as Rob's- but I think it should help, and welding right to the number #4 runner would have a lot of potential for the brace cracking due to expansion/contraction. It will want to break around the edge of the weld at the "heat affected zone"- so by adding support so that a stress riser can't spread right around the tube should work.

I think it is a decent compromise:



mocked up:

http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll214/WatsonFab/b2xx%20run1/DSC01158.jpg

side view:

http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll214/WatsonFab/b2xx%20run1/DSC01159.jpg

weld 'er up:

http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll214/WatsonFab/b2xx%20run1/DSC01160.jpg


a close up of a stitched weld (takes 2 passes to do a proper lap joint here):

http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll214/WatsonFab/b2xx%20run1/DSC01161.jpg

so, these 2 are basically done. the other 2 a close too.

[JW240]

very nice solution for the WG pipe support, good spot on the collector/tube wall to connect to :nod:

Thanks guys!

I don't have a water cooler unfortunately, but you can get a watercooled version of the exact same torch, it is rated for at least 250amps IIRC, so you could use it for everything no problems.

My aircooled one however wouldn't live at that kind of amperage- the watercooling makes a big difference.

When welding thicker aluminum I'll have to switch back to my old clunky one, but if my new one was watercooled I wouldn't have to. Eventually I will go that route, I would like to get into an inverter based machine so I will probably do it then.

You know, the next time I have $3k floating around to replace a tool I already have that already worksm plus explain it to the wife. :rofl:. Hard to justify unfortunately- I'd rather keep the crusty old welder and buy a little milling machine.

Ah well it is fun to have a long list of toys on the shopping list. :cool:

ok cool. im still recovering a bit ($$ wise) from buying the machine, so the torch is something for next year haha. maybe a good normal torch first and then one like this for the harder work if i can find one. Expensive things those torches. Oh and a good welding helmet is on my shopping list too....

A long shopping list i always good :-P

[Captain Bondo]

Thnaks man- yeah hope it is "big enough". I think it should be good, bracing it closer to the end of the pipe just risks thermal stresses.

The torch was suprisingly cheap (imo). It was about $150 (canadian dollar is about the same as the USD these days).

I also want a new helmet. The Optrel sucks unfortunately. :(

Time for a Miller Big Window Elite. :nod:


very nice solution for the WG pipe support, good spot on the collector/tube wall to connect to :nod:



ok cool. im still recovering a bit ($$ wise) from buying the machine, so the torch is something for next year haha. maybe a good normal torch first and then one like this for the harder work if i can find one. Expensive things those torches. Oh and a good welding helmet is on my shopping list too....

A long shopping list i always good :-P

[badvlvo]

I need to buy a tig so I can build cool **** too.
And I need a garage.

[igor]

Very very nice. I love how your solutions also happen to be very aesthetically pleasing. Though I'm sure they don't just happen that way. Just the sort of stuff I'd like on one of my cars!

[manbeard]

Thnaks man- yeah hope it is "big enough". I think it should be good, bracing it closer to the end of the pipe just risks thermal stresses.

The torch was suprisingly cheap (imo). It was about $150 (canadian dollar is about the same as the USD these days).

I also want a new helmet. The Optrel sucks unfortunately. :(

Time for a Miller Big Window Elite. :nod:

one of my friends could have gotten you a speedglas 9200x for cheaper than retail, but he quit the place he worked at. instead of around 370 apiece he could get them for around 320 or so. i got mine for free :)


cpt bondo, the manifolds look awesome! are you just fusing the runners together? or are you adding wire to them?

[coldfusion21]

The Optrel sucks unfortunately. :(

Your one of the few people i have heard this from. Why?

[Captain Bondo]

Thanks guys!

Miniman, I fuse as much as possible- the weld els are veveled so if 2 uncut els are butted together it needs filler. I have 1/16" filler and it is WAY to big to be able to make really nice weld with except for on fillets (like the flanges).

I cringe at the idea of moving to using 0.035" stainless MIG wire because it is twice the cost, but I probably will. When doing this much welding the little conveniences are easy to justify. :nod:


Coldfusion,

Couple issues witrh the Optrel:

1)no battery power- only solar. If you are under/in a car without great lighting and the helmet has been sitting in the car for a bit, it will flash you when you start. The cartridges that use AAA batteries as a buckup for the solar are worth the effort.

2)lack of sensors/sensor placement. When welding on a tube cluster, it is easy to end up in a position where the sensors don't see the arc and you get flashed.

3)the little control panel on the side pops out sometimes.

4)I'd rather have a bigger viewable area.

5)non standard lens covers. You have to get the crazy curved covers form optrel. I guess the theory is they help the optics (which are good, no doubt) but I'd rather be able to buy covers off of the shelf.

They are a decent helmet for a production welder who welds fairly simple assemblies all day long since the optics are great, but for automotive apps where you are welding in funny positions, etc, they are less than ideal when a Miller ELite is the same price.

[The Aspirator]

Why 2 passes for that lap joint on the WG support?

What's different about this new torch, is it smaller? Is watercooling worth the money or is it really fine without it for building this kind of stuff? I'm looking forward to the day I lay down the law and get a TIG.

[manbeard]

Why 2 passes for that lap joint on the WG support?

What's different about this new torch, is it smaller? Is watercooling worth the money or is it really fine without it for building this kind of stuff? I'm looking forward to the day I lay down the law and get a TIG.

with what i've used water cooling is good if you run your machine for long periods of time. but even then, you could just get a higher amp capacity tig rig and it should be ok.

[Captain Bondo]

with what i've used water cooling is good if you run your machine for long periods of time. but even then, you could just get a higher amp capacity tig rig and it should be ok.

The problem is that with aircooled if you want to dissipate more heat, you need to make the torch bigger.

Casually welding my own stuff I never had an issue with an aircooled torch.

Now that I am actually doing a reasonable volume and trying to be time effiect, I am starting to think I really need one. The torch gets too hot for me to hold all of the time.

I actually might just build one...

EDIT: the reason for 2 passes is difficult to explain, but basically you can't add anough filler in one pass without the puddle getting way too big.

[dom santiago]

any word on pumping out some 16v manis...im definitely down for one

[Captain Bondo]

any word on pumping out some 16v manis...im definitely down for one


We are definitely trying to figure something out on this front. The difficulty is availability of a car for mockup purposes sinc eit needs to be
1. In the PNW

2. Have a turbo 16v in it

3. have an ower that can get it to my place and be without it for a couple weeks

4. preferably a 240 since they are the bbiggest challenge clearance-wise

One of the SE boys has bought an 8V manifold that is going to ship this week- so they are going to try to get me some pics of it in a 16v engine bay- maybe I can figure it out form pics.

But I dunno, I'm not sure I'm that good. :rofl:

[amargill19?]

Adrian needs to bring the hooptie up north here eh

[GTJordan]

This winter I'll drive my GT out there, you can source a 16V engine (I'll pay of course), and then build it

Hows that sound ;)

Jordan

[Poik]

I have a 16v in my 242, it doesn't move though. If you think you could get by with taking measurements you're free to come down and take a look. Engine is slanted now but by the end of summer will be upright.

[Captain Bondo]

Thanks Poik- that might be really helpful. B-Ham is not a bad drive at all...


What probably makes sense is if I brought a complete manifold, minus the actual head flange, so I can stick the runners right where they'd be.... that could work... at least I'd be able to tell if the design actually carries over.

It will probably be august by the time the next rune of headers is at that stage though...

Jordan, wether I have a proto or not, a winter 16v build sounds like a great plan!

Amar- I think Adrian already has a header, which makes his motivation for such an ordeal more-or less zero (understandably).

[GrandmaSideways]

Think you could put a 16v head on a bench, and take measurements from a 16v head in a 240 to see how much room you have?

[Captain Bondo]

Think you could put a 16v head on a bench, and take measurements from a 16v head in a 240 to see how much room you have?

Not quite- but your comment has jogged my brain-:-D

You know, if I had an 8v head and a 16v head on the bench, side by side, I could do it.

I could do it easy.

1)put dowels into a piece of plywood where the headbolts would be on a block.

2)place 8v head onto plywood w/ dowels.

3)place 8v header on 8v head.

4)add a piece of wood or whatever that is attached to the plywood piece and goes to the turbo flange.

5)remove 8v head/header

6)install 16v head onto dowelled piece of wood.

now I have a jig that will allow me to build a 16v header with the same turbo placement as the 8v header.

Woo!

I need some cheap heads now. Or I need some heads just to borrow.

Any volunteers? I can probably get an 8v head easy I think.

[Poik]

I have a head you can borrow. You will just need the bottom part right, not the whole cam carrier?

[Captain Bondo]

Hmmm.... depends on if I can tell easily if the runners clear the top half of the cambox with just the bottom.... probably.. it's been a while since I really looked at one...

[Mark]

I have a 16 valve.

Too many cylinders though... :-P

Headers look great though, Kenny- just thought I'd chime in and tell ya. I envy your skillz.

We need a PNW get together... seems like I haven't seen anyone in quite some time.

M.

[GTJordan]

We need a PNW get together... seems like I haven't seen anyone in quite some time.

M.

Ya, when I come out at the end of the month

Jordan

[Captain Bondo]

ya, when i come out at the end of the month

jordan


+1

[hockey930]

if we really can't find a 16 valve head, I have one here I can ship, it is a good head though. Last one I sent out got ganked by hoooookz, what a fing tool that kid turned out to be.

[blkaplan]

I actually might just build one...



I know for a fact that the setrab oilcooler from the redblock turbos works as an excellent heat exchanger for a watercooling unit :-P

[Poik]

Well I have a whole head, or two, but only the lower portion of one has been run through a parts washer and is squeaky clean.

[GrandmaSideways]

Can call up Scandia or whoever, ask to 'rent' a 16v head.
I might be in at scandia on friday, I can ask for you if you like. Never know.

[PRVersion]

EDIT: the reason for 2 passes is difficult to explain, but basically you can't add anough filler in one pass without the puddle getting way too big.

eek, two passes? what kind of filler mat'l? what grade stainless??

[Captain Bondo]

eek, two passes? what kind of filler mat'l? what grade stainless??


304/304L filler is 308/308L

Fairly standard for a lap joint like that.

[The Aspirator]

Kenny I like your idea of making a "mock engine bay", throw a big roll of paper towels in there to mimic a strut tower and you'll be all set!

Have you forgotten about my super secret spy pictures from almost 3 years ago!? I have more that I could e-mail you too.

http://www.j2mediagroup.com/john/Kenny01.jpg
http://www.j2mediagroup.com/john/Kenny02.jpg
http://www.j2mediagroup.com/john/Kenny04.jpg
http://www.j2mediagroup.com/john/Kenny03.jpg

[Lord Tentacle]

talk to r-sport, i know j-dog has atleast 3 heads and multiple cars just sitting there....

[Rust Reaper]

Ken,

You can have the head off my burned b21a if you like. Otherwise its going to the scrapper. Let me know and i'll rip it off.

[242GTMD]

Again, as soon as MrSteve gets his header there will be comparison pics between Kenny's design and ProTurbo's -cough ssac crap in a Finnish box cough- mocked up in my 242 w/16v ness.

[PRVersion]

304/304L filler is 308/308L

Fairly standard for a lap joint like that.

:e-shrug: i was always taught that more than one pass can make the stainless crystalize in a more brittle fashion...maybe that's just my paranoia for double-passing aluminum is carrying over :lol:

[Captain Bondo]

:e-shrug: i was always taught that more than one pass can make the stainless crystalize in a more brittle fashion...maybe that's just my paranoia for double-passing aluminum is carrying over :lol:


Overheating any material is bad. Multiple passes are a way of MINIMIZING heat input, actually. If the stainless is crystallizing you have a purge/shielding problem.

Nothing wrong with multiple passes on aluminum either- in fact they are often even more necessary with aluminum. That is why we use 4000 and 5000 series rod and 6000 series doesn't really exist. The AWS codes for welding alloys are the authority to turn to when in doubt.



Another option is go here:

http://www.millerwelds.com/education/calculators/tig_amperage_calculator.php

Enter in that you want to do a lap weld on 1/8" steel/stainless.

There will be 2 pictures at the bottom that say "lap weld 1" which is sorta undercut, and "lap weld 2" which is the 2nd pass with an approriate weld cross section.

[Ryo240T]

I got a 14 LB package today :)....very nice work. I will add photos when installed if you like? I am still unsure of what turbo I am running so; it could be a bit.

[Captain Bondo]

Excellent!

I am really looking forward to getting feedback and impressions and etc- I have been waiting for them to get to you guys almost as anxiously as you have been I think. Like I wrote a play and it's opening night or something lame like that. :rofl:

So definitely post about it if you can, and of course if you need ANY help I will take care of ya. I'm sure others are interested to hear feedback on these from other members.

[Ryo240T]

I will have to polish the ish of of it. I hate chrome but something this nice deserves to be bling.This coming from a guy that refuses to paint his ole' red block while building it. Here is a shot of it ( it is real not like man landing on the moon)
http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u50/ryo240t/DSC05627-1.jpg

[maxman142001]

I will have to polish the ish of of it. I hate chrome but something this nice deserves to be bling.This coming from a guy that refuses to paint his ole' red block while building it. Here is a shot of it ( it is real not like man landing on the moon)
http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u50/ryo240t/DSC05627-1.jpg

:drool:

cant wait to get mine

[Captain Bondo]

Just on the ups site... looks like another was delivered today as well.

Guess I won't be sharing a cell with that CTP guy just yet... :rofl:

[GrandmaSideways]

Just on the ups site... looks like another was delivered today as well.

Guess I won't be sharing a cell with that CTP guy just yet... :rofl:

:rofl:
I can call you at the three in the morning like I've done to him, if you like?

[Captain Bondo]

:rofl:
I can call you at the three in the morning like I've done to him, if you like?


I'm on the edge of sending you on a vacation from the board as it is... :cool:

[GrandmaSideways]

I'm on the edge of sending you on a vacation from the board as it is... :cool:

:roll:

[PRVersion]

:rofl:

[amargill19?]

lol brett got ban'd

look nice,

you cut in between the ports of the flange eh

[Captain Bondo]

you cut in between the ports of the flange eh


Yeah, to relieve any tension in the runners due to warpage.

I realized later on that I can weld the header up solid and weld the flange on last and not have to do that though- so future ones likely won't be.

I imagine these will evolve slightly over the next few units. I need to be better each time I do something. :nod:

[The Aspirator]

Wow it looks like it could almost be mounted upright, would it even fit? And I gotta admit, it looks sorta ugly with the thingies cut between teh ports, sort of like it's a hack job (like mine :lol:).

[Ryo240T]

Wow it looks like it could almost be mounted upright, would it even fit? And I gotta admit, it looks sorta ugly with the thingies cut between teh ports, sort of like it's a hack job (like mine :lol:).

Thread jack:

Speaking of hacks... get to work on those bars!!! :lol: I doubt they will clear anywho.. all kiding aside when will the sweat shop be done?

[Captain Bondo]

Haha- IIRC the finish on the cuts is ironically pretty nice, but actually re-shaping that stainless flange after the fact would take hours - and you can't even see it with the header installed.

Oh and ryan, the bars do clear my manifold if that's what you mean, Phil's car had my manifold and John's bars on it at the same time (well, still does).

[fige]

ME WANTS HEADER!!!!



btw: you look good in pink grandmasideways

[Ryo240T]

Oh and ryan, the bars do clear my manifold if that's what you mean, Phil's car had my manifold and John's bars on it at the same time (well, still does).

That is great to hear! I was thinking if a long neck oil fill coundnt clear them than this header was a long shot. That is awesome news now that I think about it.

[The Aspirator]

I'll have your bars and spark plug wires out this friday, monday at the latest. I put on the heat sleeving like I did for Phil's wires, but he burned up #3 even with my sleeving AND the big boot protectors, so for your wires and for his replacement wire I doubled up on the sleeving for #3 and tucked it into the boot so there was no exposed area. :nod:

[volvoluvin]

I'll have your bars and spark plug wires out this friday, monday at the latest. I put on the heat sleeving like I did for Phil's wires, but he burned up #3 even with my sleeving AND the big boot protectors, so for your wires and for his replacement wire I doubled up on the sleeving for #3 and tucked it into the boot so there was no exposed area. :nod:

Hey all,
I will go an immediately take some pictures of my new wire solution that is holding quite well. I doubt any of you will have problems given that I also believe Kenny added a 1/4'' or something like that to the runners at the flange giving you guys just a bit more room...I believe.

I've actually been driving the 245 a lot these past couple weeks while the 850 is getting serviced, so lots more miles on the header, and everything is holding together well.

John's wires rawk btw...gorgeous...

off to take pics...

[Citysurf740]

so how much are they

[Captain Bondo]

Yeah, I test fit the "new" design on a junkyard car and plug wire clearance is WAAAAY better.

Poeple will still need to pay some attention sin you could still park a plug wire right on a manifold runner if you weren't paying attention, but it is MUCH easier to avoid.


City, got your PM.

[The Aspirator]

So would it fit "upsidedown"? IE, turbo on top? Or is the flange slightly different, I seem to remember the gaskets only line up one way, not upsidedown.

[Captain Bondo]

So would it fit "upsidedown"? IE, turbo on top? Or is the flange slightly different, I seem to remember the gaskets only line up one way, not upsidedown.


The flange doesn't fit upside down.... I never attempted it to be honest since i have such a general distaste for top mounts...:rofl:

My WAG (wild ass guess) would be that the turbo would come up through the hood though....

[Ryo240T]

I'll have your bars and spark plug wires out this friday, monday at the latest. I put on the heat sleeving like I did for Phil's wires, but he burned up #3 even with my sleeving AND the big boot protectors, so for your wires and for his replacement wire I doubled up on the sleeving for #3 and tucked it into the boot so there was no exposed area. :nod:

You guys should team up and offer them together! A true pimp-tasic setup and no worries about fried wires..

[The Aspirator]

Nope, cause on a Proturbo manifold the T3 flange is level with the top of the head flange. Yours is like 1-2" lower. I could go either way, top mount/bottom mount, I think they're both sexy in their own ways.

[Captain Bondo]

I see what you're saying, I should have tried to bolt the holset on the opposite direction before I boxed it up for shipping....

The turbine housing is "offset" so when you bolt it up, the turbo is "away" from the runners and etc, so if you flip it upside down, the turbo will point in the opposite direction. When you then flip the turbo 180 the turbine housing will offset the turbo "towards" the head/flange/etc.

I wonder if it clears... that'd be hilarious if it does...

Maybe one of the guys who just got one could indulge us this evening and try to bolt the turbo onto the flange "backwards" so the compressor would be facing the firewall and see if it clear...

[Bob]

I brought the header to my fab guy last night and he thought for sure we should we should flip it over and go with a top mount with the wastegate out front. Does the flange really only fit one way? Wish my 242 had a motor in it, I'd mock it up with the GT3071R he had at the shop and take some pics.

[blkaplan]

top mount ftl, kenny put a decent amount of effort into getting this turbo located in a half decent position and people are dead set on making it suck...

lol

[MrBill]

yeah I think it looks really great where it is. It's almost at stock location, how much more win can you get than that?

Cant wait for the 16v ones :nod:

[Captain Bondo]

I grabbed a turbo and tried it last night and the turbo hits the runners when you flip it around- it really isn't doable or desireable IMO.

Is he concerned regarding wastegate clearance at the firewall? What was his reasoning for wanting to do this?

I think I sent you a note on this- basically I left the wastegate pipe really long, cut it short and use a piece of the little elbow I shipped with it to "aim" the wastegate up into the back corner of the engine back.

[Bob]

yea, i'm going to keep it a bottom mount design and tuck the wastegate up by the wiper motor, as your note suggested. i think his reasoning was more aesthetic than anything else, but it looks damn good either way :)

[Captain Bondo]

Ok excellent. Glad that makes sense. You and Ryan are the very first guys to get external setups so making sure you guys are able to get that going is a huge priority for me. :nod:

The low mounted turbo with the header up above does several things:

1) It improves the downpipe layout. Most of us know just how eye opening it was the first time we improved the exhaust on our turbo cars. Those bends in the downpipe are some of the worst bends in the system. Esepcially straightening out that first bend after the turbo and imptroving the exhaust's immediate point of entry into the exhaust system is a very good thing.

That is why you see crazy swedes like Mats with the green 242 cutting holes in the firewall so they can run a straighter downpipe. :nod:

Or look at that crazy Opel with the twincharged B230. Bottom mount.

Or look at Jesus' new T6 242- bottom mount.

Yeah there are lots of badass cars with top mounts- but a lot of the time the really high end guys have bottom mounts, and it is no coinicidence IMO.



2) The oil return line plumbing is very straightforward. Mounting it up above means trying to snake the return pipe past the runners, and trying to not totally bake the oil in the ruturn line in the process.

3) It keeps the weight of the turbo lower in the bay, the turbo is basically a 20-40lb, 120,000rpm gyroscope, and it is worth mounting it low when possible.

What is funny though is I am sure I am going to get bugged when I post my new T6 header design, because I am 90% sure it will be a top mount. Sometimes packaging requires a top mount, but that's trhe only place I'd ever consider it a good idea- when it is absolutely necessary due to space constraints.


I think this is why you see more top mounts, it is a more "forgiving" place to put the turbo, and the layout doesn't need to be as precise.

But the new BIG turbo on the T6 just ain't gonna fit down by the engine mount. :ninja:

Sorry, I am rambling again!

[Bob]

i wish i was farther along in my 242 project to get this on ASAP, but I may just use my NA daily driver 244 for fitment testing, especially at the shop when we position the wastegate. just need to rip out the non functioning AC...

[pwschuh]

The oil return line plumbing is very straightforward.

Unless you're me... :cries:

[volvoluvin]

I would also wager a guess, just a guess of course, that people want to show off their big "penis"...i.e. Turbo, and top mount does this. :poo:

But IMHO, and from staring at mine all day, the Captain's header is way sexier than the turbo...

[blkaplan]

Unless you're me... :cries:

pw sump

[Geoff240Ti]

I have a top mount, and agree that bottom mount is better in many ways..

You can see my oil return line running very close to the header...
http://www.pbase.com/g_photos/image/86596959.jpg

The downpipe bends..

http://www.pbase.com/g_photos/image/86596961.jpg

It was also really cramped for running the IC piping..
http://www.pbase.com/g_photos/image/86596968.jpg

The bottom mount looks just as sexy... (although my turbo is nothing but a junkyard special).

[The Aspirator]

Every time I read this thread it makes me want to fabricate an exhaust manifold for myself. I have to stop reading...

[Poik]

Every time I read this thread it makes me want to fabricate an exhaust manifold for myself. I have to stop reading...
I'm going to start this week! Finally going to put that stuff to good use.

[The Aspirator]

I'm kicking myself for selling you those 2 new flanges and a wicked collector. I'd held onto those things for years.

[Boris740]

I have a top mount, and agree that bottom mount is better in many ways..

You can see my oil return line running very close to the header...
http://www.pbase.com/g_photos/image/86596959.jpg


Is it just the camera angle or is the oil return making a J bend like a sink trap?

[Geoff240Ti]

Is it just the camera angle or is the oil return making a J bend like a sink trap?

Just the Camera angle.. it's downhill all the way :nod:.

[hockey930]

my motor is in the hole as of last night, 16v manifold for a 700 with an hx35-40..... build!
http://photos-d.ak.facebook.com/photos-ak-sf2p/v288/151/39/8807651/n8807651_40821371_7901.jpg

[volvoluvin]

Hey all,
I will go an immediately take some pictures of my new wire solution that is holding quite well. I doubt any of you will have problems given that I also believe Kenny added a 1/4'' or something like that to the runners at the flange giving you guys just a bit more room...I believe.

I've actually been driving the 245 a lot these past couple weeks while the 850 is getting serviced, so lots more miles on the header, and everything is holding together well.

John's wires rawk btw...gorgeous...

off to take pics...

ok, immediate isn't a good word to describe the length of time it took me to take theses...but um...oh well, here they are. All I've done is put a four wire clip holder on the drivers side of the valve cover, and then used small zip ties as "restraining" devices to stop the wires creeping back towards the header. The key with keeping them away for me was making sure they were pulled as tight as possible towards this clip, hence the need for the "restraining devices". :clap:
<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/buggabean/2665817413/" title="IMG_3797 by buggabean, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3065/2665817413_8d3184c973_b.jpg" width="683" height="1024" alt="IMG_3797" /></a>
<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/buggabean/2666640062/" title="IMG_3796 by buggabean, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3017/2666640062_c4a03b464a_b.jpg" width="1024" height="683" alt="IMG_3796" /></a>
<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/buggabean/2665818765/" title="IMG_3798 by buggabean, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3027/2665818765_71a889887d_b.jpg" width="1024" height="683" alt="IMG_3798" /></a>
#3 runner spacing
<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/buggabean/2666643652/" title="IMG_3799 by buggabean, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3101/2666643652_98a6b42db9_b.jpg" width="1024" height="683" alt="IMG_3799" /></a>


The cooked wire: (this was basiclly resting against the header for a short period)
<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/buggabean/2666647180/" title="IMG_3803 by buggabean, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3099/2666647180_ed59ee683a_b.jpg" width="1024" height="683" alt="IMG_3803" /></a>

[The Aspirator]

New solution looks awesome Phil. Man that wire really is cooked, yikes. In that one I didn't take the sleeving all the way down to the boot, so there was obviously almost an inch of uncovered area. The new ones are covered all the way down.

[volvoluvin]

New solution looks awesome Phil. Man that wire really is cooked, yikes. In that one I didn't take the sleeving all the way down to the boot, so there was obviously almost an inch of uncovered area. The new ones are covered all the way down.

Ya new one's are great, and this shouldn't happen with the zips helping. I had it working properly before as Kenny and I did that whole Portland trip without a problem, but they slipped, I didn't notice, and one drive to work and back, (22kms), and they were done...

[pwschuh]

Yea, it's surprising how much difference just a small air gap will make to lessen heat transfer as compared to when two things are actually in contact with each other.