Building a B21FT from the ground up [Archive]

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The Aspirator

09-29-2004, 02:11 AM

12-10-04
I just want you new readers to realize that this really is a GREAT thread to learn how to build a B21/23 the right way. It includes basically everything I've been taught and learned throughout the process of building this engine. Very little off topic banter, tons of focused information posted by the people that really know how to do this stuff. Please, read on, learn, pass the knowledge.
Motor's almost done! I've got a full list of materials and costs on post #105 (http://forums.turbobricks.com/showpost.php?p=285074&postcount=105).

All the pictures in this thread have disappeared, but I've re-hosted most of them here:
http://www.cravingboost.com/cars/B21ft-rebuild-2004/
__________________________________________________ _____________________________

Hey all, we're finally building up a "proper" motor for my brothers 1983 242t. My goal for this thread is to have you guys help me decide what parts to use and what machining needs to be done. Help me learn about all the "squish vs swirl" tactics and stuff like that.

http://www.vipinfoservices.com/john/images/Erik-engine01.jpg

Intended use:
This is for my 18yr old brother. He's building this engine as credit for his Senior Project in high school, and because he needs his car back! It will be driven hard, raced, railed, flogged, etc. It'll get good oil with frequent changes and will be maintained regularly, so it's not going to be abused.

We need a reliable engine that'll last him 10's of thousands of miles without much hassle. I mean if he lets it knock for 6 months straight and turns up the wick to 30psi, of course he'll have problems :-P . He knows this.

We want a high compression motor with great off boost power (like mine) and killer boost power. Very driveable, both daily driving and racing. We're not looking for "boost number braggin' rights" as StealthFTI said, but we're definately looking for the most usable power. If it makes insane power at 10psi, GREAT! Gives it a slight sleeper aspect, "Yeah I'm just running 10psi........:whip: ".

Budget:
I'm thinking like $500-1000 US. Our dad is backing the buildup, and he says we should do what needs to be done, without going completely wild. I agree.

Current parts on the car:
The current shortblock is some POS B23 that we tossed in. That was a stupid idea, cause it sucks balls. I think it's spun a rod bearing, so he's just not driving it. It's time to do this right.

It's got a 398 head that I lightly rebuilt. I dissasembled it and beadblasted everything. Lapped the valves and replaced one loose guide with a new one. New intake valve seals. New lifter bucket absorbers. B cam (though it could easily be an A-cam or a K-cam if that will make the engine even meaner). It appears that the head was surfaced shortly before we got our hands on it. It came off my parts car which threw a rod (supposedly, I haven't checked yet). When I took off the head the Elring headgasket looked BRAND NEW. Newer than a one month old HG that I've removed before. It also appeared to have new absorbers and new intake seals. Lets just say I was happy to find it in such good condition!

Megasquirt is already installed and works great. We've got regular turbo injectors on and.... jeeze I forget what FPR. It might actually be a 2.5bar one. Soon enough we'll toss on some brown tops or probably CFI injectors.

Ignition is still just the K-jet ignition. One day we will upgrade to MSnS, but it might not happen before this motor is done. Then again, if you guys talk me into it, it will happen before this motor is done. It's got crappy spark plug wires and a stock coil. (maybe I'll just finally put EDIS on my car and he can have all my MSnS stuff including my MSD wires.)

It has a 60/63 turbo, pretty tight shaft.

Stock 242 downpipe (with the stupid cat), then 3" exhaust straight back with what we think is a flowmaster muffler. We got the whole system from a buddy for a great price, it's not perfect but it works for now. Once the car works again we'll install a 3" downpipe and cat.

It's got an M46 transmission, 8.5" flywheel and pressure plate, NEW clutchnet.com 6 puck sprung hub clutch.

I forget what else we're using that's relevent, please ask if you have any questions.

Parts we have and are going to use for the new shortblock:
B21FT block, about 190,000 miles. A tiny little lip at the top of the cylinders (very vauge I know, but my parts car with the same mileage had a HUGE lip compared to this)

Ohh yeah, and this is important. This B21FT suffered from a spun rod bearing about 6 months ago. The crank is chewed up a little bit, and I'm hoping that 1st or 2nd undersized rod bearings will clean it up. If not we'll find a new crank. I'm sure the main bearings surfaces will be turned too.

M-rods. The one that spun and got chewed up will be replaced. I've got 5 good rods to choose from, and can easily scrounge up many more if needed.

Pistons are 1st OS B21F Kolbenschmidt, slightly used. I just got them from Matt Dupuis. They're lightly scuffed up on the sides, I'll post up pics if you want to see. Also they're flat top pistons, and in their designated motor are supposed to yeild about 9.3:1 compression.

Just for fun I tried to slide one of these pistons into a cylinder, and it definately wouldn't fit.

New parts for the buildup:
New oil pump, recommendations?

New water pump, belts, all gaskets, etc. New rear main seal, front crank seal, basically everything.

Humm, we should get a new crankcase box too eh?

Main and rod bearings, undersized depending on what the machine shop says about our crank.

Piston rings

Timing belt pulley, it's already got a brand new timing belt.

Electric fan (still gotta find one of those)

Machining to be done:
Turn the crank

Overbore the cylinders to match these 1st overbore pistons

O-ring

Possibly deck the block to ensure a flat surface and enhance squish (please elaborate on this for me guys)
__________

I think that should do it. I'd like you guys to help me with suggestions on stuff like deciding how much to deck the block, what squish to look for, static compression ratio and dynamic compression ratio, etc etc.

Stealth, I'd love to get this worked out before you leave on the 10th of Oct. My brother and I will probably have started this buildup by then. It would be wonderful to have a good idea of the details before I get too involved. Thank you for making me realize that I needed to come out with a plan of attack, just typing this out has helped me already.

Thanks guys!

John

stealthfti

09-29-2004, 03:11 AM

John,

a good start for a plan.

the budget is doable...but tighter than I usually work under. For reference purposes only, my MS bill is usually $800+ on just the shortblock.

to do what you seek, within the budget, will require some ingenuity and prioritizing.

first things first: do you have the green manual TP30170/2 Engine reconditioning?
....$19.35 plus tax and ship from volvotechinfo.com [the last time I ordered a manual from them, it came in 7 days.]

....or you might get it from one of the ebay guys [skip's?...or]

you need the book, it will give you and your machinist the correct specs that you are gonna need to do this.

from what you say, I am understanding that your brother is doing the machining [or as much as possible depending on equipment available]. that will conserve some $$.

there is one set of specs that the green manual does not supply for the machinist: the diameter of the main journals and rod journals....the outside of the bearing shell dimensions for proper sizing of the rods for proper bearing shell crush; and the outside bearing shell dimensions for the main journals in the block so the main bearing shells are properly crushed and retained.

the only aftermarket supplier that I know of that offers those dimensions for their bearings is Fed-Mogul. Check that out and track it down. You have to have that for proper bearing fit; especially if your brother intends to have the motor live. I use F-Ms because of that little detail.

in the next few days, I will put together some info and recommendations for you guys on what to do to the SB; and how to get to tight squish.

I am going to presume a block, crank, rods, intermediate shaft hot tank and magnaflux...right? you mag the block; esp the main brg webs; and esp #1.

the crank get tanked and magged; and checked for true

the rods get tanked and magged; checked for straight; resized and rebushed.....full floaters are stock; so plan on new rod bushings....you get to size them right...

you will balance the crank neutral; and the rod/piston assys to the same weight.

more on the block etc later...we be just starting.

Thomas Fritz
...the stealth FTi

The Aspirator

09-29-2004, 05:53 AM

One more thing, Erik's engine will be tuned (very well) with my wideband O2 once we get it running. We might even toss a knock sensor into the equasion, because Megasquirt is now capable of retarding timing at every knock event.

first things first: do you have the green manual TP30170/2 Engine reconditioning?
....$19.35 plus tax and ship from volvotechinfo.com [the last time I ordered a manual from them, it came in 7 days.] No I do not have that book. I'll see if Kenny (captain bondo) has one I can borrow, because he's local to me and I finally met him. If not we'll just buy one. Thanks for that tip, I was wondering how the machine shop would know the specs.

from what you say, I am understanding that your brother is doing the machining [or as much as possible depending on equipment available]. that will conserve some $$.No, sorry if I mislead you. We will find a machine shop that we like, and he will be doing all the fancy work. We'll most likely stand over his shoulder and help out though, because remember my brother is making this into a huge school project, and needs to document every step along the way. But aside from the hardcore fancy expensive machining tricks, we will be doing everything else together. Don't want to pay a machine shop for something we can figure out.

Also you mentioned resizing the rods. I was at a good machine shop the other day and they explained this to me, and actually showed me the tools and how they're used. My question is, when the rods are resized, wouldn't you need bearings with a larger outside diameter? Or are they not altered thaaaaat much? Do the main bearings and caps also get this treatment?

I am going to presume a block, crank, rods, intermediate shaft hot tank and magnaflux...right? you mag the block; esp the main brg webs; and esp #1.
The crank get tanked and magged; and checked for true.
The rods get tanked and magged; checked for straight; resized and rebushed.....full floaters are stock; so plan on new rod bushings....you get to size them right...
Thanks, I didn't know that the crank/rods/I-shaft needed to be hot tanked also. We will get all these parts tanked. Others have said that magnafluxing is about $65, that should be do-able too. I guess we wouldn't want to build a nearly perfect enigine, but later find out the hard way that one of the rods was cracked internally.....

you will balance the crank neutral; and the rod/piston assys to the same weight. Lucky for me I've got a good buddy who does engine balancing, and I'm sure I can get this done for free. Thanks for mentioning it though, I might not have considered it otherwise. Do all the rotating parts get balanced after the maching work? Also, would he want to balance the assembly with the flywheel and crank pully too????

Thanks! This is getting me all excited. I just wish I had this kind of time and money to spend into a rebuild of my motor! Sometimes I feel like it's a ticking timebomb....:omg: .

John

stealthfti

09-30-2004, 10:27 PM

John,

re the rod resizing: the bolts are pressed out; the mating surfaces of the rod and the cap are both dusted off a few thou, and the bolts reinstalled. That makes for a smaller diameter non circle. Then, when honed out back to correct circle size, it is all round, and holds the bearing shells all the way around.

the main caps get dusted off a few thou, but the block itself is not machined in there. when the main caps are installed, it is again a smaller diameter, non circle. the align honing restores the perfect circle.

when the rods are resized, the center to center length is shortened a couple of thou. when the main bearings are align honed, the effect is that the crank is actually "raised" in the block a couple of thou.
this shortening of the rod C-C length and the raising of the crank in the block are two things that would need to be done BEFORE machining the block deck for piston deck height. which is part of what I was referring to that things are done in sequence.

when the rods are resized, they are usually also rebushed. the new bushing for the wrist pin has to be honed for correct pin clearance. [The volvo redblocks all use full float pistons: the rods are bushed.] And it is at that point that the very slight differences in rod C-C length from the resizing can be accounted for and compensated for...by offset honing of the wrist pin bushings. That way the rod C-C lengths can be restored to exact same for all four rods.

for a motor that you intend to 'drive aggressively' from time to time, you have to make sure the rods are right. that is why you tank and mag them and verify straight....and resize and rebush. This is not an area to shortcut.

new rod bolts/nuts are your call. the volvo rod bolts are good. for a race motor, I would definitely replace the rod bolts. For street: the decision is yours; your machinist can tell if they are weak....he will know when he torques then down during the rod work. If he says to replace, replace.

back to the block:
...once tanked and magged to verify no cracks in the main bearing webbing or cylinder walls or head bolt holes,
...the main bearing journals are checked for round; they are checked for diameter; and they are checked for alignment. It does become a bit of a judgement call on whether or not to align hone [aka align bore] the main bearing journals. To me, if they are not all four perfect in round, diameter, or alignment, the block gets align honed. This is not an option in my book, even for a "street" motor. But that is also your call; but listen to your machinist's judgement/recommendation.

I prefer to have the mains align honed. It restores and establishes the centerline of the crankshaft; and therefore the center of the block: the center of the universe of the rotating assembly...which is pretty d##n important to me.

...once the main bearing journals are checked out and the work performed, the attention turns to the cylinder bores:

...you are going 1st OS; that is just about precisely 0.020in. Which means that the cylinders can be "bored" with a boring bar or boring machine. The other method of increasing the bore size is by "honing". Both methods accomplish the goal of getting to the 0.020in OS; but the actual boring with a boring bar/machine is more accurate for this reason:
...the boring bar will bore out the cylinder truly perpendicular to the crank centerline...we are keeping the faith by being true to the center of the universe. Honing the cylinders out to OS is fine; but that only follows the bores as they are. If there has been some slight core shift, honing does not correct that. Boring does not 'follow' the cylinder as it is; the boring bar is set up to do it perpendicular to the crank. Remember: the crankshaft centerline is our center of the universe. And we want to have things that are supposed to be perpendicular to the crank, to BE perpendicular to the crank....AND we want things that are supposed to be parallel to the crank to actually BE parallel to the crank.
...boring to 1st OS will be done in basically two stages: the boring bar to take the diameter out to about 0.017in OS, then honed that last 2 plus thou. That gets the wall finish correct with the right cross hatch. A final hone with a flex hone [the balls on wires thingy] will give a nice "plateau surface".

piston to cylinder wall clearances is an area rife with opinion. For your purposes, and using used pistons, I would go for wall clearances of right at 0.002in....max. 0.0015in would be nice; but i won't insist. Check the green book specs; you will see that I am on the loose side....heehee. [an inside joke]

let's talk crankshaft:
...that crank with the spun rod bearing needs to examined closely. If it passes visual and mag test, and is straight, then ok. Personally, if the spun journal shows ANY discoloration from heat, I would get another crank; and put that one on the shelf for a DD NA motor.
...when grinding to undersize bearings; or just polishing the journals....go for main and rod bearing clearances of about 0.0015in to 0.0018in...that is middle of specs.
...keep the thrust clearances within the specs there at #5 main. Your machinst can and will check that.

which reminds me: you should make a copy of the green manual and put it in a binder to "loan" to your machinist. put the pages in protective covers so they don't get greasy fingerprints on them. Your machinist will believe the clearances when he reads them in the book....and he will have the right clearances info to work from.

how to get to tight squish........

....I will go over in the next post.

TF

olov

09-30-2004, 10:56 PM

great thread! i'm glad you are sharing this info with the board and not just through im/pm/email. i was considering a b21 build up, and your setup sounds perfect to me. good off boost, and good top end with boost.

Ceides

10-01-2004, 07:15 AM

Brilliant post ...
Now for the tedious task of translating allt that techical mumbo jumbo to Icelandic for my machinist to understand :-P

~Arnar

Ceides

10-01-2004, 07:35 AM

Brilliant post ...
Now for the tedious task of translating allt that techical mumbo jumbo to Icelandic for my machinist to understand :-P

~Arnar

The Aspirator

10-01-2004, 12:48 PM

Once again Stealth, I am forever in debt to you. This is helping me out so much. With a lot of the things you're talking about I've heard them mentioned here and there, and seen some tools in a few machine shop, but your explinations really clarify everything for me.

Also, I talked to my buddy the engine balancer, and he said that we'll get that done up no problem. He told me to get all the machining work done first, then bring in the crank, rods, pistons, wrist pins, flywheel, and possibly the pressure plate and crank pulley just for overkill. He was mentioning that if a crank is just a few grams off balance in a certain direction, that equates to 45 LBS of force at 3000rpm, or something to that extent. So it's imperitive to completely balance a "built" motor if you expect it to last for a long time.

Thanks for the clarification on rod resizing, that makes perfect sense now. As I said I've got 5 good rods, so I'll take them all in and my MS will choose the best ones. And I can easily get more if needed, say if one or two have internal cracks or something.

Here is the only picture I have of the spun bearing. It's pretty nasty but I hope it's not garbage. But if it is, I need to know so that we can be on the lookout for another crank pronto. The second layer there, I'm not sure if we're looking at bearing or crank surface.... might actually be bearing.
http://www.vipinfoservices.com/john/images/erik-engineB21ft.jpg

John

stealthfti

10-02-2004, 01:05 AM

John,
that is a very nice picture....of a very UGLY result. ouch.

That crank might clean up at ten thou under; but I doubt it. Probably at twenty thou under. Personally, I would find another crank to start with: any B21F from '78 to '82 will be forged crank and M rods. That, I know for sure. Earlier than 79 is probably forged; but it has been so long since I tore one of those down that I forget.

The reason I suggest starting out with a different crank is twofold:
...that journal surface IS chewed; and I cannot determine from the pic any discoloration from heat. But, as bad as that looks, I suspect that there was some heat. Even if it were to pass a magnaflux exam, I would always have that nagging doubt...
...the sides of the rod journal look a bit ragged. That bothers me because the rod axial play is controlled by the clearances on the sides of the journals. Sure, they may be okay; and they may clean up just fine. but...

re balancing: since you have that available, go for it. It may not be an essential operation for a street motor, but it is a worthy thing to do.

Another option that may not be an essential for a street motor, but if available, is worthwhile: using a honing plate [AKA boring plate or torque plate]. A honing plate duplicates the stress on, and deformation of, the cylinder walls by the head bolts. By torqueing down the honing plate for the boring and honing operations of the cylinders, you duplicate the cylinders' walls as they are when the head is installed. When bored and honed with the plate on, you end up with truly round cylinders when the motor is together and running. For a competition motor, use of a honing plate is a very smart thing to do.

re the engine lubrication system:
...you should review the 'oil pump shimming' topic done recently. The later oil pump, PN 1346144, is the higher volume oil pump to use. The Melling M181 oil pump is a replacement pump for that pump; and would serve very well. The oil pump in that B21FT is the older PN, lower volume pump....so definitely upgrade.

...retrofitting oil squirters into the B21FT block [as CNGBrick has done to a 23 block] would be a procedure that would be very worthwhile. But in this instance, for this motor, going that route is beyond the budget. It would be a time consuming custom machining and fitting job. I bring it up for future consideration for a build with both a larger budget and a longer time frame.

One other thing: are you using an old style exhaust manifold? or a 90+ manifold?

***

The subject of squish clearance is tied to a term that need to be defined and understood: deck height.

The proper definition of the term is this:

"deck height"...the distance from the crankshaft centerline to the block deck.

Volvo has never published a specification for "deck height" for the SOHC redblocks.

The "deck height" of the block can be measured: measure from the crank centerline to the top of the block. no biggie. And since there is no published specified dimension, you DO have to measure it....or rather, your MS will have to physically measure it.

In common usage, the term "deck height" is not used precisely correctly. When most people talk about 'deck height' or 'piston deck height', they are using the term to describe the height of the piston crown at TDC. If the piston is sticking up out above the block deck surface at TDC, it is referred to as a 'positive' deck height. If the piston only comes up flush with the block deck at TDC, it is called 'zero deck height'. If the piston stays below the block deck at TDC, it is called 'negative deck height'.

Even though there is not a published "deck height" for the block, we can calculate the approximate dimension. How?

....take half the stroke, add the connecting rod C-C length, add the compression height of the piston....and the total length will be close to what the block is. The compression height of the piston is the distance from the wrist pin centerline to the top of the piston: the crown.

example:

B21 stroke...............80mm............3.1496in

half stroke is.............40mm............1.5748in
rod C-C...................145mm...........5.7086in
comp height..............46.5mm.........1.8307in

approx deck height.....231.5mm.......9.1141in

I said that that would be close to the actual block deck height. Why is it not the actual block deck height? Because Volvo varied the "deck height" in order to vary the compression ratio for different markets. Using the numbers above....which are B21FT numbers....we get pretty close to the actual "deck height" of the block. In actuality, in a B21FT, the piston deck height is negative from the factory about eight to ten thou; and I have seen them as much as negative thirteen thou [or thereabout].

I know that because when I do a teardown, one of the measurements I take and record IS the piston deck height. That data is useful to my MS for when they get ready to determine the amount of material they will have to machine off the block deck when they get to that operation, in order to give me the piston deck height I want at assembly.

***

To get good squish clearance, the piston crown has to come within 0.040in of the cylinder head when the piston is at TDC. A stock Volvo head gasket, or an Elring head gasket, is 0.047in to 0.049in thick when it is compressed between the head and block. [I do things based on the 0.047in value] Therefore, to get to the 40 thou squish clearance, the piston will have to rise up out of the cylinder at TDC a distance of at least seven thou in order to make up for the thickness of the head gasket, and to get to the 40 thou squish clearance when the head is on.

So.....your MS will have to either measure everything and calculate the amount of block deck material that needs to be machined off to end up with a postive piston deck height of seven or more thou....OR they will have to do a dummy assembly of the shortblock and actually measure where the pistons are, and go from there.

This is why you do not surface the block until the main bearing journals are checked, and possibly align honed; until the rods are resized and rebushed; and until the pistons are measured for compression height dimension.

How tight should you go for for a squish clearance? That depends basically on the absolute redline and the piston to cylinder wall clearance [piston rock in the bore]. For your engine, I would suggest a squish clearance of 0.035in to 0.037in. That will put you into tight squish.

For reference, in my pbase galleries, the Sarah Project B230FT is a 37 squish motor; the L Block motor is a 35 squish motor. You can see what 'plus ten' and 'plus twelve' look like.

What you decide to go for, is for you to decide on. Why? Because you need to read up on squish; and because we have not discussed absolute redline.

...and that is a different topic.

Thomas Fritz
...the stealth FTi

The Aspirator

10-02-2004, 04:06 AM

Thanks Thomas. Give me a day or two to myself, then we'll discuss the remaining topics. Though if you have time, and want to start listing them, please do. I'll be very busy the next few days and probably won't get much time on T-bricks.

John

olov

10-02-2004, 09:44 AM

i hate to derail the thought process that's going, but i have a few questions. about tighter squish

ok, so if you go super tight squish, the piston would come out of the block at tdc a lot. so couldn't you shave the head a little and shave the block a little less.

how would you figure the max rpm's allowable? would it all be determined by the valve springs? so for a little higher red line, go better valve springs. or would that cause other parts to be the limiting factor?

and if the piston would hit the springs, couldn't you cut valve pockets in the top of the flat top's, so they would look like this, http://www.rosspistons.com/items.php?Custom=N&ItemTypeID=23 ?(just did a google search, this was the first site i found) if cost wasn't an issue, that is. how much extra room (piston to valves) would that give you, and does that mess up swirl?

thanks guys, and i hope you can clear up some of these questions for me.

245gti

10-02-2004, 10:06 AM

The reason I suggest starting out with a different crank is twofold:
...that journal surface IS chewed; and I cannot determine from the pic any discoloration from heat. But, as bad as that looks, I suspect that there was some heat. Even if it were to pass a magnaflux exam, I would always have that nagging doubt...

Couldn't agree more. Remember when Matt and I spun bearings within a couple of months of each other? My crank looked like that. We pulled my engine out, flipped the block on its back and took the bearing caps off and then spun the crank. You could see the crank was warped. You didn't need to measure, it was visible. That one went in the back of the truck for the next run to the dump.....

zombiewoof

10-02-2004, 10:26 AM

Whay not find a B23 or B230 shortblock? I always assumed people built B21s because it's what they had (and weren't rebuilding) or for racing regs. Why not go with the larger displacement?

Felixredwoody

10-02-2004, 11:19 AM

I'm following this thread VERY closely and learning LOTS on how to do a reliable yet powerful B21, I'm going to do something similar with my '79 B21 that will be a MS +T motor and learning all the RIGHT things to do helps lots. Once again THANKS for the detailed info on the machinig processes that should be done and more importantly the reasoning behind them. Tim

blu92in99

10-02-2004, 01:41 PM

Mods/Admin - Can we sticky this thread? It would be a nice addition to this forum at the top near RedDragon's stroker B23 thread...

stealthfti

10-03-2004, 02:21 AM

John,

A few more things on the preliminary side:

...the used pistons need to be CLEAN. not for the aesthetics of 'lookin' purty'; but for the purposes of having CLEAN ring grooves. If the pistons are not already clean; the MS can clean them up so that they look like new. And that cleaning will clean the ring grooves without damage. I do not use ring groove scrapers. The potential for damage to the grooves is so great as to be almost a certainty. Damaged ring grooves leads to improper ring positioning and operation: the rings don't seat right; they can't move correctly; they can't do their job...you have a problem. Rings have their needs too. Do your part to ensure the rings' ability to sit in the grooves and move freely and correctly; and THEN they can seal properly.

...the wrist pin bores have to be clean. The pistons are full float; ie, the wrist pins move back and forth inside the piston and con rod bushing, and they rotate as well. The clearances are in the tenths of a thou. If you think you can verify proper clearances in that range on dirty surfaces, you are deluding yourself.

The two main areas of problems that lead to the necessity of replacing the pistons are:
...wear and damage to the ring grooves; by deposit build up over time that becomes an abrasive, improper cleaning, or heat damage to the ring land area
...wear to the wrist pin bores in the piston. Those bores do 'egg'. The piston is aluminum; the wrist pin is GOOD steel....the piston wears first.

Clean pistons are much easier to visually inspect, and much easier to verify proper clearances on. And for balancing purposes, clean pistons can be weighed accurately.

Replacement ring choice is another of the areas that is rife with opinion; which ranges from 'simple' cast iron rings to exotic gapless rings. I leave the exotic stuff to others; because it is a matter of preference. I am not 'dissing' the more exotic ring designs, they have their advantages for their intended uses.

I choose to keep it as simple as possible; and just try to make sure that the simple is done correctly. When re-ringing a volvo, I use Deves Rings. Yes, they are the 'simple' iron rings....and they work well. IF the attention to detail is paid.

***

When the block is hot tanked, the intermediate shaft bearings have to be replaced: they are damaged in the tanking solution. The freeze plugs are normally removed prior to the tanking so that the cooling passages can be thoroughly cleaned, and to let the scale and crud flush out. All oil gallery plugs are also removed so the passages will clean out as well.

Who supplies the freeze plugs and intermediate shaft bearings is for you to work out with your MS. I have my MS install the freeze plugs. I could do it; but I am lazy. I install the oil gallery plugs later...after I brush out and thoroughly wash and flush the block and oil passages. That is definitely MY job; and my responsibility to make sure that those are clean. And it is my job to make sure that there are no restrictions to oil flow through the passages.

Back to wrist pin bushings a minute: if your MS supplies the bushings, that is one thing; because if they end up needing to redo a bushing or two when adjusting the rod C-C, then they can get more bushings. If you are going to supply the wrist pin bushings, then order in eight bushings. That way your MS won't run out of bushings. Save the ones not needed; you can use them on the next motor.

***

I will continue this in a couple of days.

***

re the question on squish and surfacing the head vs the block:
...surfacing the head does nothing to affect squish, since the head surface is still separated from the pistons by the HG. Surfacing the head will just make the combustion chamber smaller, and bring the valve heads closer to the pistons.

...in the SOHC motor, the valves are perpendicular to the piston crown; so eyebrowing the piston crown is not the way to relieve the piston crown for more valve clearance. That would require a saucer like cut. But cutting a relief saucer in to the top of the piston would diminish the purpose of going with flattop pistons: to provide the most compact burn chamber possible for the purpose of achieving fast burn.

I can see the possibility of such valve reliefs in the piston crown on a SOHC piston only if using a camshaft of VERY high lift...in a very tight squish motor. The T cam does not lift the valves above the head deck surface. An A cam will lift the valves 0.020in above the head deck...on an unsurfaced head. The A cam can be borderline interference, depending on amount of head surfacing and amount of piston positive deck height. Going with cams of higher lift than the A cam will make a tight squish motor interference; or at least you should assume that to be the case. Precise measurements and calculations would confirm the situation on a particular motor build.

Absolute redline is a somewhat involved discussion; which I want to wait on. In the meantime:

the factory redline for the SOHC redblock is 6500 RPM....at least that is what is on the factory tachometers. I presume that to be pretty close to the actuality. Can you rev a stocker higher? sure. will it live? yeah....for a while.

Consider this: the stock redline is 6500 RPM: in a motor that has "heavy" pistons; in a motor that uses "weak" valve springs. Those are just two of the factors that affect redline. Would I go with "stronger" valve springs? no. Stronger valve springs have their drawbacks; and for my purposes in a street motor, the drawbacks are not worth the supposed advantages. That is my opinion; others are welcome to theirs, and their choices.

My point here is that there IS more to it than just piston weight and valve spring pressures. And hopefully I can present my viewpoint on that coherently.

***

Dale, I remember.

***

Thomas Fritz
...the stealth FTi

Hank Scorpio

10-03-2004, 02:30 AM

wow lots of info, let me throw some pointless info in:

Heres what I would do:

B21ft, machine as necessary.
Skip oringing, just use a Copper sprayed Elring gasket. Remeber, oringing keeps the head gasket from acting like a FUSE, this means possible boom big way. Plus, you'll save money.
405 head, K cam
60 trim
BT injectors
you do the tuning via ms
T5.

He'll be able to beat that setup till the cows come home, will be pretty damn quick (if you can drive I think a 60trim will net you mid/low 13's on a light enough car) and pretty reliable. Use oem parts for the rebuild (deves rings? I believe thats what I've been using, seem to work well).

Thats it, trust me, that setup will work great.

stealthfti

10-05-2004, 01:43 AM

John,

some more of the preparatory things:

As suggested by Doug, I would forego the O ringing of the block; and put that money into the align honing or other block related items. Your choice of course, but unless you plan on running really high boost regularly, the money can be better spent elsewhere...like new valve springs, or new head bolts.

Some review of others' experiences of boost levels run vs HG problems would be in order; as would comments and suggestions by others on that aspect.

Some things won't be known until your MS tanks and mags things, and checks the dimensions.

I know that I am probably overlooking something, or forgetting something regarding the getting ready for the machine shop, and what we have covered so far. So any suggestions as to what I may have missed thus far is welcome.

One thing we haven't done yet is finalize the squish clearance to go for. Part of that decision is dependent on the RPM redline you choose to use. You will have to advise me of your choice on that.

The use of the motor has been stated; the desired redline is to be chosen....and discussed. There is one more area to bring up before we proceed with some assembly suggestions. That area is "expectations". And that gives me the most pause.

Why? because I do not want to nor do I intend to mislead you or anyone into thinking that by going tight squish you will suddenly have a motor that makes some amazing amount of power just because you tightened up the squish clearance. That isn't what tight squish does.

A very brief summary:

Tight squish is an assistant; it is an enhancer; it is an enabler.

...it assists in speeding up the burn rate by increasing the turbulence in the combustion chamber.
...the faster burn rate of the air fuel mix shortens the burn time; so the air fuel charge finishes burning sooner.
...the shorter burn time reduces the potential for detonation to occur, because the air fuel charge burns up before the pressures can rise enough to create detonation inducing pressure spikes.
...because tight squish does all of the above, it allows you to run higher static compression ratios, and the higher effective compression ratios that boost provides.

It is the higher static and effective compression ratios that makes the increases in power; the tight squish helps you run those higher compression ratios.

Normally, the way boost motors are set up is this [approximately]:

the low pressure turbo approach:
....SCR of 9.5:1 or higher; and low boost of about 7 PSI or less

the middle of the road:
....SCR of ~9:1; moderate boost levels above 7 PSI

the high boost build:
....SCR usually under 8:1; and boost out the wazoo

The reasons for these various combinations is one of octane limitation [AKA detonation resistance]: the higher the effective compression ratio that you want to achieve via the higher boost pressure was limited by the octane of the fuel. If you wanted the good offboost performance that a higher SCR would provide, you ran lower boost. To be able to run the high boost, you had to drop the SCR....or up the fuel octane rating....or both.

Tightening up the squish clearance enables some blurring of the lines; because tight squish reduces detonation potential. It could be said that tight squish is an octane booster.

How does this tie in to your motor?

Going tight squish with flattops is going to give you a static compression ratio definitely above 9:1. How much above would have to calculated out.

The high SCR will improve the offboost performance; and will affect just how much total boost you can run.

How tight to go with the squish clearance is a judgement call. As I already suggested, going for 0.035in to 0.037in will put the motor into tight squish. Originally, the B21FT was nowhere near good squish, much less tight squish. So going for 0.035in to 0.037in will be a great improvement. Coupled with the SCR increase from 7.5:1 to over 9:1, you will definitely see a power increase...even at stock boost levels. [Whether or not that would qualify as "insane power at 10 PSI", I do not know.]

From that point, the redline factors in. Because the redline will affect just how tight you can go squish wise.

****

more later,

Thomas Fritz
...the stealth FTi

luke242ti

10-05-2004, 03:30 AM

Thomas

once again your breadth and depth of knowledge in this subject is astounding! I have wanted to build a motor for a long time. This information makes me rethink what I was going to do and items I had no idea about. Thank you! It would be nice if you were a registered user so it was easier to find all of your incredibly informative posts.

thank you again

John your brother had a great idea to turn a motor build into a project! Best regards to the project and yours.

mikep

10-05-2004, 10:23 AM

Nice thread.

Use new rod bolts. Think of them as insurance.

For the naysayers who want to know why he is building a B21, why ask why? It is what it is, and it is a great honors project.
I have 2 going on just like it. Nice students deserve nice projects and the recognition that comes with it.

The Aspirator

10-06-2004, 02:32 AM

Wow, lots to catch up on! GREAT! Okay, here I go:

***
Thanks! This is getting me all excited. I just wish I had this kind of time and money to spend into a rebuild of my motor! Sometimes I feel like it's a ticking timebomb....:omg: .

JohnHAHAHAHAHA, I just noticed that I posted this up top. Well guess what? The timebomb finally blew:
http://www.vipinfoservices.com/john/images/myB230block01.jpg
Due to that I threw a rod bearing. So now I get to build up a new motor of my own too!

***
One other thing: are you using an old style exhaust manifold? or a 90+ manifold? I've read your Pbase site a few times, and understand your thoughts on this. Currently we're just using the pre-90 manifold. I think this will be something that we won't worry about right now, but will probably upgrade with later. Things like the 90+ manifold, bigger intercooler (NPR), bigger injectors, etc. Those are all bolt ons per-say. This round of work and money spent needs to go towards the shortblock itself, and whatever is needed to make it as powerful as possible and as strong as is reasonably possible. The rest can be dealt with later.
Whay not find a B23 or B230 shortblock? I always assumed people built B21s because it's what they had (and weren't rebuilding) or for racing regs. Why not go with the larger displacement?We're using a B21 platform because that's what we have available. Sure we could go out and find a '94 block with oil squirters built in, but in my mind that is money that we don't need to be spending at the moment. From what I've been reading, B21's can be nasty powerful if you build them right, especially when you've got a turbo involved. Sure, more displacement = more power, but for our goals of this buildup, the 2.1L should be plenty. Though for my car, there's no way I'm downgrading to a 2.1L, it's always going to be 2.3L or more.

...the used pistons need to be CLEAN. not for the aesthetics of 'lookin' purty'; but for the purposes of having CLEAN ring grooves. If the pistons are not already clean; the MS can clean them up so that they look like new. And that cleaning will clean the ring grooves without damage. I do not use ring groove scrapers. The potential for damage to the grooves is so great as to be almost a certainty. The pistons are currently spotless. Matt did a very good job of beadblasting them, so they're very clean on the outside. BUT, the ring grooves are still a little bit dirty. THANK YOU for advising against scraping the grooves out. Knowing me I would have spent a good hour with a small screwdriver or pocketknife scraping all the gunk out. Now I'll just let the machine shop handle it.

Who supplies the freeze plugs and intermediate shaft bearings is for you to work out with your MS. I have my MS install the freeze plugs. I could do it; but I am lazy. I install the oil gallery plugs later...after I brush out and thoroughly wash and flush the block and oil passages. That is definitely MY job; and my responsibility to make sure that those are clean. And it is my job to make sure that there are no restrictions to oil flow through the passages. For the oil galleys, do you just use long metal pipe cleaners? Are the galleys straight? How do you wash it out afterwards, just with the garden hose, or do you have your own solvent parts washer? I don't have one, so we'll have to figure something out.

***

Camshaft choice and absolute redline:
We have 4 different cams available to use for this motor. A-cam, B-cam, K-cam, T-cam. Going by what you said above, how a high lift cam might produce interference, I'm assuming that the K-cam is out of the question. I do like it and the way it reacts, but if we can tailor this motor to a different camshaft then that's cool too! Humm, I just had a though, would you want to shim that cam loosely then to compensate a bit for interference? Or is that kinda counterproductive?

Camshaft choice would undoubtedly have something to do with absolute redline.... right?

T-cam, I dunno, everybody says they're ghey for performance use and that they die off in the higher revs. This is a 17 yr old (almost 18) kid we're dealing with here, he likes to rev, keep that in mind. Although with Megasquirt and Spark, it's super easy for me to put a nasty rev limiter at whatever is needed, so yes, we need to decide that aspect right now.

For now I don't think we'll touch the valve springs, or any part of the head actually (cept the cam). With the stock valve springs it obviously won't rev to 8500rpm efficiently, but what will they do? Would a 7000 RPM redline be too much to ask? I set mine to 6600 the other night with my K-cam 6* advanced and B230F+T, it pulled hard all the way. I really don't know what to expect from this engine buildup. Stealth, I take it that you do know what to expect from it, and I'd like to hear your recommendation.

Skip oringing, just use a Copper sprayed Elring gasket. Remeber, oringing keeps the head gasket from acting like a FUSE, this means possible boom big way. Plus, you'll save money.Well, my headgasket blew a few days ago, thinned out my oil, and spun a rod bearing. I think it blew solely because of too much clyinder pressures (18psi from Holset, 9.8:1 compression) because there was no pinging and A/F ratios were happy. This blown headgasket f.ucked up my shortblock, and I'm kinda pissed about it. I do NOT want to have this happen to Erik's engine. It will be tuned very well and eventually get knock sensor ignition retard, so detonation will not be a huge issue. People like to use the HG as a fuse to prevent what.... detonation from squashing a rod on a poorly tuned K-jet car, right? Well if detonation is prevented, what's the harm in O-ringing? Just my oppinion, please argue at will.

I'll write more soon, just wanted to submit this before I loose it all from some stupid mistake.

John

Hank Scorpio

10-06-2004, 02:51 AM

John, was it a fresh head gasket?

Elring?

Are you SURE the head was torqued down completely? I ussualy give em a bit over what the manual says (another 90* turn worth).

The Aspirator

10-06-2004, 03:01 AM

1 month old headgasket, I forget if it was Elring or not. I got it from FCPgroton, and from them I've recieved elrings and other brands. It's still in my trunk, so I might be able to check it still, though it stuck to the head and block alot during removal.

I torqued it to 45ft/lbs, then 90* on every bolt. This is what the manual suggested and what I've read on the board many times, so this is what I did. Are you saying that you're giving it 45ft/lbs then another 180* turn?

John

Captain Bondo

10-06-2004, 03:06 AM

Hey bud, sorry to hear about the motor. We almost started a pool at work, predicting how many weeks it'd take to let go. :) If ya need a cheap interim motor you could probably get a hook up.

Just thought I'd add some small, relatively insignificant detail to stealth's post re: clean used pistons. Cleaning them oil return holes in the rings grooves is crucial- but one nice and cheap and easy thing to do is to drill em out to about 3mm.

Oh also I was wondering what the concern is re: the k making the car an interference motor? unless you plan on breaking t-belts it's sort of a non-issue isn't it?

Re revlimit: On a car with new early style valvesprings I would wind it to 7000 without major worries. Even a straight up k cam is prettly close to dead by then anyways. Besides with stock manifolds it won't be interested in moving air past that point also regardless of cam. Anything past that is just the proverbial wang measuring BS unless you're talking full race and a scary cam, sheetmetal intake, tubular header, 4.10 or shorter diff, etc.

Re: headgaskets- hmmm. It generally takes a good while for a blown hg to eat and engine from coolant in the oil, unless you mean that your hg was blown and you drove for a manner of days or even weeks without fixing it. And to load up the oil that fast it'd be blowing out the breather and etc everywhere. It'd have to be a spectacular blowout. I'd suspect the same detonation that killed the hg spun the bearing but that's just my guess.
The headgasket fuse idea assumes the car will be tuned to never see detonation, just like you buy life insurance even if you don't actually plan on dying anytime soon. But, you get insurance becuase sh!t happens. It just does. Your fuel pump relay takes a dump, a vac line to the fuel pressure reg ruptures, who knows? But the idea is it's better to lose a headgasket (and you will suspect it right away after something catastrophic happens) and then fix it on the spot than have something screw up and bend a rod. A knock retard ignition will not save you if for some reason you have a major fuel delivery at high load. The save grandmas who put the wrong gas in on the way back from IGA. ;-)

Oh and also, i am of the opinion that you cannot actually say your engine is tuned "right" and is "detonation free" until it is set on a dyno and everything is mapped and plotted and tested with a 4 gas or better. Sure that will earn me some scoffing from the peanut gallery... :)

on edit: just saw your latest- if you want some early headbolts we have a big bucket of 'em.

The Aspirator

10-06-2004, 03:28 AM

Hey Ken, thanks for the comments. I've been meaning to PM you about my car situation but haven't gotten around to it. Here's what happened: I took one run at the dragstrip, everything went alright. A while later I took another run, drove alright. But when I was getting my timeslip I engulfed the car with white smoke from the tailpipe. Drove for one minute and parked it. Didn't think much about it, until I started it up about an hour later. Tons more white smoke. No coolant. Totally milky oil, just nasty green color (mobil 1 oil, about a month old). Oil was coming out the flame trap hose a little bit (yes, I finally put a flame trap hose on). I put my hand over the coolant tank with the engine running and felt it pressurize quickly. It idled for maybe 5 or 10 minutes, then we drove it to a Canadian Tire parking lot a few minutes away to park it for the night, cause I sure as hell wasn't going to drive it home with the oil like that. Next day my brother and I came with a new headgasket, swapped it in within a few hours, in the parking lot, and started it up. KNOCK KNOCK KNOCK KNOCK KNOCK. You know, that blood curdling, sickening noise. It was loud. It wasn't there the night before. I'm wondering if the rod bearings got a bit of surface rust on them or something, cause I noticed that my camshaft did, just from sitting overnight. Ohh well, after that I knew it was screwed, and I HAD to drive it the 1.5 hours back home to Vancouver. So here it sits. The knocking actually got much MUCH quieter once I got home, almost in audible. Weird, but whatever. I'll PM you Ken with some solution ideas, cause I've already got a few that I'd like to run by ya.

Ohh, and I certainly did notice that huge bucket of old style headbolts at your shop. I might just have to hit you up for a set or two of those.

So that's what happened to me last weekend!

John

Hank Scorpio

10-06-2004, 10:15 AM

What I do is follow the manual, AFTER I've torqued them all, I give them another 90* (not 180 in one blast). This worked fine on my preoringing days.

Im sorry, if you were running good AFR and no Knock theres no reason your motor should have let loose. Me thinks something else was going on there (ie, it was ready to go) combined with possibly a partially warped head or cheap head gasket.

The Aspirator

10-06-2004, 02:33 PM

swedishiron.com

10-06-2004, 08:10 PM

Hey Doug,
how on earth do you build a tool with enough leverage to go another 90* after the initial 90*? I can barely get my headbolts to go the final 20* or so, even with a cheater bar on the breaker bar. I guess I need to go to the gym more often...
Also, how does it NOT shear the engine mounts or snap off the headbolts in the block?
Most curious,
JD

The Aspirator

10-06-2004, 09:40 PM

After the 45ft/lb initial torque, the extra 90* isn't too hard for me. I use a bike handlebar at the end of my breaker bar, but I still don't find it that difficult. Maybe it's just different on differen't vehicles? I've done about 4 or 5 head installs lately. I could probably squeeze another 90* out of it without breaking something, but I'd be worried about deforming the head or something like that.

John

Hank Scorpio

10-06-2004, 11:45 PM

Maybe it was just a crappy headgasket, now that I think about it I doubt it was an elring.

But Doug, why are you advising against O-ringing on Eriks B21FT? You're O-ringed, and this motor buildup will be similar to yours, and putting out less power. You haven't had any problems with the O-rings right? Do you feel that on your motor, you want the HG to be a fuse? Just trying to pick your brain bud ;-) .

John

John, theres one reason. He's your brother? I don't know him... so I have no way of saying if he's going to be smart enough to let of when pinging ect.

Not to knock, just covering the bases. IF you think its safe to oring (like I said, think headgasket=fuse) then go for it. I really didn't have any real issues with using a copper sprayed elring (on a BCP head).

The extra 90*? Im just a muscle man I guess

stylngle2003

10-06-2004, 11:57 PM

John (and at the same time, Erik :wave:) this thread is shaping up to be fantastic, along the lines of Squish vs. Swirl. I can't wait to see what the end results are, and i wish i was keen enough to think of buiulding a motor for my senior project :rant:

when i get the time and money, i'll be starting a similar thread for building a b230 from the ground up, as thats what im planning (may end up being a b250 ;-)) for my next big project after the +T swap. keep up on the updates and great pics, and good luck with the MS

volvo-slyder

10-07-2004, 12:40 AM

Maybe a newb question but can a b23 head be fitted onto a b21 block?just wanted to know because i can get a b23 head for 70$ from a friend :???:

The Aspirator

10-07-2004, 01:58 AM

Maybe a newb question but can a b23 head be fitted onto a b21 block?just wanted to know because i can get a b23 head for 70$ from a friend :???:Yeah, it'll fit just fine, but unless it's a 405 head you're waisting your time. Unless of course your cylinder head is in poor condition, or this new one is in extremely good condition. But the 405 is a good upgrade.

Doug, I hear ya, and appreciate your oppinion. He's a young whipper snapper, and definately not as car savvy as I am. He just helped me replace my headgasket, and has done his onw all by himself. He knows what pinging is, has heard it, and would probably be smart enough to get outta the gas if he heard it...... if he were listening for it. He's got a thumpin' sound system in it, so he won't always be listening for it. Good point! Thanks for helping me realize it. I think the copper sprayed Elring might just be the way to go for him. I don't think he'll be using a bigger turbo than his 60/63, at least not for a long while.

Now for MY new engine, I think I'm gonna O-ringing the sucka. I've got the big turbo, high boost, way high compression, and a good ear. Plus no stereo.

Billy, glad you're here to learn with us!

John

The Aspirator

10-08-2004, 01:36 PM

Hey Stealth, are you still around? I think you mentioned you were leaving for the salt flats on the 10th, and will be gone till the 20th or so?

If possible, I'd like to get just a few things wrapped up here so we can start doing some work while you're gone. I guess we'll just start doing things in order. Get all the parts tanked and magnafluxed, and basically just start talking to different machine shops till I find one that can hook me up.

John

stealthfti

10-08-2004, 05:01 PM

John,

sometime over the weekend I will finish up what I want to suggest on the motor build.

TF

The Aspirator

10-08-2004, 05:42 PM

Thanks Tom. It certainly won't be finished in the next three weeks, but we hope to have a good start on it. I still have to take the time and teach all this to my brother!

*sidenote*
If I got a B23E for myself, it comes with 10:1 compression ratio. Say I wanted to drop the CR down a bit, to maybe 9.4ish, how would I do that and still keep a good squish? I'd assume mill the tops of the pistons down some, and deck the block. Obviously I remember everything you said above, so I'm not asking you to go over that again. But I remember in "Red Dragons" B23 stroker post you mentioned a concern for milling the tops of the pistons, something about not wanting the rings to sit too high on the pistons?

I know that there are some calculators out there that would tell me how much needs to be milled down, and also Matt Dupuis did a great writeup in this thread (http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=25533). Just wondered if there were any other aspects to it that I'm not aware of.

Thanks,

John

Matt Dupuis

10-09-2004, 09:55 AM

To drop compression ratio properly, you want to dish the pistons. However, the crown thickness of those flat top pistons are thinnest in the center part, where you'll be putting the dish. That's ALSO where the greatest concentration of heat will be. To get it down to 9.0:1, you've got to take out (just guessing here) a 2" circle, about 1/16" in depth. Ideally, you'd "reverse dome" the pistons, where the dish took on the same profile as the combustion chamber, to maximize squish. You probably wouldn't have to take out quite as deep of a cut, in that case. I believe the crown thickness is about .300", so if you're taking off .040" or less, I think it'll be alright, but there going to be even MORE sensitive to detonation damage afterwards, and they're already kinda soft in that department.

Matt Dupuis

10-09-2004, 10:05 AM

Hey, John - why don't you let me do up some sketches in AutoCAD this weekend and I'll get you a drawing to take to your machine shop, plus we'll be able to tell exacty how deep you want to go. I can do one for Eric's car if you like too, to get him down from 9.5-9.6:1 to 8.5:1 or so so he can run some boost without fear of pinging. What head is he using again?

I'll PDF the drawings once I'm done and send 'em to Dana for a place in the archives, and if someone else wants to do what you're doing, they can use 'em too.

The Aspirator

10-09-2004, 03:45 PM

Both the B21F and the B23E pistons are cast, correct? I just don't want either one to turn into Isaac's B23F, where his pistons broke at the ring lands.

Erik is using a 398 head, everything is beadblasted and clean, and all the valves are lapped pretty good.

The more I think about it, maybe Erik should have slightly lower compression in his engine...? Somewhere between 8.5 and 9.0 would probably work great, especially if we can get a tight squish in there. Now if pistons are dished in the middle, how does that effect squish? And if they're "reverse domed" that would probably enhance squish more right?

AutoCAD drawings would be awesome, though I don't have a CAD program to read them with. One of my good friends has a milling machine in his shop. It has a digital display that tells exactly how deep you're going to the millionth of an inch or something... So if I knew the exact dimentions and depth that needs to be milled off, I'm sure we could tackle it there. For free no less, and free is good.

Before milling, we will definately try and measure the thickness of the crowns on these pistons. So lets say they are .300" thick, and we need to take off a 2" circle at 1/16" depth, that's roughly 20% material taken off. They should still be plenty strong with 80% left eh?

One last question. Instead of taking out a 2" circle at 1/16" depth, why not just take a whole slice off the top of like 1/32"?? That way they'd still be flat top pistons, it'd be easier to mill, and they'd be thicker. Just a thought.

John

stylngle2003

10-09-2004, 03:53 PM

John, i'm pretty sure that "reverse domed" pistons are the same as "dished" ones.

from my understanding, squish is the distance from the piston top to the head (i.e wherever they are closest, like around the outside of the piston to the side of the combustion chamber) so dishing the piston doesnt affect squish distance. i may be worng about this, but thats just how i interpreted the data in Squish vs Swirl.

i think the reason you dont wanna remove a whole layer (a slice if you will) from the piston is because it moves the rings closer to the chamber, which ins't good

i think it would be good to run less compression on your brother's car bc that means 2 things: he can ultimately run more boost, and also it has greater ping resistance until he boosts it too much. so its safer for someone who likes to listen to their stereo more than their engine ;-)

Captain Bondo

10-09-2004, 04:55 PM

Why not lower cr via cleaning up the combustion chambers? I'm pretty sure you could lose 0.3-0.5 without too much trouble and/or removal of squish area. Just a thought.

Matt Dupuis

10-09-2004, 07:17 PM

What I meant by "reverse domed" is to mill out a shape that mirrors the shape of the combustion chamber. That leaves the entire squish band intact, similar to a flat top, unlike a cylindrical dish. The ring lands would stay solid, unless you allowed the shape to extend out to the edge of the piston (as does the shape of the combustion chamber.)

Milling off the top of the piston just puts the piston further down the hole, and kills your squish.

Kenny's right, of course: You could take out some volume from the combustion chamber. I'm afraid of how much you'd have to take out, though, and what it would do to the swirl. Flow would probably go up... maybe... possibly... if you do everything right... if you know what you're doing.

The chamber porting would be less expensive but more time consuming, and you'd have to measure your chambers while you're doing it, to make sure that the volumes stay consistent cylinder to cylinder. Getting a CNC to carve up the pistons will be much easier and you'll be sure that they're all the same. However, you'll be weakening the pistons, but lightening them up too. Pros and cons...

stealthfti

10-10-2004, 04:16 AM

John,

I can understand your concern on SCR....for your motor and for your brother's motor. The higher the SCR, the lower the total boost level that can be used; and the more precise the ignition timing has to be.

The flattop B21F pistons do not have the thickness of material in the crown to accomodate machining a dish of sufficient depth to lower the compression ratio enough solely by doing that machining. And, as Matt pointed out, removing a layer of material from the entire crown is counterproductive. I would not recommend thinning the crown on those cast pistons. If you determine that dishing the pistons is necessary, then I suggest that the better course of action would be to install B21FT pistons: they have a 6.1mm [0.240in] dish.

As Cappy suggested, opening up the combustion chambers several cc's would be an effective way to lower the SCR. There is material across from the spark plug, on the other side of the valves, that could be removed to increase the CC volume a sufficient amount; and without weakening the head. Removal of material there would not necessarily diminish squish action; it would increase the volume of the CC without making the distances for the flame to travel overly long: you would be widening the combustion chamber.

Basically, it boils down to three choices on the B21FT motor build:
...install B21FT pistons with the 6.1mm [0.240in] dish,
...open up the combustion chamber several cc,
...or do both.

If budgetary constraints are such that obtaining B21FT pistons is not feasible, then combustion chamber enlargement is the direction that you will have to take. Some actual volume measurements of the combustion chambers, and calculations of the static compression ratio will need to be performed in order to establish just where the motor build will be with the flattops deck clearanced for good squish. The Mahle catalog lists the B21F flattops as being 9.3:1 SCR; but that is more of a comparison number than a precise number.

All that said, I still have a feeling that the main issues, and the resulting contradictions, are not being addressed.

The issues: a budget build for the joint purposes of a reliable daily driver and a weekend racer. The contradictions: the cross purposes of reliability and racing on a budget.

How so? A reliable DD on a budget is doable. And to a point, a racer on a budget is also doable. The budget limits the race capabilities. The race use affects the reliability. Because the race use will make the temptation to up the boost for that "little bit more power" irresistable. Enough is never enough; and the easy way to get more is to up the boost. And every time the boost gets upped just a little bit to get just a little bit more, the reliability takes a hit.

For a reliable DD that runs stronger than stock, a tight squish high SCR motor is very good. For the weekend racer, the high SCR is going to be a barrier that will be ignored....sooner or later. The contradictions will be resolved: something will break.

Rather than creating the contradictions, the build should be done to accomodate the reality: do the build with a lower SCR. That way the temptations that are not resisted won't kill the motor as quickly.

I am not saying this as a complaint; but as an acknowledgement of the reality.

TF

The Aspirator

10-10-2004, 04:55 AM

Matt Dupuis

10-10-2004, 10:16 AM

stealthfti

10-10-2004, 11:13 PM

Thanks guys, it looks like opening up the combustion chambers will be the easiest and cheapest way of doing things. Below is a picture of my 405 before any work, and I still don't know why the cylinder is so much larger than the combustion chamber....? Wouldn't you benefit from blending down the sidewalls to be a lot smoother of a transition? It's just that when I see pictures of extensive head porting, this is never done. So I'm sure there is a reason.

http://www.j2mediagroup.com/john/405-02.jpg

Stealth, one big reason for the B21F pistons is that they're 1st oversize. And higher compression. We still have Erik's B21FT pistons, and they might do alright with just a hone and new rings. But they're SUPER low compression, is there a way to raise that? What if we milled the tops down a bit, and decked the block alot? Then that would probably screw up the cam timing and such.... But if there were a way to use those pistons and raise compression, we might consider it because that would take off the cost of boring the cylinders. I dunno.

Stealth, you mentioned doing both. Installing the B21FT pistons and porting the combustion chamber, but wouldn't that result in like 7.0:1 compression?????

John

John,

in my last post, I was listing the options for lowering the SCR; and I did the job poorly. I was not intending to advocate a particular choice. And as I review it all, I may have come across as dissing Matt's autocad suggestion. [A mirror dish would be sweet.] I did not intend that. So: my apologies, Matt.

I am confused: which head is going on your brother's motor? the 398 or the 405?

Actually, as I have thought about this some since, I have decided to be more pro-active, and clearer; and suggest that you go with the flattops; possibly do some combustion chamber enlargement via either a shallow mirror dish and/or some head CC work; go for 37 to 35 squish; and start out with the A or B cam.

Doing some combustion chamber size increases would be good. But, if you do not enlarge the CCs, the SCR will not be unmanageable. You are close to Cappy; discuss the head CC work with him. He can and will advise you well on that. He won't let you kill the squish.

I would suggest that, for the B21FT built with flattops and tight squish, you will notice a considerable power increase offboost, during transition to boost, and in boost.

You will have to start off with boost settings on the conservative side when it is built. And the same goes for the redline. I would suggest that 10 PSI and 5500 are good starting points.

Yeah, that IS conservative. But the reason to start off like that is to allow you time to get used to the tight squish and fast burn. It will be different from what you are used to.

Tight squish/higher SCR does have its drawbacks: it is more sensitive to stupidity. So: don't be stupid. Build the motor carefully; run it in carefully; and get to know what it can do. Starting out with a conservative boost and redline, I would suggest that the way to find the power potential would be to try to optimize the power output at that boost level, and under that redline. Tuning for more power will no longer be just a matter of cranking up the boost. It will take more thought and prep than that. When you have done what you can at 10/5500 to get the most output, you will find that the next level up will be easier to fine tune.

A tight squish/fast burn/higher SCR motor also has its attractions: it will WANT to run and make power. You won't have to force it to make power. Your job will be more of removing the hindrances that hold it back.

An example that would apply to both points: exhaust flow. I am fairly certain that you will find it necessary to improve the exhaust flow with a 90+ manifold and 3in system. That stuff won't be an option; it will be essential. That motor will be demanding it.

In case I don't have time to post more on the motor build before leaving, I wanted to add a couple of things:

...for the main and rod bearing clearances, I would suggest going for 0.002in.
...for the piston to cylinder wall clearances, I would go for 0.002in.

those clearances are on the loose side of how I prefer to set things up; but will lend themselves well to a weekend warrior.

I hope this helps clear up the confusion I may have caused with my last post. I think the 1st OS flattops are the way to go.

TF

The Aspirator

10-11-2004, 03:27 AM

Thomas, that was wonderful. Clear and concise, I totally understood it.

Sorry I confused you, Erik will be using a 398 head for now. And we have both an A-cam and a B-cam that we could use, I guess they're fairly similar, so it doesn't matter much.

I also agree completely that setting the limits at 10psi and 5500 rpm would be ideal to get things started. With Megasquirt and Spark I'll be able to set a nasty rev limiter on him, that he won't be able to change. And I'll just tell him not to up the boost. There's also an overboost fuel cut option that I haven't tried yet, but I'm sure it'll work wonderfully.

Once we both get a good feel for this engine, and get it broken in, then we can start upping the boost. But I think as it stands, with the 10psi/5500rpm, it'll be pretty damn quick anyways. We're not trying to build a 12 second car right now, just something super reliable and damn quick. I really thing we're on the right track so far. Once things get settled, and numbers start going up, I don't think I'll let the engine rev much more than 6,500 rpm, so I guess we could call that our absolute redline.

As for exhaust, he's already got a 3" system installed, except it's using a B21ft downpipe. Very shortly after getting this motor done and installed we will upgrade that to a 3" mandrel downpipe and cat. The 90+ manifold might have to wait a little bit, but it'll be on the upgrade list. If I have time and energy I might end up trying to port his pre-90 manifold, turbine housing and wastegate hole. We'll see.

As you said, the drawback of a higher compression motor is that it's more sensitive to stupidity. I think we will not O-ring it, but rather use a copper sprayed Elring as Doug suggested. Also, it obviously has Megasquirt and Spark. Soon enough I'll implement a knock sensor with LED, and megasquirt will pull ignition timing whenever it knocks. This will allow some leeway for bad gas or other odd things (stupidity). I'll throw my Wideband O2 sensor on there for a while and get things tuned nice and safe fuel wise.

Thanks for the clearance numbers, I still have to pick up one of those Volvo Green Manuals. I think the project might actually start up this week. First up is to get the parts hot tanked and magnafluxed. I'll be sure to update this thread with tips and tricks that I'm learning along the way.

John

Hank Scorpio

10-11-2004, 10:08 AM

Yeah, it'll fit just fine, but unless it's a 405 head you're waisting your time. Unless of course your cylinder head is in poor condition, or this new one is in extremely good condition. But the 405 is a good upgrade.

Doug, I hear ya, and appreciate your oppinion. He's a young whipper snapper, and definately not as car savvy as I am. He just helped me replace my headgasket, and has done his onw all by himself. He knows what pinging is, has heard it, and would probably be smart enough to get outta the gas if he heard it...... if he were listening for it. He's got a thumpin' sound system in it, so he won't always be listening for it. Good point! Thanks for helping me realize it. I think the copper sprayed Elring might just be the way to go for him. I don't think he'll be using a bigger turbo than his 60/63, at least not for a long while.

Now for MY new engine, I think I'm gonna O-ringing the sucka. I've got the big turbo, high boost, way high compression, and a good ear. Plus no stereo.

Billy, glad you're here to learn with us!

John

Best bet John, install a knocksense on his car. Boris had to picked the worlds brightest LED for it (luckily). I think you can do ok on a true block/head with just a copper sprayed Elring.

blkaplan

10-11-2004, 10:17 AM

when all is said and done this thread should be consolidated and made into a article

The Aspirator

10-11-2004, 12:35 PM

Best bet John, install a knocksense on his car. Boris had to picked the worlds brightest LED for it (luckily). I think you can do ok on a true block/head with just a copper sprayed Elring.Yup, that's what I meant. I've got one sitting here waiting to go into my car. Can't wait to see how bright this thing really is! Where did you place your LED?

Boris once told me that if you put this LED anywhere within 30* of your face, it'll poke your eye out! :rofl:

John

stealthfti

10-13-2004, 12:31 AM

John,

Get the 398 head combustion chambers checked for cc's. I ran some numbers; and verified them as best I could. You need to have the CCs to be at least 55cc; and preferably 58-60cc. That will bring the SCR down to about 9.3:1 with 58cc CCs.

The flattops, the 1st OS, and the decking for plus 10 kicks the SCR up real fast.

Talk to Cappy on that before you turn someone loose on that head with a die grinder. The objective is to get to 58cc or more; but without killing the squish area and action. It can be done. And of course, you want all four to be the same size.

This is important: to get the SCR into the lower 9's, and keep the tight squish. There is material opposite the spark plug that can be removed and reshaped to open up the CC without hurting the squish action. The hump next to the spark plug can be blended back a tad as well. I strongly discourage removing any material between the valves; ie, between the cylinders themselves. Some do this calling it radiusing the wall for improved flow. You need the meat there between the cylinders. Don't remove any metal there.

Cappy and I have gone around and around on this in the past. He can explain what you need to do to that 398 head.

TF

The Aspirator

10-14-2004, 03:14 AM

I talked to Kenny (captain bondo) for a little while today. We kind of came to the conclusion that it would be much better to start with a 405 head rather than a 398. Since we are trying to enlarge the combustion chamber, it would be easier to start with the 405. According to the article on the T-bricks homepage by Mike Aaro...

398: 51.7cc
405: 53.7cc

If my eventual goal is 58cc's, that's a LOT of grinding to the 398. And my inexperienced hands would feel vulnerable to messing up an effective chamber. According to literature, a B23 with a 398 head has 10.3:1 compression ratio, but the same engine with a 405 has just 10:1 SCR. So a rough estimate would conclude that a 2cc bigger chamber would equal .3 less of a compression ratio. So if I brought the 405 head out to 58cc's, I could estimate a drop of .845 in the compression ratio as opposed to using a stock 398 head! Wow, that's PLENTY.

The problem is that I live about an hour's drive away from my brother, so we can't really work on this project each and every day. That's why we haven't really started yet, cause I haven't had the chance to get down there. I'll be heading down there for a few days here soon, so we'll see what I get accomplished.

John

andrew_d

10-14-2004, 04:46 AM

700volts

10-14-2004, 08:46 AM

This thread rocks!!!

:evil:

Matt Dupuis

10-14-2004, 08:54 AM

Is it an established fact that B23 had the same pistons in both 10.3:1 and 10:1 verisons?
I wonder how it can be that swapping a head on B230F from 530 to 531 gives a 0.5 CR drop from 9.8:1 to 9.3:1 but doing supposedly the same thing on B23 drops it only 0.3? Do 405/531 heads have different CC size? Do 398/530 heads have different CC size?
I'm 100% sure that B230F(9.8:1) and B230FB/FX (9.3:1) pistons are the same. Actually, entire bottom end is the same ...
Just curiosity.
Yes it's an established fact that both engines you mentioned had flat top pistons. However, what's not clear is the deck height of any of the blocks that were delivered from Volvo. It's of the opinion of some that they machined more or less from the block to change the compression ratio slightly for different markets It may be that the B230F had the same pistons and bottom end, but with a little bit more taken from the top of the block, than the B230FB/FX, and when you combine that volume with the volume in the combustion chamber, you get the 0.5:1 C/R change.

Not to mention, that's an "advertized" compression ratio. Volkswagen is notorious for over-selling the CR of their motors, to adjust for "used conditions", where carbon builds up on top of the pistons, raising the compression ratio to get the engine up to near the advertized number. It's possible that the B230FB/FX actually had 9.5:1, or the B230F had 9.5:1, or BOTH had 9.5:1.

The Aspirator

10-14-2004, 01:49 PM

I have quite a few tips to share that I've recently picked up. Now, Matt/Thomas/Kenny already know this stuff in and out, but the rest of us noobs can really benefit from learning this!

Subject: Pre-ignition

I've been talking to all these guys, and reading Corky Bell's book "Maximum Boost", and I'm learning a hell of a lot of neat stuff. There are MANY ways to combat detonation, not just lower compression. Corky says that for example an improperly setup 7.0:1 compression motor might detonate a lot more than a 9.0:1 comp motor with proper squish/etc. So it's all how you set it up.

One thing I just learned about was "hot spots in the combustion chamber". All holes should be chamfered and all threads chased with a sharp tap. Every edge and every corner should be deburred. Inspect for casting flash and casting process roughness and remove accordingly. The combustion chambers should be deburred and all small edges radiused or blended into the surrounding material. All unengaged spark plug threads should be removed. The purpose is, of course, to eliminate hot spots that could serve as potential ignition sources.The way I understand that is that every little sharp edge could get really hot (from lots of boost, lets say) and pre-ignite the mixture before the spark plug lights up. Meaning, detonation. Now what can cause hot spots to get hot in the first place? HOT charge air. A good intercooler will combat this well. As would a water injection system that comes on at say 5psi. Anything to get the intake air colder is an improvement.

Here is a picture I took so you can visualize what I'm talking about:
http://www.j2mediagroup.com/john/405-06.jpg
Look between the valve seats, see that little ridge sticking up around the perimiter? Could this be a possible hot spot? Also if the spark plug itself doesn't thread all the way into the head, those extra unengaged thread could be hot spots too.

(notice also how the right valve seat has a dull shine to it, this is what lapping the valves does. It provides a good seal between the valve and the valve seat. A more complicated method is a 3 or 5 angle valve job)

Here is an image from the Stealth's site showing roughly where a spark plug is located, and how far it's threaded in. (Also if you've ever heard talk about "indexing" spark plugs, this means having all 4 heads point the exact same direction in the combustion chamber, further making each cylinder burn just like the rest)
Click here (http://www.pbase.com/stealthfti/image/25123263)

And here is a big picture of his showing what a nicely smoothed and shaped combustion chamber looks like:
Click here (http://www.pbase.com/stealthfti/image/25355207/original)

More later, we'll try to document the entire process with pictures and descriptions.

John

dl242gt

10-14-2004, 04:30 PM

One of the interesting things pointed out to me by Pierre is that the metal casting quality is better on the higher output factory heads. He told me that when polishing the combustion chambers the 405 polishes to a brighter, smoother, finish than any of the 160 and 398 heads he has worked on. This may also apply to the 530 vs the 531. So a better finish in the combustion chamber in the first place will also help eliminate potential hot spots.

Best regards,

Volv-a-Ratti Man

10-14-2004, 04:46 PM

This is a good thread to introduce myself.
Hello, I am new to T-Bricks but not to Volvo's. Been over at Club Volvo for a while, and thought I'd migrate a bit.
I've got a project going to take a super modified B21F that I had a pro shop re-build for my now deceased '78 242GT. It is a high (9.5:1) compression engine with a +.060 overbore and Mahle alloy flat-top pistons and rods with 1" mains. I had originally wanted to make a great rally beast of this 180 hp n/a motor that has an R grind cam on it (not actually sure, but I got it in '87 from IPD and is NLA due to emissions in the US, very high lift and overlap), but has been sitting for almost 10 yrs and only 50 miles on the motor. The guy that did the head for me was a drag race specialist and did his magic on the head, which is a 398 head. He opend up the combustion chamber to the piston diameter and made a swirl around the edge between the intake an exhasut valve with about a 1/4 radius, deepening into a hollow in the middle of the combustion chamber. Behind the intake and exhaust valve, he sculpted the ports to large smooth radius, tapering down to where the valve seats started. When he was done, it had a mirror finish. He then planed .030 off the head to reduce the gap between the piston and combustion chamber and raise the '79 B21F stock compression.
A note to you guys from them old timer that did my motor, scrap those dished out pistons that came on the early 8.7:1 n/a taht came in my 242GT (what POS motor!) or 7:1 Turbo motors. He said the porting and polish will do more than anything to improve combustion and you'd want to bump the compression up anyway. Since he had a Lotus Esprite Turbo apart on the bench next to my motor, I took his word for it.
The 242GT flew for only a short time, but it's time now to resurect the motor. I've got a turbo and manifold along with the Turbo+ kit from an '89 780 Bertone and plan on dropping it into my '89 245. Initially I want to use the LH 2.4 to see how it behaves, but ultimately think I need a secondary system to control fuel at WOT, like plumbing the K-Jet injectors with a valve operated pressure regulator and the fuel distributor in-line with the LH2.4 AMM. That means an 8 injector system, using a low boost and BOV somewhere aroung 5-8 psi.
I'm just beginning on the new project, so , I'll be back with more questions and comments as I get farther along.
In the mean time, my new V70 2.5T is nice, but just isn't fast enough either! I had a built '68 144 that was a lot faster than any stock Volvo turbo I've ever had (1/4's in the high 13's), so now it's time to get a built turbo. Maybe some competition for Doug who's probably lurking around here somewhere.
Oh, and Hi Dave!
Peter

Captain Bondo

10-15-2004, 02:30 AM

Hey man, that ridge is exactly the spot I was trying to explain getting rid of when you came by the little shop of horrors the other day. Basically you take all of that "roughness" on the roof of the chamber down so it is flush with the valve seats. Making that all smooth will eliminate hotspots like you just read about.

I was thinking, btw- I have a nice new Blue-Point variable speed 1/8" air pencil (tiny die grinder especially for porting) I bought to port my head, and i also have a portable compressor. Prob is I have no bits yet. If you can track down some bits I could bring that stuff by and we could clean the head up if you're free on a monday. Oh, I have the stuff to cc the chambers too. hit me up on pm if you're interested. I wouldn't mind some practice and if we eff it up I have multiple 398's if need be. :)

stealthfti

10-24-2004, 02:23 AM

John,

I can understand your desire to start with the 405 head because of the larger cc CC to start with.

I suggested the actual cc'ing of the 398 head to confirm the CC volume because I really do think that the footprint of the 398 head would be better than the 405 would be, on a 1st OS B21. I like to have as close to a complete circle of squish area around the piston. To illustrate my point: take a B21 HG, and lay it onto a 398 head and look at the amount of head surface that is inside the fire ring. Then do the same overlay on a 405 head. There will be less of an overlap over the fire rings between the cylinders.

I realize that I cannot offer 'proof' or 'evidence' that having a squish area all the way around the CC is either a necessity or something that is even important. I can only offer the evidence that 'where' there is a good tight squish clearance over the ringland areas of the piston, those areas of the ringland will run cooler...because of the boundary layer proximity heat transfer that does occur where the squish clearance is tight. And I believe that keeping the ringlands as cool as possible is a very good thing.

The other reason that I would recommend the 398 head as the better one to start with is because of that extra aluminum between the cylinders. The more metal there between the bores, the stronger and more rigid the head casting will be between the bores.

If you can see your way to understand what I am driving at from the squish area and strength of the casting between the bores viewpoint, then I would suggest that you get a disposable syringe or a small beaker that holds 25 cc or 50 cc of liquid, and put 5 or 6 cc of water in it. It actually is not that much of a volume. There is room to remove that much metal on the other side of the CC across from the spark plug. That 'straight' wall over there can be rounded out a bit away from the spark plug.

I understand that such an undertaking of enlarging the CC volume can be quite intimidating; but the benefits of getting the CC volume up to about 58 cc for that tight squish flattop B21FT will be worth it. You will get the SCR down to under 9.4:1, which will enable you to run higher boost levels as time progresses. [whether or not you will HAVE to run higher boost levels is yet to be seen]

Getting the combustion chambers to the needed size and uniformly sized IS worth the effort. And if you have to practice on a junk head, so be it.

For a comparison purpose, and for a reference purpose: I spend about 40 hours assembling the shortblock; and I spend almost that much time on the cylinder head itself. I don't flat rate a motor build: however much time it takes to get it 'right as rain' is how much time it takes......attention to details takes time. I have the time AND take the time to do the job right [or as close to 'right' as I can possibly get it] the first time. Having to redo a job is more than a double loss to me. Fortunately, I don't have to redo a job very often.

What I am trying to get across is this: if you want that motor to live, and if you want it to be durable, it is not going to be a "wham bam thank you ma'am" proposition. "Quickies" are for another area of life's experiences.

****

Pre-ignition is not the same thing as detonation. Pre-ignition can actually have more catastrophic results than detonation because it can occur anytime after the intake valve opens....something to further your research and analysis. And yes, getting rid of sharp edges is a very good thing to do.

TF

The Aspirator

10-25-2004, 03:14 AM

*don't have much time right now but I'll get started*

Kenny, I found a really sweet set of 1/8" bits from HarborFreight.com, I'll probably get them.

Stealth, I kinda understand what you're getting at with the above post, but I'll have to read it a few more times to have it really set in. And I will, just not right now. But I like where you were going with it, if we don't have to spend the money on a 405 then we certainly don't want to. Pretty much the only reason to get it would be to start off with a larger CC, the performance gains would be a side benefit. But if we can work our current 398 out to 58cc's, GREAT. Also, I've already put many hours into the 398 we have. Dissasembling, cleaning, bead blasting, lapping, etc. It's CLEAN and good to go. I've got many more questions that will come when I start messing around with it.

Once I get further into this build, there are many other aspects that I'm looking forward to discussing. Tiny little questions like during the actual assembly of the engine, break in period procedures, etc. We don't need to get into this yet, but I'm just planning ahead. I've been keeping a binder where I'm writing down questions that I want answered, parts I have to buy, things I have to learn, and the procedure of the machining to be done. Which reminds me, I've got a list that I'll post tomorrow of every machining process that I think will be done, and in order. More tomorrow.

Pre-ignition is not the same thing as detonation. Pre-ignition can actually have more catastrophic results than detonation because it can occur anytime after the intake valve opens....something to further your research and analysis. And yes, getting rid of sharp edges is a very good thing to do.
That struck me as a bit odd when I first read it, but then it got me damn curious. I spent a few hours flipping through "Maximum Boost" by Corky Bell, and I couldn't for the life of me find a good description defining the two as different. Although 2 minutes of searching on google did turn up some interesting results, I just haven't had the chance to read them yet. I will.

This thread is FAR from dead, it just laid dormant for a week while I was planning the buildup even further. I spent some time with my brother and dad, figuring out a timeline and cost. Costs will easily exceed $1000 US, but hopefully not too much more than that. Time will tell. I also printed out this entire thread (all 58 pages of it in landscape view). Reviewing every post I wrote down all that needs to be done, then put those processes in order. Next I'll put a price next to each one and see what I get!

John

stealthfti

10-25-2004, 11:38 AM

that sounds good, John. All in due course.

I would suggest that you find an old 160 head: it has the same size CC. And practice on it for the CC enlargement. They are easy to find and cheap to buy. That way, you get to perfect your CC-sizing skills on a practice piece.

Laying out the plan is a good idea. It can help you find the ways to keep the costs closer to budget.

yeah: pre-ignition and detonation are often confused, leading to incorrect diagnoses.

TF

Captain Bondo

10-25-2004, 02:43 PM

Hey sounds good man. Sorry for the lack of response- been down w/ the flu.
Basically we need a 3/8" ball cutter and a couple of "olive" ones- a 3/8" and then one a little smaller maybe. If you want to do a basic port cleanup on the bowls that should be cool too.

We can pull more cylinder heads if we need- my boss will give me useless old 160's pretty much endlessly as well. Is your 398 an scp?

The Aspirator

10-25-2004, 03:23 PM

I've got several crappy 398's and 160 heads sitting in my shop, probably 3 or 4. Plenty to practice on! Can't wait to start tearing into them.

Ken, here are the burrs I was talking about:
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=38699

And here we can get any individual ones that we might need:
http://www.mcmaster.com/ctlg/DisplCtlgPage.asp?reqtyp=CATALOG&ctlgedition=110&ctlgpgnbr=2470&sesnextrep=429285485998946&ScreenWidth=1024&McMMainWidth=812
http://www.mcmaster.com/ctlg/DisplCtlgPage.asp?reqtyp=CATALOG&ctlgedition=110&ctlgpgnbr=2471&sesnextrep=429285485998946&ScreenWidth=1024&McMMainWidth=812

Since we're putting a good amount of effort into Erik's 398 head, I would like to port it out a bit, just to enhance it further while we're in there.

John

The Aspirator

10-25-2004, 04:47 PM

Wow I just found some really cool information on Dave Bartons webpage about reshaping the combustion chamber of his 398 from 51.7cc to 59cc!

http://www.linkline.com/personal/dbarton/B23FT.html

<BIG>Head Used for this Project:</BIG> "1000398" casting with 3/85 date code (small coolant passage) (Click for Photos) (http://www.linkline.com/personal/dbarton/NewHead.jpg). Combustion chambers opened from OEM 51.7 cc to 59 cc. Chambers were re-shaped slightly and valves unshrounded. Click here (http://www.linkline.com/personal/dbarton/CCTemplate.jpg) to see the actual template used by my machinist (Measurements in this photo are in centimeters). Or click here (http://www.linkline.com/personal/dbarton/CC-Scan.jpg) to see an actual scanned image of the #4 combustion chamber (Measurements for this photo are in 10ths of an inch).
OEM turbo (Stellite faced, sodium filled) valves and the later style OEM valve springs are used.
The next photo shows a comparison between the OEM combustion chambers (51.7 cc) and the modified ones (59 cc). Also, it's easy to see the difference between the big coolant passage (BCP) head and the more desireable small coolant passage (SCP) head. Click here for the photo (http://www.linkline.com/personal/dbarton/HeadCompare.jpg). Sweeeeeeet.

John

The Aspirator

11-01-2004, 04:32 AM

I took our crank to the machine shop the other day and had him look at it. He said the spun rod bearing surface didn't look too bad and that .020" would probably take care of it easily. I made sure that he would hot tank it, magnaflux it, and check it for straightness too. Next step is to take the rest of the parts in.

Here is a list I've compiled of the machining processes that need to be done. PLEASE comment if I'm missing anything or if something is wrong. I wrote it just by reading this whole thread carefully and taking notes. I'm basically giving this list to my machine shop, so if there are any other notes he needs to know, or if something is out of order, please tell me.

Check spun crank bearing surface and check for straightness
If okay, turn the crank to .020 (machine shop said that’d do it)
Hot tank block, rods, crank, intermediate shaft, etc.
Magnaflux block, rods, crank
Resize main bearings and align hone
Verify rods are straight
Resize rods (we want main and rod bearing clearances of .002”)
Check rod bolts for stretch
Clean out ring grooves on pistons
Bore cylinders to 1<SUP>st</SUP> OS pistons using boring bar, bore to .017”OS
Align hone cylinders the last .003” to reach the .020OS ( .002” piston to cylinder wall clearance wanted)
Measure rod center to center after resizing
Measure main bearing center to top of deck after resizing
Measure piston wrist pin center to top of piston
Offset hone NEW wrist pin bushings to compensate for rod/main resizing
Deck block to achieve optimum squish clearance of .035”-.037” (compressed height of a new Elring headgasket is .047”)
Balance the crank, rods, pistons, wrist pins, flywheel, pressure plate, and crank pulley
John

stealthfti

11-01-2004, 03:12 PM

John,

along with a copy of the green manual,

I would make the list like this:

Volvo B21FT

desired clearances:
main bearings: 0.002in
rod bearings: 0.002in
piston to cyl wall: 0.002in
piston deck height: positive 0.010in to 0.012in
note: Volvo does not publish a block deck height dimension; that will have to be measured and calculated. The final piston positive deck height will also have to be measured and calculated.

engine block:
...hot tank, magnaflux test for cracks, esp the main bearing journal webbing of the block
...new intermediate shaft bearings, running clearances as per green manual.
...new freeze plugs
...check main bearing journals for size and alignment: align hone and resize as needed: the goal is two thou running clearance on the crank, with proper shell crush.
...bore cylinders for 1st OS pistons; to maintain or restore bore perpendicularity to the crank centerline
[verify 1st OS dimensions with green manual; and dimension the used pistons for final sizing of final honing]
...check deck surface for flat; surface as necessary to achieve the final positve piston deck height of plus ten to plus twelve, once the rods and pistons are prepared and measured.

crankshaft:
...verify machinability to restore spun rod journal
...hot tank and magnaflux test for cracks
...check for straightness
...grind journals to needed undersize; the goal being 0.002in running clearances on both mains and rod bearings. rod axial clearances to be within green manual specifications; as is the crank thrust bearing clearance.

rods and pistons:
...hot tank and magnaflux rods
...check for straightness
...check rod bolts/nuts for strength
...resize rod big ends; rebush pin ends
note: Volvo rods are full float type; bushing to pin clearances as per green manual
...verify rod lengths are uniform
...clean pistons; verify pin bores for roundness and clearance; clean ring grooves for replacement rings; check ring lands for groove condition for proper ring ftiment in piston ring grooves

deck height: once the crank, rods and pistons have been prepared, the dimensions can be added up to determine the amount of block deck material to be milled to achieve the plus twn to plus twelve piston deck height....and to make sure that the block deck surface is both parallel and perpendicular to the crank centerline: to achieve the same postive deck height on all four pistons.

balancing: the rotating assemblies to be balanced
[the method is the shop's discretion; normally the crank is balanced neutral, and the rods and pistons are balanced to the same weight. Peripheral items like the flywheel and balancer are balanced individuallly.]

****

John,

I hope that you will have a green manual for the MS to use. The specs in the green manual will assist them in getting the shortblock right.

What I put in parentheses, or added as commentary, is more for your info; not necessarily for the MS. They should know the why's and how's already. Your job is just to make sure they know what you are trying to achieve; and to give them the information that they need to deliver the finished machining to get those results. Which is why I did not list the 'how' to bore the cylinders out. Your MS should know to bore the cylinders out to less than the final size; and then hone out the last few thou. Try to avoid coming across as trying to tell them "how" to do their job. That usually rubs people the wrong way. Just giving them the clearances that you want to have, and supplying supporting data....the green manual...to reach that goal; THAT is your responsibility: to give them the info they need to do the job right.

At the same time, being able to intelligently discuss what you want, and understanding what it is that you want, will help your MS understand your goals and help them to do the job. They may wonder about the [relatively] tight clearances you seek; but if you present your case well, with the green manual as backup, they will see the point, and have a greater respect for your wishes.

The fact that you ARE concerned with piston deck height is something that a MS does not usually run into with a street motor customer. That is an area that is more on the racer side of things concerned with; so your concern and interest in it will be a pleasant surprise for them. They will appreciate your appreciation of that aspect of engine building. A good MS likes a customer that wants to do things right; not just the minimum to get by. A knowledgeable and appreciative customer inspires attention to detail. Having a good working relationship with your machinist pays dividends. Everybody enjoys being appreciated. Not saying that you have to suck up or anything; just that by knowing what you want, and giving them the info they need to do the work right, and presenting your plans well, will help you and them get there. The green manual is a real plus. How many people bring them the specialized info for their motor, in order to help them have the needed specs? You may be the first to do so. They will appreciate the assistance; you will be saving them time having to search for info. BTDT

I would look at the list as a list of talking points for when the MS writes up the job order. I would not just hand them the list and say 'this is what I want'. As the order is written up, use the list to make sure that the desired things are discussed and covered. They might want a copy of the list to put it with the green manual with the job order, for reference.

That should be enough to get the shortblock machined and done right. Assembly is another area for discussion; and we'll get to that.

Thomas Fritz
...the stealth FTi

The Aspirator

11-01-2004, 04:11 PM

Awesome Stealth, I'll write that up and take it to the machine shop this week and discuss it with him. I'll bring my brother along too so he can learn, he came with me when we took the crank in.

Last week I went around to some local shops looking for bearings. And to my suprise NAPA could easily get me Clevite bearings and CarQuest could easily get me FedMoguls. I thought it would be harder than that to find the proper bearings. Also, I asked at both places if these brands supplied the actual outer bearing shell dimensions...... and they looked at me with a puzzled frown. They've never been asked this and have never heard of the question. And these were older people that have worked there for a long time and have been into cars their whole lives. So is this just a super tiny detail that you love to know?

Also, when Erik and I went to our MS he had a program on his computer where he looked up our '83 B21 engine and it said the rod bearing size right there. He busted out his calipers and measure the spun surface and said "010 might do it, but 020 will definately do it". I thought it was really cool how he had the program with those specs in it, I wonder what else the program knows?

John

stealthfti

11-01-2004, 08:50 PM

John,

you might want to ask your MS guy if he has the shell diameter specs for the mains and rods. He might have those specs, or not. My MS guy has the specs in his FederalMogul catalog. That might be a catalog for machine shops, as opposed to a parts catalog for parts store countermen. The point being, why waste paper and ink supplying data to people who would not know what to do with it, or don't use it regularly.

Whether or not other bearing makers publish the outer shell dimensions for the replacement bearings they supply, I do not know. I do know that my MS guy has the specs for the FM bearings he uses in my motors; the dimensions are in the listings. And that is all that I care about: he has the info he needs to do the job right for me. All I have to do is bring along the 3 ring binder with the green manual in it [with the pages in sheet protectors].

Some engine makers supply the outer shell dimensions in their overhaul manuals. I recall seeing the specs for chevy SBs amd BBs in one of my manuals. Dunno about ford or mopars. My MS guy said once that different bearing makers may have a generic/standardized outer shell dimension for a particular application, while others may use a particular dimension, and therefore list that for the MS to use. I don't know all the in's and out's of it; just that if I want the bearings to stay where they are supposed to stay, and have the proper crush to stay in place and have the correct running clearances, then my MS needs to know the outer shell dimensions.

I like Clevites; and use them in my SBCs. For the redblocks, my MS guy has the FedMogul dimensions; so we go with them. Perhaps I could save some $$ by buying the bearings myself and bringing them with; but is not worth it to me if my guy has to guess on the dimensions. The results achieved with running clearances on my motors have always been within two tenths of a thou; I am content with that.

TF

The Aspirator

11-13-2004, 05:39 AM

UPDATE!!

Machining is 90% complete, then we'll get it all balanced, then installed in the car! The machine shop has been GREAT to us, he's a really nice guy and doesn't mind explaining things and showing us how the machines work.

Here is the ESTIMATE that we got just over a week ago, I'm not sure yet if what he did was exactly the same or not. (all prices are in US dollars)

$81.40 - Regrind crankshaft
$60.00 - Hot tank block and check for cracks
$22.00 - R & R intermediate shaft bearings
$15.00 - Replace freeze plugs
($122.40) - Line hone block..... The block checked out perfectly and did not have to be line honed
$61.00 - Cylinder resize (all four cylinders for this price, $15.25 each hole)
$85.00 - Resurface block deck to spec
$71.50 - Clean, Mag, & resize big end of the rods
$31.80 - R & R wrist pin bushings & fit
$20.00 - Clean and mic pistons
_________
$447.70 for the machining work. Not bad at all.

I also had him source the main and rod bearings, they're Fed Moguls. And he'll be getting the piston rings. I got some standard sized intermediate shaft bearings off of eaby for $20 shipped. ($35 at FCP)

He mic'ed all 4 pistons and even though they're used he said they came out very accurate and round.

The crank checked out to be straight and crack free. For the main and rod bearing surfaces, one set was ground to .010, the other to .020, I can't remember which was which.

Rods were resized, they look AWESOME. Pics soon. I did get 8 wrist pin bushings (in the mail right now), but the machininst said that he can't really do much in the way of offset honing them. But we'll see what happens when he gets them.

Block was hot tankted, it too looks AWESOME. Cylinders were bored out to match the 1st OS pistons and maintain exactly .002" piston to cylinder wall clearance. The deck is not yet machined because we're waiting to get the wrist pins in the mail to do a dummy buildup and measure how much needs to be sliced off to get the piston +.012 out of the hole. Goal being .035 squish.

So we're pretty much waiting to recieve the wrist pins and freeze plugs (plus a bunch of other stuff obviously), then we can complete the machining and balance the rotating assembly.

Ohhh and I had a great chat with the machinist about compression ratios. We calculated the dimentions of this new engine and determined that with an untouched 398 head (51.7cc) we would be at about 10.6:1 compression!!! So on monday hopefully Kenny and I can port it out as much as possible, ideally to at least 58cc. 58cc would equal about 9.54, 60cc would be a bit less. We'll see what we can accomplish.

I sourced a high volume melling oil pump for $95! PN 1346144 . Every gasket and seal is getting replaced. New water pump, new 82*thermostat, new rad hoses, new valve absorbers, got 4 oil pump o-rings and will do the "JBweld mod" to the pickup tube, new fuel filter, and some other little things.

I got all the parts I need to convert the existing Megasquirt into Megasquirt 'n Spark.

I still need to do an order from Summit racing. Going to get an oil filter relocation kit and a mechanical 100psi oil pressure gauge.

Our goal is to have the car back on the road for Erik's 18th birthday, December 5th. That gives us about 3 weeks. The machining and balancing should be done within a week, but there's still tons to do after that. We're also converting from his '83 dash to an older GT style dash, so I'll have to figure screw around with wiring that sucker in.

More later!

John

Matt Dupuis

11-13-2004, 11:08 AM

John, if you're getting an oil filter relocation dealie, don't buy the Transdapt (TD) junk, at least not the block adapter. I busted one just threading it on, and all the cheap cast fins broke off when I was trying to remove it. Buy an Earl's 1178 block adapter... the filter housing isn't so critical, but I'd look around for something besides Transdapt.

Also make sure you're using good hose for your oil lines - get 'em made up at a hose shop once you've got the filter located where you like it and get some test hoses built.

The Aspirator

11-13-2004, 05:13 PM

Also make sure you're using good hose for your oil lines - get 'em made up at a hose shop once you've got the filter located where you like it and get some test hoses built.Well then I'll order a Permacool remote adapter. So what's wrong with those rubber hoses that come in the remote filter kits?? Why would they sell it if it's a POS hose? Could I just use the red hose from NAPA that I've been using for my turbo oil feed? It's high temp oil resistant, and has worked great for me.

John

Matt Dupuis

11-13-2004, 06:43 PM

Most of that hose is rated for 50 psi and 200*F. It is oil resistant though. It'll work, but it's not ideal.

The Aspirator

11-13-2004, 09:59 PM

Most of that hose is rated for 50 psi and 200*F. It is oil resistant though. It'll work, but it's not ideal.But will that hose work "good enough"? We're already into this build for over $1,300 US, so from now on every penny counts. What do you suggest then? Can I just get the permacool remote kit, it's about $42 from Jegs...?

John

Matt Dupuis

11-14-2004, 12:58 AM

The only worry is how close the oil filter is to the exhaust manifold. The hose I'm using is better in the pressure department but not in the temperature department. I feel that it's not safe in the Thomas Fritz meaning of the word (sorry, buddy!) but since I'm a cheap bastard and I'm arrogant enough to think that I'll catch a failed hose quicker than Eric would, I'm still running it.

The outer layer of rubber hasn't started showing signs of overheating yet - crumbling rubber, etc. I'm using brass barbs and hose clamps. Edit - again, I'm using better hose: I think mine is rated to 200 psi @ 200 *F, so at higher temperatures it should be better suited to handle the 45-60 psi oil pressure. The stuff you get in the kits is rated to I think 50 psi @ 200 *F.

Do as I say, not as I do, ya know? It's my free advise - and that's all it's worth.

stealthfti

11-14-2004, 03:04 PM

no prob, Matt.

John, just verify the pressure range of the hose supplied in the kit. I would agree with Matt's temperature concerns, but that is what Thermo-Tec tape is for. Putt a few wraps of that heat barrier tape around #1 manifold runner. You'll be pleased with the amount of heat that that keeps away from your oil filter adapter/hoses and alternator. That's not exactly easy to do on the old style manifold, but it can be done.

And, I would suggest that you NOT reinstall that stupid heat shield on the manifold. You will be fine without it. You do not need to try to "retain" the heat in the manifold with that stupid shield. Just some Thermo-Tec tape on #1 runner to keep down the heat radiation towards the oil filter adapter and alternator. If you feel that you just gotta have something there to 'protect' the plug wire boots, then use the 700 style individual shields on #1, 2, and 3. I have reached the point that I won't even use those, though. My approach is to let the heat out, and use good plug wires. I haven't had a boot or wire fry yet.

The reason I dislike that stupid heat shield on the old style manifolds is that I am fairly convinced that that shield contibutes to the spreading problem on the flanges on the old style manifold because that shield just keeps the heat right there, compounding the thermal expansion, and contributing to broken studs.

I am not saying to wrap the whole manifold with heat barrier tape; just some on #1 runner.

good luck with the CC'ing work.

Thomas Fritz
...the stealth FTi

The Aspirator

11-14-2004, 05:19 PM

Yeah I hate heat shields too, so don't worry. Actually when Erik first got this car 1.5yrs ago that's the first thing I removed. That's a good idea to wrap the #1 runner, we might just try that. So how would we wrap the pre-90 manifold with its square design? How does the wrap stay in place?

Currently the plug wires are just some POS brand, they're old. Soon we'll get the nice MSD 8.5mm ones that Ian Rankin makes, I've got these and I love them! Actually maybe we should get these real soon, cause the ones Erik has really really really suck. I'll think about it.

What about engine assembly procedures? Do I lube up the rings before sliding them into the cylinders or not? Do I hand polish the bearings with steel wool or not? Stuff like that.

Thanks!

John

stealthfti

11-14-2004, 09:53 PM

John,

You overlap the wrap, and use a couple of SS radiator hose clamps; may not be beautiful, but works fine. Or, you can but the strapping kit that Thermo-Tec sells, and make up the pretty little clamps.

You do NOT polish, sand, abrade, or scotch brite the bearing surfaces. The old saw about polishing them with steel wool became obsolete before I started in the trade; it is a myth carried over from the babbit bearing days. All you do is clean them with some carb spray and a lint-free rag; and install them into their [clean and dry] journals dry. Any lube applied is to be applied only to the contact surface that faces the crankshaft. There must be no lube behind the bearing shells.

And when you check the bearing clearances with plasti-gage, it is done dry. After all five main bearings have been plasti-gaged, then you lube the bearing surfaces before you lay in the crank for the final time. And, of course, the intermediate shaft is installed before the crank is laid in.

Rings have to be gapped; and the gaps have to be spaced around the piston correctly. The green manual shows Volvo's ring gap clocking. I prefer to clock my ring gaps like a SBC. Nothing wrong with the Volvo clocking chart; just that I have my own preferences on that, and use the SBC clocking.

Ring gap is VERY important. The top ring should be gapped to the wide side of specs; I go to the max gap on top rings. The second ring should be in the middle of gap specs. Th oil ring in the middle as well. I will take ten thou too much ring gap over one thou too little ring gap any day. The top ring sees the most heat; give it the extra clearance in the end gap so that it cannot butt and seize. And that is especially true in a boost motor.

You can file the rings to adjust the gap, or you can "stone" the ring ends to adjust the gap. I use files at first; and finish with stones. And there are ring gapping tools that you can buy that hold the ring while you file or stone the ends. Getting the gaps right is very important....both the actual gap; and the finish of the end surface: no burrs allowed. There are how-to articles out there on ring gapping procedures and methods.

The piston/rod assemblies [with the rings installed] are lubed before being clamped in the ring compressor. Lots of people use just motor oil; I use a combo of motor oil and assembly lube. I like assembly lube that has molybdenum in it. Moly is a good extreme pressure resistor. And, I lube the cylinder wall before the piston is installed as well.

Once the pistons are clamped into the ring compressor [and with the ring gaps clocked correctly], the piston is set on the block deck and carefully pressed [or tapped with a wooden mallet] down into the cylinder. There are articles with pictures etc showing how it is done. I use a hammer handle to tap on the piston.....gently, carefully, patiently. Installing the pistons is a critical operation. Do it wrong, and you can break a ring....not good.

There are basically two types of ring compressor:
...the universal band type that fits many sizes.....like from 2.5in to 6in pistons;
...or the slotted sleeve type of compressor that is sized for a particular diameter piston, and has a pair of locking pliers to close the sleeve once the piston is inside.

I use the band clamp style. Maybe some day, I will treat myself and buy a set of the sleeve types. They are nice; and easier to use....and considerably more expensive than the band type compressor.

Whichever you have, the key is to be careful. Cracked or broken rings is not what you want. And if you are not sure if everything is okay once you do get the piston in the cylinder, do not be afraid to remove the piston and check things out and redo it.

TF

Captain Bondo

11-14-2004, 11:05 PM

In advance- sorry if my sporadic internet access=out of the loop and scattered replies. ;)

Definitely agree on the moly/motor oil combo on assembly. If you need a decent band clamp ring compressor I have one I can get it for ya tomorrow assuming I can find it lol.

I know a good trick w/ mechanic's wire for holding thermotec on but it's hard to explain, but basically it's overlapped tape as stealth says, you put one peice around the halfway overlapped end of the tap and tww pieces at the other end so that each "corner" of the tape is held. Twisted tight then clipped.

slightly ot thoughts on thermotec on a late manifold stealth? My thought was to do the whole thing but was wondering about cracking... seems like the late manifold should be more resistant to flange seperation and etc? at leat runner 1 as well as the downpipe will definitely be done on my carwhen everything goes in the end of the month.

things to consider:
As an aside John, a late manifold would really be a good bang for the buck thing if you can find one.
You can usually get semi-cracked (ie normal :lol:) ones for 50 bucks or so if you post a wanted post.

also regarding filter relocation- what about the setup from a later b230ft?
In fact the water cooled oil cooler would be neat on an early engine. I don't know what this sort of stuff goes for but it might be an option.

The Aspirator

11-15-2004, 12:36 AM

Stealth, thanks for the tips on ring gapping. I didn't know what it was or how to do it before, but now I have a good idea. I'll definately read up on it, and ask my machine shop.The piston/rod assemblies [with the rings installed] are lubed before being clamped in the ring compressor. Lots of people use just motor oil; I use a combo of motor oil and assembly lube. I like assembly lube that has molybdenum in it. Moly is a good extreme pressure resistor. And, I lube the cylinder wall before the piston is installed as well.
Good to know. The reason I asked those questions above was because I had heard conflicting stories. The first machine shop I went to (NOT my current guy), I chatted with him for a while and he said
"the trick is to take some scotchbrite bads to these here rod and main bearings, and make them nice and smooth"
"And most people will tell you to lube up the piston rings and cylinder walls, but I don't, you're not supposed to. You want the ring to seat as quickly as possible once the engine is started"

That's what he told me. He seemed to be an experienced guy who owned that shop, but he was kinda weird. Hence why I chose not to go with him. His theory's are complete opposites of what you told me above Stealth, so I'm gladly going to go with your method. Good thing I asked! I'll also talk to my machine shop about it and see what he suggests.

I'm going back this week to help him do the finishing touches. The wrist pin bushings and freeze plugs still haven't come yet, but they should be here on monday or tuesday.

Ken, it would be awesome if I could borrow that ring compressor for a week or two!

Yes, a 90+ manifold would be a great performance upgrade. But right now, spending money on added performance isn't the first thing on our minds. Besides, it'll take what, 1,500 miles to properly break in the motor before we can start beating on it? In that time we'll save up and buy a few "go fast goodies" like the manifold, MSD wires and coil, NPR intercooler, etc. There's no immediate rush on these upgrades. Besides, we need something to do later on! And if (when) I build a custom exhaust manifold for my car Erik can have my 90+ mani.

John

Matt Dupuis

11-15-2004, 12:50 AM

slightly ot thoughts on thermotec on a late manifold stealth? My thought was to do the whole thing but was wondering about cracking... seems like the late manifold should be more resistant to flange seperation and etc?
Seems to me the late manifold should be worse in this area. I'm partly convinced that the bridged flanges caused at least some of the cracking in the later design from keeping the flanges from spreading with the manifold. The "collector" area of the manifold must be 1200F+ and wants to expand like mad, while the bridge between the flanges is only a couple hundred degrees, limiting the growth in that area. I haven't brought myself to cutting the bridges out of my 90+, but :e-shrug:

Captain Bondo

11-15-2004, 01:02 AM

Really hard to say because the early manifolds crack in such a spectacular fashion at the top of the #1 or #4 runner just before it meets the collector- like some huge friggin guy grabbed the runner at the head flange and half tore it off. At that point it's sayonara to the manifold time- whereas the late manifolds crack in the collector but in a less terminal sort of way- I would be worried the late mani's would crack in the more terminal fashion of the earlies if the flange connectors were removed.

We'll just have to break down and experiment with it all as time allows.

Matt Dupuis

11-15-2004, 01:13 AM

Almost every one of my early manifolds that have cracked, have cracked in similar positions between #2 & #3. I'd put this down to overtorquing, which I've done myself, keeping the manifold constrained from heat expansion. The later manifolds are so thin in the collector area that it probably flexes/cracks there rather than having even larger forces concentrated on one runner. Ideally, the flanges of #1 and #4 runners should be allowed to float, with as little torque on the bolts as necessary for good seal. #2 and #3 (or ideally, just one of these) could/should be torqued right down to actually hold the manifold in place.

I'm agreed, however, that the later ones are less termnial than having a manifold that resembles a scared sand crab.

Morley

11-15-2004, 05:36 AM

The Aspirator

11-20-2004, 04:00 AM

Engine's done in the machine shop :twisted: , now we've just gotta pay the guy then go get the rotating assembly balanced at my buddy's shop.

Pictures eventually, I promise. I'll also post the reciept from the machine shop to "let the record know" exactly what was done to this engine and how much it cost.

Also, I did get a 405 head that we'll be using, but wasn't there talk about this being a bad idea on a B21 because it's slightly wider than the bore??? You guys were suggesting the 405 as a good idea earlier in this thread. And using my new digital calipers I measured the stock combustion chambers between a 398 and a 405 and the ONLY difference I could find was a .5mm wider (the long way) combustion chamber in the 405. Everything else looked and measured identical. Yet the article by Mike Aaro states a 1.5mm difference. I measured a few times just to be sure and got the same thing every time. Hrm....

John

adrianpike

11-20-2004, 04:16 AM

Also, I did get a 405 head that we'll be using, but wasn't there talk about this being a bad idea on a B21 because it's slightly wider than the bore??? You guys were suggesting the 405 as a good idea earlier in this thread. And using my new digital calipers I measured the stock combustion chambers between a 398 and a 405 and the ONLY difference I could find was a .5mm wider (the long way) combustion chamber in the 405. Everything else looked and measured identical. Yet the article by Mike Aaro states a 1.5mm difference. I measured a few times just to be sure and got the same thing every time. Hrm....
Perhaps Mike is talking about 1.5mm of area, not diameter? I thought about this a little bit since Thursday as well, and yes, it would be a bad thing for a boosted engine to have the combustion chamber wider than the bore. The sharp edges of the bore would heat up, and promote detonation. Jordan probably never had to worry that much about detonation on Bluey, so this wasn't a huge problem, I'll bet. This is, of course, assuming the 405 combustion chamber is actually larger than the b21 bore.

Sweet sounding progress, BTW... Can't wait to see the beast.

The Aspirator

11-20-2004, 05:23 AM

If this helps:
92mm piston+531 here.
mikep:
530 head on a B21 bore (remember the 405 head is supposed to be 1.5mm wider, though I only measured .5mm)
http://www.pbase.com/image/18288707.jpg (http://www.pbase.com/image/18288707.jpg)

John

Canuckvolvo

11-20-2004, 12:26 PM

If this helps:

mikep:
530 head on a B21 bore (remember the 405 head is supposed to be 1.5mm wider, though I only measured .5mm)
http://www.pbase.com/image/18288707.jpg (http://www.pbase.com/image/18288707.jpg)

John
That is a cool shot! Here is one of my own. Hard to scale the 2 pics since I think they were taken at *slightly* different angles, but It gives you an idea. IIRC, there is very little difference between the overall dims of the chambers. I think the pics clearly show where the 2cc's is made up, around the exhaust valve. Interesting to note the different valves. On the right is stock, and left are the replacement ones my shop sourced. There might be another couple of cc's there!
http://www3.telus.net/athal/chamber compare.JPG

stealthfti

11-20-2004, 01:02 PM

John,

sounds good.

re using a 405 head on a B21: the CC is 'longer' on the 405 or 531. Those heads had the larger volume CCs. I would suggest that you verify that the B21 head gasket will not be exposed because of the longer CCs. It should be okay, but make sure. Worst case scenario would be that you would have to go with a B23 HG, in order to keep the fire ring back under the aluminum. It is one thing for the fire ring to be almost, or just flush with the edge of the head material; an entirely different matter if the fire ring is extending out beyond the edge of the head. That situation would be just about perfect for the creation of a nice little glowing hot spot: pre-ignition, anyone? Or, just as bad: a blown HG due to the fire ring NOT being supported properly by being clamped and squeezed between the head and block.

Whether or not using a 405 head on a B21 is 'good' or 'bad' is mostly a matter of preference and conjecture. Without performing extensive dyno or flow bench testing to determine if the smaller bore's edge sticking out into the flow past the intake valve actually harms the flow, it is merely conjecture. Preferring to have as much aluminum between the cylinders as possible [by starting with a smaller CC cylinder head, and proceeding from there] is just that: a preference.

I prefer to have the maximum amount of aluminum between the bores: to hold the HG in place; and to contribute to the squish area around the ring lands [if possible]. The BCP heads do not have an excess of material behind the combustion areas [in the casting cross-section] to maintain rigidity. But that is just my way of looking at it.

Do it however you want to; your choice. Just make sure that you are not creating a problem for yourself by having exposed fire rings, or insufficiently supported fire rings.

Thomas Fritz
...the stealth FTi

The Aspirator

11-20-2004, 04:57 PM

Here is one of my own. Hard to scale the 2 pics since I think they were taken at *slightly* different angles, but It gives you an idea. IIRC, there is very little difference between the overall dims of the chambers. I think the pics clearly show where the 2cc's is made up, around the exhaust valve. Interesting to note the different valves. On the right is stock, and left are the replacement ones my shop sourced. There might be another couple of cc's there!
http://www3.telus.net/athal/chamber%20compare.JPGAWESOME picture! Yeah that really helps me clear things up. So if the 405 has less material in this area, it should be alright for me to take out even more eh?

Stealth, B21 Elring headgasket is 95mm diameter, measured by mikep in a previous thread. But I'll be SURE to lay a B21 HG over the 405 just to see.

Gotta go,
John

stealthfti

11-21-2004, 02:24 AM

How do you guys plan on mounting the rings on the pistons? When I assembled my engine I put them with 180 degrees between the gaps, meaning the top ring and the oil ring had the gaps at the same position, -and after I had assembled the engine and started it, I learned that it should be 120 degrees between the gaps of the rings...

Do you think this really matters? It has run fine for two years now...runnning 1.5 bars of boost.

Morley, I figured that I should answer your question directly, since I doubt that chevy motor manuals are common in your neck of the woods.

yes, the volvo ring gap clocking is 120 degrees apart. Chevy small blocks are the 180 degrees apart: with the top ring and oil ring gaps both on the non thrust side [perpendicular to the crank centerline]. You did yours similarly, but did not specify where you located the gaps. I use the SBC gap clocking because I like the 180 degrees of separation between the top and second rings.

I hope that answers your question. Yours should be quite okay.

Thomas Fritz
...the stealth FTi

Morley

11-21-2004, 05:05 AM

Morley, I figured that I should answer your question directly, since I doubt that chevy motor manuals are common in your neck of the woods.

yes, the volvo ring gap clocking is 120 degrees apart. Chevy small blocks are the 180 degrees apart: with the top ring and oil ring gaps both on the non thrust side [perpendicular to the crank centerline]. You did yours similarly, but did not specify where you located the gaps. I use the SBC gap clocking because I like the 180 degrees of separation between the top and second rings.

I hope that answers your question. Yours should be quite okay.

Thomas Fritz
...the stealth FTi

Thank you, that made me a little less worried :-D

I don't know know where I located the gaps, I guess they got inserted at random. They are 180 degrees apart though.

Brickster151

11-21-2004, 02:11 PM

Sweet! This thread is really helpful- right now I am trying to get my 244 back up and running in good order for around $1500 [I've already got most of the stuff for MSnS]. But I will be doing a couple things different.

I've got a B23F with low miles and a 398 SCP cylinder head. To keep the price low I will be doing all the work myself except installing the valve guides and resurfacing the mating surface of both the head and the block.

My plans are

-Rebulding+Porting/Polishing the head
-Copper Headgasket, will figure out a thickness for it eventually, I'll be using it to lower the CR to around or above 9:1
-Ported and polished 90+ exhaust Manifold
-60/63 T3 off a 2.3t Ford, ported inlet on exhaust side
-Mandrel Bent 3'' DP
-Custom airbox/intake setup
-Port matched intake manifold
-Bored out TB, knife edged plate
-MSnS [will start off without the spark part]
-Browntops
-Innovate WBo2
-Diesel Motor Mounts
-New clutch

Can't wait to finish it up, cause I'd pause on the 244 for a bit once it's finished and do couple upgrades to the R!

Thanks to everyone who contributed in this thread, like I said it helps alot! :-D

The Aspirator

11-21-2004, 06:06 PM

Sounds like a good plan Patrick, but don't forget that a way thicker headgasket can kill squish if not done properly. I think the easiest way to lower CR while using the stock pistons is to open up the combustion chamber in the head, like we're doing for Erik's car. Still we'll end up with around 9.5:1 CR, which is higher than I had hoped for, but ohh well. With tight squish it'll be less prone to detonation, and a worked combustion chamber will be less prone to hot spots, so we should be alright.

John

142Turbo

11-22-2004, 06:50 AM

You want the second ring gap to be bigger than on the top compression ring.

So dont make it to small on the second ring. Very important.

Sorry for the bad english

/Andreas

The Aspirator

12-04-2004, 05:53 AM

Got the entire rotating assembly fully balanced, that was fun to do! It's gonna be smooooooth. I'll post more details about this later with some pics.

But for now I wanna talk about compression.
http://not2fast.wryday.com/turbo/compression/compression.shtml (http://not2fast.wryday.com/turbo/compression/compression.shtml)

This is the calculator I've been using, works awesome. Below is a screenshot of all the specs of this B21ft we're buidling. Some measurements I had in inches and some in mm's, so that conversion button at the top is really really handy! I measured the compression height of the pistons myself with my new digital calipers, and guesstimated the top ring height (though it doesn't seem to affect compression ratio). For the deck height you want to make sure you put negative .012", because the piston sticks up out of the hole, so the deck is actually -.012" below the piston. If you put +.012" you'll end up about half a point low and think you're fine!!!

http://www.j2mediagroup.com/john/Erik-b21ft10.jpg

The thing to change in order to lower the compression ratio is the Head Chamber Volume. Port it out! I've already bumped up each chamber to roughly 55cc which brings the CR down to 9.76:1. With my engine combination:
53.7cc = 9.95 CR (stock unported 405 head.... yes I'm using the 405!)
55cc = 9.76 CR
56cc = 9.62 CR
57cc = 9.48 CR
58cc = 9.35 CR
59cc = 9.22 CR
60cc = 9.10 CR

So what do y'all think I should aim for? I mean I am basically able to control what compression ratio I want right now. I'm thinking that 9.2:1 - 9.3:1 would rock the hizzouse. Not too high, not too low.

John

Captain Bondo

12-04-2004, 06:00 AM

I would say basically shoot for as much volume as you can via unshrouding without removing too much squish area opposite the sparkplug. getting towards the low 9's would be real nice for sure. Nice thing about tightening up the squish clearance is that even with some lost squish area you should still have real good turbulence.

Canuckvolvo

12-04-2004, 02:17 PM

I'd agree with Cappy- don't mind the number so much. You've got good squish clearance, just make sure theres adequate quench pads. I ported out a 398 head to about 58cc's and was pretty comfortable with it, although it hasn't been installed. I had drawn my piston lands on the head so I knew were the quench areas were. Since you're using flat tops that's not an issue.
There's a cc or two available from the roof of the chambers...

The Aspirator

12-04-2004, 04:18 PM

There's a cc or two available from the roof of the chambers... Already found it! I ground down the roof of the chamber slightly, on every cylinder. I think it upped the CC to almost 55. I haven't even started on the walls yet. I'm thinking that I'll grind down the hump right next to the spark plug, and use that picture that you (canuck) posted above as a guideline for more CC's. That should pretty easily get me to 58cc, might even go a bit higher.

Squish is .035".

Thanks guys!! I'm going down to Lynden right now to do more work on the car. Might start getting the engine assembled today.

John

The Aspirator

12-10-2004, 01:10 AM

JBweld the freeze plugs in or no?

IPD Hi pressure relief spring for our new melling oil pump? Or no? We got the higher output pump.

Yay we just got a pile of parts in the mail today. Full gasket and seal kit, new oil pump, water pump, etc etc. Now all we have to do is place an order from Summit for an oil filter relocation kit, mechanical oil pressure gauge, 3" high flow cat ($48) and a 180* Ubend for the downpipe.
Now for some long awaited pics! :volvo:

http://www.j2mediagroup.com/john/erik-b21ft01.jpg

http://www.j2mediagroup.com/john/Erik-b21ft02.jpg

http://www.j2mediagroup.com/john/Erik-b21ft06.jpg

http://www.j2mediagroup.com/john/Erik-b21ft07.jpg

http://www.j2mediagroup.com/john/Erik-b21ft08.jpg

http://www.j2mediagroup.com/john/Erik-b21ft09.jpg

I've got more, but no time to post them right now.

Later! John

Super1800GTR

12-10-2004, 01:16 AM

What filter relocation kit are you going to use? I'm getting the block adapter from John Parker (super nice quality) but need the parts & oil cooler (this is for the b20).

Looks like you should have that thing running soon!!! Nice

Rob

Hank Scorpio

12-10-2004, 01:18 AM

John,

Now that you have the motor back, go to a sporting goods store. Get a rifle rod cleaning set (cheapie is fine). Get a couple cans of WD40 and some dishwashing/hand soap.

Roll the block outside. Start scrubbing down the outside of the motor with soap and spongues. Use the rifle rods w/ the wire brush in all the water jackets and oil galleries. The cleaner you make the motor now the better it will be in the long run. (btw, alot of time the residue from hot tank paint will not stick to the block).

WD40 that motor like crazy while you clean it, you should be WD40'ing it now. Once the outside is clean, paint it ASAP. Make sure those cylinder walls get a good hosing of the WD.

JB weld those plugs in (make sure you run a good mix of Antifreeze).

Use the ford thread based remote adapter, you dont have to get the universal.

Looks good bud!

The Aspirator

12-10-2004, 02:43 AM

THANKS DOUG!!! Now that's the kind of advice you don't read every day! I've never heard a single mention of WD40. I think only Stealth has mentioned wire brushes to clean the galleys, and rifle brushes sound like the perfect solution. Now what's the purpose of the WD40? To prevent it from surface rusting? Will paint stick to the WD40 residue, and if not will plain soap and water get it off? Or is Brake Kleen in order?

I think the machinist sprayed the outside of the block with some kind of cast paint, hard to tell. But I think I scratched one of the freeze plugs and a thin layer of paint came off..... :e-shrug:

Shortblock and pan is goin gloss black. My brother finally decided on a color, it was between redblock red, hot pink, and black. Couldn't find pink engine paint, though we were tempted to e-mail "Pimp My Ride", they're bound to have some... So black won :-P .

For the remote filter adapter, I'm thinking the summit single filter universal kit. For $34 you really can't beat it. If I bought both the block adapter and the filter adapter I'm at almost $30 already, and the kit comes with the hose and fittings and clamps and everything. Sounds like a clear winner.

The sucky thing is that I live an hour away from my brother, and can only make it down there like once a week to help him work on it. And he doesn't feel experienced enough to do alot of work on his own, so it's taking a while to get things done. I'm heading down again for saturday and sunday, so I hope to do the block cleaning like doug suggested, then assemble the rotating assembly into the block. Start putting the seals in, basically get the oil pan on and buttoned up. I still have to finish enlarging the cylinder head chambers, and have a ton of beadblasting and painting to do. Also gotta get the head checked for straightness and surface if needed.

After that it's just a matter of assembling everything and tossing it into the car. We're also converting to the older GT style dash and gauge cluster, and the wiring seems to plug right in but we'll see if everything lights up properly. The car is already running on Megasquirt so I'm adding the "nSpark" bit. I'm having a ton of fun on this buildup, though it's very annoying that I can't spend much time down there to work on it.....

Hank Scorpio

12-10-2004, 03:38 AM

cast iron when exposed to atmosphere w/out any wd40/protective coating will beging to rust instantly. You dont want to WD40 anything you want to paint (IF your ready to paint it) so after you scrub the motor down just SOAK the "internals" with WD and quickly paint the block. Duct tape over the deck to keep overspray off of the cylinder walls.

Good luck!

Doug

The Aspirator

12-10-2004, 04:09 AM

Here's the list of basically everything that we've spent money on:
(prices in US dollars)

<TABLE style="WIDTH: 588pt; BORDER-COLLAPSE: collapse" cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width=784 border=0 x:str><COLGROUP><COL style="WIDTH: 64pt; mso-width-source: userset; mso-width-alt: 3108" width=85><COL style="WIDTH: 48pt" width=64><COL style="WIDTH: 476pt; mso-width-source: userset; mso-width-alt: 23222" width=635><TBODY><TR style="HEIGHT: 13.5pt; mso-height-source: userset" height=18><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ffffff; BORDER-TOP: #ffffff; BORDER-LEFT: #ffffff; WIDTH: 64pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ffffff; HEIGHT: 13.5pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" width=85 height=18></TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ffffff; BORDER-TOP: #ffffff; BORDER-LEFT: #ffffff; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ffffff; BACKGROUND-COLOR: silver" width=64></TD><TD class=xl27 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ffffff; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; WIDTH: 476pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ffffff; BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ccffff" width=635>Machining work completed</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 13.5pt; mso-height-source: userset" height=18><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ffffff; BORDER-TOP: #ffffff; BORDER-LEFT: #ffffff; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ffffff; HEIGHT: 13.5pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=18></TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ffffff; BORDER-TOP: #ffffff; BORDER-LEFT: #ffffff; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ffffff; BACKGROUND-COLOR: silver" align=right x:num="81.4">$81.40 </TD><TD class=xl28 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ffffff; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ffffff; BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ccffff">Regrind crankshaft</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 13.5pt; mso-height-source: userset" height=18><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ffffff; BORDER-TOP: #ffffff; BORDER-LEFT: #ffffff; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ffffff; HEIGHT: 13.5pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=18></TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ffffff; BORDER-TOP: #ffffff; BORDER-LEFT: #ffffff; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ffffff; BACKGROUND-COLOR: silver" align=right x:num="60">$60.00 </TD><TD class=xl28 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ffffff; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ffffff; BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ccffff">Hot tank block, & check for cracks</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 13.5pt; mso-height-source: userset" height=18><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ffffff; BORDER-TOP: #ffffff; BORDER-LEFT: #ffffff; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ffffff; HEIGHT: 13.5pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=18></TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ffffff; BORDER-TOP: #ffffff; BORDER-LEFT: #ffffff; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ffffff; BACKGROUND-COLOR: silver" align=right x:num="22">$22.00 </TD><TD class=xl28 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ffffff; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ffffff; BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ccffff">remove and replace intermediate shaft bearings</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 13.5pt; mso-height-source: userset" height=18><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ffffff; BORDER-TOP: #ffffff; BORDER-LEFT: #ffffff; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ffffff; HEIGHT: 13.5pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=18></TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ffffff; BORDER-TOP: #ffffff; BORDER-LEFT: #ffffff; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ffffff; BACKGROUND-COLOR: silver" align=right x:num="15">$15.00 </TD><TD class=xl28 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ffffff; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ffffff; BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ccffff">replace freeze plugs</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 13.5pt; mso-height-source: userset" height=18><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ffffff; BORDER-TOP: #ffffff; BORDER-LEFT: #ffffff; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ffffff; HEIGHT: 13.5pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=18></TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ffffff; BORDER-TOP: #ffffff; BORDER-LEFT: #ffffff; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ffffff; BACKGROUND-COLOR: silver" align=right x:num="93.01">$93.01 </TD><TD class=xl28 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ffffff; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ffffff; BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ccffff">2C5692-020 Rings (Hastings brand for a 1st oversize B21 bore)</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 13.5pt; mso-height-source: userset" height=18><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ffffff; BORDER-TOP: #ffffff; BORDER-LEFT: #ffffff; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ffffff; HEIGHT: 13.5pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=18></TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ffffff; BORDER-TOP: #ffffff; BORDER-LEFT: #ffffff; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ffffff; BACKGROUND-COLOR: silver" align=right x:num="61">$61.00 </TD><TD class=xl28 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ffffff; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ffffff; BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ccffff">Cylinder resize (all 4 cylinders)</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 13.5pt; mso-height-source: userset" height=18><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ffffff; BORDER-TOP: #ffffff; BORDER-LEFT: #ffffff; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ffffff; HEIGHT: 13.5pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=18></TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ffffff; BORDER-TOP: #ffffff; BORDER-LEFT: #ffffff; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ffffff; BACKGROUND-COLOR: silver" align=right x:num="85">$85.00 </TD><TD class=xl28 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ffffff; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ffffff; BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ccffff">resurface block to spec (to achieve piston out of the hole .012")</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 13.5pt; mso-height-source: userset" height=18><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ffffff; BORDER-TOP: #ffffff; BORDER-LEFT: #ffffff; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ffffff; HEIGHT: 13.5pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=18></TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ffffff; BORDER-TOP: #ffffff; BORDER-LEFT: #ffffff; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ffffff; BACKGROUND-COLOR: silver" align=right x:num="71.5">$71.50 </TD><TD class=xl28 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ffffff; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ffffff; BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ccffff">clean, mag, & resize rod big ends (all 4 rods)</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 13.5pt; mso-height-source: userset" height=18><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ffffff; BORDER-TOP: #ffffff; BORDER-LEFT: #ffffff; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ffffff; HEIGHT: 13.5pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=18></TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ffffff; BORDER-TOP: #ffffff; BORDER-LEFT: #ffffff; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ffffff; BACKGROUND-COLOR: silver" align=right x:num="31.8">$31.80 </TD><TD class=xl28 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ffffff; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ffffff; BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ccffff">remove and replace wrist pin bushings, & hone to fit (all 4 rods)</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 13.5pt; mso-height-source: userset" height=18><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ffffff; BORDER-TOP: #ffffff; BORDER-LEFT: #ffffff; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ffffff; HEIGHT: 13.5pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=18></TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ffffff; BORDER-TOP: #ffffff; BORDER-LEFT: #ffffff; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ffffff; BACKGROUND-COLOR: silver" align=right x:num="20">$20.00 </TD><TD class=xl28 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ffffff; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ffffff; BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ccffff">Clean and mic pistons (all 4, each was exactly 3.6395" / 92.4433mm)</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 13.5pt; mso-height-source: userset" height=18><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ffffff; BORDER-TOP: #ffffff; BORDER-LEFT: #ffffff; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ffffff; HEIGHT: 13.5pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=18></TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ffffff; BORDER-TOP: #ffffff; BORDER-LEFT: #ffffff; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ffffff; BACKGROUND-COLOR: silver" align=right x:num="83.51">$83.51 </TD><TD class=xl28 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ffffff; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ffffff; BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ccffff">6111M - 010 main beargins (Fed Moguls)</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 13.5pt; mso-height-source: userset" height=18><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ffffff; BORDER-TOP: #ffffff; BORDER-LEFT: #ffffff; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ffffff; HEIGHT: 13.5pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=18></TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ffffff; BORDER-TOP: #ffffff; BORDER-LEFT: #ffffff; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ffffff; BACKGROUND-COLOR: silver" align=right x:num="27.2">$27.20 </TD><TD class=xl28 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ffffff; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ffffff; BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ccffff">4-66620CP -- 010 rod bearings (Fed Moguls)</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 13.5pt; mso-height-source: userset" height=18><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ffffff; BORDER-TOP: #ffffff; BORDER-LEFT: #ffffff; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ffffff; HEIGHT: 13.5pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=18></TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ffffff; BORDER-TOP: #ffffff; BORDER-LEFT: #ffffff; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ffffff; BACKGROUND-COLOR: silver" align=right x:num="53.42">$53.42 </TD><TD class=xl28 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ffffff; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ffffff; BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ccffff">8.2% tax</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 13.5pt; mso-height-source: userset" height=18><TD class=xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; HEIGHT: 13.5pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: yellow" align=right height=18 x:num="704.84" x:fmla="=SUM(B2:B15)">$704.84</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ffffff; BORDER-TOP: #ffffff; BORDER-LEFT: #ffffff; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ffffff; BACKGROUND-COLOR: silver"></TD><TD class=xl28 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ffffff; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ffffff; BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ccffff"></TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 13.5pt; mso-height-source: userset" height=18><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ffffff; BORDER-TOP: #ffffff; BORDER-LEFT: #ffffff; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ffffff; HEIGHT: 13.5pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=18></TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ffffff; BORDER-TOP: #ffffff; BORDER-LEFT: #ffffff; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ffffff; BACKGROUND-COLOR: silver"></TD><TD class=xl27 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ffffff; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ffffff; BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ccffff">Headwork</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 13.5pt; mso-height-source: userset" height=18><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ffffff; BORDER-TOP: #ffffff; BORDER-LEFT: #ffffff; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ffffff; HEIGHT: 13.5pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=18></TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ffffff; BORDER-TOP: #ffffff; BORDER-LEFT: #ffffff; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ffffff; BACKGROUND-COLOR: silver" align=right x:num="150">FREE
$150.00
</TD><TD class=xl28 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ffffff; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ffffff; BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ccffff">chamber port and polish, did it myself
Decked head, 3 angle valve job ($15/hole) and installing new valve guides ($3.50/hole)
</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 13.5pt; mso-height-source: userset" height=18><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ffffff; BORDER-TOP: #ffffff; BORDER-LEFT: #ffffff; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ffffff; HEIGHT: 13.5pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=18></TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ffffff; BORDER-TOP: #ffffff; BORDER-LEFT: #ffffff; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ffffff; BACKGROUND-COLOR: silver" align=right x:num="35"></TD><TD class=xl28 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ffffff; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ffffff; BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ccffff" x:str="Deck the head "></TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 13.5pt; mso-height-source: userset" height=18><TD class=xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; HEIGHT: 13.5pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: yellow" align=right height=18 x:num="185" x:fmla="=SUM(B17:B19)">$150.00</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ffffff; BORDER-TOP: #ffffff; BORDER-LEFT: #ffffff; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ffffff; BACKGROUND-COLOR: silver"></TD><TD class=xl28 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ffffff; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ffffff; BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ccffff"></TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 13.5pt; mso-height-source: userset" height=18><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ffffff; BORDER-TOP: #ffffff; BORDER-LEFT: #ffffff; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ffffff; HEIGHT: 13.5pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=18>thelostartof</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ffffff; BORDER-TOP: #ffffff; BORDER-LEFT: #ffffff; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ffffff; BACKGROUND-COLOR: silver" align=right x:num="95">$95.00 </TD><TD class=xl28 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ffffff; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ffffff; BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ccffff">New oil pump</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 13.5pt; mso-height-source: userset" height=18><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ffffff; BORDER-TOP: #ffffff; BORDER-LEFT: #ffffff; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ffffff; HEIGHT: 13.5pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=18>thelostartof</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ffffff; BORDER-TOP: #ffffff; BORDER-LEFT: #ffffff; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ffffff; BACKGROUND-COLOR: silver" align=right x:num="35">$35.00 </TD><TD class=xl28 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ffffff; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ffffff; BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ccffff">Upper gasket set</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 13.5pt; mso-height-source: userset" height=18><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ffffff; BORDER-TOP: #ffffff; BORDER-LEFT: #ffffff; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ffffff; HEIGHT: 13.5pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=18>thelostartof</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ffffff; BORDER-TOP: #ffffff; BORDER-LEFT: #ffffff; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ffffff; BACKGROUND-COLOR: silver" align=right x:num="40">$40.00 </TD><TD class=xl28 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ffffff; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ffffff; BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ccffff">Lower gasket set</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 13.5pt; mso-height-source: userset" height=18><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ffffff; BORDER-TOP: #ffffff; BORDER-LEFT: #ffffff; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ffffff; HEIGHT: 13.5pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=18>thelostartof</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ffffff; BORDER-TOP: #ffffff; BORDER-LEFT: #ffffff; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ffffff; BACKGROUND-COLOR: silver" align=right x:num="12">$12.00 </TD><TD class=xl28 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ffffff; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ffffff; BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ccffff">upper and lower radiator hoses ($14 FCP)</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 13.5pt; mso-height-source: userset" height=18><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ffffff; BORDER-TOP: #ffffff; BORDER-LEFT: #ffffff; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ffffff; HEIGHT: 13.5pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=18>thelostartof</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ffffff; BORDER-TOP: #ffffff; BORDER-LEFT: #ffffff; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ffffff; BACKGROUND-COLOR: silver" align=right x:num="34.4">$34.40 </TD><TD class=xl28 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ffffff; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ffffff; BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ccffff">8 new valve guides and 4 new intake stem seals</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 13.5pt; mso-height-source: userset" height=18><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ffffff; BORDER-TOP: #ffffff; BORDER-LEFT: #ffffff; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ffffff; HEIGHT: 13.5pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=18>thelostartof</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ffffff; BORDER-TOP: #ffffff; BORDER-LEFT: #ffffff; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ffffff; BACKGROUND-COLOR: silver" align=right x:num="29.19">$29.19 </TD><TD class=xl28 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ffffff; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ffffff; BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ccffff">tax and shipping from thelostartof</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 13.5pt; mso-height-source: userset" height=18><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ffffff; BORDER-TOP: #ffffff; BORDER-LEFT: #ffffff; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ffffff; HEIGHT: 13.5pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=18>FCP</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ffffff; BORDER-TOP: #ffffff; BORDER-LEFT: #ffffff; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ffffff; BACKGROUND-COLOR: silver" align=right x:num="7.5">$7.50 </TD><TD class=xl28 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ffffff; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ffffff; BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ccffff">Freeze plugs -- 4 needed for a B21, I think you need 6 for a B230</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 13.5pt; mso-height-source: userset" height=18><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ffffff; BORDER-TOP: #ffffff; BORDER-LEFT: #ffffff; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ffffff; HEIGHT: 13.5pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=18>ebay</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ffffff; BORDER-TOP: #ffffff; BORDER-LEFT: #ffffff; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ffffff; BACKGROUND-COLOR: silver" align=right x:num="20.99">$20.99 </TD><TD class=xl28 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ffffff; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ffffff; BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ccffff">intermediate shaft bearings ($35 at FCP)</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 13.5pt; mso-height-source: userset" height=18><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ffffff; BORDER-TOP: #ffffff; BORDER-LEFT: #ffffff; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ffffff; HEIGHT: 13.5pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=18>FCP</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ffffff; BORDER-TOP: #ffffff; BORDER-LEFT: #ffffff; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ffffff; BACKGROUND-COLOR: silver" align=right x:num="15">$15.00 </TD><TD class=xl28 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ffffff; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ffffff; BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ccffff">wrist pin bushings (4 needed) $3.75ea</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 13.5pt; mso-height-source: userset" height=18><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ffffff; BORDER-TOP: #ffffff; BORDER-LEFT: #ffffff; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ffffff; HEIGHT: 13.5pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=18>FCP</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ffffff; BORDER-TOP: #ffffff; BORDER-LEFT: #ffffff; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ffffff; BACKGROUND-COLOR: silver" align=right x:num="38">$38.00 </TD><TD class=xl28 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ffffff; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ffffff; BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ccffff">Water pump</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 13.5pt; mso-height-source: userset" height=18><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ffffff; BORDER-TOP: #ffffff; BORDER-LEFT: #ffffff; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ffffff; HEIGHT: 13.5pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=18>FCP</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ffffff; BORDER-TOP: #ffffff; BORDER-LEFT: #ffffff; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ffffff; BACKGROUND-COLOR: silver" align=right x:num="9">$9.00 </TD><TD class=xl28 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ffffff; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ffffff; BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ccffff">thermostat and gasket, 82* celcius</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 13.5pt; mso-height-source: userset" height=18><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ffffff; BORDER-TOP: #ffffff; BORDER-LEFT: #ffffff; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ffffff; HEIGHT: 13.5pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=18>FCP</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ffffff; BORDER-TOP: #ffffff; BORDER-LEFT: #ffffff; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ffffff; BACKGROUND-COLOR: silver" align=right x:num="4">$4.00 </TD><TD class=xl28 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ffffff; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ffffff; BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ccffff">Oil pump o-rings (2 needed, buy 4)</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 13.5pt; mso-height-source: userset" height=18><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ffffff; BORDER-TOP: #ffffff; BORDER-LEFT: #ffffff; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ffffff; HEIGHT: 13.5pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=18>FCP</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ffffff; BORDER-TOP: #ffffff; BORDER-LEFT: #ffffff; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ffffff; BACKGROUND-COLOR: silver" align=right x:num="8">$8.00 </TD><TD class=xl28 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ffffff; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ffffff; BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ccffff">valve absorbers (8)</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 13.5pt; mso-height-source: userset" height=18><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ffffff; BORDER-TOP: #ffffff; BORDER-LEFT: #ffffff; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ffffff; HEIGHT: 13.5pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=18>FCP</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ffffff; BORDER-TOP: #ffffff; BORDER-LEFT: #ffffff; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ffffff; BACKGROUND-COLOR: silver" align=right x:num="10">$10.00 </TD><TD class=xl28 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ffffff; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ffffff; BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ccffff">fuel filter</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 13.5pt; mso-height-source: userset" height=18><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ffffff; BORDER-TOP: #ffffff; BORDER-LEFT: #ffffff; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ffffff; HEIGHT: 13.5pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=18>FCP</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ffffff; BORDER-TOP: #ffffff; BORDER-LEFT: #ffffff; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ffffff; BACKGROUND-COLOR: silver" align=right x:num="5.25">$5.25 </TD><TD class=xl26 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ffffff; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ffffff; BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ccffff">rubber alternator bushings</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 13.5pt; mso-height-source: userset" height=18><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ffffff; BORDER-TOP: #ffffff; BORDER-LEFT: #ffffff; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ffffff; HEIGHT: 13.5pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=18></TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ffffff; BORDER-TOP: #ffffff; BORDER-LEFT: #ffffff; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ffffff; BACKGROUND-COLOR: silver">free</TD><TD class=xl26 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ffffff; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ffffff; BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ccffff">405 head (mine, had an extra)</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 13.5pt; mso-height-source: userset" height=18><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ffffff; BORDER-TOP: #ffffff; BORDER-LEFT: #ffffff; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ffffff; HEIGHT: 13.5pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=18></TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ffffff; BORDER-TOP: #ffffff; BORDER-LEFT: #ffffff; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ffffff; BACKGROUND-COLOR: silver">free</TD><TD class=xl26 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ffffff; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ffffff; BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ccffff">90+ manifold (mine, had an extra)</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 13.5pt; mso-height-source: userset" height=18><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ffffff; BORDER-TOP: #ffffff; BORDER-LEFT: #ffffff; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ffffff; HEIGHT: 13.5pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=18>Summit</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ffffff; BORDER-TOP: #ffffff; BORDER-LEFT: #ffffff; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ffffff; BACKGROUND-COLOR: silver" align=right x:num="34.95">$34.95 </TD><TD class=xl26 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ffffff; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ffffff; BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ccffff">Oil filter relocation kit from Summit</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 13.5pt; mso-height-source: userset" height=18><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ffffff; BORDER-TOP: #ffffff; BORDER-LEFT: #ffffff; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ffffff; HEIGHT: 13.5pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=18>Summit</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ffffff; BORDER-TOP: #ffffff; BORDER-LEFT: #ffffff; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ffffff; BACKGROUND-COLOR: silver" align=right x:num="40">$40.00 </TD><TD class=xl26 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ffffff; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ffffff; BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ccffff">Mechanical oil pressure gauge</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 13.5pt; mso-height-source: userset" height=18><TD class=xl29 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ffffff; BORDER-TOP: #ffffff; BORDER-LEFT: #ffffff; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ffffff; HEIGHT: 13.5pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=18>Summit</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ffffff; BORDER-TOP: #ffffff; BORDER-LEFT: #ffffff; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ffffff; BACKGROUND-COLOR: silver" align=right x:num="70">$70.00 </TD><TD class=xl26 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ffffff; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ffffff; BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ccffff">3" downpipe and cat, cat from summit ($48) 180* U-bend</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 13.5pt; mso-height-source: userset" height=18><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ffffff; BORDER-TOP: #ffffff; BORDER-LEFT: #ffffff; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ffffff; HEIGHT: 13.5pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=18>Matt</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ffffff; BORDER-TOP: #ffffff; BORDER-LEFT: #ffffff; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ffffff; BACKGROUND-COLOR: silver" align=right x:num="85">$85.00 </TD><TD class=xl28 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ffffff; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ffffff; BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ccffff">B21F pistons from Matt Dupuis $100can</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 13.5pt; mso-height-source: userset" height=18><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ffffff; BORDER-TOP: #ffffff; BORDER-LEFT: #ffffff; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ffffff; HEIGHT: 13.5pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=18>n xntrx volvo</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ffffff; BORDER-TOP: #ffffff; BORDER-LEFT: #ffffff; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ffffff; BACKGROUND-COLOR: silver" align=right x:num="35">$35.00 </TD><TD class=xl26 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ffffff; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ffffff; BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ccffff">CFI injectors and 740 fuel rail</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 13.5pt; mso-height-source: userset" height=18><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ffffff; BORDER-TOP: #ffffff; BORDER-LEFT: #ffffff; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ffffff; HEIGHT: 13.5pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=18>Boris</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ffffff; BORDER-TOP: #ffffff; BORDER-LEFT: #ffffff; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ffffff; BACKGROUND-COLOR: silver">free</TD><TD class=xl26 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ffffff; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ffffff; BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ccffff">Knock sense (had it laying around, for MY engine, but Erik needs it sooner)</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 13.5pt; mso-height-source: userset" height=18><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ffffff; BORDER-TOP: #ffffff; BORDER-LEFT: #ffffff; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ffffff; HEIGHT: 13.5pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=18>junkyard</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ffffff; BORDER-TOP: #ffffff; BORDER-LEFT: #ffffff; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ffffff; BACKGROUND-COLOR: silver" align=right x:num="35">$35.00 </TD><TD class=xl26 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ffffff; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ffffff; BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ccffff">electric fan to be triggered by MS</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 13.5pt; mso-height-source: userset" height=18><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ffffff; BORDER-TOP: #ffffff; BORDER-LEFT: #ffffff; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ffffff; HEIGHT: 13.5pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=18>Jordan Crump</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ffffff; BORDER-TOP: #ffffff; BORDER-LEFT: #ffffff; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ffffff; BACKGROUND-COLOR: silver" align=right x:num="60">$60.00 </TD><TD class=xl26 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ffffff; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ffffff; BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ccffff">GT Dash/gauge cluster and VOLVO shoulder pads</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 13.5pt; mso-height-source: userset" height=18><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ffffff; BORDER-TOP: #ffffff; BORDER-LEFT: #ffffff; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ffffff; HEIGHT: 13.5pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=18></TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ffffff; BORDER-TOP: #ffffff; BORDER-LEFT: #ffffff; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ffffff; BACKGROUND-COLOR: silver"></TD><TD class=xl26 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ffffff; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ffffff; BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ccffff"></TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 13.5pt; mso-height-source: userset" height=18><TD class=xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; HEIGHT: 13.5pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: yellow" align=right height=18 x:num="299.95" x:fmla="=SUM(B37:B43)">$723.28</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ffffff; BORDER-TOP: #ffffff; BORDER-LEFT: #ffffff; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ffffff; BACKGROUND-COLOR: silver"></TD><TD class=xl26 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ffffff; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ffffff; BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ccffff"></TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 13.5pt; mso-height-source: userset" height=18><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ffffff; BORDER-TOP: #ffffff; BORDER-LEFT: #ffffff; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ffffff; HEIGHT: 13.5pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=18></TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ffffff; BORDER-TOP: #ffffff; BORDER-LEFT: #ffffff; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ffffff; BACKGROUND-COLOR: silver"></TD><TD class=xl27 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ffffff; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ffffff; BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ccffff">Balancing the rotating assembly</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 13.5pt; mso-height-source: userset" height=18><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ffffff; BORDER-TOP: #ffffff; BORDER-LEFT: #ffffff; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ffffff; HEIGHT: 13.5pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=18></TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ffffff; BORDER-TOP: #ffffff; BORDER-LEFT: #ffffff; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ffffff; BACKGROUND-COLOR: silver" align=right x:num="150">$150.00 </TD><TD class=xl28 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ffffff; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ffffff; BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ccffff">Balanced the pistons to within .5 grams of eachother</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 13.5pt; mso-height-source: userset" height=18><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ffffff; BORDER-TOP: #ffffff; BORDER-LEFT: #ffffff; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ffffff; HEIGHT: 13.5pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=18></TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ffffff; BORDER-TOP: #ffffff; BORDER-LEFT: #ffffff; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ffffff; BACKGROUND-COLOR: silver"></TD><TD class=xl28 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ffffff; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ffffff; BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ccffff">Balanced the rods to within .5 grams of eachother</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 13.5pt; mso-height-source: userset" height=18><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ffffff; BORDER-TOP: #ffffff; BORDER-LEFT: #ffffff; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ffffff; HEIGHT: 13.5pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=18></TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ffffff; BORDER-TOP: #ffffff; BORDER-LEFT: #ffffff; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ffffff; BACKGROUND-COLOR: silver"></TD><TD class=xl28 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ffffff; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ffffff; BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ccffff">Balanced the flywheel neutral</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 13.5pt; mso-height-source: userset" height=18><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ffffff; BORDER-TOP: #ffffff; BORDER-LEFT: #ffffff; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ffffff; HEIGHT: 13.5pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=18></TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ffffff; BORDER-TOP: #ffffff; BORDER-LEFT: #ffffff; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ffffff; BACKGROUND-COLOR: silver"></TD><TD class=xl28 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ffffff; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ffffff; BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ccffff">Balanced the crank to within .30 tolerance on each side</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 13.5pt; mso-height-source: userset" height=18><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ffffff; BORDER-TOP: #ffffff; BORDER-LEFT: #ffffff; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ffffff; HEIGHT: 13.5pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=18></TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ffffff; BORDER-TOP: #ffffff; BORDER-LEFT: #ffffff; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ffffff; BACKGROUND-COLOR: silver"></TD><TD class=xl28 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ffffff; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ffffff; BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ccffff" x:str="(the crank can be balanced to street specs of .60 tolerance or race specs of .30 tolerance. ">(the crank can be balanced to street specs of .60 tolerance or race specs of .30 tolerance. </TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 13.5pt; mso-height-source: userset" height=18><TD class=xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; HEIGHT: 13.5pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: yellow" align=right height=18 x:num="150" x:fmla="=SUM(B48:B53)">$150.00</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ffffff; BORDER-TOP: #ffffff; BORDER-LEFT: #ffffff; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ffffff; BACKGROUND-COLOR: silver"></TD><TD class=xl28 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: #ffffff; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ffffff; BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ccffff">Ours ended up being .27 on one side of the centerline and .12 on the other side. VERY well balanced!!</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 13.5pt" height=18><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ffffff; BORDER-TOP: #ffffff; BORDER-LEFT: #ffffff; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ffffff; HEIGHT: 13.5pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=18></TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ffffff; BORDER-TOP: #ffffff; BORDER-LEFT: #ffffff; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ffffff; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"></TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ffffff; BORDER-TOP: #ffffff; BORDER-LEFT: #ffffff; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ffffff; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"></TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 13.5pt" height=18><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ffffff; BORDER-TOP: #ffffff; BORDER-LEFT: #ffffff; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ffffff; HEIGHT: 13.5pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=18></TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ffffff; BORDER-TOP: #ffffff; BORDER-LEFT: #ffffff; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ffffff; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"></TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ffffff; BORDER-TOP: #ffffff; BORDER-LEFT: #ffffff; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ffffff; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"></TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 13.5pt" height=18><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ffffff; BORDER-TOP: #ffffff; BORDER-LEFT: #ffffff; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ffffff; HEIGHT: 13.5pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" height=18></TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ffffff; BORDER-TOP: #ffffff; BORDER-LEFT: #ffffff; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ffffff; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"></TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ffffff; BORDER-TOP: #ffffff; BORDER-LEFT: #ffffff; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ffffff; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"></TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 13.5pt; mso-height-source: userset" height=18><TD class=xl30 style="BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 0.5pt solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 0.5pt solid; HEIGHT: 13.5pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: yellow" align=right height=18 x:num="1763.12" x:fmla="=SUM(B1:B57)">$1,728.12</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ffffff; BORDER-TOP: #ffffff; BORDER-LEFT: #ffffff; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ffffff; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"></TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ffffff; BORDER-TOP: #ffffff; BORDER-LEFT: #ffffff; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ffffff; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">Total cost, give or take. In the end it's probably $2,000us invested during this round of upgrades.</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

GTJordan

12-10-2004, 04:49 AM

Its odd, but a while ago, I was thinking, Erics going to paint that engine pink... I dunno why, but I could just picture it...

Creeps me out thinking about how I thought about that a good 3 weeks ago

Jordan

The Aspirator

12-10-2004, 12:57 PM

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

stylngle2003

12-10-2004, 01:26 PM

too bad you couldnt find pink haha

thats a very reasonable budget for a performance motor build...it should be bulletproof :x:

stealthfti

12-11-2004, 01:17 PM

John,

the list looks good; effort and $$ put where it counts. Now, it is time for careful and patient assembly.

re block prep: I use WD in a pump spray bottle to coat and lube the internal surfaces. That gray coating your MS put on the outside of the block may be a paint that you can paint over. or you may have to brush/clean it off to get your paint to stick.

To add to Doug's comments: after you give the block a good washing and passage brushing with soap and hot water, and blow off with air, you do want to WD the machined surfaces etc immediately. Once that is done so no surface rust flashes on, then wipe the excess WD off the surfaces you need to mask off. Any WD overspray on the to-be-painted surfaces will come off with carb spray and a clean rag. It helps to do all this with the block on an engine stand so you can rotate it so things drain easier and quicker.

The way I do it is this: when the block comes back from the MS [they already sprayed down for surface rust], I prep the surfaces that I intend to paint, and then get it painted. I'll let the paint cure out a day or so. Then I do the washing and passage flushing/brushing. Then I can WD the heck out of things and not worry about it. The paint is already cured; the WD won't hurt it. Then I bag it to keep the dust off. 55 gallon transparent trash bags work nicely for that.

re engine colors: it is a personal choice. I would not go with colors like pink or purple, but whatever. Black is beautiful; just that it hides things. The block kinda disappears into the background; and the black hides leaks. That is why I use a warn, bright color: the block remains very visible; and any seeps or leaks are quickly apparent. Any motor I do is done in Chevy Orange, because it is so visible, and because it gives a pleasant contrast to the aluminum and black of other things. With chevy orange, there is no mistaking where the block/pan are at; and any fluid loss shows up right away. I can correct a minor problem before it becomes a major problem.

A light, bright block color can be helpful when trying to do things in poor lighting conditions. You can see better. The brightness aspect is also why I tend to paint the engine compartment in a light color as well, usually a silver color. That can multiply the brightness of a shop light when doing things at night. And if you have tried to fix something at night with just a flashlight to see with, you will appreciate the light enhancing colors. But it is your choice.

I hope that you got yourself a green manual by now.

TF

Hank Scorpio

12-11-2004, 02:16 PM

Remeber:

Black blows up
Red is stuck in the 14's
Blue is fast as stink but leaks oil and blows freezeplugs (and head gaskets) :rofl:

The Aspirator

12-11-2004, 05:55 PM

Ok I'm at my brothers place right now looking over the engine. And unfortunately no one told me to WD40 it before!!!! So now it's got a nice thin film of surface rust on the deck, and a tiny bit down the cylinder bores and on one main bearing. :grrr: Steel wool easily gets it off, so right now I'm off to the sporting goods store to buy some rifle brushes and a bunch of WD40. I'll roll the block outside, steel wool off ALL rust I can find, then wash the heck out of it and clean the passages. Then I'll dry it and paint it. Ohh yeah gotta JBweld those freeze plugs in first.

My brother Erik also changed his mind on the color, black does hide oil leaks and we can't have that. So it's going silver/aluminum color. A bunch of accessories will be black like the water pump and turbo/manifold. Compressor housing will be red like his engine bay. It'll be a very bright engine! Nice...

John

The Aspirator

12-11-2004, 09:45 PM

The rust was easy to steel wool off, but ya gotta be careful not to get chunks of steel wool all over the oil galleys and cylinder walls! Then I rolled the engine stand outside and hosed it off. Then WD40'd the deck and all internals. Then hosed again with warm water (it's COLD out here!). Then sponged the whole thing with soap and water. Then rinse. Then more WD40 on the deck and all internals. Then rotate to get all the water out of the bolt holes and coolant passages. Then more WD40. Then more WD40. Then more WD40 :-P .

Luckily the crank was still all oily from when we balanced it.

It's dark out now and I didn't want to leave a partially wet block outside, or even in my cold shop. So I carried it inside the house, there's this "middle" room where the furnace is so it's nice and warm in there. That should dry it out! I'm just about to gob some JBweld onto those freeze plugs, and I think I realized the reason for this! Since the coolant will probably never freeze, when you blow a headgasket it's possible to pressureize the coolant passages, which could blow out a freeze plug...? So what, are they a pain in the ass to put back in or something? I just had my machine shop do mine.

Ohh, gotta go spray some more WD40 on..........:-D

Hank Scorpio

12-11-2004, 09:52 PM

John:

The freezeplugs are mostly for casting the block. They are designed to pop out if the block freezes over (not a problem for me in CA). I have heard of random plug "pop outs" and have experienced it before. On a high performance application I JBweld the piss out of them. Jb weld on the block... drive them in so they are concaved then jbweld over the 'seams'.

Doug

The Aspirator

12-11-2004, 10:00 PM

I forget, at what temperature does antifreeze freeze at? It never gets below 0*F here, yet alone below 20*F... We get like 5 days of snow a year, but he will be taking this car up to go snowboarding a LOT and its obviously cold up there. I just don't want stupid freeze plugs to randomly pop out and cause problems! Hell, if he moves to a super cold climate he'll just have to change his antifreeze to the super cold stuff.

Also, I've noticed that his B21 has only 4 freeze plugs on the exhaust side. But my new B23 has 4 on the exhaust side and I think 3 on the intake side. Weird. Is it cause the cylinders are thicker on a B21 so they don't need the extra protection? Or should I just stop worrying about dumb little things like this? ;-)

The Aspirator

12-13-2004, 05:53 PM

Man, head porting is a LOT of work! If I had my own air compressor it wouldn't be that hard, but since I have to go to all my friends houses and use their air, it takes more than a few trips to port out a head. Plus I'm learning, it's going quicker and quicker now that I know what I'm doing. I'm up to almost 56cc's. I've realized that 1cc is actually quite a bit of material. I took my syringe and filled it with 1cc, then squirted it into a cap. It's alot! I can't imagine that there's much more than 5cc's to be taken away from a combustion chamber.

Got the block all cleaned up and painted with 6 coats of Duplicolor 500* aluminum paint. I painted the water pump and the front crank guard seal thingie in gloss black. Looks AWESOME. I slid one piston down a hole just to feel what .020" wall clearance feels like. It actually wiggles more than I expected. Though looking at my digital caliper, .020 is a noticable gap. So for the pistons is that .020" clearance on each side of the piston?

We brought a whole huge box of parts to my buddy's house so we could use his bead blaster, got about halfway done after 2 hours.....

So the top end will consist of a ported 405 head, 90+ exhaust manifold, 60/63, 3" downpipe/cat/exhaust system, B21F intake manifold, 740 fuel rail, dodge 4bar FPR, CFI injectors (56 lbs @4bar), and a stock intercooler.

Upgrades for the near future will be either a T5 or Getrag transmission and clutch, LSD rear end, T3/T4 turbo and an NPR intercooler.

Matt Dupuis

12-13-2004, 06:54 PM

A couple of things:

Antifreeze freezes at -14*C or so when it's not mixed with water. When mixed 50/50, it freezes at -36*C or so, and when mixed 70/30 (AF rich) it's closer to -50*C, but the heat transfer properties goes way down. Use as little as you need.

Don't worry about the number of freeze plugs. It's one of those dumb little things.

Porting a head is a lot of work - it's something most people talk about like it's no big thing. 5ccs is lots of aluminum shavings out of each of 4 chambers... Tons of work.

You'd better not have .020" piston-to-wall clearance! Even .002" is too much for those pistons, and that's on the diameter, so half that per side.

Edit - what happened to your avatar? Are you currently boost-less?

stealthfti

12-13-2004, 06:58 PM

John, that is supposed to be 0.002in; not 0.020in. Two thou is a lot less that twenty thou.

and with two thou, the piston will rock a bit if the rings are not on. because the ring land area is a smaller diameter than the skirt is: the ringland area expands considerably more than the skirt area.

and when talking piston to cyl wall clearance, the clearance is the total difference in diameter: the piston diameter [measured at the skirt in the specified location] should be two thou smaller than the diameter of the cylinder bore.

TF

The Aspirator

12-13-2004, 07:40 PM

SORRY! I thought it was .020 piston clearance but I was totally wrong. It's DEFINATELY .002". I'll edit my post above just so I don't confuse people. Matt you said 2 thou is too much clearance for these pistons? Well tough cause that's what we got. But why do you say that??

Thanks for the antifreeze tips, 50/50 freezing at -36*C should be PLENTY.

To my dismay, yes I am currently boostless. I figured it was the only way to cheaply and easily make my car work properly..... at least until my wagon is done :twisted: . But with my wastegate not controlling crap (plus it fell off again), droing exhaust (needs a flex joint), weak B230, slipping clutch in 3rd, blah blah blah, N/A was the easiest solution. Remove turbo and exhaust, install N/A exhaust, tune for 10 minutes. Drives great but it's slow as hell!!

The Aspirator

12-13-2004, 11:19 PM

So I've been e-mailing my brother all day, he was working on the car by himself today. I gave him specific instructions on how to install the crank and bearings, and also how to plasigauge them. He told me that the #1 bearing (thrust right?) didn't want to go into the block too easily, while all the others when in just fine. okay, i put the crank in and bolted it down. undid it and measure. all are good at .002 except #1. its at .003. i didnt put it back in yet. Is this okay???
Soooo, that's what the plastigauge got him. I told him to torque it down to Haynes manual specs. What's the deal with the #1 bearing??? I guess I could use my digital caliper and measure the crank bearings to make sure they're all the same..... Or is it in the bearing, like it's supposed to be this way??

:???:

245gti

12-13-2004, 11:30 PM

Hmmmm...seems to me that when I got my crank turned, they touched up the thrust surface but didn't actually remove enough material. The o/s bearings have oversize thrust surface thickness too, if I'm not mistaken. Might be worth checking that out before you force things.....

Matt Dupuis

12-13-2004, 11:45 PM

Thrust bearing is #5.

Make sure you get the cap on the right direction.

The Aspirator

12-14-2004, 12:18 AM

Humm, he might have been looking at #5, though he said #1. It didn't sound like he had to force anything, just that it didn't pop into place like the rest of 'em did. What direction do the caps to in? Like what side to you put the numbers on? Intake side or exhaust side?

stealthfti

12-14-2004, 12:29 AM

John,

when you plastigage a bearing, you do one at a time:
...you have all the upper shells in the block.....clean and dry...
...you lay the crank in carefully onto the upper shells...[see comment below on thrust bearings]
...and the shell halves that are grooved are the ones that lay in the block; the full surface shell halves go into the bearing caps. The same rule applies to rod bearings, when the rod bearings have grooved uppers.

...you then lay a piece of plastigage onto the crank surface for the bearing that you are going to check....cut to about the same length as the bearing shell is wide...
...then you carefully lower the bearing cap, with the lower bearing shell in it...onto the crank journal...seat the cap gently...
....install the two main bearing bolts.....lightly oiled threads....and draw them down to just about snug...then, to snug...
....THEN you torque those two main bearing bolts to specs...
....THEN you loosen both bolts and remove them....and put them into the holder so that the bolts go back into the same hole at final assembly....
....then you gently lift the main cap; and check the plastigage crush to see the apparent clearance.

DO NOT be afraid to do this a couple of times in order to make sure that it was done correctly; and to verify the results.

After doing the gaging of the clearance on one main bearing, you then proceed to the next one.

I may sound a bit paranoid, but it sounds like your brother was trying to do all five at once???

You do it one at a time.

The thrust bearing is at #5 [at the bellhousing end of the block]; as has been mentioned. Replacement OS bearings usually have an extra thou or so of bearing material to accomodate the wear. You DO have to measure the thrust bearing clearance. It's called the crankshaft 'axial' clearance. and that IS an important clearance that has to be within specs.

And when laying in the crankshaft, you do have to be careful to not knick the hell out of the thrust bearing surfaces at #5 upper shell.

The crankshaft will be in and out of the block at least three times before it goes in for the duration. Tell your brother that; and impress on him the need to be deliberate and cautious.

This is no time to get into any kind of a hurry. Clearances are checked and rechecked....and written down.

the main caps have arrows on them indicating the front of the motor.

and often, one or more of the caps resists being set into the block to be tightened in place. Those require some patient coaxing to get them into place. all this work is done clean and dry, with the exception of the bolt threads being lightly oiled.

Once the crankshaft main bearing clearances are verified.....two thou is middle/high of specs; three thou is borderline high, but tolerable at the thrust [not my pref, but doable]...and the thrust bearing axial clearance is measured and verified, and recorded....THEN each rod/piston is installed without rings: to measure and verify rod bearing clearances....and to measure and verify rod 'axial' clearances.

TF

The Aspirator

12-14-2004, 01:28 AM

Yes I believe that Erik plastigauges all 5 at once cause, well, I told him to. I've never done this either, so I'm still a noob at all this. Now I know! :-D

...and the shell halves that are grooved are the ones that lay in the block; the full surface shell halves go into the bearing caps. The same rule applies to rod bearings, when the rod bearings have grooved uppers.
Good to know, I haven't looked closely enough at the bearings yet to realize that the tops and bottoms were different, so my brother didn't know this either.

I did stress to him to be VERY careful, and it sounds like everything went very smoothly. I don't think that he oiled the threads, although I have been spraying them with WD40 alot lately so they're not totally dry.

....then you gently lift the main cap; and check the plastigage crush to see the apparent clearance. So you're saying that we should also measure the top of the bearing to bearing cap clearance? What are the specs on this? I unfortunately have not yet procured a Green manual, though when I build my engine I'll definately get one.

How does one measure the thrust bearing axial clearance? I'm assuming that lets the crank slide back and forth a little bit? (I haven't assembled a shortblock yet, just torn apart a few) What are the specs for this, and how would one modify it were the clearances out of wack? Also what are the rod axial specs?

(the need for a green manual is becoming painfully obvious, but I've got you guys for support!!)

stealthfti

12-14-2004, 03:01 AM

John,

when you plastigage the mains or rods, the clearance shown by the plastigage is the total clearance. You don't have to do the upper separately.

John. you need a copy of the green manual now; should have had it by now. Talk to Cappy about mebbe borrowing or copying one.

crank axial clearance is measured via dial indicator at the end of the crank; to see the back and forth movement of the crank between the thrust bearing surfaces at #5. [an alternate procedure is to use feeler gages to check the thrust clearance when the crank is pushed either forwards or backwards: you just slide the feeler gage in between the crank and bearing. That requires a feeler gage set that goes from about two thou to ten thou or more in increments of one thou]

rod axial clearance is measured via feeler gages with the rod installed and torqued on the crank.

off the top of my head, crank axial is max seven thou; rod axial is 14 to 18 thou; but verify that in the green manual.

the crank axial clearance is something your MS should have verified when he had the crank and the bearing set; or at least measured the dimension in the crank itself, esp when he resized the journal undersize. Unless the crank was actually worn in that place [usually due to severe axial loading from hellaciously heavy PSI pressure plates OR by an auto trannie with hellacious line pressure, or a ballooning torque converter] , it usually is okay. The wear is normally absorbed by the thrust bearing surfaces of the bearing shells. BUT, you do have to measure and verify....esp if you have a manual trannie. Crank axial clearance is one of those things that the MS usually checks out; but that you also are responsible to measure and verify.

which brings up a little sidebar: just putting in a stiffer pressure pressure plate can cause more problems than it supposedly solves. A HD pressure plate can eat a thrust bearing...AND the crank. BTDT [just something to be aware of] [and there are a few tricks that can be done to help keep a thrust bearing alive]

I understand that this is a fairly new experience for you. Which is part of why I have suggested on several occasions that you have the green manual. No, the green manual is not the do-all, end-all; and yes, you could build the motor without it. It is just that it is a hell of a lot easier for me to refer you to the manual and to explain or add to what is in the manual; rather than trying to basically rewrite the manual here. Trying to write a word picture, when there already is a picture about it, is not a lot of fun. And if you had the green manual, a whole lot of little things would click in your mind as you read it, saving you time and aggravation.

I do not know everything there is to know....not by a d**n sight; but it is easier to answer a question that is asked beforehand rather than trying to anticipate an unasked question; or to try to address something during or after the fact.

With the green manual, you can lay out and know just what to do when. [and ask questions about those things not clear to you] Because the green manual is not comprehensive and verbose in the descriptions, that is where explanations and commentary help fill in the blanks.

I realize that you and your brother both want to get this motor done, in, and running. So do I. I want you to do it so that you will know [and understand why] what you are doing AS you are doing it; and building the knowledge base in your mind for future use in the next motor build.

okay?

if you have the green manual, everyone can be on the same page.

TF

Captain Bondo

12-14-2004, 03:26 AM

Lack of green manual is largely my fault- didn't copy it and then John mentioned the MS had the specs so I didn't. Anyways I will just copy it tomorrow regardless and then you'll have it. MS's sure love making the piston clearances too loose... ;-)

The Aspirator

12-16-2004, 04:05 AM

Kenny, I'm just going to buy one, so don't worry about having to copy one for me. In the beginning of this build I don't think I realized what was in the Green manual. My machine shop already had all the specs he needed, so I thought the work of the green manual was done at this point. Boy was I wrong! So the next time you're E-helping someone like me rebuild an engine, make SURE they get one! :)

Ohh also I talked to my brother again, he said it was for sure #1 bearing and not the thrust that was .003", but he also said that it was "iffy". Also the fact that he tightened them all down with plastigauge in every one, might have thrown off the readings. I dunno, an individual test might reveal perfection.

MOAR PIXX!!

AAAAHHHHH!!! Surface rust!!! Eeeeeeek. This is what happens when you take the plastic wrap off the engine, prop it up on the engine stand, and leave it in the garage for a week. It's a dry garage, but the pacific northwest air is quite damp. As you can see on the right hand side, some fine steel wool easily took off all the rust:
http://www.j2mediagroup.com/john/Erik-b21ft11.jpg

These are the pistons we're using:
http://www.j2mediagroup.com/john/Erik-b21ft12.jpg

We're also converting from his old nasty cracked tan mid 80's dash to a perfect condition black dash from a late 70's 244, notice the gauge cluster already plugged in for testing. Also notice the little magical box in the right/middle of the pic :lol: :
http://www.j2mediagroup.com/john/Erik-b21ft13.jpg

The flywheel we're using is on the right. But I'm curious, is the one on the left still useable? Say after a beadblast and a surface? Might use it for my next engine if it's still good.
http://www.j2mediagroup.com/john/Erik-b21ft14.jpg

Here's the flywheel being balanced. You can see the yellow laser thing, which calculates the RPM every time it sees that white stripe rotate around. We balanced the flywheel neutral, though we couldn't check the pressure plate cause I forgot the bolts at home:
http://www.j2mediagroup.com/john/Erik-b21ft15.jpg

The crank, after being machined for undersize bearings. Also notice the two drilled holes, this is where we had to take off weight to balance it:
http://www.j2mediagroup.com/john/Erik-b21ft16.jpg

Here's the balancing machine/computer. The first two numbers on top are for the left side of the crank, and the second two are for the right side. The left side is out .27 tolerance at 80*, while the right side is out .12 tolerance at 34*. This is VERY VERY tight, basically perfect. Street spec is .60 tolerance, race spec is .30 tolerance, ours is pretty good eh? Then you can push a button and find out how many grams it's heavy by, but I didn't snap that photo:
http://www.j2mediagroup.com/john/Erik-b21ft17.jpg

The balancing machine. The crank rotates there and is spun to about 500rpm by that band thing above it. The computer is calibrated so that 500rpm on the machine is equal to about 8000rpm on the street, so we're good to go!:
http://www.j2mediagroup.com/john/Erik-b21ft18.jpg

Duplicolor 500* Aluminum spraypaint. 6 coats. The new waterpump and that seal thingie in the front is painted with duplicolor 500* gloss black, about 4 coats:
http://www.j2mediagroup.com/john/Erik-b21ft19.jpg

More silver! Notice the JBwelded freeze plugs. I was using that new JB-Kwik stuff that sets in 5 minutes, and they're not kidding! It gets hard quickly, almost too quickly if you've got a lot of stuff to do. I had to mix two batches just for those freeze plugs:
http://www.j2mediagroup.com/john/Erik-b21ft20.jpg

adrianpike

12-16-2004, 05:15 AM

That's HOT. :twisted:

Here's an quick question about your MS install, it appears that you've installed it so that the front of the box goes further towards the rear than the silver plate in the passenger footwell, almost over that well where the stereo wires are run stock, what did you do to secure the front two holes? Is it just held in by the two mounting holes on the DB29/MAP side?

Also, that piston appears to have some discoloration/goop on the face, is that normal/OK?

Matt Dupuis

12-16-2004, 09:58 AM

I believe that's the rare "greasy thumb print" in it's natural habitat. Commonly known as a "stain", it's mortally wounded by "carb clean".

Edit - hey John; does that water pump have a cast impeller or is it the stamped steel one? The stamped one seems to move more water, but I've had bad luck bursting heater cores and blowing frost plugs with it if I rev it much over 6000. FYI, even though you've used the magical epoxy on your plugs.

The Aspirator

12-16-2004, 02:51 PM

Here's an quick question about your MS install, it appears that you've installed it so that the front of the box goes further towards the rear than the silver plate in the passenger footwell, almost over that well where the stereo wires are run stock, what did you do to secure the front two holes? Is it just held in by the two mounting holes on the DB29/MAP side?Works really well here. It's just far enough up and back that passengers won't kick it, but nice and visible fo dekorashun. I also put some thick peices of bike inner tube between the MS and the chassis, dunno if it really needs it but ohh well.
http://www.vipinfoservices.com/john/images/erik-megasquirt01.jpg

I believe that's the rare "greasy thumb print" in it's natural habitat. Commonly known as a "stain", it's mortally wounded by "carb clean". :werd: These were bead blasted by the man himself, Matt! Then packaged and shipped over here, then messed with by me, then my brother, then the machine shop while he cleaned the grooves out, then me again....... so yeah it's probably grease. Although these are slightly used pistons. Used pistons are black on top, and brand new pistons aren't quite as shiny silver, more of a dull dark aluminum. I'll show you my brand new B23 pistons next time you're around. :-D

Edit - hey John; does that water pump have a cast impeller or is it the stamped steel one? The stamped one seems to move more water, but I've had bad luck bursting heater cores and blowing frost plugs with it if I rev it much over 6000. FYI, even though you've used the magical epoxy on your plugs.Thanks for the warning, I remember you mentioning different water pumps in another thread, but I had no idea what you're talking about. I can't say I know how to spot the difference between the two, but if I had to guess I think it was a cast impeller. I think it said made in Germany on it, and had a very yellow/gold impeller that looked like it was formed in a mold. I'm assuming the stamped steel one wouldn't have the casting ridges, well this one did if I remember right. So we should be good to go?

John

Canuckvolvo

12-16-2004, 03:39 PM

Thanks for the warning, I remember you mentioning different water pumps in another thread, but I had no idea what you're talking about. I can't say I know how to spot the difference between the two, but if I had to guess I think it was a cast impeller. I think it said made in Germany on it, and had a very yellow/gold impeller that looked like it was formed in a mold. I'm assuming the stamped steel one wouldn't have the casting ridges, well this one did if I remember right. So we should be good to go?
John
Cast: http://img.eautopartscatalog.com/live/G300039377HEP.JPG
stamped:http://img.eautopartscatalog.com/live/G300039377GMB.JPG

The Aspirator

12-16-2004, 05:10 PM

Thanks Athal!! The cast one is clearly the one that we got. That exact one actually.....

Hank Scorpio

12-16-2004, 06:52 PM

Wait.. John did you bead blast your pistons?

The Aspirator

12-16-2004, 07:12 PM

Matt did before he sent them to me. He said he used them for a few thousand miles. The machine shop cleaned them up and mic'ed each one and they all spec'ed out to be perfect. Why do you sound concerned?

Hank Scorpio

12-16-2004, 08:04 PM

I may be wrong, but beadblasting them will rough up the surface. The pistons are typically smooth for a reason.

The Aspirator

12-16-2004, 08:12 PM

Hank Scorpio

12-16-2004, 08:38 PM

Well it's not really that they're rough, more like there's just a tiny thin layer of "fuzz" on the outside. I can scratch the surface with my fingernail and that makes it smooth, but barely takes off a micron of metal. Plus the machine shop had them for a few weeks and didn't mention a concern at all.

Like I said.. it was just something I was thinking. Obviously the piston "floats" a bit in the cylinder... but always prefered to just leave them as they came from the factory.

Matt Dupuis

12-16-2004, 08:55 PM

I had mentioned to John that he should polish them with a scotch-brite pad to smooth them out a little. Having them a little rough isn't necessarily a bad thing - they trap more oil between the skirt and cylinder wall, similar to if they'd been knurled, which is a very common method of hand-fitting cylinders to slightly oversize bores. This should keep them from scuffing as badly as if they were smooth-smooth. Also, Larry Widmer actually suggests roughing up the crown for a thin layer of carbon to build up and grab on to, to aid combustion. Dunno if that's his exact reasoning, but it's what he tells everyone to do. Furthermore, if you're going to be applying coatings to either the crown or the skirt, bead blasting is the preferred method of treatment, so it's not at all harmful to the piston. Lastly, the bead I used is about 2 years old and almost past it's useful life, so it's more like baking soda than glass bead. Very fine... the surface of those pistons actually feels kind of like peach fuzz, but it looks far worse in the picture.

Hank Scorpio

12-16-2004, 08:59 PM

I haven't changed the bead in my blaster in almost a decade ;-) :rofl: Actually.. I've just added fresh stuff to it from time to time when need be.

740Weapon

12-16-2004, 09:07 PM

im having a bit of trouble following what was just discussed. i know your mostly discussing the sides of the pistions but... im doing a "building a 230F+was always a T from half way up" and what do yall think i should do. polish the piston tops or leave them as is?

stealthfti

12-19-2004, 02:34 AM

polish the piston tops or leave them as is?

leave them as is. 'Polishing' the crown is not something that has been shown to be of any help except for photogenic purposes. your choice; either way.

Smoothing/rounding the edges of the dish is a good idea. Some fine sandpaper works well, if the motor is apart. I shy away from using sandpaper on piston crowns if the pistons are in the block; not too keen on having any abrasives getting down the sides of the pistons to the rings.

If the shortblock is staying assembled, a scotchbite pad will do enough. Just be sure to vacuum the area really well with the shop vac when done.

TF

z537z

12-19-2004, 05:11 AM

Great thread everyone. Have been in private contact w/ John, but have a question for stealthfti/others.
Nobody mentioned an MSD system here. I've read the "more sparks make better burn" taglines, but how much of an advantage are we looking at here, any idea? Has anybody (I know Pat (tuff240) has) installed one of these systems on their car, seen improvements/not noticed any change?

Thought it was worth mentioning, especially if you're building a motor to peak performance...

Thanks

_z

pbonsalb

12-19-2004, 09:46 AM

Multispark CD ignitions provide multiple sparks only below about 3000 rpm. After that, things happen fast enough that there is time for only one spark.

My view is that multispark is more helpful on cars with older fuel and ignition technology and that it is the most helpful on those cars when they have modifications that are compromised towards performance. Radical cams and big carbs, for example, may load up the engine at low rpm. The extra sparks could help burn the fuel.

With modern fuel injection and ignitions, and particularly with programmable management that is well tuned, the multispark may not be so important. A hotter spark or a more sophisticated ignition (coil on plug) may provide the greatest improvement.

I have used multispark ignitions on both 240T and 740T and never noticed any improvements. On the other hand, they probably don't hurt. The failure rate is much higher than that of the stock ignition. I have had failures with MSD, Jacobs, and Crane multispark CD ignitions and with Jacobs and MSD coils. I have never had a stock Volvo ignition fail.

Philip Bradley

The Aspirator

12-19-2004, 01:52 PM

Green manual is in the mail! But for now I've still got some questions.

Hmmmm...seems to me that when I got my crank turned, they touched up the thrust surface but didn't actually remove enough material. The o/s bearings have oversize thrust surface thickness too, if I'm not mistaken. Might be worth checking that out before you force things.....Yesterday I played with the main bearings for a while and think that we've got a problem with the thrust bearings. The new bearings are having a real hard time sliding into the crank, and if there is supposed to be some side to side play, we've got issues. I think the side of one bearing got nicked up too. The bearings do slide in but it does take more force than I imagined it would (I can push them in with my fingers). And to get them out I have to gently tap them with a screwdriver and hammer, cause they ain't coming out by hand.

So does this mean that the crank thrust surfaces didn't get machined? I'll go out right now and look for visual signs of machining. My machine shop didn't do the machining to the crank, he sourced it out. He sent it to a place in Portland Oregon to have it done, so unfortunately I can't just run over there and make a few accusations. But if this is the case then I'll stop by my MS on monday and ask some questions.

What's the solution? Have the crank thrust surfaces ground? Or can the bearings be fiddled with (professionally) to get proper fit?

stealthfti

12-19-2004, 03:03 PM

you do have a problem.

Dale's comment is correct. And on some applications, VERY correct.

Since I have my MS supply the mains and rods, and they do the cranks in-house, that is his prob to verify that the thrust surfaces are machined to match the replacement bearings. Desired clearances are listed on the build sheet work order. I verify such during assembly.

The thing is that some bearings are OS on the thrusts as well as OS on the journals. And some makers offer more than one OS for the thrust surfaces [ie, a main set that is 10 thou OS on the journals can be offered with STD thrusts (which can be about 1 or 2 thou OS), 5 thou OS thrusts, or even 10 thou OS thrusts]. It CAN be a PITA to sort that out; and ASSuming that it is one way or the other is not wise. The MS that does the crank should have the bearings on hand when the machining is done; in order to verify just what the status is on the thrust surfaces being OS or not.

The redblocks are not offered all the options that american V8s can get in the bearings; partly cuz they're foreign; partly cuz 4 bangers don't usually get so messed up or messed around with as much as americans mess around with V8s. Still, what the bearing set comes as re the thrusts' sizing HAS to be confirmed and machining performed to accomodate that.

A dial caliper or some inside/outside mic's can give you the sizes of what is there. If you don't have at least 2 or 3 thou thrust clearance, you have a problem. They should not be "tight".

Take the crank and the mains back to your MS, and talk to him. See what he thinks; and what he sees that needs to be done. The correct way is NOT removing material from the thrust bearing faces of the main bearing shells. The crank will need to be ground.

TF

Hank Scorpio

12-19-2004, 03:16 PM

John, I forgot to mention (not sure if anyone else has) make SURE there is NO sharp edges on the pistons or in the combustion chambers. These will form hot spots that will help cause Pinging.

PB: I've had the MSD 6-al + MSD coil w/ MS. I had constant misfires over 15psi of boost. I switched to the MSD 7al2 and Jacobs coil and it would ignite any mixture and any boost (updwards of 20psi and 10:1 AFR's and it would still ignite it) and I could finally open my plug gaps back up to 30ish. They do work well... but I am above your normal OEM conditions (23FT, Decked and shaved head + big turbo and lots of fuel)

Doug

Morley

12-19-2004, 07:06 PM

Duplicolor 500* Aluminum spraypaint. 6 coats. The new waterpump and that seal thingie in the front is painted with duplicolor 500* gloss black, about 4 coats:
http://www.j2mediagroup.com/john/Erik-b21ft19.jpg

Aye, what's this? No freezeplugs on the left side of the engine? I have two there on my B23A and also had two there on my deceased B23ET....this is a B21ET block right?

The Aspirator

12-19-2004, 10:22 PM

Thanks for clearing that up Stealth, we do have a problem. Using my digital calipers I measured that the thrust bearing width ON THE CRANK is 1.535" (+-.0005), and the thrust bearing itself is exactly the same width (+-.0005). So there's no way we're getting 2 thou of endplay here. It kinda looks like the thrust surface might have been machined, it was very clean and shiny but not quite as perfect as the mains.... hard to say.

So what is the solution? I'll take it to my machine shop tomorrow and see what he says. Would it be possible to source a bearing like you mentioned, that is 1st undersize for the shell but not oversized on the thrust surface? I believe he simply orderd "first undersized bearings", they are Federal Mogul ones if that helps. Also I measured all the main bearing surfaces, this was kinda tricky with my calipers, but they all came out to be 2.4865" (+-.5 thou). Now according to the specs in my Haynes manual, the measurements for 1st undersize are 2.4881 to 2.4886 inches. I'm smaller than that. Does this mean that I'll get too much oil clearance? Acceptable?

I also measured the rod bearing surfaces, 2.105" (+-). The surface was ground to 2nd undersize (.020). The Haynes manual specs for 2nd undersize is 2.1055 to 2.1060. So I'm half a thou below minimum, if my measurements are correct. Maybe while I'm at the machine shop we can measure using his fancy mic's and such, though he assured me that he's had nothing but great service from this crank shop. Doesn't mean that they had the proper volvo specs to begin with though..............

While I was at Sears today I bought a ring expander tool for $6, that'll make life easier. Also bought a small file to gap the rings with.

I can't thank you guys enough for helping me out with this build. And this thread is turning into a monster! :rofl: Sooooo much great information here, just the way I like it. I'm basically trying to include EVERY aspect of the motor build into this thread, so that future readers know what's involved. This is a lot bigger project than I had expected, though I'm not complaining one bit. I just can't wait to build one of these suckers for myself!!!!! I'm calling Erik's motor practice for when I do mine soon.

John, I forgot to mention (not sure if anyone else has) make SURE there is NO sharp edges on the pistons or in the combustion chambers. These will form hot spots that will help cause Pinging.Thanks for reminding me, though I haven't forgotten. But it's good that you guys keep bringing facts like this up, just to drive the point across. Right now the combustion chambers look pretty jagged, but I'm not nearly done with them yet. They'll be nice and smooth. And the pistons don't have any imperfections on them, I've checked several times.
Aye, what's this? No freezeplugs on the left side of the engine? I have two there on my B23A and also had two there on my deceased B23ET....this is a B21ET block right?Nope, no freeze plugs on B21's I guess. This one is a B21FT block. I asked this question earlier in the thread and Matt just said "don't think soo much...." :lol:

stealthfti

12-19-2004, 11:46 PM

It might be a good idea to take the block along with when you go to the MS. That way, he can install the bearing shells and measure the journal clearances when the caps torqued down. Which is the only way to get a true reading of the inside diameter. Why? because the inside diameter of the bearing shells can only be correctly measured when the shells have been put under the "crush" of the caps being torqued down. It is this "crush" of the bearing shells that holds the bearing shells in place....not that itsy bitsy chamfer nubbin sticking out the side of the end of the shell. That is just a 'locator' thingy.

If you take everything in with, then your MS guy can check it out. If you screwed something up, he can show you what it was that you did wrong. If you did not screw anything up, then he can see and figure out what IS wrong; and advise you on the best way to correct the deficiency.

IIRC, two and a half thou main clearance is about the max....but if one is at 3 thou, that is not the end of the world. A half thou or so is not the end of all things....just an extra half thou....

Thrust clearance is a bit more finicky. You have a definite minimum; and a definite maximum. Exceed that either way, and you will have problems. I do not have a F-M catalog; cannot look up to see if there are variations of the main bearing sets offered with different thrust surface OS's. Your MS guy has that responsibility; and his bearing supplier.....to know what the specs are of the bearings supplied.

This is just one of those irritating problems that can and does occur when doing a motor. Partly because different bearing makers have different tolerances that they use when building bearing shells; and/or different options offered. Familiarity with a particular product helps reduce the irritations.

example: if a MS uses ABC brand of bearings, and gets to know the specs and dimensions of that brand, ie, the thrust surfaces are at STD on all but special order bearings, then that MS gets familiar with, and machines things to those familiar specs and standards. You come along with a motor that they are not intimately familiar with, with bearings from a brand they use occasionally....and if that MS does not get fixated on making sure that things as they usually are with ABC brand, then there can be a fitment problem.

to summarize: the same application bearings, from two different bearing makers, are NOT exactly the same.

Add the following sand to the vaseline: in engine manufacturing, there are often instances where machining of the block is off ever so slightly. The engine maker compensates for that by using special sized shells, rather than remachining or discarding the block. Everything is okay for the life of the motor until....it is time to rebuild. Then that original discrepancy can become a major PITA to discover and correct.

ASSuming that bearing journal outer diameters [what the bearing shell outside diameters fit into with so many tenths of a thou interference for correct crush] are always the same is a bad thing to ASSume.

****

Take the block, crank, and bearings with when you go to the MS. Explain what you did and found; and let him check things out. And proceed from there.

TF

coldfusion21

12-20-2004, 12:56 AM

and john, if you need something as far as a person down in portland, just let me know. im out for "holiday break" and have plenty of free time...

The Aspirator

12-22-2004, 02:21 AM

Well yesterday I took everything into the machine shop and hung out there for a while chatting with the guy. He's been really nice and has been very helpful to me.

Right away he understood the problem with the thrust bearings and 2 seconds later he was on the phone with his bearing supplier. They informed him that 1st oversize main bearings come with thrust surfaces that are 6 thou oversized. They do not supply oversized bearings with standard thrust surfaces. So he told me that I had two options, send the crank out again and have them open up the thrust surfaces to achieve desired clearances, or machine about 6 thou off of the sides of the bearings. When he said this I cringed a little bit because of what you Stealth said above, that removing metal from the bearings is NOT the way to go...

But I told him this concern and he explained a few things to me. Basically it was his expert oppinion that removing material from the bearings was no biggie, and that he would feel comfortable doing it to any motor, even his own if it ever needed it. Thomas I really appreciate your experience and advice, but for this choice I'm going with my machine shop. He's the professional when it comes to engine assembly and probably has more experience than you. I value your oppinions but this time I'm trusting my MS.

So, he's going to throw the bearings on the mill, take a few thou off of each side, exactly enough to get me .002 thrust clearance. He was saying that it'd be better to take more off of the front side of the bearing, because this side sees the least ammount of action since the crank is constantly trying to push backwards... or something like that, we didn't talk about that aspect too much.

Also, (green manual gets here on thursday..) how are the main caps installed? Do the two lock tabs for the bearings meet on the same side or do you put them 180 from eachother?? I noticed an eyedrop shape on each cap, but wasn't sure if this was supposed to be an arrow pointing to the front or not...

Thanks guys!

John

stealthfti

12-22-2004, 11:53 AM

the 'pointy end' of the 'eyedrop shape' points to the front of the motor.

re the whole thrust bearing clearance issue and the "fix" chosen......I understand budgetary and time pressures. I hope it works out for you.

Do verify what the thrust clearance range is in the green manual. I may recall incorrectly, but two thou sounds on the tight side.

TF

The Aspirator

12-22-2004, 03:02 PM

Well I told him to give it two thou, and it's most likely done already. But when the green manual comes tomorrow I can easily go back and have him shave another thou off if need be.

So what was your concern with this method? Just curious. I realize that the bearings have different layers of material but don't quite know what they are or how they act/react. Would removing these first few layers cause the bearing to not spin as properly as a new bearing would?

Thanks,

John

stealthfti

12-22-2004, 08:20 PM

So what was your concern with this method? Just curious. I realize that the bearings have different layers of material but don't quite know what they are or how they act/react. Would removing these first few layers cause the bearing to not spin as properly as a new bearing would?

My concern? not much, really. I have only had to have three cranks submerge-welded over the years to repair thrust surface damage.....so I have had to research the subject a little bit cuz submerge-welding a crank is a major PITA; not too many places are actually competent to do the procedure; and the related downtime is as welcome as flatulence in a scuba tank.

For starters: the thrust flange surface itself....on a FedMoge, it is a "contoured flange' design:

www.federal-mogul.com/cda/content/front/0,2194,2442_897063_6837,00.html

that illustrates what the 'contour flange' is; and why it is.

The thrust bearings on the FedMoge's in a Volvo are the 'contoured flange'......look at the #5 main cap closely; you will see the contoured flange:

www.pbase.com/stealthfti/image/23855585

the 22 cent question is whether or not cutting down the contoured flange on the thrust flanges of the #5 main bearing for that B21FT motor is truly a "fix" or just a way to get around correcting the problem; ie, grinding the crank correctly.

If it works, you are fine. If it doesn't work, you smoke the rear thrust surface of the crank.

like I said: I hope that it does work out for you.

Will it work? dunno. I don't re-engineer bearings. Besides, it ain't mine; and it won't be me pi$$in' and moanin' if it doesn't work.

it is yours, and it's your choice. do it however you wanna. I've passed the not giving a rat's heinie point.

good luck

TF

JohnLane

12-23-2004, 12:27 PM

Screwing around with thrust surfaces huh?
AT YOUR OWN RISK.
It will work just fine until it does not at which point you have made a very expensive mess.
You will not know that you have a thrust problem until it is too late.

My motor would have thrust surfaces done to match bearings.

Hold your breath. It MAY work.

John Lane.

The Aspirator

12-23-2004, 01:44 PM

Aaarrrrrrrgh........... now I just don't know what to do. I really appreciate your guys' oppinions and experience, but yer confusin the heck out of me. :-P

Option #1:
Leave it as is, with the machined bearing and un-machined crank. Basically free except for the few bucks to machine the bearing, plus it's done already.

Option #2:
Have the crank sent out again, which might take a week or two and I'm not sure how much it'll cost. To have the whole thing ground it was about $85, so to do the thrust surfaces has got to be less than $40 even if they charge for shipping. Then I'd also need new bearings, which is another $85. Though with new bearings I'd now have a set of spares, which could come in handy some day!

I'm not trying to be an ultra cheapass here, but it's not even my money that I'm spending, my dad is funding this build for my brother. Plus it's not even my engine, it's for my brother. You're starting to convice me that it's worth the peace of mind to have it done correctly, regardless of the costs. I mean, everything else has so far been done to perfection basically..........

:e-shrug:

I'll think about it, tomorrow is christmas eve so I'll see my brother and dad then. We'll talk it over. It's not like I'm planning to have this engine running within the next week, hell I'll be exstatic if it's done by mid january at this pace.

Thanks for your input guys, and JL I appreciate you piping up with a second oppinion. No use mickey mousing it at this stage I guess...........

John

(Next time I build a motor, specify machined thrusts!!!!! Send the bearings with the crank and make sure they verify!)

JohnLane

12-23-2004, 02:12 PM

It will cost you how many dollars to save the $200 or so you are not sure that you wish to spend when it gets to come back apart with a DEAD crankshaft and engine block?

Sounds to me like that is not saving any money.
We are only SAVING money if it does not blow up in your face.

A couple hundred (hell.....even a thousand) dollars spent now that does not blow up is worth what?? The point is that you may not ever know cuz it does not die an early death.

You will remember how good it works a lot longer then you will remember what it cost to get it right.

We will all have to give you a bad time if it gets done on the cheap and we then hear a couple of years from now that it is being redone cuz you saved a couple hundred bucks now.

Merry Christmas.

JohnLane.

Captain Bondo

12-23-2004, 02:39 PM

Hmmm... I'm not sure I understand why any of this is costing you any money bro...
Maybe I'm naive but if I had something machined to "spec" and the MS assured me that they had all of the specs "in their computer" and that it would come out right because they knew what they were doing, there's no bloody way I'd be paying more because they only turned one surface and not the other. The MS should know better than to change the journal diameter for an undersize without verifying thrust imo.
When we have engines done for customers if it comes back wrong we send it back, simple as that. I know in your case it's a school project, but something to consider for the next one is that Lordco machine in Maple ridge only charges 75 bucks for bottom end assembly when you get the whole works done there as far as machine work and balancing.
For me 75 bucks to have someone do it who does it all day every day in a proper facility, and most importantly, with a warranty, makes it hard for me to even justify putting something together myself. We have had a lot of work done through them and it's all turned out beautifully.

245gti

12-23-2004, 10:30 PM

I agree with Kenny.... When I noticed the error in the MS ways, I took it back...they corrected it....no charge...

The Aspirator

12-24-2004, 04:41 AM

Well my brother picked up the crank and machined bearing today (I haven't mentioned any of this above discussion to him yet). It was no charge.

Sounds to me like I'd be stupid not to send the crank out and get it turned. So we will. I don't blame my machine shop, the crank shop he uses just doesn't turn the thrust surfaces unless requested, and the bearings just happen to come with OS thrusts. My MS didn't assemble my engine, so he didn't realize that there was an incompatability issue. I guess he should have done a dry fit to triple check the deck height, but maybe he did it all through measurements. I'm not sure, I'd have to ask him.

So this bearing set is screwed. First off trying to install those thrust bearings into the crank with an exact fit like before, seemed to have nicked off some bearing material, this worried me a little bit. Though now I'm sure that nick is machined off, we'll still get a new set of bearings anyways, this way we will have a spare set. And we'll have the crank turned. It's not a big deal really, even if it does cost some. It would be worth knowing that it's done properly, rather than that lingering feeling of doubt that would stick with all of us for a while. I'll see what kind of deal I can get on the bearings, hopefully at cost, same goes for the crank. It'll have to wait till monday before I can see the MS again, so if you guys have anything else to suggest, keep firing away :lol: .

John

own6volvos

12-24-2004, 04:59 AM

Which bearings are these that are 85 bucks a pop? Also... what material do volvo bearings use?

The Aspirator

12-24-2004, 12:13 PM

Federal Moguls. They're what Stealth uses and also what my machine shop sources for me. Sure I could go get some cheapies from FCP or something but I dunno.... They're $85 for a set of mains and like $27 for a set of rods.

stealthfti

12-28-2004, 02:12 AM

Kevin, if it is $85 CDN, then it is not outlandish pricewise. I use the FedMoges because my MS has the OD specs available for them so as to get the crush right. Probably are a bit more than other brands; but to get the crush right IS very important to me.

Dunno what the OE volvo bearings are made of. Possibly copper-lead, but I would suspect that volvo would be on the bandwagon to get away from that terrible lead stuff and go with an aluminum alloy. Not that there is anything wrong with the aluminum alloy; just that it is less expensive, and being NON-lead would make greenies smile.

Well, John....what's the story? did you get the green manual? have you read it?

and what did you decide to do re the crank and thrust clearance situation?

I hope that you are going to have the crank ground correctly to get the thrust clearance to fit the bearings; even though that will be an added expense.

Cappy and Dale have valid points; but I can see where your situation had its complications: people ASSumed things they should not have, and did not verify and comfirm those ASSumptions. The crank shop played it dumb: by defaulting to a no grind on thrusts policy, they were playing a 'cover-their-own-a$$' game; and not being protective of the customer's interests. They said nothing about that; their silence became an error of omission. It was a lazy-a$$ed cop out on their part. They get to be lazy: not grinding thrusts means that they don't HAVE to check or verify squat......and you get it in the shorts.

The trimming the thrust surfaces is a workaround that is better avoided: a false economy in my view.

Was I irritated that you were going with butchered thrusts? hell yes. after all the effort to get everything else just so, to go with the 'fix' was more like throwing some cow crap into a fine plate of fettucinni alfredo....a provocation that could merit a snootful of .45 ACP, or worse.

TF

JohnLane

12-28-2004, 02:27 PM

Was I irritated that you were going with butchered thrusts? hell yes. after all the effort to get everything else just so, to go with the 'fix' was more like throwing some cow crap into a fine plate of fettucinni alfredo....a provocation that could merit a snootful of .45 ACP, or worse.

TF

So Thomas.........How do you REALLY feel??

Happy New year.

JohnLane.

stealthfti

12-28-2004, 03:01 PM

JL, at that time, it was definitely in the 'or worse' category. [heeheeheehee]

Now...I no longer feel so provoked. If the correction is done properly, all will be right in the world. no prob

and a Happy New Year to you also, big guy.

I am ready for summer....

TF

The Aspirator

12-28-2004, 03:25 PM

All prices in this thread are in US dollars, so the main bearings cost $85us, whether I get them from my machine shop or from the local car store.

I did get the green manual but I've only flipped through it a bit, christmas has kept me very busy so we didn't even work on the car much. I'll be reading it alot this week.

So I went down to my parents house for Xmas and my brother showed me the bearing that was "properly machined". Well hell instead of trying to describe it let me just run to the car and get a picture of it.

See the nicks in the middle of the bearing below? Those are the result of trying to squeeze the bearing into the crank when we first got them, back when they didn't really fit. So I guess the bearing is pretty screwed just because of that. But this also shows you how the MS machined that side of the bearing down, and took off 6 thou material. It also left a semi-rough surface which in my view could cause mucho problems when it comes to actually rotating smoothly.

http://www.j2mediagroup.com/john/bad-bearing01.jpg

Holding these bearings in my hand makes it obvious that they should not be used in our "perfect" engine build up. They're half assed, and can't be as good as a new bearing. Well, the actual machining was done very professionally, but I mean the fact that the bearing was machined instead of doing the crank proper, that was being half assed.

http://www.j2mediagroup.com/john/bad-bearing02.jpg

Soooooooo, I've got the crank with me here in Vancouver (big city) so there's got to be a machine shop that can turn the thrust surfaces for me this week. I'll also get some new main bearings. It sounds like I should get the new thrust bearings before hand so that I can give them to the crank shop? Well that means I've gotta find some bearings first. There's no doubt, it NEEDS to be done properly, even if it does cost another hundred dollars.

I appreciate all you guys sticking with me here. Sorry I was kind of an ass before, for some reason I was in a rush to get a solution figured out, even though it's still not done. You were right, all of you, and I see that now. As I keep saying I'm still a rookie! ;-) Learning as much as I can during this whole process. THANKS!

OHHHHH one last question. Stealth earlier in this thread you mentioned that there were ways of doing up the thrust area with an eye towards a strong pressure plate and such. Well right now this car has a Clutchnet 6 puck clutch, and eventually will get a T5 tranny and upgraded clutch/PP. Since I'm still working on the thrust area, I'd like to know what else can be done here? If anything?

John

stealthfti

12-28-2004, 05:18 PM

John,

there is one thing that I do "TO" the thrust bearing. And that is actually a mod that I do to the journal part of the #5 main bearing so as to help ensure a good oil supply to the rear face of the thrust bearing.

Besides making sure that the thrust bearing is installed and aligned correctly [as explained in the linked article to follow], I also do the chamfering of the rear journal edge of the upper shell of the #5 main bearing. This is also illustrated and explained in the linked article.

Doing the chamfering, and DOING it carefully as described, does work. Read the article; print it out; and read it again....several times before you touch the #5 main bearing with a file. And know exactly where you are going to file.....BEFORE you file. It is not a huge gaping chasm that you are making. It is a small channel for the oil to be given direct access to the rear thrust surface of the crank and the thrust bearing surface.

This added direct channel, in conjunction with correct running clearances of the main bearing journal AND thrust surfaces, will do just about everything that you can do to protect the thrust bearing surface of the crank, and have a motor that runs and lives. That is not to say that the thrust bearing cannot be overloaded even if the added oil channel is done. Super heavy clutches CAN smoke the best of thrust bearings. The reasons for that are explained in the linked article.

People have, can, do, and will install pressure plates that overload the thrust bearing. They do things like that because a heavier PSI pressure plate is the "fix" to handle higher HP and torque. The heavier PSI pressure plate is the cheap way to correct the problem; not necessarily the better way. But that is another discussion. I bring it up only to make you aware of the risk.

here is the link:

www.atra-gears.com/crankshaft/

When you read the article, pay particular attention to the discussion of what loading [and why so] the thrust surface can handle. Notice also the advantage that the contoured flange thrust bearing design has.

Which is why I was less than thrilled to hear that milling away the contoured flange on the rear thrust was somehow a 'fix'....nah; not a 'fix' at all.

Talk to a crank shop. Once they understand the situation, they might work a deal on getting you the main bearing set AND grinding the thrusts correctly. You should have the FdeMoge part number for the main set that you have. So you know what you need; and so will they.

AND, hopefuly, you will find someone competent and conscientious enough to do the damn job right.

[long rant of mucho cussing, swearing, and disparaging the ancestors, relatives and progeny of certain persons who fraudulently claim attainment of journeyman machinist status deleted]

TF

JohnLane

12-28-2004, 05:42 PM

John,

AND, hopefuly, you will find someone competent and conscientious enough to do the damn job right.

[long rant of mucho cussing, swearing, and disparaging the ancestors, relatives and progeny of certain persons who fraudulently claim attainment of journeyman machinist status deleted]

TF

Competent and conscientious?? I wish you luck. If you can find the two of those together please let me know as I am in need of both in a machinist.

As for the long rant......Thanks for the deletion Thomas. I have very similar feelings for most 'Journeyman Machinists' as well as 'Certified Public Accountants.'

JohnLane

The Aspirator

12-28-2004, 05:46 PM

Wonderful! I'll give that article a good read. Also I've been flipping through this green manual, this thing rocks! It's got all the specs you'd ever want.

About the thrusts, what if I could find a bearing that did NOT have oversized thrusts, but stock sized thrusts. Then would it be OKAY to leave the crank as is and not machine it? This is not the way to achieve perfect thrust clearance, but it should be damn close enough eh? I was just thinking that IPD sells the bearings I need for $65us, but I'll have to double check the brand and thrust sizes before I order. This would eliminate the need to find a crank shop locally, plus I've gotta order from IPD anyways......

When you do a crank, do you always grind the thrusts and use OS bearings? Or do ya leave the thrusts on the crank alone and get non-OS thrust bearings?

Thanks,

John

stealthfti

12-28-2004, 06:41 PM

JL, I have both in the guys at my MS; which is why I drive 3 hrs one way to take stuff there. For you that would be in the neighborhood of at least a 36 hr drive...flyin' low.

John, when I do a teardown, I check things out to know forensically what has gone on; and to give myself an idea of what I may be needing to have done. BUT, I take the pieces parts to my MS, have them tank, mag, and check everything out. They formulate their recommendations based on what they find, and on what we are building for. Whether or not something gets ground or not is not decided until my guys check it out. If there is even half a question about something, it gets 'done'.

IIRC, you did not have your block align-honed. Therefore, you could get a main bearing set that comes with STD thrusts. That is a viable alternative. Find out if such a main set is available. IPD might know what the specs are on their sets; or they should tell you who to talk to to find out. I would think that such info would be a good thing for their people to know....if they don't already know it.

Re the whole main bearing/line honing area: I am at the point that I prefer to have it done as a standard part of the work my MS guys do on my motors. It eliminates questions and problems. And as I said some time earlier in this topic: the center of the universe is the crankshaft, and how well it rotates. They still check things out as a matter of course, and as a matter of forensic analysis; but they know why I like things right and tight. And they LOVE it to be able to do it right and tight: no just-enough-to-get-by. I let them do it the way they know to be right; and we are all happy: them, me, and the motor's owner. We have line honed the mains without grinding the crank; it depends on what the crank needs.

[on a sidenote, they won't do anything more than tank and mag without the green manual binder. That is one thing they ask for when I bring the pieces parts in; and I had better have it with. cuz it's either a six hr drive or Fedex overnight if I forget the binder.]

So, look into the bearings with STD thrusts. That very well could be the solution to the situation.

TF

The Aspirator

12-28-2004, 07:24 PM

We did not get the mains align-honed, the MS measured it and said it wasn't necessary. I just e-mailed IPD for the specs of their bearings, so we'll see what they come up with. I agree, if they don't already know if the thrust surfaces are OS or not, it would be good info for them to keep around.

About this green manual, the specs in here about the thrust clearances are kinda confusing. Let me type them out to show what I'm talking about:

(Turns out you should NOT trust the inch conversions in the green manual, look at post #177 for the corrections)

Crankshaft mm (inch)

Max. out-of-true.................................... ....0.05 (0.0020)
Crankshaft, axial clearance, MAX............... ....0.25 (.0098)
............Radial clearance (main bearings).... ....0.028-0.083 (0.0011-0.0033)
Big-end bearings, axial clearance............... ....0.15-0.35 (0.0059-0.0138)
............Radial clearance......................... ....0.024-0.070 (0.0009-0.0028)

Main bearing journals mm (inch)

Out of round, max................................... ...0.07 (0.0028)
Taper, max............................................ ...0.05 (0.0020)
Diameter, standard.................................. ..63.451-63.464 (2.5000-2.5005)
............undersize 1................................ ..63.197-63.210 (2.4900-2.4905)
............undersize 2................................ ..62.943-62.956 (2.4800-2.4805)
Width on crankshaft for flange bearing shell,
............standard.............................. ..... ...38.960-39.000 (1.5350-1.5366)
............oversize 1................................. ...39.061-39.101 (1.5390-1.5406)
............oversize 2................................. ...39.163-39.203 (1.5430-1.5446)

What specifically is axial clearance? The max is 9.8 thou, is this the max thrust clearance?

The crankshaft radial clearance is the bearing oil clearance right? The stuff that is measured with plastigauge? So 2 thou would be right in the middle.

The big end axial clearance, is that the side to side clearance between each main cap and the crank? And what is the radial clearance here mean? Just too many numbers, it's hard for me to find a purpose for them all!

John

*EDIT*
looking at those numbers, exactly what side to side thrust clearance am I aiming for?

stealthfti

12-28-2004, 09:32 PM

John,

first thing: do NOT trust the inch conversions in the green manuals: they are the ones in parentheses. The metric dimensions can be relied on, but somebody over there is unable to convert from metric to american. I ALWAYS do the conversion from metric to inch myownself.

In the "CRANKSHAFT mm [inch] section:

crankshaft 'axial' clearance is the 'thrust' clearance: the front to rear movement of the crank in the block. Your max thrust clearance is 9.8 thou. [and the only place that you worry about that is at #5]

crankshaft 'radial' clearance is the main bearing clearance you verify with plastigage.

And your getting two thou on the plastigage IS just about in the middle of allowable....and that is very good.

*******

that "big end bearings, axial clearance" that you list is the back and forth movement of the connecting rod on the crank, when it is installed in the engine. The "big end" terminology is referring to the "big end" of the connecting rod: the end that has the BIG hole in it.

AND: the side to side 'axial' clearance you want on each rod is 5.9 thou to 13.8 thou. That gets checked with feeler gages.

the "big end bearings, radial clearance" is the rod bearing clearance that you verify with the plastigage.

Think of "axial" as being related to the axis, or centerline of the crankshaft. "Axial" things would be things that go back and forth on that centerline.

Think of "radial" as being related to 'radius' or 'radiating out from the centerline' of the crank. Kinda like the spokes of a bike wheel radiating out from the hub.

In the MAIN BEARING JOURNALS mm [inch] section:

the 'out of round' and 'taper' data refer to the crankshaft journals themselves. They can wear unevenly; and the journals can get 'out of round' and they get become 'tapered'. Grinding the journals takes care of that problem.

The "diameter" section data refers to the size the journals are to be when at STD size and what the actual oversize dimensions are to be after grinding.

That last section on there, the "width on crankshaft for flange bearing shell" is referring to the #5 main journal on the crankshaft: where the #5 main bearing fits. You checked yours with your digital caliper. The "flange bearing shell" IS the #5 main bearing....the two halves of the bearing have 'flanges'...the thrust bearing flanges.

That section shows that Volvo #5 main bearing goes four thou OS from STD to 1st OS; and another four thou OS in the 2nd OS bearing.

Meaning of that: if you were to buy Volvo main bearings for 1st OS, then you would need to grind the crank thrust surfaces a total of four thou OS....ie, two thou on each side.

Further meaning of that: different bearing makers do things differently. Volvo adds four thou to the thrust with each OS. FedMoge adds six thou to their 1st OS bearing kit. And I do not know what other bearing makers do.

****

Read through the manual to get familiar with the terminology used. And reading will help you see what the measurements mean, and how they apply.

TF

stealthfti

12-29-2004, 04:04 PM

John,

I was doing some looking around. And I found out a thing or two.

Clevite has OS main sets for your motor; and the thrusts are like the Volvo sets: with 1st OS, the thrusts are four thou OS; and with 2nd OS, the thrusts are eight thou OS.

If you were to go to this ebaymotors auction: #7932878046, you can find a set of the Clevites for $40. It's Northern Auto Parts ebaystore. They also have a set of Clevites in 2nd OS.

Check that out. It doesn't help you to not have to get the thrusts ground, but it helps on the $$ for a main set.

It may be a bad situation; but perhaps something can be worked out with the crank shop that did the original job. Or maybe that is not a can of worms that you want to open.

There is one more complicating factor that you might be confronted with. A MS that you take the crank to to get the thrusts ground the two thou more on each face might say that they "can't" do the thrusts without doing the journals. There is some validity to that; but it is kind of a BS thing. A good machinist 'could' and 'can' reface the thrusts without touching the journals. It would take a few minutes more effort and carefulness on his part; but it is definitely doable. He would have to set it up to do that operation; but it can be done. It requires a desire to do a job to help somebody out of a jam and not slip him the green weenie.

IF you cannot find a MS that will reface the thrusts without touching the journals, then get the 2nd OS main set and have the work done. The Clevites are the same specs as Volvo bearings; and you have the Volvo specs for the dimensions to grind to.

HTH

TF

The Aspirator

12-29-2004, 06:32 PM

Much appreciated!! I was wondering about those clevites, cause my local NAPA could get them for me. Good to know that they're 4thou oversized, as opposed to the FedMog's which are 6thou.

So the MAX thrust clearance is 9.8 thou, but what is recommended? The Green manual only says max. I guess just buy the four thou OS bearings and grind the crank 2 thou on each side, then live with the resulting clearance cause it should be right.

It looks like it's going to be really tough/impossible to find some bearings with STD thrusts, so it looks like the crank has to be machined.
It may be a bad situation; but perhaps something can be worked out with the crank shop that did the original job. Or maybe that is not a can of worms that you want to open.
You pretty much hit the nail on the head. Though I didn't realize it would be sort of a pain for any crank shop to grind just the thrusts, so I may have to go with the one that did the original work. Since they did it to begin with, I would hope they'd be willing to do the thrusts.

We'll see what happens. I've got more important things to take care of in the next few days, so this may get put off. I have to keep reminding myself that this isn't MY engine, it's me being waaaaaaay too nice to my brother, going out on a limb for him, and working my butt off for his project. :roll:

stealthfti

12-29-2004, 07:12 PM

John,

the range of thrust on the 230s is three thou to ten thou. I'd shoot for four thou, that ends up as two thou each side. And that works. Do the chamfering on the one part of the upper shell to assist in good oiling to the rear thrust face, and you'll be good to go.

If the MS finds that they need to go six thou total, you are still good. I like to be under six thou [four thou is my targeted clearance] when possible; but that is just a personal preference.

And do go over the oil passages/junctions in the block to ensure the volume is good.

TF

stealthfti

12-30-2004, 03:01 PM

John,

when you take the crank in, the measurements that you have listed in the "width on crankshaft for flange bearing shell" are the ones to use for the MS to grind to.

Having the bearing set with you when you take the crank in would probably be a good idea. Having the bearing set with would enable the MS to measure the thrust flanges to verify the exact dimensions on the bearings; and enable them to determine just how much to grind to get to four thou total thrust clearance.

If you were to not have the bearing set with, then the specs listed would be the default value for the MS to grind to.

Earlier, you said that you measured the thrust faces and found the dimension to be 1.535in. That is at STD; but on the wide side of the STD spec. If you do the metric to inch conversion yourself, you will see that the STD thrust dimension is 1.5338in-1.5354in; median being 1.534in. The 1st OS thrust dimension is 1.5378in-1.539in; median is 1.538in....showing that the difference is four thou.

Like I said before, you cannot trust the inch conversion values listed in the green manuals. You have to do the conversion yourownself.

The thrusts on your crank are at the max for STD; making them close, but not close enough for the 1st OS bearings. The amount of grinding will be only a couple of thou; but those are important thou's to remove.

Another way to explain it: if you have the MS grind the thrusts to 1.538in, then you should be fine.

HTH

TF

The Aspirator

12-30-2004, 06:41 PM

Excellent. I just converted all measurements from page 7 (crankshaft assembly) and noticed that all the small conversions are accurate, but it's the larger conversions above 25mm that things get funky. Seem to be off by about 2 thou, which can mean alot to you an I!!

CORRECT CRANKSHAFT MEASUREMENTS IN INCHES (green manual wrong #'s):
Diameter, standard.................................. ..2.4981-2.4986 (2.5000-2.5005)
............undersize 1................................ ..2.4881-2.4886 (2.4900-2.4905)
............undersize 2................................ ..2.4781-2.4786 (2.4800-2.4805)
Width on crankshaft for flange bearing shell,
............standard.............................. .... ...1.5339-1.5354 (1.5350-1.5366)
............oversize 1................................. ...1.5378-1.5394 (1.5390-1.5406)
............oversize 2................................. ...1.5419-1.5434 (1.5430-1.5446)

The Aspirator

12-30-2004, 07:47 PM

Well I think we've confirmed that Federal Mogul likes to OS the thrusts .006", where Clevites and Volvo bearings are .004"....... correct? I think I'll get some Clevites from Napa this week. If I have the bearings before I find a crank shop, then they'll obviously go with the crank. But I'm thinking we can trust the green manual specs if needed.

Earlier, you said that you measured the thrust faces and found the dimension to be 1.535in. That is at STD; but on the wide side of the STD spec. If you do the metric to inch conversion yourself, you will see that the STD thrust dimension is 1.5338in-1.5354in; median being 1.534in. The 1st OS thrust dimension is 1.5378in-1.539in; median is 1.538in....showing that the difference is four thou.
Now by median, do you mean the average? Cause if so you're kinda off....
-Standard being 1.5339-1.5354, average (add em up, divide by two) is 1.53465. So yes I am close to the wide specs with my measurement of 1.535".
-First OS being 1.5378-1.5394, average is 1.5386.

We're aiming for exactly in the middle of the specs?? (in a perfect world...) Orrr, I guess it depends on exactly what the new bearing measures out to be, in order to get 4 thou thrust clearance.

John

stealthfti

12-30-2004, 09:12 PM

John,

yes, it looks like the FedMoge's go six thou on the thrusts for 1st OS; probably to do with the contoured flange. They may have figured the contoured flanges needed the extra two thou room for the contoured flange material to actually make those ramps; to then put that info in the catalog for the crank guy to see, read, and account for; and let the MS guy go with it, and set the thrust clearance to what he wants for that motor. Perhaps the error [on FedMoge's part] is in ASSuming that MS people are professional enough to actually verify things. Some are; some are not.

By 'median', I was not being abso-**-lutely precise. The 1.534in and 1.538in are just about the middle of the allowables. I used those numbers to simplfy the numbers and to show the four thou difference from STD to 1st OS. I probably would have done better by saying the 1.534in and 1.538in numbers were the 'approximate middles, rounded to the nearest whole thou, for illustration purposes'. I wasn't trying to confuse you.

It will be good that you have the bearing set with when you go to the MS. They can mike the crank thrust faces and the new bearing shells and look at the specs....and determine just how much needs to be dusted off the faces to get you to the four thou thrust clearance. Think of it more like "shooting for four thou thrust clearance, plus or minus a half thou". And if you are within a half thou, then you are fine and good to go.

Have a Happy New Year, John

later,

TF

The Aspirator

12-31-2004, 12:56 AM

Thanks Thomas, happy new years to you too! I'm getting my brother to buy some new main bearings tomorrow, I'm thinkin that NAPA will have them in by monday, then we'll take the crank back to my MS and have him send it out with the new mains and a peice of paper with my specs on it ;-) .

This weekend I'm finishing up the head, then I'll give it to my MS to have it decked and the new guides installed. After we get all that back, it's time to start assembly! The crank and head have been the stumbling points that have held us back lately, but they're both very close.
Thanks for everyone's help so far! THIS THREAD ROCKS :cheers:

John

The Aspirator

01-01-2005, 08:04 PM

You want the second ring gap to be bigger than on the top compression ring.

So dont make it to small on the second ring. Very important.

Sorry for the bad english

/AndreasRing gap is VERY important. The top ring should be gapped to the wide side of specs; I go to the max gap on top rings. The second ring should be in the middle of gap specs. Th oil ring in the middle as well. I will take ten thou too much ring gap over one thou too little ring gap any day. The top ring sees the most heat; give it the extra clearance in the end gap so that it cannot butt and seize. And that is especially true in a boost motor.
Gapping the rings today, so what to do? I really respect Andreas' suggestions, so maybe I should go wide on the middle ring too? Here are the Green Manual specs (yes I verified the inch conversions)

Upper compression ring.............. 0.35-0.65 (0.014-0.026 in)
Lower compression ring...............0.35-0.55 (0.014-0.022 in)
Oil scraper ring..........................0.25-0.60 (0.010-0.024 in)

So I'll gap the bottom ones to the middle of the specs (0.017"). Then the top ones to .026", then I'll wait for confirmation on the middle ones.....? Well, today I'll at least take them out to the middle of the specs.

The Aspirator

01-02-2005, 04:30 AM

Also the green manual says (and shows a picture) that you're supposed to insert each ring into the groove and use a feeler gauge to measure the clearance on top of it. The specs are something like .0016"-.0026, but I can't fit my .0015" feeler in there, it's too tight. When I put the end of the rings into their grooves, I can wiggle them up and down a bit... so it's not like they're super tight in the grooves.

Maybe I'll take the pistons and rings with me to the machine shop when I take the crank back on monday, see what he says.

Matt Dupuis

01-02-2005, 11:19 AM

Gas will blow past the rings no matter what. It's not a tight seal (unless you get Total Seal rings made up for you) so there will always be some blowing past the rings. The more end gap, the more you're losing to the crankcase. Of course, in a turbocharged motor, extreme heat will make the rings grow and the gaps shrink, and the last thing you want is for them to butt together.

The idea of the wide second ring gap is to relieve pressure from underneath the top ring as quickly as possible. If you let pressure past the top ring and it's contained by the bottom ring, the top ring stops sealing, and it's also got more of a chance to flutter at high speeds. However, if you've got a REALLY large gap on the top ring, you need the bottom ring to be fairly tight so that you contain SOME pressure in the combustion chamber.

FYI, one of the fads in pro stock is to use only one thin, low tension ring for pressure containment, and use a vacuum pump to keep the ring stuck hard to the bottom of the ring gap for maximum seal. Low frictional losses and better sealing, even after the power loss of the vacuum pump is factored in, net up to some big power gains, but the rings only last a weekend or two.

Using OEM specs on an aftermarket ring is a risky proposition, in my opinion. Ask the ring manufacturer what they recommend on a turbocharged motor, and be realistic about your requirements. Different alloys expand at different rates, and though you're pumping more heat into this engine than the factory intended, you've got the luxury of hand-fitting each ring rather than trying to keep every ring in a parts bin within a range of sizes. I would have also asked the ring manufacturer what finish they wanted to see on the bores, and what break-in procedure they'd recommend, but that's me.

stealthfti

01-02-2005, 02:10 PM

John,

re ring side clearances: new rings going into pistons with ring grooves in excellent condition will be snug enough that trying to slide a one an a half thou feeler gage in there probably won't go. If the ring fits in there, is free to rotate, and has a [almost barely] discernable wiggle [showing that it is not binding or sticking], then you should be fine. What I would be more concerned about would be if I could slide a three thou feeler gage in there. Good pistons and new rings will have a good close ring side clearance; it's the too much side clearance to worry about.

re the ring end gaps: my gap recommendations of max spec end gap for top ring and middle gap spec for second ring are from the 'avoiding end butting problems' as Matt mentioned. A boost motor will put more heat into the ringland area of the piston, and therefore into the top ring. Accomodating that reality is why I go for top ring end gap at the max side of specs. The second ring will not see the heat that the top ring does. It will see some; but much less. I go middle of spec gap on that one.

I would agree with Matt: find out what the ring mfr recommends as side and end gaps on their rings in a boosted motor. You do have a bit of a different critter here. You're using NA reinforced cast pistons in a boost motor [that was OE supplied with a higher grade reinforced cast piston]. It is possible that the ring mfr might have ring clearance specs for the NA B21, and different specs for a B21FT. Piston differences as well as use differences [NA vs boosted] may be accounted for by the ring mfr. But then again, they may give the same specs for both. You have to ask.

which way to go....wide/middle or wide/wider....depends. There has probably been a million pages written on ring gaps, and why a particular arrangement is better than others etc. I would like to hear more re the wide/wider theory as to why that is better. If you want to go wide/wider, okay. I don't see that that would necessarily hurt things. Why I say that is because I use SBC gap clocking....top and oil gaps on non thrust side; second gap on thrust side....180 degrees apart. That works for me and mine. I think that wide/wider would not be some terrible thing to do because the gap clocking that I use would compensate for the wide/wider. But I would like to hear more. I'll stay with wide/middle until I hear otherwise.

As I said, there has been lots and lots written on the subjects; to the point that it can be argued to death: and it often is. So you read lots and lots, consider the theories and applications....and make a choice.

I am not going to tell you that you just absolutely gotta do the gaps a certain way or else. The main concern I worry about is avoiding end butt. To ameliorate any supposedly bad thing about going with the wider gaps that I use, I clock my rings based on the SBC clocking chart. Nothing magical or omniscient about it: I seek to avoid a particular problem [the end butting], and use another method [SBC clocking] to minimize any negative side effects of the first method [the wide/middle gaps]. For me, those two methods work well together.

Bottom line: I don't see a problem with going either wide/middle or wide/wider. For all the reasons for which I could write about three thousand pages to explain [but ain't gonna], I say that either is a viable choice. Choose one, and do it.

TF

The Aspirator

01-06-2005, 02:15 AM

Thanks guys. When I take a ring in one hand and a piston in the other, the rings are free to rotate in the grooves, there is no binding whatsoever, and can wiggle just enough to notice it. Cool so no problems there.

I already filed all the top rings to .025", my feeler gauge set has a .025 and a .028, so 25 it was.

Next is the middle rings. From all that I've read I think I'll go to about .022 ish and use the SBC clocking. It's the max gap that the Green manual suggests, but from what I've read and what Andreas suggested it sounds like a good thing to do.

And for the oil ring. The box came with that wavy oil ring, then 8 really thin spacer rings. What are the spacers for? I think I could only fit the wavy ring in the gap, with no room for any spacers. This kool?

Lastly, thank GOODNESS, my brother went to NAPA the other day and chatted the guy up for a while. He told Erik that he didn't have any main bearings in stock, nor could he find any locally. BUT he promised that he'll call around to various machine shops in Seattle and such looking for the perfect set. He called today and said he found them! 1st undersized, STD thrusts!!!!!!!!! Ohh baby. No need to touch the crank again. I'm not sure exactly what thrust clearances we'll end up with, but it should be roughly close. And I'm not sure what brand of bearings they ended up finding, but they'll be here tomorrow. That means we can assemble the shortblock this weekend!

Hummm, I've still gotta finish porting those chambers...... I've got 3 chambers up to 57cc and I can't imagine how people are getting up to 60cc!?? Then it needs to be decked and have the guides replaced, but that only takes a day or two at the machine shop.

Erik got the pre-80s dash installed so the interior is done, w00t. I welded him a short throw shifter. So the engine is pretty much the last thing to work on, can't wait to get done with it!

Matt Dupuis

01-06-2005, 09:38 AM

Your oil rings are the (in my opinion) superior 3 piece design. First you install the wavy piece in the groove. Then you install the thin lower ring and the thin upper ring (both the same) in between the wavy spacer and the ring lands.

edit - http://www.hastingsmfg.com/Service%20Tips/oil_ring_groove_depths.htm

When you're filing your rings, make sure you're deburring everything!!! Very carefully!!!

The Aspirator

01-06-2005, 02:04 PM

Ohh yes, there won't be a burr in sight, I've been very careful.

Seems like the hastings site is down right now but I'll check it out later. Though when I was test fitting the rings, there wasn't room for any spacers above or below the oil ring :e-shrug: . I'll try it again this weekend, but is it okay if I have to use just the oil ring with no spacers?

John

Matt Dupuis

01-06-2005, 02:38 PM

Absolutely not. You'll see how it's assembled when the website is back up. The rings go on after you install the spreader. The "spacers" as you're calling them are the actual oil rings, and the spreader is the wavy piece that fits in between and behind the rings.

The Aspirator

01-06-2005, 02:52 PM

Website is back. Thanks for that link!

OHHHHHHhhhhhhh, now I get it. Yeah that should work. When I was messing with it before, I was trying to squeeze the oil rings (spacer) directly above the spreader, not on the outer edge of it like in this picture. So it should work perfectly.
http://www.hastingsmfg.com/Service%20Tips/images/p71.gif

But I'll make sure to confirm that the oil rings don't stick out past the grooves.

Now since there are two oil rings for each piston, do you place the gap for each one on the same side? IE directly above one another and on the non-thrust side? That's what it sounds like, else one of you would have mentioned it already.

Thanks again!

stealthfti

01-06-2005, 04:03 PM

John,

find an illustration of the SBC ring gap clocking. It will show where to clock the spacer gap, and the gaps of the two scraper rings. Hint: the gaps for each of the three parts of the three piece oil ring are clocked at different positions.

When you find the clocking illustration, you should also see the procedure to actually install the spacer/tensioner, and the two scraper rings on each piston. It is not difficult; but it does take a certain way to do it. Since the three piece oil ring is mostly an american approach, finding illustrated procedures on assembly onto the piston should not be difficult. Primarily it is one of patience and care, followed by patience and dexterity: you are trying to fit things together that, when fitted together, are under some tension outward. Once you do it on one piston, you will see exactly what I mean.

While installing the spacer/tensioner, and then each of the scrapers into their location, just take your time. And do not force things. You should not have to force things.

The ring set you have are Hastings, IIRC. Any of the ring makers probably have illustrated instructions for installation on their websites, because most or all offer three piece oil rings on many applications.

TF

stealthfti

01-07-2005, 01:17 AM

John,

once you get comfortable with the ring install, then you can get ready to lay in the crank.

Hopefully, you have gone over the oil passages in the block to make sure there are no constrictions to good flow.

A bit of a review:

clean and dry crank journals; clean and dry main saddles in the block; clean and dry main caps.

install the upper shells in the block.

lay in crankshaft carefully.

plastigage each main bearing individually. You can start at either end; I normally do #5 first, so I can check the thrust and know that that is okay right away.

the threads on the main cap bolts are to be LIGHTLY oiled...not dripping in the stuff. I'll take the two bolts for a cap, dip one about a third of the threads into clean oil, and roll the oil from those threads to the threads of the other bolt. That way the threads are oiled, but no excess.

once all the mains have been plastigaged and the thrust clearance measured, remove the crank and clean the plastigage residue off the journals and the bearings.

now the intermediate shaft goes in.

at this point is when you do the chamfer modification to the upper shell of #5 main bearing. Refer to the link I posted earlier. I put up an image on Pbase to make sure you know where it is that you are going to have that chamfer:

www.pbase.com/stealthfti/image/38360942

once the chamfering is done on the #5 upper shell, you can reinstall that shell and prepare for crankshaft install. This is when you lube the bearing shells that are installed in the block saddles, the bearing surfaces of the lower shells in the main caps, and the main journals of the crank.

install the crank, put the main caps in place, and install the lightly oiled bolts....finger snug.

refer back to the article on thrust bearings, and follw the procedure to align the thrust bearing surfaces to the rear thrust surface of the crank.

once the thrusts are aligned, you can complete the torqueing down of the main bolts.

then it is time for some pistons and rods.

two ways to do this:

...do a piston install without rings to do a rod bearing/side clearance check; remove the pistons; install rings and do a final install.

...or install the rings and do the install once. In that case, oil and moly lube the rings and skirts before applying the ring compressor. That can be a bit messy and slippery [that's kinda the point]; but I do not install pistons with just oil; I like some moly grease in there on the rings and on the skirts.

either way, you will be plastigaging each rod bearing; and checking the axial clearance. That's two separate checks; can't do both with the plastigage in there: you will smear the plastigage. And again for plastigaging: clean and dry; bolt threads only are oiled.

the green manual lays out the procedure. The main concern is to correctly clock the ring gaps as you install the ring compressor, and then to install the piston into the bore without breaking any rings. Do not forget the protective sleeves on the rod bolts. You do not want to score the journals on the crank as you install the pistons.....very bad thing to do. And I would wait until the piston is in the cylinder before I would install the upper rod bearing shell. They have a tendency to pop out when you are tapping the piston in.

Take your time. Make sure the clearances are right.

TF

The Aspirator

01-07-2005, 05:26 PM

Thanks for all those tips! I'll be getting to that stuff this weekend.

And for the life of me I can barely find anything through google about clocking chevy rings. All I've read is 180 like you mentioned, and several websites say that clocking doesn't matter worth sh*t because the rings rotate in the groves during operation..... :e-shrug: . Do you have any images for me, or more specifically, just let me know how to clock the oil rings?

Okay, what I did just read is that the oil tensioner (wavy ring) has ends that should NOT overlap, but should come together smoothly. And that the gap for each scraper should be 1/3 rotation away from the tensioner gap. Is this right? So I would gap the top ring and the tensioner on the non-thrust side (with one oil scraper at 120* and the other at 240*), and the middle ring at 180*. Roight? No? Maybe? I've got more searching to do, just don't have time right now.

John

*edit* One last note:
http://www.supras.nl/view.php?page=maintenanceBlock.htm
When they are all in place put the gap between the two compression rings 180 degrees of each other. The two gaps of the rings holding the oil ring must go 180 degrees and 90 degrees with the compression ring gaps.

stealthfti

01-08-2005, 02:41 AM

John,

I put up an image of a B21F piston showing the ring gap clocking:

www.pbase.com/stealthfti/image/38397562

That shows where to clock the ring end gaps.

Re the end gap clocking controversy: I do not know an engine builder who considers ring end gap clocking to be irrelevant or unimportant. Every professional builder I know does concern himself with where the end gaps are clocked at.

It does make a difference.

I won't waste my time or breath arguing the merits of the 'end gap clocking is unimportant' debate. Because it is possible for the rings to walk...if you have ring grooves that were scraped to 3rd OS, and cylinder bores that are egged and tapered like a cheap cigar sombody sat on.....then, yeah: them rings can walk.

****

Yes, the spacer ends are to be butted against each other; not overlapped. The butting of the spacer ends is part of the tensioning job that the spacer does on the scrapers, besides the spacing apart job.

TF

The Aspirator

01-08-2005, 03:18 AM

Thanks Tom. I'm not here to argue any points or thoughts, because I don't have enough experience to back up anything! So I'll just go with what y'all suggest ;-) . Thanks for the commentary about the clocking.

One last, albeit dumb question.... All this time I thought I knew (guessed) what the "thrust" side of the piston was, but I think I'm wrong. Here I thought you were reffering to the crank, like the thrust bearing being at the back of the engine, so that's the thrust side you're talkin about. Wrong eh? So the thrust side of a piston is on the intake side of the engine? What makes it so? Does it have to do with the rotation of the crank maybe? Like it always goes up and to that side, so that's the thrust side? I dunno, maybe I'm talking gibberish, but it proves that I shouldn't assume things anymore :-P .

John

Matt Dupuis

01-08-2005, 10:48 AM

The "thrust" side of the piston/cylinder are the ones that the connecting rod pushes against. Because the rod is angled to one side or the other almost everywhere in the stroke, the piston is being forced into the side of the cylinder in one of two directions. Those are the thrust sides - the deepest part of the skirt, 90* away from the pin.

stealthfti

01-08-2005, 04:35 PM

John,

to add to Matt's explanation: yes, the thrust side of the piston is on the intake side of the motor. But some clarification is in order. As Matt said, the rods push the pistons into the cylinder walls going up or going down.

When the intake side is referred to as the thrust side, it would be more accurate to call that the major thrust side, and the oil filter side of the motor as the minor thrust side: because of the greater amount of sideways forces exerted on the rods and pistons during the power stroke. The sideways forces applied during the exhaust or compression strokes, on the oil filter side of the bores, is not anywhere near as great. But there is some there during those strokes.

In efforts to reduce the sideways pressures, and other things, is where you find the concerns over rod/stroke ratio, rod angularity, and the whole sub-universe of offset wrist pins. I would say that those subjects are worthy of further research and analysis when you have the time to just sit and read and think it through. The B21/B23 motors have a rod/stroke ratio of 1.8:1; which is more that adequate and sufficient; so you don't have to worry about that.

You are right in seeing that the thrust has something to do with the direction of crankshaft rotation: the crank rotates towards the intake side of the motor; therefore the intake side is the side that sees the major thrust sideways loads [on the power stroke]....and now you know what the thrust side is...good.

TF

Morten VJ

01-08-2005, 05:06 PM

Matt Dupuis

01-08-2005, 07:44 PM

Agreed with Morten - the crankshaft turns counterclockwise when viewed from the front, so when the pistons are in the power stroke, the big end of the rods are to the right of the axis of the bore, pushing the pistons into the oil filter side of the cylinders.

stealthfti

01-08-2005, 09:42 PM

TF
This dosent add up in my book.
The engine is cantet to the left, and it's rotating clock wise when you are looking from the front of the car.
When the piston is going down on the powerstroke it would seem to me that the exhaust side would be the major trust side of the piston.
-x top of the bore

--x crankshaft centerline

Morten

I can understand why you think that what I said does not add up. You are not alone.

But, a lot of people view it as being that the major thrust side of the piston is in the side of the piston that is on the direction of rotation. So much so, that some piston makers build the piston to have a thicker skirt on that side.

If you were to research the subject of offset wrist pins, you will find a considerable number of people who offer pistons with wrist pins offset to the minor thrust side [which would be the oil filter side of the redblock]. But most of the offset wrist pin pistons offered are offset towards the direction of the rotation [which on the redblock is the intake manifold side].

Volvo offset the wrist pins in the B23FT towards the major thrust side [the intake side; AKA the LEFT side of the engine].

****

SIDENOTE: to remove confusion. What is left or right on a vehicle is determined by the perspective of sitting in a front seat looking forward to the front of the vehicle: that which is to the left of that seated viewpoint is on the LEFT side of the vehicle. Americans drive while seated in the LEFT front seat [usually]. Our pals in the UK drive from the RIGHT front seat [usually].

When you are standing at the front of the vehicle, and looking into the engine bay while leaning over the front bumper, the intake manifold on the redblock is still on the left side of the motor; the oil filter mounting boss is on the right side of the motor.

Direction of crankshaft rotation: whether you are standing at the front of the car and looking in over the front bumper and radiator and seeing the engine crankshaft rotating clockwise at idle; or sitting in the driver's seat and looking out through the windshield and seeing the clutch type fan [that is mounted on the water pump] rotate counter-clockwise at idle; the crankshaft is still rotating towards the left side of the vehicle.

****

back to thrust:

As I said earlier, the major thrust on the piston skirts during the power stroke is on the side of the piston that is in the direction of crankshaft rotation. There is some thrust sideways loads on the other skirt. Let me clarify: this is my viewpoint.

Because there are considerable differences in opinion as to which side is the major thrust side, that is why there are pistons available with the wrist pins offset on either side: you can have your choice to tickle your fancy.

AND, because of the differences in opinion, most pistons are made and offered with the wrist pins centered.

Think of the major thrust side as being on whichever side you believe it to be. And do with that conclusion whatever you choose to: buy pistons with the wrist pins offset on the side that you consider the major thrust side, and enjoy. Clock your ring end gaps accordingly. no problemo.

Go through the literature on the subject; and draw your own conclusions.

As for myself, I have done research, and have concluded that the thrust side of the piston IS on the side that is in the direction of rotation. If you want to present the physics force vector diagrams of the mechanical geometry, no problem. You can argue the point from either side [no pun intended]. Whichever way you want to view it is fine by me.

Whichever side IS the major thrust side is debatable. The effects of offsetting the wrist pin to one side or the other is not quite so debatable: the results and effects have been fairly well documented. It still ends up as a matter of choice and preference.

TF

The Aspirator

01-08-2005, 09:47 PM

Humm, interesting comments you guys. I'll let the three of you figure out your differences.

But more importantly...... I just sat my brother down and showed him how to gap the rings. I taught him very carefully and told him to check the gaps a LOT. We were aiming for .022". Well some how he got a middle ring all the way to .045" :omg: . The top rings are all gapped at .025".

What to do?

We could gap all the middle rings to .045" and hope for the best. Or we could scrap these $80 rings and get another set *shudder*.

So how nasty would it be to have the middle rings gapped at the HUGE value of .045"??? What are the downsides? Lower compression? Oil loss? Are these consequences live-able? I was reading that at 6000rpm, each rod/piston hits TDC 100 times per second. Sounds like a hell of a lot but the math works out. Anyways, will compression really suffer with a gap this big? It happens so fast that its hard to imagine compression getting past the relatively tight top ring, then 180 around to the other side, then out.

Thoughts please! I need advice.

stealthfti

01-08-2005, 10:03 PM

John,

your brother gets a big 'aw ****!'. And I doubt that he will repeat the error.

I would suggest calling Hastings on Monday. Somebody there might try to help you out. The general policy is probably: rings sold in sets only. But, Customer Service people sometimes bend the rules to help out a customer. Give that a try.

I would not go with a second ring that wide.

TF

The Aspirator

01-08-2005, 10:20 PM

Damn. Now we need 4 new middle rings, or a whole set. While I was typing my post I told him "Weelllllll, you might as well take them all out to .045 now that you screwed the first one up. Either they're screwed anyways and this will be practice for you, or they'll work that large."

I guess it was practice eh? Now what about this cheap idea. For a 1st OS B21 you can get two types of ring sets, one with a 1.75mm top ring and one with a 2mm top ring. One set costs about $35 while the other set costs like $85 (we needed the expensive set). Could we concievably get the cheap set and ONLY use the middle rings from it? From all I've read they should be the same, because they specify the difference in the size of the top ring. Also, would I HAVE to get Hastings rings or could I get whatever FCP Groton carries?? Maybe we'll just hit up a local parts store looking for hastings and get the cheap set if it'll work.

:grrr:

stealthfti

01-08-2005, 10:36 PM

John. that sounds like a plan.

IIRC, it was the kolbenschmidts that had the thicker top ring; and the mahles that were same size top and second [but my memory could very well be faulty on that]. If you can get a hastings set with the same thickenss second ring for $35; and if those second rings are the same as the ones you have, you should be good. Take along a second ring on your search. I would hazard a guess that if they are both Hastings ring sets for a 21F [one KB, one mahle], the second rings would be the same.

If the scouting around turns up empty, I'd still call Hastings. Either they might be able to help, or maybe put you in touch with one of their big warehouses, who might have a damaged return set sitting around. Won't know til you ask.

TF

Matt Dupuis

01-09-2005, 12:09 AM

I'm not going to do the vector thrust diagrams for you, Tom. Trying to prove people wrong just gets me into trouble. On the power stroke the piston is being shoved down by the force of combustion, and to the oil filter side by the angularity of the rod, and this is why most engine manufacturers offset the pin towards the other side - to lessen the rod angularity on the power stroke, and to lessen the thrust loading on the skirt. Whether you call one major and the other minor is indeed a matter of preference. I prefer to call the side of the piston that's the most highly loaded the major thrust side but maybe you prefer to call the major thrust side the one closer to the pin. It's fairly irrelevant in this case - now John understands which axis is thrust and which isn't.

Sorry to hear that you have to scrap part of a set of rings, John. I'm fairly positive that you can buy single piston sets, but you'll probably have to get them directly from Hastings. You may find it quicker to buy a completely new set...

stealthfti

01-09-2005, 03:10 AM

Matt, I appreciate your not doing the vector diagrams. Which is major or minor can be argued to degrees of accuracy to four decimal points; for either view. If you and I must argue, let's do it on something of greater import. Besides being more fun, it would also be more beneficial.

John, I did some looking around. The two ring sets for the 21Fs were only different on the top ring thickness: one version was 1.75mm top, 2mm second, 4mm oil; the other version was 2mm top, 2mm second, and 4mm oil. Which was which was not defined by piston maker: KB and Mahle did it both ways, apparently.

TF

The Aspirator

01-09-2005, 03:36 AM

Thanks Stealth! That's what I suspected. That means that my brother can go out on monday and order a set of the cheaper rings, then gap them himself. I'm thinking .025 top (already done), .022 middle and for the bottom one I'll just use the middle of the green manual specs.

On a good note, the Clevite bearings that my brother picked up are INDEED 1st undersized with STD thrusts!! Yippee! Even with the plastic shrink wrap I could slip the end of the thrust bearing into the crank, it was snug but showed that it would work before I opened the package. So I opened it up and measured them, I think they had a 1.5275 width and the crank is 1.535. So possibly 7.5 thou thrust clearance, though my measurements might be a thou or two off compared to those expensive inside/outside mics.

I also read up again how to do the thrust bearing "mod", sounds straightforward. I think I'll practice on the old Fed Mogul bearings and take a pic to post. Don't wanna screw up these new $113 (inc. tax) bearings.

Now I'm going out to finally finish up that combustion chamber work! I MIGHT get it done tonight......... :x:

John

stealthfti

01-15-2005, 05:06 AM

I'm not going to do the vector thrust diagrams for you, Tom. Trying to prove people wrong just gets me into trouble.

Not with me, Matt.

On the power stroke the piston is being shoved down by the force of combustion, and to the oil filter side by the angularity of the rod, and this is why most engine manufacturers offset the pin towards the other side - to lessen the rod angularity on the power stroke, and to lessen the thrust loading on the skirt. Whether you call one major and the other minor is indeed a matter of preference. I prefer to call the side of the piston that's the most highly loaded the major thrust side but maybe you prefer to call the major thrust side the one closer to the pin.

Fair enough. This has bothered me some since. Because you were right; and because I was wrong. Your description describes what occurs. My reply was in error; I skated some on that one.

Through the four strokes, the heavier thrust outwards will alternate from the intake side to the oil filter side; and during the power stroke, the heavier thrust is on the oil filter side.

Why am I bringing this up now?

Well, I was doing some comparisons on piston speeds based on rod length and cam event timing....because of a discussion in another world that caught my eye. So I sat down and was running some numbers and graphing things out and....it hit me that you had made the correct point on the sideloads during the power stroke. And that my reply was rather lame. Thanks for going easy on me.

So, to repeat mikep's comment: Matt is correct.

Enjoy the moment, 'Duck. That makes two for you in a week. That's way better than I usually get. Kudos.

Later,

Thomas Fritz
...the stealth FTi

Matt Dupuis

01-15-2005, 10:49 AM

Tom, you're on such a level that 99.99% of us can't appreciate how supremely right you normally are. I've been reminded of several good practices and been schooled in a few new ones thanks to this thread, so I'm not gonna go hard on the guy who provided all this info. I knew you'd look at a used piston one day and say "holy crap - look at all this scuffing on the oil filter side..."

Wow, two in one week, and in different threads yet... I think my head's gonna explode! O:-)

The Aspirator

01-15-2005, 02:14 PM

Dammit, just lost a really long post. Okay lemme try this again.

I'm glad you two came to an agreement. But Tom, if you were wrong and Matt was right, does that mean that this image is exactly opposite of what I should be doing? Meaning that the top and oil scraper gaps should be on the intake side, and the middle ring gap should be on the oil filter side?

http://www.pbase.com/stealthfti/image/38397562

My brother told me that he finally ordered a new set of rings, and they should be here on tuesday. He knows what we needed to get, but he didn't confirm which ones he did get. I'm assuming they're Hastings, the cheap $35 ones with the wrong size top ring but the proper replacement middle ring. Also he finally ordered the rest of the stuff we need from summit. Oil filter relocation kit, Autometer mechanical oil pressure gauge and pod, 3" cat, 3" 180* mandrel bent for the downpipe, and another bend for some custom IC piping.

Remember, I got a welder for christmas :-D . Already made him a short throw shifter, a sweeeeeet coolant drain plug on the lower rad hose, a threaded oil return hole in the block, and whatever else I could get my hands on that needed a bead of weld.

So, I will be at my shop pretty much all this weekend, this coming week, and next weekend, working on this heap. And I'll bet getting a LOT of stuff done. So if there is anything else that you guys have been holding back on, now is the time to share it. My goal is to have the entire longblock and tranny IN the car by the end of next weekend. The head still has to be decked, but that only takes a day or two at the MS, he works quickly.

Soon we'll get to talk about start up and run-in procedures. I'm a little concerned because we're starting this fresh motor on megasquirt and spark with maps that won't match this engine. We'll use my old turbo maps (B230f+t, holset, MSnS, 405) that are tuned pretty good, and we'll throw on the wideband. Here are some other posts about run-in procedures that I remember reading a while ago, but don't have time to read again right now:
http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=27310
http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=17215
http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=16751

That should do for now, I'm heading off to Lynden. Hopefully we'll get some work done on the first day! My parents are going to Mexico for a week, that's why I've gotta keep an eye on my brother ;-) , luckily that means we'll get a TON of work done!

John

stealthfti

01-15-2005, 03:13 PM

John,

Do the ring gap clocking as I show in that pic. For the rings, you want the gaps where I illustrated them to be. Regardless of the thrust discussion, for best compression control and oil control, the gap clocking as illustrated will work quite well. More later.

Thanks for the kind words, Matt. I wish I was that good. The important thing is that we are okay; and can keep on talking volvos and such. Getting it right is the objective; 'being' right is not.

Good discussion and good argument helps us all towards the objective. I would much rather 'be' wrong on something, correct the error, and end up getting it right. Seeing things through others' keen eyes and minds makes the journey more fun.

TF

Matt Dupuis

01-15-2005, 05:48 PM

Well one thing I'd like to talk about is the clocking as you've shown them in the pic. I always thought that gapping the rings on the thrust axis or pin axis was evil. I think I got this impression when rebuilding british motors... but one thing those motors never were known for was oil control, right?

Having a fresh look at things, I REALLY like this method of gapping the rings. Here's why:

The top ring gap, being on what we can now agree to be the major thrust side, will get hidden by ring land when the piston is on the power stroke. The ring stays concentric in the bore, but the piston gets shoved towards the camera until the skirt and crown are almost touching the bore. The piston almost completely covers the gap in the ring. This makes the top ring practically gapless under power stroke. That's nice.

The second ring, with the gap being on what we now agree to be the minor thrust side, will get hidden on the intake, compression, and exhaust stroke, which makes the second ring practically gapless during those events.

Having the ring gaps 180 degrees apart is something I've always tried to do, and with Mahle rings I've installed 'em like Tom has them shown in the pic, but somewhere in between the thrust and pin axis.

I'm still not crazy about having the ring gaps maxed out in the bores, but that ensures no butting of the top ring. Having taken a fresh look at ring gap placement, I now think that it's less important to have a wide gap on the second ring, but I don't think it's going to matter as much in the long run.

As far as last-minute things to keep in mind, John: The rear main seal is very easy to damage during installation. Be VERY careful with this. The spring on the inside of the seal holds the lip of the seal against the crankshaft, and it's very easy to dislodge that spring and have it lose tension on the seal.

The oil pump transfer pipe is another thing that's very important to get right. I've seen plenty of torn rubber seals in the bottom of the oil pan or stuck to the screen of the oil pump, so SOMEHOW they're squeezing their way out past the bead of the tube and the housing, with a resulting loss in oil pressure. I believe the bead could be made bigger, or maybe a washer/spacer could be added that would make it impossible for the seal to pass between the tube and the pump/block? Welding the tube in place is not an issue, as the tube and pump enter the block at diverging angles, and it would be impossible to assemble, I think. I remember reading somewhere that someone did something about this, but I forget who and where. It might have been on this site so a search might be in order.

Make sure you torque the rods and mains... and make sure you get the caps on right. I've probably always over-oiled the mains, which could result in a hydraulic lock between the bottom of the bolt and the bottom of the hole before they become fully torqued - or at best, it throws off the torque reading. The rods won't suffer from this issue, but you also don't want a huge coating of oil between the cap and rod. It's probably going to get squeezed out when you torque 'em, but it's also best to minimize this.

Get a new oil separator box. Think about getting new bolts for the flywheel to crankshaft. Make sure you torque them!!! Don't over-torque the bolts holding the clutch cover on, and think hard about getting new bolts for them. Make sure the crank bolts are 12.9, and it wouldn't hurt to have the clutch bolts the same grade.

This is more of a break-in issue, but leave the intake manifold OFF the engine until the very last thing. Leave the oil separator box and the oil pump drive out as well. Make yourself a drive tool out of an old oil pump drive, if you've got one laying around. Grind off the teeth and weld on an extension that you can drive with a drill. Spin the drill in the right direction (you'll know it because it will be very difficult to turn the pump in one direction and quite effortless in the other direction). Once you've had oil pressure for a few seconds, crank over the motor by hand two full revolutions, or more. This ensures you've got all your oil passages full, your pump's primed, you've got oil on the top end and your crank journals are filled, etc. You've also flushed out the bearings and any particles/contaminants you may have left behind. BE SURE YOU INSTALL THE PUMP DRIVE AND THAT IT SEATS IN THE SLOT BEFORE INSTALLING THE SEPARATOR BOX!

That's about all I can think of.

The Aspirator

01-16-2005, 05:40 AM

Thanks for those tips Matt, that's exactly the kind of advice I was looking for. I'll make sure to be really careful with the rear main seal (all of them really).

Now with the oil pump transfer pipe, I've seen pics of guys on here actually building up a ridge of JBweld around the pipe to hold the seals in there for GOOD. I think this is an awesome idea that should work well, assuming that JBweld will be content being soaked in hot oil (should be). Or the quickie method would be with a properly sized washer, as you said. I'll take a closer look and see if it's do-able without any downsides.

Ahh, I found the JBweld mod pictures. The link was sent to me via PM by member "11110000" last summer:
http://www.brickboard.com/FAQ/700-900/EngineLubrication.htm#OilDeliveryTube

Make sure you torque the rods and mains... and make sure you get the caps on right. I've probably always over-oiled the mains, which could result in a hydraulic lock between the bottom of the bolt and the bottom of the hole before they become fully torqued - or at best, it throws off the torque reading. The rods won't suffer from this issue, but you also don't want a huge coating of oil between the cap and rod. It's probably going to get squeezed out when you torque 'em, but it's also best to minimize this.
Hydro lock by overfilling the main bolt holes eh? Makes sense, I probably would never have thought about it. Thanks for the heads up, I'll make sure that all bolts are well lubricated, but not over-lubed.

For the oil seperator box, we were just going to chop the old one in half, clean the heck out of it, then JBweld it back together. Cheaper than a new one for $35 and it *should* work as new. I'll get new o-rings too, unless the came with the gasket kits. Although, thinking of how perfect this engine will be, that thing better be spotless inside once I'm done with it, else I'm just taking a gamble.

Good thought with new flywheel and PP bolts, I'll be sure to get new ones, 12.9.

Thanks bud! Tomorrow afternoon I've got some work to do!

John

stealthfti

01-16-2005, 03:48 PM

John, if you make sure that the transfer pipe fits properly when the oil pump is set in place, you will not have to worry about the O rings popping out. The Melling pump does a good job of securing and locating the transfer pipe. Before I would consider in my worst nightmare the use of JBweld inside or near the oil pan, I would rather be dragged by my gonads through a briar patch.

What I would suggest is this: if the transfer pipe is NOT really snug and just about or really immovable when it and the pump are in place, then find another transfer pipe that DOES fit properly snugly. A game of musical transfer pipes; not a game of JBweld in the oil pan so that it can fail, crumble, be drawn into the oil pump, seize the oil pump gears, shear the drive ears, and waste your motor if you miss the zero oil pressure reading on the oil gauge.

No offence intended towards the Mr. Sargent in that link to on the 700/900 FAQ info, BUT I would suggest that if you have to use a mallet to install the transfer pipe, then you have a problem that a mallet will not solve. The visuals: BEAT on it with a mallet to get it in there; and JBCRAP the hell out of it......no thanks.

If you think I have an attitude on JBweld, you do not want to even mention RTV sealers. You know: that nice purty red, blue, orange, or black crap that people seem to think needs to be half an inch thick before they install the pan; never mind where the excess oozes out to, and into....like the oil pump. And it is really funny to see an oil pump seized and drive ears sheared off and ZERO oil pressure because of half a thimble full of RTV sealer inside the oil pump.

RTV sealers do have a place, and a use: only when required, and only in amounts that are absolutely the minimal to do the job intended; and applied so as to NOT allow or cause any OOZING into the inside of the motor.

I realize that JBweld is one of the favorite 'tools' to many people. Fine: their choice. I will never use that stuff, or anything like it, anywhere on a motor where that crap has access to the inside of the motor.

All this IS a personal opinion: my personal opinion. Take it or leave it; no prob. I have a rather strong antipathy towards things like JBweld and RTV sealers, and the misuse and abuse of them.

Some more later,

TF

Matt Dupuis

01-16-2005, 04:07 PM

I agree 100% on JBweld. I never use the stuff - it's broken off too many times in non-severe applications for me to trust it at ALL in or around the engine.

However, I've seen too many failures of the oil pump transfer o-rings. Make sure it fits, but I think something better is needed than the factory beading, myself. Like I said, I've seen too many of these broken, laying inside the oil pan or sucked up against the oil pump pickup. A bead of weld, properly shaped, could be just the ticket to keep the o-ring in place, but if done improperly it could cut or abrade the seals much quicker than stock.

I'm not sure what to suggest here...

JohnLane

01-16-2005, 04:42 PM

JB Weld has no place in your project that you have soooo much time and effort into.
You are saving zero dollars when the JB Weld that is holding the crankcase ventilation box together crumbles as it WILL do and takes out your engine. All that effort at getting thrust clearance right will go away pronto once fed a shockingly small dose of that sh*t via the oil pump when it is bypassing the oil filter. Spend the thirty-five bucks for the crankcase vent bottle and know that you have spent wisely. Find another way to hold an O-Ring in place if that is needed but leave the JB Weld to the Jimbos who broke an ear off of the intake manifold in the Good-ole truck and dunno what to do cuz the boss will open the can of whoop-ass when he sees what Jimbo did AGAIN!!

I worked with Jimbo many years ago. JB Weld was one of his many tricks that would boomerang every time he tried them and he never did learn. I quit that place years ahead of Jimbo losing his job in part due to having to fix Jimbo's boomerangs. One of those was dealing with an engine that had ended up with JB weld in the oil in chunks. No sh*t.

You are only saving money if you are not making life worse down the road.
'Tis best to not cut corners with anything that may effect the integrity of the engine.
RTV sealer misapplied will do the same. Somehow Jimbo never realized that the stuff is to be used SPARINGLY. That would be only as much as is required where required to do the job for those of us in Rio-Linda or King County. For those of us who are not aware of just how little it takes; when smearing it on two machined surfaces that are to be sealed together (the upper oil pan that supports the main bearings in my V-6 comes immediately to mind) only just enough is applied to one surface to discolor it when smeared with your gloved finger. We do NOT apply that stuff as one would apply tasty toothpaste to the toothbrush.

Save money getting the best deal on the same part number of crankcase breather box from whomever.

I'm eager to hear of your treasure running and running well for a long time.

JohnLane.

Morten VJ

01-16-2005, 04:44 PM

Try to change the oil frequvently and use the right sae grade for your lokation.
I don't belive thath a car manufaktor would make a fault like that.
The oring syndrom are a symbol of a misused engine. or simply age, or to mutch RTV or jb weld make your pick.

Morten

stealthfti

01-16-2005, 04:52 PM

Matt, I hear what you are sayin'. And when I opened up that L block and found the block side O ring halfway out, I knew it was something to be addressed.

Since I had a couple other blocks up on stands, and an assortment of old pumps and pipes laying around [one of the advantages to being an old packrat: you have that stuff laying around. one of the disadvantages of being an old packrat: you HAVE that stuff laying around IN THE WAY]; I did some playing around with several pumps and pipes on the three blocks.

What I figured out was that if the pipe [without O rings] will fit into the pump and the block nearly all the way down, and do it snugly so that it does not wobble; then that pipe will press the O ring all the way in and still not move at all. I thought about spreading the U of the pipe...did not really thrill me. I thought about pinning the pipe at the block and pump [measuring and drilling the block and pump just above where the pipe shoulder is at, and using safety wire like a roll pin to retain the pipe and not let it back out]. And then I found a couple of pipes that just fits oh so beautifully tight; and shelved the drilling/pinning idea.

If I come across one that I cannot come up with a tight pipe for, then I will do the drill and wire procedure. Because I do think that the reason the O ring comes out is because the pipe is able to back out some, allowing the O ring to have room to squirm by.

The highest oil pressure in the motor is right there at the transfer pipe. From there the pressure will be lower, due to constrictions in the passages, and leakage past clearanced parts. Those O rings can do their job; but they need to be kept in place.

TF

Morley

01-16-2005, 06:09 PM

I also had some o-rings blow off on a NOS(!) B23ET after a half years use, using SAE 20-50 oil in winter time. If you use the proper oil and keep the revs down when cold, I have no reason to believe the o-rings will fly off accidently. Also take extreme caution when mounting and use lots of oil to prevent it from twisting.

BTW, are you using o-rings? I can swear my rings/gaskets were not regular o-rings, but "squared" o-rings, if you know what i mean.

The Aspirator

01-16-2005, 06:45 PM

Good conversation. I've been thinking about these things alot since I posted them, and I'm glad you buds brought it up. John Lane said it best:

"You are only saving money if you are not making life worse down the road."

JBweld has its place in my car, especially before I got my welder, but I always felt very nervous putting it near anything in the engine. I've found it to be great for sealing little cracks and crevices, but it doesn't support sh!t. Like when I drilled a hole in my IC piping and shoved in my intake air temp sensor, I JBwelded around it to seal, it's been holding up just dandy. But in the oil pan???.............. *shudder*

I think I have 2-3 oil transfer pipes laying around, so I'll definately try the musical chairs like Tom suggested. Once I find one that fits without the o-rings, we have a winner. Matt, I've been thinking of what you said about building up a small bead of weld around the lip, but I'm worried about burning through the pipe. We'll see, maybe I'll do a practice one. I think this would be the BEST way to make a larger lip and be SURE to keep the o-ring in place. And Morley, yeah the O-rings are NOT regular black rubber o-rings, they're kinda square shaped red rubber, in an O shape.

I've replaced the oil pump o-rings on two engines, so I've started to get a "feel" for how tight the pickup tube should be. With the old o-rings you can wiggle the pipe alot, while with the new o-rings you can't wiggle it at all (with the pump installed).

You are saving zero dollars when the JB Weld that is holding the crankcase ventilation box together crumbles as it WILL do and takes out your engine. True. I have to keep reminding myself that we're building this engine to hopefully last like 200,000 miles (or whatever, a long time). JBwelding the crankcase box is just a temporary fix, and if after 10k it quits, bye bye engine. Not a good thing. I have a hard time thinking really long term while I'm building these cars, but I have to change my mentality. This thing is being built so well that it should last for a really really really long time, why dick around with a temporary mod like that. Waste of time really. New breather box it is.

John

Hank Scorpio

01-16-2005, 09:00 PM

The only place I use JB weld on a Volvo motor is:

1. Freezeplugs
2. I tap the block (OEM turbo block) at the turbo return line spot w/ a 3/4" pipe tap. Then, use a 3/4" NPT bushing threaded in and JBwelded for security.

Thats it :-D

JohnLane

01-17-2005, 12:50 PM

Guys.........
A telephone call to my friends at Ravenna Volvo reveals that the pipe in question would cost you $36.38 at their gouge price straight from Volvo.
Seems like a reasonable expense so that one could know that you will have one that has not been Ham-fisted by our pal Jimbo who removed the oil pump with a prybar and a hammer at some point in our little treasure's past don't we all think?

Doug I have to agree with your statement about using JB weld for something like a core plug. Not too much of a chance of it getting to rotating/reciprocating parts that way. Of course we don't want to be taking a chance with that stuff having cooling system pressure applied to it.

This should be a fun engine once up and running.

JohnLane.

stealthfti

01-17-2005, 03:25 PM

JL, I forgot about Jimbo maybe being in there before I opened it up. And $36.38 ain't bad to have a tight pipe.

John, you'll be putting things together this week. You have the green manual; and what has been talked about so far. You should be good to go. Just don't rush the assembly.

Just about everybody assembles the longblock , and then installs that. I used to do it that way.

Now I do it differently. I get the shortblock ready, and either mate it to the tranny and then install into the chassis, or install it into the chassis where the tranny is waiting. I go with putting the shortblock in first for two main reasons:

....it is easier to manage on the cherry picker; easier to see around and slide into position; less chance of damaging firewall wiring; easier to get the bellhousing aligned and the bolts in; easier to start reattaching the accessories and hoses that are hidden by the head.

....and because I prefer to not stress the head bolts or head gasket by lifting the engine by the head. I realize that that is probably viewed as being in the 'Outer Limits' spectrum of being weird; and going off the deep end about something. okay. That may well be.

But, it is easier to do the install of the shortblock, and then build the motor in chassis....for me anyway. For example: it is easier to install the water pump on the block: mount it flush with the deck, tighten it down. When the head is installed, the head gasket thickness will properly squeeze the upper seal between the water pump and the head. No fighting to compress the seal and tighten the water pump bolts.

Do that however you want. But you might consider my method.

I also do something else that few others do [actually: probably nobody else cuz they ain't crazy]: I install the head with the cam not in place. I want to torque the aluminum head down, not the camshaft. The cam gets its turn to be installed and torqued, after the head is on and situated, and torqued down.

Whether you go with the old style headbolts, or with the new style, is your choice. I am in the new style headbolt camp; and have stated my case elsewhere. Go with what you want. Just make sure the bolt threads are clean and lightly oiled; and the block threads clean. And follow the tightening sequence procedures.

Matt's method of priming the lubrication system works. I do it a bit differently. I get the block in, the head on, and the peripherals of the lubrication system [the oil cooler and the turbo] in place, hooked up, and tightened. The timing belt is NOT on yet. Once there is oil in, and a filter on, I then prime the engine and the peripherals by rotating the intermediate shaft. That way, I can confirm 'no leaks', prime, and fully pressurize the system. Once that is done, and all confirmed to be good to go, the timing belt goes on.

And then I finish the build.

Take some pics as things progress. It is nice to have a record; and it is nice to have pics to refer back to for other things later on.

Re the running in or break-in procedure: you listed where I have stated my case and approach. That is how I do it. Do it however you choose to.

TF

towerymt

01-17-2005, 03:54 PM

Matt's method of priming the lubrication system works. I do it a bit differently. I get the block in, the head on, and the peripherals of the lubrication system [the oil cooler and the turbo] in place, hooked up, and tightened. The timing belt is NOT on yet. Once there is oil in, and a filter on, I then prime the engine and the peripherals by rotating the intermediate shaft. That way, I can confirm 'no leaks', prime, and fully pressurize the system. Once that is done, and all confirmed to be good to go, the timing belt goes on.
Just wanted to mention an oddity I witnessed while helping Mike P. and Rob put a B21F together and back in a 242. They primed the engine on the stand and it had a leak. It came from a plug (internal hex screw-in) on the back of the engine, I believe inside the bell housing area. The "plug" had a small hole in it, so maybe it wasn't really a plug. Maybe it was taken out and replaced by the wrong plug during the rebuild process. I don't know, but it was a good thing the trans wasn't attached because it was a slow leak and may not have shown up for a while, or it would have just required pulling off the trans later.

Matt Dupuis

01-17-2005, 04:45 PM

Yeah, if you can prime the engine on the stand, so much the better. It's what I prefer to do, acutally, but by priming it in the car you go the shortest length of time between priming and starting. Be that as it may... Mike's also got a great point - it's much easier to fix leaks with the engine on a stand. I've also used Tom's method, but I still like to rotate everything WITH oil pressure BEFORE cranking it.

I like to install everything on the stand and drop the completed engine in place in one piece. The way I view it, the short block and trans weighs about 500 lbs and is being supported by 10 head bolts. If they can't take that kind of force, they don't belong in my engine, where the 150 psi cranking compression over 11 square inches creates over 1600 lbs of force on only 4 bolts, not to mention the forces in combustion. Tom's point about the engine being easier to manouever without the head is a valid one, but by lifting it with the factory intake manifold hooks the engine balances in the properly-leaned-over angle, so it's a straight drop into the engine compartment rather than alot of wrestling with the engine to get it to twist over to the left. Be careful of your fuel rail, though...

Similarly, I view the worry about the cam bearing caps deforming and/or stiffening the head so much that it alters the way the head / gasket / block interface, as being a very VERY picky one. To be kind :-P

It works for you Tom, so I'm not going to say anything negative. you probably build more engines in one year than I've built in a lifetime, so who am I to say you're wrong. I can afford to have a cavalier attitude towards this 'cause it's not my business (nor would I make it one).

Dowatchawant. Firing it at the car with a trebuchet is probably a bad idea, but just about any other method works for me.

stealthfti

01-17-2005, 08:58 PM

Similarly, I view the worry....as being a very VERY picky one.

Thanks, Matt. I'll take that as a compliment...on one of my virtues; few as they are.

TF

Matt Dupuis

01-17-2005, 09:00 PM

Good. I mean it as a kind of "shake my head 'cause I can't understand how anyone can be that picky" sort of goodness.

The Aspirator

01-19-2005, 03:33 PM

Got a lot of progress done yesterday. Picked up the new rings, they were only $42 from the machine shop (plus tax so it was like $56 us). The difference is that they have a 2mm iron top ring, whereas the more expensive ones use a 1.75mm combination metal top ring. I'm not quite sure what it's made of, but it's got two colors, one shiny and one dull or black. So now we just have to gap these new middle rings, gap the bottom rings, then assemble.

We still haven't plastigauged the main bearings yet, so we'll do that. Then check the rod bearings. Then we're basically good to assemble the beast. Where on earth do you find lint free cloths? I tried at Napa and the old guy there said he didn't know, he just uses rags. So I don't know if it's a car store kinda thing, or if I'm supposed to find them at Walmart or something. Suggestions? Unfortunately I didn't cover the engine every night, so there is some visible dust sticking to all that WD40. I need to wipe it away, but don't want to replace it with lint as I do it.

Also we got our order in from Summit! Twas like christmas. 3" cat, 3" 180* bend, 2.25" 180* bend for IC piping, sweeeeeeeet looking Autometer mech oil pressure gauge, two gauge pods, oil filter relocation kit, and I think that's it. Plus I spent $40 at the hardware store getting tons of new nuts and bolts (flywheel, etc) and a bunch of wiring stuff.

Since the 405 head has those pulse air holes, they have to be plugged up somehow. So I drilled them out to 11/32 and used an M10x1.5 tap. Then inserted bolts. I don't want to overtighten the bolts for fear of stripping the threads, nor do I want them to back out from all the exhaust pulses. So I'm going to JBweld them in there so they don't move. They're in there GOOD as it is, but the JBweld is just a glue to keep them from backing out. Works fine on the 405 head on my car. I'm finishing this head tonight and tomorrow, then it goes off to the machine shop to get cleaned up, decked, and new valve guides installed. We're gonna cheap out and not get new seats ($15/hole), so I'll just lap the valves well during re-assembly.

Erik got the old style dash all buttoned up and started installing the oil pressure and boost gauges via black pods mounted right above the clock. I was worried that the pods might stick up too much and look really weird and out of place, but suprisingly they look REALLY sweet. With the shape of that dash (it's like a '79ish black dash) they fit the curves well. I'll obviously post pics once it's done.

Still tons to do, but we're picking away at it.

stealthfti

01-19-2005, 03:48 PM

Sounds good, John.

re lint free cloths: never had much luck trying to buy them myownself. I got into the habit of using nice clean old T-shirts...OLD ones that have been washed a zillion times. That's as close to lint free as I have been able to get. And to a somewhat lesser extent: old cotton white socks. clean of course.

A 50 gallon trash bag makes a great motor bag; esp the transluscent ones.

Thanks for the update.

TF

EricF

01-19-2005, 10:13 PM

As far as lint-free cloth:

See if you can get a few boxes of Kimwipes... I use these in my work to clean very delicate parts, and they are pretty damn lint-free (though they're more of a tissue, and benefit greatly from Glass Plus or some other mild cleaning lubricant). Also a couple cans of canned air are useful in making sure there's no lint.

Also John, thanks for the very explicit coverage of you buildup, and sharing the experience with the forum in such a detailed manner... You and those helping you (big ups) are probably helping quite a few other members through this thread.

The Aspirator

01-20-2005, 07:40 AM

Thanks EricF, anything to help the board! It's nice for me to write all this stuff down too, that way I can actually have a record of it for future research.

*******
FINALLY I got ALL the cylinder head chambers out to 59cc's!!!!!!!:cheers: Give or take .2cc's, so that's close enough for me. Let me do some calculating then I'll post the compression ratio, though I think it should be about 9.2ish. All ports are re-shaped identically. I'm just finishing up sanding them smooth, so that's only another hour tomorrow then it's off to the machine shop. Finally. Man, Stealth, earlier in this thread you mentioned that you usually spend 40 hours working over a head. At the time I kinda chuckled and didn't think it would take me nearly that long. Well I haven't been tracking my time at all, but over the past 2 months that I've been working on this thing, I can easily see that 20-40 hours have gone by. It's been a TON of work. After buying a whole bunch of small carbide burrs for my Dremel, I finally found the perfect one for combustion chamber work. This is actually the only one I used, and I wish I would have started off with it in the first place. It's got an 1/8th inch shaft to fit the dremel, about a 1/4" diameter head, and maybe half an inch tall blades. As you can see the top end has cuts too, and this is THE tool to shave off that top layer of aluminum from the top of the chambers. With a steady hand this burr can eat away a lot of material really quickly, but can also shape and form very nicely. It also worked excellently for all the corners and bends. I wish I bought two, cause this one was getting a bit dull by the end. I just got it from Home Depot, it's a Dremel brand bit (though the pic is from mcmaster).
http://www.mcmaster.com/catalog/111/gfx/large/43035ap2l.gifhttp://www.mcmaster.com/catalog/111/gfx/large/43035al1l.gif

So that was the extent of my progress tonight.

John

The Aspirator

01-21-2005, 10:04 PM

I got all chambers out to 59cc and sanded them smooth, though it's hard to get into those corners! Just took it to the machine shop to have him do a full rebuild. He'll deck it, install the new guides I supplied, do a 3 angle valve job, then assemble the whole thing for me (I'm getting lazy). I think it's going to be about $130. I think we've passed 2 grand by now.........

Interesting finds with the pistons rings. The first set we got were $93us and had a chromed top ring (just like this (http://www.pbase.com/stealthfti/image/38397562)picture of yours Stealth), and the top ring measures out to be about 1.72mm. Then I placed the oil scraper rings into the bore to measure the initial gap...... They are all .026" from the factory. The Green manual specs are .010-.024", so the middle recommended gap is .017". Weird.

The second set of Hastings rings we got were $42us (both purchased by our machine shop), and have an iron top ring, just like the middle ring. This ring measured out to also be 1.72mm. The oil scapers of this set have factory gaps of .022".

So this is very very weird. Both sets of rings are identical and fully interchangable except for the chrome part. Yet one is HALF the price of the other. Anyways, I guess I'll just toss in the .022" oil rings and leave them alone. That is just near the max of the specs so I guess it'll be alright. It'll have to be cause I'm not buying any more!

I got some more plastigauge today so right now I'm heading out to lay in the crank, measure, install. Then measure and install the rods. Then the pistons and rings. I should easily be able to do that tonight, my brother is throwing a huge party and I don't want anything to do with it, so I'm gonna be the hermit that I am and retreat to the garage for an all nighter. I want this freakin car DONE.

John

Matt Dupuis

01-21-2005, 10:49 PM

Ah, the glorious life of a hot rod builder... THIS is why I didn't become a mechanic!

The Aspirator

01-21-2005, 10:54 PM

Ah, the glorious life of a hot rod builder... THIS is why I didn't become a mechanic!I hear ya, I couldn't do this for a living. Just as a fun hobby. Though it's going to be a LOT more fun when I build MY next engine, I'm really looking forward to it. Not only will it be my project that I'll want to work on all the time, but I'll already know all this crap I just learned so it'll be a heck of a lot easier.

The Aspirator

01-23-2005, 02:45 AM

Yay, I got the crank/rods/pistons installed! All main bearings plastigauged to .002", and all rods were about .015", though I could have sworn I specified .020 for the rods....... Ohh well. All the rings were clocked SBC style, and I made SURE to install all the main caps/pistons/rods/caps in the proper orientation, so it's all good to go.

Now I'm working on the oil pump and the seals. Both are giving me trouble. I think a quick search will tell me the best way to install the seals (they're tight!) but I'd like some comments on my oil pump situation. I got a brand new Melling pump, and am using an old transfer pipe. The transfer pipe does NOT fit all the way into the pump the way it should, it's as if the port in the pump is a few thou too small for the pipe. I spent a while sanding the end of the pipe down to try and make it fit, but no progress. One solution that I thought of was to maybe get one of those little brake hones and hone it out till it fits. Or I might just take the pump and pipe to the machine shop and say "I've given you almost $1000 worth of business, can ya make this work for me? :lol: ". I wish I had my digital camera here so I could take pics, but I don't so I can't.

Other than that progress is good. Slow, but steady. Been getting a lot of little things buttoned up.

John

stealthfti

01-23-2005, 04:10 AM

John,

a dab of smeared grease will help the square O rings slide onto the transfer pipe; and into the pump and block orifices.

re the problem with the transfer pipe NOT fitting into the Melling: did you try the other end of the pipe, or another pipe, just to verify that the prob IS with the Melling and not with your transfer pipe being a tad oval-ized? And is the problem with the pipe diameter, or with the ridge for the O ring?

one and a half thou on the rod bearings is okay...they will be fine.

TF

The Aspirator

01-23-2005, 05:37 PM

a dab of smeared grease will help the square O rings slide onto the transfer pipe; and into the pump and block orifices.
Yeah I figured that out. The pipe goes into the block easily, and seats as it should. Because I think this is the exact pipe from that block.

re the problem with the transfer pipe NOT fitting into the Melling: did you try the other end of the pipe, or another pipe, just to verify that the prob IS with the Melling and not with your transfer pipe being a tad oval-ized? And is the problem with the pipe diameter, or with the ridge for the O ring?
I did try the other end of the pipe, no go. So I think the problem is with the melling hole being a tad bit too small. I found out that I don't have another transfer pipe laying around, unless I open up a few of these garbage engines that I do have around the shop. Eh, I might have to. Or I'll just keep sanding away at the pipe with flapwheels on my dremel until it fits in. I tried to measure the diameters with my calipers but couldn't get good readings, if anything it's only a few thou off.

Let me try to explain it again. Okay in the picture below, at the top, you can see inside the pump hole where I'm having the problem.
http://www.pbase.com/stealthfti/image/26972409
When inserting the transfer pipe into the pump, the ridge of the pipe only goes down to being level with the top of the pump. I would think that the ridge should go all the way down to that second ridge inside the pump, no? Because if I put the o-ring in the pump all the way down, then insert the pipe as far as it'll go, there's probably still a 1/4" of gap between the o-ring and the ridge. Can't be acceptable. So the bottom of the pipe is just too tight to fit deep into the pump body. What do I do? I would like to have all the seals in place and the oil pan on today, so I can drop the shortblock and tranny into the car. But I just don't know if that's going to happen.

John

stealthfti

01-23-2005, 06:09 PM

John,

it does sound like the Melling is on the minimum side of hole specs. The problem is with the diameter of the pipe, and not the ridge.

A suggested method of reduing the pipe diameter by hand:

...mount the pipe in a vise gently but securely with the end to go in the pump up.

...take a strip of emery cloth, or sandpaper if that is all you have, and kinda loop it around the end of the pipe.

...and draw the emery cloth back and forth. This will work on about half of the pipe at once. And gradually move around so that the sanding is spread out. Doing it this way will also let you put a bit of a taper towards the end of the pipe so it will fit into the pump.

to visualize this better: think of the shoe shine guy in the old movies who is polishing a man's shoes with a wide strip of polishing cloth. You will be sanding instead of polishing.

And by forming a bit of a taper, the O ring will still seal well on the pipe up near the ridge, but the pipe will slide into the pump all the way that it is supposed to. IE, you don't have to reduce the diameter of the pipe all the way up to the ridge, just as far up the pipe as needed to seat and put pressure on the Oring with the ridge.

TF

The Aspirator

01-24-2005, 01:36 PM

Thanks for reminding me of that sanding method, I knew about it but for some reason didn't think to implement it on this peice. Worked like a charm! The pipe now slips deep enough into the pump to squish the o-ring tight. And I started getting ready to weld a little bead around the lip of the transfer pipe, I was even practicing on some scrap metal, when it occured me that the pipe would then not fit into the hole at all! So I put the pipe into the pump and looked to see how much extra room there is on each side of the bulge, maybe 1mm on each side. I'm sure a weld would be thicker than that. So with the pipe placed in there properly, nice and tight, I don't think there should be a problem at all. Like was said above, I think the o-rings pop out when the pipe is loose in there and has room to wiggle or even back out some. But my pipe should be good and tight. I haven't installed the pump yet but it's good to go.

I also got the front carrier on and the seals in. Waterpump is on and level with the deck. I started prepping the rear main seal but didn't finish it. So the shortblock is just about DONE! But unfortunatley I can't touch it again till friday. Erik will be doing some work this week though, so we'll still make progress.

And Friday/Saturday Matt, Dale, Athal and others are coming down! And you better believe I'm gonna put you guys to work :-P .

John

Matt Dupuis

01-24-2005, 01:41 PM

Screw that. You'd better believe you're mixing the martinis and I'm getting slushed.

stylngle2003

01-24-2005, 02:01 PM

vodka on the rocks with a twist? or gin straight up with olives?

to keep it on topic, john...i cant wait for you to get that beastie running...it should be very sweet

Matt Dupuis

01-24-2005, 02:57 PM

vodka on the rocks with a twist? or gin straight up with olives?
**** the Vodka. Rinse the glass with Vermouth, drop in 4 olives, and fill 'er with iced Bombay Sapphire. Shaken.

luke242ti

01-24-2005, 03:10 PM

**** the Vodka. Rinse the glass with Vermouth, drop in 4 olives, and fill 'er with iced Bombay Sapphire. Shaken.
Never had that or a martini, sounds good though!

on topic - I too can't wait to see this motor perform! Reading the buildup and all the suggestions/direction you have received has been very enlightening!

adrianpike

01-24-2005, 04:56 PM

And Friday/Saturday Matt, Dale, Athal and others are coming down! And you better believe I'm gonna put you guys to work :-P .
What about me foO! I'll be there y0, unless my water pump explodes on the way up, or the electrons get free from my MS box and try to beat me up. I'll come rolling down the driveway, beating them off with a stick, shouting "ground! i need a ground!".

The Aspirator

01-30-2005, 06:29 AM

Time for a little update after we got sidetracked there in the above few posts. Today we had Matt/Dale/Athal/Erik/Adrian/James and myself all working on various stuff this morning and afternoon, it was great! We actually got a lot of little things done and alot of the other little things easily figured out and planned.

Shortblock is DONE, even the oil pan is on. The oil pump transfer pipe is TIGHT and not going anywhere, Matt and I made sure of that. Front and rear seals are on properly, crank gear and pulleys are on, intermediate shaft gear is on, waterpump is on. Tomorrow I will toss in the pilot bearing, then the flywheel/clutch/pressure plate. Then the dirty ass tranny will get mated to this spotless engine...... eh, I figure it'll blow up with 10-15psi anyways. Tomorrow we'll get all this stuff together, then the shortblock/tranny IN the car. Hook up the shifter and driveshaft, clutch cable, speedo, stuff like that.

Dale and Athal were kind enough to shim my head, though I'm missing a few that I'll have to order. No biggie. Along with these I still need to buy a crankcase breather box. Although I think those are the only two things we need, though I'll have to take a way closer look.

Ohh we got the head back from the machine shop on Friday. $150 got us a basic rebuild job. After I ported the hell out of it (59cc), he threw it in the "dishwasher", then beadblasted, then in the "dishwasher" again. It's supa clean. Installed new valve guides that I supplied, cleaned up the valves and did a 3-angle job to the valves and seats (existing seats). Ohh and he decked it, though I'm not sure how much. Maybe I need to go back and ask........ Yeah I really should do that. Also he assembled it all for me. It's NOICE.

I figure once the shortblock and tranny are IN the car we will get the feeling that it's actually getting somewhat close to being done. It'll at least "look" like it's progressing, so our subconcience will be happy. Though honestly, we're getting pretty damn close. Still gotta install the 3" cat and make the 3" downpipe, do the Matt Dupuis style B21F intake with 740 fuel rail and injectors in the K-jet holes mod, button up the interior (almost done), paint the turbo and manifold, finish shimming the head then install, install the A-cam, install the remote oil filter kit, wire up the "and spark" side of Megasquirt, then I think that's more or less it. Besides all the tiny stuff like installing the intercooler and extra crap like that.

Days? Weeks? Months? It all depends on how much we're out there working on it. After tomorrow I won't be back until maybe next weekend. Thanks to all for bearing with me in this two million page thread, and especially thanks to Athal/Dale/Matt for lending a hand this weekend! Thomas you should have come on over and joined the party! Wherever you're from.... :)

John

Captain Bondo

01-30-2005, 07:49 AM

Sounds liek its coming along! I have lots of shims if you need some. Also if he decked it after you measured the 59cc I'd maybe re-check it. Even if you don't hog it out any more it might be worth knowing what the actual compression ratio is just for the sake of documentation, etc.

stealthfti

01-30-2005, 12:23 PM

John,

Sounds like you guys did have some fun. If I could have, I would have. Thanks for the invite.

When a head is decked, normally the amount decked is stamped somewhere on the head. My MS stamps it on the deck under the thermostat area; I have seen it stamped up front on the tensioner surface, and on the thermostat surface. Having the info is good for future reference. I agree with Cappy: it would be a good idea to recheck the CCs of the combustion chambers now that the head has been surfaced; again for the future reference.

An alternative to going to the MS and asking them would be to use a dial caliper and measuring the head height from the deck to the cam cover surface, and comparing that to the specs in the green manual.

The devil is in the details; all the little things to finish up and get done and on or in. And once the shortblock is finally in chassis, it does give a certain satisfaction and sense of a big milestone having been reached. Cool.

If you haven't already been doing it, making up lists of 'to do's' and 'done's' helps a lot. The good and bad of that is that you end up with several pages of both as the project progresses. But it does help you to not forget some of those little things, as well as being a defacto check-off list as the project nears completion. And they end up being the build record so that you know what was done when.

TF

DurableSwedish

01-31-2005, 04:10 AM

What is the grand total for the whole rebuild? $2000?

The Aspirator

01-31-2005, 02:08 PM

I didn't notice anything stamped on the deck, though I'll have to take a second look. Actually I took pictures so I might be able to see them there. I basically need to know how much it was decked for documentation and future knowledge, so either I'll call the MS or just re-check the cc's of each chamber. Hopefully it didn't change toooooooo much. I did notice though that after decking it the edge of every combustion chamber is really sharp now. So I'll go through by hand with some sand paper and smooth the edges out.

Kenny, I might take you up on those shims. I wrote down the measured clearances with the shims that were in there, so I now know exactly what size shims I need once I do some calculations. I think the I need a bunch between .140" and .150", out of the 30 that I have I've only got 2 .149's. All the rest are .150's and .160's.

Stealth, this thread is my build record :cool: .

Grand total so far is probably still just under $2,000 US. Alot of the stuff we bought recently was accounted for in my price list that I posted a while ago. But DON'T think this has been easy, because it's been HELL. Though, fun hell. I dunno, the worst part is that it's not even my car, yet it's my project. Sometimes I just feel like all this work is going down the drain. Though we've come to the point where all the technical **** is over with, now it's just finishing everything up. So I'm almost to the point where I'm just gonna stop. If Erik wants the car done he's gonna have to finish it his damn self. It's easy work from here on out, just a lot of it, though everything is straightforward and simple for him to figure out. But whatever, you guys don't need to hear about all this brotherly love/hate crap, so I'll shutup now.

Morley

01-31-2005, 04:18 PM

Man, you are gonna get so mad when your brother pulls off the wastegate hose for some late night racing and blows the engine ;-)

All that hard labour and accuracy down the drain....better set some sharp rules for him!

Canuckvolvo

01-31-2005, 06:25 PM

Just don't show him how to adjust the boost, or mess with the wastegate. Although being the good big brother you are you've probably already taught him that stuff!
Seriously, I'm sure Eric will be plenty happy as it is, not to mention having to pay for gas sort of acts as a good boost limiter :-)