Don't...Flip...That...Wagon...!

[towerymt]

proffesional driver, closed course. don't try this at home.
this is a dramatization.

So far we don't think there are any pictures or video of the incident, so here is a reenactment using photos from past events.

http://www.smugmug.com/photos/291235388_NYpVh-M.jpg

http://www.smugmug.com/photos/291235576_S2t65-M.jpg


















                                    http://www.pbase.com/towerymt/image/98057931.jpg

Yes, it happened again...and this time it was much closer to disaster. This top heavy bread box has too much grip in violent transitions. No kerbing or jumps needed here. Lateral grip on smooth asphalt almost put an end to bne's roof. It slammed down pretty hard after having the right side tires over a foot off the ground, but the suspension was fine and the car made 8 more runs among Ben, Rob, and myself.

Two wheel Towery is done driving the beige motorcycle. If I'm going to roll a car at an autocross, it's going to be my own.

[Crazychopstick]

I'm sure the line to say when emerging from someone else's upside down racecar would be "that's how I roll."

[pooprah]

:lol:

[Crazychopstick]

You can flip or you can flop. Or you can flip flop. Just don't press the red button.

[2fast242gt]

any real pics of video??!!

[pooprah]

any real pics of video??!!

:cries::pow:

[2fast242gt]

i wana see this!!!! i hope somehow somone finds a pic!

[340GL]

i wana see this!!!! i hope somehow somone finds a pic!

......

[GrandmaSideways]

I'm sure the line to say when emerging from someone else's upside down racecar would be "that's how I roll."

Or, "Well that puts a whole new meaning to the name Volvo!"

[242GTMD]

I'm sure the line to say when emerging from someone else's upside down racecar would be "that's how I roll."
:rofl::rofl:

[blkaplan]

Survey says no on the pics, its a shame i missed it with documentation. It was freaking insane,

it literally was this far in the air http://www.stuntworld.co.uk/i/1-two-wheel-driving.jpg

[blkaplan]

like this

<object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/2yXKdB3RtIY&rel=0"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/2yXKdB3RtIY&rel=0" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed></object>

[GrandmaSideways]

like this

<object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/2yXKdB3RtIY&rel=0"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/2yXKdB3RtIY&rel=0" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed></object>

including the cheezy wannabe techno?

[CaptainLeah]

You can flip or you can flop. Or you can flip flop. Just don't press the red button.

LOL :rofl:

[pooprah]

including the cheezy wannabe techno?

thats the bne theme song he has a 10 hour mp3 cd loop of it and it never leaves the deck

[RockVegas]

Just throw a fatass in the passenger seat.

[blkaplan]

thats the bne theme song he has a 10 hour mp3 cd loop of it and it never leaves the deck


don't tempt me, it could be a good replacement for mi li li li li mi li li li li mi li li li li li mi li li li li li li mi li li li li mi li li li li mi li li li li li mi li li li li li li mi li li li li mi li li li li mi li li li li li mi li li li li li li mi li li li li mi li li li li mi li li li li li mi li li li li li li



brrrrrrrrrrrr

[Lord_Athlon]

I'd make a hell of a counterweight.

[wildmanben]

Holy crap Towery, I bet your heart skipped a couple beets while you were in motorcycle mode (and Bne's probably did too!) Did everything go into slo-mo? And did it recover on its own or did it need a little steering input to get back onto all four?

[Thor]

You can flip or you can flop. Or you can flip flop. Just don't press the red button.

you sir have just made it into my sig. :-P

[Sp3aK]

Two wheel Towery is done driving the beige motorcycle.

haha :)

[EricF]

Hang a bunch of gold chains off the side mirrors for ballast... ****'s ballin!

[Captain Bondo]

Cool! So what are the thoughts on curing this? There must be a plan... :nod:

[Dan242tic]

Cool! So what are the thoughts on curing this? There must be a plan... :nod:

Long travel soft suspension with no sway bars....

[stray]

Lexan/ sawzall to the roof? And seriously BNE, go buy a video camera and glue some crap together to make a mount.

[Stereophile33]

cool, you guys are starting to make beige wagons looks like the E30's on 17x12's nice work

[SquareD]

Cool! So what are the thoughts on curing this? There must be a plan... :nod:

Huge gyroscope. With triangle bling of course.

That's nuts. I thought this stuff only happed in Gran Turismo.

[Chrisco]

Time for CF roof and lexan windows

[JW240]

wow, two-wheel-towery is back! Good to be back ;-)
Glad you didn't flip it....

including the cheezy wannabe techno?

not a bad word about Scooter! :-P

[340GL]

including the cheezy wannabe techno?

that's scooter - they're pretty popular.... sadly....:-(

[schaff70]

Needs moar training wheels. :rofl:

[blkaplan]

Cool! So what are the thoughts on curing this? There must be a plan... :nod:

The biggest thing we want to do is drop the CG. At the moment i am running the double adjustables in full length housings. It will a set of the shortys for the car and drop the front and get my roll correction made, finally. The rear is going to take some reconfiguring to get it 2.5 - 3" lower. The fenders will need additional mods as will the mounting points on the coilovers. I have a few good ideas. Only problem is most of that will make the not very legal for SM but I could always run the car in E mod but its a pretty empty class and its not as fun as SM.

Its odd, Towery and Rob co-drove with me and neither rob or i got the car to two wheel, that we knew of. Something about towerys style is prone to two wheeling?

If i give up on SM completely it will get a carbon roof skin and a carbon tail gate. that should go a long way to get the CG lower and reduce the polar moment

Long travel soft suspension with no sway bars....

aka taking away all the grip? yea, right :pointlol:

[kidGT]

musta bn somethin like this

<object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/vR5Ivz3eyN8&hl=en"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/vR5Ivz3eyN8&hl=en" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed></object>

[blkaplan]

yep, it was pretty much exactly like that except he didn't need a ramp to get up...

[volvorsport]

damping ?

[EricF]

yep, it was pretty much exactly like that except he didn't need a ramp to get up...

that's what she said!

[SteveMD]

Normal size R-compounds (205/50x15) slide my 240 all too soon. Fun, but aren't going to win me any trophies. Seems everyone else in FSP is putting more rubber on the ground than me and in lighter, lower cars.

Kevin Henry in his 325i has 235 or 245 R compounds sticking a mile out of his fender wells. That was good for 2nd place in DSP.

In FSP, an old Scirocco took first at 59.7. As usual I hung on to last place with my 68.7. Ahead of me was a Mini (63.xxx).

[blkaplan]

damping ?

suggestions?

[Wagner]

Oh my, a beige motorcycle. :lol:

You should use a massive, golden oil sump.

But really,

IIRC weight transfer = (OW x GF x HCG) / (Gr x TW), where
OW = overall weight of the car
GF = cornering force in G
HCG= height of center of gravity
Gr = gravity in G
TW = track widht

So widen the baby, lower the C of G,lower the overall weight of the car and change gravity.

Or reduce cornering force :-P

[blkaplan]

Oh my, a beige motorcycle. :lol:

You should use a massive, golden oil sump.

But really,

IIRC weight transfer = (OW x GF x HCG) / (Gr x TW), where
OW = overall weight of the car
GF = cornering force in G
HCG= height of center of gravity
Gr = gravity in G
TW = track widht

So widen the baby, lower the C of G,lower the overall weight of the car and change gravity.

Or reduce cornering force :-P

yep, the rear is already pretty wide and i dont want to make it wider because it makes you slower in autox. the best approach with the least compromises is to lower the cg

[11110000]

1) Install rare-earth magnets under floorpan
2) Embed toroidal coils in asphalt
3) Hook up coils to nearest nuclear power plant
4) MAGNA-TRACTION!!!

[Volvorules]

Lexan/ sawzall to the roof? And seriously BNE, go buy a video camera and glue some crap together to make a mount.

That was my suggestion. Less roof = less weight :)

He does have a camera mount, it was on the car, but no camera on it :( Would have been rediculous. I was 100% sure it was going over, I even screamed Jesus H and everyone standing around me thought somebody had a really great time or something, then I said no, he almost rolled the wagon!! I was very frightened by the two wheel action. Pretty sure I drove slower on the rest of my runs because of it, I didn't wanna be the one to roll it!

[volvorsport]

rebound settings ?

but , having had a think your overall spring rate may be too high .

did the grp a 240s ever lift wheels , 2 wheel or try to turn over on slicks ?

[blkaplan]

rebound settings ?

but , having had a think your overall spring rate may be too high .

did the grp a 240s ever lift wheels , 2 wheel or try to turn over on slicks ?

Group A cars had 1" less travel then i do in the front. The rebound was set pretty high.

Group A cars were sprung stiffer i think then where I am but they also weighed much less and are lower then where my car currently sits. Only time i saw the group A cars with 2 in the air was when they were bouncing off curbs.

A softer setup wouldn't come up on two because i couldn't get the same grip with softer setup but going softer means taking away grip, thats the wrong direction. I think the best way to improve on the current setup is a lower CG. The car is pretty high as it sits. I like the utility of having good ground clearance but if it means i can close the gap to 1st place, screw it.

[volvorsport]

well as gordon murray said all else being equal , car with the lowest centre of gravity wins .

is it rock hard boneshaking spring rate ?

ill quote some experience .

on an Alfa romeo 75 turbo that was used in ETCC (against the volvos) , was bought , shipped to the uk , found to two wheel everywhere .

remedy , softer spring rates , still as quick , didnt two wheel .

there was the whole dampers/springs/tyres evaluation the came from that aswell .

[blkaplan]

well as gordon murray said all else being equal , car with the lowest centre of gravity wins .

is it rock hard boneshaking spring rate ?

ill quote some experience .

on an Alfa romeo 75 turbo that was used in ETCC (against the volvos) , was bought , shipped to the uk , found to two wheel everywhere .

remedy , softer spring rates , still as quick , didnt two wheel .

there was the whole dampers/springs/tyres evaluation the came from that aswell .

its really not that stiff. I know of comparable cars with similar weights that are much higher sprung then my car. I am only running 500lb/in front. There are many m3's that are running 650-700 front.

The car has great grip over rough pavement and bumps at speed and maintains a overall good compliance, the suspension is still working. My car doesn't two wheel everywhere. Towery two wheeled twice in it out of 16 runs. The second time was big but Rob and I both drove it and it didn't two wheel.

[blkaplan]

Pretty sure I drove slower on the rest of my runs because of it, I didn't wanna be the one to roll it!

Your times don't show that :-P

After towery cooked my brakes at carlisle i ran the 4th run very cautiously not knowing if they were going to go away on me and my time for that run was way better then the other 4. Autox is weird. The faster you drive doesn't always equate to faster times.

[towerymt]

Holy crap Towery, I bet your heart skipped a couple beets while you were in motorcycle mode (and Bne's probably did too!) Did everything go into slo-mo? And did it recover on its own or did it need a little steering input to get back onto all four?
The last time it went up on 2, I didn't feel it at all. It was only a few inches off the ground.

This time I cranked in the steering for a sharp right corner, and I felt it go up almost immediately. I think I was already countersteering slightly (turning right, wheels turned to the left), and I kept turning to the left to try and bring it down. There was definitely a moment that lasted a fraction of second and felt like a long time when it had stopped going up but hadn't started coming down yet. They tell me it actually drove on two wheels for a moment before it came back down. That was an odd sensation, as was the realization that my head was turned 30-45° from upright while it was happening. It came back down and I just coasted for a moment, looking at the course workers to see what they were going to do. There were no red flags, no arms waving, nothing.....so I finished the last ~10sec of the run and returned to the grid. It was like no one saw it except Rob and Ben and the course workers.

Cool! So what are the thoughts on curing this? There must be a plan... :nod:
Lower it and add grip. Then see if it's still happening. It would never happen on a skid pad, but it can happen any time if the speed is high enough and the transition is sudden. I'd be curious to measure transitional G load.

The lot isn't even concrete...it's relatively low grip 10+yr old asphalt. The tires are used and the fronts corded the edges at this event. I think it's more of a chassis issue at this point.

Long travel soft suspension with no sway bars....
Hardly. But it's not very low. With gravel rally suspension and these tires, we'd be doing a Bertone roof on a wagon. :-P

Normal size R-compounds (205/50x15) slide my 240 all too soon. Fun, but aren't going to win me any trophies. Seems everyone else in FSP is putting more rubber on the ground than me and in lighter, lower cars.

Kevin Henry in his 325i has 235 or 245 R compounds sticking a mile out of his fender wells. That was good for 2nd place in DSP.
When I had 225/45 Hoosiers, I couldn't even lift an inside front tire with an IPD front bar. The wagon briefly had an inside rear lift issue, but now we've moved passed that right to two wheelin'.

Kevin's got 275/35/15 Hoosier A6 on 15x10. Last year he ran the 265/45/16, but it makes the car too tall (like mine). I'd like to run the 275 as well, but 265/16s are so cheap and easy to find.

...I didn't wanna be the one to roll it!
Yeah, don't wreck it again. I think it's my turn, anyway.

[amargill19?]

would going to a bit moar softer spring in the front help that?

did beigewagon turn a bit brown in the seat, towery?

You should practice stuntin' yo'

so are you going to drop it like it's hawt, blk a plan?

[blkaplan]

would going to a bit moar softer spring in the front help that?

did beigewagon turn a bit brown in the seat, towery?

You should practice stuntin' yo'

so are you going to drop it like it's hawt, blk a plan?

Softer spring help it flip over? Softer spring = more weight transfer and less work on the inner tires = less grip...

Stuntin like my daddy, chromed' out 1100.

drop it like it hawt....

i got me some idears

[740Weapon]

i think it should be wide-bodied.

[blkaplan]

i think it should be wide-bodied.

it already is.... don't flares count? fronts have to be flared for the new wheels

[amargill19?]

so, in a quick transition like that,

the softer spring will obviously transfer weight (better?) and being softer, not let it two wheel as easy?

But two wheeling = grip * 0.5

[amargill19?]

new wheels

wat

[blkaplan]

so, in a quick transition like that,

the softer spring will obviously transfer weight (better?) and being softer, not let it two wheel as easy?

But two wheeling = grip * 0.5

wrong.... softer springs allow more weight transfer to the out side tires.... ie less load to the inside tires... soft rates could lift the inside as well but it probably wouldn't because the car would just start to plow or slide before it was able to tip... with the stiffer rates and big tires it produces so much grip its not going to slide, my car with two wheels on the ground has more tire width then your car does right now... its hard to comprehend the size and grip of 285 R comps.

[towerymt]

Softer spring help it flip over? Softer spring = more weight transfer and less work on the inner tires = less grip...
I don't think I can get more weight transfer.
:-P

Stock '83 GTI with r-comp tires will 2 wheel. tall with soft springs and lots of grip.

Tall, top heavy vehicles are more prone to roll over. Wagon race car FTL.

[towerymt]

Stiff springs transfer weight faster. Soft springs transfer weight slower.

[gdogg16]

Stiff springs transfer weight faster. Soft springs transfer weight slower.
Your mom transfers weight faster.

[towerymt]

Your mom transfers weight faster.
the jerk store called, they're running out of you

[norcal505]

oh daayyummm!!!!

[norcal505]

the jerk store called, they're running out of you
ahahahahahahahaha

[WheyDey]

Survey says no on the pics, its a shame i missed it with documentation. It was freaking insane,

it literally was this far in the air http://www.stuntworld.co.uk/i/1-two-wheel-driving.jpg

at that point, its a letdown NOT to roof it. :lol:

[blkaplan]

at that point, its a letdown NOT to roof it. :lol::rant::pow:

[pooprah]

camber?

[blkaplan]

camber?

how bouts it?

http://www.pbase.com/blkaplan/image/46683974.jpg

[pooprah]

triangle roof?:lol: lead wheels? or put some 6 piston calipers and 17" rotors on it

[gdogg16]

the jerk store called, they're running out of you
:-P

[wuzilla]

Bne - what kind of shocks you running?

And one from the archives:

http://waiautox.org/2000/saturn.jpg

[blkaplan]

Bne - what kind of shocks you running?

And one from the archives:



hehe, i remember that. I am running some koni double adjustable inserts in the front and some coilovers i had koni make for me in the rear.

[BB-Q]

Carbon roof skin would actually do very little to help. The actual skin of the roof weighs very little. If you take the reinforcement out then you need to make the carbon strong enough to replace it. Lots of work for the beneift, in my opinion. I'd get it lower, if I were you- but I'm no expert.
For the body you'd get the biggest benefit from Lexan windows. Seriously, take the glass out of a car that size and weigh it. You'll be amazed how heavy it is.

[blkaplan]

Carbon roof skin would actually do very little to help. The actual skin of the roof weighs very little. If you take the reinforcement out then you need to make the carbon strong enough to replace it. Lots of work for the beneift, in my opinion. I'd get it lower, if I were you- but I'm no expert.
For the body you'd get the biggest benefit from Lexan windows. Seriously, take the glass out of a car that size and weigh it. You'll be amazed how heavy it is.

I beg to differ,

the roof skin weighs ALOT. Its a fairly big piece of relatively thick sheet metal. Add the tar paper on it that you need to keep it from humming on the highway and you got atleast 30 lbs up in the air....

The glass in the 240 is ALOT lighter then the steel roof is. the flat glass windows on the 245 are not thick. lexan sucks, its not very durable, it looks like crap, and it scratches.

[BB-Q]

I beg to differ,

the roof skin weighs ALOT. Its a fairly big piece of relatively thick sheet metal. Add the tar paper on it that you need to keep it from humming on the highway and you got atleast 30 lbs up in the air....

The glass in the 240 is ALOT lighter then the steel roof is. the flat glass windows on the 245 are not thick. lexan sucks, its not very durable, it looks like crap, and it scratches.

Have you ever actually held a roof skin in your hands? I seriously doubt it. I have though. Go cut the roof skin off a scrap car, take the glass out and weigh the two. You'll find the glass is much heavier.
I've just been up in the attic and moved the side glass around from my 142 (note: 142, not 145) and it weighed a bloody ton. I used to banger racing in my youth and most vehicles, once you took the glass out, looked like you'd taken the engine out, they jumped up on the suspension that much.

[blkaplan]

Have you ever actually held a roof skin in your hands? I seriously doubt it. I have though.

I have, its was pretty easy when we sectioned a 145 to feel the weight of the different panels... IT IS HEAVY.

The volume of the roof skin of a 245 is roughly 198in^3 times that by the density of the steel (.283 lb/in^3) and you get 56 lbs. Add in the weight of the tar paper. There is a bunch of it on the later 245's lets assume its 15 lbs.

You can make a stronger and stiffer roof out of carbon that weighs about 8 lbs.

56 of steel + 15 of tar paper - 8 lbs of replacement carbon = 63 lbs. A freaking 63 lb saving on the highest point of the car... you don't think thats significant? The windows centroid of mass is much lower then the centroid of the roof....

[Matt]

Bne - what kind of shocks you running?

And one from the archives:

http://waiautox.org/2000/saturn.jpg

At this point, I'd be scared ****less. HOWEVER, it would make the most AWESOME story ever.

"This one time, when I almost roofed a Saturn..."

EDIT: Would that be "Roofed," or "Rooved?"

[WheyDey]

what tire pressure you running tribengles?

[blkaplan]

36 front and 26 rear.

The v710 don't need / want much pressure. Especially since the 285 is stretched on my 10.5" wheel.

[WheyDey]

pressure's right on. damn. what about using chassis flex to your advantage? try taking the strut tower bars off the firewall (if you even have it set up like that)

[blkaplan]

pressure's right on. damn. what about using chassis flex to your advantage? try taking the strut tower bars off the firewall (if you even have it set up like that)

Chassis flex and advantage in the same sentence? If anything I need a stiffer chassis, the answer is a lower CG

[Captain Bondo]

the answer is a lower CG

that is basically the only thing that will help without introducing a tradeoff in grip.

The bottom line is that the cornering forces are pulling the car over. Car needs to be lower/lighter up top.

[blkaplan]

that is basically the only thing that will help without introducing a tradeoff in grip.

The bottom line is that the cornering forces are pulling the car over. Car needs to be lower/lighter up top.

I think its been said like 5 times in this post and yet people are answering incorrect solutions. :???:

[Tuff240]

.

[sparks]

Think most of the problem is the how the driver controls the car. Ive seen great handling cars looking really bad and really quite mediocre cars going pretty well on the track. Controlling a car is a major skill we all think we are good at. Probably the cheapest way to improve the handling of any car is have some proffessional tuition from a good race driver. It usually proves just how poor we are. I'm not saying in this case it was the drivers fault, but in many cases .. the main problem with the handling of the car is with the driver.. I know - i've had two on their roof and both were my fault !

doh .. didn't read properly - he was a proffesional

[pooprah]

im betting mike has adhd and reacts too fast

[Tuff240]

.

[Wagner]

Carbon roof skin would actually do very little to help. The actual skin of the roof weighs very little.

We can questimate the weight of the roof.

The roof dimension is approximately 1,3 meter x 2,7 meters, and if we agree that it is made out of 1mm steel plate (could be 1,2 as well, i don't really know), we can calculate that the cubic capacity of the roof skin is 0,00351 m3.

Density of steel is 7860 kg/m3, so the weight of the roof skin is approx 27,5 kg, which is approx 60 lbs.

Of course it would not be 60 pounds of, as you would replace the roof with a lighter one. Don't really know the density of carbon fibre of the material thickness used for a roof skin, so i will not say anything about the weight or the carbon skin.

But however it would be weight of from the highest possible point, which is most effective in this situation.

Maybe do both for best effect?

EDIT: Oh, looks like the calculations were already done by the owner. Nevermind then...

[red245]

I have, its was pretty easy when we sectioned a 145 to feel the weight of the different panels... IT IS HEAVY.

The volume of the roof skin of a 245 is roughly 198in^3 times that by the density of the steel (.283 lb/in^3) and you get 56 lbs. Add in the weight of the tar paper. There is a bunch of it on the later 245's lets assume its 15 lbs.

You can make a stronger and stiffer roof out of carbon that weighs about 8 lbs.

56 of steel + 15 of tar paper - 8 lbs of replacement carbon = 63 lbs. A freaking 63 lb saving on the highest point of the car... you don't think thats significant? The windows centroid of mass is much lower then the centroid of the roof....

Where do you intend to get a carbon roof made? I'm not going to jump on the bandwagon and say DROP MAOR AND LOWER CG, because that would just be beating a dead horse.
Let me know if you have a lead on it, I'm looking to drop the CoG on my wagon as well. Still in progress, but I dumped a nice chunk of weight already.

[towerymt]

Where do you intend to get a carbon roof made? I'm not going to jump on the bandwagon and say DROP MAOR AND LOWER CG, because that would just be beating a dead horse.
Let me know if you have a lead on it, I'm looking to drop the CoG on my wagon as well. Still in progress, but I dumped a nice chunk of weight already.
DIY. We've already talked about it. I still think a donor car would be best to make the mold from. That way you don't have to worry about the roof distorting when it's cut off (say, at the junkyard, and then brought back to the shop for mold making).

[Mark]

That's scary but awesome. Is there any areas inside the vehicle that haven't been addressed to move the CG around? Battery relocate etc? I realize it'd kinda be like p1ssin' in the ocean but every little bit helps...


How does F/R roll center figure into all this stuff? Would changing roll center height help/be feasible or is it pretty much dictated by suspension design/CG? I don't know my ass from a hole in the ground on this stuff, just curious.



CF wagon roof group buy? :-P

M.

[Lord_Athlon]

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[volvorod85]

Thats what I need..a vacuum cleaner to suck my car to the ground!

Mark

[speedn_j]

slap some cheap perellis on the wagon..

[Captain Bondo]

Are you guys going to cage it when you do the CF roof?

I think it might be a complicated project if unibody strength/rigidity is a consideration.

I suppose it would need to essentially be "sleeved" with tubular aluminum insert embedded in and fit over top of the A/B/C/D pillars... for the attachment points I mean...

[JE Jr]

I totally mised this thread when it was new. Cool.

I think the newest 245s got an aluminium tailgate, but maybe you already got one?

And have a mesaure on your side window thickness, I think earlier models got 3mm, and I think newer models got 4mm.

[The Aspirator]

Wow Towery, you're nuts.

[550]

Agreed with above! hehehe

[DurableSwedish]

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I've seen that car before in GRM...goodness, you say you are an engineer? no Wai! That guy is definitely not breaking any stereotype molds.

[blkaplan]

I think the newest 245s got an aluminium tailgate, but maybe you already got one?

The late 245s never got aluminum talegates, thats a myth thats been circled on the internet. I have checked a bunch of them at the junkyard and they are always steel.

[blkaplan]

Are you guys going to cage it when you do the CF roof?

I think it might be a complicated project if unibody strength/rigidity is a consideration.

I suppose it would need to essentially be "sleeved" with tubular aluminum insert embedded in and fit over top of the A/B/C/D pillars... for the attachment points I mean...

It will get caged, not sure if it will happen at the same time as the roof. The way i am planning on doing it should be much stiffer then the factory steel and much lighter.

[stylngle2003]

The late 245s never got aluminum talegates, thats a myth thats been circled on the internet. I have checked a bunch of them at the junkyard and they are always steel.

745/945 FTW!

the Al tailgate is much lighter than 245 ones

[Matt]

No tailgate is lighter than an Ally one. :P

[Captain Bondo]

Eh, making a CF tailgate will be cake vs. building a roof. Might as well buy enough material to do both...

[GrandmaSideways]

Eh, making a CF tailgate will be cake vs. building a roof. Might as well buy enough material to do both...

Might as well just re-do the ENTIRE CAR in CF.

If I had fabrication skills I would permanently be on a slippery slope, can you tell?

[volvorsport]

build a volvo powered seven , no more turny over .

[blkaplan]

the Al tailgate is much lighter than 245 ones

too bad the rest of the car sucks :-P

[blkaplan]

Eh, making a CF tailgate will be cake vs. building a roof. Might as well buy enough material to do both...

currents plans are fenders, hood, roof, tailgate...

eventually doors.

[CaptainLeah]

maybe with a cf tailgate it won't crack the window when my 20 year old shocks fail and it slams down on my head :grrr:

[Captain Bondo]

Carbon fiber engine block = black block? :rofl:

Speaking of weight I am tossing around the idea of doing a 16ga header- just one to try it. Should be roughly 7lbs lighter than stock... let me know if you'red interested...

[blkaplan]

Carbon fiber engine block = black block? :rofl:

Speaking of weight I am tossing around the idea of doing a 16ga header- just one to try it. Should be roughly 7lbs lighter than stock... let me know if you'red interested...

I tried to IM you about making that last night...

[Captain Bondo]

ya I actually half thought you might have been thinking the same thing. :rofl:

[2fast242gt]

currents plans are fenders, hood, roof, tailgate...

eventually doors.

you cant get much lighter than the factory fenders...

[blkaplan]

you cant get much lighter than the factory fenders...

WRONG, there is probably at least 10lbs to be saved between both of them maybe more.

[towerymt]

you cant get much lighter than the factory fenders...
We can do a lot better than 12lbs per front fender which is how much the steel ones weigh. Weight off the nose of the car is good, even if it's just ~10lbs.

[2fast242gt]

WRONG, there is probably at least 10lbs to be saved between both of them maybe more.

im sure there is but we will see. the fenders on 240s are light as hell. i have seen fiberglass ones b4 and they weighed more.... you would have to make the fender pretty thin with not a whole lota plys.

[Captain Bondo]

im sure there is but we will see. the fenders on 240s are light as hell. i have seen fiberglass ones b4 and they weighed more.... you would have to make the fender pretty thin with not a whole lota plys.


You'd be suprized how stiff a even very thin vaccuum infused carbon panel is. You'd save 30% vs steel easy, even 18gauge.

[amargill19?]

what about a pimpin' carbon fibre dash?

[Captain Bondo]

what about a pimpin' carbon fibre dash?

I'm considering it. :ninja: Mainly because I think theyd be a good product- uncracked dahses are getting harder to find/more expensive.

[amargill19?]

some idiot couldn't get my $10 cassette player out, so he decided to take big bolt cutters and cut the dash.

still couldn't steal my tape player 'deck'

but yeah, the douche nozzle destroyed a mint black dash and broke a window :roll:

icbc sourced out an uncracked black dash from some place and had it shipped.... (300$ deductible later)

[2fast242gt]

You'd be suprized how stiff a even very thin vaccuum infused carbon panel is. You'd save 30% vs steel easy, even 18gauge.

30% not a WHOLE lot considering the fenders weight like 7 pounds each. YES every bit counts but is ALL that worth it for two fenders? the roof and hatch will yeild ALOT greater savings. even the hood should be a big savings. jsut what i think.

[blkaplan]

I'm considering it. :ninja: Mainly because I think theyd be a good product- uncracked dahses are getting harder to find/more expensive.

I bought a brand new 93 dash for just that purpose.

:omg:

[Captain Bondo]

Sweet- another relatively heavy/high up part.

[stray]

No tailgate is lighter than an Ally one. :P

Lexan tailgate ftw :-P :rofl:

[don hodgdon]

Carbon fiber engine block = black block? :rofl:

Polimotor = Black Block

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plastic_engine

It's too bad they couldn't make this thing work. I saw it run in '84 and '85 at Riverside and have pics of the engine if anyone's interested. An interesting exercise but underfunded.

[F13ND]

I can't remember where I got these I'm pretty sure the site was swedish, but they were in my shweet 240 folder.
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a291/trevorreece/5321208.jpg
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a291/trevorreece/6557388.jpg
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a291/trevorreece/6888955.jpg

One in carbon would be siiick.

[Matt]

Lexan tailgate ftw :-P :rofl:

Polycarb still weighs more than no tailgate. :P

[Matt]

I can't remember where I got these I'm pretty sure the site was swedish, but they were in my shweet 240 folder.
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a291/trevorreece/5321208.jpg
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a291/trevorreece/6557388.jpg
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a291/trevorreece/6888955.jpg

One in carbon would be siiick.

Goatse Volvo.

[11110000]

Polycarb still weighs more than no tailgate. :P

Compromise; Saran-Wrap tailgate.

[GabAlmighty]

Well that looks like a fun day at the track


Oh those crazy Arabas and their cars

[blkaplan]

I can't remember where I got these I'm pretty sure the site was swedish, but they were in my shweet 240 folder.

Thanks for posting those, talking about a thread bump... Might give me some motivation to get moving on this 245 again.

[Jerd]

Thanks for posting those, talking about a thread bump... Might give me some motivation to get moving on this 245 again.

Its still my favorite car on the forum!

My opinions:

Completely strip it! every ounce of weight. Carbon fiber roof, tailgate, hood, and fenders. All lexan windows, full cage. A bit more power???

DO WORK SON!

[stray]

Wow, that fiberglass tailgate is dope.


Completely strip it! every ounce of weight. Carbon fiber roof, tailgate, hood, and fenders. All lexan windows, full cage.


Just go fiberglass/ FRP. The cost of carbon outweighs its usefulness these days. I mean, unless BNE can do his own carbon work and decides to make molds for all these parts... in which case :urgod: .

[Sir Psycho]

including the cheezy wannabe techno?

*all, i wanna do, is chase the punani!*

[pooprah]

Its still my favorite car on the forum!

My opinions:

Completely strip it! every ounce of weight. Carbon fiber roof, tailgate, hood, and fenders. All lexan windows, full cage. A bit more power???

DO WORK SON!

read the thread:-P