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View Full Version : Feeler for mfg of special lock washer


dbarton
03-16-2011, 08:46 PM
I'm looking for feedback on this.

It's a special lock washer I'm considering having made to solve exhaust manifold nuts from vibrating loose. It uses bent tabs and safety wire and it designed for 8mm nuts (12 or 13 mm hex) without a flange.

I've owned a number of redblock Volvos and one common issue is these nuts vibrating loose. For years I have spent extra money of the fancy copper lock nuts and after finding a missing nut and stud last year, I bought some fancy and expensive Nord-Lock serrated washers. But I'm still finding nuts coming loose.

I have discussed having a quantity made with a few washer stamping companies. Materials recommended by them have been heat-treated steel with plating or stainless with thickness recommendations of 0.020" to 0.036". The costs of tooling and stamping would make the final cost of these about $1 each.

Here's the concept...

blkaplan
03-16-2011, 09:02 PM
have you looked at these guys?

http://www.stage8.com/

dbarton
03-16-2011, 09:30 PM
http://www.stage8.com/images/otherkitshort.jpg

I've seen the bolt kits before. Didn't know they have 8mm nuts too. Not perfect, but doable if you don't mind drilling them for safety wire. I don't think they would work without it. Wonder about the price.

I sent a quote request to one of their distributors.

towerymt
03-16-2011, 09:32 PM
Doesn't look like safety wire is needed. The circlip keeps the nut on and the tear drop is a mechanical lock as long as it can rest against something that won't move.

Fivehundred
03-16-2011, 09:34 PM
You seem to have reinvented the tab washer. It ought to be readily available commercially. Aircraft use them. Personally I don't like tab washers, they are soft and fairly useless at actually preventing stuff from coming loose.

Wouldn't it be easier to source a slightly longer stud and use a second locking nut, or even drill the stud and use a castellated nut and a split pin? You could also buy a simple jig to drill the corner of the nut and safety wire it directly.

I'm inclined though to think you have some other issue, I've not personally had any problems with the studs or nuts coming loose.

dbarton
03-16-2011, 09:37 PM
You seem to have reinvented the tab washer. It ought to be readily available commercially. Aircraft use them. Personally I don't like tab washers, they are soft and fairly useless at actually preventing stuff from coming loose.

Wouldn't it be easier to source a slightly longer stud and use a second locking nut, or even drill the stud and use a castellated nut and a split pin? You could also buy a simple jig to drill the corner of the nut and safety wire it directly.

I'm inclined though to think you have some other issue, I've not personally had any problems with the studs or nuts coming loose.


This does nothing when the stud begins to spin out of the head.

blkaplan
03-16-2011, 09:38 PM
The stage 8 stuff doesn't use or need safety wire... Safety wire is a PIA and I will do anything to avoid having to use it.

dbarton
03-16-2011, 09:41 PM
Doesn't look like safety wire is needed. The circlip keeps the nut on and the tear drop is a mechanical lock as long as it can rest against something that won't move.

Assuming that tear drop is long enough. Might not be on a 90 plus. Would have to try it to see.

varg
03-16-2011, 09:43 PM
Hightemp threadlocker on the studs and double nuts holding the manifold on. Always worked for me.

dbarton
03-16-2011, 09:44 PM
I'm inclined though to think you have some other issue, I've not personally had any problems with the studs or nuts coming loose.

Maybe yours is rusted tight. I live in the land of no rust and it's more common here.

dbarton
03-16-2011, 09:49 PM
have you looked at these guys?

http://www.stage8.com/

Summit and Jegs both carry their bolt kits, but not nut kits. 8 piece bolt kit goes for $37, so that should indicate the approx cost for their 8mm nuts.

Edit: Then again, I just found an online seller who want nearly $10 for each nut (with lock)!!!

ryan242v
03-16-2011, 09:57 PM
I live in the rust land and my exhaust nuts are rusted as hell and will walk off after time. Ironically when I want to remove the nuts they won't move and will pull out studs. But, on their own, the nuts will vibrate off.


dbarton: you need to Loctite your studs in. Make sure the stud hole is clean and your able to get the stud in at appropriate height and Loctite it in. Common issue on old aircooled Porsche engines. Case studs, cylinder studs and exhaust and intake studs will come off from time to time. We just Loctite the stud in at appropriate height. I use the heavy duty stuff.

dbarton
03-16-2011, 10:08 PM
Loctite offers threadlocker for up to 350 deg C.

If you ever need to remove that stud later, I would think you might be in trouble.

Alex Buchka
03-16-2011, 10:25 PM
If you ever need to remove a bolt or stud attached with high temp threadlocker heat the stud red hot and give it some taps with a hammer. That will make it fairly easy to remove.

Roger-Dee
03-16-2011, 10:49 PM
Why not a mix of the two? A teardrop style that goes under the bolt, no wire.

towerymt
03-16-2011, 11:23 PM
Could buy the ARP stainless stud & nut kit (about $45 when I bought it I think), drill the tip of each stud, safety wire the studs together. After a few heat cycles and once the new exh. manifold gaskets are compressed, I have not had issues with the nuts loosening (except the one that fell off, might have been after a reassembly and I missed torquing/retorquing). The tip of the stud is smooth and has a small allen head hex for installation of the stud. I've been using them since '06 I think. Stainles, so no rust. And no loctite. They stay put with the flat washers that were provided. :e-shrug:

aplitz
03-16-2011, 11:29 PM
What about Percy's Split Locks?

http://www.percyshp.com/store/bolts-fasteners/stainless-steel-fasteners/cat_412.html

I was considering them for my new header, looks like it might work quite well.

dbarton
03-16-2011, 11:31 PM
Why not a mix of the two? A teardrop style that goes under the bolt, no wire.

You mean with a tab?

I like the concept of the Stage 8 kit, because it is reusable and reliable as long as the c-clip stays on. I agree that a bent tab concept is less desirable because bending tabs can be a pain, plus re-using has limits.

dbarton
03-16-2011, 11:36 PM
What about Percy's Split Locks?

http://www.percyshp.com/store/bolts-fasteners/stainless-steel-fasteners/cat_412.html

I was considering them for my new header, looks like it might work quite well.

Looks like a bolt to me. We use studs and I think it's best to stay with them as long as out heads are aluminum.

dbarton
03-16-2011, 11:40 PM
Could buy the ARP stainless stud & nut kit (about $45 when I bought it I think), drill the tip of each stud, safety wire the studs together. After a few heat cycles and once the new exh. manifold gaskets are compressed, I have not had issues with the nuts loosening (except the one that fell off, might have been after a reassembly and I missed torquing/retorquing). The tip of the stud is smooth and has a small allen head hex for installation of the stud. I've been using them since '06 I think. Stainles, so no rust. And no loctite. They stay put with the flat washers that were provided. :e-shrug:

https://www.maperformance.com/image.php?type=T&id=21515&ts=1249582761

Are yours drilled? Aside from that, I see no reason why these are better than OEM for vibrating loose specifically. If drilling is the answer, we can drill our OEM studs.

Karl Buchka
03-16-2011, 11:41 PM
Looks like a bolt to me. We use studs and I think it's best to stay with them as long as out heads are aluminum.

So helicoil them and use bolts?

blkaplan
03-16-2011, 11:42 PM
What about Percy's Split Locks?

http://www.percyshp.com/store/bolts-fasteners/stainless-steel-fasteners/cat_412.html

I was considering them for my new header, looks like it might work quite well.

Looks like a bolt to me. We use studs and I think it's best to stay with them as long as out heads are aluminum.


Paul Schuh uses those on his header and they work really well.

aplitz
03-16-2011, 11:43 PM
Looks like a bolt to me. We use studs and I think it's best to stay with them as long as out heads are aluminum.

Yeah, its a bolt, but is designed for use with aluminum heads as long as you use anti-seize. I think I'm going to give them a go.

dbarton
03-17-2011, 12:15 AM
Paul Schuh uses those on his header and they work really well.


You mean he actually drives it?

Captain Bondo
03-17-2011, 01:07 AM
In my 3 years as a volvo mechanic, and literally over a hundred manifolds done, not including my own over the past 10 years or numerous custom manifolds, I have never, ever, had one single case of the manifold nuts loosening off. Ever.

Use new volvo stover nuts, volvo manifold gaskets (elring aren't the same) and the thick cupped spring washers.

WindowsBreakerG4
03-17-2011, 01:27 AM
Loctite offers threadlocker for up to 350 deg C.

If you ever need to remove that stud later, I would think you might be in trouble.

Res Bond is good to 3000 C I'll see if andrew at track speed can put a kit together for us

crandandall
03-17-2011, 01:44 AM
In my 3 years as a volvo mechanic, and literally over a hundred manifolds done, not including my own over the past 10 years or numerous custom manifolds, I have never, ever, had one single case of the manifold nuts loosening off. Ever.

Use new volvo stover nuts, volvo manifold gaskets (elring aren't the same) and the thick cupped spring washers.

Must have never used a pre-90 turbo manifold for any extended length of time.....


Why not use a U-shaped washer/lock that sort of incorporates the safety wire?

Something like this:

http://cache.autoanything.com/images/worldpac_media/product/manifold_lock_plate%5B101525%5D/medium/manifold_lock_plate%5B101525%5D.jpg

CAPT_BLOTTO
03-17-2011, 01:50 AM
I usually just have a problem taking them off rather than them falling off. Do you reuse old nuts?

dbarton
03-17-2011, 02:18 AM
I usually just have a problem taking them off rather than them falling off. Do you reuse old nuts?


Old studs, but not old nuts. I have pile of the proper flange locknuts. New ones every time.

RvolvoR
03-17-2011, 02:22 AM
What about Percy's Split Locks?

http://www.percyshp.com/store/bolts-fasteners/stainless-steel-fasteners/cat_412.html

I was considering them for my new header, looks like it might work quite well.

this, I have used them in quite a few of the new Hemi heads for header installs...no problems at all....just took a set off of a pair of heads a few weeks ago...again, no issues

WindowsBreakerG4
03-17-2011, 02:25 AM
BMW nuts look like they are replacements for the volvo ones and they are 33 cents each from rmeuropean

Also andrew is a distributor for stage8s, anyone want a group buy?

towerymt
03-17-2011, 09:44 AM
Maybe the $165 I paid to House of Balance paid dividends in that I don't have stuff vibrating off my engine? :e-shrug:

Had I bought the longer stud kit than what is required, I could have used the volvo cupped washers. But then I wouldn't be able to install the manifold/turbo as one unit...unless I removed the studs each time, which is possible. I anti-seized the studs in the head, and they don't loosen. They've been in my 530 head and my heli-coiled 531, no issues. Dunno why some have problems and others don't. Now the manifold-to-turbo connection has tried to fall apart, but I think I resolved that by sort of staking the studs into the back side of the manifold.

blkaplan
03-17-2011, 10:23 AM
Use new volvo stover nuts, volvo manifold gaskets (elring aren't the same) and the thick cupped spring washers.

I used the thick cupped spring washers with the ARP stainless hardware set and never had any issues.

Dbarton, you might want to check the flatness of your exhaust manifold flange. If its warped it could lead to loosening problems. Many I have seen are not flat.

dbarton
03-17-2011, 10:51 PM
BMW nuts look like they are replacements for the volvo ones and they are 33 cents each from rmeuropean

Also andrew is a distributor for stage8s, anyone want a group buy?

I would want to know if they work on a redblock manifold first. Info I received today says the 8mm nut sets (4 pieces per set) are about $60 shipped for 2 sets. I think I'll order and try it.

How does that compare to the price of percy bolts and ARP sets?
Dave B

WindowsBreakerG4
03-18-2011, 01:17 AM
Andrew (who has a miata whos bp engine is notoriously noisy) uses stage 8s to keep his manifold on so they do work well. Think he used to break safety wire :omg: