MegaSquirt killer.

[Bozzma]

This is nice:

http://www.bs-autotune.nl/pics/site/Bare.jpg

T-brickers price (outside of Europe) 240 euro + extra ignition driver for 4-cil wasted spark and shipping included !
Inside EU: 249 euro excluding shipping (~10-20 euro, ask for a quote) including tax and an extra ignition driver.

A new engine management system based on Megasquirt 2. It shares its processor and is therefore compattible with the same firm- and software. BUT:

It is better priced for what it does:

Table switching: on board.
USB: on board.
Knock-sense: on board.
Launch: on board.
RPM output: On board.
Boost-controll: On board.
PWM Idle Mod: On board.
Relay-output (for shift light)
More and more and more...
AND.. A JAW wideband on board... That is cool, or what ?

Check out my website for cool projects and to buy this product.

http://www.bs-autotune.nl

[mfpmax]

http://www.spectreperformance.com/emspro/
Something similar, just way more expensive

[Wagner]

That sounds interesting, too bad they have no information on that site in any language that i understand.

Is it a kit or does it come assembled? And is that board all you need? Are all the components really on that board and nothing else is needed?

How do you tune it, with megatune?

[crazy0000]

Is it a daughtercard? I don't get it

[Karl Buchka]

Looks pretty good. I would definitely consider this over a pure MS2 setup. How future proof is this thing with later versions of the MS2-E firmware?

What I don't like so far: Only 4 spark outputs, and it's still got that ****ty D-sub connector.

[Bozzma]

It is the FULL management system.

I am working on an english translation now (the link is to my site).

Anyway. It is an MS2 excluding housing. It is SMD soldered so it is not a kit, it is ready to install in a box and wire it to the car. I have the manual here:

http://www.bs-autotune.nl/pics/KdFi/kdFi20V1320English.pdf

So: It is the MS2 processor. But the rest is enhanced. So it is not a copy, it is the better version. Insiders know MS has some issues. We have solved that on these versions. We have implemented the folowing features:

- full compatible to MSextra Software (Megasquirt®)
- build your own setup
- MS2 onboard / Firmware MS2extra
- free Software / Open Source
- Fuel Table 16x16
- Ignition Table 12x12
- USB Conector
- Dimensions only 100x120mm
- Widebandlambdacontroller JAW on Board (JAW Processor not included)
- Upgradeable up to 8 single coils (6 coildriverchanels are available but require patching and skills...)
- Knocksensor Input
- supports low impedance injectors
- supports 2 und 3 polige Fast Idle Valves
- user programable Relaisoutput
- electronical boost control
- Tacho output
- permanent Barometric correction prepared
- Rev input via: VR-Sensor, Hallsensor or Coil at "Fuel only use"
- supports CAN Bus

The only thing you have to do is install it into the casing of your old engine management system, or like I have done: fit into a radio-schack box. I can also do this for you like like on this pic with megasquirt compatible connector + Wideband connector.

http://www.bs-autotune.nl/pics/KdFi/case.JPG

It also fits into a motronic housing:

http://www.bs-autotune.nl/pics/KdFi/Motronic.JPG

Here is a close-up of the connections of the board. The high-current grounds have seperate lugs to have a good connection.

http://www.bs-autotune.nl/pics/KdFi/print.JPG

Known tuningsoftware can be used. Here is a screenshot of the Tunerstudio software:

http://www.bs-autotune.nl/pics/KdFi/software.JPG

Compatability with upgrades: as long as the adresses for the "extra" features stay the same there is no problem. I don't think they will change that, it will make a lot of MS users very upset. Also... There is not much to change.... Every port allready has a function.. Should the firmware be changed that way it must be possible to patch that. B&G might not be that happy about it, but hey, it is not a straight copy. It is enhanced a lot. What have they done the last 5 years ? I can only hope they come up with something as good as this with an even better pricetag. Ow.. The hardware is compatible with the sequencer (that is not yet there ?) and other hardware that we are waiting for..

I hope I cleared it out a bit. If you like it, feel free to start a group buy !

Selling price is 249 euro. But for international shippings out of europe I can take 19% tax of. Shipping will be around 30 euro worldwide. Shipping to european countries will be cheaper though. Starting at 10 euro.

If there are any questions, I'll be happy to answer them.

[mfpmax]

So similar to VEMS and MS2 3.47(I think that's the SMD MS)?

[PRVersion]

this seems pretty cool...

[crazy0000]

It really does, I would love to try messing with something new, on a different car. Especially the built in wb controller?!

Still pretty expensive though, but there are a few things you can factor in that makes it cheaper.

[Bozzma]

VEMS is more expensive. I had one. But I didn't like it. The documentation was to much schattered. Also developpement is not that fast on VEMS. This unit listens to the guides on this site:

http://www.msextra.com/ms2extra/

Features are a bit alike though.

[ShadowofBob]

Looks cool. I like the fact that those extra features like USB, Tach Output, JAW, Knock sense, etc. were built in.

Does it still have the same limitations like no sequential injection and limited/no support for factory dual trigger setups found on Audi/VW/Porsche(can't handle 135 tooth VR sensor or syncing missing tooth atTDC signal and cam signals both at 0* TDC)? Can it handle up to 6 individual spark outputs like MS2e? Does it have E-fan control built in and can it handle only 1 knock sensor or would it be possible to run 2?

Looking for an alternative to MS for my 5cyl Audi.

[745 TurboGreasel]

Does having all the extras integrated have a negative affect on reliability/serviceability?
ie. I've seen a few 'My JAW blew up!' threads...
Excellent fitment in the stock ECU case, that can be a big help in California.

[linuxman51]

is this something you've done with the blessing of al and grippo? if not, you might find yourself in a bit of a tight spot, as the vems people did a long time ago (briefly, until they actually branched off the genboard and did things differently). Something to check into if you haven't yet, not trying to rain on anyone's parade.

[Bozzma]

The JAW has more cooling now. I expect that it doesn't need service at all. Once it runs well you don't need to service electronics. If you set the dwell to high or you enter stupid value's, short the injectors or put 12V on the 5V line... It will break. Most of the time it will just kill a driver and that can be fixed. SMD can be serviced but it is a little harder. The first boards were all manufactured by hand...


It does the same thing as a fully dressed MS2. At a fraction of the price. And it is not DIY. Therefore not messed up kits.

I fired up a BMW 3.0 CS today. I was very pleased with the behavour of the USB. It doesn't work as good as the old RS232 but other then a little delay after powering up there were no downsides. Also the RPM signal was super steady. Haven't seen it this good before. And I did loads of MegaSquirt installs. I installed an E-fan on the relay output. The downside is that it is connected to ground when the system is powered down. When you run the supply to the relaycoil from the ignition switch this is no problem.

I loved the way it performed today. The full new wiring started up the very first try.

I'll post a vid soon. I need to finish some hardware on this car first. It has a new enine in it out of an 530I.

It is not a copy. It shares the processor. There are better circuits in this board. I have the schematics right here.

[FlappySocks]

Nice. Wouldn't mind trying one in my Plug 'n Play builds. Does it support 3-wire idle control valves?

[linuxman51]

The JAW has more cooling now. I expect that it doesn't need service at all. Once it runs well you don't need to service electronics. If you set the dwell to high or you enter stupid value's, short the injectors or put 12V on the 5V line... It will break. Most of the time it will just kill a driver and that can be fixed. SMD can be serviced but it is a little harder. The first boards were all manufactured by hand...


It does the same thing as a fully dressed MS2. At a fraction of the price. And it is not DIY. Therefore not messed up kits.

I fired up a BMW 3.0 CS today. I was very pleased with the behavour of the USB. It doesn't work as good as the old RS232 but other then a little delay after powering up there were no downsides. Also the RPM signal was super steady. Haven't seen it this good before. And I did loads of MegaSquirt installs. I installed an E-fan on the relay output. The downside is that it is connected to ground when the system is powered down. When you run the supply to the relaycoil from the ignition switch this is no problem.

I loved the way it performed today. The full new wiring started up the very first try.

I'll post a vid soon. I need to finish some hardware on this car first. It has a new enine in it out of an 530I.

It is not a copy. It shares the processor. There are better circuits in this board. I have the schematics right here.

slow down chief, i'm not trying to rain on your parade. It looks like you've got a lot of time tied up in this and I was just curious if it was something that was already cleared with the MS people. Ultimately it doesn't matter & if the circuits are ones that you designed, all the more better. Basically I didn't want the thread to read like "Hey I've got this really cool MS clone" followed by "Hey I just got my butt sued off because of infringement/etc". Thats all :)

[fryea]

this is awesome!

How many cars in your neck of the woods are running this thing?

How long ago did it come out?

Any high HP builds out there yet with it implemented?

[carnut1100]

Looks cool.......but still more expensive than a MS.

[Bozzma]

1. I did not make it.. Sue me for what ? No mail yet, we'll see.

2. No it is not more expensive then MS. Not after you count all the extra's and building time in. There is also VAT included (19%) that I have to take off when it is for export auto of the EU.

3. PWM Idle is supported.

[Bozzma]

4. I have the first up and running in the shop. But... The developper drives an BMW M5 with it. It is quite new. So not to many. Won't take long though.....

[AnthonyH]

I am in. Please tell me how I can pay.

[Bozzma]

Just sent me an e-mail. Go to my website and sent me an e-mail trought the contact form, or use the domain and set info before the AT.

http://www.bs-autotune.nl

When you have received it, please write a review ? If you encounter any problems you can allways give me an e-mail. I'll be glad to help you.

[Bozzma]

I have done some research: I can pull the Tax off. That makes the board EURO 210 + 30 shipping = 240 euro
I can add a IGBT driver for the T-bricks members. That makes the board able to do DIS / wasted spark ignition.

[Alex Buchka]

This is a ridiculously good price guys. Everything is already pre-wired on the board including a friggin wideband controller. This will save hundreds of dollars and many hours of headscratching if you are a first time MS'er. I wouldn't hesitate to buy this for a second (assuming it proves reliable ;-) )

[FlappySocks]

Have to agree. It's good value for money if you need all the options. Not sure why it would be a time saver. The MS 3.57 board has been around a while now, and is well supported and reliable.

[Timppa]

Everything can be cheap when all the work has been done by someone else.
This is just stealing from MS, nothing else.

http://www.turbosport.co.uk/showthread.php?t=135721

[Alex Buchka]

Stealing or not, this thing is what bowling and grippo should have done YEARS ago. Someone else has filled the gap and I applaud the effort.

[Group A]

Everything can be cheap when all the work has been done by someone else.
This is just stealing from MS, nothing else.

http://www.turbosport.co.uk/showthread.php?t=135721Cut n paste of Bowling and Grippo's reply post:

"Bruce Bowling and Al Grippo here...

Let us make our comment on this... This unit does not have License Agreement in place for reproducing MegaSquirt hardware. Reproduction of MS requires a specific license agreement for the end product if it encompasses MegaSquirt IP. MegaSquirt hardware and control algorithms are patented, and the code is the respective copyright of the authors.

For those who do not know, MegaSquirt is an EMS where the hardware and software are freely available and documented for users to read, modify, and extend for their own use. Duplication of the hardware for commercial resale is permitted with a license agreement, this is straightforward to obtain (as several have done). In addition, resources for MegaSquirt, including documentation, forum support, etc are funded by the sale of MegaSquirt units and are only available to licensed MS derivatives.

With this said, let us offer a few unstructured sentences on the hardware presented here... We have struggled with the double-edged sword of making the hardware and software for MS easily available to individuals who want to learn engine controls, along with documentation that pulls the whole design together. We could keep everything hidden and secret in order to protect the IP. However, we feel that the subject of engine control is very complex and thus we have revealed the inner working of the unit as an educational tool.

The problem of having the entire project available is theft. This is the double-edged sword aspect in which we struggle with every day. It would be OK if it just affected us.. however, the project is more complex and the effect is greater than just B&G. In any effort, including MegaSquirt, the need for funding is real in order to keep it alive and available for a long time, as well as keeping it improving over time. The proceeds of resales of MS are used to keep forums up and running, fund MegaSquirt meets, and fund future projects (like MSIII, which is moving along nicely and will be a smartly-integrated, fully-functional unit).

In addition, the liberal means for a organization (or person) to become a MegaSquirt reseller has lead to many new companies that make their living reselling MS products - they would not exist today had it not been for the mechanism set in place to become a reseller. These individuals have followed the path of assisting the MS project and are feeding their families on the small profits they earn from the resell efforts they provide. Its a lot of work for the relatively small profit margin they earn. So, not only has MegaSquirt provided education on engine control, it has provided a method for people to make a living doing something the like to do.

So whenever we see a theft of MegaSquirt, we realize that this impacts many people who depend on MS for their income. We also find it real interesting that the theft efforts are always the same - change a few things around and declare it superior. For some reason the theft is always just to duplicate what has already been done. There are literally thousands of different aspects of automotive control that is waiting for someone to tackle (e.g. ion sensing, traction control, etc), but its always a rehash of what's already been done. We all yearn for truly new, not a repeat of the same. But it is easy to produce a rehash (especially when everything is open for view) than it is to come up with something new and innovative - or maybe its lack of knowledge in the areas required to pull a new system together.

Many people know that MegaSquirt is purposely uncomplicated and the feature sets are specifically versatile to allow different configurations. We believe in a modular approach in MS, allowing the user to integrate MS as part of a larger system where the user makes the choices on what to use.

From our "perch" as developers and maintainers of an EMS unit we have learned quite a lot, and we want to comment on a few features that counterfeit units often have:

- On MS products we have kept the RS-232 serial port as the communications port. There is a reason for this and its not that we are too dumb to add USB (or need to wake-up). We realize that serial ports are no longer offered as standard products on laptops. However, the issue is interoperability of all of the various USB devices and the real problems that arise. In many of the products the USB port interface is one of three vendors - Ftdi, Silicon Labs, or Prolific. The issue is that if a user already has another USB device with the same chipset then conflict may occur, it depends on the driver. Its a real issue for people and not an easy one to fix. We have many indicate that they cannot get Ftdi to work but Prolific works, and vice-versa. And if the USB interface chip is soldered down on the EMS, and it does not work with your laptop, then you may be out of luck (but you should demand that the seller either fix the problem or refund the money - hopefully they are still around and have not gone away...).

Serial-to-USB cables are inexpensive (like $10) and are available with different chipsets. And once the Virtual Com and cable work, then all of your RS-232 devices also work. In our minds the correct way to implement USB is with a USB controller and drivers which are developed in-house and the interface is solid for many installations. Using serial port replacement chips can be real support headaches

- Wideband controllers on-board the EMS. Again, its the aspect of choice, and when someone makes this for you you are stuck with it for the long term. I do not know anything about the JAW setup, it may be excellent. And I believe that the developer also posted circuits and schematics. However its the same thing, if it does not work then who do you go to - the JAW person, or the EMS person who put down the circuit? Maybe both point to each other to direct for support? And what if you do not want to use JAW, but maybe Innovate, PLX, etc? What if you blow up the on-board WB controller, who fixes it? If its a SMT board and there is a problem, then its outside of the capabilities of most so the board *must* go back to the reseller for repair/replacement (demand this).

Maybe the JAW developer, who put his resources into the product, swhould get the sale of the JAW controller - instead of being cut out entirely. Again, when it support time...

- The "my tach circuit is better than your tach circuit..." We *love* this one! The reality is that for some installs obtaining a good tach signal can be difficult. And sometimes switching EMS units the tach works. Whats interesting is that in another installation, the exact opposite occurs - the non-working EMS now works and the other one doesn't. Go look on all of the major EMS vendors support site - you will see lots of posts on obtaining a decent tach input. You will also see lots of success stories of working installations. Same thing with MegaSquirt - there are installs with tach issues, an there are many thousands of running installations with no tach issues at all. Its the nature of the beast.

With MegaSquirt the approach is for people to try to understand where the noise is coming from and provide remedies to correct. The MegaSquirt tach input is very sensitive, needed for low-output signals during cranking. It can also pick up noise, so its a tradeoff. But since you have the circuit diagram, and it is documented and understood, you then have the tools to correct if you have issues. Again, flexibility and user-choice is key.

There is a lot to a tah input, noise is one aspect. Noise can be corrected with a filter on the VR input but this then indroduces phase shifts in the signal at higher RPMs - so now the zero crossing has shifted and the timing also shifts as well. Something to watch out for.

Finally, be sure that there is a lot of new items on the horizon, these are new and innovative, not rehashes of whats already been done. The whole EMS thing needs to be taken to the next level.

This is all we have to say on the subject. And we thank those who have supported the MS project.

B&G"

[Bozzma]

I think it is wise to not react on this post. People that know their stuff and are in need for the right features will make the right choice for themselfs. I personaly think KdFi enhances the "MegaSquirt comunity" since more people will use the same platform.

As mentioned in the License Agreement there is no money involved for B&G.

See this link and reed it very good. Compare it to the post just made by B&G. And wonder why they haven't upgraded the product in years. If the MS3 will see the light (we are still waiting for GPIO) it may flush away KdFi. I sure hope so. That means we get even better stuff for our cars for even less money. It is so nice of them that they do all of this and funding a lot of people before it gets in your car. Even the ones that make horrible boards.

http://www.megamanual.com/copy.htm

I am full of conflicts now and I don't know what to beleve. I might have choosen the term "megasquirt killer" very wrong. My appologies for that. But I still have no full featured MegaSquirt that suits my needs and my demands for these implementations (proper inplemented instead of cramped into proto or daughtercard).

I am not here to upset people in any way, not even B&G as I have bought a lot of boards from them. I just wanted to present a board that is introduced filling a gap in the market that was left. You might have your own oppinion about that. But it is all off-topic and I do not think it will add anything to the functions of KdFi or MegaSquirt. People will still decide for their own to either buy the more expensive MegaSquirt with less functions standard on-board or the cheaper KdFi that has most of the features. Have it your own way.

[the poi]

They could just pay the 4-2% licensing fee, and then it's all kosher, and it gets support on the forums, and everything's cool. Hopefully, the designer didn't realize this had to be done, and is now pursuing it, and it's all a big misunderstanding. But if it's being marketed as "better than MS" and "based on MS" when it actually is MS, I have a feeling the designer is trying to avoid licensing. Or most likely, he didn't realize licensing was so ridiculously cheap and claimed his repackaged MS is not MS preemptively.

[RvolvoR]

See, the thing is that they arent really ripping off B&G because this thing still uses the MS2 processor and that processor is still a B&G part....they just decided to make a different board for it to go on...

[Bozzma]

The processor is a digikey item for your info... B&G just made it on a daughtercard with some pins not connected.. FFS, why?

If it is just 2-4% they wouldn't have to be bothered at all. But.... I am not the one to talk to. I just pointed you to it.

[Obeharskad122s]

I dig it.

Send B&G a couple bucks off each one and nobody will have anything bad to say.

[Bozzma]

You might be right.

[Obeharskad122s]

Thinking about it a little more...there's quite a few things I like about this...

You're NOT forced to use the DB37, the board has some solid soldering lugs for ins and outs, so that means you can stuff it in a stock auto computer box (probably why the box itself is sold separate).

Using the same off the shelf chipset and open-source software dosen't qualify as a ripoff.

So they did a little reverse engineering to an open-source product in an attempt to push the industry forward...Good job. You think this is anything new to the electronics industry? Ha!

Supports CAN bus...MMM.

[linuxman51]

Thinking about it a little more...there's quite a few things I like about this...

You're NOT forced to use the DB37, the board has some solid soldering lugs for ins and outs, so that means you can stuff it in a stock auto computer box (probably why the box itself is sold separate).

Using the same off the shelf chipset and open-source software dosen't qualify as a ripoff.

So they did a little reverse engineering to an open-source product in an attempt to push the industry forward...Good job. You think this is anything new to the electronics industry? Ha!

Supports CAN bus...MMM.

They didn't have to reverse engineer anything, most if not all of the schematics are available for peer review. Hence 'open source'.

You're not technically forced to use the db37 as it stands now, everyone just does.

The chip employed on this and the ms2 daughterboard supports CAN, so that shouldn't be any surprise.

Just because you can go out and build a PC-clone with off the shelf parts does NOT mean you get windows for free, and lets say you load linux on there, you can't call dell and expect support. THIS is what B&G are talking about. You effectively get no support, say you run into a strange problem that the designer didn't anticipate/cannot solve, you're SOL, which would equate to wasted money.

[Bozzma]

Err... Excuse me ? I received a PM from you requesting a quote ?


Hey bud, Am I reading the thread right, that the price shipped to the US for one is 231 euros? (249 - 19% + 30 shipping)

If thats the case, thats a hell of a deal!

-k.


That isn't fair is it ? Calling it a hell of a deal and then tell others to not go into it ? Either this is a hell of a deal, or B&G and their resellers are making a lot on their units ? I can tell you: the resellers don't have to much of a margin.


Yupyup.

http://www.bs-autotune.nl/pics/KdFi/Motronic.JPG

[Sander]

Well, i just ordered one for my B234F+T, so i'll let you know how it goes :-P

Did you send it Bozzma? ;-) let me know when you receive the JAW chips again ;-)

[linuxman51]

Err... Excuse me ? I received a PM from you requesting a quote ?



That isn't fair is it ? Calling it a hell of a deal and then tell others to not go into it ? Either this is a hell of a deal, or B&G and their resellers are making a lot on their units ? I can tell you: the resellers don't have to much of a margin.


Yupyup.

http://www.bs-autotune.nl/pics/KdFi/Motronic.JPG

I personally do not need one, and yes I did pm you to clarify costs. Re-read my post.

And I know almost exactly how much margin the resellers get, I happen to be good friends with one of them. If you still have any questions about my post, or need clarification, let me know. I don't see anywhere in there where I told anyone to not buy your product.

[Obeharskad122s]

I'd like to see a heat sink on all those FETs/drivers...

[Zeep]

The sinks are on the other side, between the PCB and the motronic housing.

[fryea]

Bump? Anyone been reliably using one of these yet? Im HIGHLY interested :)

[the poi]

Bump? Anyone been reliably using one of these yet? Im HIGHLY interested :)

It's MSII-extra, so yes, a lot of people are reliably using this.

[fryea]

It's MSII-extra, so yes, a lot of people are reliably using this.

Yes, I realize that, but Im more concerned about the quality of the board and the function of all the additional, prebuilt features (JAW, PWM, knock, etc)

[Bozzma]

We will go on... Available in Januari. Pre-order now.

http://www.bs-autotune.nl/pics/KdFi/behuizing.JPG

KdFi in a proper housing with a proper connection. Also supporting EGT (K-thermocouple).

I have succesfully integrated a couple of these systems in custumers vehicles now. One doing bi-fuel (Liquid Propane Injection) with just one KdFi using "switching tables". An other one in a BMW 3.0 CS (now being a 3.0 CSi) and it drives like a dream. Torque all over the place. There is also one in a hot hatch that is waiting to be tuned. I have played with the launch settings in the workshop, creating loud BANG's in the workshop from the exhaust. Superb !

I love it. I hope you do too. The single thing missing was a proper case with some hardcore superduty connectors.

Take a look at my website or sent me a PM / email :-)

And shut up about being a copycat. This goes way beyond just being a copy or cheap ripoff. This has everything every MegaSquirt owner has left to wish.

http://www.bs-autotune.nl

Tuning is fun ! Don't spoil it !

[Mueller]

very professional looking....heck, I'd just like to have the case and the connectors for my old MS :)

nice website as well, looks like you have your stuff together !!!!

[Boosted2003]

Supports CAN bus...MMM.

That would be nice. Might start seeing vw/audi/porsche people start putting these in late models

[Karl Buchka]

MS2 has had CAN bus support since it came out, that doesn't mean it can actually do anything useful with it though.

[the poi]

And shut up about being a copycat. This goes way beyond just being a copy or cheap ripoff.
It isn't a copy or cheap ripoff. It is Megasquirt.


This has everything every MegaSquirt owner has left to wish.

This statement is internally inconsistent.

[Bozzma]

It isn't a copy or cheap ripoff. It is Megasquirt.
This statement is internally inconsistent.

Well... Just buy an MS then and do without all the extra features or spend a day to implement them on a amaturistic way. And most important: stay in your box and don't you dear thinking outside of it. In fact: stop all the clocks you own, maybe it stops all evolutions around you and you can keep up. Put your fingers in your ears and your hands before your eyes and keep saying "Megasquirt has the best design becouse they were first". It may become the truth if you beleve hard enough. You know what? Volvo made their cars top notch. They are the best without modifications too. Stick to a stock car and grow old.

[MikeHardy]

you are completely miss understanding what there saying.

there not saying MS is the best and doesn't move on. but just because they have implemented extra features on board without having to mess about afterwards doesn't mean that they haven't stolen B&G's intellectual property,

And shut up about being a copycat. This goes way beyond just being a copy or cheap ripoff.
This has everything every MegaSquirt owner has left to wish.

by using MS2 code etc there are ripping off B&G, i'm sure there board is great, but to not be a ripoff variant of MS they would need to write there own code/operating system other then MS

[the poi]

Well... Just buy an MS then and do without all the extra features or spend a day to implement them on a amaturistic way. And most important: stay in your box and don't you dear thinking outside of it. In fact: stop all the clocks you own, maybe it stops all evolutions around you and you can keep up. Put your fingers in your ears and your hands before your eyes and keep saying "Megasquirt has the best design becouse they were first". It may become the truth if you beleve hard enough. You know what? Volvo made their cars top notch. They are the best without modifications too. Stick to a stock car and grow old.

But it is Megasquirthttp://www.pbase.com/765ti/image/92505648.jpg

[Bozzma]

I am getting tired of this. Go on downloading the rest of you MP3 collection, XVID's and software stuff. This is not just a copy. A copy would have the same design, same format, same circuits and so on. It does use the MSextra code but it is free available to anyone and it is not ripping of anyone. If you wan't to donate the writers of that code which I think would be a good thing (but not possible ?) anda whole different story. Just look at this product in an objective way instead of hammering it down as a cheap ripoff. You are obstructing people that are new to this world and do not have the availability of spending days to get some nice circuitery together to make all extra features available. Sorry you may have bought the wrong product but I am still glad you are still happy with it (are you ?)

I'd rather have you saying me what you don't like about the design / features. We might be able to implement that in the next batch we produce. But so far we haven't heard a thing about any downside of the product other then "you were not the first to develop this".

Anyway, I think I have shown you that it is quite easy to devellop something new very quickly. I still think this will improve the MS-extra scene as it is more easy to use the available options as knock-sense, switching tables, E-fan, 8 coil-support, Launch / flatshift JAW, Etc. Etc. Etc. As I have understood there is no money-flow from B&G to the writers of that code, since they have their own code. If anyone deserves credits and rewards then it is the writers of the Extra code. For them it is quite easy to ask some money for it in a form of donation.

Again, I have build quite some MegaSquirts and I know what they are about. For my business they were just to "undressed". It turned out they are overpriced too. Last but not least: they lack circuitery since MSextra code came out.

So stop nagging about this, being more holy than the pope. Because I will not disapear. If you wish so: just close your eyes and shout "not there, not there". It might help for some individuals.

Instead: tell me what you don't like about it and I will see If I can make it even better. Can you ? Or are you just another tyre kicker that knows it all so well ?

[MikeHardy]

no one is labelling it as a cheap ripoff. I'm sorry if your seeing it that way, but it clearly states that users of MS intellectual property have to do so under license. you appear not to be so I'm shutting this thread.