Rsi/bando header/old rsi header

[str8krewzn]

Ok soo here are pixz of the old header, and small cracks
http://www.pbase.com/str8krewzn/image/115447054.jpg
http://www.pbase.com/str8krewzn/image/115447004.jpg
http://www.pbase.com/str8krewzn/image/115446975.jpg
http://www.pbase.com/str8krewzn/image/115446943.jpg
http://www.pbase.com/str8krewzn/image/115446930.jpg
Old VS New
http://www.pbase.com/str8krewzn/image/115446922.jpg
New Header
http://www.pbase.com/str8krewzn/image/115446916.jpg
http://www.pbase.com/str8krewzn/image/115446908.jpg
http://www.pbase.com/str8krewzn/image/115446905.jpg
We shall see how this one holds up, and how i will remake my DP
i think ima do like the old setup and run it into the DP for the Quiet
Effect even tho the turbo is LOUD,and will figure out how to make
a bracket,Turbo Flange a little warped hopfully the gasket will help it not leak, and the flange to the head seems to be thinner, and the studd part with no thread seems to be to much but i think extra washer on each studd should fix it,and hope the turbo and header clear the water pump and timing gear and cover but wont kno that until i get it all in

[TerribleOne]

Seems like the wastegate is right where the downpipe used to be..

[Karl Buchka]

Is that RTV?

[MrBill]

i thought the same thing ^^ :lol:

[maxman142001]

nice! what are you going to do about the melted piston?

[str8krewzn]

nice! what are you going to do about the melted piston?

http://www.pbase.com/str8krewzn/image/113971139.jpg
I threw 4 of these in

[maxman142001]

http://www.pbase.com/str8krewzn/image/113971139.jpg
I threw 4 of these in

:oogle::-D:-P:omg::nod::-D:-D:-D:-D:-D:-D:-D:-D

[Captain Bondo]

Seems like the wastegate is right where the downpipe used to be..


RSI is looking for volunteer header makers. Get on it, big guy.

[str8krewzn]

Seems like the wastegate is right where the downpipe used to be..

Nope i thought it would be, i havnt place it perfect but beleave it or not my 3.5inch DP clears the WG

[str8krewzn]

RSI is looking for volunteer header makers. Get on it, big guy.

Dont think many ppl here has your skill on sexy welds and peice of art;-)

[Tom Wiley]

Nope i thought it would be, i havnt place it perfect but beleave it or not my 3.5inch DP clears the WG

looks that way to me too

[blkaplan]

http://www.pbase.com/str8krewzn/image/113971139.jpg
I threw 4 of these in

look how thick the ring lands are! yay!

[str8krewzn]

look how thick the ring lands are! yay!

Dont want it to look like the pistons you showed me 2day at the shop

[blkaplan]

Dont want it to look like the pistons you showed me 2day at the shop

:lol: lets hope not or its back to the drawing board

[str8krewzn]

lol yea i kno

[DanielRogers]

Is that RTV?

RTV ftw!

[towerymt]

RSI is looking for volunteer header makers. Get on it, big guy.
And the 2009 Buchka award goes to...

[500dollar744ti]

RSI is looking for volunteer header makers. Get on it, big guy.

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

[TerribleOne]

RSI is looking for volunteer header makers. Get on it, big guy.

Reason number one Vince is making his own headers.. (see above)

I'm already all over it.

[EricF]

Reason number one Vince is making his own headers.. (see above)

I'm already all over it.

Good the bad and the ugly theme, commence!

[badvlvo]

Is that RTV?

That was the first thing I saw in this thread.

I wish I could find a 75 so I could run a haeder on my car. Damn CA laws....

[Stereophile33]

were not looking for volunteers ;) I would love to actually do these in house...but even finding someone local with skills is hard...

[Tom]

Are you running that turbo unsupported on that tube header?

[str8krewzn]

not ruunin nothin on the new set up

[Nils]

Are you running that turbo unsupported on that tube header?

thats exactly what i was thinking. not hard to guess were future cracks will show. but who cares, cracks can be welded, and that header does look awesome ;-)

[Captain Bondo]

Are you running that turbo unsupported on that tube header?

The plan is to brace it. At least it better still be.:lol:


As far as other folks building headers goes, I've said it before and I'll say it again:

If someone can build something more competitive than what I make, then more power to them. Products are either competive or they aren't.


I honestly don't care that much - I am just a dude in a garage with a welder - I don't do this to pay the bills. I have a real job that does that just fine, at least for the time being. And I get to sit in the AC and not get dirty or burn myself. :rofl:

So yeah Vince I'm sure you can fabricate circles around some schmo from Canada pissing around drinking beers in his garage. I would hope so - so let's see some pics.

If I sound smug, it's because I am.

[thelostartof]

The plan is to brace it. At least it better still be.:lol:


As far as other folks building headers goes, I've said it before and I'll say it again:

If someone can build something more competitive than what I make, then more power to them. Products are either competive or they aren't.


I honestly don't care that much - I am just a dude in a garage with a welder - I don't do this to pay the bills. I have a real job that does that just fine, at least for the time being. And I get to sit in the AC and not get dirty or burn myself. :rofl:

So yeah Vince I'm sure you can fabricate circles around some schmo from Canada pissing around drinking beers in his garage. I would hope so - so let's see some pics.

If I sound smug, it's because I am.

Wow you sound like me
:rockon:


I'd love to see someone build what you do for less, from what I have seen very nice, I just wish they were to my design haha

[str8krewzn]

The plan is to brace it. At least it better still be.:lol:


As far as other folks building headers goes, I've said it before and I'll say it again:

If someone can build something more competitive than what I make, then more power to them. Products are either competive or they aren't.


I honestly don't care that much - I am just a dude in a garage with a welder - I don't do this to pay the bills. I have a real job that does that just fine, at least for the time being. And I get to sit in the AC and not get dirty or burn myself. :rofl:

So yeah Vince I'm sure you can fabricate circles around some schmo from Canada pissing around drinking beers in his garage. I would hope so - so let's see some pics.

If I sound smug, it's because I am.

1st OFF you know my hell with headers, your damn rite ima put a brace on this work of art!

2nd I Dont want to make my thread into bashin, i kno ppl around here build stuff, Kenny is one of the Few that makes alot, and seems to do a pretty damn good job at it , and seems to kno what the hell he's talkin about BUT NOT SAYIN NOONE ELSE CAN MAKE HEADERS THO
BUTTTT like the Man said lots of ppl talk about the header and fabbin thing , and Kenny seems to do a good job doing it

[str8krewzn]

if i sound smug, it's because i am.


nahhhhhh

[Captain Bondo]

heh should have had a":rofl:" after that... I'm not THAT smug. :lol:


So any pics Vince?

[TerribleOne]

The plan is to brace it. At least it better still be.:lol:


As far as other folks building headers goes, I've said it before and I'll say it again:

If someone can build something more competitive than what I make, then more power to them. Products are either competive or they aren't.


I honestly don't care that much - I am just a dude in a garage with a welder - I don't do this to pay the bills. I have a real job that does that just fine, at least for the time being. And I get to sit in the AC and not get dirty or burn myself. :rofl:

So yeah Vince I'm sure you can fabricate circles around some schmo from Canada pissing around drinking beers in his garage. I would hope so - so let's see some pics.

If I sound smug, it's because I am.

If you know me, then you know I like to do stuff myself. Uh.. you know.. like YOU?!
If fabrication was my job, I'd probably be in verbal assault mode, but I have a day job as well. And I'm proud to say it pays the bills without having to depend on specialty customers like turbobricks members, who are usually poorly educated when it comes to priorities. When I'm done trying to create more jobs for my community members, cutting lawns and fixing cars for a living I'll entertain yall with some splattered welding pics and horror stories of forgetting to turn my welding helmet on.
And as far as being competitive, I've got my work cut out for me. Who doesn't like a good challenge? Isn't that what constantly pushes technology as we know it?
I'll get you some pics when I get more done than just making flanges ;-)

[sdturbo]

Are you running that turbo unsupported on that tube header?

That makes little difference. The issue is the material imho. All tube headers are going to crack on a long enough timeline, stainless steel headers are going to crack much faster. SS does not take to being heated very well. Even with good welding (Bondo does a good job) the collector is still going to get hot enough to cook the carbon out of the SS. If I was in the market for one, id request mild steel and likely have a longer lasting manifold. Props to captinbondo for building these, if you knew what the machine, materials , and consumables cost let alone how annoying building manifolds can be... I cannot imagine building them as cheap as he does.

[badvlvo]

jsus chrst i cant undercomprehendstand how sm ppl cn leave out wrds an ltters and still post on tb.

[str8krewzn]

That makes little difference. The issue is the material imho. All tube headers are going to crack on a long enough timeline, stainless steel headers are going to crack much faster. SS does not take to being heated very well. Even with good welding (Bondo does a good job) the collector is still going to get hot enough to cook the carbon out of the SS. If I was in the market for one, id request mild steel and likely have a longer lasting manifold. Props to captinbondo for building these, if you knew what the machine, materials , and consumables cost let alone how annoying building manifolds can be... I cannot imagine building them as cheap as he does.

Yea SS looks nice, BUT ALOT of ppl who build there own is out of MILD STEEL, and they last a LONG TIME. My header didnt last more then 5months with 1 track day and 1200miles
This new one from Kenny looks great (NOT THAT THE OLD ONE DIDNT ERIC, PPL WAS AMAZED AT THE WELDING)But im deff putting a brace on it and brace for the DP and goin to hope this Header last me a year

[Nils]

That makes little difference. The issue is the material imho. All tube headers are going to crack on a long enough timeline, stainless steel headers are going to crack much faster. SS does not take to being heated very well. Even with good welding (Bondo does a good job) the collector is still going to get hot enough to cook the carbon out of the SS. If I was in the market for one, id request mild steel and likely have a longer lasting manifold. Props to captinbondo for building these, if you knew what the machine, materials , and consumables cost let alone how annoying building manifolds can be... I cannot imagine building them as cheap as he does.

it does make a difference...there's an obvious reason why it cracked where ity cracked. if the turbo was supported it wouldnt crack in those places. when building a tubular turbo header you dont want the big weight of a turbo or the weight of an external wastegate on a long unsupported pipe acting like a lever. especially not with all the vibrations you get on an engine. thats why they also use supports on intake manifolds cause they would start to crack at the flange if they were unsupported.
i made the same "mistake" when turbocharging my old mk3 capri. tubular header kept cracking and was solved by a simple support between turbo flange and engine mount.
same problem happens a lot on cheap ass xs-autochrome tubular headers ricers often use...the people that weld in a support suddenly stopped having the "my turbo fell off" problem.

material does have a strong effect on cracking, use the wrong stainless steel and it'll crack like an egg. but tubular headers dont crack in general. the 36 year old tubular header on my bmw 02ti still doesnt show any cracks ;-)

[sdturbo]

Your 2002 does not have a turbo bolted to the header, it does not get anywhere near as hot. The manifold in question in this thread is cracked at the collector where the waste gate tube joins the party. There isn't a lot weight being supported there. I would bet that on a dyno pull, that area is the first to start glowing, which would mean it gets the hottest. That would lead me to believe that its going to ruin the material there first and have the most thermal expansion/contraction there which is what leads to the cracks. Id bet when that crack is MUCH bigger when the manifold is warm. I have braced manifolds before and had the brace crack, I don't believe that a brace is a viable fix for using the wrong material. I would love to see a intake manifold that failed because of lack of braces.

Thats my $.02 for what its worth, you are more than welcome to disagree.

[Captain Bondo]

Well, yes and no. It's not cooking the carbon out, what it'd doing is causing the carbon and chromium in the stainless to form chromium carbide.

Chromium carbide is like most carbide- very hard and fairly brittle.

Carbide precipitation/sensitization as it is called, occurs in 304 stainless at around 1400 degrees. It occurs around 1600 degrees in 321 which is why it is a preferred material.

So yeah, it can and does happen, and it can and does decrease lifespan.

BUT, most 304 these days is sold as 304/304L. This rating represents materials with a far lower carbon content than standard 304. What that means is that it is less prone to conversion and when it does, fewer carbides are formed.

So, it's debatable if the heating/carbon issue is still valid these days. You can certainly still damage it by welding it badly though.

I am hoping the thicker stainless headers should last 100,000 miles.

I would guess Phil's maybe has 20,000 on it maybe? It's been a year and a half but it doesn't get driven much.

I have no idea on the thinwall ones.

I've been tempted to go to sched 40 steel and have them ceramic coated. Fairly comparable cost-wise and it might mean maybe a slightly cheaper uncoated mild steel option.

I'd need to practive and see if I could comfortably single pass it though.

I can just barely single pass sched 10, last time I welded schedule 40 I had to run 2 passes. Ifd it takes 2 passes it ain't worth it because of how much extra time that repsesents.

The crack at the flange on that header is just a straight up weld failure. It wasn't welded properly.

The crack at the wastegate is likely from the piping being so long and unsupported as Nils said. A lot of leverage.

I am leaning more and more toward mandating dual wastegates on twinscroll headers.

It makes for simpler, shorter piping (on the header side anyways) with makes it easier to make in a reasonable amount of time and makes it more durable.

At some point maybe Vince will realize how big of a jump it is to go from fluxcoring some manifold for yourself together with unlimited time, to building fully backpurged stainless thinwall tig welded units in the sub-8 hour timeframe required to make any money at it.
Maybe then he'll talk a little less trash in threads like this or Bne's.

[Tom Wiley]

Your 2002 does not have a turbo bolted to the header, it does not get anywhere near as hot. The manifold in question in this thread is cracked at the collector where the waste gate tube joins the party. There isn't a lot weight being supported there. I would bet that on a dyno pull, that area is the first to start glowing, which would mean it gets the hottest. That would lead me to believe that its going to ruin the material there first and have the most thermal expansion/contraction there which is what leads to the cracks. Id bet when that crack is MUCH bigger when the manifold is warm. I have braced manifolds before and had the brace crack, I don't believe that a brace is a viable fix for using the wrong material. I would love to see a intake manifold that failed because of lack of braces.

Thats my $.02 for what its worth, you are more than welcome to disagree.

What material would you use?

[linuxman51]

he already answered that question.

[GabAlmighty]

I used to have a brace on my header but it just kept breaking so we decided to just leave it off and it's been fine ever since. I think Kenny fixed the bracket 1-2 times on the car and each time I fixed it it broke not too long after putting it on. Plus the header has survived a violent "pull" from a median, don't worry, it's strong

[Captain Bondo]

. I have braced manifolds before and had the brace crack, I don't believe that a brace is a viable fix for using the wrong material. I would love to see a intake manifold that failed because of lack of braces.


If you brace it with a rigid brace, you just add as many problems as you cure in many cases.

Thinwall headers should be braced like this:

http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj282/RedlineStav/DSC03780.jpg


All of the F1 turbo motors have baddass bracing arrangements.

And yeah as Gab says, that car had rigid a brace and it would literally just keep breaking the studs it was bolted to.

I understand your reasoning regarding the intake manifold, but the bottom line is if the header is free to expand and contract naturally, and has no mechanical load on it, it's just an exhaust gas conduit. It doesn't need to actually be very "strong"

[Alex Buchka]

At some point maybe Vince will realize how big of a jump it is to go from fluxcoring some manifold for yourself together with unlimited time, to building fully backpurged stainless thinwall tig welded units in the sub-8 hour timeframe required to make any money at it.
Maybe then he'll talk a little less trash in threads like this or Bne's.


Big +1 to that

[stylngle2003]

wtf is that turbine looking thing under the oil drain hose? drysump?

[sdturbo]

Crank case vent?

[Volvorules]

Wow, all Vince said was that it looks like the WG was where the downpipe used to be. And now Kenny wants him to die. Weird. Ease up there Captain!

[Captain Bondo]

Wow, all Vince said was that it looks like the WG was where the downpipe used to be. And now Kenny wants him to die. Weird. Ease up there Captain!


I don't want anyone to die.He's been playing armchair fabricator a lot lately in several different threads and it gets tiring.

[linuxman51]

wtf is that turbine looking thing under the oil drain hose? drysump?

looks like some sort of air pump run off of the drysump..

[Captain Bondo]

looks like some sort of air pump run off of the drysump..

Dry sump is the black bit, turbine thing is the crank case evac. They run negative crank case pressure.

[gdogg16]

Dry sump is the black bit, turbine thing is the crank case evac. They run negative crank case pressure.
Towery's mom runs negative crank case pressure.

[Volvorules]

Remember, it's only the internet :)

[Bob]

So Kenny, do you recommend running your bottom mount headers (I was in the first round buy) without the rigid brace between the turbo and head flanges?

[Captain Bondo]

Phil's header broke the stud twice. First time I figured it might be an anomaly (old studs etc).

The first time was before I made the first run, so what I did was make the piece after the 90 degree bend that bolts to the head longer, to give the braces more "give" (they serve as a vibration dampener more than a brace really). Phil's (Gab's) broke a second time so we just removed it.

There is a method to this madness and a reason I did not install a modifed brace on Gab's car. Gabs car is local and is the guinea pig, so if the brace ends up being needed and I find the header cracks, easy fix. If it's fine for another year then I'll just stop making braces.

This way I have cars in the field with no brace, and the modified brace. The high-risk test case (actually header failure) is local. The low risk test cases (just a broken stud) are the remote ones.

So long story short-
Especially if it's already on you car, given it's the "new design", I would leave it on. In both cases on Phil's the stud broke under the nut, not at the head, resulting in a stub once the brace was removed (header still on the car even). Grabbed it with vice grips and spun it out.

So worst case scenario it'll break that stud - in which case that confirms the brace should be just deleted.


Better to run it though as all "durability testing" to this point has been using the brace, and that testing has been a 0% header failure thus far, so I'd run it for now.:nod:

Does that makes sense? Sorry I can't give you a more solid answer...

[Bob]

Makes sense. I have the brace installed and will leave it until I see a reason not to.

[2fast242gt]

I don't want anyone to die.He's been playing armchair fabricator a lot lately in several different threads and it gets tiring.

tampon? ease up there buddy, remeber its only turbobricks. i think your letting stuff get to you a bit easy. im sure you will just delete this anyways with your super mod powers.