A note to those running ms&s

[linuxman51]

In recent days I've discovered yet another item on the list of ms&s setups that I know at least a couple of you guys are using that isnt quite right (don't worry, I'm using the same one myself).. and that is the bosch 124 ignition module that was once thought to work fine, altho several coils were dispatched for no apparent reason by me and roto re me until we put a resistor on the 12v.

comically enough, the coil on the supra blew up last weds (and blew up the ignition module it was attached to as well, pretty cool to look act actually), and even more interesting, the car would arbitrarily blow the spark out in the upper rpms (like mine did) on the dyno.. it was about this time that someone on msefi pointed out that neither the toyota module we were using nor the bosch 124 module that comes standard on lh 2.2 and 2.4 volvos, has built in dwell control (and current limiting for the coil, hence the explosions). the patch for this has been to use a resistor pack, however that in and of itself has led to both roto's and my car's sensitivity to spark plug gap (bigger gap is better).

the short of it... we needa be running 139 modules (i think its 129/139). if you diligently read the ms&s documentation and are already using one, cool, if you're not even using the volvo module, this doenst apply to you (doug). We figured whats actually happening (on the supra) is that since ms can't control dwell, as the rpms rise, the signal "strays" for lack of a better word, and starts hitting other posts in the cap, not as big a problem on the volvo since the gap between posts is larger, but yea..

[Benjam83]

Duh.....big words :p

Something I kind of forgot to ask and a little ot....Do you need an aftermarket ignition system for ms&s? Might be kind of stupid a stupid quesiton....but it's coming from a stupid source. lol

Thanks

[Paul_VR6]

Ooh, do you know what car the module you used comes off of? I know that the ign modules on some Motronic cars (VWs) are the wrong ones as well.

You don't need an ignition box for MSnS, just the right Bosch ignition amplifier, as stated above.

[kyle242gt]

I'd link to the file, but the URLs seem to shift like sands in the hourglass, such are the days of our lives...


The Bosch module 0 227 100 137 / 0 227 100 139 is designed to be used with Hall effect
and also takes care of the coil dwell period.
The module trigger when pin 6 is grounded, but the dwell control prevents
it to create a spark at the first trigger.

Pin layout
1) Coil -
2) Ground
3)
4) 12V
5) Hall+
6) Hall-
7) Tach signal

If you use this module make sure you get the coil too.
Normally there should be a label on the coil saying it is for use in transistorized ignitions.

This module has been used in a number of cars:

Alfa Romeo
75 2.0i T-Spark 87-92
164 2.0i T-Spark 87-92*
164 3.0/3.0-24V 87-92

Audi
80 1.6/1.8 76-86
80 2.0 83-91*
80 2.2 Quattro 81-84
90 2.2/2.3 84-91*
100 1.8E 82-86
100 2.0i 78-86
100 2.2i 82-89
200 2.2 80-83
Coupé 2.2i/Quattro 81-86

Opel
Ascona 1.6 82-83
Ascona 1.6/1.8 83-86*
Kadett 1.6S 82-84
Kadett 1.8i 85-86*
Manta 2.0E 78-88
Monza 3.0 GSE 78-83
Monza 3.0 GSE 84-86*
Rekord 1.8S 83-86*
Rekord 2.0S/E 78-86
Senator 3.0E 78-87
Senator 3.0E 88*

Saab
99 all 84
900 2.0 GL-Turbo 84-88
9000 2.0-16V 85-86
9000 2.0-16V Turbo 85-93

Volkswagen
Golf 1.6 84-88*
Golf 1.8/16V/GTI 83-86
Jetta 1.6 84-86
Jetta 1.8/GT 84-86
Passat 1.6 81-88
Passat 1.8 83-87
Passat 1.9 81-83
Passat 2.0 83-84
Passat 2.2 81-88
Polo 1.3 86
Santana 1.8/2.0 83-84
Scirocco 80-83
Transporter 79-82

Volvo
240 all 85-87
740 2.3 (B230A) 85-86


* = Not all cars of this model uses the module
Make sure the right Bosch number is on the plastic casing

This list is only a guideline to where you can find the module, there might be more cars fitted with module

[the poi]

does this mean we can eliminate the pullup resistor on the power line that I still dont understand entirely?


edit:// and just to note: im running a 124 and haven't blown up a coil, and im not using a ballast resistor either. I can imagine this is because of my MSD Blaster coil, which apparently is staying cool enough that its not blowing up...

[kyle242gt]

the MSD blaster II coil doesn't need a resistor.

I too would like to know if there's a bonus resistor I can remove, as long as I don't have to open the DB37 connector :rant: to do it.

Did the MSD coil help with spark blowout?

[Captain Bondo]

I'd like to add another note:

FIX YOUR WELLFARE WIRING HARNESES!

I've seen so much scary looking wiring in engine bays since MS started it's unreal. Sorry had to get that off my chest. I have some 139's if anyone needs em.

[linuxman51]

no i think the pullup stays, its a signal modifier, the module will keep the coil from charging continuously whilst the car is on but not running, which appears to be the leading cause of until recently inexplicable spontaneous coil degeneration

[the poi]

no i think the pullup stays, its a signal modifier, the module will keep the coil from charging continuously whilst the car is on but not running, which appears to be the leading cause of until recently inexplicable spontaneous coil degeneration
aye. So for the meantime between now and when you do get a 139, do what I do and unplug the coil if you're gonna leave the ign on without running the car, its served me well so far....

[The Aspirator]

Wow I didn't know this, thanks guys.edit:// and just to note: im running a 124 and haven't blown up a coil, and im not using a ballast resistor either. I can imagine this is because of my MSD Blaster coil, which apparently is staying cool enough that its not blowing up...Ditto for me. 6 months with no coil explosions.

Although I am getting some kind of cutout in the higher RPM/boost ranges, and this may well be the cause. Though it's just kinda recent, like the last few weeks. So with the MSD coil do I need to install the resistor Kenny is talking about? Or do I just swap to a 139 Ign module?

John

[kyle242gt]

John, are you still running the oddball wiring schematic? As far as the MSD coil, it's a drop in, and you remove the ballast resistor. The module is a direct drop in, I'm pretty sure the wiring's even the same.

[lilpaz]

So if I'm going to use a msd 6al ignition would I be able to scrap the whole ignition module that is being talked about here? So I would just be using the Megasquirt, 6al, and hall effect distributor? I also have the btm but I've been told that it wouldn't really be doing anything if I hooked it up. Anyone know if I can just skip the use of the btm?

[the poi]

So if I'm going to use a msd 6al ignition would I be able to scrap the whole ignition module that is being talked about here? So I would just be using the Megasquirt, 6al, and hall effect distributor? I also have the btm but I've been told that it wouldn't really be doing anything if I hooked it up. Anyone know if I can just skip the use of the btm?
you dont need the btm or an al for that matter, a 6a would be perfect. And you wont need anyhting special, you only need to wire the hall sensor to the MSnS box, and that wire the spark output wire of MSnS directly to the the SD box (the white wire) and then attahc the coil to the box. Nothing else necessary.

[The Aspirator]

John, are you still running the oddball wiring schematic? As far as the MSD coil, it's a drop in, and you remove the ballast resistor. The module is a direct drop in, I'm pretty sure the wiring's even the same.You know I can't even remember which wiring schematic I'm using, I'd have to reffer back to my megamanual notebook that I printed out. But I haven't changed it since I first installed it, if that helps.

So you're saying that those of us with an MSD coil don't really need to worry about this thread? Or should we upgrade to the 139 ign module anyways?

EDIS time, if I could afford to finish it.

John

[kyle242gt]

Well, what Kenny is saying, and who are we to argue :-P is that the 124 module doesn't have the built in dwell control, and really isn't right for MSnS. The coil doesn't really make any difference in that respect, though it may be tough enough to withstand the abuse from the 124 module.

I'm pretty sure you're running the wackyass wiring still. I'd think about changing that over if you're having any wierdness with the ignition. I had horrible false triggers and unrealistic max timing of 50+ degrees.

[linuxman51]

You know I can't even remember which wiring schematic I'm using, I'd have to reffer back to my megamanual notebook that I printed out. But I haven't changed it since I first installed it, if that helps.

So you're saying that those of us with an MSD coil don't really need to worry about this thread? Or should we upgrade to the 139 ign module anyways?

EDIS time, if I could afford to finish it.

John

edis is better, i needa get off my ass and fab the stuff up for it

[The Aspirator]

Thanks Kyle, that clears things up! I'm not having any really weird problems with ignition, except for this cutout at high rpm/boost. I'll be looking into it during the next few days.edis is better, i needa get off my ass and fab the stuff up for itDitto. All I need are some plug wires and to mill up an adapter for the trigger wheel.

John

[poulson01]

Hey fellas. No I'm not dead.
I'm using a 139 SAAB module in my 242. I installed it last winter and drove the car every day untill the turbo blew up in June. I autoX'd it twice and nothing so much as a glitch so far.

[Frej]

Well, what Kenny is saying, and who are we to argue :-P is that the 124 module doesn't have the built in dwell control, and really isn't right for MSnS. The coil doesn't really make any difference in that respect, though it may be tough enough to withstand the abuse from the 124 module.


How about the 0 227 100 018 :roll:

I took it from a 242 Turbo -1981 in Sweden.. it has Hall Effect Distributor..

or is just all of them (with hall effect distributor) working with MSn'S :???:

[linuxman51]

How about the 0 227 100 018 :roll:

I took it from a 242 Turbo -1981 in Sweden.. it has Hall Effect Distributor..

or is just all of them (with hall effect distributor) working with MSn'S :???:

dunno, have you had any bizzare high rpm spark problems or exploding coils?

[the poi]

No launch control on EDIS :-( . Well, now that i think about it, i think there is... jsut retards timing to minimum, cant cut spark though, so the hard rev limtier has to be fuel.... i thinkt he retard should work fine though. so i guess there is launch control more or less. wow i just had a whole thing right there. anyway, 1500-2000 miles on the 124.... i coicidentally have a stack of five of them in the back. need to hit a jy.....

[Frej]

dunno, have you had any bizzare high rpm spark problems or exploding coils?

No, I have not installed MS into the car jet..

But I am going to soon, and now I found this thread.. :-(

[The Aspirator]

anyway, 1500-2000 miles on the 124.... That's it? Pshhhhhh, I've done that in the last two months, been running MSnS since about april. Count me in for probably 6000 miles.

I figured out the weird cutout in the higher RPMs, basically it was due to my high boost spark angle being 3*.... way too retarded. Now it's at about 15-20* and the car pulls alot harder above 5psi.

So I've had no weird spark related problems. Yet.

John

[linuxman51]

No, I have not installed MS into the car jet..

But I am going to soon, and now I found this thread.. :-(

you can run it with a resistor pack (or experiment and see what happens and then run a resistor pack) while keeping an eye out for the right module, wiring should be the same between the two

[Frej]

you can run it with a resistor pack (or experiment and see what happens and then run a resistor pack) while keeping an eye out for the right module, wiring should be the same between the two

Okay, I can run with resistorpack so the coil not goes up but how about the dwell?

What effect and resistance should the resistorpack be at?

Is it only the Bosch module 0 227 100 137 and 0 227 100 139 who is designed to be used with Hall effect and also takes care of the coil dwell period?

[derosa]

This is something that I've been thinking of doing this winter to my car since the ecu went on it. I thought the purpose of MS&S was to eliminate the stock computers. Is what ever numbers you're rattleing off in the post above something different from the ecu. If so where is it? I only know about the computer sitting behind the passangers side kick panel(240) and my goal is to eliminate this thing completely which is what I thought the new system did. So if it does what are you guys refering too? And whats an IAT that keeps getting mentioned?

[Frej]

This is something that I've been thinking of doing this winter to my car since the ecu went on it. I thought the purpose of MS&S was to eliminate the stock computers. Is what ever numbers you're rattleing off in the post above something different from the ecu. If so where is it? I only know about the computer sitting behind the passangers side kick panel(240) and my goal is to eliminate this thing completely which is what I thought the new system did. So if it does what are you guys refering too? And whats an IAT that keeps getting mentioned?


Whith the MS&S you can get rid of the ECU but you need something to set of the ignitioncoil.

This "something" is called ignitionmodule, it is triggered by a halleffect sensor sitting in the dizzy. But with MS&S you connect the sensor to MS&S and then trigger the ignition module with MS&S. Then you can map the ignition in MS&S and it triggers the module whenever you want to.

The ignition module is needed with MS&S, but some other aftermarket systems have a module built into the system.

Here in Sweden the ignition module in a Volvo 200 series is fitted on the drivers side of the engine between the light and the wheel.

The IAT= Intake Air Temperature.. you need it to tell MS what temp the air is when taken into the cylinders. It has to do with Air/Fuel mixture becoming different at diffrent temperatures.
If not running turbo, you can use a standard Coolant Temp Sensor (CTS).
But if running turbo you need a sensor that is faster in fast chancing temperatures.
These faster sensors is open element sensor type.



Sorry for my bad English :oops:

[linuxman51]

Okay, I can run with resistorpack so the coil not goes up but how about the dwell?

What effect and resistance should the resistorpack be at?

Is it only the Bosch module 0 227 100 137 and 0 227 100 139 who is designed to be used with Hall effect and also takes care of the coil dwell period?

the module doenst have anything to do with the distributor (directly)

[Frej]

the module doenst have anything to do with the distributor (directly)
No but with the hall effect sensor, it was that I was thinking of.

But maybe it has to be a hall sensor if it is a bosch ignition module? Originally

[fidel]

is the Bosch module 0 227 100 137 / 0 227 100 139 the only ones with dwell control. i have a module 0 227 100 147 from a 9000 saab turbo. will it work for ms&s. i am gathering all the stuff i will need. i have a hall efect dizzy.

[Frej]

What effect (W) and resistance (ohm) should the resistorpack be at?

[linuxman51]

What effect (W) and resistance (ohm) should the resistorpack be at?

if you use the saab module you shouldn't need a resistorpack on the coil as its got built in current limiting.

[Frej]

I have a Saab Bosch module but it is the 227 100 124

What effect (W) and resistance (ohm) should the resistorpack be at?

Is it added between the coil and the ignitionmodule on the Highvoltage side?

[The Aspirator]

I have a Saab Bosch module but it is the 227 100 124

What effect (W) and resistance (ohm) should the resistorpack be at?

Is it added between the coil and the ignitionmodule on the Highvoltage side?I'm also using a Bosch 124 ignition module with an MSD coil and I'm having no exploding issues. I have a resistor in line between the coil (+) and the switched 12v power signal. I just went to the car store and asked for a generic resistor "for the coil". I assume it's the exact same one you get with the MSD coils when you buy the kit. I have no idea what resistance and ohms it is supposed to be, but it looks like this (big white thing with two spade connectors):

http://static.summitracing.com/global/images/prod/large/msd-8200_w.jpg

[Frej]

okey thanks!

[linuxman51]

guys the whole point of this post is to disuade you from using the 124 ignition module, i.e. go out and get a 139 and ditch the 124, i think you'll find the car performs a bit better...

[Frej]

guys the whole point of this post is to disuade you from using the 124 ignition module, i.e. go out and get a 139 and ditch the 124, i think you'll find the car performs a bit better...

Thanks for reminding us :oops:

[The Aspirator]

guys the whole point of this post is to disuade you from using the 124 ignition module, i.e. go out and get a 139 and ditch the 124, i think you'll find the car performs a bit better...Yeah we got a 139 to use on my brothers car, which should be up and running within a month or less. Although this motor is going to be oozing with performance all by itself anyways.

Has anyone confirmed that the wiring is the same between the two? If so I'll just toss the 139 module into my car later today and remove the resistor, see if I notice a difference.

John

[the poi]

hey john, are you notcing a random rpm drop when idling, say, from a 1000rpm idle it occasioanlly just drops before catching itself half a second later?

[The Aspirator]

hey john, are you notcing a random rpm drop when idling, say, from a 1000rpm idle it occasioanlly just drops before catching itself half a second later?Don't think so. It's idling a bit rough right now though, overall I'm getting pretty pissed with this shortblock, it's still knocking a bit at idle.

John

[the poi]

hmmm, intersting. Apprently thers this obscure "stumble" that a small number of people have been having. It seemed to get worse when the car got hot, but only happend at idle. I was thinking it was just the coil getting too hot and misfirng from too long a charge time...meh, ill wait till i get my 139 see if it goes away