Building a B21FT from the ground up

[swedishiron.com]

Grand total so far is probably still just under $2,000 US. Alot of the stuff we bought recently was accounted for in my price list that I posted a while ago. But DON'T think this has been easy, because it's been HELL. Though, fun hell. I dunno, the worst part is that it's not even my car, yet it's my project. Sometimes I just feel like all this work is going down the drain. Though we've come to the point where all the technical **** is over with, now it's just finishing everything up. So I'm almost to the point where I'm just gonna stop. If Erik wants the car done he's gonna have to finish it his damn self. It's easy work from here on out, just a lot of it, though everything is straightforward and simple for him to figure out. But whatever, you guys don't need to hear about all this brotherly love/hate crap, so I'll shutup now.

Sometimes the journey is more entertaining than the destination.
And you have provided an extremely detailed account of your learning process, which will invaluably aid others following this endeavor.
Years from now, the two of you will be able to share this wonderful memory!
Jonathan (seen too much of my own Volvo rebuilding heartache to care anymore)

[olov]

ok, just read all 11pages(was planning on doing a rebuild, until......)

a quick question. this "volvo green manual" where to get this?(searched ebay found nothing)

and your posted prices on page 4-5? the balancing prices, were those your "hook-up" prices or what your shop would charge normally?

and please post your specs on your b23 buildup(i'll prolly do a b23)

[The Aspirator]

My price list was in post #105, and I believe that $150 US is the standard cost of balancing (I paid $100). So plan on paying 150 and you should be close give or take $50.

Keep in mind that this buildup is what I would consider to be 90-98% "PERFECT". Only things to do better would be to use forged pistons, aftermarket rods, oil squirters, etc etc. Most people have great success with a cheapo engine buildup that is like 50% of what this has been. Some people just replace the bearings and rings and call it good. This engine has had basically EVERYTHING necessary done to it, as you have just read.

In Stealth's very first post he suggested where to get this green manual. I should have listened to him right away! You NEED to get one if you're going anywhere near the internals of the engine, if anything just for the proper torque specs. This is where I got my manual too, came within a week.
first things first: do you have the green manual TP30170/2 Engine reconditioning?
....$19.35 plus tax and ship from volvotechinfo.com [the last time I ordered a manual from them, it came in 7 days.]
My B23 will be very similar to this B21. 9.0-9.5:1 compression, .035 squish, ported 530 head, etc. All machined, all balanced, all perfect. It will end up more perfect than this one, with better components and more effort put into it. But that doesn't start till I can afford it ;-) , both with money and time.

I took tons of pictures this weekend, so they'll be up here in a couple days.

John

[pbonsalb]

This has been a great thread. I have printed it all out. I never thought we would have a step by step engine rebuild thread here, with help from professional mechanics. I have not rebuilt an engine by myself yet, but it is on my list of things to do -- maybe I'll take on the Penta AQ171 that I have squirreled away in the barn.

Does your $2000 include all the costs to get the motor up and running? I just did a major servicing on a 93 B230FT with 111k miles. I spent about $500 just on parts. All seals, all belts, all hoses, cap, rotor, wires, plugs, motor mounts, all timing belt covers, water pump, some gaskets, fluids, paints, sprays, etc. I did just about everything short of pulling the head and doing the head gasket (the car will be a near stock daily driver and the stock gasket should be fine at 111k) and pulling the pan and resealing the oil pump (which I hope is also fine).

Philip Bradley

[The Aspirator]

Yup, $2,000 includes pretty much everything so far. I haven't really kept track of all the little trips to the hardware and car parts stores, but that's probably no more than $100. We already had new V-belts and timing belt, cap/rotor, plug wires (though they're CRAP), etc so the price doesn't include that stuff. We're re-using motor mounts for now, and had new plugs from before. But the price does include new radiator hoses. So for $2500 you could copy me and end up with more new parts.

[Canuckvolvo]

Ok, not to steal your thunder or anything John, big-time kudos for all the work and knowledge sharing, but what about this:
http://www.precisionengine.com/g_engines_f_volvo.html

For $1600-1700 (plus core) you get a B23FT or B230FT (not sure if you can specify what year) fully rebuilt long block. And it looks like they do everything "right" too, right down to compression testing after assembly.
http://www.precisionengine.com/quality.html

In NO way am I affiliated with these guys, I'm just trying to raise a point- why go to all this trouble and expense when someone else can do it for you, for cheaper even? Or so it looks, is it too good to be true? Mostly I bring it up because I'm thinking of building up another engine with the B21FT core I've got, but it seems to me buying a re-man might be a HELLUVA lot easier, and possibly less expensive (if I don't do it on the cheap of course).

[luke242ti]

Ok, not to steal your thunder or anything John, big-time kudos for all the work and knowledge sharing, but what about this:
http://www.precisionengine.com/g_engines_f_volvo.html

For $1600-1700 (plus core) you get a B23FT or B230FT (not sure if you can specify what year) fully rebuilt long block. And it looks like they do everything "right" too, right down to compression testing after assembly.
http://www.precisionengine.com/quality.html

In NO way am I affiliated with these guys, I'm just trying to raise a point- why go to all this trouble and expense when someone else can do it for you, for cheaper even? Or so it looks, is it too good to be true? Mostly I bring it up because I'm thinking of building up another engine with the B21FT core I've got, but it seems to me buying a re-man might be a HELLUVA lot easier, and possibly less expensive (if I don't do it on the cheap of course).
Interesting company. Thanks for the link! I cant speak for John but from what I gather this was for his brothers high school project. That was a primary motivating factor along with the desire to learn all of these intricate details. I highly doubt they would have opened the combustion chambers to 59cc like John did. (Got pics of those finished chambers john?)

just some thoughts

[Canuckvolvo]

THat would be the only downside I could see, in that they won't modify chambers (not for that price anyway!) and they probably wouldn't deck the block to spec (who knows, maybe they would), but if you could get a fully rebuild '94 or '95 B230FT for under $2000 I could probably live with stock squish and compression....

By the way, and I'm sure John will post pics, but he did a great job on the chambers, they look really even across all four. Really tough considering the amount of material to be removed. The 398 I worked on (see my avatar) I got the chambers to about the same size, but, at the time, I was only within about 0.5cc between each chamber- I think John got them closer, it's tough! Course his aint' as shiny as mine...yet:)

[Matt Dupuis]

Wow, what a kick in the nuts! Where the hell are they getting proper B23FT pistons?

One could buy an engine, tear it down, do all the work you want to do, reassemble it with new gaskets, and still be ahead of the game... However, if there's any warrantee with the new motor you can forget about it when you tear into 'er!

In John & Erik's case, it WAS a school project and credit is probably applied to the build. It was also a learning experience for both of them, and there's pride in ownership associated with building your own motor.

Furthermore, I've seen plenty of crate motors from major manufacturers with significant problems, plus budget rebuild motors from smaller outfits that are absolute crap. Something you install into your car so you can sell it as a running vehicle.

But if you're going to tear into it and inspect everything, what can go wrong?

Edit - I just looked into Ford V8 engines. So far I've spent way more than one from these guys cost, and I haven't paid for machining yet! Okay, so I'm buying lots of upgrades and am not doing the typical rebuild, but still... Thanks, Athal! :rant:

[Hank Scorpio]

are you done yet :-P

[The Aspirator]

Thanks Athal for the cool link, not a bad price for a crate motor. When we were first looking into rebuilding Erik's engine the local machines shops were quoting us between $1000 and 1500, and at the time I thought that was way too much and I could do it way cheaper......... boy was I wrong :-P . For someone that doesn't want to go through the work that I have, that crate motor is a wonderful solution. But mine's way better!

This WAS a school project, and he'll get full credit for it, but it's basically my project now. Athal I took equally framed pictures of each chamber so I could flick through them, they're all VERY similar so I'm happy with myself! All were within .2cc of eachother before decking.

This thing is closer to running than your sema car dougy boy.... Mwahahahahahaha. Pictures tonight.

[stylngle2003]

Mwahahahahahaha. Pictures tonight.
cant wait!

[945ti]

Didn't you buy a new oil pump, have the whole rotating assembly balanced and port out the head though. Do you really think that most rebuild shops would look at all the green manual torque specs, balance everything and double and triple check the cylinder wall clearence?
I am not saying that it isn't a decent sounding deal, but it seems like you payed a little more in little detail parts possibly because of your attention to detail, not just because they are more setup to rebuild engines than you are.

[The Aspirator]

Click here for PICTURES!!!! (http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=32994)

[Hank Scorpio]

This thing is closer to running than your sema car dougy boy.... Mwahahahahahaha. Pictures tonight.

true. But I blew up and rebuilt my old 242 numerous times in the amount of time its taking you to build this motor :-P

(Just kidding bud, its all lovin from this end, the picture thread is great!)

[The Aspirator]

Ohh don't even make me THINK about this engine blowing up.......... :roll: I just don't know if I could handle that right now. This thing is like my first born and it's not even going in my car! Hahahahahaha

[adrianpike]

Ohh don't even make me THINK about this engine blowing up.......... :roll: I just don't know if I could handle that right now. This thing is like my first born and it's not even going in my car! Hahahahahaha

Awesome. I'm going to start calling you up at random hours of the morning, whispering "ping ping ping" softly into the phone.
PS the engine looks kinda ok too.

[adrianpike]

I hate to post twice in a row, even if it is over a week apart. :-( Nonetheless, I'm interested in resurrecting this thread from the 4th page of doom, and getting back into the fray of sharing knowledge to us n00bs.

What's a good, safe, method of breaking in a new engine?
I'm assuming double/triple/quadruple check everything, get everything good to go, then sleep on it just to be sure.
Then what? Just fire it up, let it warm to operating temp., and gently drive it around the block for a few hundred miles? Could you just leave it out of a car (dyno anyone?), and let it idle for a few hours? As anyone reading this post can probably figure out, I don't know the first thing about break-in.

Also, what's the status, John? Got it in the 242 yet? Burnout pix yet? :-D (PS: thanks for the measurements, I got the beast off with a strap wrench...)

[Matt Dupuis]

It sort of depends, Adrian. The #1 thing to worry about, in my mind, is ring seal and how quickly that's achieved.

This is a very simplified explanation: Ring seal comes from the honed surface of the cylinder and the shape of the cylinder, compared to the shape of the ring. Rarely do they mate up perfectly right from the get-go, so some of the roughness of the hone must go towards filing away the "high spots" of the ring. Eventually, the ring will seal all around the bore.

Eventually, the hone will go "smooth" (the honing marks are still there but the edges are all rounded, so it works like a dull file) and the rings will stop wearing at an abnormal "break in" rate. The honing marks NEED to be there to provide oil to the face of the rings, to keep them floating on the cylinder rather than touching it.

The ring is trying to be bigger than the bores at all time, because of the shape of the ring - this puts pressure on the cylinder wall. Combustion pressure leaks down past the cylinder and behind the ring, and forces the ring into the cylinder wall as well. Therefore the more power you make, the harder it forces the ring into the wall.

So what's crucial is to make sure you get the rings filed into shape BEFORE the honed surface goes dull and stop working on the rings. To do this you must get some combustion pressure behind the rings by opening the throttle and making some power. If your hone is really aggressive, you'll wear a good chunk of life out of your rings by doing this, but that's worse than an engine that smokes it's whole life, in my mind. If your hone is really weak, like a backyard rebuild, you need to POUND THE CRAP out of that engine in hopes that you get the rings to seal before your sorry-ass hone goes away. Ask me how I know...

Moly-faced and cast rings typically use a much finer hone than chrome rings, as the chrome rings are quite a bit harder and therefore need to be broken in even harder than with non-chrome rings. At least, that's how I think it goes... Tom?

Your bearings, oil pump, etc., should all be free of danger when it comes to breaking the engine in. That is to say, don't worry about 'em. On a brand new motor, it's possible that there's a heat cycling or a cyclical stress relieving process that goes on thru the heat and vibration of the motor, and that brand new components must undergo this process slowly before they're toughened up and relaxed enough to be hammered on, but this is a bit of a weak theory...

Every engine a magazine has ever built and put on a dyno has been broken in over about a 30 minute period (usually to break in a flat-tappet cam) and then they pull the handle. Same goes with racing motors - they build 'em, toss 'em on the dyno, get 'em up to temp and/or break in the cam, and send 'er to the moon. Once they know the engine makes the power and once they develop the jet/timing package for it, they put it into the car. I'm not saying that this is the way you should break in a street motor, but your motor isn't going to fly apart if you beat 'er up right away...

My rule of thumb: break it in like you're going to drive it. An engine that is broken in hard will run strong but maybe not live as long. An engine that's broken in gently will live a long life, but not make the power. Building engines is fun, and I like power, so...

[The Aspirator]

We got the shortblock and tranny IN the car yesterday, so can I get a :woowoo:? Hehehehehe. Boy only getting to work on this car like 2 hours a week really sucks.....

Thanks for the explanation Matt! That makes a ton of sense, now I'm actually understanding the how's and why's of different breaking procedures. A few pages ago I posted a link or two showing how Thomas breaks in his engines, ahh here they are. I've still got to go through and read them again, but it should keep you guys busy for a little bit.
http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=27310
http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=17215
http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=16751

Now that I have all the hard work done, it is time to discuss this a bit. Remember that I got two different set of rings, one set had a chrome top ring and the other had a plain iron top ring. I can't remember off the top of my head which ones I put in the motor, but I can check back at my pictures to confirm it later. Because from what Matt said, the break-in procedure can be different for each one.

John

[Unregistered]

On equestion to Matt:
Wouldn't breaking it in hard also make the hone smoother alot faster?

[Matt Dupuis]

Yes.

[Unregistered]

Ok, i'm confused.

breaking it in hard -> hone gets smooth fast -> no "filing" of the rings -> bad thing?

breaking it in softly -> not enough pressure to "file" the rings -> bad thing?

what did i miss?

[Captain Bondo]

"true. But I blew up and rebuilt my old 242 numerous times in the amount of time its taking you to build this motor"

LOL, I've used that line a few times myself! :rofl:

Looking good John!

With the hone wearing faster breaking it in hard, the theory is the leakdown pressure into the crankcase forces the rings "outward" radially against the cylinder walls forcing them to be abraded directly. That seems counter to what I always thought- that crankcase pressure means the pressure on each side of the ring is closer to equal which is detrimental to our cause (ie if crankcase vaccuum improves ring seal, leakdown hurts it). But I suspect I missed something too. ;-) The effect of crankcase pressure on the rings is probably its own topic. :)

[Morley]

Most topfuelers, pro-stockers and other race engines use vacuum created by a dry-sump to put more pressure on the rings and help the oil seals...if this applies to a DD motor, can be discussed.

[The Aspirator]

Hey guys! Progress is slow, but we're trying hard! It's finally coming together, should be on the road within a week :x: :rockon: .

But for right now, I'm having some camshaft trouble! Remember that it's a 405 with a full rebuild and a B-cam. I got it all shimmed nice and right (about 18 thou exhaust, 16 thou intake). But the thing is, I can't rotate the cam! I've got the three middle caps tight to 14 ft/lbs and I've got a 17mm socket on the cam bolt. The cam just won't rotate, even with a handlebar extension on the socket wrench... the bolt just gets tighter. I would just keep cranking till it rotates but I don't want the bolt to snap off cause I don't have a good method of removing it afterwards....... which means crap B-cam.

I have an A-cam sitting here too, though it's a lot dirtier than this nice pretty clean B-cam. So worse comes to worse I'll try the A-cam and see if it'll rotate. When I loosen up the caps a little bit, like a 1/4 turn, the cam will rotate pretty easily and the valves open up just fine. Humm, maybe the new valve guides are tighter than I'm used to? I just can't imagine the timing belt being able to turn this cam if I can't even get it with a 3ft extension on my socket wrench.....

Ideas?

THANKS!

[Captain Bondo]

How warped was the head? I'd be worried the journals could be out of alignment.
Bearing caps on the right way around and etc? make sure they are on 1-5 and that they aren't on backwards, they have a front and a back side. You lube it?
Sorry for the dumb questions, just covering the basics. ;)

[GTJordan]

I"m with kenny on the lube. My first head swap, I didn't lube the cam and I couldn't get it to turn. Then I pulled the cam put in some lube and wam, now it moves...

Jordan

[adrianpike]

I've got easy-outs if you want to come down and borrow 'em... I'd bring them up, but I've got an 8-page paper, and a phatty program due wednesday. :freak:

[The Aspirator]

I'm really not sure how warped the head was, the machine shop didn't tell me how much he decked it (and I forgot to ask). All the bearing caps are on the proper direction, and in order. There is PLENTY of lube, the first time around I just used some moly grease, then I used lots of oil. Still pretty suck. Maybe I'll try that A-cam, and possibly some different bearing caps?? (the ones I'm using are the ones from this head originally)

John

[stealthfti]

I'm really not sure how warped the head was, the machine shop didn't tell me how much he decked it (and I forgot to ask).
You should have asked; and he should have stamped the head with the amount milled off.

You can measure the head thickness and compare it to the specified thickness in the green manual. You'll need a 6in. dial caliper or 6in. micrometer to do that. I have a pic of checking head thickness in my goodaluminum gallery.

All the bearing caps are on the proper direction, and in order. There is PLENTY of lube, the first time around I just used some moly grease, then I used lots of oil.

That's good: caps correctly oriented; in correct position; and sufficiently lubed.

Maybe I'll try that A-cam, and possibly some different bearing caps?? (the ones I'm using are the ones from this head originally)

Trying different bearing caps would be a VERY unwise thing to do. They ARE machined in place for the position they run in.

Trying the Acam? why so? that Bcam is bent? I doubt that.

A few possibilities:

IF the bearing caps are in their correct positions, and IF they are oriented correctly, and if they are sufficiently lubed, THEN:

....perhaps you sckewed the camshaft a bit while tightening it down, peeled off a bit of aluminum; and that aluminum shaving is now giving you grief;

...perhaps one of the tappets is binding; but from your description, it seems that the cam rotates freely with the caps loosened. THAT should rule out a tappet problem.

...perhaps the head was warped badly enough that the camshaft journals ARE warped and out of alignment. [and perhaps this is why the head was not stamped with the surfaced amount. Not implying malfeasance or moral turpitude on the part of your MS; just that THAT thought crossed MY mind]

There are specifications as to the max allowable warpage of the SOHC head: those specs ARE in the green manual. To deviate from those specs, and just to ASSume that it'll be okay...????

There are no max misalignment specs for the cam journals on the SOHC head in the green manual. The general industry standard [the old rule of thumb, in some ways] is that at more than 0.004in journal misalignment, you SHOULD align bore the cam journals in an aluminum OHC head.

I am going to cut your MS a bit of slack and state that it IS a common crap-in-your-own-dinner-plate kind of mistake to NOT be aware of, and therefore NOT be concerned with, and therefore to NOT BOTHER to measure and VERIFY cam journal alignment in an aluminum OHC head.

People remain ignorant of, and remain unconcerned with, that information at their own peril. And unfortunately, too many MS's do not take cam journal misalignment potentials into account when they check and surface an OHC aluminum head.

HOPEFULLY, all you did was peel off some aluminum while you were cranking the camshaft down into position via some bearing caps...because that is the ghetto procedure that supposedly works just fine. [yeah; right]

You will have to remove the camshaft, clean all the lube off the journals, and inspect for shaved metal: imbedded in a head journal, in one of the caps, or galled onto a cam journal.

If no metal shavings are there in one of the journals, then you really should measure the cam bearing journals for alignment with a straight edge [a REAL one], or a warp gauge [a round straight edge]; or have that done.

I say that ASSuming that there are no valvetrain binding problems inside the head contributing to the problem.

HTH

TF

[Captain Bondo]

I'd straightedge the journals if they come up clean like steath said. I suppose you've bolted the head on now? Would've been interesting to know if it turned freely while the head was off the motor (I assume it must have if you managed to shim it?) :?: If it turned fine to shim it, and now bolted on it won't turn, somethiin is either off with how you installed it or the block deck. And if it didn't turn when you shimmed it, how the heck did you shim it?

[The Aspirator]

Yes, I should have asked how much it was decked, I'm kinda kicking myself for that one. But I had my brother drop it off and pick it up, and it never crossed his mind either. The MS didn't stamp it either, I checked closely yesterday. My thoughts for wanting to try the other A-cam would be because maybe the journals are a few thou smaller..... I dunno, it was just a thought that crossed my mind. Tomorrow I'll go back out and remove the cam, then remove all the grease/oil and take a close look at the bearings. I noticed that there were a few small pitts in some of the bearings, but they've been there for a while and are smooth to the touch.

Tappet = shim, right? Just checking. All the shims are down all the way and rotate freely. They also have oil below them. With the caps loosened just a 1/4 turn the camshaft will rotate freely and the valves open and close just dandy. But when I tighten it down that quarter turn, it all seizes up for some reason, I just can't turn the sucker.


HOPEFULLY, all you did was peel off some aluminum while you were cranking the camshaft down into position via some bearing caps...because that is the ghetto procedure that supposedly works just fine. [yeah; right]

Yes, hopefully that's what the issue is. And yes, that is the way I'm installing the cam.

Kenny, yeah I've already bolted the head to the block. I even copper sprayed the HG so it's nice and sticky now. Removing it won't be too fun, I'm thinking it might rip the HG cause of the spray..... Hope not. The cam did not turn freely with the head off the car and on the bench, same deal. I actually thought that installing it on the car would make it easier to spin cause I wouldnt' have to hold it down, but nope. I shimmed it on the bench, and since it wouldn't turn I just unbolted it, rotate, tighten, measure, shim, unbolt, rotate, tighten, measure, etc........

We'll see what happens tomorrow when I take a closer look.

[Captain Bondo]

Don't worry about saving the hg if you have to pull the head- it's a one time use sort of thing. Once you compress it, it's done. Hope it's something simple man!

[The Aspirator]

Ohh yeah that's right. Just didn't really want to pull the head again, I thought we were done with that part of the build! Oh well, such is life.

[Unregistered]

My thoughts for wanting to try the other A-cam would be because maybe the journals are a few thou smaller..... Tomorrow I'll go back out and remove the cam, then remove all the grease/oil and take a close look at the bearings. I noticed that there were a few small pitts in some of the bearings, but they've been there for a while and are smooth to the touch.

John, that is a possibility. There may be a dimensional variance; or there may be a burr or ding on the Bcam thrust flanges. And actually, it is possible for the cam to be bent, although that is unlikely. Even though those camshafts are pretty stout, it is possible to bend one.

Tappet = shim, right? Just checking. All the shims are down all the way and rotate freely. They also have oil below them. With the caps loosened just a 1/4 turn the camshaft will rotate freely and the valves open and close just dandy. But when I tighten it down that quarter turn, it all seizes up for some reason, I just can't turn the sucker.
The tappets are the buckets; the shims sit in the top of the tappets.

The fact that the cam rotates freely with the bearing caps slightly loose indicates that the valves/guides/tappets are okay.


The cam did not turn freely with the head off the car and on the bench, same deal. I actually thought that installing it on the car would make it easier to spin cause I wouldnt' have to hold it down, but nope. I shimmed it on the bench, and since it wouldn't turn I just unbolted it, rotate, tighten, measure, shim, unbolt, rotate, tighten, measure, etc........

The fact that the binding occurred on the bench as well as when torqued down is encouraging in some ways: the problem is consistent; and not due to some core shift problem after torque down. That is not to say that there is not a bearing journal misalignment problem; just that the problem was not caused by the head being installed and torqued down.

John, it really looks like it is one of a few things:

...the camshaft has a ding or burr on a bearing surface or thrust face;
...one or more of the bearing caps may have a deformation due to the tightening down of the cam;
...you may have shaved some aluminum off a cap or off the head journal; and that shaving is causing the bind;
...it is possible the camshaft is bent, or has a dimensional variance. Both of which are unlikely; but need further examination to confirm or discount.
...OR, the head was warped [at some time] enough that the cam journals became misaligned.

That last one can be the real kick in the a$$. If the head was overheated and warped some at some point in the past, was resurfaced to correct the deck warpage but the cam journals were not attended to then; and then the head was returned to service and functioned okay but was overheated again [for other reasons]; then a rewarp that by itself is not extreme but when added to a prior warp finally adds up to excessive cam journal misalignment.

What should you do? Pull the Bcam and check the head journals and the bearing caps for shavings and distortions. If you have a straight edge, check the head journals. Compare the Bcam to the Acam to see if there is some variation or damage.

And you might just want to try the Acam to see. That would not hurt. If the binding is still there, even though no shavings or burrs or distortions, then the problem is most likely in the cam journals themselves: an amount of misalignment that is causing the camshaft to bind.

To try to narrow down the location of the problem, try this:

...loosen one bearing cap, and try to rotate the cam. If the cam rotates, the problem is probably in that area. If the cam does not rotate with one bearing cap loosened, retighten that cap, and try the next one. Go through all five caps that way.

The cam may not rotate with just one cap loosened. It may require two or three caps to be loosened before the cam will rotate. When you find out which one or ones it takes to be loose before the cam will rotate, you will have a good idea of where the problem is. You may not know WHAT the problem is at that point; but you will know WHERE it is.

I hope it is just some aluminum shaved off and sitting in there binding things up; or that you mislocated or mispositioned a cap. Next best would be a bent or damaged Bcam.

Just take your time and examine things carefully and slowly. Yes, the head may have to come off. But, make sure that the problem IS one that will require the head to come off: before you pull the head. If it turns out to be something that you did during your assembly work, then you can correct that and proceed. [and get mad at yourself later].

TF

[Morley]

How did you tighten down the cam? If you did it the extremely wrong way, and started in one end, tightening the journal all to the bottom, you may have a banana-cam by now...a friend of mine did that. Do you have double valve-springs? That's even harder on the cam...

[The Aspirator]

Thank you Thomas, I'll go out right now and try all those things, then come back here and give a full report.

When tightening down the cam (since I don't have one of those fancy tools) I tightened it using the 2 and 4 bearing caps. I did NOT start from one end, but I could imaging a few people doing that and think nothing of it.... Naw it went down nice and level every time I did it. We don't have double valve springs.

Thanks guys, these are some GREAT tips. My bro and I are heading out right now to do some wrenching, this car is coming together really quickly now.

John

[The Aspirator]

Figured it out! :-D

Well I also figured out that I'm stupid, but we all knew that. I had to think back really really hard, then I realized that I was using the bearing caps from a different head all along. The caps I was using are from a 398 head that we've got, it's all cleaned and rebuilt too so I stupidly took it's caps and used them on this 405.... without even giving it a second though. Until Stealth posted it above I didn't even consider the fact that you shouldn't swap caps between heads........... now I know.

So luckily I had the proper caps for this 405, I cleaned them up and put them side by side with the 398 caps that I was using. I could tell that they were slightly different dimensions, that the 398 caps would be a lot tighter. Also, the 398 caps had a bevel at the edge while the 405 caps dont (405 top, 398 bottom):
http://www.j2mediagroup.com/john/bearing-caps01.jpg

So I cleaned up the proper 405 caps, lubed everything up, installed and torqued, then VOILA!!! We have turn-age. Everything works perfectly now! Thanks guys for sticking with me and for all your great advice.

Now, I've got a car to finish! See ya....

John

[Captain Bondo]

LOL. Might take ya a while to live that down! Glad you figured it out though bro!

[The Aspirator]

Well, we're getting closer and closer every day. The past week has been all out hardcore just getting our asses out there and wrenching all day long (at least a few hours every day). All that we have left is a little bit of megasquirt wiring and a few small things here and there. We started up the fuel pump yesterday and found a nice nasty fuel leak at the fuel pressure regulator. This is a 740 style dodge 4bar FPR. Not only was it leaking out the o-ring, but fuel was also coming out the FRONT nipple, which means it's garbage. Luckily I have a spare one that Matt and Dale gave me! Thanks guys! So today I'm running out to get a new o-ring for that since I can't find one here that seems tight enough for my liking.

We're really really hoping to start the car this afternoon sometime after Erik gets out of school. We'll prime the engine as Matt suggested. We already took a spare oil pump drive, ground all the gears off and welded a nut to the top. This will let one of us spin the oil pump by itself by drill, while the other turns the engine over by hand a few revolutions. Then put the breather box on, intake mani on, then set the ignition timing with megasquirt.

Breakin procedure will be as Hastings Ring mfg suggests, since they do this for a living and I'm using their product, why would I choose a different method? You guys kept telling me to ask them what gap to set their rings to, so using their method should be just as sound. It's not the same method that Stealth has posted about in the past, but it's what Matt and many others have suggested.
Besides, I love matt's quote:
My rule of thumb: break it in like you're going to drive it. An engine that is broken in hard will run strong but maybe not live as long. An engine that's broken in gently will live a long life, but not make the power. Building engines is fun, and I like power, so...


<TABLE cellSpacing=4 cellPadding=0 width="94%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=bottom colSpan=3>BREAK-IN PROCEDURE(Hastings Ring Mfg)</TD></TR><TR><TD></TD><TD></TD><TD></TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top width="103%" colSpan=3>STARTING PROCEDURE1. Set tappets, adjust carburetor and ignition timing as accurately as possible before starting engine. 2. Start engine and set throttle to an engine speed of approximately 25 miles per hour (trucks, tractors and stationary engines one-third throttle) until the engine coolant reaches normal operating temperature. Then shut down engine and retorque cylinder head bolts, recheck carburetor adjustments, ignition timing and valve tappet clearance. (Run engine at fast idle during warm-up period to assure adequate initial lubrication for piston rings, pistons and cylinders.)
BREAK-IN PROCEDURE

1. Make a test run at 30 miles per hour and accelerate at full throttle to 50 miles per hour. Repeat the acceleration cycle from 30 to 50 miles per hour at least ten times. No further break-in is necessary. If traffic conditions will not permit this procedure, accelerate the engine rapidly several times through the intermediate gears during the check run. The object is to apply a load to the engine for short periods of time and in rapid succession soon after engine warm up. This action thrusts the piston rings against the cylinder wall with increased pressure and results in accelerated ring seating.</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

[adrianpike]

<font size=+2>Woo hoo!</font>
So close!

[WeezilUSA]

Woot! Let me know how it goes... or just give me a call before you come over ;-)

[Canuckvolvo]

So????? been through a set of rear tires yet?????

[The Aspirator]

Sorry guys, I've been meaning to post some more stuff but I've been SUPER busy moving to another house and trying to get this beast running. Lets see if I can remember this from the top, here's what we've been up to for the past week...

So I think I mentioned the fuel leak above, the only o-ring I could find to fit it was getting a new set of injector o-rings for $10, so now I've got 7 extra ones. But it doesn't leak a drop!

Then we filled it up with coolant.... DAMN the o-ring that attaches the water pump to the heater pipe is leaking! And I even had MR Bondo himself install it.....:grrr: hahaha, just ribbing ya. But it did leak. So we backed the manifold off a bit, pulled the pipe out, gobbed a bunch of RTV on the outside of the o-ring, and slid it back in. No more leaks.

Then I finally wired up the spark side of Megasquirt, that was an experience. From what I've read there are several different ways to wire these things up, so it took me a while to find the right one to use. Then we thought the dizzy was funked cause it was giving odd readings during the setup tests, but alas, slapped it in my car and it worked. Then Erik got shocked, luckily he's completely fine.
------------
*now for all you MS guru's*
I wired in the module's pin 6 to the MS Fidle wire (30) and got no response from the coil while rotating the dizzy. After hours and hours of testing and proding, I finally switched the output to come from the (-) terminal of LED 17. Worked like a charm! So, for the 139 module we're using it goes something like this:
1- coil negative
2- ground
3- nothin really, it's a shield for #5 that doesn't really get used
4- switched 12v, I took mine from the coil + cause I made a relay give that switched 12v
5- dizzy + side with a 10ohm resistor inline
6- Fidle wire (didn't work for me) OR the negative side of LED 17 (using the newer codes, be sure to click the setting for it!)
7- goes to our in-dash tachometer, not sure if it works yet

Dizzy gets power from the module pin 5, ground from the chassis, and the middle signal wire goes to pin 25, and you have to jumper X11 to XG1. Then you connect pin 24 to a 390 ohm resistor, then to a switched 12v source (like pin 28 right next to it).
------------
Then we started the priming procedure. As Matt suggested we took an old drive gear and ground all the teeth off. Then I took a spare headbolt, chopped the head off, then welded it to the top of the gear. COOL. Then we started priming with the drill in reverse (counterclockwise) for a minute or two, but weren't getting ANY oil pressure reading from our newly installed Autometer mechanical oil pressure gauge. Hurmmmmm. Took off the oil feed to the turbo, DRY. Hummmmm. Maybe some sort of blockage somewhere? Unlikely, but okay. Remember we've installed a Summit oil filter relocation kit. So we removed the oil filter and spun the oil pump. Well, some oil definately came out. Okay, we're good here right? Wrong. After a few hours we finally just removed the entire relocation kit and put a filter in the stock location. BAM!!! Spinning the pump with the drill gave us 60psi of oil pressure within seconds! And a nice little oil leak at the connection to the gauge. "So pinky, how tight did you make that fitting?" "Well I dunno Brain, lets go look. Humm, seems to be quite loose, I'm an idiot." Tightned that up, no more leaks, full pressure, then I kept it spinning at about 40 psi while Erik turned the engine over by hand 5 full revolutions. GOOD TO GO! We're still not sure what the restriction was, maybe it's in the extra 90* fittings we had to install to make the hoses clear.

Ohh and the ALT light on the dash kept staying on, even with the key out. So we figured it was just a weird wiring goof from the dash swap so we removed the light bulb for it. Then yesterday I realized that we didn't install the ground strap for the alternator. Duhhhh.

So now I've caught you guys up to about 9:30 last night. We started cranking on it. Got a little sputter at first, then nothing but spinning engine. Okay, the plugs are most likely soaked from all the testing we did cause I could hear them clicking a lot, but lets check for spark first by removing a plug wire and sticking a spare plug in there then grounding the tip. While wearing gloves. Then cranking. GOOD, we've got good spark. The plugs were soaked, so we removed 'em and blasted them with brake cleaner. Put them back in and got a little sputter again, then just cranking. Then the battery died so we called it a night.

Everything is done, I think everything works, it doesn't leak a drop anymore (so far), it's all looking very promising. I think the current problem will end up being the timing belt possibly off a tooth, or the dizzy installed in the wrong position, or the Megasquirt trigger angle being way off. Basically a timing issue. Tomorrow I'll head back down there and we'll keep working on it.

John

[Captain Bondo]

Don't even talk, cam journal boy. :lol:
Bummer though, must not have gotten it round/tab square- it looked like it had been run over. ;) But hey, at least I got yer spring cut and you guys didn't have to break your fingers off trying to do it. :-P How does it sit, incidentally?

On the timing thing, easiest way is cam at the valvecover mark, bottom pulley @ 0deg (obviously on those two point I know) then pull the dizzy cap off and you'll see a tiny little tick mark on the top edge of the aluminum dizzy housing. The rotor should point just clockwise of that. Pointing straight at it would be zero advance. Maybe you know that but if not it's handy because you can check it all without relying on the belt marks or pulling the cover off if you have it installed. You got fuel?

[The Aspirator]

Actually the car still sits really high up front. I'm guessing it's because it's been up/down/sideways on jackstands for the past 6 months, maybe it'll settle down once we get it driving.

Thanks for the tip on the dizzy notch!! I just ran out to my car and checked it for refference. At first I couldn't find what the hell you were talking about, but then a saw a little tick mark at the very top of the aluminum. Like someone took a screwdriver and hammer then tapped a little notch into it. Looks to be in the right location, so we'll try that. I had Erik install the timing belt and I told him to be very accurate with it, so I trust it's on right. But it won't hurt to double check the belt at the crank and make sure it lines up. Once we get the dizzy timed right I'm quite confident that it'll fire right up. We do have fuel, I could smell it when I took the plugs out. I guess I'm not 100% sure that all the injectors are working, but eh we'll find out soon enough.

[Captain Bondo]

Sweet man, sounds like you found it, its a handy little tick!
We can always whack another coil off later on. 240 w/ front end too high=suck. :)
I'm thinking of cutting my SAM springs but that's another story. lol.

[The Aspirator]

Guess it's time to update this honker. Last week we got it all together and started (finally). Turns out that when Erik put on the timing belt the crank was about 90* off and he didn't realize it.....

Then it started RIGHT up and idled on its own quite nicely! But then even more problems started popping up. I can't remember them all but the biggest kick in the nuts lies in another post I made, anyone else got any advice for me??

http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?p=364919#post364919

[stealthfti]

well John, from the other threads you have started regarding the problems you are having, it sounds like you have created a rather large cluster-f*** for your self.

before I continue, and before you run the new motor any more, you might want to check the engine oil to see if it is fuel contaminated. If the oil smells gassy, or feels really thin and NOT oily, then it would be a good idea to correct that before running the motor any more. Mains and rods--as in bearings--don't really care for gasoline as a lubricant.

If the engine oil is not gassed up, then good. That's one problem you haven't made for yourself.

Regarding the other problems that you have mentioned:

I thought that you were trying to run in a new motor.

So, you installed those CFI injectors because???

You scrapped the terrible and lousy and antiquated B21FT Bosch ignition system that was running just fine because????

And after the audience asked "how hot was it?" re the red hot exhaust, I will ask "WHAT" is red hot? the exhaust manifold? the turbine housing? the DP?

I would suggest that having a wide band--or any O2 sensor--only 3 inches from the end of a pipe is not a very good idea. And did you correct the exhaust leak between the turbo and the manifold?

Do you know what the fuel pressure is?

Do you know what the base timing is? and what the spark timing is at 1500? 2000? 2500? 3000? And I don't mean what the MS is telling you the timing is. I mean what the timing IS...as in actually checking the timing with a timing light?

I could go on and on; but I won't. You haven't supplied sufficient info for even a half-a$$ed long distance diagnosis.

The reason that I am making my reply here in this thread is because it has to do with building a motor. When you do a motor, you do not make lots of external changes to support systems that were working just fine beforehand and go with things that you have not verified the operation of when the PURPOSE IS TO RUN IN THE NEW MOTOR. You wait and install the extraneous crap AFTER the new motor has been run in.

...unless of course you LIKE ending up in deep doodoo.

Thomas Fritz
...the stealth FTi

[The Aspirator]

Cluster-f*** is right. But we're here now, lets fix it and never do it again.

The old ignition system wasn't working well to begin with, so we scrapped it before even deciding to properly rebuild this engine. And in most installations, MSnS starts right up without a hitch. I was always a bit apprehensive running a new engine on a new programmable unit, but I knew that I could tune out the rough edges within minutes of startup. It's just that something is fcking with us and causing all sorts of problems.

We've been regularly checking the oil, the level has never increased or decreased one bit, though we haven't purposely checked for a fuel smell, but will make sure to do so.

We installed the CFI injectors cause that's what we decided to use for this motor. Just because they can flow a lot doesn't mean they have to. I'm running CFI's on my N/A engine with no problems, they just use like a 20% max duty cycle. Not ideal, but so what.

Sorry I didn't clarify on the exhaust hottness. I noticed that the CAT was glowing just from idling the car for like 20 minutes. The rest of the exhaust system (manifold/turbo/downpipe/exhaust) was not glowing at all. Air fuel ratio was a steady 14.

We did correct the exhaust leak between the turbo and manifold. We just threw on a pre-90 manifold.

For the first startup, idle, and first test drive, the complete exhaust system was in place. Thereby making the WB02 sensor be in a great location. We noticed that our new cat was super hot so we thought it might be plugged for some reason.... off came the exhaust. This is why the sensor is so close to fresh air, till we get the exhaust back on.

No I don't know what the fuel pressure is.

I have verified with a timing light that megasquirt is putting out an accurate signal. When I set MS timing to a fixed 10*, the timing light reads that too. Sorry I haven't supplied "enough information" for you, but I have NO CLUE what the problem is and I've got no clue what you need to hear in order to help me out. I've tried nearly everything that's come to mind but nothing is curing the main issue. I screwed up somewhere, I know that, I don't need people rubbing it it. I learn as I got along, you can't possibly expect me to know all this sh!t before hand. I figured that megasquirt would do it's job and everything would be fine and dandy.

[jpbturbo]

John,
sounds kinda the way my car acted when I had the Cam gear off a few teeth.
It idled well enough but it wouldn't make any power and the exhaust turbine started glowing way too quick for my liking.
Then I got the cam gear retarded back a few teeth to where it belonged and things got better.

Hope you get it worked out.

[stealthfti]

John:

first...I am in the middle of three projects; so I cannot respond in minutes.

second...tell everyone there who is getting antsy and worked up to calm down, chill out, and take some deep breaths. and you do the same. Being upset NEVER solves a problem.

ok?

now, tell me more about the red hot cat. Define please, along these lines:

the cat was glowing just barely enough to see if you were in the dark of the moon in a deep valley. The cat had a faint glow to it.....OR

the cat was glowing like a bright ember in the fireplace; it was bright enough to see it plainly in broad daylight.

....where was the glowing cat between those two extremes? when I have answers to that, I can then give you some analysis on that.

next, the O2 sensor: was it a new one? do you have another one? or another car that is also so equipped to try swapping it to verify operation?

next: good; the base timing is "correct". or at least you can set for 10 BTDC and see 10 BTDC. A step in the right direction.

now, did you check to see what the rotor tip and distributor cap terminal alignment is when at TDC? the reason for that question is when messing with the dist position on a sys that controls advance, it is possible to "get the timing right" but have some serious misalignment issues inside the distributor cap.

what is the spark plug gap?

what sends the computer the load signal? or the throttle position? [if applicable] have you tested and verified the operation of the load signal and/or throttle position signal device?

have you tested and verified the operating temp signal sender device for the computer.

did you test those injectors?

I have more questions, but no time for them right now. and actually want the answers to the above before proceeding.

Not sure just how well you understand EFI and what it takes to work:

....with pressurized fuel, and a means of delivering and metering the fuel, the computer, AKA FRED [f'n ridiculous electronic device] only has to have four imputs to function:

1. engine speed
2. engine temp
3. engine load or air flow
4. driver command

with those four imputs, an EFI can run.

from there, it is when you start asking Fred to do more is where things get complicated.

give me some answers; and I will try to help figure it out.

in the meantime, calm down. This kinda crap problem is not uncommon. BTDT. and is partly why I was giving you some grief for all the extraneous changes. and why I do not play the let's-see-how-many-things-we can-change-at-one-time game when doing a motor.

later.

TF

PS. it could be something stupid. So calm down and everyone around you do the same. Review and double check things, one at a time. Murphy's Law says that the stupid thing will be the last thing that you get around to checking.

[adrianpike]

I'll buttinski here and fill in the blanks that I know, just to keep this ball rolling on along and try and get this project all wrapped up.

next, the O2 sensor: was it a new one? do you have another one? or another car that is also so equipped to try swapping it to verify operation?

I believe with about 95% certanity that John is using a TechEdge Wideband controller. I'm not sure if he's using an additional narrowband O2 sensor for input to MegaSquirt, or if he's using the 0-1V output from the TechEdge, we'll have to wait for his input on that.


what sends the computer the load signal? or the throttle position? [if applicable] have you tested and verified the operation of the load signal and/or throttle position signal device?

MegaSquirt relies on manifold absolute pressure, RPM, and intake temperature to determine fuel requirements. It also takes input from a TPS, or, alternatively, as I am using it, it can watch the MAP over time and derivate increases and decreases in throttle from that. It has a coolant temperature sensor, but it ignores that input above a set temperature, and it only uses coolant temperature for warmup enrichments. (Or special features and what-not, but we only care about simple fuel & spark ATM)
MS is programmed decent enough that these sensors don't have to be very accurate for everything to work correctly. A good RPM signal is key, of course, but there is a fair bit of fudge factor in all the other sensors. It won't run well with crappy sensors, but it will run and make power.
A throttle signal isn't really required for the engine to run, and run just fine. Sudden throttle changes cause a lean problem, but you can slowly roll on the throttle without a problem, and it will happily squirt the correct amount of fuel. I believe that the TPS (or MAPdot) can be eliminated from the troubleshooting.
It could be a bad RPM signal, or a flukey IAT sensor, but those are very easy to notice, as during tuning, it's easy to watch the tach on the tuning computer jump around, or it's pretty easy to notice that the IAT sensor says that the temperature in the intake tract is ten below, when everybody's walking around in shorts and t-shirts.
My ignorant and still learning gut tells me that it's either a spark problem, or the wideband is lying for some reason. That narrows it way down, doesn't it? :-P

Murphy's Law says that the stupid thing will be the last thing that you get around to checking.
Also, you usually stop checking when you find the problem. :-P

[stealthfti]

Adrian, thanks for the filling in of some blanks.

no driver command signal? interesting: definitely a very basic system. and yes, I understand that it is possible to extrapolate the driver command signal [aka TPS] by way of monitoring the changes in MAP signal.

John, since it is late and since I will be unavailable tomorrow, I figured to do some things preemptively, aka ASSume a few things in advance:

if the cat was barely glowing, or mildly glowing, that would be understandable. the lubes and things inside the motor can kinda load the cat a bit during the first run, until that stuff cleans itself out. I never start a fresh motor with a new cat or a new O2 sensor in the exhaust; to avoid that contamination probability; usually no cat and a dead O2 just to fill the hole. Once things have run a bit and settled down, then I will install a new O2.

What I am saying is this: if it was just the cat getting a bit of a warm glow and nothing else in the exhaust was glowing, then it probably was a start up lube contamination thing.

Which is why I asked about another O2 or another car to swap with.

If your MSnS is also without a driver command signal, and relies on an extrapolation of TPS via MAP reading delta [change], then that would raise a lean condition as being a potential culprit. Just how that could be occurring with CFI injectors in there, I am not sure.

What I mean by that is that if the injectors are delivering a lean mix, then that could aggravate the stumble on accel situation.

Re-reading the timing problem thread makes me dubious of the timing advance as well. Which is why I was wondering if you had actually read the timing with a timing light.

Something is off. [yeah: real profound there].

cam timing off can kill power on accel. just for the heck of it: remove the cam gear and verify that the roll pin has not sheared.

lean mix can kill accel power; especially on a sys that has to extrapolate the driver command signal off the MAP reading. Which is partly why I asked about fuel pressure, amd FPR operation.

verify the MAP signal and reading.

I am dubious about the O2 reading. in part because of the probable start up comtamination issue; in part because of the location so close to the end of the pipe; and in part because I don't trust O2s until I verify the readings with an infrared analyzer.

I still wonder about the spark timing. way retarded will kill accel power; and it won't ping.

bottom line for this long distance guessing game:

....a timing problem: either spark or camshaft

....followed by a lean condition: caused by whatever.

....and a wildcard: is the wastegate working?

I'll check back in when I can.

TF

[The Aspirator]

I guess I sounded like a riled up jerk above, but your post kinda pissed me off Stealth. I'm cool now, I had a good nights sleep and I woke up on the right side of the bed. Thanks to all above for posting their suggestions, I will try them all.

jpbturbo, I hadn't thought about that, but it makes perfect sense. I've done the same thing to my car by accident and it idled but drove like crap.... Though I swear that the cam on Erik's car is at top dead center. Next time I'm down there I will remove the valve cover, set it all at TDC, visually SEE if the first two intake lobes are pointing up, then remove the cam gear to check if the pin is sheared off. Those will be great things to try! Can't wait.

Red hot cat......
Okay, I'll describe this in full detail right now. The first time we got the car started we tuned it a little bit, it idled happily on it's own at a high idle and we checked that everything was working right. It was maybe 9pm, the car was halfway out of the garage, so it was kinda bright from the top but still dark out. Then after about 15 minutes I looked underneath and noticed that the cat was glowing noticably, I wasn't looking at a firey inferno, but it was definately noticable. The rest of the exhaust system wasn't glowing at all. We took it for a drive and it was crap. Bah, called it a night. After the next drive we took I noticed that something was smoking underneath the car a little bit. I think the exhaust was melting the undercoating or something like that, it was really bright outside but I don't think anything was glowing. Although it was obvious that the metal on the cat and exhaust was getting discolored, kinda grey. And he's got a SS tip which is nice and polished, now it's got a real gold hue to it.

For the O2 sensor I am using my 5 wire WBO2, I've been using it in my car for maybe 9 months and it worked perfectly every day. It was in Erik's car on startup, I didn't even think about contamination possibilities, although since it's a heated sensor you'd think it could burn stuff off. I don't have another one, but they're only $35-50. Ohh, and the O2 sensor is not connected to megasquirt at all, so MS is only going off of the fuel map I've made for it. I have a display that reads out the AFR, then I tune accordingly. This method works fine. So a flukey sensor won't "make" the car run bad, it'll just read wrong readings and possibly cause me to tune poorly. (and not to sound defensive or cocky, but for the record, I've had MSnS installed on my car for 1 year now, and the wideband for 9 months, so I kinda know a thing or two about it and how to tune it.)

And yeah I actually did verify timing with a timing light. The rotor in the distributor is pointing exactly at the little notch in the housing, basically directly at plug #1. So it's aligned properly. But when I mess with the cam gear I'll quadruple check that all these things are actually at TDC, can never be too thorough :-P .

Spark plugs are 1 week old, I gapped them at .028 upon installation. The other day I removed them and gapped em at .025 to see if that would get rid of the stumble we were getting in boost thinking it might be spark blowout. It did nothing. I installed my MSD coil and MSD wires, also no change.

The wastegate seems to be working fine, we're getting 5-7psi at full throttle, but like, no power.

Megasquirt:
The MAP sensor works, it reads fine in the tuning program. RPM signal is steady and perfect, seems to be spot on with the way the engine sounds (IE cruising at 3k sounds like 3k). Megasquirt does not "need" a driver input in order to control the car well. On my car I have a TPS hooked up, but ALL it does is control the acceleration enrichments, which only kick in when you really romp on it. Erik's car does not have a TPS yet, cause the car should drive just fine without those enrichments. Coolant temp is necessary below 160*F to activate the warmup enrichments, and that sensor works. And the intake temp sensor works too. Both of them read between 40-60*F when the car is cold, which is about consistent with the outside temperature.

I don't think it's running lean. The wideband says nice and rich (could be off I guess), and I got to drive behind him the other day after we ran out of gas. It was dark out but I'm pretty sure that I could see some black smoke coming out the downpipe when he accelerated. And the car likes to stumble and go "pop" alot, driving behind it at night showed that a nice little yellow flameball shoots out the DP when this happens. Looked cool! :)





Bottom line, since I say the ignition timing is accurate, my money is on the camshaft timing. Dunno how or why, but that makes the most sense. It hadn't occured to me untill today. I might even take the adjustable cam gear from my car and toss it on there, it'll go 6* advanced or retarded in increments of 2 (Dale's gear).

THANKS GUYS!! We'll get this figured out, I know we will. I REALLY appreciate all the help, I I just don't take negative criticism well at all.

[Wagner]

I tried to search through your previous posts to find out that which cam you're using. So are you using A-cam?

If so, how have you timed it? And while timing it, how was the TDC determined? Did you just use the markings on the block?

[245gti]

I tried to search through your previous posts to find out that which cam you're using. So are you using A-cam?

If so, how have you timed it? And while timing it, how was the TDC determined? Did you just use the markings on the block? (or have you just thrown the camshaft in without measuring anything?)

Using the stock gear should make timing the cam relatively easy, no? Line up the notch on the gear with the notch on the backing plate and you're at TDC... If the pin is sheared off, the gear means nothing, obviously. One has to assume that it's wasn't sheared when it was installed so, provided everything was installed in the correct order, it would be kinda hard to get that wrong.

Now, if the cam was set at TDC and then the crank or distributor were messed with, it's possible that the belt got put on wrong. The crank and distributor may be aligned but the cam is off a tooth or two.

John, is your timing cover still off? You should be able to see where the cam is with the timing light. Mark the TDC notch on the gear with white chalk and watch where it is in relation to the notch on the backing plate with the timing light. It'll give you some idea if it's at least close...

[The Aspirator]

We've got the B-cam in there. To set it all at TDC, we're looking at the notch in the plate behind the crank pulley to line up with the casting mark on the seal housing. Then the dot on the intermediate shaft gear lines up with the notch in the rear timing belt cover (and the dizzy rotor points at contact #1). And for the camshaft the dot on the cam gear lines up with the marking on the valve cover.

When the cam was installed I verified that it was at TDC visually, both #1 and 2 lobes were pointing up, like at 10 and 2 o'clock. BUT, say for example the locating pin sheared off during our whole wrong bearing cap mistake, the cam gear might actually be a few degrees off and causing this whole problem. I've got an e-mail out to my brother to check this out and call me, he's just gotta wake up first (lazy ass... ;-) ).

Keep the suggestions rolling in.

*edit for dale*
The pin was perfect when installing the gear and cam, but who knows, maybe it's broken now. I'll just have Erik set everything at TDC and verify the actual camshaft position.

[Wagner]

While using A-cam in turbo-application i time it so that when engine is in TDC the intake valve of the fourth cylinder is 0,8mm open. When i do this I determine the REAL and ABSOLUTE TDC by measuring it.

Using stock stuff one can use the marks and it usually works fine. When buying aftermarket cams one usually gets a card where the specifications of the cam are told, in them also the correct cam timing. When using such cams it is strongly advisable to measure and verify things, not assume that it's right.

Not to mention the fact that grinding the cyl.head gasket surface flat also alters the cam timing (crank/cam ratio changes, cause the head becomes shorter).

So i guess my point is that it's always better to verify things rather than assume that they are OK. It is not possible to break anything by over-verifying things.

[Captain Bondo]

Did you put a wallbro in? Based on the symptoms it might be that the fuel pressure is taking a dump as soon as you get on it- an old dead intank pump "sock" will do this. Idles and revs ok until you load it up. I know the o2 says it's all ok but it's about the only other thing that could cause it other than timing. Anyways if you haven't pulled the sender it's worth a look.

[The Aspirator]

Wagner thanks for the cool info. Ken we haven't touched the fuel pumps at all. So yeah, when we test the fuel gauge maybe we'll crack open the tank and check out that sock. Although I don't think there was really a fueling problem before, well a year ago back when the 'ol B21ft was doing good. I can definately hear the fuel pump(s) turn on and flow fuel, so I know we do have pressure. Think a fuel pressure gauge would be a worthy investment for my arsenal of tools?

[The Aspirator]

Checked the spark plugs and 1/3/4 were black, while 2 was alot whiter. These are like a week old. So it's likely that injector 2 is flowing a little bit, enough to idle well, but not enough to drive well. And since my wideband is reading happy, my guess is that the three good cylinders are really rich, and the one cylinder is really lean, so they all suck. Yesterday I removed the CFI's and installed a known good set of green tops.

Also looked at the cam and took the cam gear off, everything was perfect. So our problem doesn't lie there.

I felt and smelled the oil on the dipstick looking for fuel, smelled none. We'll change it anyways and note the consistency of it when it comes out.

That's about as far as we got, the car was outside and it started pouring down rain so we called it a night. Anyways, here's a pic of the engine:

http://www.j2mediagroup.com/john/Erik-b21ft49.jpg

[945ti]

Sam (deathwagon) had that happen on hs big RX injectors. Sounds like you might well have caught it before it cost you an engine. He adjusted his similarly till it ended up being real rich on some cyls and lean on others, and his WB showed pretty normal ballpark AFRs according to him and kenny. Sounds great that you found it. having injectors flowed and tested might be $40-50 very well spent. I think rc-engeneering will even pay shipping if you send them to them.

[The Aspirator]

Yeah Matt also mentioned to me that Sam and Kenny were experiencing a similar problem. I too am really starting to realize why some people preach about getting these injectors cleaned and flowed, it would be money WELL spent.

[stealthfti]

the comp test readings, while not ideal, are indicative that there is some compression...a good thing.

the idle vacuum of 9 inches Hg, on the other hand, tells much more.

such low vacuum readings indicate the problem location.

IF:
...the spark and fuel are working right, and what you report would so indicate;
...if the cam timing is correct, ditto;
...if there is no exhaust restriction;
...you did not leave any paper towels wadded up in the intake runners [stuffed in there to keep dust out] when you bolted on the intake;
...if fuel pressure is right;

then it looks to be one of three possibles:
...something might be off at the crank gear area. [not my main suspicion, but worthy of note and verification]

...valve clearance on the too tight side. [again, not my main suspicion, but to be verified]

...valve stem to guide clearances too tight. my main suspicion.

to test for that:

set motor to TDC; remove timing belt. remove cam shaft.

rotate crank counterclockwise [backwards] about 45 degrees; to avoid valve to piston contact.

manually depress each valve to see how freely the valve will go down AND come back up.

you do have to overcome the spring tension. but all the valves should go down and come back up the same.

I doubt that you have the tool used to replace the valve springs in-head/on car. That would be very assistive at this point. But figure out a way to try each valve. And DO take notice that all the valves are about the same height; ie, that the valve stem tips are about the same position in the lifter bucket bore.

I suspect too tight valve stem to guide clearance because of the fallacious tendency to get all worked up over valve stem to guide clearances that exceed two thou. On an NA motor, that might almost be justifiable. On a boost [redblock] motor, valve stem to guide clearance NEEDS to be two thou to four thou. If I have three thou, I am a happy camper. only if exceeding six thou do I get worked up.

Check it out John.

[and you might check your paperwork or call the MS to see what the valve stem to guide clearances were measured at, or knurled to]

AND, as usual with LD diagnostic attempts, it could be something else.

TF

[The Aspirator]

Thank you! As you well know, the head had a full rebuild with new valve guides. I did not get a clearance # from my machine shop, nor did I supply one. So I'm looking forward to doing the test that you suggested and I will post the results. The cam rotates quite nicely when putting a socket on the front and spinning it, but that doesn't really tell me if a valve is sticking or not. Your method will.

Also I haven't checked the valve clearances since I first installed the cam, they were 16 intake 18 exhaust (maybe the other way around?). I'll do a quickie measure for this before I take the cam out.

Also Matt suggested to me that I should toss in a T-cam, as the B-cam might have more overlap than my engine likes to deal with. It's a shot.

I'm a lot more calm and collected about this whole thing now, it doesn't bother me that the car isn't running. Just gotta systematically try one thing after another :-D , I'm actually having fun doing it.

[The Aspirator]

I'll be at the car all day today, so I will try everything that's been mentioned.

I removed the cam and did the test to push down the valves by hand. The best method I found was to use my socket wrench with a 17mm socket at the end and put it on top of the upper spring cap, then push down as hard as I could (without slipping and impaling my hand on a stud...). With this method I could push each one down maybe 1/4" -1/2". Every one seemed to respond quickly and smoothly, NO STICKING whatsoever. They all were at the same height when I removed the buckets, and everything looks to be in order. Also, before removal of the buckets I tested to see if they would all rotate smoothly, after an initial stick they all rotated just fine. So does our problem not lie here? Next I'm going to run to my machine shop and ask if he has records of the work he did to this engine, hopefully I can find out what clearances he gave the valve guides, and maybe how much he decked the block and head.

[stealthfti]

I suspect the valves being tight in the guides [but less so now]. BUT, before you pull the head, DO try to eliminate as many other possibles as you can.

one thing that does make me wonder a bit: when you say low idle vacuum, are you going by the MS reading of the MAP sensor, or are you actually reading a calibrated vacuum gauge that is hooked up to the intake manifold?

I would want to 'see' the vacuum reading on a 'real' gauge. And that would be a way to verify that your MAP sensor is reading accurately, and being read accurately by Fred.

Pulling the head back off is something that I would want to make sure was really really necessary before doing it.

The Bcam does have considerable more overlap than does the Tcam. Actually the Tcam has essentially NO overlap [if you go by the 'fifty thou of valve lift' specs]. But as loose as you have the valve lash at, I tend to doubt that the overlap of the Bcam is the culprit. But if you wanna try the Tcam, I don't see that as bad at all. I'll put it this way: if you want good and high idle vacuum, the Tcam is the one to have in there.

From your description of the 'depressing the valves to check for binding' test that you performed, I am less inclined to see the stem clearances as being too tight. Not totally un-inclined, because you did the test on a cold motor. But enough un-inclined to suggest looking elsewhere first.

Hook up a real vacuum gauge.

And do verify that the gear and T-belt guides at the crank are where they are supposed to be. why so? because if the idle vacuum reading you report is accurate, then the low idle vac, along with the lack of accel and power on accel really does indicate that something is outta time....if everything else is right.

Keep checking out and eliminating the possibles.

TF

[The Aspirator]

Alrighty, we made a lot of progress yesterday. Here's what I did:

-Installed 357 injectors, visually checked that they don't leak with fuel pressure and that they all squirt when asked to. They're good

-Installed the exhaust system again, this will make the wideband readings more believable. (even though the system hangs like 2" off the ground, were gonna take it to a shop and have the pros tuck it up)

-Checked for valve stickage on a cold engine, seemed to be none.

-installed my MSD plug wires, cause his sucked and I broke one.

-Installed the T-cam

-Went to my machine shop and talked with him for a while. He told me that he couldn't remember what he set the valve stem clearances to, but he "usually" likes to put them at 1.5 thou. He also suggested a bunch of things for me to check, but most of them have already been covered. He agrees with everybody else, sounds like timing, either cam or ignition.

-re-installed the timing belt, making sure that everything was straight up and right as rain. Though I noticed a weird thing, the crank and intermediate shaft were perfectly lined up with their marks, though the dimple in the camshaft gear seemed to be maybe 3mm counter-clockwise from the notch in the valve cover. I took a picture of it to show you but left my camera in Erik's car (dumb).

What I'm wondering is this, since both the head and block were decked, and we don't know by how much, what if the cam is noticably closer to the crankshaft, therefore retarding the cam alot at TDC???????? Wouldn't this cause our problem? Tomorrow I'm going back there, and we'll take the adjustable cam gear off of my car (Dale's) and put it on his car at 6* advanced. See if that helps our problem at all.

****************

After doing all the changes above, we started it up. Get this, bone cold engine, it starts up within a few seconds and idles all by itself at 1500, then I turned the thumbscrew down alot and it idled smooth as butter at 800rpm! It was pulling 40kpa vacuum at idle, which is quite respectable. Also he's got a stock 240 boost gauge inside, with one of Dave Barton's calibrated white faces on it. It showed about 16" of vac and is consistent with the megasquirt MAP sensor. So it idles!! YAY! Smoothly too! Throttle response seems to be pretty good too. After maybe 10 minutes of idling I looked underneath at the exhaust, not glowing, good lets take it for a drive.

So we do. It's got more low end grunt than before, but still doesn't accelerate well at all. And it hits a huge "wall" at about 4000rpm, it's like a rev limiter, won't let us go higher. The megasquirt rev limiter is set at 5500 so it's not that, and the timing up there is decent, so it's not that. It was about 7pm now, so just getting dark. After about 15 minutes of driving around and enjoying the quiet exhaust system but not enjoying the lack of power, we noticed some sparks coming from the back of the car.... Hummm, exhaust isn't dragging so what is it? We pull over, look underneath, the cat and front muffler are glowing RED hot again! I wish I had a picture but I forgot my camera in the shop. It was pretty dark out, and this was a glowing inferno, bright red. We checked the engine bay, pitch black. The manifold/turbo/downpipe weren't glowing at ALL. So the glowing started at the cat, and progressed back about 3 feet to the front of the first muffler then fadded back. After maybe 8 minutes of being off, it wasn't glowing anymore so we drove it home. Of course it was glowing again when we got there.

What if the cam is somehow retarded alot? It would cause this exact problem right? Well, I'll advance it 6* tomorrow and see what that does. I guess we'll check the plugs again and see what they look like too.

Thanks for the help!

[GTJordan]

I know this is stupid question and all.... Dunno if its been suggested... but your cat isn't plugged is it?

Jordan

[klr142]

The manifold/turbo/downpipe weren't glowing at ALL. So the glowing started at the cat, and progressed back about 3 feet to the front of the first muffler then fadded back.
I find that odd... How is that possible(that the manifold/turbo/downpipe aren't glowing)? I'm pretty sure that cat is now worthless... How big is that exhaust system? It sounds like it's plugged... (sorry if it's been discussed before, this IS a LONG thread...) Maybe the cat got burned up and is now clogged and not allowing you to make power above 4krpm, nor have much power at all. When the cat was glowing, did the turbo spool up reasonably fast still? If so then it couldn't have been blocked at the cat...

About the cam causing the problems, I don't think decking the block and shaving the head makes too much of a difference? Or maybe it does? Not as much as a pushrod motor where you have to change the lengths of the pushrods in such a situation, but yeah... Hmmm, I dunno? I was thinking that if the T cam is advanced it might run out of steam before it normally would? Maybe? I unno, professionals resume... :-D Keep it up man! w00! ALMOST THERE!

[The Aspirator]

It's a full 3" exhaust system, cat is BRAND new with this engine. Even with an open downpipe we still have NO power, though with the open DP I have no idea of the exhaust is super hot or not, cause nothing glows. Humm, maybe it's time to gut the cat..... As you said it might be dead now anyways. The turbo still spooled up normally and gave us 5-7 psi, just no power.

[740ATL]

-

[Stereophile33]

in the thread aspirator has taken off the cat and exhaust to see if that was the problem.

Still had power issues after removing the cat.

And guys, remember, in order to build a great turbo motor, you build using great N/A techniques. This motor has nice squish and I think is better than most N/A rebuilds. If it causes a problem with a N/A it will only get worse once you equate the turbo. So I think a tight squish motor is going to be more picky about cam timing, overlap and valve height.

[klr142]

in the thread aspirator has taken off the cat and exhaust to see if that was the problem.
He then put it back on and that is what got red this time...

So yeah, John, didn't you say that the last time(before this most recent time) you ran with an open downpipe and the manifold and turbo got really red as well? But this time when you had the exhaust on, and after you made some changes, the manifold/turbo stayed normal but the exhaust burned up. I think you should really just try running with everything open, but preferably get a downpipe and some other tubing on there so you guys don't kill yourselves in the process. Your EGT is obviously wack... Hmm didily... I dunno! Good luck!

[stealthfti]

Well John, it sounds like you are zeroing in on the sources of the problem.

1) the valve stem to guide clearance of 1.5 thou is near the minimum for the intakes, and way too tight for the exhausts:

...intakes minimum are 1.2 thou; allowable to 2.4 thou; and max before getting antsy at 6 thou.

...exhausts are minimum at 2.4 thou; allowable to 3.5 thou; and max before getting antsy at 6 thou.

The intakes are too snug; the exhausts are way too snug.

the specs are in the green manual.

As I said, I like three thou, intake and exhaust. That way I do not have problems with binding or galling. And no, there won't be a problem with oil control.

[and a lot of this goes back to what you can do and get away with NA, but not with a boost motor because of the heat. Narrow valve seat widths put a lot more heat into the stems. The stems grow more. You have to have the clearance to accomodate that. Correction: you have to have the clearance to accomodate the heat with valve seat widths done wide enough for boosted. Going narrower on the seat widths puts more heat load on the stems, so the clearances needed are more than the allowable. But people do not take the heat load into account...]

[which then brings up the question of how wide the seats are after the three angle valve job...]

valve seat width specs are also in the green manual. I go middle high on seat widths.

Re the cam timing after the decking of the block and head. With about .120in retard on the cam gear, that looks like considerably more than 6 degrees of retard. I thought that you had said that you were installing one of Dale's gears. Going 6 advanced with the gear off yours may just bring you back to straight up. You will probably need to have Dale drill you one that will go to 12 advanced.

If the cam is retarded 6 or more as is, then that would account for some of the complaints. And retarding a Tcam 6 or more would be really not good. The Tcam is so lacking in overlap that I believe it is best at straight up; with 2 degrees either way being the max variation.

The Bcam retarded 6 or more would really hurt the bottom end/ mid range.

The 'wall' you describe is probably part of the Tcam's charms. The Tcam poops out at 4000 on a motor with reasonably open exhaust. BTDT Add in some serious retard and it probably becomes more of a slamming into the wall, instead of just running out of steam.

Jordan has a valid point...to be checked out. And you may be on the rich side still. But running retarded will make it worse. Perhaps a piece of straight pipe in place of the cat...until things are resolved.

Try the advanced wheel and see. It may also help you determine just how much advance you will need to get back to straight up; and then how much to get some more.

I think the head will have to come off to open up the guides. Others may disagree. I would work out things the best possible before pulling the head.

Unless the head was seriously decked, the Tcam should not be interference. But with an Acam or Bcam, it will be. Having an exhaust valve seize at full open is not nice to contemplate with an A or Bcam in there.

You are on track

TF

[Wagner]

Does your MegaSquirt get good RPM signal?

Did you verify that when the crankshaft is in it's TDC mark the engine really is in TDC?

You do have a distributor fitted, right? Have you checked that the rotor and the distributor cap's conductors align so that the spark has the possibility to leap? That possibility should be available at all timing conditions. Is the distro in correct position relative to the rotor?Could it be so that when idling they do align, but once under boost and revs they no longer do because the timing has changed but the their position relative to each other has not? You have locked the distributors centrifugal weights, right?

Would it be possible for you to try the car with a standard ignition system from some redblock turbo engine (like b21et, though the compression on your brothers engine is a lot higher, is it not?)

[The Aspirator]

KLR142, the manifold/turbo/DP has never glowed on us, just the cat and exhaust when it's on.

Thanks Thomas, that brings things into perspective. Now I'm NOT saying with all certainty that the valves ARE 1.5thou.... All the MS said was that he "likes" to put them there. He coulndn't remember where he put mine. He also said that some guides come with good enough clearances so he doesn't touch them. If worse comes to worse it's not a huge deal to pull the head and get he guides reamed out to give us 3 thou on all 8.

(next time I do an engine, I'm making sure the guy writes down every single clearance and number throughout the whole process ;-) , live and learn)

We'll try 6* advanced on the cam gear, I've only got one adjustable gear and that's on my car, but we'll use it. If this helps our problem then I'm sure I can bribe Dale into drilling us one with like 4,6,8,10,12,14* of advance.

Eeek, interference motor and sticky valves.... sounds like trouble. But the T-cam should be alright in there for a little bit. The car seems to behave the same when cold as when hot, so I'm not sure if the valves are sticking at all when hot, even with such high EGT's.

Alright alright, I'll go ahead and re-work the exhaust system and put a straight pipe in place of the cat, though I suck at exhaust work :roll: .

*********
Wagner,
MS does get a nice clean RPM signal, when it reads 1000rpm the engine is idling at 1000, and 4000 sounds like 4000, plus it's acting normally, no jumping or anything.

I have verified that when the notch on the crank pulley is at TDC, the #1 piston is also exactly at TDC.

The distributor is also lined up. Matt suggested a great test that we tried. Take an old dizzy cap, cut a big hole between the 1 and 2 terminals so you wan watch inside. Put the timing light on #1 wire, start the car, shine the light at the rotor. The strobe will freeze frame the rotor when it fires, and it'll show you if it's firing when pointing directly at the terminal or before/after. Everything looks fine, seems to be firing more or less directly at the terminal even when revving it up. So it's obviously not waaaayy off.

This distributor does not have the vacuum port that changes timing with boost like a B21FT dizzy does, so it stays locked at all times, only MS changes the timing.

Our compression ratio is approximately 9.2:1

[klr142]

KLR142, the manifold/turbo/DP has never glowed on us, just the cat and exhaust when it's on.

Alright alright, I'll go ahead and re-work the exhaust system and put a straight pipe in place of the cat, though I suck at exhaust work :roll:
Ic ic, musta misread something up there... And about the exhaust, you could just toss on some flexible pipe from a local autoparts store for now and route it out the side, use a cothes hanger to hold it up, then when you get it all figgerd out put your other exhaust back on with a new cat.

[Wagner]

This distributor does not have the vacuum port that changes timing with boost like a B21FT dizzy does, so it stays locked at all times, only MS changes the timing.


But distributors usually also have centrifugal weights which alter the ignition timing in relation to engine speed. I don't know about MegaSquirt but on all other engine management systems, which use a distributor for delivering spark those weights have to be locked for the system to function properly.

But if you do get a good alignment between rotor and cap even on higher RPM that can't be the problem.

[The Aspirator]

The dizzy we all use for Megasquirt is an LH2.2 dizzy, and I'm quite positive that it doesn't have weights that would alter the angle. But you bring up a very valid point for people who are using weighted distributors.


While using A-cam in turbo-application i time it so that when engine is in TDC the intake valve of the fourth cylinder is 0,8mm open. When i do this I determine the REAL and ABSOLUTE TDC by measuring it.
How do you measure that the intake valve is .8mm open when the head is installed? This is very interesting to me, cause I'm getting pretty confident that my cam timing is off. This would help me zero in on exactly how much, and what kind of adjustable gear to use.

One thing that JUST occured to me. When I took my block to the machine shop, basically all I told him was to deck it so the piston is outta the hole 12thou. Soooooo maybe he had to chop quite a bit off to achieve this..... :e-shrug: Thus altering the cam timing a huge ammount??

[Wagner]

How do you measure that the intake valve is .8mm open when the head is installed?


I don't know the name of that tool in english, but it's a measuring device that has a clock-like face and needle on it. The same device can be used to determine the TDC accurately when the top is off. It could be called dial gauge, but i'm not sure about the name.

[Matt Dupuis]

Thomas' suggestion that your cam is too retarded is a good one. Also there is the possibility of your valves being too tight. The T cam also has lots of bottom end and not much top end. I wouldn't jump to either of those conclusions immediately, though.

You decked the block a great deal - sometimes the factory has the pistons pretty far down the hole, so to get +.015" you've got to take quite a bit off. However, I don't think that's anywhere near 6* - I don't have a cam gear nearby so I can't do the math, so it might be. Keep in mind that you're affecting the angle of the cam, but it's really crank degrees we're worried about. Still, a too-retarded cam will kill off bottom end torque more than top end, though it will kill 'em both off.

The valves may be too tight - John, you said that it does this cold, but the valves heat up pretty quickly so you might not be able to get it up to 4000 RPM before they warm up enough. However, I've rebuilt a couple of heads with "normal" machine shop tolerances, and none of them have sticky valve problems. If you were to do a hot compression check, and I mean a HOT one, you'd probably spot a sticky valve pretty easily.

I'm using a T cam in my engine right now, and it pulls strong to 5500 RPM, where I've set my rev limiter due to an undesirable water pump situation. I'm confident that it would pull to at least 6000. It does this with aid from the ported head, the B23E intake, the 90+ exhaust, .63 turbine, and 3" exhaust, all of which you've got on your car. Therefore, I don't believe this cam is your problem.

FWIW, the glowing cat comes from it doing it's job, of burning unburned hydrocarbons. This is because your engine isn't burning them internally. Yes, it might be melted now, but I wouldn't gut it automatically - pull it, put it aside, and replace it with a straight pipe, like Tom and I have been suggesting. Keep your exhaust, because that's very important to how an O2 sensor works. It wouldn't have failed just from using a bit too much WD-40 on the cylinder walls, which probably would have taken your O2 sensor with it had that been the case.

What kind of duty cycles are you seeing with your #357 injectors? What kind of AFRs are you seeing? Have you checked the plugs since you've changed the injectors, to see if your rich-rich-rich-lean condition is gone? I'm not asking these questions because I think you've got a fuel problem - I'm asking these questions 'cause I think you've got an ignition problem.

And I still think it's an ignition problem, but it might be that sticky valve situation Tom suggested. However, with the jump in idle vacuum from 70 kPa to 40 kPa due to a cam and an injector change, that's a positive sign. 40 kPa isn't enough vacuum for that cam, BTW, but that might be because of the cam retard built into your motor, or it might be because of what's really causing this issue.

I still say you should try your 124 module and your megasquirt in Erik's car. Those are the only things (besides the long block) that you haven't changed.

[Wagner]

Bear in mind that the 0,8 mm is only correct in the situation where the A-cam is used. I don't know what would be good for a B-cam or a T-cam.

(i'm not saying that 0,8 mm is the only truth in this matter. It's not my own idea, but i have found that it does work on a turbocharged engine, and i have been told by other too that it works)

[The Aspirator]

Thanks Matt. Earlier this morning I was just thinking of doing a HOT compression test, great minds think a like. We'll do a few things first, but after we take it for a good drive I'll check compression.

This "wall" I'm talking about at 4000rpm, it's not just a drop in power, it's like a hardass rev limiter, we can't get higher than it.

I'm heading down to work on the car this afternoon. I'll try my adjustable cam gear in all different positions. I'll remove the cat and throw in a straight pipe, and tuck the system higher so it doesn't drag on everything.

Not sure what duty cycles these 357's are seeing, I keep forgetting to look at that gauge. As for AFR's, I'm tuning it similar to what I tune my car, just a bit safer. 14-15 cruise, 12 in boost. Haven't checked the plugs yet, will do today.

I will also toss in my megasquirt computer, just in case for some weird reason it is causing all this crap. Talk to y'all tonight!

John

[Morley]

You got an oscilloscope? Maybe there's too much interference from the magnetic pickup/hall sensor or whatever your using. My Haltech uses shielded cable there, prolly not without reason....

Rising or falling edge trigger? Also important at high rpms...or maybe your wires are so bad they have become inductive???

[The Aspirator]

Nope I don't have an oscilloscope (and I don't really know what it is... but a quick search told me it measures stuff like coils, knocksensors, etc...)

All my wiring is brand new, but it's not shielded. I was debating whether or not to use shielded, but others are driving fine without it.

I'm off to do some work, wish me luck!

[linuxman51]

o scopes measure all sorts of cool ****... dwel, cycles, voltage, a/c waves, square waves, etc. Used frequently for finding "noise" in circuits (at least thats what folks on msefi use theirs for hahaha)

[coldfusion21]

i cant really help much, but this i can say. when i did the headgasket on my car the first time i had a bear of time figuring out why i was shooting flames out my exhuast and the car wouldnt make any power. my timing was off like 80 something degrees (PO dumbsh*t replaced the distro and didnt line it up right, just made it work for them) anyways, sounds just like what your saying. i would definatly play around with the cam timing, retarding it as much as possible, seeing if that helps.

good luck

[Morley]

Is that 4000RPM limit very regular and consistent? You can't "fool" the engine into higher rpm's, in neutral and at half throttle etc?

If so, it's 99% a ignition problem.

Are you using a MSD 6A or 6AL? If AL, is the RPM limiter properly set up? Ie. 4, not 8 cylinders?

Sorry for stupid questions, just wonna try to help :-P

[The Aspirator]

Hey guys, stupid questions and suggestions are where it's at! I'm open to anything at this point.

We're not using an MSD, we're using a Bosch 139 ignition module/power stage. The megasquat rev limiter is set at 5000rpm. We've tried to "fool" the engine in to higher rpm's, but even at idle it hits that wall.

Think it's ignition timing eh?? Well then, maybe it's time to swap megasquirt computers from my car into his, including all my ignition stuff. Even though everything "seems" to be right and proper, maybe its an invisible thing that's killing me, like something on the MS board that I did wrong. Who knows.

We DEFINATELY did too many mods at once.....:roll: But I didn't hear any of you guys stopping me throughout the process! :-P hahahahaha.

[The Aspirator]

Okay lets see if I can remember what all I did today...

First we installed my adjustable cam gear, it goes 2/4/6 retard, 2/4/6 advanced. We tried 6* retarded, it wasn't idling or revving so hot at all. We then tried 6* advanced, BINGO, it really liked that. Then for run we tried ~13* advanced. I actually advanced it one whole tooth (~19*) then used the gear to retard it to ~13* advanced. Sneaky eh? The car really liked this setting. It idled VERRRRY nicely, pulled 35-40 kpa at idle, and revved up quickly and smooth.

But we're still hitting that power wall at 4,000rpm!!!!!!!!!!!! We figured out that while driving, if pushing the throttle slowly and lightly, we can gently ease past it to about 5000rpm. But it has to be done very gently or else it's like the whole car dies. ALL power is lost and the engine almost dies if you try to push the gas more than say 15% when above 3,500rpm. It's quite weird. Now we're not using a TPS sensor, so these numbers are guesswork. And the megasquirt is only using the MAP sensor as the user feedback device, but our acceleration enrichments are quite tame.

So advancing the cam that much definately helped with smoothness, responsiveness, and low end driveability. I would rank the low end power at just below half decent. It's there but it doesn't pull by any stretch of the imagination. Top end is nil.

Ohh and the cat is toast, littlerally. I haven't gotten the chance to remove the exhaust yet, but bits and peices of CAT innards were litterally being spewed out the back of the exhaust. Some pieces were quite sizeable too, maybe the size of a grape. Lots of little white specs and grid looking things. If it's not hollow already, it's well on it's way.

After driving for about 25 minutes I checked under the car for red-hot-cat syndrome. It was quite bright out, so I stuck my hand 1" away from the cat. It was very warm, but I could hold my hand there all day long and not get burnt. So I doubt it was red hot anymore.

Then we started having some WEIRD problems. When messing with various settings the car would unexpectedly die on us and was a pain to start back up again, even with the old settings. It started bucking and refusing to accelerate (worse than before. Before we could make it to 40mph decently..). The wideband was reading REALLY lean whereas before it was reading normal and happy. Then we crossed a small bridge and started up a small hill when the car died and wouldnt' start again. So we were stuck with a dead car on an incline just past a tight bridge... I pushed it backwards across the bridge onto the side of the road, we got it started luckily, wideband was reading like 30 AFR which is soooouper lean, then got it up the hill and home. Barely.

It seemed like we ran outta gas, but we put in $15 bucks 40 miles ago. The fuel pumps did sound alot different, so either it is outta gas and they're sucking dry, or one of them has failed. Ohh and the fuel gauge is refusing to cooperate with us, it just reads full all the time. Same with the temp gauge. :rofl: (I do trust the megasuirt readings though).

Then we got it home and did a hot engine compression check. It wasn't as blistering hot as I would have liked, but I couldn't touch the plugs they were so hot.
175 175 175 175
And the plugs were interesing. 1 and 4 were "normal" colored, kinda white-ish. 2 was black dry and 3 was black wet.... Odd.

Also we installed my megasquirt computer, it made NO change in anything. Next up is to install my ignition module, as it's about the only thing we haven't touched yet. I'm tempted to go buy an MSD 6a. But just installing my module should determine if that's a problem area or not.

Thanks again guys,
John

[stylngle2003]

dont you like NEED a TPS to run MSnS? could that be the source of your problemos?

[Morley]

dont you like NEED a TPS to run MSnS? could that be the source of your problemos?

I forgot to hook up the TPS on my Haltech a week ago, and I got problems just like Aspirators.

My Haltech uses the map-sensor for load-sensing...and the TPS for throttle acceleration enrichment.

[adrianpike]

dont you like NEED a TPS to run MSnS? could that be the source of your problemos?

No, you don't. I use MAPDot for acceleration enrichments, and it works just fine.

[The Aspirator]

Adrian's right, you don't "need" a TPS to run megasquat. It only affects the acceleration enrichments (like when you punch the gas quickly). Although.... maybe that's the reason the car seems to die when pushing the gas pedal too hard. Adrian, what are your mapdot acceleration enrichment settings?? And what version are you running? I think we're on 411. Bah, maybe I just need to go buy a B230 throttle body so we can run a real TPS.

[Matt Dupuis]

Wait a minute - you're tuning your car for the first time, with the acceleration enrichment turned on??? And you're running MAPdot? Uh oh... I assume you've looked at the acceleration enrichment light/gauge to see if it's triggering madly due to some intake pulsation, RIGHT???

I had to turn my MAPdot to 2.5 or therabouts to get the false enrichment out of my car under boost.

[adrianpike]

Adrian's right, you don't "need" a TPS to run megasquat. It only affects the acceleration enrichments (like when you punch the gas quickly). Although.... maybe that's the reason the car seems to die when pushing the gas pedal too hard. Adrian, what are your mapdot acceleration enrichment settings?? And what version are you running? I think we're on 411. Bah, maybe I just need to go buy a B230 throttle body so we can run a real TPS.
My acceleration enrichments aren't tuned in very well, but it's totally driveable, I just can't mash the pedal too hard or it stumbles. As soon as my VE tables are tuned (they're getting close! :x: ) I'm going to move on to getting my accel. enrichments dialed in. It took me a fair while to get it so it wouldn't grumble around at idle with the enrichments, and that cleared up the idle a ton, but didn't really make any difference for actual driving.
I'd just kill the accel. enrichment entirely, to eliminate yet another variable.
Hang on, I actually have my laptop with me, I'll grab you my accel. stuff, although I'd bet that you're getting some weird pulses with that crazy-ass intake manifold, which would throw my numbers out teh window.
*shuffle shuffle shuffle*
TPSdot threshold: 0.781
Accel time 0.4s
Cold Accel Enrichment 4.0ms
Cold Accel Mult% 130
BINS:
2: 2.0
4: 5.0
8: 10.5
16: 15.0

I'm totally open to anybody who's got numbers that would fit better, mine are barely beyond the level of educated guesses, but it works, and the car drives, idles, and scoots.

[The Aspirator]

Thanks Adrian. Matt, when we first started the car it wouldn't drive well at all without AE, so I added some in and it helped. Although I don't think I've messed with it much since. But I have been watching the AE gauge and noting when it trips. I don't think it's flailing around wildly, it seems to be behaving itself, but I'll make sure to take a closer look at it and try turning it off. Yet another variable that needs to be dealt with, thanks for bringing it up!

I just ordered a set of Ian's MSD plug wires, so they should be here soon. Also I will definately try my 124 ignition module next time I'm working on the car. Between the AE and the module, something's gotta make it better, right?!?!?!

[Captain Bondo]

Yup, i really think it's a spark issue. Has a car come into work with the EXACT same issue. If you revved it up fast it'd totally kill itself. Idled ok, you could rev it if you revved it slow, but if you gave it any load it'd just croak. Pinged and went weird like it was going lean like a load signal problem. It only did it hot. Cap and rotor cured it of all things. Never would have guessed it except that it eventually died completely and had spark at the coil and none at the plug. Cap'n'rotor would have been the first things to be replaced just on spec but it was a us car with the oddball stuff which is a pita to get here so I tried a lot of other things first. The parts even looked good visually. So anyways make sure all of the ignition components are totally up to spec.

[The Aspirator]

Cool Ken, good advice. The cap is new but the rotor is a little old (still looks good). We'll replace it. We've been using my MSD wires lately so it's not that. Also we'll toss in my MSD coil if it comes down to it again. But I'm really starting to suspect the module. (by the way, answer my PM! :-P)

[Captain Bondo]

Yeah do it, we had a 16v v do the same thing too come to think of it, was a tiny crack in the rotor. I'll shoot ya a pm soon. Just need a good chunk of time to process and respond coherently. :)

[grebnut]

You get this sucker running right yet, John? I'm curious as all hell. What's the status? Later,

Ben

[The Aspirator]

Hey guys, haven't got to work on it much latetly. One thing I did try though was I installed the stock K-jet distributor and black box to control the ignition. Seemed to work well cause we got a good spark signal, but then megasquirt was getting a REALLY sloppy RPM signal from the coil and bouncing all over the place. So tomorrow I'll going to install a shielded wire for the RPM signal, that might just do it!

If this problem was ignition related, this HAS to fix it. And we'll toss on a new rotor too. Stay tuned and cross your fingers... :lol:

[adrianpike]

Fingers crossed for ya buddy, best of luck!

[The Aspirator]

:-D

:-D

:-D
We installed the K-jet ignition system, ran a shielded wire from the coil negative to the megasquirt, made the neccessary changes and started 'er up. BAM! Frickin GREAT throttle response and rev up speed, seems to work JUST like it's supposed to. Took it for a drive, awesome power down low, just like it should be. UNTIL.......

3,200rpm. At 3,200rpm everything stops. And I'm not joking, it sucks. Rev it up to 3.2 and the engine just cuts out, as if the spark had been completely cut. The engine still spins but is really quiet, the car stops accelerating forward, NO response from throttle input, nada. Say we're accelerating from 2k up, once we get to 3.2 with the exact same throttle position, it just cuts out, flooring it does nothing. Revs drop to 3.1 and it goes again for a split second! As a matter of fact now that I think about it, we're getting 10psi at just over 2000rpm, damn that's cool!!!

But aside from that, and the exhaust hanging 1" off the ground, IT'S INCREDIBLE!!!!! A beastly ammount of power down low, holy cow. With just 5-10psi and below 3000rpm, dayum. This car is totally driveable below that point too, so we're feeling really good, like we've made alot of progress. So what can this be? Could it be because our T-cam is advanced 13*? We'll dial it back tomorrow, maybe even retard it some. Maybe at this setting, the wrong valves are open at the wrong time by 3k rpm, so combustion just doesn't have a chance to build pressure.

Could it be something weird in the K-jet ignition system? I dunno. Is the coil crap? We'll toss in my MSD coil for a test.

Just got another set of MSD plug wires so he doesn't have to keep borrowing mine, we'll install them tomorrow. Then we'll take it in to a local performance exhaust shop and have them tuck this 3" system up as close as they can, ya know, do their magic on it. Then aside from the 3k limit, he'll actually be able to drive it to school!!!!

Hip hip horay! Hip hip horay! :party: :boink:

[klr142]

w00h00!!!! GREAT news man! That's awesome... I wonder how it'll act after you put the cam back where it should be though... I wonder if it'll still boost up like that, or maybe even better...? :twisted:

Can't wait to hear how it progresses from here on out... And your coil shouldn't have anything to do with it cutting out at 3200 fwiw. Lata man!

[Matt Dupuis]

Good to hear, John. Finally some positive results.

You'll get the unintentional rev limiter figured out. I assume that at 3000 it's got tons of power, and 3200 it stops dead? Drops 100 RPM and kicks back up? Won't go above 3200 in neutral? Sounds like the fuel cut rev limiter, even though you were able to take it to 4000+ before. Could also be a bad signal from the ignition - do a datalog to see if you can see what's happening.

[Ceides]

Damn good to hear. I think you may have just nipped that problem in the but once and for all :).

~Arnar

[740Weapon]

Matt Dupuis LIVES AGAIN.

[Super1800GTR]

Good to hear the progress!! This is why I do things one step @ a time: Megasquirt, tranny, cam, turbo, ignition. Fewer variables to work with that way :).

Rob

[stylngle2003]

sick John, hope your bro enjoys it, and i hope you guys get the limiter problem figgered out

[The Aspirator]

MATT YOU ARE A GOLDEN GOD!!!!!!!!! YOU FIGURED IT OUT!

Duhhhhhhh on my part. Turns out when we were messing with all the settings last week, for some reason or another I put the rev limiter at 3000 for some testing purposes, to maybe diagnose the spark problems we were having. Well I guess I forgot to put it back! When I changed MegaTune to just control fuel, it changed that rev limiter into a fuel cut. I just looked at the laptop, soft cut is set at 3000rpm, hard cut is set at 3500rpm. THAT'S IT! That's our problem!

Alrighty, I'll head down there again today, get those new plug wires on, set the rev limiter to 5.5k, and go for some fun runs! Maybe we'll get the exhaust taken care of first.

Ohh today will be a good day my friends, that is for sure. The weather is beautiful, it's warm, I'm feelin good, Erik doesn't know yet what the problem was, and we FIXX0RED IT! :twisted: Thanks to all of you guys for the great support and help troubleshooting, YOU ALL ROCK THE HOUSE!

John

[stylngle2003]

awesome! :-D

you shouldn't tell him and then fix it unbeknownst to him, and have him take it out for a test drive...bet he ****s his pants

[The Aspirator]

Ohh man I can't stop laughing after your post, I might just have to do that.... :rofl: :-D

[Morley]

Shielded wire? What did I say? Hmm? Hmm? :-P :-P

[kyle242gt]

That's awesome John, glad it was something simple. Sometimes LH isn't so bad :barf: :rofl:

[klr142]

MATT YOU ARE A GOLDEN GOD!!!!!!!!! YOU FIGURED IT OUT!

Duhhhhhhh on my part. Turns out when we were messing with all the settings last week, for some reason or another I put the rev limiter at 3000 for some testing purposes, to maybe diagnose the spark problems we were having. Well I guess I forgot to put it back! When I changed MegaTune to just control fuel, it changed that rev limiter into a fuel cut. I just looked at the laptop, soft cut is set at 3000rpm, hard cut is set at 3500rpm. THAT'S IT! That's our problem!
Hahhaha, that's AWESOME! w000! Go have some FUN! Can't wait to hear how the fun went......... :badboy:

[Canuckvolvo]

Duhhhhhhh on my part. Turns out when we were messing with all the settings last week, for some reason or another I put the rev limiter at 3000 for some testing purposes, to maybe diagnose the spark problems we were having. Well I guess I forgot to put it back!

Ha ha, now I don't feel like QUITE such a dolt for taking an hour and a half to change my cap and rotor because I kept putting the wires back on in the wrong order. (In my defense it was my "first time" with a head mounted dizzy).

Ohh today will be a good day my friends, that is for sure. The weather is beautiful, it's warm, I'm feelin good, Erik doesn't know yet what the problem was, and we FIXX0RED IT! :twisted: Thanks to all of you guys for the great support and help troubleshooting, YOU ALL ROCK THE HOUSE!

It IS beautiful there today, I just got back from a daytrip. Sounds like it will be (litterally and metaphorically) a fine evening for the two of you also. You roxxxors the oNE!!11!!1 too bud:) I hope your bro thinks so too! Can't wait to get a test ride/drive!

[The Aspirator]

Well on the drive down there my car crapped out on me somethin feirce, but I won't bore you here, I got it fixed.

We took the 242 to the exhaust shop today and they did quite a nice job, much better than I could have done on my own. They added a few short sections and bends, looks great! It's pretty tucked up there too, for an under axle system.

Then we went for a drive :twisted: . The wideband is still in my car so we're not too sure what the fuel is doing, but the car flat out hauls ASS. 10psi boost that doesn't creep at all, take it up to 5,500rpm, it ROCKS. There's a few hiccups here and there, not sure what's causing that.

More later, it's dinner time.

[GTJordan]

Glad you got it running... It was only a matter of time!

Jordan

[superstitious-hyperrealist]

glad to hear it. i think everyone was kind of ancy as to when you would figure it out. congradulations.

[luke242ti]

Awesome :)
Glad you got that issue figured out! Must have been nerve racking for some time.

Cant wait to see the final breakdown of time, money and parts invested.
Any thoughts as to the fuel mileage it will acheive?

take care

[Super1800GTR]

Great!! Glad to hear you've reached the light @ the end of the tunnel Still trying to get mine started on MS........ :(.

Rob

[The Aspirator]

180 miles so far! We've done two oil/filter changes, will do one more tomorrow. We got the wideband in today and found out that we were running REALLY rich, so we got it tuned up really nicely today. Even though it was pissing down rain, it was still fun to drive (maybe more fun than in dry....). Actually, I haven't even driven it yet! Just been the passenger/tuner. It drives GREAT guys, just wonderfully. Cold idle at 700rpm all by itself, 12.5 afr, pulling like 18" of merc, smooth as a baby's bottom.

Now to add to the list of stuff that goes wrong, the tranny seems to be dying on us. It's leaking some fluid, so maybe it's just low, but in all gears it seems to jump up and down like 500rpm as if it's going into overdrive. I removed the OD relay and the problem kept happening, so it's not wiring. Maybe the whole OD unit is shot, but we'll top off the fluid in there and see if that cures it.

And the struts are REALLY stiff, I think they're toast. So it's really really harsh hitting speed bumps and potholes, but ohh well. It drives great!!

John

[sdsurf]

this theard may be my life saver

[sdsurf]

thread... i am dumb

[grebnut]

180 miles so far! We've done two oil/filter changes, will do one more tomorrow. We got the wideband in today and found out that we were running REALLY rich, so we got it tuned up really nicely today. Even though it was pissing down rain, it was still fun to drive (maybe more fun than in dry....). Actually, I haven't even driven it yet! Just been the passenger/tuner. It drives GREAT guys, just wonderfully. Cold idle at 700rpm all by itself, 12.5 afr, pulling like 18" of merc, smooth as a baby's bottom.

Now to add to the list of stuff that goes wrong, the tranny seems to be dying on us. It's leaking some fluid, so maybe it's just low, but in all gears it seems to jump up and down like 500rpm as if it's going into overdrive. I removed the OD relay and the problem kept happening, so it's not wiring. Maybe the whole OD unit is shot, but we'll top off the fluid in there and see if that cures it.

And the struts are REALLY stiff, I think they're toast. So it's really really harsh hitting speed bumps and potholes, but ohh well. It drives great!!

John

kick ASS! put some more miles on it and crank up the boost! :badboy: hehe... glad to hear its running.

ben

[Boris740]

Well on the drive down there my car crapped out on me somethin feirce, but I won't bore you here, I got it fixed.

We took the 242 to the exhaust shop today and they did quite a nice job, much better than I could have done on my own. They added a few short sections and bends, looks great! It's pretty tucked up there too, for an under axle system.

Then we went for a drive :twisted: . The wideband is still in my car so we're not too sure what the fuel is doing, but the car flat out hauls ASS. 10psi boost that doesn't creep at all, take it up to 5,500rpm, it ROCKS. There's a few hiccups here and there, not sure what's causing that.

More later, it's dinner time.

About those hiccups, are they anything like this?:

http://msefi.com/viewtopic.php?t=7666&sid=98a59cc5fd96f6c7d877f4836c214725

[The Aspirator]

Actually the hiccups seem to be gone now, it was probably due to being really really rich before.

I have been having similar tach dropouts in my car, but it's a very random and seldom occurance that doesn't really bother me that much. Thanks for showing me that link though!

[The Aspirator]

Bump!

06-07-05 update thread can be found here:
http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=41716
John

[The Aspirator]

3000 miles and doing GRRRRRRREAT!

We finally tossed the T-cam and put in the A-cam, WOW did that engine ever like that. Advanced 4* and he can lug it around at 1500rpm and it'll still be smooth (gutless, but smooth). Power at something like 2500 until the 6000rpm rev limiter. His exhaust is in shambles though. Remember it's got the ford style wastegate housing, with 3" pipe welded to it, then it's welded to an old 3" system, completely solid with a few rubber mounts. First the resonator cracked almost all the way around near one of the welds, not the weld itself, the pipe. So I fixed that. Then the cat cracked 90% around, right after where the big middle section get smaller to about 3" diameter, weird spot. Fixed that. Should be good for a little while now, hopefully. Soon we will get a flex section, some pipe, some clamps, some bends, and a bigger muffler. Tuck it up as tight as possible so he can actually lower this tractor, make it quieter cause it's pretty darn loud now, and put in the flexy to prevent more cracking. Currently above 4500rpm something in the exhaust system buzzes and rattles, making it really annoying to rev it that high. It's gotta be fixed! With the 3" setup in my car I can rev it to 6500 with no such noises.

This weekend Grebnut is hosting a dyno day in Olympia, so if all goes well both Erik and I will go down with our cars and see what we can do. Also I'm hoping to head to the track this friday with my car, hopefully I can do better than the 16.5 I pulled last time!

[DAVO240]

BUMP!
Sticky this thread it rules

[Stereophile33]

aspirator can you give us another update on this motor???

I know you have really been throwing on the miles and slowing turning up the boost.

Where is it now?

[The Aspirator]

:) Slowly turning up the bewst? Ha, we're up to 21psi now. It's got well over 5000 miles on it and we've done a LOT more mods over the past few months. I'll start a new update post soon (thanks for reminding me) cause there's a bunch of powerstroke install pics and other goodies that I haven't even posted pictures of yet. This weekend we're hopefully going to get around to installing an external wastegate and a 90+ manifold cause boost creep on this thing is nutz.

[klr142]

21psi!?!?!? On an engine with like, what is it, 9.3 or something compression?! Woah, that thing must be insane... Have you still not dynoed it?!

[The Aspirator]

It's 9.2, and we still haven't dyno'ed it yet. Hopefully we'll do an hour or two of dyno tuning before Xmas. It's quite insane, definitely the fastest car I've ever been in! And I get to drive it whenever I want :)

[RedFridge]

Bumping this thread.

Fill us in on this beauty.

[Matt Dupuis]

Bumping this thread.

Fill us in on this beauty.

Indeed. Make with the updates!

[Canuckvolvo]

Ya, like how the FREAK is that M46 holding together????? You can't tell me Erik is gentle on it, I was his age once!

[Neil Peart]

totally siiick john!

[The Aspirator]

Hehehe, thanks guys, I know I've been slacking off with the updates... A few weeks ago we were juuussssttt about to install the Audi external wastegate when we noticed the REAL source of this naasty boost creep. It turns out that the wastegate rod was adjusted so tight that it only allowed the flapper to open like 1/4" at full extension! So that's why boost was acting so weird and creeping to our 22psi boost... So we backed it off a whole bunch, took it for a drive, 8psi rock steady. And, believe it or not, he hasn't touched it since. I know, weirdo. It pulls great for just 8psi though let me tell you! But, he's working full time now and has a full time girlfriend, so at least for the next little while I think the car is going into daily driver mode. And that's cool.

Tomorrow I'm heading down to see him, we'll tune the car for this colder weather, probably tune a bunch of different boost settings like 8, 12, 16 so he can change it with the MBC depending on the weather. Then I can yank my wideband from his car and finally tune my car!

[The Aspirator]

http://www.vipinfoservices.com/john/images/powerstroke01.jpg
http://www.vipinfoservices.com/john/images/powerstroke05.jpg
http://www.vipinfoservices.com/john/images/powerstroke09.jpg
http://www.vipinfoservices.com/john/images/powerstroke12.jpg

[Morley]

Mother of all intake pipes! Why didn't you guys just weld an elbow to the flange on the compressor housing?

[740ATL]

John, that's just awesome. Is that a PS? did you cut the framerails?

are you using the K-jet holes for your injectors?

I truly can't wait to see that thing on the dyno and track... gonna be great!

Mike

[The Aspirator]

We were going to weld an elbow to the compressor housing, but 1. I can't weld aluminum, and 2. my bro took it to his old shop teacher and he said that he couldn't get any penetration on the aluminum. It'd have to be REALLY cleaned up well, and we got impatient. :)

Yes powerstroke, yes cut frame rails (but did NOT cut the bumper shocks). Yup, K-jet injector holes for the cleaned and flowed CFI injectors. Search around and you'll find tons of pics.

[Canuckvolvo]

That's johns car, as opposed to his brothers, so I'm not sure if he has plans to dyno it, does he?

Hey John, have you guys checked the limits of 87 octane on Eriks car? If you were running ~20psi (on 94 I assume) I bet you could run quite a bit of boost on cheap gas safely. Saving money on gas is good, forcing you to use only stage 1 boost is also good because it uses less gas and is better on slippery winter roads when you physically can't put down high boost power anyway.

[The Aspirator]

That's johns car, as opposed to his brothers, so I'm not sure if he has plans to dyno it, does he?:???: All pics are of Erik's 242, you know that.

92 is the higest gas that he can get in washington, and he runs that all the time. Haven't even tried lower octane yet, though now that you mention it it's worth thinking about. You're right, "winter boost" probably doesn't need high octane, especially not with programable!!

He just rolled over 6000 miles the other day :cool:.

[vthreat]

http://www.vipinfoservices.com/john/images/powerstroke12.jpg

can you mount the bypass valve that way? I've always seen it the other way on vw and audi cars. I guess it doesn't really matter, just curious as I'll be using the 710p (audi RS6:badboy: ) on my volvo.

Your posts of your car and your brother's car have really helped me along with my volvo. It seems every good idea I have has already been done by you. (I thought I'd be the first with 8 gauges!) I'm taking a similar approach with flat tops and ported combustion chambers. Eric's car is proof that some day mine will work and be fast!

Keep up the good work and keep us posted! :)

[Canuckvolvo]

[QUOTE=The Aspirator]:???: All pics are of Erik's 242, you know that.
[QUOTE]whoops! guess it's been so long since I've seen it i forgot what colour it was (i have it in my head as silver). when i saw the red engine compartment i immediately thought it was yours.
Put in a tank of 87 and see what happens, you might even get better mileage!

[The Aspirator]

Vthreat yeah you can mount the BOV either way, both ways work but they just sound a bit different. I'm thinking that having it mounted the other way would make it impossible to "bleed" or open during boost cause of too much pipe pressure, so we will probably flip it.

Athal, now that I think about it have you ever even seen Erik's car???? Ohh yeah that one time you came to my parents house and helped us build the engine... way back when. Erik's car is all red, like my front fenders. My engine bay is blue though :-P.

[adrianpike]

Erik's car is all red, like my front fenders. My engine bay is blue though :-P.

Mismatched colors makes it faster, by letting the v-tak engage sooner.

[RedFridge]

Bump

[The Aspirator]

Hahaha, thanks, that's quite a bump! As for an update on the car/engine, Erik got a nice job so he went out and bought himself a '99 Land Rover Discovery to be his daily driver, and now he's getting really into the whole 4x4 thing, going out muddin' all the time, he loves it. The car has sat in our driveway for about 9 months and I've been slowly tearing off some goodies to put into use on my car, without completely crippling the 242. At this point I'm not really sure what's going to happen to it.

The engine's only got 10k on it, it's still a baby! Coming on 2 years old now too. Heck my new B23 has 20K on it after just the first year.

[Roger-Dee]

ouch... so painfull to read as I'm waiting mine to get back from the machine shop...
:cries: only 10k.... :cries: :cries: :cries:

[JohnLane]

So that was Eric who I saw at the Roach-Coach on the Guide with the Land-Rover.
Good for Eric!! There is no lack of MUD around here just about now.

Soooooo John what is going to become of the motor in Eric's car?
The Hornetkar could use a good running transplant :badboy:

[The Aspirator]

Erik has donated the car to me, and I'm tempted to sell the whole thing as it sits right now. We'll see what I end up doing with it.

[Roger-Dee]

I think I finally get to convert my friend to volvo. He don't like my 940, and he wasn't loving my 740 anymore... But since he took a ride on a 244, he likes them! I told him you should get yourself a 242, and stop playing with his crx+t sh*t that start spinning when power get decent ! And since you're in Canada, that would be an easy sale! Did you have any picture of the whole car? Not stock ? Don't worry, we like custom stuff, really really like it! Can't wait to show him the car, I hope he will be sleepless!

[The Aspirator]

Not too interested in shipping the car cross country, also it's a washington car, so I'm not sure what your inspections are like but I know that getting a car into BC is a royal pain in the butt. Also I'd like to keep it local if possible, that way I can still see it around and get to ride in it. :)

[adrianpike]

Not too interested in shipping the car cross country, also it's a washington car, so I'm not sure what your inspections are like but I know that getting a car into BC is a royal pain in the butt. Also I'd like to keep it local if possible, that way I can still see it around and get to ride in it. :)

I'll trade you an unbent flathood and air dam for it. :ninja:

[JohnLane]

John what do you want for the next Hornetkar?

[RedFridge]

A re-find bump.

[The Aspirator]

Well the 242 is now my main daily driver, I swapped everything from my blue 244 over to this 242, including my built B23 engine. So this B21 that the thread is all about is just sitting on a tire in my garage with only 10k on it, not sure where its destined to go yet. We'll find a good home for it, that's for sure. :)

[JohnLane]

John that thing deserves to be powering your HOrnetkar.

The Blue car will be just dandy as a Horntekar.

[The Aspirator]

Ohh how you tempt me with your wicked ways.....

[JohnLane]

What do you think that you need to have seat time in a Hornetkar to realize that you will have tears streaming down your face due to manical laughter?

First time I ran in a Hornetkar I laughed so hard and long that I hurt the next day from it.

www.evergreenspeedway.com

An autotragic is the way to go. A BW55 is perfect.

[The Aspirator]

You're a bad man, giving me impure thoughts about building up a hornetkar this summer. We'll have to talk some more about it.

[JohnLane]

Careful John..... Entry fees are $25.00 for an event.
Preparing the car is fast and easy......

[stevo]

Wow this thread is unreal, Thank you Everyone who is contributing, i am starting a B21 Rebuild as soon as i get to kelowna, and its Great to know there are locals i can bother with questions, and that have gone through it!! John, sorry to hear about your engine...
steve

[stevo]

Oh man i just read the end of the thread, dude if you arnt doing anything with that engine, i would give it a very good home! I would rather buy something thats been built right and not have to go through the pain of it all! But unfortunatly i would live with me in bc... not washington......maybe weekend visits? lol

[klr142]

Don't forget to read through the b23 rebuild thread, that one was just as good, if not better.

[stevo]

I dont have a b23 though, im going to stick with what i have, im on a budget for this build..

[Morten VJ]

It's the same engine with a different bore.
So the basics is the same, it's only the bore, piston and cr. that makes a difference.

Morten

[The Aspirator]

I dont have a b23 though, im going to stick with what i have, im on a budget for this build..That's not the point, you should read the thread anyways cause it's just good fun and you'll learn more information that this thread didn't cover.
http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=62357

Yes Stevo the engine is now for sale, though there's a guy in Portland that's currently interested. If that falls through then I'll let you know, Kelowna isn't that far away at all.

John

[stevo]

Great john, i will be eagerly awaiting your responce!!......in the mean while i will be working on my voodoo "dont buy that engine" majic hahaha. I'll be sure to check out that b23 build...in the past week ive learnt more about engines than my intire life!

[wallybanger]

This engine is back on the market again.
http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=112844

[RedFridge]

Everyone will be kicking themselves when this engine sells to someone else.
And the lucky winner is ___________.

[vvpete]

This engine is back on the market again.
http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=112844

Good therad for the noobie to building a good motor

I thought i'd ask my questions here, not in the f/s forum, since my search of this thread didn't answer the questions of how did you handle the crank timing sensor and knock sensor?(if fitted with one)?

I have a motor sitting in my garage on an engine stand since 1998 with about everything you could throw at it for a B21F+T performance build (the right way), but I went with a + 0.60 over bore for strength and high rev's using Malhe lightened pistons. This was not done cheaply (~$2500), since a good motor build is gonna cost no matter what you think.

So what did it actually cost you in the end?

I have hesitated putting it into my LH 2.4/3.1 cars because of these mod's needed. I also don't like the idea of tapping into the oil pan for a return line, so will drill and tap the block. I also wish I could find a plug & play fuel rail :cool:

[stylngle2003]

it was set up for msns from the get-go...no crank sensors needed

[The Aspirator]

Yeah Pete it was built with megasquirt in mind, no need for a crank sensor. A knock sensor is easy, find an empty bolt hole and bolt it on! Although it might not be in the exact factory perfect location, it was good enough while using our Knocksense light. I think there is a boss where you could drill/tap for the knock sensor that's in a similar to factory location on a B21.

For the crank sensor, can't you just find a way to mount the VR sensor on the back of the block like the B230's do? Drill/tap some holes, use some spacers, badda bing? Then use a newer flywheel/flexplate and bellhousing. I'm not sure really, since I've never played with LH2.4 or 3.1.

John

[swedefiend]

I also wish I could find a plug & play fuel rail :cool:

Almost any 84-89 240 / 740 fuel rail and manifold should work as that is what I have always used.

The only caveat being, remove the accumulator under the car (or at least route in bypass) and you will have to cut down the supply primary under the hood (if it has the fuel filter up top, just use a donor hose from another k-jet car sufficiently cut down to fit the length - at least that way you will have something to fall back on if you decide to de-EFI it)

John, good to hear your engine is still alive. Mine's doing okay. Not as fast as I had hoped (yet), but I haven't spent a dollar on the engine (other than oil changes) in almost a year.

[vvpete]

Yeah Pete it was built with megasquirt in mind, no need for a crank sensor. A knock sensor is easy, find an empty bolt hole and bolt it on! Although it might not be in the exact factory perfect location, it was good enough while using our Knocksense light. I think there is a boss where you could drill/tap for the knock sensor that's in a similar to factory location on a B21.

For the crank sensor, can't you just find a way to mount the VR sensor on the back of the block like the B230's do? Drill/tap some holes, use some spacers, badda bing? Then use a newer flywheel/flexplate and bellhousing. I'm not sure really, since I've never played with LH2.4 or 3.1.

John

So with MS, you don't use a timing sensor? How does the system know where the crank is?
Hall sensor?
For a 2.4/3.1 car retrofit, you would need a crank position sensor to use any +T ECU's
MS may be a good option for me since there's no 3.1 ECU for a turbo, and I don't really want to go to 2.4 or with a older hall sensor distributor, so the big issue is attaching a crank sensor. The mount for the sensor is part of the B230 casting (on some cars it was in the bell housing, which is not on my car. My '89 245 w/M47 had the bellhousing with sensor mount, wish I had that back).
I have heard of people using a front mounted timing wheel with inductive pick-up. Sounds like a lot of trouble. I should just go find an early 240/140 to put this motor in.