B230FT sheetmetal intake [Archive] - Page 2

YellowT5-r

12-23-2009, 07:40 PM

,

Hmmm, a 5 cylinder intake. That would be fun, and would take some thought when building jigs and fitting stuff with only 5 cylinders, but definatly cool. What kind of hours do you guys keep down there? Ever around on a Saturday? I work pretty heavily from 6 to 430 or so M-F, but game to shoot down on Sat.

I should go pickup an intake gasket for a 5 cylinder and a 16V head and see what I can do there. I need to find a car with one it and see the restrictions for that setup, and see what I can do for your project.

On the 8V stuff, im just about complete with the injector bung jig, kind of ironic, I had to build a jig to build the jig!

As far as price....I am still on track for a price point like that. i may go a little higher and have the shipping included....I see your in Seattle, we would just meet up sometime when I was doing a Craigslist deal or something!

As the guy who's getting the 5-lung conversion done by them, I'm definitely interested in you getting together and talking with them.

The project involves connecting these bits:

http://i602.photobucket.com/albums/tt106/YellowT5-R/Brick/aaronst5swap012.jpg
to these bits in here...
http://i602.photobucket.com/albums/tt106/YellowT5-R/Brick/aaronst5swap026.jpg

to make beautiful suck, squish, bang, blow music together.

P.S., sorry to thread jack with pictures of my junk, but I think they're worth a thousand words.

nathaninwa

12-23-2009, 11:11 PM

Them are purdy parts, and when it all comes together will make a nice ride. I have chatted with RSI about a weekend rundown and am totally interested in it. I need to get a few of the 8v intakes out and lets chat. Whats your time frame?

Group A

12-23-2009, 11:39 PM

Whats your time frame?
Yesterday. :lol:

nathaninwa

12-23-2009, 11:44 PM

Yesterday. :lol:

LOL....so I just pmd the cars owner......do I see in the pics a small lower intake section that has the injector bungs cast in? Looks like it needs some porting but should open up pretty good. I can blend some intake runner into a kickass plenum and intall a fuel rail. Would speed things up tremendously on my end. Any thoughts on that? With the Holiday apon us, I might be able to work something out to head down after work on Monday the 4th?

Ill call down there when the time gets closer.

Group A

12-23-2009, 11:56 PM

LOL....so I just pmd the cars owner......do I see in the pics a small lower intake section that has the injector bungs cast in? Looks like it needs some porting but should open up pretty good. I can blend some intake runner into a kickass plenum and intall a fuel rail. Would speed things up tremendously on my end. Any thoughts on that? With the Holiday apon us, I might be able to work something out to head down after work on Monday the 4th?

Ill call down there when the time gets closer.Yes, that is a 6cyl whiteblock lower section. You can cut off 1 cylinder and use it on a 5cyl with a little welding and port work.

At this point and due to the time constraints, we will most likely just build a one off manifold for it.

You are still welcome to come down and check everything out of course.

YellowT5-r

12-24-2009, 01:26 PM

Yesterday. :lol:

LOL....Pat's just in a rush cause he got in trouble yesterday :-P. Pat, I tried to call you at the shop yesterday to talk about this, that's how I know. Has that vein on Mitch's forehead gone down yet, or should he be seeking medical attention?

Captain Bondo

12-24-2009, 02:30 PM

If you're in a rush, just modify an ME7 intake for a mechanical throttle body. Takes like an hour or two. :e-shrug:

YellowT5-r

12-24-2009, 02:39 PM

I'm in a lot less of a rush than they are. I just want to make sure the project gets the sex it deserves (no love stains on the upholstery though, please). Plus, it might make a good excuse to see what stock whiteblock rods can actually handle with a proper tune! :oogle: This motor is really serving as a test bed to get the plumbing and engine management sorted before we actually do the built motor, similar to your approach. One of these days I'll actually stop messing up the OP's thread and start a build thread for the project, but I'm too damned busy with work and holidays right now.

Captain Bondo

12-24-2009, 03:08 PM

An ME7 intake is more than enough to turn your stock rods into horseshoes. You might squeeze out ~340whp on stock rods.

I should know if any of mine are bent in the next week or two when I do the teardown. I wouldn't be suprised.

morganpartee

12-24-2009, 03:11 PM

Sure wish there were options like that for redblocks. Maybe its cosworth manifold hackup time?

YellowT5-r

12-24-2009, 05:31 PM

Actually, the OP is making those manifolds for 8 valve redblocks. I'm just trying to distract him into making some 5-cylinder white block ones.

nathaninwa

12-25-2009, 02:45 PM

Alright, back on topic here. I got a little more done this morning before the family meets for the Holiday. Ill see if I cant get it back on the car tomorrow and get the TB all welded on along with the throttle cable mount.

Happy Holidays to you all.

http://i816.photobucket.com/albums/zz88/nathaninwa/Mobile%20Uploads/1225091001.jpg

http://i816.photobucket.com/albums/zz88/nathaninwa/Mobile%20Uploads/1225091004.jpg

Test fit on the car to see if the fuel rail will clear.

http://i816.photobucket.com/albums/zz88/nathaninwa/Mobile%20Uploads/1224090845.jpg

alexm963

12-25-2009, 03:47 PM

Nathan I have access to a full machine shop and capabilities of welding aluminum, but if I ever need anything done in aluminum it will go to you. That is beautiful. Perhaps I missed in the thread but will these be sold raw or powdercoated?

Turbeam

12-25-2009, 05:07 PM

That is a thing of beauty.

I wouldn't want to do anything more to that than perhaps anodise it, but some Autosol and elbow grease would bring it up lovely too....

morganpartee

12-25-2009, 05:09 PM

So is there any fear in erosion when using methanol injection?

nathaninwa

12-25-2009, 08:17 PM

So on the finish end. Because of all the small parts and the work on them I ended up having to use a 3m scotchbrite to dress them up. So far the plenums are ok raw but have minor scratching. I can leave them like that, or scotchbrite the whole setup, which is actually powdercoat ready. I have a coater here in town, I should hit him up for a quote. The setup could be polished, but would take alot of work. My other thought was to sandblast them with a fine powder. 2 problems is any surface accidental rubbing shows really bad and the best part of all, the weld, kind of gos away. SO I am not sure yet.

And I have been thinking about the meth injection, or at least looking into it. The great part of the alum I am using is its corrosion resistant. Its a blend of 6061 and 5086 material, both of which are used in Saltwater applications on Boats. So that should be OK, not 100 percent tho.

timpanama

12-26-2009, 07:11 AM

how much to buy one of these beasts?

nathaninwa

12-27-2009, 12:04 AM

how much to buy one of these beasts?

I am shooting for 650 blanket shipped in the US. I would have to see what other places would be with a base price for the manifold. After today I was thinking I should double the price, I spent darn near 8 hours getting the TB and throttle brackets modded and welded on. And had to get the Fuel rail plumbed. But its done, and should be simpler next time, and I even got the kickdown cable operational after I had to tweak the throttle spool to get WOT. Ill see if there is something easier, or I may leave it kind of generic blank and the let end user do a little fab, or offer a complete service in the end. Im on track to getting my car up and running this week and the second Dyno manifold should be about done NewYears weekend. Then Ill start on some to sell to you guys.

So here is the pics from today.

Basic shot of the welded intake off the car ready for a little clean up.
http://i816.photobucket.com/albums/zz88/nathaninwa/Mobile%20Uploads/1226091943.jpg

Close up of the TB spool and longer control rod, what a PITA
http://i816.photobucket.com/albums/zz88/nathaninwa/Mobile%20Uploads/1226091940.jpg

Fuel inlet
http://i816.photobucket.com/albums/zz88/nathaninwa/Mobile%20Uploads/1226091935.jpg

FPR and return hardline under intake for clean appearnce
http://i816.photobucket.com/albums/zz88/nathaninwa/Mobile%20Uploads/1226091933.jpg

Two just about done intakes
http://i816.photobucket.com/albums/zz88/nathaninwa/Mobile%20Uploads/1226091929.jpg

And a shot on the car just before the afternoon weld sesion
http://i816.photobucket.com/albums/zz88/nathaninwa/Mobile%20Uploads/1226091454.jpg

I still need to weld in some fitting for Idle air and some vacuum ports. So most likely friday for a start up.

Hodginsa

12-27-2009, 12:08 AM

I do envy your skills.. That all looks beautiful.

Maybe I should have asked for a tig welder for christmas

edit: wanna make a trade? Ill build you a Megasquirt V3 MS1 for LH 2.4 for one heh

maxman142001

12-27-2009, 12:15 AM

WOW! Amazing..everything looks perfect! what FPR are you running?

nathaninwa

12-27-2009, 12:31 AM

WOW! Amazing..everything looks perfect! what FPR are you running?

I am using some Toyota FPR's...that ones off a Supra. I have 2 more of them, one off a 22RE I can use and a spare 4g63 unit. I see now that the Volvo unit uses a 14mm oring, so I may try to start using them. The upper plenum section is not shaped right to actual use a Volvo rail, minor clearacne issues. But maybe a little cut, cut, grind, grind and it will work.

edit: wanna make a trade? Ill build you a Megasquirt V3 MS1 for LH 2.4 for one heh

Only a MS1 huh, not a V3 MS2? I have used megasquirt in several projects of mine, and for the time being I want to stick with LH. Volvo engineers spent along time to get things right, and I have Mikes chips, but I may start to out HP it soon, so maybe well talk then.

Homer

12-27-2009, 01:52 AM

Amazing work right there.
One comment though, I do wish there was a way to do something a bit cleaner looking with the throttle spool setup.

maxman142001

12-27-2009, 01:54 AM

oh, and when will the dyno testing take place?

Hodginsa

12-27-2009, 01:56 AM

Only a MS1 huh, not a V3 MS2? I have used megasquirt in several projects of mine, and for the time being I want to stick with LH. Volvo engineers spent along time to get things right, and I have Mikes chips, but I may start to out HP it soon, so maybe well talk then.

Yeah, just MS1 stuff here, I have a blank board on my desk waiting to be soldered, but I don't want to start it until I know what kind of car its going in to.. haha

For sure let me know if you want it, or I might just end up buying one of these, probably not until the summer if anything, so broke right now... :-P

nathaninwa

12-27-2009, 01:58 AM

nathaninwa

12-27-2009, 02:01 AM

oh, and when will the dyno testing take place?

Those details are being worked out. Another board memeber is going to make it happen. So its on his time frame once I ship, but I am going to ask a initial redyno of his car, then a swap hopefully on the same day so the ambient and stuff will be the same. I will keep the thread updated with that info.

Homer

12-27-2009, 02:01 AM

Well, since I am going to be installing a T5 soon, I should be able to redo the throttle cable and have just in stainless braid from Lokar or somebody......and do the same for other manual owners.......do you have any ideas for the auto kickdown cable and getting rid of the spool? Not sure if there is a reliable way to lengthen the stock tranny cable. I do agree, the Spool could be a little more sexier.

I've never messed with the spool or throttle body, but if the half moon spline matches some of the jenvey throttle cam stuff i've got. You might be able to ditch that whole setup. (Manual cars only though.)

lookforjoe

12-27-2009, 12:59 PM

Your work is certainly impressive! That manifold is a thing of beauty! Looking forward to quantitative testing results & finished pics!

linuxman51

12-27-2009, 01:03 PM

very nicely done. look forward to seeing what it does

nathaninwa

12-31-2009, 01:17 AM

I got the throttle dialed in tonight with the proper shaft, the plenum completely welded and all the vacuum and idle ports welded in. I sneaked and took thursday off this week too so i should be able to fire the 940 up tomorrow. All thats left is a little port work on the injector bungs sticking into the runner.
I have also decided, and got a hold of my buddy at English Racing in Portland, to have my car dynod too. I want a baseline for the engine build I have underway and this way well see what a pretty stock 15g car puts out with this manifold.

http://i816.photobucket.com/albums/zz88/nathaninwa/Mobile%20Uploads/1230092030.jpg

http://i816.photobucket.com/albums/zz88/nathaninwa/Mobile%20Uploads/1230092031.jpg

pyropete125

12-31-2009, 06:08 PM

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2002-10/60331/04-13-08_1349.jpg

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2002-10/60331/04-12-08_1413.jpg

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2002-10/60331/tn_IMG_0607.jpg (http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2002-10/60331/IMG_0607.JPG)

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2002-10/60331/customintake.jpg

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2002-10/60331/customintake5.jpg

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2002-10/60331/customintake3.jpg

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2002-10/60331/headerintake2.jpg

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2002-10/60331/04-06-08_1442.jpg

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2002-10/60331/04-24-08_1932.jpg

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2002-10/60331/2009-232-21-7-15-1-media1.jpeg

just some different options :D

nice fab work in this thread! people are doing some really nice and ingenious stuff here :)

nathaninwa

12-31-2009, 09:11 PM

Nice lookin manifold. When I get a few 8V's done I would like to venture down the 16V street, just need to to locate some oval intake tubing. I got the 940 back in the garage and drying out (been raining lots here) and the intake all assembled and ready to bolt on. I am going to clean the PCV system later tonight before I do the intake. The cold side IC piping is done....but need to install the 012 meter for the bigger injectors I installed. SO really late tonight or early in the morning Ill get her started back up again and get the boost turned up a bit, and I need to hardpipe the turbo inlet, I am only building 10psi now, but sometime on a hard accel it will fall on its face and have a 5K rev limit and boost drops off.....lift and it will come back. Does it more when its colder than not outside tho. Its not consitant so Im thinking its the inlet hose.
Anyways, heres ready to install pics.

http://i816.photobucket.com/albums/zz88/nathaninwa/Mobile%20Uploads/1231091627.jpg

http://i816.photobucket.com/albums/zz88/nathaninwa/Mobile%20Uploads/1231091625.jpg

http://i816.photobucket.com/albums/zz88/nathaninwa/Mobile%20Uploads/1231091630.jpg

WeezilUSA

01-01-2010, 12:23 AM

Thats hot. If you want to do a local dyno comparison, I'd be happy to drive down in a couple months?

dbh86

01-01-2010, 12:30 AM

Looks good. Give it a nice clear powdercoat to keep it looking good!

klr142

01-01-2010, 12:36 AM

Dyno in Portland? We're needing to arrange for one of those soon... http://ovtuners.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=5527

nathaninwa

01-01-2010, 01:00 AM

Thats hot. If you want to do a local dyno comparison, I'd be happy to drive down in a couple months?

Maybe we can head down when I get my new motor built with all my goodies? 3 months or so is what I am looking at. I a picking up a block from GotBoost to build and do my manual swap at that time too. Id like to see 300whp.

nathaninwa

01-01-2010, 01:03 AM

Dyno in Portland? We're needing to arrange for one of those soon... http://ovtuners.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=5527

I have a friend that works at English Racing. I read your post and your needing a 4 wheel dyno....they have one. My friend has a Evo thats putting down 538whp.....just crazy

Any idea when your thinking about getting together? First of feb would work. I would almost have 2 more intakes built and ready for sale.

klr142

01-01-2010, 04:38 AM

Pm'd.

DagazEnterprise

01-01-2010, 04:48 PM

those are some really nice looking welds, what alloy are you using? if you need it heat treated let me know, i work for a casting company and heat treat stuff all the time

nathaninwa

01-02-2010, 01:49 PM

those are some really nice looking welds, what alloy are you using? if you need it heat treated let me know, i work for a casting company and heat treat stuff all the time

Im using a mixture of 6061 and 5086 for all manifold parts with 5356 filler. Not sure if we need them heat treated or not, I used thick enough material that the balooning effect will almost be not present, but will keep you in mind. What exactly will the heat treat do for them?

Anyways, almost got it ready to fire last night, Im kind of picking about routing things and having it look as clean as possible so a little more time has been spent. Im working on the IAC line today and getting the 012 intalled with new filter....then its prime and go, so I hope.

Heres some pics from last night.

http://i816.photobucket.com/albums/zz88/nathaninwa/Mobile%20Uploads/0101001703.jpg

http://i816.photobucket.com/albums/zz88/nathaninwa/Mobile%20Uploads/0101002217.jpg

http://i816.photobucket.com/albums/zz88/nathaninwa/Mobile%20Uploads/0101002246.jpg

str8krewzn

01-02-2010, 02:39 PM

WoW..........:oogle::oogle:

Roy 940

01-02-2010, 06:31 PM

It's totally amazing!!! You start your motor? What's the results? It's running???

maxman142001

01-02-2010, 06:32 PM

does it run?

nathaninwa

01-02-2010, 06:54 PM

Yep, she runs great....still a bit rough at idle, but i did install the 012 and the 55lb Delphis.....so I wont concern myself with it till later this week and let LH tune a bit. The idle smooths when its in drive, only in park and nuetral does it hover from about 6 to 800 rpm. I will tinker with the throttle plate opening too as i its still straight off the 960....who knows, might be a vacuum leak somewheres too. There is this new odd whining noise coming from under the dash when its under boost, sounds like a small fan when its rubbing a platic shroud. Hard to source that when it only happens when I am on the throttle. Speaking of throttle, much crisper now and smooth, for some reason I gained 2psi from all stock with MBC it would hover in the 10 to 11 range, nows its rock solid at 13psi. Needs more boost now, it peaks off at about 3/4 throttle, so its more boost and now its exhaust time. I am still running the 13c with 15g wheel and 2.5 pipe through a non ported stock exhaust manifold.

Other than that, not one problem with the restart, just cycled the key a bunch of times to prime and check for fuel leaks (none) and practically fired up like I drove her yesterday, even tho its almost been 2 month.

I am very happy with it and cant wait to get to the dyno. Ill finish up with the other dyno manifold this week and then start 2 more for you guys to start snatching up.

http://i816.photobucket.com/albums/zz88/nathaninwa/Mobile%20Uploads/0102001315.jpg

http://i816.photobucket.com/albums/zz88/nathaninwa/Mobile%20Uploads/0102001316.jpg

http://i816.photobucket.com/albums/zz88/nathaninwa/Mobile%20Uploads/0102001319.jpg

Roy 940

01-02-2010, 06:59 PM

I'm very happy for you! It's a good news, and I'm very interested about the dyno results!!!

maxman142001

01-02-2010, 07:00 PM

great success! cant wait to see numbers..if only the stock manifolds were this pretty :)

Dammit

01-02-2010, 07:33 PM

Any plans to look at a five cylinder version in 2010?

nathaninwa

01-02-2010, 08:50 PM

Any plans to look at a five cylinder version in 2010?

Yep, sometime in Feb I guess I am headed to Portland to do just that.

I had a small boost leak today and thats what was causing the weird noise.....I think it was at the TB gasket and it was vibrating it....strange.

And I found out from the old owner that the cat is still intact, so a test pipe will be in my future.

Dammit

01-02-2010, 09:09 PM

Scorchio.

volvoluvin

01-02-2010, 11:22 PM

Wow, I tell ya, if I had the V-Ron still you would have dollars in your account right now for one of these, regardless of performance gains or not. More semi-chub in those welds and work than a group of teenagers at prom...absolutely gorgeous work. Well done man, well done!

DagazEnterprise

01-03-2010, 11:51 AM

[QUOTE=Nathaninwa;2870551]Im using a mixture of 6061 and 5086 for all manifold parts with 5356 filler. Not sure if we need them heat treated or not, I used thick enough material that the balooning effect will almost be not present, but will keep you in mind. What exactly will the heat treat do for them?

Anyways, almost got it ready to fire last night, Im kind of picking about routing things and having it look as clean as possible so a little more time has been spent. Im working on the IAC line today and getting the 012 intalled with new filter....then its prime and go, so I hope.

we would heat treat them for longevity and material consistency, you heat it up and bring it to a dead state where the metal is at it's softest and most uniform then you heat treat it so that there are no weak links such as the toe of the weld or heat affected zone, it releaves any stresses in the metal brought about by welding it and will improve the overall performance of the metal, i'm not an engineer so i can only give you a birds eye view but we have heat treating and aging process that perhaps would allow thinner material to be used in the future without sacrificing integrity, if you want me to look into it, i'd be happy to.

maxman142001

01-03-2010, 04:08 PM

any more driving impressions? butt dyno results?

nathaninwa

01-03-2010, 05:23 PM

any more driving impressions? butt dyno results?
.

Alot has happened...where to begin.

Before the intake swap I had a 016 and stock green injectors, all factory style inlet and ic piping with the addition of a SSQV post turbo, pre ic. Car would take WOT with stock boost at 8psi and depending on the temp would limit at 5k or so. I turned the boost up to 10-11psi and it was real tempermental on temp and the 5krpm limit. I left it at that thinking it was my intake hose colapsing........

So the intake build thread started........

New intake on the car now with slight idle problems, upgraded to 012 and 55 Delphis i could crank up the throttle plate to smooth out the idle, but its close to 1k.
Boost was up to 13psi now with no adjustments
Drove the car and happy with the snap and accel but would crap out at 45 to 5krpm again and if you remember in the last post I had this odd reed valve sound.
So I took some friends for a ride last night and man was I and them dissapointed. 4500 it falls flat on its face.
This morning I made up a boost leak checker that took the place of the cone filter. HOLY S%$T was there some boost leaks. where do I start......stock intake boot torn where crank case vent hose gos and around the eletric adapter for that PCV hose......CBV was leaking at my gasket......turbo outlet hose was leaking from hose clamp not tight, and the base gasket to the 960 throttle body was doing that reed vibrating thing. All this at 5psi supply air.
fast forward to all the leaks fixed and car idles much, adjusted the TB and went for a 10 mile drive at 40 to 50 in 2nd, drive and OD building like 5psi to get LH to relearn something.
First WOT run and the car build 13psi and revs to 4700 rpm and stays there and stumbles. Im getting really urked now but I hear another leak.
so under the hood and I find the outlet of the IC where I used the stock rubber coupler for a bushing for my 3 inch stuff has come apart and is pushing 170K miles worth of turbo goo out. I checked the IC inlet and its clean, so my stock IC is full of oil. I swap some hose clamps around and get the connection tight.
Since I just realized the stock IC is full of oil I decided to take my MBC out and run the stock 8psi so not alot more oil is pushed out till I get it clean. About a mile farther down the road and Im able to slow down, gear down to 1st and try it again.

All smiles this time. Revs to TLAO 6800 and man does she sound good and have smooth power all the way through. Very snappy and pulls way better than the stock one did when it would not suck the intake hose closed.
I also built a new hard alum intake tube for the turbo
I have a big exhaust restriction. Major boost creep to 15psi with no MBC hooked up, where it should be at 8 or so. Id say the intake really flows more air than the stock one and much quicker. I am very happy now that its all worked out

WeezilUSA

01-03-2010, 08:54 PM

Nice to hear, It will be awesome to see some results once things get turned up more!

sb765t

01-06-2010, 10:49 PM

awesome. This is on my list to have you build one for me later this year - probably April or May. I'll probably have you do an Infinity Q45 throttle body, or some other *large* TB (3" or so), and no IAC, and very little boost line connections or vacuum ports. I think I'm severely being restricted on the intake side, with the amount of power being produced. Absolutely gorgeous work, and I want to see what happens on the dyno!!

stylngle2003

01-07-2010, 12:43 PM

interested in an 8V manifold when they become available

nathaninwa

01-07-2010, 02:15 PM

im am finishing up this weekend with the other dyno mani....waiting on another 960tb to show up for mockup. then ill start doing these 2 or 3 at a time. ill have our dyno results back before the first group is done. i have at this time 6 interested US peeps that have pmd me and one that needs to head to the land down under. not really taking deposits...ill just build them. a depoist will obligate me to a time frame and i am a family man so sometimes i just cant get to the garage..........thankyou for all the interest. looks like in 3 more saturdays ill hit the dyno.

TME Racing Photography

01-07-2010, 02:23 PM

I'm sure you have more than 6 interested people in the US. I know I for one want to see the dyno results and price before I tell you I want one. Just been waiting. I know all this takes time. Plus I'm broke right now anyway lol.

nathaninwa

01-07-2010, 09:25 PM

Boy you dont have to mention that time thing....Im on track with you there. Im still crunching numbers and seeing what some of the materials are going to cost if I buy in bulk. And I need to add up all the hours. I bet with this being a fuel manifold (rather than just straght air) and the time to setup the stock throttle spool, I bet there is 15 to 16 hours total time.

Anyways...i picked up a pc of 3/4 alum stock for the intake flange, might try using that and blending from round to oval for a 16V head. Then all my jigs would work along with the current build setup. What I would need is a Turbo 16V with a dyno graph to try my manifold out. Even better would be someone who has built a sheetmetal intake with the oval ports for comparison. Anyone out there? Just feeling it out.

nathaninwa

01-14-2010, 08:29 PM

Ive been drving around for a while and really enjoy this manifold. After my Dyno run next weekend Ill post up a Dyno thread and relate all my results since I have installed my Wideband last weekend and what I ended up running on the electronics end and the AFR results.

I have a few pics here of the intake i am sending to the Eastcoast for a Dyno sension over there. I have used this manifold for making up trick mounts for the spool and cable, and got an adapter for the 960 stock throttle linkage to work. What you see in the pics...alum bolt on adapter (the stock ball is trimmed off to the base and its used as a locator and push point), rodend and stainless linkage is what I am tooling up to include in my kits. So there is no parts anyone has to send back to me, Im going to work on fabbing up a throttle/kickdown bracket to include too. This is going to be a complete bolt on, will only need to modify your throttle spool and use the stock left handed nut and rod end off the stock throttle linkage. Im also working on a way to use the stock FPR as well.
A new shorter alternator belt will be needed to clear the charcoal canister lines, and no wiring will need to be lengthened,will just need to open the harness up a bit for the tps wiring to stretch. The end user need to adapt into there IC piping for a idle air control inlet.

http://i816.photobucket.com/albums/zz88/nathaninwa/Mobile%20Uploads/0114001952.jpg

http://i816.photobucket.com/albums/zz88/nathaninwa/Mobile%20Uploads/0114001951.jpg

Chrisco

01-14-2010, 10:52 PM

Turbeam

01-15-2010, 12:01 AM

smokeyfan1000

01-15-2010, 12:12 AM

Now that's whatI call an intake, by God! Beautiful work!!!!!! Well Done is an understatement IMO.

L8 APEKS

01-15-2010, 12:25 AM

Any ballpark on pricing, or did I miss it earlier in the thread? I'm working on producing log style 8V manifolds soon.

nathaninwa

01-15-2010, 05:32 AM

Wouldn't the first cylinder run lean do to turbulence along the front wall of the plenum? AFAIK as a rule of thumb there should ideally be 1/2 to a full width of the runners clearance to the plenum walls. I don't think it's a huge factor except on the first cylinder since the air has to flow around such a tight radius.

This was discussed alot earlier in the thread....the front cylinder would run rich and the rear cylinder would run lean. With the TB open you can see all the velocity stacks inside, just the last part of number one, but its visible. There was some graphs put up for flow, but none actually replicated a boosted intake with valves shut. The only true method that I can see is to use an EGT probe on each cylinder. And I have plans to do that once I build a header. But in general under boost, alot of what we understand in air dynamics gos out the window.

nathaninwa

01-15-2010, 05:36 AM

I think overall that is a very neat package, and about as comprehensive and user-fit friendly as anyone could have expected it to be.

The only thing I would like to have seen is full length welds on the throttle spool brackets onto the plenum, for appearance and cleaning reasons even if not for strength.... but you might have just tacked it for trial fitting and have yet to go over this?

I really like the smooth 180 bend in the plenum wall, and I'm just thinking what the best way to have you make me an I6 version plenum design would be? .....

Good catch Turbeam, yes the spool and throttle bracket are only tacked and will be welded this weekend once a final dry fit on my car is done. I changed some things just enough that I need to make sure the throttle and kickdown cables are going to be long enough. I did my intake on the car, this one was on the bench, and when tapers and angles get involved being within an 1/8 inch might be good, but i want to know for sure.

And your plenum is down in the shop, even looked at the 960 the other day in the Yard too!

nathaninwa

01-15-2010, 05:37 AM

Now that's whatI call an intake, by God! Beautiful work!!!!!! Well Done is an understatement IMO.

Thankyou!

nathaninwa

01-15-2010, 05:39 AM

Any ballpark on pricing, or did I miss it earlier in the thread? I'm working on producing log style 8V manifolds soon.

I have crunched my numbers...waiting on the dyno results. Its still very close in price to my original target. I post all that after my Dyno day on the 23rd.

Are you building a log style intake or exhaust mani?

klr142

01-15-2010, 08:14 AM

I post all that after my Dyno day on the 23rd.Will people be able to come watch?

L8 APEKS

01-15-2010, 08:20 AM

I have crunched my numbers...waiting on the dyno results. Its still very close in price to my original target. I post all that after my Dyno day on the 23rd.

Are you building a log style intake or exhaust mani?

Intake. Good luck at the dyno, that's a god damn beautiful manifold!

IMHO, all this "1 cylinder will run rich/lean" stuff, I don't think it's an issue at all. For starters, things like airflow and thermodynamics are often more complicated than the naked eye can see. For instance, it doesn't seem logical, but putting a restriction in the intake to make a venturi can increase horsepower.

Not to mention...half of our cars are held together by duct tape and zip ties, and I don't know a single one of us that is running 4 wideband sensors (one in each cylinder) to monitor each cylinder individually. For all we know, there's already one cylinder running lean - either from the stock manifold design, or from the "upgraded" browntop junkyard injectors you installed that have 200,000 miles on them and aren't running perfectly.

I don't think it's going to make any real world difference at all.

Make sure you dyno back to back, with no other changes between runs except the manifold...otherwise the numbers will be worthless! And video tape it too!

Captain Bondo

01-15-2010, 08:21 AM

L8 APEKS

01-15-2010, 08:28 AM

I don't quite follow how the fuel rail mount works... you push it onto the injector bungs and the kinda angle it through into those holes and put nuts on? The fasteners don't seem to pull the rail downards onto the injector bungs for forcibly seal the o-rings? If so, me no likey. Not for boost that's for sure. That shizz needs to seal.

When installing, you should be able to push the rail in squarely and then tightening whatever bolts hold it in should pull the rail downwards towards the injector bungs and "cinch" it in and compressor the o-rings a bit.

Several factory fuel rail designs don't do anything to force the rail down on to the O-rings, but they don't leak. Boost doesn't make a difference, boost pressure doesn't go through the fuel rail. ;-)

The O-ring on the injector seals horizontally (against the sides of the fuel rail), not vertically; pushing the fuel rail down tight doesn't do anything to increase the seal because the O-ring doesn't extend over the top of the injector. As long as the O-ring is not damaged, you shouldn't have any issues at all.

Captain Bondo

01-15-2010, 09:02 AM

Several factory fuel rail designs don't do anything to force the rail down on to the O-rings, but they don't leak. Boost doesn't make a difference, boost pressure doesn't go through the fuel rail. ;-)

Boost pressure acts on the injectors themselves. It does indeed make a difference since in NA apps the injectors are only ever being "sucked" against the injector bosses by vacuum, or seeing ambient pressure. They never have any force trying to unseat them. Maybe it's of no consequence but it's worth considering.

The O-ring on the injector seals horizontally (against the sides of the fuel rail), not vertically; pushing the fuel rail down tight doesn't do anything to increase the seal because the O-ring doesn't extend over the top of the injector. As long as the O-ring is not damaged, you shouldn't have any issues at all.

"Squeezing" the o-ring forces it against the sides of the injector boss and injector, and improves the "side sealing" which is indeed how the oring seals as you say. It's pretty standard engineering practice to add around 10%-20% "squeeze" to captured o-rings like fuel injector o-rings to improve side sealing- you "flatten it out" a bit- it's like increasing the diameter of the o-ring kinda.

The intake I just finished up for my car uses stiff 1/2" tabs with threaded holes that draw the fuel rail down into the bosses just slightly like the factory does for good reason.

Again- not on of those things you *have* to do, but if you're going to the effort of doing it to begin with, you might as well, IMO.

Pulling the rail down squarely is just nicer execution IMO.

nathaninwa

01-15-2010, 10:19 AM

ahh...the dyno day. im not sure about having alot of visiters or not. my friend works for the place and is being kind enough to open shop for me on a saturday. i know some other peeps from rsi might be there, but i know they have a working relationship together. i dont really want to overstay my welcome so no real invite but ill look into it.
were towing my junk down there with the stock mani on. ill drive it around for 20 mins or so to get it all warmed up. make my pulls and and swap to the new manifold right then. ill use the same injectors so the only thing that will change will be the intake itself. ill go drive around again to warm car up and strap her back on the dyno for a few more pulls.
with the new intake i boost creep to 15psi so i have mbc to 15psi so there is no difference in boost ramps.
im bringing 3 friends. one owns the superduty thats getting the car there.....one is helping with the mani swap anf the other is dedicated video guy. hell get everything and well edit it to like a 1 min youtube video.
im wont be pulling down impressive numbers with this setup. its got a stage 1 cam advanced 2*......upgraded 13c charger with a 15g wheel....stock ic and piping.....stock exhaust with testpipe installed. its still running stock 016 and green tops with afr's 12's. oh and a set of mikes chips.....and im rockin 180K to boot!

with the injector seal concern alot of manufavturers dont crush them....they float a bit. gm is setup like this and i even think the stock volvo rail floats a bit as well....most use a clip in the rail to retain the injector so it dont get pushed out. come to think of it....the stock volvo rail is flat on the topside and the seal dont even make that far up....the body of the injector will bottom out before the seal squishes on something. toyota supras float...and so do the dsm guys.
i think its more important to have a smooth bore in the rai at the proper diamter. mine are a little tight and take some vasoline to get them in. there is about 40thou interference fit with the diamters.
i test my rails with shop line pressure (140psi) before i use them. and i think the most well in the might be 85psi at the rail if someone is running a 4 bar sensor and say 25psi of boost. i have about 7 rails out now over time like this with issues.
and with how i am mounting them it allows for all injector options. gm....volvo...and delphi all use the 14mm oring but all are differnt lengths. i have addressed this issue but my rail placement allows for any 14mm injector to fit.

nathaninwa

01-15-2010, 10:23 AM

i cant figure how to edit on my phone......i meant to say that i 7 rails out with no issues and also with the floating injector the end user can go from a brown top to a delphi with no problems or vise versa.

nathaninwa

01-15-2010, 10:29 AM

im excited about the dyno thats getting done on the other car......mines fairly stock compared to.....he making over 350whp so well have a real good comparo on what this mani will do in stock trim and modded trim. but....cant get the hopes up...may not be as extreme as we all think. will just have to wait for the numbers.
Posted via Mobile Device

WeezilUSA

01-15-2010, 10:49 AM

Best of luck!

L8 APEKS

01-15-2010, 10:53 AM

nathaninwa

01-15-2010, 11:10 AM

5 to 15 would be cool....im more interested in the tourque myself. so get this. with the stock manifold before i added the mbc..boost was rock solid at 8psi on stock wg. now with new intake and no mbc on stock wg it pegs to 10psi and boost creeps to 15psi. still stock exhaust and unported exh manifold and turbo housing.....but to boost creep 7psi with just a manifold change shows how restrictive the stock 230ft intake is.
the car feels alot snappier and has "the held held back against the seat" feel alot more and through more revs before you can feel it taper off.

dbh86

01-15-2010, 04:17 PM

Several factory fuel rail designs don't do anything to force the rail down on to the O-rings, but they don't leak. Boost doesn't make a difference, boost pressure doesn't go through the fuel rail. ;-)

Review what a Fuel Pressure Regulator does. (intake pressure) + (whatever the FPR is set at) = (fuel rail pressure)

ex. FPR set at 50psi, running 20 psi boost on the intake... your fuel rail sees 70 psi relative to atmospheric.

Your o-rings for you injectors see rail pressure on one side and then atmospheric on the other. I'd want to make sure these o-rings are seated the best they can be.

Also, please cite your examples of "factory rails that don't do anything to force the rail down on the oring."

All of this is important because some injectors will reliably run higher than 3-4 bar.

nathaninwa

01-15-2010, 05:44 PM

Review what a Fuel Pressure Regulator does. (intake pressure) + (whatever the FPR is set at) = (fuel rail pressure)

ex. FPR set at 50psi, running 20 psi boost on the intake... your fuel rail sees 70 psi relative to atmospheric.

Your o-rings for you injectors see rail pressure on one side and then atmospheric on the other. I'd want to make sure these o-rings are seated the best they can be.

Also, please cite your examples of "factory rails that don't do anything to force the rail down on the oring."

All of this is important because some injectors will reliably run higher than 3-4 bar.

Ill chime in here since this is kinda my thread and peeps concern.

So to start, some rails as an assembly force the whole thing into the intake manifold after they have been secured with a clip or external oring type that toyota uses. Some rails like the Chevy Tuned port injection, dont really have a bore for the base oring to seal on, its more or less a 45* taper that it seats on like a valve, but were only sealing vacuum and what ever boost pressure is present.

Thats on the intake side of things ^

Now onto the Fuel rail side that where we are sealing say up to 90psi of fuel pressure (4 bar fpr and 30psi of boost is about 90psi) I just took pictures of 4 rails I had laying around.

Volvo (14mm)....Eclipse 1g rail (11mm)....Toyota supra (11mm) and Toyota 22re (11mm). All of these are stock rails from there respective cars.

Volvo has a clips that fastens them to the rail.

1g, and both Toyotas use a cooshin style rubber ring that prevents up travel in the rail, so no mechanical squish via a clip.

All rails do physically bolt the injector into the manifold, meaning the hold down bolts are parrelel to the inejctor.

Now to the part we all want to know. ALL rails are through bores, meaning its a one size hole fully into the rail. You will see in the pics. The only rail that is not a through bore is teh Volvo, however its a square bottom like drilled with an endmill if you will and just a 1/4 inch sized hole for the gas to enter into the injector.

And if you note the injectors....the 14mm Delphi injector on the right has a blunt gas feed section of 3/8, so this surface will touch the Volvo feed rail before the oring touches anything on the top of it. SO ther is no top force, or any squish on a Stock Volvo manifold where people bolt on 4 bar FPRs and run 25psi.....85psi of rail pressure.

And all the other rails, the bore is straight through with no clips, only the bolt down force of the rail into the head, where its a big fat squared off ring that too only seals on the sides as the injector is not machined for a top sealing on the bottom end. And ironically youll see in the injector pic that the 11mm style on the 1g, and both toyota, the oring is not even at the top like our bosch style, its moved dowm a few mm....so no top squish there either.

I just went and looked at the stock intake im about to bolt back on my car tomorrow and the witness mark shows the intake, or bottom oring floating about halfway down the bore, not a taper seat on my Volvo manifold. SO Volvo totally floats there injector like my rail is setup and many people (ill say it again) run 4 bar FPRs and lots of boost.

So in short, with only side sealing, or pressure of the oring is sealing out 90psi of rail pressure. I shop test to 140psi with no issues.

If its good enough for Volvo, GM, Ford, Toyota, Mistu, its good enough for me.

in generail thinking too....if the injector was kinda sealing on top, and the injector got spun for any reason, like manitenance or what not, it would for sure scar the surface and rely on side sealing.

I run with about 40thou interferecne fit just like the Factorys do. I bought the right sized decimal reamer for the job.

Injectors.
http://i816.photobucket.com/albums/zz88/nathaninwa/Mobile%20Uploads/0115001704.jpg

22RE rail straight through bore
http://i816.photobucket.com/albums/zz88/nathaninwa/Mobile%20Uploads/0115001703.jpg

1G, from the DSM guys
http://i816.photobucket.com/albums/zz88/nathaninwa/Mobile%20Uploads/0115001655.jpg

Toyota Supra
http://i816.photobucket.com/albums/zz88/nathaninwa/Mobile%20Uploads/0115001653.jpg

and our Volvo units
http://i816.photobucket.com/albums/zz88/nathaninwa/Mobile%20Uploads/0115001659.jpg

nathaninwa

01-15-2010, 05:50 PM

alexm963

01-15-2010, 06:55 PM

lookforjoe

01-15-2010, 07:08 PM

Captain Bondo

01-15-2010, 07:31 PM

Guys it doesn't really matter. I am a nit picker. By all rights if the ID of the bung is the right size and the or-ings are in good shape, it should seal without any "squeeze". To me, there is a intuitive way to assumble something and I try to build based on that. Just my preference in this one instance.

nathaninwa

01-15-2010, 07:31 PM

Well to get back on topic Nathan, if you had to make the call would you say that your manifold would be more masculine or feminine as a whole. I just want to know if these thoughts I'm having about it are "normal" or if I should have a talk with my wife.

LMAO....its a known fact that guys are atracted to shiny things, alum things, chrome things, the sound of a revving small block, the whine of a turbo...you name it, if it makes a car go faster there will be eyes under the hood of something! So lets just call it SEXY for arguments sake!
and then talk to your wife about borrowing the Capital ONE :cool:

L8 APEKS

01-15-2010, 09:03 PM

And if you note the injectors....the 14mm Delphi injector on the right has a blunt gas feed section of 3/8, so this surface will touch the Volvo feed rail before the oring touches anything on the top of it. SO ther is no top force, or any squish on a Stock Volvo manifold where people bolt on 4 bar FPRs and run 25psi.....85psi of rail pressure.

And all the other rails, the bore is straight through with no clips, only the bolt down force of the rail into the head, where its a big fat squared off ring that too only seals on the sides as the injector is not machined for a top sealing on the bottom end. And ironically youll see in the injector pic that the 11mm style on the 1g, and both toyota, the oring is not even at the top like our bosch style, its moved dowm a few mm....so no top squish there either.

I just went and looked at the stock intake im about to bolt back on my car tomorrow and the witness mark shows the intake, or bottom oring floating about halfway down the bore, not a taper seat on my Volvo manifold. SO Volvo totally floats there injector like my rail is setup and many people (ill say it again) run 4 bar FPRs and lots of boost.

So in short, with only side sealing, or pressure of the oring is sealing out 90psi of rail pressure. I shop test to 140psi with no issues.

If its good enough for Volvo, GM, Ford, Toyota, Mistu, its good enough for me.

Thank you my good sir. :)

Homer

01-15-2010, 09:15 PM

OK, now that the Fuel deal is taken care of...here is a picture of the new throttle cable bracket...this one is for a 5 speed, but ill will fixture up and have a spot for the kickdown cable to mount.

Way cooler than a modded stockone. This one needs to get trimmed a little yet on the backside and some holes for mounting.

http://i816.photobucket.com/albums/zz88/nathaninwa/Mobile%20Uploads/0115001630a.jpg

http://i816.photobucket.com/albums/zz88/nathaninwa/Mobile%20Uploads/0115001942.jpg

Very nice sir. I like that solution alot better

dbh86

01-15-2010, 09:22 PM

Well that's good to know how OEM rails look. That side mount still makes me nervous though, even if it does look pretty. The throttle cable mount looks really nice.

@lfj, seals at the intake only see a pressure differential across them because of boost... seals at the rail see pressure differential across them because of boost and FP

nathaninwa

01-16-2010, 01:12 PM

I test fitted the poduction style intake now, and all is good, the throttle bracket worked out great, and I will build one for me that has the kickdown ready and Ill start to build them too.

And I think for my style of rail mount will work out...Ill beef up the mount thickness a little, drill and tap and provided a acorn style nut to secure it. With 80psi rail pressure, thats 40psi on each bolt in a shear load on a 1/4 bolt.....thats not a whole lot and more than enough strength to keep it in place.

A few pics.

http://i816.photobucket.com/albums/zz88/nathaninwa/Mobile%20Uploads/0116001200.jpg

Roy 940

01-22-2010, 12:27 PM

Hello!

Tommorow is the D-day? You're going to the dyno?
Good luck!
I'm excited to see the numbers...

L8 APEKS

01-22-2010, 12:38 PM

Yeah, looking forward to it! Really you should try to do a couple runs...start with stock mani, then swap them, then dyno this mani. Only way to tell for sure. Have fun and good luck!

linuxman51

01-22-2010, 12:43 PM

don't pull the car back off the dyno after swapping the rail, just warm it up on the dyno.

nathaninwa

01-22-2010, 06:14 PM

Cars on the trailer now and ready for out 8am departure. Im doing my final tool gathering and last min tweaks to the manifold to make the swap easier.
I have a friend who will shoot video and well get something edited later.

As far as the Dyno. Stock mani is on with stock amm and injectors. Well dyno that at 15psi. My plan is to get temps along the way. I have a heat gun to measure the intake, and exhaust.
Then well swap manifolds, get the car back to temperature and see what happens, again, getting temps along the way.

Its a 2 hour trip down there so i will get a spread sheet of the info i want so i dont forget to do it.

nathaninwa

01-23-2010, 09:23 PM

so were running late to getting home tonight. went to the dyno today. im waiting on the jpeg to get emailed to me but the new manifold made 17 more whp. ill do a bit more of a write when i get my dyno graph...but all in all a good day. made 189whp on stock manifold amd 206 on the sheetmetal. now its time for more mods and i have a good solid base to start from. well its been a long day and a long drive........ill post again when i get the graph.

TME Racing Photography

01-23-2010, 09:27 PM

Not bad at all! 17hp means it's worth buying. Now for a set price and to figure out how to round up the extra money to buy one lol. Wish I wasn't poor :(

linuxman51

01-23-2010, 09:47 PM

nice. I want to see the graphs when you get a chance.

Captain Bondo

01-23-2010, 10:09 PM

Nice - chances are the % increase will be even more on more powerful motors too, where the stock intake has become a bigger restriction.

noah244ti

01-23-2010, 10:45 PM

Nice - chances are the % increase will be even more on more powerful motors too, where the stock intake has become a bigger restriction.

Yeah thats quite suprizing to me, for such an increase on a mildly built motor... Great work. I've got money in the bank waiting on this one... :)

Group A

01-24-2010, 12:13 AM

Sorry we didn't make it to the dyno session. Jonathan had company to entertain and I had a bad migrane all day.

17whp is good for the mild mods done.

Roy 940

01-24-2010, 02:23 AM

17 whp? Very good! But you change the injectors and the TB? It's not only the manifold gain?

Captain Bondo

01-24-2010, 07:13 AM

Yeah thats quite suprizing to me, for such an increase on a mildly built motor... Great work. I've got money in the bank waiting on this one... :)

As I said 17whp is nice.The big question though is what has it actually done to the ve curve - this requires a dyno plot of the torque curve before and after.

17whp is only good if you aren't paying a big price in torque over 80% of the rest of the powerband. :nod:

Mueller

01-24-2010, 08:19 AM

Not bad at all! 17hp means it's worth buying. Now for a set price and to figure out how to round up the extra money to buy one lol. Wish I wasn't poor :(

not really and not for a stockish motor, it really depends on the price point...if priced at $600, you are looking at $35 per hp, it would be cheaper (free) to just turn up the boost to get your 17hp increase...

I agree with Captain Bondo, as mods increase the merit of this intake will become more valuable, but I think it would be silly to spend that kind of money for someone with low hp aspirations.

I really would like to see some number with someone running one of CB's exhaust manifold coupled with this intake !!!

wagonfetish

01-24-2010, 08:34 AM

....im more interested in the tourque myself.

+1

.... the car feels alot snappier and has "the held held back against the seat" feel alot more and through more revs before you can feel it taper off.

Can't wait to see the numbers!
Are you taking orders/payment yet?? :oogle:

klr142

01-24-2010, 08:34 AM

I agree with Captain Bondo, as mods increase the merit of this intake will become more valuable, but I think it would be silly to spend that kind of money for someone with low hp aspirations.If the torque curves look the same(or better) than the stock manifolds, it'd be damn well worth it to me... Efficiency increase? I think yes. I'd definitely enjoy the gas mileage increase or even the same gas mileage with more power. :nod:

Can't wait to see the whole write up Nathan! You're AWESOME for doing this!

nathaninwa

01-24-2010, 09:42 AM

Hi guys...I got very secumed to the whole dyno experience as this is my first trip to any kind of rollers. Im not sure if I will get the jpeg today or tomorrow. Its Sunday today and Im not sure when he is going back to the shop. I should have gotten a printout, but with all the other neat cars he had there, and all that was going on with my car with the swap and all, once i heard he emailed them to me, I mentally swiped that off my list.

I tried to get intake temps too, but kind of worthless with all the fans blowing.

The only thing that changed on the dyno was the intake and TB, I used the same injectors for all runs, just swapped them over to the new manifold during the swap, and yes I have a larger TB, but thats what the new intake is setup for, and really, I can fit just about any TB the end users wants to use. The stock tb is 55mm and the 960 tb is 65mm, so it is bigger, not huge like a Q45, but slightly bigger.

He was showing us alot of Dyno graphs yesterday, they do alot of 4g63 stuff and 2 drag cars that were putting down 950whp+ there, man them cars sound amazing, and they even have done a 1200whp 76 chevy pickup, boy do bigblocks sound nice with a ton of boost. So, where I was going with that, I only truly remember the overlayed graph that Im getting is of the HP curve. There actually pretty matched. My manifold carried the motor to peak power out 400rpm, and I still had a 11whp more where the stock manifold was taking a crap.

I was totally pushing the envelope yesterday as far AFR's go. We were hinging on the low 13's, not recomended but I told them to run it anyways. We were pretty steady at 15psi for all runs on a pretty low motor.
stock 91 b230ft, 180K
IPD turbo cam.
cranking pressure are averaging 145psi
stock 016 meter and green tops
modified 13c with a 15g wheel
stock IC
stock 2.25 DP
Stock fuel pumps
I have added a cone filter with an alum hard pipe for the turbo suction
And a CBV block off with a SSQV on the hot side
all stock AW71 and stock 3.73 gears

I think we found the stock injections hp limit. I dont think the pumps were liking me yesterday, my fuel pressure would start to drop off at the big end to 55psi rail pressure from an almost 70psi number.

So this manifold will need some tuning for sure, and like the Captain said, im sure well see a bigger increase on a car that is being choked out from the stocker.

So im going to say it....I bet i could have made a little more power in stock trim if i had a set of Brown tops installed, and more power with the SMIntake if the AFR's were down a bit more. But we can only speculate on that.

So along with the tuning, I needed to bring the base FP up to get my AFR's back on track. Ill admit it, on the first SMintake pull we lost power from the lean AFR's from the 206 final number to a 182 lean number, but that proves the restriction on the stock intake. So we needed to bring base FP up to get the AFR's to match the stock intakes tune. Is that cheating on the JUST swap the intake, I dont think so, its a good base for people who dont have a wideband that will know more needs to be added to keep the afr's in check. But I imagine this wont be the first mod peeps make, more exhaust is needed from my proof of boost creep, and 15psi is way alot on the stock injectors, stock pumps and with my cam. A smaller cam might help, along with an adjustable fpr.

So in the end not a bad day, the HP curves were way close, I know now I need more fuel (brown tops to start, or install my 55lb Delphis and take a trip so LH can tune them out a bit), its time for my 3 inch exhaust and a bigger turbo. I have header material here and a 16T, im on the hunt for the big 16g. So maybe Ill bolt all that onto the car before i build a new engine block and flog on this for a while.

Next step is to get my T5 tranny installed. 200whp is fun, but the gearing is all fubar in the auto, first and second are really long legged and not fun from a standing start....however if you can get the downshift just right from a rolling 20mph or so, now that puts a smile on my face.

If any of you guys in the Portland area are looking for a Dyno, get a hold of English Racing, really great guys and my buddy knows his way around a tune (only if ours could be hooked up to the laptop he says) and he is the one who tunes most of there 700+ hp drag cars and street cars. he has a killer EVO with 641whp and 539wtrq, thats AWHP!

The red graph is the SMIntake and the blue graph is the stock. That werd dip is was slight miss we had, cant explain it, but shows up

http://i816.photobucket.com/albums/zz88/nathaninwa/VolvoNathanSMIMfinal.jpg

linuxman51

01-24-2010, 10:00 AM

english racing are good people. you can request torque and hp over wheel speed to get rid of the dip. Smoother powerband with the intake, looks like without the dip there wouldn't have been any gains to around 4800 or so, but its good up top.

About what you would expect from an intake, most evo intakes do the same thing, lower numbers than the stocker up to around 5k, and good gains from there on. More mods to the car would probably underline this pretty well, the stock b230f intake manifold is pretty ****ty when you get down to it.

nathaninwa

01-24-2010, 11:15 AM

Can't wait to see the whole write up Nathan! You're AWESOME for doing this!

Thankyou. I really enjoyed this project. It was nice that people stood up and were an ass about some things, and gave good input on others. it was an accumulation of alot of trial and error and posting with flaming to get here, but the final product is all done and looks mint thanks to a group effort.

As far as final price, well im a bit over my 600 initial and a little over my 650 shipped mark. Ill be asking 700 shipped for the manifold.

Now, that will be a complete bolt on. I will supply a base gasket, a 960tb gasket if thats what your running, the fuel rail will hold your stock FPR (still need to make that happen) and the stock fuel feed line will bolt up to the -6 rail. I will have some sort of injector clips and theres room for all 3 lengths of boscsh style injectors that I know of. NO wiring needs to be done, just a little cut into the harness to pull some of the tps wiring out and tape it back up. I have a throttle mount that will also allow the kickdown cable to work properly. I will supply the throttle rod with the adapter for 960TB and trick rod end. There are 4 1/8 pipe threads and 2 1/4 pipe threads for stuff and I have a fitting for the stock IAC setup.

The end user will need to unbolt the engine dipstick and push it back a couple inches. Also the end user will need to fab up a IC pipe with a nipple for the IAC motor and your throttle spool will need to be modded a bit to fit onto my mount (really easy to do) and you will need to use your left handed jam nut and platic rodend for the throttle setup (my shaft will have the left handed stud on it) <that sounds funky!

I have a couple 960TB here that I will be able to sell with the intake for a slight price increase.

The first couple intakes are spoken for and I have 2 underway.

And if you have MS or something, I can delete the IAC fitting, change the vacuum ports around and if you have a TB you would like to run, I would just need you to send the TB and gasket so I can fab the plate and get the throttle to work, depending on throttle complexity with a different TB, there might be like a 20 charge or something to design and fab that up. all will depend on the stuff used.

J2_

01-24-2010, 11:22 AM

I'd like one too! talk more in pm? or... let me know ;) Got the cash..

L8 APEKS

01-24-2010, 12:34 PM

Very interesting! Good results too!

I'm gonna start on the log intake manifolds next month, shouldn't take long to make and dyno. I'm curious to see how the log design will measure up!

JohnBradley

01-24-2010, 06:24 PM

Nathan it was nice y'all could come down yesterday. Being one of the yoyo's that tunes cars at EnglishRacing, I can say without a doubt that this really is making a VE difference from about 4500+ as the AFRs went leaner. If it were an ECU or had a system I can plug into we could have seen some substantial gains I am sure. You'll notice it didnt lose any spool and I think that the stock intake probably peaked and would have been a linear drop from the few other pulls we did.

Not sure how hotly debated the subject is on this board (I know the Evo and Subaru stuff this is like gas on a fire) but the dynojet is nice since we can compare without fear of manipulation any number from our dyno to any other dynojet anywhere in the world. Also for those interested in power at the crank, it is my experience that most AWD systems lose 60-70hp from crank to wheels as a manual. Autos because of the torque converter seem to lose an additional 11% (this is a fixed percentage on a tight converter and no more than 15% on a loose) or so. We have a few race cars of each persuasion that have had nothing other than a tranny swap so the tech is pretty solid on that.

To the matter of air distribution, we could test with 4 individual EGT gauges to determine lean cylinders. The intake that Nathan built reminds me alot of the ones we generally use in the Hondas, Toyotas, Mitsus, etc. CFD has shown that the velocity stacks actually can have far less impact on a properly engineered manifold, but they do help regardless. The manifolds we normally use have some CFD and actual flowbench stuff (I realise its not Volvo specific) to help visualise this:

http://www.magnusmotorsports.com/intakemanifolds/dsm.htm

I dont want to violate any Vendor rules, but we do offer dyno services in Vancouver WA for those that want to throw their car on. $60 for 3 pulls or $100 an hour. It is AWD with selectable wheelbase and is one of a few that ties the front and rear rollers together with a physical link. Those of you that have some of the more sophisticated traction control that require the wheel speeds to match wont have any issues.

Congrats again Nathan, and I cant wait till you get some more tunable engine management so i can play with it :)

aaron

linuxman51

01-24-2010, 07:34 PM

there aren't really any vendor rules. This isn't EvoM, you won't be shot on sight ;)

JohnBradley

01-24-2010, 07:59 PM

there aren't really any vendor rules. This isn't EvoM, you won't be shot on sight ;)

You can tell I am a little gun shy? :lol:

The other thing that really makes this interesting in the results is the gains with such a relatively small turbo. In my normal playground as Linuxman can attest, we are used to GT30s and GT35s where something like this is worth 45whp bolting it on with nothing more than the retune. In my personal case I saw 45whp on my car (it was already 530whp) and more importantly I was able to do it at a little less boost and stack more timing in without running into knock. The increase in VE is nice that way, allowing more timing and better scavenging to keep detonation at bay.

I saw an earlier question about meth and this style of intake. That has been a concern in many different applications but one thing to consider is that as long as the methanol cant stagnate in the intake (i.e. a drip and then pool) it is vaporised pretty much instantly as it absorbs latent heat from the intake charge. SMIM are far more susceptible to nasty intake backfires (i.e. nitrous) than anything but that can be "tested" prior by a bench pressure test to some extent. The issue with that even is any intake will fail given a bad backfire, cast, fabbed, OE, etc.

Contact information-

Shop- 360.210.7484
questions and tech- sales@englishracing.net

linuxman51

01-24-2010, 08:14 PM

You can tell I am a little gun shy? :lol:

The other thing that really makes this interesting in the results is the gains with such a relatively small turbo. In my normal playground as Linuxman can attest, we are used to GT30s and GT35s where something like this is worth 45whp bolting it on with nothing more than the retune. In my personal case I saw 45whp on my car (it was already 530whp) and more importantly I was able to do it at a little less boost and stack more timing in without running into knock. The increase in VE is nice that way, allowing more timing and better scavenging to keep detonation at bay.

:lol:

the factory manifold is pretty awful, its not at all surprising that it made power up top (at least not to me). On the ones I designed a year or two ago we saw an increase of around 30% per runner without increasing runner size over stock (for the 8v application), but the really interesting thing we noticed when testing aggregate flow (through the throttle body and out all four runners simultaneously) was that the flow numbers did not go up appreciably from a single runner to all four being open, whereas with mine it was more of an additive affect. (30-40% difference in the runner, and like 200% or something across all four).

Its all fun stuff. I need to get an intake manifold for my evo, haven't decided which way to go yet.

Group A

01-24-2010, 09:16 PM

nathaninwa

01-24-2010, 09:55 PM

On the graph, the stock curves take a dip and you said this was a mis-fire, correct?

Wouldn't those curves have lost momentum with a mis-fire and possibly be closer or better than the SMIM?

Just trying to clarify.

I dont have an awnser for that....my motor has always had a little funky spot, didnt seem to lose power in the seat, but the graph shows a dip. I really dont know.

Aaron it was fun....im all stoked now to get a header and a turbo along with some exhaust. Ill start with my 16T and see how far i can take that

Ive been down in the garage getting the mill setup to drill out some base injector bungs. Ill finish up with those tomorrow and then drill the base, trumpets and plenum walls the rest of the week and hopefully start welding on Saturday on a couple more manifolds.

stylngle2003

01-25-2010, 12:01 AM

That dip looks the same way my car did when encountering knock. Only mine dipped twice (and twice as hard). Food for thought.

http://www.turbobricks.net/forums/showthread.php?t=124430

Hodginsa

01-25-2010, 12:09 AM

Another interesting thing is thats almost the exact spot in my RPM range where my knocksense goes off, and I can't seem to get rid of it. Its one solid BLIP of light I can't hear the knock, but the knocksense does it every time, no matter what I do with timing and fuel, it knocks there.

I doubt it has anything to do with this problem. But I just find it strange.

Captain Bondo

01-25-2010, 04:53 AM

http://i816.photobucket.com/albums/zz88/nathaninwa/VolvoNathanSMIMfinal.jpg

Is itr just me or does the pull with the stock manifold seem like a throwaway? Looks like it was well on its way to making more than the sheetmetal one and something screwed up?

I would have tried harder to get a clean pull with the stock intake, I'm not sure that pull is meaningful, honestly.:-(

nathaninwa

01-25-2010, 05:43 AM

We ran a few pulls in the begiinning to and it took a few to figure out how to keep the car from shifting down.....those made generally the same power. And 2 solid pulls with that dip. Thats what I got, and how my car ran.

Just thinking out loud......totally could be timing. You have to remeber the car was running in the 13 for afr's with 15psi on a tiny ass upgraded 13c with a 15g wheel on green top injectors
. I have alot working against me here. If there was no boost creep with my new SMI.....I could have kept the boost down at 10psi or so.

That graph is from swapping the intake and upping the fp on the new one to match the old one. Now I did not have an adjstable fpr for stock....so thats what I am stuck with.

linuxman51

01-25-2010, 05:46 AM

:-P the kickdown trick is documented in several places. unhook it from the throttle spool, pull it out just before you feel the 'bump' and vise grip it in place. keeps the line pressure up and it won't kick down.

nathaninwa

01-25-2010, 06:57 AM

we got it to not kickdown.....just took some figuring thats all.

klr142

01-25-2010, 07:15 AM

LH2.4 will likely learn to richen up a bit even in your current combination if you give it time to learn some. For what it's worth. It was used to running a stock manifold so it may improve some with the lean-ness up top, assuming the injectors aren't maxed out.

This 4krpm detonation that cars are hearing is interesting though.

nathaninwa

01-25-2010, 11:15 AM

im lloking to a laptop programmable ecu. lh is cool but 300 miles for the chips to auto tune and i drive like 15 miles aday....and most of that is cruise at 30mph. i dont have the cash to keep going back to the dyno and paying by the hour. so its a header...turbo and exhaust.....5 speed swap and new engine management.....then ill go back to the dyno to tune that. simply making timing changes can drastically effect hp.
Aaron has lots of graphs and he showed me where a 1 point in afr can make over a 10hp difference......so both stock and smi would have been up if the afrs were down.
and as said earlier.....lh was just done dyno running the stock intake.....maybe i should have put a 100 miles on it and restrapped it and at least given it a chance.....but it was already a long day tho.

JohnBradley

01-25-2010, 12:50 PM

The dip was either a misfire or some knock. We did hear some knock a one point so I am assuming that it was probably knock. Its hard to throw out any of the dynosheets since it could have just been an RPM pickup issue. I think the improvement in VE is why in the other graphs it doesnt seem to be as knock happy and it smooths out. Really the only thing that got "ruined" is the exact torque curve though that seems pretty easy to interpolate. Power was unaffected at peak and for most of the rev range though so it is pretty accurate.

The thing that would have been nice is if I had ECU control because I would have tuned each to a hairs breadth of the edge to really max out each combo. We are not afforded that luxury, but to put this into perspective on a 340whp car 1 full point dropped the power and torque 8hp and 8 ft lbs at the same boost level. Since these are offset each direction of where I'd liked to have seen them I think that part of the test is okay. It would equate to them each going up 8-10 whp which would have shown all the mods working together. As it is, it does show the manifold moving power to the right without sacrificing much if any low end.

The more mods the greater the percentage of improvement. This car with a larger turbo (16G and above) and an even larger cam should make even more power with the SMIM over a stocker.

aaron

linuxman51

01-25-2010, 12:58 PM

cylinder head work would do a lot to up the improvement as well, the stock volvo 8v heads do not flow very well.

BDKR

01-25-2010, 01:42 PM

http://i816.photobucket.com/albums/zz88/nathaninwa/Mobile%20Uploads/0102001315.jpg

http://i816.photobucket.com/albums/zz88/nathaninwa/Mobile%20Uploads/0102001316.jpg

http://i816.photobucket.com/albums/zz88/nathaninwa/Mobile%20Uploads/0102001319.jpg

Pure Sex!!!!!!!

89740GLT

01-25-2010, 02:14 PM

"...so its a header...turbo and exhaust.....5 speed swap and new engine management.....then ill go back to the dyno to tune that..."

Any plans to install an aftermarket intercooler?

nathaninwa

01-25-2010, 02:55 PM

yep...have a 12X24 in the shop......also have a walbro 255 pump to install with my 55 delphis. im need to get a few manifolds built then ill start the header.

Dammit

01-25-2010, 03:16 PM

Another comment to cement my reputation: on the 5 cyl the bolt pattern is different between the P1 (4.3/4.4) and P2 (ME7), however the P2/ME7 flow better.

The big issue with the P2's is the electronic throttle, if that were to be cable actuated then a direct swap would be extremely easy.

That is to say a direct swap to a car with Turbo Tuner EMS.

So- it would be great if you could offer this intake for the 5 Cyl, but more than that it would be good to know that you could translate an ME7 intake into an 4.3/4.4 compatible engine.

I would imagine that this would sell very well on VS given the current "What cylinder head" thread.

Group A

01-25-2010, 04:17 PM

Captain Bondo

01-25-2010, 04:32 PM

Agreed. N and RN motors use the same manifold bolt patterns. Only RNC are different which are only a late V50/S40/C30 thing IIRC.

Erland Cox

02-08-2010, 10:57 PM

Where there any calculations done on the length of the manifold runners? Do the runners taper or are they straight? What rpm span is it made for? Erland.

nathaninwa

02-08-2010, 11:32 PM

Was there any calculations done on the length of the manifold runners? Do the runners taper or are they straight? What rpm span is it made for? Erland.

Runner length came from overall fitment of the plenum in the engine bay....had restrictions and needed to work with them.

The plan was to taper the runners in the beginning if I could have kept them straight, I even welded some together with some varying tapers....but once I had to put a bend it them, way to much work to get them tapered like that for a production style manifold.

And no real specific rpm range.....I do alum for a living and have built some custom fitted sheetmetal intakes, and once i got my volvo i knew I had to build for it too......just worked out where poeple wanted them too.....so over alot of debate back and forth, we let the dyno do the talking......and over all we gained 500 or so rpm, more over all HP and a relief to me, no tourque was lost.

All that was on a stock 530 head.

Do you have any suggestions for me to try?

Erland Cox

02-09-2010, 01:04 AM

I am curious to why there was a drop in power at 4000 something rpm with the stock manifold. There was some mentioning of detonation and the ECU retarding the spark?
If this is true there was higher VE with the stock manifold that was masked by detonation and retarded spark. If maximum power is set at 5500 like this test you should try a manifold with longer runners, something like 14,7 inches from the valve to the plenum. The intake runner in the head is approximately 4.5 inches long so the manifold runners should be 10.2 inches. This is for a camshaft with 230 degrees at .050" and max power below 5500 rpm. For 6000 rpm the length is closer to 9 inches which is about the length of the 240 K jet manifold. More duration gives longer runners and shorter duration gives shorter runners. Runner size also has an impact on length, Larger cross sectional area tunes at a higher rpm and smaller area at a lower rpm because the waves in the manifold have to go out against the flow during valve open. Time lost going out cannot be regained going in. Manifold length is important even on a boosted engine. If the pressure at the valve rises with 2 psi at valve closure on an N/A engine it will rise 4 psi with 14.7 psi of boost. It is always good to have some taper in the runners but i understand that it is difficult to achieve with bent round tubing.

Here is a simple formula for calculating tuned intake length, valve to plenum:

Total intake length = ((720 - ECD ) x 0.25V x 2 ) / (RPM x RV)) - 0.5D.

ECD = Advertised duration - 30 degrees.
V = Speed of sound ft / sec. App. 1115 ft / sec.
RV = Reflected value, if you want to tune to the second or third pulse 2 or 3.
3rd pulse is applicable under 10000 rpm because the 2nd pulse will make a very long runner.
D = The plenum end of the runners diameter in inches.

The calculations i did above are made with Pipemax and the formula is from one of David Vizards books. The length is always an approximation but a calculation brings you closer than just guessing. Erland.

Erland Cox

02-09-2010, 01:08 AM

Besides, I wish my welding looked as good as yours. Erland.

thelostartof

02-09-2010, 01:11 AM

Get fueling figured out correct and retest, with proper AFR's the new manifold should of been much better

nathaninwa

02-09-2010, 02:21 AM

Mike is right, fueling needs more attention and the manifold was not the first real step that should have been taken, but I like the bling factor of it, so I made it a priorty. Injectors, lots more exhaust, a fuel pump and IC are really whats needed. Im working on the fueling side, stuffed my 55lb delphis back in and im hitting 10.5 in the wideband. Im really close to having new management.

Do you have any plenum thoughts Erland? I might be able to rework the intake runners and have a radiused plenum but square to the runners style to keep the tb in a good spot. The plenum is the unkown things, big or small?

And thankyou on the welding.

WeezilUSA

02-09-2010, 03:13 AM

I was under the general impression that plenum size should be 1.5 x the displacement of the motor.

thelostartof

02-09-2010, 09:50 AM

I would think setup the car so it runs 10.5:1 and then do a few more mods to use that extra fuel until it starts to lean out.

Larger turbo, maybe a header, and then check the gains with stock over new

klr142

02-09-2010, 10:49 AM

ECD = Advertised duration - 30 degrees.The question that keeps popping up is at what lift is considered "Advertised duration"? Thanks!

pwschuh

02-09-2010, 11:02 AM

Erland, thanks for joining up and it's good to see you on here.

klr142

02-09-2010, 12:00 PM

Erland, thanks for joining up and it's good to see you on here.Seconded!:cheers:

Erland Cox

02-09-2010, 01:22 PM

Advertised duration is like a competition cams 280 cam, it is 230 degrees at .050". advertised is 280 degrees. I think advertised is SAE duration, at .002" of lifter lift. A Chevy has a rocker with a ratio so duration at the valve will be greater with the same cam duration and that is also something to think about and that messes calculations created for Chevy's up.
Plenum should be relatively big but not to big with a single throttle body. The most important ting here is to slow the air down so it can turn into each cylinder, the plenum looks good.
With single throttle bodies the volume could be 10 times the cylinder displacement or whatever fits. By adjusting the length on the intake tube to the plenum you can fill in torque dips. The plenum acts like a Helmholtz resonator. Both on single and individual throttle bodies. Erland.

Yea, Right

02-10-2010, 11:26 PM

I am very interested to see if the dip I have that I was unable to tune out is corrected with a proper manifold. As soon as I can get the motor reinstalled we will be measuring for a new intake.

Captain Bondo

02-11-2010, 06:36 AM

Dip seems to be the result of that rich spot eh? You mean you couldn't lean it out there?

linuxman51

02-11-2010, 09:11 AM

probably not, I suspect the SDS wouldn't let him :-P :-D

Yea, Right

02-11-2010, 04:02 PM

probably not, I suspect the SDS wouldn't let him :-P :-D

Good one Kenny err :-P

No amount of tuning made a difference there. We suspect a resonance at that rpm in the intake.

linuxman51

02-11-2010, 04:11 PM

Good one Kenny err :-P

No amount of tuning made a difference there. We suspect a resonance at that rpm in the intake.

I don't recall that being an issue with sam's car, do you think that the combination of headwork and cam (as well as exhaust manifold) might be causing/exacerbating it?

I hate drop offs that won't tune out, I had one on my NA 16v, AFR was perfect, torque shot up to about 125-130 then dropped back down to 125 for about 1500 rpms, and then motored on up to the peak of 140 or something like that. No amount of timing, or fudging with the fuel would do anything.

nathaninwa

02-11-2010, 05:39 PM

so here is a good new start to this thread.......i am going to a 16v head so that means new tooling for a 16v intake. im going to keep the design the same, just building a bender to get the oval tubing bent a little. i still need to verify port size with the tube i found but prelim bending looks promising to have it look just like my 8v. im finding this a little easier than trying to blend from round to oval in such a short runner area after the bend to the base plate. keep posted for updates.

L8 APEKS

02-11-2010, 06:17 PM

Is itr just me or does the pull with the stock manifold seem like a throwaway? Looks like it was well on its way to making more than the sheetmetal one and something screwed up?

I would have tried harder to get a clean pull with the stock intake, I'm not sure that pull is meaningful, honestly.:-(

I was wondering about the same thing. Hard to tell what's really happening, but the dyno shops I've worked with pretty much always consider a pull with a dip that bad a "throw away" pull...it's not telling the full story because something went amiss.

Yea, Right

02-11-2010, 06:27 PM

I think the head seriously out flows the intake. Erland built this one for me two years ago from a 531.

towerymt

02-11-2010, 10:18 PM

I am very interested to see if the dip I have that I was unable to tune out is corrected with a proper manifold. As soon as I can get the motor reinstalled we will be measuring for a new intake.
Which improper manifold/throttle body was used during that pull?

Yea, Right

02-12-2010, 12:20 AM

Which improper manifold/throttle body was used during that pull?

Stock B230 manifold with puny MVP throttle body.

Hodginsa

02-12-2010, 12:56 AM

Maybe all your timing belts are stretching at peak torque, retarding the cam.

klr142

02-12-2010, 01:34 AM

with puny MVP throttle body.Well, that takes care of my throttle body issue(for now), now I just need to get to porting the extra b230 manifold. Are you planning on using your current setup to break the motor in or going with the custom manifold? :-P
Maybe all your timing belts are stretching at peak torque, retarding the cam.He's waiting on his Kevlar belt before re-assembly, so we'll see... :lol:

nathaninwa

02-12-2010, 02:22 AM

I kinda got lost here.....I wonder if my hicup is from an untuned lh, since it only had about 50 miles of intown driving....and I think one thing to remember..these cars were never designed to be tuner cars....there very tolerant for being a soccer mom grocery getter. Im sure the Swedish engineers never imagined what were doing with them today would be what it is 20 years ago.

And my dyno chart and it being thrown away....the stumble is almost always there, we graphed 2 pulls with it, and i was the one footin dyno bill with the intake swap in the middle there

MeAtwagon

02-12-2010, 09:50 AM

intake manis are harder to build and build with success than alot of things. your setup is mild. that manifold is aggressive and will work much better on a higher flowing setup. **** im surprised that weenie turbo u are running even fills the plenum. your work looks good. get one in the hands of someone with a car that scoots and then youll recieve your real results.

klr142

02-12-2010, 10:56 AM

Speaking of which, didn't you send another one off to someone else for testing on a higher hp setup?

thelostartof

02-12-2010, 11:53 AM

I would be more than willing to test it if you wanted to see what it does on a 300whp car haha, of course I would send it back after the dyno as I do really like my intake that we built

maxman142001

02-12-2010, 12:53 PM

I would be more than willing to test it if you wanted to see what it does on a 300whp car haha, of course I would send it back after the dyno as I do really like my intake that we built

ill let you borrow mine:oogle:

thelostartof

02-12-2010, 01:01 PM

We havn't even finished building yours last I checked,

or wait your what?

nathaninwa

02-12-2010, 01:16 PM

oh i have new motor plans now....give me about 3 months and ill have a new product to dyno.

i may take you up on your offer mike.....at least your car is in tune and makes 100 more horse than mine!

as far as the dyno manifold....that fell through with time retraints and bills on my end. we have another deal going on when the weather gets nicer.....details still need figured out. that manifold should be hittin souther cali today and hell be doing an install write up about it and give me some third party install details.

im surprised my setup made as power as it did......i was thinking more in the 170 range....but it does have the ipd turbo cam and they claim 25hp on there site.

L8 APEKS

02-12-2010, 01:19 PM

...and I think one thing to remember..these cars were never designed to be tuner cars...

And Honda Civics were?! :-P

klr142

02-12-2010, 01:20 PM

as far as the dyno manifold....that fell through with time retraints and bills on my end. we have another deal going on when the weather gets nicer.....details still need figured out. that manifold should be hittin souther cali today and hell be doing an install write up about it and give me some third party install details.

im surprised my setup made as power as it did......i was thinking more in the 170 range....but it does have the ipd turbo cam and they claim 25hp on there site.Nice. :)

Regarding the power, it's all about where the car makes power, the IPD cam moves the powerband up, so even though the car may not have that much more torque, the horsepower increases are decent because of the curve being moved higher in the rpm range.

str8krewzn

02-12-2010, 08:52 PM

Well not sure if this helps or not but just to put in my setup with stock intake also had the dip with stock intake around same rpm...

http://www.pbase.com/str8krewzn/image/119087082.jpg

nathaninwa

02-19-2010, 10:15 PM

I got my intake gasekt and working on a jig for the new 16V head, did some tinkering today waiting for the head to show up.....this is what I came up with for a 16v intake runner. Im hoping I can use the 8v plenums for this project.

http://i816.photobucket.com/albums/zz88/nathaninwa/Mobile%20Uploads/0219001809.jpg

maxman142001

02-19-2010, 10:20 PM

nice!

alexm963

02-19-2010, 10:59 PM

Oh my, IT HAS BEGUN. I need to get to the junkyard and get a block and 16v soon.

DagazEnterprise

02-19-2010, 11:51 PM

purdy welds

B-Rod

02-20-2010, 12:05 AM

Apple is my favourite!

I'm jealous of your welds

nathaninwa

02-20-2010, 12:28 AM

I have been welding for a long time, and I do it daily as my job. My head will ship next week and Ill fine tune my base jig to clear the coolant temp sensors...and measure out for runner length and clearance to the brake booster.

blkaplan

02-20-2010, 01:32 AM

I checked back to my dyno. Car has stock manifolds, 19T, 531 head, and MSNS...

it has a slight dip @ 4k

http://www.pbase.com/blkaplan/image/113974843.jpg

dieselboy

02-20-2010, 02:06 AM

<--- waiting for 16v manifold design. I need to get something for my car.

nathaninwa

02-20-2010, 02:10 AM

Well, you wont have to wait long....maybe 6 weeks. I have 2 8v intakes to build along with this design......its not that long and Ill have something.

Captain Bondo

02-20-2010, 03:25 AM

Looking good - lots of effort doing the multi-piece ben runners, kudos! Any shots of the inside of the runners?

thelostartof

02-20-2010, 03:35 AM

I see no real dip

http://thelostartof.net/dyno_6047.JPG

str8krewzn

02-20-2010, 12:49 PM

Lookin nice!!

blkaplan

02-20-2010, 01:00 PM

I see no real dip

I do, except it never makes more torque after 4k so its not a 2 sided dip just a 1 sided dip.

klr142

02-20-2010, 01:05 PM

It looks like you would've made more peak HP Mike if you revved it up a little bit further. :)

Volvo Heretic

02-20-2010, 01:17 PM

Nathaninwa, looks like if you used a wedged shaped piece of filler metal, you would be half way to having a tapered runner, then might as well cut that in half along the bend axis and fill with a curved pie shaped piece as well.:nod:

nathaninwa

02-20-2010, 02:08 PM

lol....not sure about the up and down taper but i am workin on the side to side taper.....that was a test runner......if a taper one is made the top taper and bottom tapers are different so its more templates.....but could be worth it.

L8 APEKS

02-20-2010, 03:05 PM

It looks like you would've made more peak HP Mike if you revved it up a little bit further. :)

Yeah, true. Great numbers though! Damn!

thelostartof

02-20-2010, 03:10 PM

It looks like you would've made more peak HP Mike if you revved it up a little bit further. :)

Yeah, true. Great numbers though! Damn!

That is what I told the guy but he was only comfortable taking it up to 6300rpm or so when I wanted him to run it out to the 6800 limiter and hit it, I was more than ok with that. Oh well, still nice to see that it is making power way up there

maxman142001

02-20-2010, 03:17 PM

let me know the next time you go to the dyno with the white car...ill bring my intake and we can do back to back and see gains

thelostartof

02-20-2010, 03:21 PM

Why not just dyno your car now and then put intake on and dyno a few weeks later?

maxman142001

02-20-2010, 03:23 PM

well the intake is not going on until the getrag is under the car..then the dyno runs will come in to see how much power LH can make..probly gonna run out of turbo soon and a GT35r might be in order. but i wanna push the turbo/LH/intake as far as they will go before ungrades happen

thelostartof

02-20-2010, 03:27 PM

well we know LH and the stock intake have done 400whp so why not just upgrade now and see the gains that those parts get you over what you have now

maxman142001

02-20-2010, 03:33 PM

we'll see..intake should be here Wed/Thursday..ill see what i want to do when it gets here

thelostartof

02-20-2010, 03:38 PM

I am telling you, no thinking needed here, Dyno the car now as it sits, running, swap intake and then redyno, When you get the getrag stuff do that and then redyno to see whp gain between the two

nathaninwa

02-20-2010, 04:00 PM

I believe your defeating LH by swapping and expect it to know the new VE without any learn time. I made power, but if LH is constatly learning wot, then it should be given a week of driving to break it in, and then redyno. Kind of deeats the overall point if there is 15hp still in the system after it learns new timing and fuel parameters.

Hence my new top secret project....hehe

maxman142001

02-20-2010, 04:32 PM

I am telling you, no thinking needed here, Dyno the car now as it sits, running, swap intake and then redyno, When you get the getrag stuff do that and then redyno to see whp gain between the two

yeah i really want to get the AW re sealed so i dont leave spots of tranny fluid..if we could get this done in a day i will hit the dyno sooner than later

thelostartof

02-20-2010, 06:35 PM

If you have a pair of jackstands, a jack, and a wrench set you can do it in 4-6 hours by yourself, I have done it more than a few times like that in less time

L8 APEKS

02-20-2010, 06:45 PM

well we know LH and the stock intake have done 400whp so why not just upgrade now and see the gains that those parts get you over what you have now

...and yet people still recommend going to stand alone for people saying their goal is 200-250 crank HP. :lol:

L8 APEKS

02-20-2010, 06:47 PM

yeah i really want to get the AW re sealed so i dont leave spots of tranny fluid..if we could get this done in a day i will hit the dyno sooner than later

Had dropped, installed, dropped again, and installed again in about 8 hours with a friend's help. It's a little time consuming, but there's really not all that much to it.

klr142

02-20-2010, 10:34 PM

That is what I told the guy but he was only comfortable taking it up to 6300rpm or so when I wanted him to run it out to the 6800 limiter and hit it, I was more than ok with that. Oh well, still nice to see that it is making power way up thereAh, and yeah, definitely nice to see power up top. Now, if only my POS would make power up top! :pow::censored:
hit the dyno sooner than laterHit that ****!
people still recommend going to stand alone for people saying their goal is 200-250 crank HP. :lol:No they don't.

L8 APEKS

02-20-2010, 10:35 PM

I've seen it in 2 recent threads, within the last 4-5 weeks, explicitly recommended because "LH is crap". So...yes...they do. ;)

maxman142001

02-20-2010, 10:41 PM

If you have a pair of jackstands, a jack, and a wrench set you can do it in 4-6 hours by yourself, I have done it more than a few times like that in less time

yeah and being that it is not my primary mode of transportation i can work on it over the course of a weekend/week

looks like my next project :)

klr142

02-20-2010, 10:45 PM

I've seen it in 2 recent threads, within the last 4-5 weeks, explicitly recommended because "LH is crap". So...yes...they do. ;)Wow. Are they people who are keyboard nazi/noobs or people who actually know what they're talking about?

L8 APEKS

02-20-2010, 11:18 PM

Clearly the former. lol! A couple popular board members bashed me for sticking up for LH2.4 versus MS for a newbie who was looking for 200-250 crank.

I couldn't believe the sheeple flocking toward MS. It was pretty ridiculous. I mean, sure, MS is great and all...when you get to the point when you can really take advantage of it. Up until that point, it's an unnecessary cost and a hindrance to setup IMHO. 200-250chp is nowhere NEAR getting to that point!

My 940 ran wonderfully with around ~240whp (~275 crank?) on LH2.4. Still had plenty more headroom. I'll be gunning for 300+whp in the 244 w/ LH2.4.

klr142

02-20-2010, 11:29 PM

If well tuned, MS will make more power at all rpms, have better driveability and get better gas mileage than LH2.4 in any situation, no matter if the car is completely stock or has a huge turbo. That being said, there is no reason to add that level of complexity when someone can simply cut off their exhaust and turn up the boost to get to over 200 crank hp...

nathaninwa

02-20-2010, 11:45 PM

Ah, and yeah, definitely nice to see power up top. Now, if only my POS would make power up top! :pow::censored:

You know....I have a couple options for you here to fix that. I have a 531 ill be selling soon, needs #4 welded up. And once the 16v goes on ill have the IPD turbo cam in my car now for sale along with the adjustable ca gear.....hhmmmm now youll be able to make powa up top!

klr142

02-20-2010, 11:49 PM

The 531 flows worse than my current head and the IPD Turbo cam is less aggressive than my current cam as well, :lol:.
http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=57077&page=17

nathaninwa

02-21-2010, 01:09 AM

I see you have an NA setup, motor sounds really nice. Maybe you need an intake.....I have one I am building, and can use a little thinner material for the plenum too.

linuxman51

02-21-2010, 01:19 AM

dieselboy

02-21-2010, 01:39 AM

I like having lh for my daily driver because of the "reliability" but my "project" has megasquirt. My wagon made great power on it but I'm sure it would of had another 50+ hp on ms.

L8 APEKS

02-21-2010, 04:57 AM

is that like the sheeple flocking to 'big' td04's?

Perhaps. But a bigger direct bolt-on option, there is not. Same water lines, oil lines, outlet and housings. ;-)

J2_

02-21-2010, 08:35 AM

Well, you wont have to wait long....maybe 6 weeks. I have 2 8v intakes to build along with this design......its not that long and Ill have something.

Can't wait for an 8V one :)

linuxman51

02-21-2010, 10:57 AM

Perhaps. But a bigger direct bolt-on option, there is not. Same water lines, oil lines, outlet and housings. ;-)

there's any number of t3 backed turbos that can use the volvo t3 turbine housing, and since all of the bearing cartridges are garret, all of those oil and coolant lines interchange as well..

linuxman51

02-21-2010, 11:00 AM

I like having lh for my daily driver because of the "reliability" but my "project" has megasquirt. My wagon made great power on it but I'm sure it would of had another 50+ hp on ms.

everything is as reliable as you make it. giving up 17+ % power because of some perceived notion of reliability... well, its a personal choice, but you'da had a better argument if you'd said "I just didn't want to fool with tuning it" ;) (which is perfectly fine)

davidmacq

02-21-2010, 02:43 PM

It's saying a lot to say "MS well tuned" when you have never tuned it or used it at all before. Sort of like saying Linux is an excellent OS...yea for some people.

nathaninwa

02-21-2010, 03:24 PM

J2, empty your pm box

I have experience with MS from V1.1 where ms was a groupbuy with 50 people buy in through email only through the initial run of MS2 V3.0. MS is very documented and the complicated part is the assembly of the assembly of the board if you go that route, and stringing the engine harness. Megatune is easy to navigate through and you should be driving quickly, especialy with the P+P that Kenny sells.

Any tunable system should be tuned on the Dyno anyways, so find a shop with MS experience or find a local and take him with you. Then you can have a Dyno tuned setup within a reasonable amount of money.

And having the ability to tune is great, you can try little things, and having a wideband to back it up, you can see the changes instantly, plus its fun to fiddle with.

MS is very solid, I still have a standrail that is running V1.1 from like 8 or so years ago. The only ever problems I have had is running to small injector and running 100+ percent duty cycle and taking out the injector driver, and once not having positive tight on the alternator and i did a wot 6500 run in my rail and took out the injector driver again. All that was my issue, not MS problems.

Plus, if I had something tunable at the Dyno, there would have been a different outcome I believe trying to do back to back dyno runs on LH.

Im doing a 16V motor now, maybe Ill borrow a intake adapter and test the manifolds again.

J2_

02-21-2010, 04:04 PM

PM box emptied...

linuxman51

02-21-2010, 08:52 PM

It's saying a lot to say "MS well tuned" when you have never tuned it or used it at all before. Sort of like saying Linux is an excellent OS...yea for some people.

No doubt. some people like not knowing what's going on too.. they'd rather just be handed something so they can go tell their boys about it.

maxman142001

02-24-2010, 09:20 PM

:oogle::nod::cool::omg::hyper::spin::boink::dance: :w00t::badboy::twisted::zeeall::drool::neener:

UPS guy dropped something good off!!!

ps who else is getting one?

Tom Wiley

02-24-2010, 09:28 PM

nathaninwa

02-24-2010, 09:49 PM

:oogle::nod::cool::omg::hyper::spin::boink::dance: :w00t::badboy::twisted::zeeall::drool::neener:

UPS guy dropped something good off!!!

ps who else is getting one?

Glad to hear that your happy....I know youll have this on in no time, getrag or not!

There are 3 manifolds out there plus mine. And I am currently working on 4 more before I get get busy on my own 16v project for about 2 months, then I should be tooled up to do 8v and 16v intakes.

MeAtwagon

02-24-2010, 10:08 PM

nice nice. cant wait to show some of my current work off as well.

i heart good solid fab

Coupe' de Grace

02-24-2010, 11:07 PM

:oogle::nod::cool::omg::hyper::spin::boink::dance: :w00t::badboy::twisted::zeeall::drool::neener:

UPS guy dropped something good off!!!

ps who else is getting one?

:ninja: :ahoy: :ninja:

linuxman51

02-24-2010, 11:22 PM

DId you ever dyno the wagon? I thought it was a 15g with chips and exhaust.

lol no, he didn't.

noah244ti

02-25-2010, 01:01 AM

:ninja: :ahoy: :ninja: +1 ;)

maxman142001

02-28-2010, 05:44 PM

bling bling
http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n232/maxman142001/SANY0740.jpg
http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n232/maxman142001/SANY0739.jpg
http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n232/maxman142001/SANY0746.jpg
http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n232/maxman142001/SANY0749.jpg

Tom Wiley

02-28-2010, 05:53 PM

lol no, he didn't.

huh

J2_

02-28-2010, 05:58 PM

I can't wait to get mine :-D

nathaninwa

02-28-2010, 10:16 PM

I can't wait to get mine :-D

Well there on track.....kinda. Just a little behind my schedule, but the wife took me shopping to Ikea yesterday and guess who is getting to put all them boxes together! Heres a pic of today and where I am at. Not pictured are all the runners....and I did get 2 of my 16v intake flanges cut. Man was there ton of alum shavings in the shop today:omg:

http://i816.photobucket.com/albums/zz88/nathaninwa/Mobile%20Uploads/0228001744.jpg

http://i816.photobucket.com/albums/zz88/nathaninwa/Mobile%20Uploads/0228001757.jpg

Jerd

02-28-2010, 10:39 PM

So sexy! they look great!

MeAtwagon

02-28-2010, 10:52 PM

your firing me up to make of of these for my car.

L8 APEKS

03-01-2010, 03:04 AM

I got to see one of these in person today...I must say, it's b-e-a-utiful!

str8krewzn

03-01-2010, 04:21 AM

hottness very excited

nathaninwa

03-15-2010, 10:04 PM

Well...workin on the 16v intake runners....have the base plate cut...runners tapered and almost welded....need to get it all mocked up and test fit my plenum. The 16v intake runners in the head are so nice I decided to start with a straight runnered intake and go from there. I got with Aaron from English and we tuned the runner length for about a 6800 rpm peak power point.

http://i816.photobucket.com/albums/zz88/nathaninwa/Mobile%20Uploads/downsized_0315001739.jpg

And a shot of my collector for the header

http://i816.photobucket.com/albums/zz88/nathaninwa/Mobile%20Uploads/0315001744.jpg

klr142

03-15-2010, 10:14 PM

tuned the runner length for about a 6800 rpm peak power point.That's what I need for my car. And an exhaust manifold to match...

nathaninwa

03-15-2010, 10:15 PM

My plan is to have the motor in really soon, and Dyno at English the same day as IPD's garage sale May 15. I hope it all works together.

sb765t

03-15-2010, 10:17 PM

Sweet Nathan!! Can't wait to get my intake...

Kenny??? You ready for me to come down and tune the old-girl again? Outta be fun. I throw in a fresh AW-71 for you...since this one's complaining a little...

nathaninwa

03-15-2010, 10:26 PM

Speaking of your intake....i have the iac cover plate cut...and the base for the tb trimmed out.....This weekend Ill get it mocked up for the throttle......

linuxman51

03-16-2010, 10:49 AM

bring it.

nathaninwa

03-21-2010, 06:49 PM

WOW....just did 4 of these at once.....man will i not do that again! But the group is all done and will ship this week. I wanted to post a one off manifold for you guys.

sb765t got a hold of me about mounting a rather larger than my plenum TB....after a few emails we decided to run a 75mm unit for a Mustang. So he drop shipped me a TB from summit and I pulled a lil SODO MOJO outa my hat and today got it all working. I really like the tb style and am working on making the IAC delete plate a little more sexy.....ss bolts that are counterbored.

Just a post so you guys can see what can be done.

Thanks Evin for the oppurtunity to make this all work.

Im taking a break now from the 8V builds so I can develop my 16v manifold and also build my 16v motor. PM me if your interested.....Ill be about 10 weeks from another set.

http://i816.photobucket.com/albums/zz88/nathaninwa/Mobile%20Uploads/0321001201.jpg