Fuel injection and you (or what makes the box work?)

[linuxman51]

Here's what I'm going to do/did. I went and researched the more common MS variants, Dug around in the LH hacking world (interesting stuff), and then went and paid little more than basic homage to other off the shelf EMS systems (they wouldn't tell me what I'd want to know anyway, trade secrets and sh|t). This is what I found, and there follows a discussion on fuel injection, some speculation as to how LH works, and a discussion of how megasquirt works. Things (at least I think) everyone oughta know. This is *NOT* a tuning guide...


LH 2.2
Processor specs:
8-bit cpu
max memory of 4k
ram is either 64, 128, 256 (in volvos its 4k rom, and I *Think* 128 bytes of ram)
table size is 16x16

LH 2.4:
8-bit cpu
16x16 table
8k rom, 256 bytes of ram
20mhz max speed (not likely that it actually ran this)
Capable of addressing 128k of external ram (divided into two segments, 1 for storage one for ops) unlikely that bosch added external ram

MS ecu:
8mhz
32k rom, 512 bytes of ram
8x8 table for fuel and 8x8 table for ignition (currently)
8bit
Features: At least two programmable outputs that could be used as: e-fan control, intercooler sprayer/water injection, converter lock up, shiftlight, nos arming, almost anything that can be turned on.
With a code reflash you can have:
Distributorless ignition and fuel control ,along with the two mentioned outputs, A two step revlimiter has been implemented (think flat shift)
Ignition and fuel control with stock volvo components (doesn’t require fabbing of any triggers, not that this is difficult per-se)
Boost controller as well as an aditional injector controller (or additional injector controller along with water injection)
With the addition of a “daughter board” one could feasibly have full sequential injection, at the very least one gets


Haltech (E6x):
Rpm increments of 500/1000 rpms
32 point maps based on coolant temp? (website was fairly vauge about that)
Features:
Boost control , Engine control (?) , Electric fan , Fuel pump , Nos arming , Turbo timer Anti-lag, vtec, shiftlight, air conditioning, converter lockup

Electromotive Tec3:
· PC programmable and configurable for 1, 2, 3, 4, 6, 8, cyl. engines and Rotories with a 12 cyl.and 6 cyl dual plug option
· Operate in Open or Closed loop
· Run True Sequential, Phased Sequential or Simultaneous Injection with individual cylinder trim
· Configurable for TBI, MPI, TPI and individual throttle bodies
· Additional Injector Output Drivers built-in.. Run Low or High impedance injectors
· Full 150 mJ of Spark Energy directly to the plugs without misfire
· New Dual Rev Limiters with ‘Triple Smooth Technology’.. 1st step retards timing to a negative -12º degrees.. 2nd step cuts coil current in half.. 3rd step coil current and fuel are cut-off.. all three steps occurring within milliseconds!
· Waste Gate (Boost Control), Nitrous Control with up to 4 stage retard available
· Four Programmable GPO’s (General Purpose Outputs) to control or activate VTEC, Shift Lights, Water Pumps and Fans, A/C Compressor, Torque Converter and more.
· New Programmable Adjustable Electronic Tachometer Output
· Uses primarily GM type sensors
· Diagnostic monitoring with codes issued through Check Engine Light
· Easy to install bolt-on Trigger Wheel and Mag Sensor Kits available for many applications

Autronic SMC:
Sequential operation for 2 to 8 cylinder engines.
3D fuel and Ignition maps.
User defined up to 32 RPM and 16 Load sites = 512 sites.
Anti-Lag.
Flat Shift (ver 1.19).
Data Logging.
Software selectable trigger angle.
Support for multi-tooth or missing teeth triggers.
Auxiliary outputs other than fuel pump control
8 cyl engine = 1 (1 PWM output).
6 cyl engine = 3 (1 PWM + 2 On/Off)
4 cyl engine = 5(1 PWM + 4 On/Off)
Auxiliary outputs can be defined for boost control, nitrous oxide, camshaft timing, AC, fan control, idle valve etc...
Available with high current drivers if required.
AutoTune option available.

Motec:
Hard to say, couldn’t install their software (don’t ask) and the site doesn’t really do anything but blow smoke, however I’ve heard tell of something on the order of every 12 rpms

So, there we have a breakdown of the features of the stock fuel injection, megasquirt, and a couple other fairly common (at least in the us) aftermarket engine management systems(EMS’s). I really wish I could have gotten the chip specs for the other EMS’s, but I suspect that this would qualify as a trade secret, altho I’m willing to bet they’re just re-badged off the shelf processors. So what does this all mean? At a glance the stock stuff and ms both appear to be rather dated and minimally functional at best, and in the case of the stock ECU’s its hit or miss as to wether or not they’re programmable. As you can see from the above break down of 2.2 and 2.4, the two are fairly close to each other, and as the comment (note to self if you will) says, its not likely that bosch ran the 2.4 processor at its full speed, and the reason I say this is the 2.4 ecus are not ventilated (much like the 2.2 ecus) and even as late as 1990 a 20mhz processor would put out some decent heat. Also, when you look at what they were moving to and coming from, there really wouldn’t be any reason to run it that fast (altho they might very well have, I couldn’t find any specific info on that). Regardless of the clock speed, you’ve got two fairly limited ecu’s, not in power, but in memory, and its apparent why then volvo chose to use a 16x16 map. Why not larger? Bit math comes into play here, 16 * 16 gives you a map with 256 points on it (which many after market ems makers would scoff at—more on this later) The next largest easily divisible number is 32 (16 is 2^4, 32 is 2^5, by using numbers like that you get nice and very easily calculated numbers that greatly reduce the number of calculations the chip has to do just to look up a given point on a table, basically, you fiddle with the address space in a certain way and you get what you need without having to do anything fancy. This might sound silly to you non-software people, but trust me, it’s a common thing), which would net you a table size of 1024. Assuming a byte per point (it could be smaller, say half a byte) you’ve just soaked up ¼ of the space available on the 2.2 chip, now you’ve only got 3k within which to stick the runtime routine for the chip, the formulas required to interpolate, the coolant ref values, the rev limit, etc. Now, with megasquirt (and really I can only talk in depth about ms, because as stated before, none of the big ems people wants anyone to know whats under their hood), you’ve got a fair amount larger rom space, and twice the scratch pad the 2.4 processor has. The nice thing about the ms ecu is that the clockspeed=bus speed, so generally the processor doesn’t sit waiting for data to come back either from ram or rom (and I’m told there isnt any significant penalty for retrieving from rom vs ram), so things move on through in a fast mannor. With all this extra space, one might be tempted to ask “Why only 8x8?”. This is a good question (And don’t dare ask it on the mailing list unless you’ve got the very best asbestos on). There are a couple of reasons.. the formula megasquirt uses to interpolate between points on the map is fairly well documented as being “correct” (and for those of you in the crowd that are going to bitch about it having to calculate in between points, understand your beloved LH has to do the same thing, along with every other EMS, and what sepperates the men from the boys is how well coded & what algorithm they use, again, more on this later). The short reason for this (aside from the stauch defense of the blasters “it works damnit and I don’t want to have to mess with anything bigger”.. noobs) is at the time of implementation, they didn’t really need anything bigger. I’ll insert a bit of tuning theory in here: understand first, that the 8 rpms points and the 8 map points are not hard coded in the ecu, you pick them.. the idea being that you “cluster” the rpm points around your torque peak (but but but what about the horsepower peak? F the horsepower peak… There is no such thing as horsepower, it’s a calculated number that has no relevance to engine tuning other than bragging rights), what you’re trying to do is mimic on the map what your dyno chart looks like, and for the area where its changing most (the torque peak) you want a couple extra points close together to get that “good” tune. The points going up to the peak and falling away from the peak are generally linear, and as such don’t require as much attention. Despite this, I personally believe that a 12x12 or even a 16x8 (16 rpm, 8 map) would be nice, the latter probably becoming tiresome to tune. So why then, doesn’t everyone use this and make things easier on the end user. Couple reasons. Bosch didn’t because there’s a certain amount of overhead in calculating (at least in the mannor the ms guys do it, which is grabbing a certain radius of nearby points and working things out from there), and as one can see, theres a limited amount of space. Also, the larger the map the more accurate the interpolation is, and since the lh stuff got setup once, it wasn’t as big a deal to them to have a bigger map. Then there’s the PR factor (or the big dick factor) MY system has twice the map space of his system. What you should read into this is: I, the end user, now have to tune twice the number of points on the map when I change something. And then some of the systems (motec, iirc) have just an insane number of map points (I think e11 is like this as well), and also something many of the companies have to take into account is emissions, the modern motronics have data points ever 5 or 11 rpms (have fun tuning that, I think I’d rather have a carb).

When you start talking about extras, like programmable outputs, those are for the most part, side effects and or unused pins on the chosen chip, and the type and manor in which they function is related to what type of output on the chip that’s being used (basically its up to the engineers that work for a given company, they tend to use what they know best, so if you could get the info on the chips used, I suspect you’d find that they stick with the family of chips they know best, and anything beyond that is bonus). # of outputs has also started to turn into a pissing contest, in reality, you really only need a couple, Fan control is something I’d rather leave to the tried and true thermostat tied to a relay (and a switch on the dash to override the thermostat) NOS arming is also probably best left up to the organic matter behind the wheel (or maybe not depending..). And on a closing note, 8x8 is not limited to megasquirt, electromotive used to(and might still) use an 8x8 map, and it wouldn’t surprise me if others did as well, the methods employed in the megasquirt system are certainly not exclusive to it nor were they thought up exclusivly by its creators (contrary to what some of the zealots might tell you..).

So why is it so cheap would be the next question people ask and use to “talk down” about it.. For the same reasons commercial systems are expensive.. theres no warranty, no “live” tech support, no company overhead, and no rent to pay. Conversely, if you burn it up, its up to you to figure out how, why, and how to fix it, if it doesn’t work in your application, you get to either forge ahead on your own and figure it out, or you can post specifics and others can make recommendations (of course you 2,7and 900 series people don’t have to worry about that :-P). So far that’s worked fine. And a little kernel for those of you who aren’t using electromotive or sds, the vast majority of EMS’s come from australia & europe, so tech support is a long distance call and potentially another language, away…

[stealthfti]

Thank you....good work. I appreciate the effort you put in to put this together.

[the poi]

good write-up, cheers!

[TerribleOne]

Damn dogg! phat post. I bet your fingers must be tired :-P

[DeathWagon]

I got my MS workin
I got my MS workin
I got my MS workin
I got my MS workin
I got my MS workin
I got my MS workin


Just thought would tell someone
Oh and by the way
Thanks To Kenny Howard because without his help me and many other Volvo going to MSnS owners would be left with nothing but LH and EZK

[linuxman51]

Damn dogg! phat post. I bet your fingers must be tired :-P

hahaha, nah this was a several day project typed up in word (the forum has a nasty habit of biting me when i try to do big stuff)

[The Aspirator]

Thanks To Kenny Howard because without his help me and many other Volvo going to MSnS owners would be left with nothing but LH and EZKDitto to that! He's the man!

Very nice write up Kenny, there's alot of stuff there that I hadn't really thought about, and alot that kinda just went over my head. Although earlier today I was wondering what it would be like to have a 16x16 map, I think I'd love it! It would take longer to tune, but so what? Perfection is worth more than ease. Think the upgrade to more plots will ever happen?

John

[linuxman51]

Ditto to that! He's the man!

Very nice write up Kenny, there's alot of stuff there that I hadn't really thought about, and alot that kinda just went over my head. Although earlier today I was wondering what it would be like to have a 16x16 map, I think I'd love it! It would take longer to tune, but so what? Perfection is worth more than ease. Think the upgrade to more plots will ever happen?

John

if someone codes it there will be, its not a limitation of the chip, its a limitation to how its written (and people with their heads stuck in the sand). Really and truly a 12x12 would more than suffice for the current crop of ms's (the only thing that changes the equation would be something like vtec, where you end up with two torque peaks, a smallish one and then a bigger one).
but in terms of a/f, the 8x8 gave me this:
http://www.pbase.com/image/27230181.jpg (stop looking after about 4700, I had some screwy ignition problem that threw everything off). You've gotta figure tho, there are certain areas of the map (even with the 8x8) that you're never going to see (or very very rarely). No one makes 30psi at 800 rpms :), tuning my map was largly limited to following the boost across the map, and then trying to get the off boost stuff right in a similar mannor. I can see where some of the people who don't want to mess with it are coming from, it does get a little tedious after a while (but most of the time its fun). I've toyed with the idea of going through the code and doing it myself, the problem is in order to do so I'd have to re-write most of the ve table code in order to do so, and thats not really something that gets me pumped (its hard to get pumped over coding assembly tho).
we'll see what happens.

[dl242gt]

That's a great amount of information Kenny! Thanks very much for all your hard work.
Best regards,

[MattP]

Ignition is the true driver for larger maps in OEM applications. If you look at any published maps Bosch distributes with their books you will notice that the fuel map is much smoother in comparison to the ignition map. It is also nice to not compare the dyno graph(2d) of a car to the fuel map(3d). This totally ignores non wide open throttle areas of car's tractability. Which gets harped about on this board and brickboard even moreso.

While 8 x 8 is sufficient for a fuel only computer, MS&S would definitely benefit from a larger map. The only question then is how you going to tune it. To my knowledge there is no input for knock detection in MS or most EMS aftermarket. Dyno tune for the ultimate tune is almost a requirement. And you might need to go to a shop with a non fixed load dyno.

MS has other limitations. Boris has spoken negatively on several occasions about the professionalism of the hardware design. I am not an expert, but I have had failures on DB connectors on home computers in the past and those weren't put together by a rank amateur(me). Waterproof connectors aren't that expensive, but they would increase the installation cost by $40 or more.

All of these stated problems do not take away from the accomplishment of the first MS board. It did what it was intended for well. With the open community, it also does more than was thought possible several years ago, but you will notice that the next step in the development process is taking a lot longer than anyone thought.

I personally have two MS systems. But for an engine rebuild that I am spending $1000-2000 on, I would not like to rely on a $200 box that I put together.

Motec, EFITechnology, DTA, and Electromotive all have competent systems in the <$2000 range. These guys do provide support and have years of experience. Expensive yes, worth it maybe. I frickin' sound like a salesman.

Motec is a 40 x 21 map (840 points) on their M4 and M400, but most tuners I have talked to leave it at their old standard of 20 x 11 (IIRC). Their new software (M400) is very nice, but their old software(M4) is DOS based and I am not used to that style much anymore.

I would be on the Motec band wagon, but they nickel and dime you for everything. Datalogging, WB, and load maps for options

Thanks for the info Kenny. Very informative.

[linuxman51]

Fair enough Matt :)

With the dyno chart I wasnt trying to compare my fuel map with what produced power wise, I was just showing the consistency of the system with regards to the air/fuel. Lack of knock detection is indeed something else I would like to see change with ms, and I started researching that this past fall, on the surface it seems to be a fairly simple task: "pop..retard" but unfortuneately its a bit deeper than that (and school interfered). The fuel side of things is cheap, and I find it a little amusing that you don't trust something you put together (don't take that the wrong way, I dont mean it as a cheap shot or a slight on your work), and the connector is indeed a "strange" feature. Not really sure what they were aiming for with that, an econo seal connector m/f setup is only like 20-25 bucks (but thats a topic for a seperate discussion ;) ), i'm sure there was some reason (which left us with those bastard 37/9 pin parallel looking things). The board design might not be optimal, but I dont really see how that would precipitate failure, I'm curious to hear boris's thoughts on that.

But yea, the fuel side is cheap, the ignition side is where things get interesting, and personally I'd rather spend $300 or so on a ms & edis setup and then attach a j&s safeguard and call it good, You gotta think if the megasquirt melts down its not going to set your pulsewidth to 1.1 while you're blasting down the track, its gonna cut off and let you stew about it while you're getting towed back to the pits ;).


btw, with ms & s, its two seperate maps for a total of 128 map points. The purpose here isn't to say "don't buy anything but megasquirt", its more to expound upon ms, and lh, and I would expand that to include other ems's, but that info isn't readily available :). My only arguement is why chip lh when for about the same amount of green you can have a fully programmable setup thats not going to: limit you to a certain size & type of injector, a specific MAF, etc. And it compares nicely with the stock system.

If you want the ultimate EMS, snag the motronic 7.5 setup off of a 2002 audi, anything less than that is just a toy ;)

[volvo9]

Very interesting writeup! Good work! To think that in 94 you could buy a 100 Mhz 486 cpu, the motronic 2.4 running at 20 Mhz is higher that I would have thought, although it's an 8 bit cpu compared to a 32 bit 486, but still very interesting!

Now I wonder if I can overclock it! :-P

I know most of you will say go MS, BUT if I bought a chip for my LH 2.4, will there be a larger fuel map than the 16x16 that it's got?

[linuxman51]

i dont believe so, certainly not without significant design changes

[MetalgodZ]

Linuxman, you say to pull the EMS out of a 2002 Audi...

I know of a junkyard that moves about 5 or 6 Audis a week, so if this actually is usefull to a brick owner, I'll look out for one.

BTW, if you know anyone who needs Audi CIS distributors, I've got 2.

[linuxman51]

Linuxman, you say to pull the EMS out of a 2002 Audi...

I know of a junkyard that moves about 5 or 6 Audis a week, so if this actually is usefull to a brick owner, I'll look out for one.

BTW, if you know anyone who needs Audi CIS distributors, I've got 2.

I'm sure you could make it work, but it would take *quite* a while to set it up (its got a data point every 11 rpms from like 50 on up to 8000 or so...)

[TDi244]

I suggest the 8*8 map (being only 64 cells of tuneable area) is a step in the wrong direction when compared to the stock LH 16*16 (=256 points which is 192 more points then MS).

Yes it does make a difference. Try using large injectors and 10psi? Guess what? Each one of those 64 cells now has a larger jump to the next cell on the map. Interpolation? Sure, both the stock and MS ecus will do it, nothing magical there, just standard linear inlerpolation. You now have a very coarse map.

Next, tune for 20 psi. Now you have to stretch out those 64 cells even further, making each cell an even larger jump. Perhaps those 64 cells leave something to be desired; something to think about.

[linuxman51]

I suggest the 8*8 map (being only 64 cells of tuneable area) is a step in the wrong direction when compared to the stock LH 16*16 (=256 points which is 192 more points then MS).

Yes it does make a difference. Try using large injectors and 10psi? Guess what? Each one of those 64 cells now has a larger jump to the next cell on the map. Interpolation? Sure, both the stock and MS ecus will do it, nothing magical there, just standard linear inlerpolation. You now have a very coarse map.

Next, tune for 20 psi. Now you have to stretch out those 64 cells even further, making each cell an even larger jump. Perhaps those 64 cells leave something to be desired; something to think about.

If you think its that big of a problem, why don't you go ask the true gurus over on the mailing list.. hasn't been a limitation for me or a bunch of other people yet..

[Pennybridge Pioneer]

kenny, I think what you are doing here is wrong. why don't you just capitulate and aknowledge the ultimate superiority of the draw-through carbs? data points shmata points you sound like a bunch of computer nerds!!!









i think you should send me an MS&S set up so i can install it and show you how much it sucks http://www.pbase.com/image/28085365.jpg

[Captain Bondo]

Matt, I don't understand the gripe about only being able to tune it on a dyno. Dyno tuning is the only way to do it. On a more expensive ems it is even more the case. Dropping 2k on an EMS without having a dyno set map to go with it is like buying a new computer so you can play pac-man on it.

TDi can crunch the numbers himself ie %tolerance of sensor readings vs maximum potential error in interpolation vs. duty cycle resolution. Compare one system to another that costs 10x more and yeah you'll probably find flaws. Nobody's making you buy it. You can write it off, it's a free country- but I would investigate just what the real margin of error would be - I did and I was suprised :) This board tends to have a lot of people who like to write off mods before exploring them fully though... :roll:

[linuxman51]

the fastest 4cyl. on earth used megasquirt for their fuel needs (bonneville salt flat car).
If you wanna talk about testing the interpolation, they spun the motor up to god knows how high (1100 cc gsxr motor iirc).

And its kinda funny, everyone knocks it til they try it (I did, you can search back to april/may a year ago).
Is it everything and a box of cheese? No, but I have yet to see something better for the money. Its not all about the fuel either, as a self touting tuner, TDi should know this, I'd love to see what an afc can do with ignition timing on lh 2.4.... or maybe that should read what it can't do with ignition timing.

One other thing one has to mention here, apex'i isnt going to release a "free firmware upgrade" to allow it to hold more maps or bigger maps or what have you, whereas with megasquirt, if you really *must* have a bigger map you can sit down and adjust the code to suit your needs...

balls back in your court bud ;)

bondo: which mike are you refering to?

[Captain Bondo]

I referred to a mike? :)

[245gti]

This board tends to have a lot of people who like to write off mods before exploring them fully though... :roll:

Heh...I remember a certain Kenny who said, and I quote.... "I wouldn't trust my engine to a $100 fuel injection controller". This is when Matt and I were first talking about Megasquirt....

A bit of water has flown under the bridge since then eh?

[Captain Bondo]

Actually, it's more that megasquirt has evolved a lot since then actually.

I changed sides about the time the spark end of it was sorted out. My major thing against it was that being able to set the mixture up without being able to set up the spark is like trying to tune the carb on a b21a with no point gap. These engines benefit bigtime from and optimized ignition curve so if the MSnS had never come up I actually would've stuck to my guns (ie if you just need more fuel mod the stock system- otherwise get something with spark control)

[linuxman51]

Actually, it's more that megasquirt has evolved a lot since then actually.

I changed sides about the time the spark end of it was sorted out. My major thing against it was that being able to set the mixture up without being able to set up the spark is like trying to tune the carb on a b21a with no point gap. These engines benefit bigtime from and optimized ignition curve so if the MSnS had never come up I actually would've stuck to my guns (ie if you just need more fuel mod the stock system- otherwise get something with spark control)


pretty much. the fuel part of it is cool, but you can set your a/f rock solid in two days, the timing map is where allllll the power is made (and lost). +- 2 degrees makes a biiiiiiig difference. check out my post about that in off topic ;)

[Captain Bondo]

Yeah man you're preaching to the choir now. :)
The fact that you can use edis with it an can the dizzy is the icing on the cake. I decided to run MS about 2 seconds after I heard about MSnEDIS

[linuxman51]

Yeah man you're preaching to the choir now. :)
The fact that you can use edis with it an can the dizzy is the icing on the cake. I decided to run MS about 2 seconds after I heard about MSnEDIS
Oh I know. I'm still waiting (i'm starting to feel a road trip coming on in the next couple of days...) on the relay components, i went ahead and ordered cases for you guys for the relay boards to kinda atone for this huge delay :oops:

[Captain Bondo]

Hey no worries on mine man. Works out fine since the engine buld is of course taking way longer than expected anyways. :)
Sorry for ot.

On topic:

Funny, if someone posted now saying "I wouldn't trust my engine to a $100 ems" I'd say, "well what do you think a $2000 ems is? Probably a $300 ems with $1700 worth of markup because it has a shiny 'ABC Racing' sticker on it." :D

[linuxman51]

yea, its really just a function of the firmware running on the hardware, the ms isn't limited inheirantly by its components, any limitations its got are in the code that runs on the processor, and this is one of its greatest assets: anyone is free to use/modifly/hackup the firmware to suit their needs (for instance, the guy that wrote the load-signal interface for the v6 volvo, interesting stuff). I'd like to add my own changes, but finding the time to learn and do is a bit difficult (damn school), but its hot on the list (mainly just a bigger map so i can simultaneously piss on several different groups of people, it would be nice on the 740, but the defacto 8x8 works BEAUTIFULLY on my 760, great power, faster spool, better top end.. good stuff. anywho..).

[Matt Dupuis]

Great post, Ken - shows lots of initiative and diligence in your research.

As you pointed out, clustering the map around the torque peak and trouble spots is all that's really needed. I too would prefer a few more RPM increments - a 12x12 map would be nice. Great quote, BTW - "big dick factor"! Beautiful!

This thing's been dead reliable for me for a year, unless I do something stupid. You can take your $2000 EMS, and if you tune it on the road I bet my car that it'll run worse than my simple $100 MS.

The MS came about because one of the creators (Bruce) wanted to build a simpler version of EFI-332 (I believe that was Al's baby), which was an all-singing, all-dancing EMS that only one or two people actually got running. MS became so successful because people could replace carbs or K-jet with something more sophisticated, and leave their existing ignition systems intact. It wasn't too long after that when people with integrated ignition systems felt the need for "downgrading" to MS, and wrote the necessary code for ignition.

I was on the MS bandwagon from the moment I laid eyes on it. Dale and I were on the very first group buy, and I was on the mailing list before there WAS a MS mailing list. In fact, I actually got an email from Bruce telling me that the GB was in effect, and did I still want in? The list, and now the forum, has been VERY active, VERY positive, and VERY helpful. (We could actually take some lessons from that list: Kenny suggested that you'd get flamed if you suggested we need more than an 8x8 map, but in reality it's more of a wrist slap than a flame war. Aside from that, I haven't seen a single angry conflict in 2 years.)

Now that I've become a little more comfortable with the circuitry and programming of MS, I find myself more comfortable with making changes and trying new things. I've tricked out my first (and only) MS board to include MS&E, the flyback circuit, and a bunch of code hacks for personal reasons. My only frustration with the system is in the lack of consistency with which the car runs, mainly due to overzealous air temperature correction and (probably) incompatable parts. For more details, see http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?p=175037#post175037

Building and maintaining Megasquirt has been nothing but a positive experience. Dale & I went to a get-together of a few other Calgary MS'ers at the local cruise-in drive-in restaraunt, and we drew quite a crowd with only two cars on the road! If all of us had our cars there (and I'd be the only one with EDIS, as I'm also the only one winter-driving mine), it woulda stolen the show. We got TONS of interest from people who'd heard of the system and were surprised that people from Calgary actually had built it already.

(Wow - I didn't mean to make this a MS-oriented post... whoops!)

Anyway, I'm a firm believer that the next MS will blow all other aftermarket systems away, and I hope to be one of the first people on that GB as well. FYI, The most recent delay was because a brand new chip came available, and Bruce has a hard-on to use it. That's something you're NOT going to get by buying an aftermarket system: there would have been a deadline and arrangements would have been made to use the older chip already, and that technology would have passes us buy. Bruce can make that change, and we're going to thank him that he did!

[domox]

I agree with everything so far regarding MS. I was also in on the first group buy (I still have the list from the original adopters from TurboBricks list, RIP). Its been running in my 240 for over a year with only one problem - I turned up the PWM before the flyback mod had become standard issue and roasted the drivers/resistors. After installing the TIP42 to the case I've had zero problems related to this. Once I got Eric Falgren's turbo update for the firmware I got over the boost a/f computation issue. At no time has the 8 x 8 cell matrix been an issue. What has MS done for me? Allowed me to get rid of the decrepid K-Jet, increase the boost, get better mileage, idles LOTS better, smoother acceleration(sp?), etc. You get the picture. And all this on a TIRED engine that likes to pump oil past its seals!

I paid $100 for the kit (v1.1) and $35 for the stimulator and downloaded everything I needed. I'd say that between the wiring, manifold, and injectors, I've got another $150. Can any of the other high-priced EMS manufacturers come close to that bang/buck ratio?

My only burning question has to be is there some way that we can set up some depository of fuel and ignition maps? I say this because when I was putting mine together I was looking for a base map other than the stock V8 that the MS comes with and ended up like everyone else, i.e., the old fashioned way. It would be nice say, when I get my rebuild B230FT for my 240 that I can grab an ignition map to start off with (since I want to go EDIS). Just a thought.

[Matt Dupuis]

www.msefi.com (http://www.msefi.com/)

We should be dumping our maps in there once we're done. There are lots of Volvos with MS that aren't on this board (presumably), and it would be nice to help them out too.

In any event, any little change you make to your car, be it injectors, fuel pressure, altitude, etc., is gonna screw up the map. Hardly any point to downloading one and using it, 'cause you'll be modifying it eventually and you won't have the practice tuning it (which you DO need - it's not that easy)

*edit* - if you go to the "success stories" on msefi.com and want to modify your story, you have to subscribe to that forum to be able to modify it. I think only the admin and the person in question has the ability to modify one's success story. You could also post a link to your MSQ and MSS files right there, and you could even put 'em in your sig if you want to. Mine are constantly changing and typically reside on my POS laptop, so hosting them isn't going to happen that often.

[grizlyadams]

I suggest the 8*8 map (being only 64 cells of tuneable area) is a step in the wrong direction when compared to the stock LH 16*16 (=256 points which is 192 more points then MS).

Yes it does make a difference. Try using large injectors and 10psi? Guess what? Each one of those 64 cells now has a larger jump to the next cell on the map. Interpolation? Sure, both the stock and MS ecus will do it, nothing magical there, just standard linear inlerpolation. You now have a very coarse map.

Next, tune for 20 psi. Now you have to stretch out those 64 cells even further, making each cell an even larger jump. Perhaps those 64 cells leave something to be desired; something to think about.

removed because its all a bit too big! sorry :oops:
pm me if you want a copy of the vadis pinouts.

Griz

[MattP]

Don't be sorry for a high quality post like that. Keep stuff like that coming.

Matt

[domox]

Key words here are: "...to start off with..."

I have no problem doing the work of tuning, etc, but if someone has already taken the first step and might possibly have an example of a working MSQ or MSS I'm going to want to look at it; if only to see what may or may not work and save me some time. I wouldn't care if it were an old version as long as it gave me a starting point.

Even in the beginning of the Yahoo list there were other 240 owners who had installed MS but few were forthcoming with any particulars. One was Jesse (jao), who gave me a copy of his MSQ to look at and Kent Sjogren, the guy in Sweden who made his own MS v1.01. I guess my point was that since there's a sticky thread for the end-all-be-all-of-MS-installations that perhaps somewhere in there should be a couple of maps for people interested in the topic to see/download. (Yes, I am familiar with the MS board and will be updating my profile there as time allows.)

[Boosted2003]

Yeah, MSnS is nice but I dont really want to use it on 7500 dollar motor. :-\

[coldfusion21]

i dont know, i wouldnt have a problem using it on any motor as long as you have the prop\er tools to watch what your doing. altho one could argue that since you dropped that on a motor, you obviously have the money to go with something more high end. but as some guys have pointed out, just becasue it costs more doesnt mean its better.

[linuxman51]

Key words here are: "...to start off with..."

I have no problem doing the work of tuning, etc, but if someone has already taken the first step and might possibly have an example of a working MSQ or MSS I'm going to want to look at it; if only to see what may or may not work and save me some time. I wouldn't care if it were an old version as long as it gave me a starting point.

Even in the beginning of the Yahoo list there were other 240 owners who had installed MS but few were forthcoming with any particulars. One was Jesse (jao), who gave me a copy of his MSQ to look at and Kent Sjogren, the guy in Sweden who made his own MS v1.01. I guess my point was that since there's a sticky thread for the end-all-be-all-of-MS-installations that perhaps somewhere in there should be a couple of maps for people interested in the topic to see/download. (Yes, I am familiar with the MS board and will be updating my profile there as time allows.)

what're you getting at bud?

[grizlyadams]

If you are doing a +T on an NA engine, or getting rid of k-jet, fine do a MS+S on it, it will work great (NA is about all the maps good for anyway ;-) ). If however you have LH on the otherhand, a small £160 box and 30 mins of wiring and playing will have you running 600cc injectors in no time, and because the ecu is still playing with idle etc, you will still get good mpg's and a perfect idle. The volvo engine aint something new, or different or special, its just a 2.3L 4 pot turbo 8v iron lump! Why do you people always rule out everything that the japs do to their engines! Volvo engine aint special you know!
:nomex:

Griz (awating massive flaming)

[linuxman51]

If you are doing a +T on an NA engine, or getting rid of k-jet, fine do a MS+S on it, it will work great (NA is about all the maps good for anyway ;-) ). If however you have LH on the otherhand, a small £160 box and 30 mins of wiring and playing will have you running 600cc injectors in no time, and because the ecu is still playing with idle etc, you will still get good mpg's and a perfect idle. The volvo engine aint something new, or different or special, its just a 2.3L 4 pot turbo 8v iron lump! Why do you people always rule out everything that the japs do to their engines! Volvo engine aint special you know!
:nomex:

Griz (awating massive flaming)

there are so many grossly incorrect statements in this post that its not even worth my time to point em out...

[grizlyadams]

there are so many grossly incorrect statements in this post that its not even worth my time to point em out...Feel free to make me look like an idiot (ok, probly done that already!), or is it because you dont have answers, not like i flamed MS too much, its ok for doing a cheap swap to a turbo engine etc, but there are better solutions out there. Unichip for example, £500 installed and tuned (by a pro) on a dyno with a wideband.

Whats the point in a forum if we dont discuss these things? what do you have against the AFC2/unichip products? what is your list of flaws/issues? is it just down to you wanting to save a few quid? and the fact that you are selling a product?

Griz (wanting to know the truth about MS+S :-P )

[linuxman51]

Feel free to make me look like an idiot (ok, probly done that already!), or is it because you dont have answers, not like i flamed MS too much, its ok for doing a cheap swap to a turbo engine etc, but there are better solutions out there. Unichip for example, £500 installed and tuned (by a pro) on a dyno with a wideband.

Whats the point in a forum if we dont discuss these things? what do you have against the AFC2/unichip products? what is your list of flaws/issues? is it just down to you wanting to save a few quid? and the fact that you are selling a product?

Griz (wanting to know the truth about MS+S :-P )

griz bud, its not that anyone wants to make you look like an idiot (you're quite well at doing that yourself as are most of the rest of us from time to time). there's been enough discussed about ms n s for "the truth to be out there", and well it just boils down to this:

we all know you don't know what the hell you're talking about :-p

its not because i'm selling em, I've moved a whole... 6 or 7 since offering that option back in feb. :shrug: if i was trying to make money off it i'd be charging a bit more than i do now.

[Pennybridge Pioneer]

the fuel isn't the hard part of tuning...its the spark. wow, 600cc injectors, nifty. just bolt on a bigger turbo (if you even need it) and you have enough air to compensate for more fuel, but your car will still run like crap and you won't be making all that much more power. Its amazing how well MSnS worked on my brother's wagon (lh2.2 previously) he's making more boost and more power than ever before, and the turbo spools up faster, all through spark tuning. the afc products are bandaid fixes designed for japanese car ecus that are designed with adjustability and upgradeability in mind. Look at all honda ecus, they're so easy to upgrade because they have flashable memory and a huge aftermarket support making products like Hondata (standalone ems, btw) all the people making "big power" with a bandaid like an AFC have cars/motors already designed for big power output and aren't operating out of their designed capabilities yet. with our cars we're talking about doubling power output out of a motor desinged in the 70's and spark/fuel control designed in the 80's. get with the program, MSnS allows YOU, the operator, tune your own damn car. not only that, but its infinitely (almost) adjustable, you don't like something, change it, you change your compressor wheel, change some bins. go ahead and get your car "tuned" by a "pro" on a "dyno" with a "wideband"....and have fun both NOT knowing a god damn thing thats going on inside your motor AND always bringing it back to your 'PRO TUNER DSM ITR LOL JDM" for more "tuning"

MS not for you, that's cool, but if you were planning on 'takin your car to the shop' for 'tuning' you should have considered a different car with more readily available aftermarket and experts.

remember all those fancy ems systems are just megasquirt with huge R&D funding and half of what you pay for is in advertising, packaging, and dealer markups....good luck people....flame on.

[the poi]

well, without the melodrama of the above poster... ya, MSnS kicks ass. I had MSnS wiried in about a day, cranked the car in the morning, and it was running smooth as hell by that evening. From there on out, I've just been tuning the hell out the spark: its a hell of a lot faster than LH ever was, and ever could be. its not just fuel, its ignition, its all in the ignition. Turbo spools faster, car pulls harder off the line, pulls all the way through the top 4k rpm (instead of giving up liek LH does), and its revs BEAUITIFULLY. An MS box doesn't have a funciton that will nuke your motor at some randomly chosen time: install it right,tune it right, and it'll take care of you. It really is the best thing I've ever done on my car, and strangely, it was the fastest up-and-running upgrade ive ever done. You give up a lot of power with bandaids and "tuning" that just make you run rich all the time... MSnS will get you up and running, and wideband will greatly help out (it'll be pretty much necessary if there aren't any maps that are close to what you have), and of course, dyno time will help out as well. And then, you can tune it however the hell you want, whenever you want. Why spend 300$ on a fuel bandaid when you can spend 100$ on full engine management?

[Pennybridge Pioneer]

ping ping ping boom

[Matt Dupuis]

Okay, boys... settle down. This isn't an MS vs. everything else post, or at least it shouldn't be. Some people (myself included at first) are worried that because there isn't a nametag (and therefore the possibility of liability, even though no EMS manufacturer would give you a new engine 'cause you blew yours up using their system) it's an unreliable POS. I can't blame them for that - it's not their fault. Culture tells us that more expensive is better, and better is more expensive. Why on earth would you run a $2000 motor on a $100 EMS? The same reason you'd run it on a $4000 system - you want the control and power. The added features of the $4000 system can largely be added to MS, but that's not the point - some people don't or won't trust it.

Personally, I've seen the unichip in action, and I wouldn't use one in my car. But that's just me. I'm a DIY kinda guy.

For the record, when I build the engine for my new car (WAY more than $2000, by the way), I will FOR SURE be using a Megasquirt or one of the derivatives, and I'll drive it every day!

[linuxman51]

yea there's no need for a flame fest, my thoughts on this are: if you wanna go spend more for your engine management, go for it. If that helps you sleep at night, more power to ya.

if you're going to discount it based on a short blurb of "features", i'd say you're pretty close minded, and we all know what they say about a fool and his money.
I've these types of arguements before. I simply rest my arguments on the results and performance of my car, which would currently reside in the top 10 out of all the turbobrickers (6th, behind simpson, doug, the mvp boys and good ol john lane), with nothing special under the hood aside from the management, in fact, asside from the injectors, its all factory volvo **** from the nose to the tail (and 50 lbs in missing interior peices, that must have been the competitive edge). oh and a press bent 2.5 exhaust from the downpipe back.

We can also take into consideration roto re me's car, with lh at the time, fresh off the dyno with a way more efficient turbo and higher boost, and the requisite "fuel mods" came close. In reality, he should be pimping my times every which way.... Strange too, that after megasquirting his car and tuning it out that it makes almost as much power at significantly less boost. Potential food for thought. The argument isnt "Megasquirt rules all you fools", its not "megasquirt is the best EMS ever" (the best ems ever comes from bosch. and you people crying about megasquirt not having the driveability of other systems without ever having tried it, or those looking for "$4000 solutions for my expensive engine" should go with the best.. factory management. anything less would surely be a compromise right?) The argument is that megasquirt is better than the factory stuff. And it is.. its not so much better than the LH box (which is pretty good considering what was available at the time), its better than the EZK box (which sucks a huge phallic object).

Fuel is easy, ignition timing is where all your power is made, and thats where megasquirt kills 2.2 and 2.4 and the various AFC's. Peak power is an object of ignition timing, you can get all the fuel you need from a holly double pumper.

[grizlyadams]

See, this is all im after, some kind of sensible, well thought out reason why MS+S is a good idea.....still kinda got issues with trusting my engine (no mater the cost of it) on something soldered together by me! i did electronics at school, i remember the pain!

Now seriously, is anyone ever going to have a go at expanding the map size at all? come on there has to be someone here thats got the brains to do it (dont look at me, i hate programming), or are you just all going to give up?

while im here, i take it nothing more new about UMS? it still small map size? is it just a better intigrated version of MS+S? something about WB02 drivers etc was talked about, or am i dreaming again?

Griz (yea i know, my mood and my aligance changes all the time, sorry about that, ive had a bad week)

[Forg]

A bit off-topic the way this thread has gone, but in the spirit of the original post, here are some specs for the MoTeC M400 & M600 ECU's (*edit* oops, they're apparently already out).
Looking at the fact that the line-up ise M400, M600, M800, I'd guess the M800 probably has the same specs as these two new ECU's (but it'll do 8cyls &/or more). Oh, and the ECU used to be a Motorola 68000-series ten-or-so years ao, dunno what they're using these days.


ENGINE MANAGEMENT SYSTEM M400

GENERAL
Microprocessor - 3.3V 32 Bit with next generation time co-processor and 32MHz internal operation
Quality Standard - ISO 9002
Manufacturing Standard - IPC-S-815-A Class 3 High Reliability
Warranty Parts and Labour - 2 year
Burn in –10 to 70 Deg C, 10 cycles in 32 hours
ECU Control Software stored in updateable Flash memory
High RFI Immunity
Low heat generation when using low ohm injectors
Battery transient protection
Environmentally sealed electronics
Waterproof connector with gold plated contacts
Case Size (mm) - 147 x 105 x 40
Weight (kg) - 0.500
PC Communications - CAN
Logger and Display Communications - CAN and RS232
Cylinders - 1, 2, 3, 4 Sequential
Engines 2 stroke, 4 stroke, Rotary (3 Rotor)
Maximum RPM - > 20,000

OPERATING CONDITIONS
Internal Temperature Range (Deg C) -10 ~ 85 Deg
Ambient Temperature (Deg C) (Depending on load and ventilation) -10 ~ 70 Deg
Operating Voltage 6 ~ 22V DC
Operating Current (ECU only) 0.5 A max.
Reverse Battery Protection - External Fuse

COMPUTER SOFTWARE
Tuning, setup, diagnostic and utility software (Windows)
Computer Requirements - IBM PC with printer port, Win 95 to XP
Built-in help system
Data Logging Analysis - Opt. 1
User definable screen layouts

INJECTION OUTPUTS
Switchmode, high efficiency, low heat generation
Type - Peak and hold
Number - 4
Injector Resistance - > 0.1 Ohm
User Programmable Current - 0.5 ~ 6 Amp peak
User Definable Battery Compensation

FUEL CALIBRATION
Accuracy - 0.000002 sec
RPM and Load Sites are user programmable
Main Table (3D) - RPM sites x Load sites - 40 x 21
End of Injection Primary and Secondary (3D) - RPM sites x Load sites - 20 x 11
Individual Cylinder Trim
Individual Cylinder Tables (3D) – RPM sites x Load sites - 20 x 11
Secondary Injector Balance Table (3D) - RPM sites x Load sites - 20 x 11
Auxiliary Compensations (any channel) - 2
Adjustable MAP, Engine and Air Temperature, Fuel Pressure, Fuel Temperature and Gear Compensations
Accel./Deccel. Clamp, Decay and Sensitivity
Cold Start (5 parameters)
End of injection compensation (any channel) - 2
Adjustable injector dead-time compensation

IGNITION OUTPUTS
Number - 4
Ignition Interface allows connection to most OEM Ignition systems

IGNITION CALIBRATION
Accuracy - 0.1 degree
RPM and Load Sites are user programmable
Main Table (3D) - RPM sites x Load sites - 40 x 21
Individual Cylinder Trim
Individual Cylinder Tables (3D) – RPM sites x Load sites - 20 x 11
Adjustable MAP, Engine and Air Temperature, Gear Compensations
Auxiliary Compensations (any channel) - 2
Gear Compensation
Accel. Adv. Clamp, Decay and Sensitivity
Dwell Time – RPM x Battery Voltage - 10 x 11
Odd Fire engine capability (any angle)
Rotary Ignition Split

BOOST CONTROL
Main Table (3D) - RPM Sites x User Defined Sites - 20 x11
Engine, Air and Exhaust Temperature Compensation
Auxiliary Compensation (any channel) - 1

STANDARD FEATURES
Narrow Band Lambda Control
Wideband Lambda Control using external meter
Switched Cam Control
Driver Warning Alarm and Shift Light Control
Tacho Output
Gear Detection
Dual RPM Limit
Ground Speed Limiting
Nitrous Oxide Enrich / Retard
Air Conditioner Fan and Clutch Control
Over Run Fuel Cut
Programmable Sensor Calibrations
RPM Limit, Hard or Soft cut, fuel and/or ignition
Turbo Wastegate Control
Intercooler Spray Bars
Idle Speed Control (Pulse Width Modulated, Stepper, Drive by Wire)
RPM / Load Dependent Valves
Fuel Used Output
Fuel Pressure Control
Fuel Pump Relay Control
Alternator Control
Thermatic Fan Control
Slip Warning Light
User Definable 3D Output Tables with selectable axis parameters

OPTIONAL FEATURES (Necessary for some applications)
Data Logging - Opt. 1
Onboard Wideband Lambda Sensor Controller for NTK UEGO & Bosch LSU sensors - Opt. 2 (Single)
Traction Control and Launch Control (2, 3 or 4 wheel) - Opt. 3
Gear Change Ignition Cut (Flat shifts) - Opt. 3
High/Low Injection (Staged Injection) - Opt. 3
Overrun Boost Enhancement (Anti-lag) - Opt. 3*
Continuously Variable Cam Control - Opt. 4
Drive by Wire Throttle - Opt. 5

AUXILIARY OUTPUTS
Number of Auxiliary Outputs - 8
All outputs are Pulse Width Modulated or Switched capable
4 Wire Stepper Motor capable
Number of Outputs with High and Low Side drive - 6
Auxiliary Outputs can be used for standard and optional functions as required

TRIGGER SENSORS
Directly Compatible with most OEM trigger systems including:
Hall, Magnetic and Optical types, Multi-tooth (e.g. Mazda and Toyota), 1 or 2 Missing Teeth (e.g. Porsche)
Many other special types incl. Ford narrow tooth, Nissan optical, Harley Davidson
Digital Signal Processing with Advanced Diagnostics

SENSOR INPUTS
Throttle Position, Manifold Pressure, Engine and Air Temperature
Auxiliary Sensor Inputs - 10
Digital/Speed Inputs - 4

AIR FUEL RATIO INPUTS
Narrow Band
Wideband using external meter
Single or dual onboard Wideband, fully temperature compensated using high speed, professional type NTK UEGO or Bosch LSU sensors - Opt. 2
Range – Lambda - 0.70 to 32.0
Resolution – Lambda - 0.001
Lambda inputs also usable as 0-5V analogue input - 1

DATA LOGGING
Logging of all ECU parameters - Opt. 1
Memory, Non-Volatile Flash - 512k
Individual Parameter and Rate Selection
Logging Rate – samples per second - 1 to 200
Logging Time – 28 Parameters + Diagnostics at 5/sec - 38 minutes
Interpreter Software – Graphical Analysis
Maximum parameters logged - 64
Maximum logging throughput - 10 kbytes/sec

DIAGNOSTICS
Injectors Open Circuit, Short Circuit, Peak Current not reached
Sensors Open and Short Circuit
Ref/Sync noise warning and error diagnostics (noise, runt pulses and amplitude)
Operating Errors: RPM Limit Exceeding, Injector Overduty, Over Boost, Low Battery, REF Error etc.

OPTIONS
Opt.1: Logging
Opt.2: Wideband Lambda - Single
Opt.3: Advanced Functions
Opt.4: Continuously Variable Cam Control
Opt.5: Drive by Wire
*Available as part of Advanced Functions or as a separate option.



ENGINE MANAGEMENT SYSTEM M600

GENERAL
Microprocessor - 3.3V 32 Bit with next generation time co-processor and 32MHz internal operation
Quality Standard - ISO 9002
Manufacturing Standard - IPC-S-815-A Class 3 High Reliability
Warranty Parts and Labour - 2 year
Burn in –10 to 70 Deg C, 10 cycles in 32 hours
ECU Control Software stored in updateable Flash memory
High RFI Immunity
Low heat generation when using low ohm injectors
Battery transient protection
Environmentally sealed electronics
Waterproof connector with gold plated contacts
Case Size (mm) - 147 x 105 x 40
Weight (kg) - 0.500
PC Communications - CAN
Logger and Display Communications - CAN and RS232
Cylinders - 1, 2, 3, 4, 5,6 Sequential
Engines 2 stroke, 4 stroke, Rotary (3 Rotor)
Maximum RPM - > 20,000

OPERATING CONDITIONS
Internal Temperature Range (Deg C) -10 ~ 85 Deg
Ambient Temperature (Deg C) (Depending on load and ventilation) -10 ~ 70 Deg
Operating Voltage 6 ~ 22V DC
Operating Current (ECU only) 0.5 A max.
Reverse Battery Protection - External Fuse

COMPUTER SOFTWARE
Tuning, setup, diagnostic and utility software (Windows)
Computer Requirements - IBM PC with printer port, Win 95 to XP
Built-in help system
Data Logging Analysis - Opt. 1
User definable screen layouts

INJECTION OUTPUTS
Switchmode, high efficiency, low heat generation
Type - Peak and hold
Number - 6
Injector Resistance - > 0.1 Ohm
User Programmable Current - 0.5 ~ 6 Amp peak
User Definable Battery Compensation

FUEL CALIBRATION
Accuracy - 0.000002 sec
RPM and Load Sites are user programmable
Main Table (3D) - RPM sites x Load sites - 40 x 21
End of Injection Primary and Secondary (3D) - RPM sites x Load sites - 20 x 11
Individual Cylinder Trim
Individual Cylinder Tables (3D) – RPM sites x Load sites - 20 x 11
Secondary Injector Balance Table (3D) - RPM sites x Load sites - 20 x 11
Auxiliary Compensations (any channel) - 2
Adjustable MAP, Engine and Air Temperature, Fuel Pressure, Fuel Temperature and Gear Compensations
Accel./Deccel. Clamp, Decay and Sensitivity
Cold Start (5 parameters)
End of injection compensation (any channel) - 2
Adjustable injector dead-time compensation

IGNITION OUTPUTS
Number - 6
Ignition Interface allows connection to most OEM Ignition systems

IGNITION CALIBRATION
Accuracy - 0.1 degree
RPM and Load Sites are user programmable
Main Table (3D) - RPM sites x Load sites - 40 x 21
Individual Cylinder Trim
Individual Cylinder Tables (3D) – RPM sites x Load sites - 20 x 11
Adjustable MAP, Engine and Air Temperature, Gear Compensations
Auxiliary Compensations (any channel) - 2
Gear Compensation
Accel. Adv. Clamp, Decay and Sensitivity
Dwell Time – RPM x Battery Voltage - 10 x 11
Odd Fire engine capability (any angle)
Rotary Ignition Split

BOOST CONTROL
Main Table (3D) - RPM Sites x User Defined Sites - 20 x11
Engine, Air and Exhaust Temperature Compensation
Auxiliary Compensation (any channel) - 1

STANDARD FEATURES
Narrow Band Lambda Control
Wideband Lambda Control using external meter
Switched Cam Control
Driver Warning Alarm and Shift Light Control
Tacho Output
Gear Detection
Dual RPM Limit
Ground Speed Limiting
Nitrous Oxide Enrich / Retard
Air Conditioner Fan and Clutch Control
Over Run Fuel Cut
Programmable Sensor Calibrations
RPM Limit, Hard or Soft cut, fuel and/or ignition
Turbo Wastegate Control
Intercooler Spray Bars
Idle Speed Control (Pulse Width Modulated, Stepper, Drive by Wire)
RPM / Load Dependent Valves
Fuel Used Output
Fuel Pressure Control
Fuel Pump Relay Control
Alternator Control
Thermatic Fan Control
Slip Warning Light
User Definable 3D Output Tables with selectable axis parameters

OPTIONAL FEATURES (Necessary for some applications)
Data Logging - Opt. 1
Onboard Wideband Lambda Sensor Controller for NTK UEGO & Bosch LSU sensors - Opt. 2
Traction Control and Launch Control (2, 3 or 4 wheel) - Opt. 3
Gear Change Ignition Cut (Flat shifts) - Opt. 3
High/Low Injection (Staged Injection) - Opt. 3
Overrun Boost Enhancement (Anti-lag) - Opt. 3*
Continuously Variable Cam Control - Opt. 4
Drive by Wire Throttle - Opt. 5

AUXILIARY OUTPUTS
Number of Auxiliary Outputs - 8
All outputs are Pulse Width Modulated or Switched capable
4 Wire Stepper Motor capable
Number of Outputs with High and Low Side drive - 6
Auxiliary Outputs can be used for standard and optional functions as required

TRIGGER SENSORS
Directly Compatible with most OEM trigger systems including:
Hall, Magnetic and Optical types, Multi-tooth (e.g. Mazda and Toyota), 1 or 2 Missing Teeth (e.g. Porsche)
Many other special types incl. Ford narrow tooth, Nissan optical, Harley Davidson
Digital Signal Processing with Advanced Diagnostics

SENSOR INPUTS
Throttle Position, Manifold Pressure, Engine and Air Temperature
Auxiliary Sensor Inputs - 10
Digital/Speed Inputs - 4

AIR FUEL RATIO INPUTS
Narrow Band
Wideband using external meter
Single or dual onboard Wideband, fully temperature compensated using high speed, professional type NTK UEGO or Bosch LSU sensors - Opt. 2
Range – Lambda - 0.70 to 32.0
Resolution – Lambda - 0.001
Lambda inputs also usable as 0-5V analogue input - 2

DATA LOGGING
Logging of all ECU parameters - Opt. 1
Memory, Non-Volatile Flash - 512k
Individual Parameter and Rate Selection
Logging Rate – samples per second - 1 to 200
Logging Time – 28 Parameters + Diagnostics at 5/sec - 38 minutes
Interpreter Software – Graphical Analysis
Maximum parameters logged - 64
Maximum logging throughput - 10 kbytes/sec

DIAGNOSTICS
Injectors Open Circuit, Short Circuit, Peak Current not reached
Sensors Open and Short Circuit
Ref/Sync noise warning and error diagnostics (noise, runt pulses and amplitude)
Operating Errors: RPM Limit Exceeding, Injector Overduty, Over Boost, Low Battery, REF Error etc.

OPTIONS
Opt.1: Logging
Opt.2: Wideband Lambda - Single or Dual
Opt.3: Advanced Functions
Opt.4: Continuously Variable Cam Control
Opt.5: Drive by Wire
*Available as part of Advanced Functions or as a separate option.

[Matt Dupuis]

Holy crap, Forg!!! I vote that the longest post, EVER!

UMS gets a 12x12 fuel and 12x12 ignition map. See more specs here http://www.megasquirt.info/UMS.htm Absolutely mouth watering...

[Forg]

Sorry about the length ... I hope it's of interest to at least someone. :)

Have to say that programmable ECU's are the Bee's Knees overall though. Dunno how people can rely on that wierd alchemy/magic of carburetters ... Project Volvo wouldn't idle well when cold, so I got an idle-control valve & set it up with the MoTeC, and it was great being able to sit there & fiddle until she settled down to a happy smooth idle that won't scare passengers. SOO much easier than casting spells & chanting & whatever else is involved with a carby ...

[linuxman51]

That processor they use in the motec sounds suspicously like the one that was going to be used for UMS (altho I dont currently remember what its called). sweet stuff, great info :rockon: wish it weren't so expensive :)

[Captain Bondo]

"See, this is all im after, some kind of sensible, well thought out reason why MS+S is a good idea..."

Because it's cheap, flexible, and it does the job well?

"..still kinda got issues with trusting my engine (no mater the cost of it) on something soldered together by me! i did electronics at school, i remember the pain!"

Well, here's the thing- if you don't bridge solder joints together or do anything hideous- what is the issue? With electronics- it generally either works or it doesn't- no in between- if you've screwed it up it's easy enopugh to sort out before you wind to 8000rpm and 38psi-and then "oh ****- I wired it wrong", know what I mean? The main margin for error by far is in the map programming and the sensor setup- and you have to deal with that when it comes to anything.

"Now seriously, is anyone ever going to have a go at expanding the map size at all? come on there has to be someone here thats got the brains to do it (dont look at me, i hate programming), or are you just all going to give up?"

I wrote firmware on Motorola and Microchip microprocessors professionally in research and development for three years as a robotics technician (in manufactur's specific assembly language and C). I could probably do it but I never get anything done and I suspect it will work fine for me as is. IMO until people start dyno tuning their cars and acually arriving at points where the interpolation has proved insufficient I don't see how one could justify the work.

[Matt Dupuis]

And that's really the main argument by the proponents of the 8x8 map - they say that if you can't get it tuned properly with the 64 bins given to you, they'd start looking at making the map bigger. Nobody's actually shown up with a dyno pull where the AFRs are so bad it needed more. And, as has been mentioned, turbocharged, motorcycle-powered 300 MPH Bonneville streamliners have no trouble with the 8x8 map, and tractor-pulling Volvos seem to do okay as well. In my opinion, if you truly NEED more than 64, you've done something very wrong in building the motor - small cam and big ports, combined with long runners and no plenum, or something like that.

I think they finally went with 144 bins on the UMS just to shut everyone up.

[Forg]

And that's really the main argument by the proponents of the 8x8 map - they say that if you can't get it tuned properly with the 64 bins given to you, they'd start looking at making the map bigger. Nobody's actually shown up with a dyno pull where the AFRs are so bad it needed more. And, as has been mentioned, turbocharged, motorcycle-powered 300 MPH Bonneville streamliners have no trouble with the 8x8 map
While I'm not necessarily saying there's anything wrong with only an 8x8 map, the argument that it works on some sort of race-car isn't really a valid one. I could offer you the example of Microtech (that being a crappy cheap ECU) computers working really well on drag-racing rotaries, and yet not being tunable enough to result in a long-lived smooth fuel-efficient road car.

[linuxman51]

While I'm not necessarily saying there's anything wrong with only an 8x8 map, the argument that it works on some sort of race-car isn't really a valid one. I could offer you the example of Microtech (that being a crappy cheap ECU) computers working really well on drag-racing rotaries, and yet not being tunable enough to result in a long-lived smooth fuel-efficient road car.

if roto would chip in, i'm sure he'd have something to say about DD with megasquirt as well (near as i can tell he loves it, gets better mileage than lh )

[Matt Dupuis]

It's a VERY valid arguement, Forg! It's also a very valid arguement that nearly everyone who installed it on their car, truck, or motorcycle has been able to make it work for them without the need for more than 64 bins!

For the I-don't-know-how-many'th-time, I've driven mine every day since I installed it, from 40 C below to over 35 C, without trouble. So have dozens, if not hundreds, more. All you have to do is go to the MS EFI list and see for yourself.

But if you don't want to invest the $200 or so it takes to find out for yourself, that's just fine by me - no skin off my nose, as they say. Just quit trying to attack the system (and the users) because you don't believe in it!

[linuxman51]

It's a VERY valid arguement, Forg! It's also a very valid arguement that nearly everyone who installed it on their car, truck, or motorcycle has been able to make it work for them without the need for more than 64 bins!

For the I-don't-know-how-many'th-time, I've driven mine every day since I installed it, from 40 C below to over 35 C, without trouble. So have dozens, if not hundreds, more. All you have to do is go to the MS EFI list and see for yourself.

But if you don't want to invest the $200 or so it takes to find out for yourself, that's just fine by me - no skin off my nose, as they say. Just quit trying to attack the system (and the users) because you don't believe in it!

I know you've been DD-ing it, I meant in addition to you and everyone else. But thats really what it boils down to, until a person actually sits down with the system and uses it, they really don't know what the hell they're talking about (with regards to megasquirt).
This would be like if I were to run around saying Motec sucks because its 40x21


Not all ems's are the same, and megasquirt falls into that category as well.

Kinda funny tho, almost everyone that tries it doesn't go back to the stock stuff, even though our esteemed but oft silent member tdi244 seems to think its a step in the wrong direction (actally he's a speed density hater, a linuxman51 hater, and as a result of those two I suspect a megasquirt hater as well. funny aside, if you're ever discussing anything with him and you start making points he can't counter, he'll argue with you about the exact phrasing of your sentences... like for instance "We made 530 awhp with an afc, and then 610 when we switched to a full ems, the only thing that changed was the ems", this was during an afc/megasquirt discussion "So you're saying ems is better than an afc.. well, ms n s is an ems, so then its better than an afc"... it went sharply downhill from there).

With all the power of a full ems we've had one mishap, a spun rod bearing, that ended up being the result of not getting the crank micropolished iirc? A couple of blown headgaskets from doug "i can't control my huge turbozorz" kauer (who then blazed down a 13.6), Some of the best gas mileage on the board (Jordan, no wideband tuning either). In fact, I don't know of anyone whos car ran worse after the fact.. The Poi took to it like a crackhead to a rock,
I'm fairly interested to see what Philip Bradley has to say about it.

So yea, those who know, and those who don't, and those who don't need to stop making ignorant statements. The cost of trying it out is around $120 bucks and if you dont like it, you could easily sell it back on ebay for 150. Not too many mods you can do for that kind of green with that kind of "security". (and do yourself a favor, spend the little bit of time required to understand how tuning it works rather than throwing numbers at it for an afternoon and giving up)

[Pennybridge Pioneer]

throwing numbers at it for an afternoon and giving up)

that's what we did...what are you trying to say?

edit: heeb :-P

[the poi]

that's what we did...what are you trying to say?

edit: heeb :-P
ya, and it was fun! hehe! vrrooooom

[Matt Dupuis]

I know you've been DD-ing it, I meant in addition to you and everyone else.
I know - I wasn't pointing it at you.

With all the power of a full ems we've had one mishap, a spun rod bearing, that ended up being the result of not getting the crank micropolished iirc?
Two, actually - me and Dale both. I'm reluctant to blame the polishing of the crank, 'cause his at least was in decent shape to begin with - certainly better than some I've seen fresh out of a machine shop. That, and the one currently in my car was treated the same as Dale's, i.e., cleaned and scratch tested before installation, and it's holding up through about 20 times as much tuning as his has had.

I'm thinking it's an oil control issue - either the oil was really thin, hot, and old in both our engines when they blew (true), or because of the sustained high RPMs the oil wasn't draining back to the pan properly, or maybe it got too foamy from being whipped around like that. They both failed on the exact same bearing, in the exact same manner, but with vastly different engines - mine was rebuilt 4 years before blowing (long before I bought it) with a stock crank, and his was rebuilt 1 year before blowing, with the entire winter off.

[Renny_D]

Has anyone passed California Smog with a MSnS? If so how did they manage the check engine light check? Sorry for the post hijack - just read this whole thing and that was the only question it brought to mind.

Thanks
Renny

[ZVOLV]

Thats a good point. i would say just pull the bulb, but I am sure they test for it in the run position. If you are clever enough to solder together a board and install it in your car, you will probably be smart enough to rig up a dummy light.

[linuxman51]

Thats a good point. i would say just pull the bulb, but I am sure they test for it in the run position. If you are clever enough to solder together a board and install it in your car, you will probably be smart enough to rig up a dummy light.

temporary programmable output use #112 ;) rpm switch, when rpms are below a set number it'll be on, and then shut off (you'd hafta have it on a relay but between starting the car, etc the testers wouldn't know what was going on.

[the poi]

Thats a good point. i would say just pull the bulb, but I am sure they test for it in the run position. If you are clever enough to solder together a board and install it in your car, you will probably be smart enough to rig up a dummy light.
wire a two position relay to fuel-pump-relay turn on lead. Power the light with an ign+ lead. Ignition on, fuel pump off, CE light on. Ignition on, fuel pump on (car's running) CE light's off.
gg electronics! :-D

[linuxman51]

wire a two position relay to fuel-pump-relay turn on lead. Power the light with an ign+ lead. Ignition on, fuel pump off, CE light on. Ignition on, fuel pump on (car's running) CE light's off.
gg electronics! :-D

yea but then you can't turn it off with software ;)

[grizlyadams]

wire a two position relay to fuel-pump-relay turn on lead. Power the light with an ign+ lead. Ignition on, fuel pump off, CE light on. Ignition on, fuel pump on (car's running) CE light's off.
gg electronics! :-D

Live in uk.....CE light???!?!?! whats one of those :-P

Griz

[linuxman51]

Live in uk.....CE light???!?!?! whats one of those :-P

Griz


not real sure, I took the bulb out of mine a while ago..

[the poi]

yea but then you can't turn it off with software ;)
eh? Meh, doesn't really effect me in any cae, no CE light on the 89, ha!

[mikep]

SOO much easier than casting spells & chanting & whatever else is involved with a carby ...
I agree. I grew up fiddling with float levels and jets and air bleeds and spacers, and I really love EFI. I can't wait until my MS shows up.

Why not wire the Check Engine light in parallel with the alternator light? They won't know the difference.

[dirtbike]

to get past the check engine light just splice into your oil pressure light, as the check engine light must come on when ignition is switched on and go out when the engine is started.
Laters
Nick