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ZVOLV
11-11-2004, 04:14 PM
http://img61.exs.cx/img61/4254/EngineInstallFront.jpg

http://img61.exs.cx/img61/5562/EngineInstallTop.jpg

http://img61.exs.cx/img61/1254/EngineInstallTurbointake.jpg


MORE PICS: http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=26256&highlight=bunch+16v+turbo+pics
http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=26597&highlight=bunch+16v+turbo+pics

vurbo
11-11-2004, 04:24 PM
**** man awsome! does it run?

roversweedatwork
11-11-2004, 04:33 PM
damn that look hot! would this be the first turbo 16valve in the us?

n xntrx volvo
11-11-2004, 04:34 PM
damn that look hot! would this be the first turbo 16valve in the us? no, mvp has one, along with a couple others

jpbturbo
11-11-2004, 04:40 PM
**** man awsome! does it run?
Not like that it doesn't.
No fuel injectors!


Looks awesome.

Peace,
Josh

stylngle2003
11-11-2004, 04:49 PM
very cool Zach! im excited to hear about how it runs, when you get to that point

mAydAy
11-11-2004, 05:03 PM
Holy hotness! I think we see the leader of the race currently....

thelostartof
11-11-2004, 05:30 PM
damnit i wish i still lived in SD so i could go help on that .... i pray we can see that thing in action this weekend good luck and good job

SwedishBrick242...
11-11-2004, 05:37 PM
damn thats hot! You bringing that out to Sac on the 20th? I would love to see that beast in action!

boostdemon
11-11-2004, 05:50 PM
looks almost factory, cool to see someone using the oem turbo manifold for it.

what are you going to do about that pipe sitting on the strut tower? rotate the turbo outlet down or make a custom one?

Kjets On a Plane
11-11-2004, 06:23 PM
Is it a B234F block? I can't really tell, but it doesn't really look like a B234F bottom, but I can't quite tell if ti has the external oil pump or not.
Also, are you using the 16V rubber mounts or the 8V hydraulic ones? Why is there an AMM on the turbo inlet, or are you going to try to make it run on some form of LH?
I actually like the idea of the B234 balance shafts to keep those cabin vibrations and resonances from a 4cylinder down in the cabin. They do actually work, having driven a couple of 16Vs.
A 16VF+t would be interesting. ARe you going to run the B204FT intake? or just keep the stock B234 one?

ZVOLV
11-11-2004, 06:54 PM
The only other US 16v turbos I know of are mvp's and that guy budweiserT. I also heard of some east cost 16v turbo spotted at the strip. I bet kenny will eventually pull thru with his 16v turbo also.

All oem intake pipes from mitsu and garrett applications. The only place it rubs is against the frame rail at the turbo outlet (cant see in pics) Mini sledge will take care of that.


b234 bottom end. 10.0 compression lh2.4 just to get it running and then going programmable. .63/.42 garrett. (the t3/t4 in other pics is no longer going to be used)

http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=26597&highlight=bunch+16v+turbo+pics
http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=26256&highlight=bunch+16v+turbo+pics

ZVOLV
11-11-2004, 07:02 PM
And just to make things more clear. I kept going back and forth between whether I should use the b230 block or the b234 and I ended up using the b234. The balance shafts are removed and the holes are welded shut. The b234 crossmember (to go with b234 motor mounts) and brake boosted is also being used.


EDIT- I gotta stop staring at these pics and go back to work!! I just got it looking like that at 5am. It should be running by sat.

245gti
11-11-2004, 07:29 PM
The only other US 16v turbos I know of are mvp's and that guy budweiserT. I also heard of some east cost 16v turbo spotted at the strip. I bet kenny will eventually pull thru with his 16v turbo also.

Don't tell anyone but.....there will be one show up from some crazy Canucks sometime in the next year. There is a '75 242 in my driveway that will be the recipient. Two major projects for this winter are to build an intake manifold and exhaust header.....

Back to our regularly scheduled discussion.... :-D

Kjets On a Plane
11-11-2004, 08:09 PM
I would use the B234 too, no need to mess with teh T-belt tensioner, you get to keep the balance shafts, which I personally like, even though they are one more thing to break they do smooth things out as you wind the 16V out.

the 16V brake booster is really expensive to replace and shaped to re-position the master cylinder if I remember right. I just noticed it on a second look. Did you have to mess with the brake lines a lot to make it work right?

What made you decide against using the 700 8V hydraulic mounts? They last a long time and reduce vibration, but maybe there is a slight fitment issue? I think they would still work though. I also noticed you managed to cram what looks like the 8V dizzy in on the intake cam. The 16V stock dizzy is smaller than the 8V one if I remember right, or maybe it just looked smaller to me because the head is bigger.

Nifty project, and nicely done. I would have done the same if I had a project car, I just might have kept the balance shafts and maybe used the hydraulic mounts. The AMM looks a touch close to the exhaust mani on second glance, but probably not bad at all.

Dale, maybe talk to a euro fellow about getting ahold of a B204GT/FT intake which fits a 240 OK.

Boosted2003
11-11-2004, 08:34 PM
I can get a b204ft/gt intake from dealership in US for 280.

n xntrx volvo
11-11-2004, 08:47 PM
dizzy's the same.
any 200 16v's in this part of the world yet? bud's up and running?
-Aaron
ps :wave:john/ uberbox

Hank Scorpio
11-11-2004, 09:38 PM
16v are so yesterday :-P

Looks good bud. Did you end up sticking an EGT probe in that spot in the manifold? (its factory and the only thing I can think of IS for an EGT probe).

mAydAy
11-11-2004, 09:43 PM
16v are so yesterday :-P

Looks good bud. Did you end up sticking an EGT probe in that spot in the manifold? (its factory and the only thing I can think of IS for an EGT probe).I don't recall where I heard this but B204GT's engine management system is quite pimp. It controls the boost and will raise it using knock sensors and EGT. It in fact is an EGT port.

Oh Doug -- Maybe yesterday but you're still in last week seeing as you have yet to get one done and running :-P. And that 8valve shiznat you're running is years behind.....

-Andy

socalsean
11-11-2004, 10:13 PM
I helped zach till the weeeeee hours of the night. Thank god for beer! We're going on a test drive tonight. can't wait to hear those 16 valves wine in harmony.

thelostartof
11-11-2004, 10:25 PM
so does it start and run?

what are you using for fuel? you need big CFI's? if you show up on sat i'll give ya a free set(if i can find some laying around)

damn makes me wish i would of bought that 16v head i pulled yesterday, only had 20k miles on it(after a rebuild)

mAydAy
11-11-2004, 10:26 PM
Just a warning -- I see lots of brass fittings on that turbo. Not a good idea, they'll melt and break if there are too many of them especially the rough cast ones...

-Andy

stylngle2003
11-12-2004, 12:33 AM
yea i think jon (the aspirator) had issues with brass fittings failing on him

cant wait to hear about how it runs!

linuxman51
11-12-2004, 01:30 AM
there's several floating around the country, just none that bother wasting their time here. get on the stick I'm curious to see what kinda base level performance i should expect from mine :-D (which i'll be working on this weekend)

what transmission are you throwing behind that?

linuxman51
11-12-2004, 01:33 AM
Just a warning -- I see lots of brass fittings on that turbo. Not a good idea, they'll melt and break if there are too many of them especially the rough cast ones...

-Andy

i've never had anything brass melt on my car, I'm kinda curious how these rumours get started... break? its possible, but never melted.

BoxDriver2
11-12-2004, 01:43 AM
i've never had anything brass melt on my car, I'm kinda curious how these rumours get started... break? its possible, but never melted.

I 've seen them break. Usually at the thread junctions with the main body of the fitting, they fatigue from heat.

I have yet to see one melt, but i haven't seen them used directly as an oil supply or drain fitting screwed into the turbo, besides when one member did it and it broke.

stylngle2003
11-12-2004, 01:44 AM
i just remember The Aspirator saying that his failed on him and that he should have used the right stuff the first time...tho thinking about it, it may have been the fact that he chained soo many of them together that caused their untimely demise

Hank Scorpio
11-12-2004, 01:51 AM
I don't recall where I heard this but B204GT's engine management system is quite pimp. It controls the boost and will raise it using knock sensors and EGT. It in fact is an EGT port.

Oh Doug -- Maybe yesterday but you're still in last week seeing as you have yet to get one done and running :-P. And that 8valve shiznat you're running is years behind.....

-Andy

Andy, I've had a complete BUILT 16vT motor sitting on the stand for coming on over a year now. Where do you think his b204GT manifold came from ;-)

Dont blame me, blame justin.

Secondly, I've skipped 16v and gone on to bigger and better things.

stylngle2003
11-12-2004, 01:54 AM
Doug, bigger as in....6 cylinders? or bigger as in like...trucks or something silly

Hank Scorpio
11-12-2004, 02:01 AM
Doug, bigger as in....6 cylinders? or bigger as in like...trucks or something silly

you know

burger powered!!

http://www.pbase.com/dkauer744/image/21373190.jpg

(mod's you can split this thread if you want)


all in due time my friend

n xntrx volvo
11-12-2004, 02:07 AM
damn makes me wish i would of bought that 16v head i pulled yesterday, only had 20k miles on it(after a rebuild) :wiggle:
and doug, just say it, a t6/? in a 75 242.

Hank Scorpio
11-12-2004, 02:20 AM
maybe

maybe Ill build a T5 powered 510 instead ;-)

stylngle2003
11-12-2004, 02:28 AM
maybe

maybe Ill build a T5 powered 510 instead ;-)

that would be incredible....kinda like a T6 powered super7 replica or something

Hank Scorpio
11-12-2004, 02:34 AM
that would be incredible....kinda like a T6 powered super7 replica or something

[last thread jack]

actually I've thought about that too. Would be AWSOME! [/thread jack over]

stylngle2003
11-12-2004, 02:36 AM
any news about how this baby runs? im stayin up until i hear back from you crazy guys over there!

i wanna hear about 16 valves of turbo fed brutality and speed

milkyblue
11-12-2004, 08:11 AM
I am interested to see what you put down power wise compared to numbers I have. What Size turbo are you running? I hope you have a real good gear box, because it will suprise you how much power it will make if tuned properly. Get ready to shift almost as soon as you spool! (especially with a lightened flywheel)

Did you source your b204gt exhaust manifold from Steffansson?

Awesome though--what type of fuel and iginition management are you running?


J

mAydAy
11-12-2004, 08:18 AM
When I selt melt I meant fatigue or something along those words, thats an error in semantics.

Doug - I'm just screwing with you, I know you have had that sitting on that stand and I know thats where that manifold came from also. But I have to deal my blows when I can, it still doesn't run you know :-P

-Andy

MikeHardy
11-12-2004, 09:11 AM
I don't recall where I heard this but B204GT's engine management system is quite pimp. It controls the boost and will raise it using knock sensors and EGT. It in fact is an EGT port.
Me likely. the variation of LH2.4 in the B204FT uses a 6 pin TPsensor/switch, to control Idle/WOT and boost control, the EGT is hooked up so that above 950C the ECU starts to lenghten the injector pulses to maintain a health gas temp

socalsean
11-12-2004, 12:01 PM
Well I left Zachs house at 1am last night and the car still wasn't running yet. He might have stayed up till 5am again working on it but I'm pretty sure the beast will spark to life this afternoon.

mfpmax
11-12-2004, 12:10 PM
maybe

maybe Ill build a T5 powered 510 instead ;-)

What
Are
You

WAITING FOR!

CNGBrick
11-12-2004, 02:40 PM
Brass fittings break from fatigue. Use steel or stainless for reliability.

RT

edit - spelling

TestShoot
11-13-2004, 03:02 AM
damn that look hot! would this be the first turbo 16valve in the us?
Where have you been, ;) there are plenty here in the US, I had one and am about to rebuild another. There are I think 10 or more people here on tbrix alone that are stateside that have them. Some don't speak up though.

Neil Peart
11-13-2004, 08:24 PM
nice lookin!!

ZVOLV
11-13-2004, 10:32 PM
Well, it ran OK on the test drive until I blew a rod out the side of the block......

Hank Scorpio
11-13-2004, 10:33 PM
Well, it ran OK on the test drive until I blew a rod out the side of the block......

Your kidding right?

That sucks man. What happened?

ZVOLV
11-13-2004, 10:35 PM
It hauled ass!!!!! I only got 5 miles though.

Hank Scorpio
11-13-2004, 10:37 PM
so what you went to WOT with stock LH?

didn't you learn anything from Cullen?! ;-)

ZVOLV
11-13-2004, 10:37 PM
I dont know what happened. All i know is i was driving lightly and it nuked. 10psi was the most I saw, but I didnt even mean to run that much. I guessed on the wastegate. It was knocking pretty hard everytime the turbo got close to boost and when the boost built.


I put the bottom end back together myself, but did not rebuild it. Maybe i made a mistake there.

Hank Scorpio
11-13-2004, 10:38 PM
I put the bottom end back together myself, but did not rebuild it. Maybe i made a mistake there.

Yep.

ZVOLV
11-13-2004, 10:39 PM
That thing took off on its own without much throttle at all. I was running an open downpipe with browntops injectors. I swear I was driving lightly. The most I gave it was 30% throttle and when the turbo spooled it would took off. I heard knocking so I was being really nice.


Its OK. I can get another b234 for relatively cheap. Hopefully the valves are OK, but I doubt it. The thing locked up. It really sucks that it happened, but there isnt any sense in fretting about it. I will have the mofo on the road again shortly.

760T man
11-13-2004, 11:50 PM
you know

burger powered!!

http://www.pbase.com/dkauer744/image/21373190.jpg

(mod's you can split this thread if you want)


all in due time my friend
you forgot to blur the wheels

http://www.pbase.com/mr740ti/image/21380120.jpg

btw

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

thelostartof
11-14-2004, 03:07 AM
damn bud that really sucks... and hey great way to look @ it ... this time use a b230 lower end like the rest of the crazy people here ..... and ya if you need new parts let me know i have the hook up w/ them cheap so

ZVOLV
11-14-2004, 04:43 AM
Piston #3 is demolished. Rod is still intact, but rod bearing cap is very loose now. At least two damaged valves. Piston came out side of block down low by the crank. Pics coming soon.

Kjets On a Plane
11-14-2004, 04:54 AM
Piston #3 is demolished. Rod is still intact, but rod bearing cap is very loose now. At least two damaged valves. Piston came out side of block down low by the crank. Pics coming soon.
Actually, I have a theory on this. If you used the 8V ignition computer, I would think it would be programmed to provide the increased ignition advance the 8V needs due to the fact that it promotes a slightly slower burn at first. Working off this basic hypothesis, if your timing were indeed waaay too advanced your car might have suffered terrible pre-ignition (not detonation), it only takes a fairly small amount of pre-ignition even at what might seem trivial motor load to generate so much heat against the piston top that it would blast a hole in it. Detonation if severe enough could do the same thing. I think maybe it isn't necessarily the fault of the 16V bottom end, so much as it is the fault of your stock EZK computer. Though maybe someone has a logical argument for why it is the fault of the 16V bottom end? Or maybe, you have a fuel starvation problem on the #3 if the rest look OK. It seems quite plausible to me that the NA 16V manifold is creating an air distribution problem, or an injector is dirty. If is there anything at all in the other holes that might set them dramatically apart from teh 3# hole apart from the obvious? Do they look bad like they might have suffered something similar?

That is really unfortunate that hours after it comes to life that it dies. Best of luck Zach. ON a cheerier note for me, I got the turbo and it is in fantasic shape, dispite the UPS people trying to play basketball with it.

ZVOLV
11-14-2004, 05:08 AM
The car ran like ****. I didnt have my o2 sensor hooked up and I was running with a MAF that was in questionable condition. There is a very good chance that my neglect for tuning nuked it in a matter of less than 10 minutes.

The only thing that makes me think it might not have been the tuning is the loose rod cap and the fact that I put the bottom end together myself. I kept all the bearings in the same orienation and torqued everything down.

Oh well, i am not even worried as much as I should be right now. I was hesistant to go with the 10.0 CR. I payed the price for not getting new low comp pistons and getting the valve cuts in them. Right now I really think the lack of tuning blew the motor. I thought it might happen, but I really didnt think it would happen that fast.

Hank Scorpio
11-14-2004, 11:56 AM
No offense Zach but:

Your a (insert choice of word here) If:

1. You think you can cobble a 16vT motor together using 8v ecu's
2. Pulled the motor apart and then put the ORIGINAL BEARINGS/RINGS back in. It seriously wouldn't have cost you more than 100-300 bucks to get fresh bearings and rings, hone the block yourself and put it back together.

Was that 250 bucks worth destroying a block and a couple valves in the head? Keep the high compression, theres plenty of cars running that CR (if you have another 234F motor to use). Just dont try to cobble LH of some form together to make it work, just go straight to MS. The fuel and timing maps on an 8v based computer will indeed be to drasticly off to work imo.

ZVOLV
11-14-2004, 12:47 PM
No offense Zach but:

Your a (insert choice of word here) If:

1. You think you can cobble a 16vT motor together using 8v ecu's
2. Pulled the motor apart and then put the ORIGINAL BEARINGS/RINGS back in. It seriously wouldn't have cost you more than 100-300 bucks to get fresh bearings and rings, hone the block yourself and put it back together.

Was that 250 bucks worth destroying a block and a couple valves in the head? Keep the high compression, theres plenty of cars running that CR (if you have another 234F motor to use). Just dont try to cobble LH of some form together to make it work, just go straight to MS. The fuel and timing maps on an 8v based computer will indeed be to drasticly off to work imo.

No offense taken. This was a prototype budget build and it didnt work. Now you guys can learn from my mistakes. However, there were several variables that could have lead to the demise of my engine. It was either a bottom end failure (rod cap seems loose) or management. Destroyed piston points towards engine management. I was running no O2 sensor so that had to have played a big role also.

There are holes in both sides of the cylinder walls and there is a chunk of piston is sticking out of the block. Fun stuff. I can laugh at the whole situation. The Research and Devel. was almost the hardest part of this build so now that I have most of the parts and the know how, it will be pretty easy to make this project happen again.

The plan was to run really low boost at first and run race gas when I turned it up. I remember seeing 10psi of boost right before the trauma. I only meant to run about 7. I guess the wide open exhaust added a few more pounds of boost. Lesson learned.

linuxman51
11-14-2004, 01:22 PM
hate it for ya man, word to the wise tho, rod bearings go for a beastly $20 a set (yea yea, hindsight is 20/20), and without something in addition to stock lh, your project was doomed from the get go for boost. an rrfpr would have worked miracles, however I'm willing to bet the ignition curves for the 8v are what ultimately fuked you up there. you seem to be taking things well, dont let anyone getcha down, stock motors are cheap hahahaha

lets get some pics up tho :)

CEHepp
11-14-2004, 04:01 PM
I have atleast one, possibly two, B234Fs for sale. Complete engines! One even has a trans still bolted to it.

PM me if you want information/the engine.

ZVOLV
11-14-2004, 04:08 PM
I will have pics up very soon. I pulled the head last night and the engine today. I pulled the pan of and....well you will see what i found.

I also put the timing belt on 180 degreess wrong the first try. I might have bent a valve when cranking it there. The rod cap is very very loose and the bolts are backed out so i still think the bottom end is a potential culprit. I put assembly lube on there and torqued them back down to specs. I never changed the bearing positions.

Depending on what the cause of failure was it might have been a good idea to put in new bearings. I just didnt want to waste 300$ that was going to nuke soon anyways. So if it was the engine management that caused the failure I saved myself 300$ by not putting in new bearings.

One more thing to consider: Failure occured when I was cruising at 65mph, however this was just after I pushed the car the hardest. (just trying to build some boost and giving her some revs. Not driving hard) About 30 seconds later the carr just slowed down and I had to pull over and the engine was barely running with the pedal to the floor and the clutch in. I didnt hear any knocking. When I got it restarted i heard knocking and then there was seizure.

Boosted2003
11-14-2004, 04:23 PM
I have atleast one, possibly two, B234Fs for sale. Complete engines! One even has a trans still bolted to it.

PM me if you want information/the engine.


How much do u want for the b234?

ovlov760
11-14-2004, 04:24 PM
If at first you don't succeed....

ZVOLV
11-14-2004, 04:54 PM
http://img131.exs.cx/img131/1117/RedBlockHole.jpg
http://img131.exs.cx/img131/2281/InsideBlockHole.jpg
http://img131.exs.cx/img131/3760/CylWallHoles.jpg
http://img131.exs.cx/img131/6442/CylWallHole.jpg
http://img131.exs.cx/img131/6279/PanBits.jpg
http://img131.exs.cx/img131/5113/ValveDamage.jpg

n xntrx volvo
11-14-2004, 04:59 PM
oooooooohhhhhhh, oooooouuuuuuucccccccchhhh!!!!!!!
atleast its the crappy b234 block. if you need spare parts for the head hit me up, i've got a spare head w/ a few good in, all good ex valves etc.
-Aaron

ZVOLV
11-14-2004, 05:36 PM
So do you guys think it was a engine management problem or a mechanical failure? I would imagine if the rod bearing took a dump it wouldnt cause the piston to go. I also put the timing belt on 180 degrees of yesterday so maybe I bent a valve during that and it broke off on the test run. Probably not, its very long shot. I did a compression test after I got the belt on correctly and i got 160psi on all 4 cylinders so I dont think i bent the valves.

ovlov760
11-14-2004, 05:39 PM
It might be a little bit of both but I vote for engine management as the main culprit.

ZVOLV
11-14-2004, 05:41 PM
And the engine felt soo nice when it was reving and making some boost at higher rpms. The engine was working effortlessly and the car was taking off. I really wasnt driving hard, but when the .63/.42 turbo spooled up the thing would take off on its own. I am not giving up on the 16v. I am definately going to do it again. No more 8v for me.


I would really like input on what you guys think caused it. I doubt the pics will help with this, but maybe. I am still really leaning towards engine management issues. The thing seemed to knock even before I hit '0' psi. I dont know if it was rod knock or preignition. The bearing cap is very loose and I dont know if it was the cause or effect of the damage.

BoxDriver2
11-14-2004, 05:59 PM
Now, 8V NA or 8V turbo ECU?

But, i still believe it is the ecu that was at the heart of the problem, or the bearings.

I am putting my money on the ecu issue.

thelostartof
11-14-2004, 06:12 PM
Now, 8V NA or 8V turbo ECU?

But, i still believe it is the ecu that was at the heart of the problem, or the bearings.

I am putting my money on the ecu issue.

well from the looks of the damage for the piston to want to explode like that it might of been cracked already ... a 16vT turbo setup is nothing more than a 8v w/ a mucho better flowing head .... yes the higher CR could of caused issues BUT many f+t's run 9.8:1 on 8v's w/ the turbo ECU's fine ... so i'm putting my $ on the lower end was the problem. ... as many have said the 16V design is made so it is less prone to detonation/preigniton ... and yea its just a better flowing head than a 8v setup ... i could take a f motor, port the hell out of a 531 head and bolt it on and get around the same CR and head flow that that stock 16V did ... and the ECU wouldn't be the big issue if it was just low boost like that ... plus the detonation before even making boost .... either when he set the timing it was off(tho compression check was good so timing wasn't that far off) .... or the lower end to begin w/ was prob bad


all in all sad to see it die, bet @ least you know how to do it ... so next time do you do it right ... if i had another car to drive i'd bolt a 16v head on my b230ft block, fab up a header and let LH 2.4 control it for a while, not gonna make big power but enough to drive it. so yea i call mechanical failure

pbonsalb
11-14-2004, 06:49 PM
Since it ran only a few minutes, I would guess the rebuild was poorly done. From the rebuild description, that guess seems reasonable. Since the stock 8V engine management uses an air mass meter and, at least on turbo cars there is some air mass input to the ignition, I think the 8V management should have been OK for the low boost levels you were running.

Philip Bradley

Hank Scorpio
11-14-2004, 06:54 PM
Since it ran only a few minutes, I would guess the rebuild was poorly done. From the rebuild description, that guess seems reasonable. Since the stock 8V engine management uses an air mass meter and, at least on turbo cars there is some air mass input to the ignition, I think the 8V management should have been OK for the low boost levels you were running.

Philip Bradley

I completely agree bud. While the mangament would be an issue, hands down bad motor to start with, putting crappy bearings and such back in was just foolhearty.

You didn't save yourself a dime.

Boosted2003
11-14-2004, 06:59 PM
I completely agree bud. While the mangament would be an issue, hands down bad motor to start with, putting crappy bearings and such back in was just foolhearty.

You didn't save yourself a dime.

He did before his piston tried to do perform a superman stunt, go through a steel wall and make sweet love to the back side of his exhaust manifold.

ZVOLV
11-14-2004, 07:07 PM
I completely agree bud. While the mangament would be an issue, hands down bad motor to start with, putting crappy bearings and such back in was just foolhearty.

You didn't save yourself a dime.


This is definately one of the examples of when the saying 'spending the money to do it right the first time' is easily argued.

Oh well, for about 200-300$ i should be back on the road. I did the math I lost about 500$ on this motor. It sucks, but i have the car all setup for 16vT now so dropping in another motor wont be a problem.

Why the hell would the piston demolish itself if the rod bearings went? Maybe the rod cap came loose and the piston took out a valve and it all went downhill from there.

Kjets On a Plane
11-14-2004, 07:39 PM
I would guess it was a bit of both. If it pinged before 0 PSI, somehow I think the timing was waay off or you ran lean or both. Seems that timing is more likely at lower boost because the AMM is able to make LH add adaquate fuel for low boost. I would guess it looked so much worse on #3 just because the rebuild showed an exceptional weakness there, though I still don't quite want to throw away a possible extreme lean condition on #3 as a second thought.
I would not give up on the high compression, I just think maybe you should ditch the 8V EZK ignition next time and either rebuild another B234 or just find a B234 with low miles and run with it. You seem to be taking it well, and now I know precisely what not to do when I make it to making my own B234F+T.

Hank Scorpio
11-14-2004, 08:17 PM
This is definately one of the examples of when the saying 'spending the money to do it right the first time' is easily argued.

Oh well, for about 200-300$ i should be back on the road. I did the math I lost about 500$ on this motor. It sucks, but i have the car all setup for 16vT now so dropping in another motor wont be a problem.

Why the hell would the piston demolish itself if the rod bearings went? Maybe the rod cap came loose and the piston took out a valve and it all went downhill from there.


Dude the rod cap is loose because the bearings took a **** on you.

pgringo69
11-14-2004, 08:48 PM
does eveyone get a bad #3 when their volvo 4 goes? i have had a bad #3, and i seem to have read about...oh...half a dozen others.

mine was a 91 b230f

*edit* i should clarify. bad #3 rod bearing.

ZVOLV
11-14-2004, 09:09 PM
does eveyone get a bad #3 when their volvo 4 goes? i have had a bad #3, and i seem to have read about...oh...half a dozen others.

mine was a 91 b230f


I have heard rumors along those lines too. Also something about the old race volvos using bigger injectors on number three. Who knows... I cant tell what happened. I think my timing belt was dead on. The car ran like crap and the piston blew up so that points towards management issues. I was going to bring the number 3 up, but I didnt think it applied to the b234. I dont want to perpetuate any rumors that are untrue, but I might be doing so.

Dude the rod cap is loose because the bearings took a **** on you.

I hope you are right, kind of. It doesnt make sense to me that bearing failure would cause catastrophic piston failure. When bearings go they wipe out. I dont know if bearing failure would cause the cap to come loose. However, the bolts seem to have backed out of the threads, not stripped out by force. I could be wrong. I havent pulled the rod yet.

I would really like any opinions you guys have on this. I still have reached no conclusion as to whether engine management is to blame, or bearing failure. Management seems more logical at this point. I know nothing about engine rebuilding so thats why I am asking for explanations on what would have caused such trauma.

Thanks.

Boosted2003
11-14-2004, 09:26 PM
You had wrong ignition computer first of all thats why your engine when ****s.

Also never reuse bearings, oil pumps, gaskets, or anything along those lines.

own6volvos
11-14-2004, 09:50 PM
You had wrong ignition computer first of all thats why your engine when ****s.

Also never reuse bearings, oil pumps, gaskets, or anything along those lines.

Why not bearings that are in good condition in a low mileage engine?

pbonsalb
11-14-2004, 10:13 PM
I have seen a few motors go in the #1 cylinder.

If you are trying to go low budget, I would just find a decent short block and use it as is. It would be better to leave it alone that do a less than proper rebuild. Used Volvo B230 motors are cheap these days since so many cars are being totaled out by insurance companies instead of being repaired because they are all 10 years old or older now. There is nothing wrong with a good $500 motor. Of course with the 16V conversion, you may have to clearance the pistons if using a B230 block. People have done this with the pistons in the motor.

I would not be surprised if a well managed stock B23 or later B230 shortblock in good condition can hold 350+ hp. Hopefully, we will find out as more people use MSnS on stock block motors.

Philip Bradley

Boosted2003
11-14-2004, 10:15 PM
Why not bearings that are in good condition in a low mileage engine?

Bearing are sorta crushed into the form of hte bearing jorunals. Once you tighten the bolts down and remove them and put them back you will never be able to get back in the exact same postion ever again. Thats in lamen terms of why.

own6volvos
11-14-2004, 10:18 PM
Bearing are sorta crushed into the form of hte bearing jorunals. Once you tighten the bolts down and remove them and put them back you will never be able to get back in the exact same postion ever again. Thats in lamen terms of why.

Then how do all the guys checking with plasti gauge have such good results?

stylngle2003
11-14-2004, 10:21 PM
because they use the bearings that came off that very journal, in that very position, they dont swap them around...they are like fingerprints for each journal, and they vary for each one

plus theyre nuts cheap and it just makes sense to get new ones

ZVOLV
11-15-2004, 01:17 AM
Bearings are cheap, but the machining to put them in can get costly. Thats why i took the shortcut. I still dont think rod bearing failure has anything to do with the piston blowing to bits. I can still be rather confident that I saved myself the 200-300$ by not putting new bearings in an engine that cost about 300$.

One thing in defense of lh2.4: Keep in mind i had no o2 sensor at the time and larger injectors. Thats probably why the car ran like crap. It wouldnt idle on its own and the car was surging and all sorts of ****. It happened so fast it was like a car accident. Its all kind of a blur, and certain details come back to you. Sorry for the lame analogy, but its true. I just remember the car was running like ****, but when i got on the throttle it would smooth out and take off.

I would still like input regarding what you think failed. I vote for poor engine management and the piston blew. Not anything related to the shortblock.

linuxman51
11-15-2004, 01:29 AM
Bearings are cheap, but the machining to put them in can get costly. Thats why i took the shortcut. I still dont think rod bearing failure has anything to do with the piston blowing to bits. I can still be rather confident that I saved myself the 200-300$ by not putting new bearings in an engine that cost about 300$.

One thing in defense of lh2.4: Keep in mind i had no o2 sensor at the time and larger injectors. Thats probably why the car ran like crap. It wouldnt idle on its own and the car was surging and all sorts of ****. It happened so fast it was like a car accident. Its all kind of a blur, and certain details come back to you. Sorry for the lame analogy, but its true. I just remember the car was running like ****, but when i got on the throttle it would smooth out and take off.

I would still like input regarding what you think failed. I vote for poor engine management and the piston blew. Not anything related to the shortblock.


if your rod bolts were backing out, it was a matter of time on that one, but i'd agree that the untimely demise of the piston is a result of 2.4's notoriously aggressive ignition timing, esp right at boost threshhold. Compression might be of cause too
Case in point, isaac's 10.3 motor... one good frag was all it took, people have gotten away with nasty pops on 9.8:1 and not had anything go wrong, and if you look at the high compression turbo hondas, they always blow ring lands. you can claim weak pistons,but as i've demonstrated, volvo opted for a tigher ring pack in the 90 and on NA pistons, which would lower the threshold of sustainable violence prior to departure.

So I say you were probably off on the afrs, but wildly off on the ignition timing and just pulverized a piston. poped the others out to see if any of them are broken too?

Hank Scorpio
11-15-2004, 02:23 AM
Bearings are cheap, but the machining to put them in can get costly. Thats why i took the shortcut. I still dont think rod bearing failure has anything to do with the piston blowing to bits. I can still be rather confident that I saved myself the 200-300$ by not putting new bearings in an engine that cost about 300$.
.

Not to beat a dead horse here zach but you should have asked.

Provided the crank was in good condition (and 3/4 my volvo motors have been) you can polish the crank by hand.

You have no bearings that require being pressed in.

You can hone cylinder walls (4/4 of mine have been in good shape enough to just hone) yourself.

Sorry, no excuses Zach. Theres no excuse for being ignorant.

ZVOLV
11-15-2004, 02:38 AM
I just pulled the rod. That thing is all bent up and the cap is bent. There are several impact marks around the cap too. This makes me believe the cap was literally pried off the rod by force. Unless the bolts really did backthemselves out, which is doubtful but possible.


Thanks for all the opinions guys. I am just brainstorming here to make sure I dont make the same mistake again.

linuxman51
11-15-2004, 02:40 AM
invest in management, and unless you're going to build a motor, dont take it appart ;)

ZVOLV
11-15-2004, 02:43 AM
The only reason I took it apart was because I was planning on using the b230ft pistons, but then I changed my mind.

I still dont think my 'rebuild' has anything to do with the demise of my piston.

Hank Scorpio
11-15-2004, 02:44 AM
I just pulled the rod. That thing is all bent up and the cap is bent. There are several impact marks around the cap too. This makes me believe the cap was literally pried off the rod by force. Unless the bolts really did backthemselves out, which is doubtful but possible.


Thanks for all the opinions guys. I am just brainstorming here to make sure I dont make the same mistake again.

hmmm motor goes kaboom from the top down bud. Keep in mind the forces from not only a piston exploding out the side of the block and its effects harmonically on the crank shaft.

But keep telling yourself what you want to hear man... we've been beating a dead horse all night.

Hank Scorpio
11-15-2004, 02:45 AM
oh. Did you ever run this motor NA or just assume it was in ok condition?

linuxman51
11-15-2004, 02:48 AM
The only reason I took it apart was because I was planning on using the b230ft pistons, but then I changed my mind.

I still dont think my 'rebuild' has anything to do with the demise of my piston.

well how bout this then, if you take it appart you're commited to at least replacing whats been exposed (rings, bearings, etc), it shouldnt be any other way, esp in a motor thats supposed to be something of a performance setup.

ZVOLV
11-15-2004, 02:55 AM
Dont take it personally guys, but you both keep going back and forth on whether the bearings or managment was the culprit.

How can you argue that bad rod bearings will make the piston go boom? I am not saying it is impossible, but I just dont understand how. The only way I can see it causing a prob is by allowing the piston to hit the valve and breaking it off in the chamber.

I was really apprehensive about putting the used bearings back in, but right now I stand by my view that i saved myself the money by not doing so because the motor was doomed anyways. I went into this project assuming it might blow easily so i put down as little $$ as possible.

Please elaborate on how rod bearing failure will blow the piston to shreds.

n xntrx volvo
11-15-2004, 03:17 AM
imho, i think that the heavy pinging on the pistons was it. i doubt b234 pistons are as thick as ft ones, add to that possible prior contact with the valves weakening it. i'd def get the ms, add keep your eyes open for a late ft. or maybe you'll get lucky with all those posts you do in the boating forums for aq171c's.
-Aaron

grebnut
11-15-2004, 03:36 AM
i dont want to get in on the squabbling, but i just saw this thread and wanted to say way to go! (not in a sarcastic sense). im glad that you are expirimenting with the 16v turbo and thats ****ty that this try was a fail, but hopefully the next will be a success. good luck with that man! later,

ben

jpbturbo
11-15-2004, 10:21 AM
Maybe this is a stupid question,
Did you have the wiring harness with the resistor packs?
Otherwise your bigger injectors would have been running funny.

Just a thought.

The CR itself shouldn't have been a problem but I wouldn't be suprised if the ignition fouled things up.
It doesn't seem unreasonable to me that detonation could have caused piston damage and messed up the rod bearings.

A friend of mine put a turbo on his 93 subaru and blew a headgasket one night.
He replaced the headgasket only to have it blow almost immediately.
It was then that he realised that he had also put a hole in one of his pistons and the bearings for that rod were also kinda loose from being hammered on like that.

Anyways,
Get that thing back on the road.
I wish you the best of luck.

Peace,
Josh<--(hoping my 10.3:1 doesn't own me)

own6volvos
11-15-2004, 01:27 PM
because they use the bearings that came off that very journal, in that very position, they dont swap them around...they are like fingerprints for each journal, and they vary for each one

plus theyre nuts cheap and it just makes sense to get new ones

who the hell swaps bearings around on a crank? On my 95 engine I removed each one, inspected it condition, then stuck it back in.

ZVOLV
11-15-2004, 02:45 PM
It seems very difficult to tell what happened. I think there is a very decent chance the rod bearing cap bolts backed out. The bearings are elongated. The car SLOWED at first no alarming sounds. After I got it restarted it went clunk. Knowing how close the tolerances are between the valve and piston I can see how failure could occur. Since one of the valve seats is broken off there is a decent chance the valve came off in the cylinder and then all hell broke loose.

I am just trying to talk it out with you guys so i can figure out what went wrong and learn from my mistakes.

n xntrx volvo
11-15-2004, 03:23 PM
dont let these guys get you down, how many running 16vt do they have again?

ZVOLV
11-15-2004, 04:16 PM
http://img32.exs.cx/img32/7965/Rod.jpg
http://img32.exs.cx/img32/5648/RodCap.jpg
http://img32.exs.cx/img32/7046/Bearings.jpg
http://img32.exs.cx/img32/5254/PistonChunk.jpg

ZVOLV
11-18-2004, 10:55 AM
Diagnosis:


Rod bearing cap bolts came loose and then caused valve to break off and then demolish piston.

The other rod cap bolts were also loose. They were barely more than finger tight. I either forgot to torque them, or i didnt torque them enough.

Its OK, i have a 'new' engine lined up and the beast will be running shortly.

own6volvos
11-18-2004, 11:17 AM
Diagnosis:


Rod bearing cap bolts came loose and then caused valve to break off and then demolish piston.

The other rod cap bolts were also loose. They were barely more than finger tight. I either forgot to torque them, or i didnt torque them enough.

Its OK, i have a 'new' engine lined up and the beast will be running shortly.

Makes me glad I resisted temptation and left the rod bearings together :oops: What torque wrench do you have?

The Aspirator
11-20-2004, 05:06 AM
http://img32.exs.cx/img32/5648/RodCap.jpg
What I see in this picture is the rod bearing took a **** then the rod started banging up and down on the crankshaft instead of smoothly spinning with it. This is what caused the elongation. But I am by NO means an expert on any of this stuff, I'm just finishing my first rebuilt engine so I'm still learning too!

John

ZVOLV
11-20-2004, 12:04 PM
http://img32.exs.cx/img32/5648/RodCap.jpg
What I see in this picture is the rod bearing took a **** then the rod started banging up and down on the crankshaft instead of smoothly spinning with it. This is what caused the elongation. But I am by NO means an expert on any of this stuff, I'm just finishing my first rebuilt engine so I'm still learning too!

John



The bolts for the rod caps were loose. On the number three cylinder (broken one) the bolts were backed out about 3 whole turns. This caused the bearings to crap out and the cap to bend. I dont want you guys to think putting used bearings in caused the failure. The rod cap bolts were not tight engough.

Its OK. I have another block and a couple more heads so I will be on the road again shortly. I just need some gaskets, seals, and time.

Sean
11-24-2004, 04:59 PM
Doug et all..
I have taken apart engines many times and put them back together with used bearings... engines that are performance engines.. Cleanliness is KEY and orientation and location of all parts, mark (on the back of all bearings with a felt tipped marker) both number of bearing and top or bottom.
Engines which i have done this with, I have later taken apart (3-15K later) have never shown abnormal wear or problems associated with this, of course plastigage the used bearings and generally the reason for doing this is time rather than cost. Of course I only reused bearings when they showed little or no wear and plastigaged in spec.
Another key when reusing or even any disassembly/reassembly of an engine is to make sure to use loctite on all places where there is movement.. well I ussually use loctite on every part, a problem with disassembling and reassembling an engine without a rebuild is that parts are taken apart oily and then reassembled either with just a light cleaning or still oily and wihtout a cleaning and loctite this can lead to bolts backing out.
Judging from the pictures I would guess that the culprit was not the bearing but rather a loose or loosened bolt. as that QUICKLY leads to serious problems.
Zach... buy a big tube of loctite and keep it handy... it's great stuff.. I can't wait for the next engine iteration...
Sean

Hank Scorpio
11-24-2004, 06:30 PM
Sean, are we talking known working engines w/ no visable wear on the bearings or are we talking junkyard specials. THERE IS A DIFFERENCE.

I've reused bearings in rear diffs... but bearings in a motor that I did not know before hand if was in good condition or not is just fool hearty.

ZVOLV
11-24-2004, 06:51 PM
I just bought another b234 with 107K on it. I am going to reuse the bearings.

I am not going to take the caps off this time. I remember now that i didnt use loctite on the bolts. I dont even think I have a 12point 10mm socket anymore. Point is, there is a very good chance i completely forgot to tighten the bearing caps. The rod that failed had the bolts backed out about three turns and the other rod cap bolts were almost finger tight.

I considered running the balance shafts this time, but they are about 8 lbs each and feel like they contribute a lot of friction.

All I need is a gasket kit and some labor and the beast will be back up.

Hank Scorpio
11-24-2004, 07:02 PM
I dont loctite my rod bolts.

:roll:

Have you DRIVEN this motor. Do you KNOW FOR A FACT that its in good condition (sometimes 100k mile motors are pos' too)

ZVOLV
11-24-2004, 07:13 PM
I dont loctite my rod bolts.

:roll:

Have you DRIVEN this motor. Do you KNOW FOR A FACT that its in good condition (sometimes 100k mile motors are pos' too)



I didnt see any compound on the threads when I pulled them out so i didnt think it was needed putting it back together. I still kinda remember holding off on torquing the bolts because I didnt have a 10mm 12point. I remember taking them out with a 10mm 12point wrench and a hammer, but not torquing them down so......


I have NOT driven this new motor. I am going to put it in and see what happens. I know some people cringe at this, but thats the way I operate. This time I am running with a used head instead of a rebuild so there is less risk there. I still need to fix the head i nuked on that test drive. (4 bent valves and a few scratches in the combustion chamber. The other three sets of valves and chambers are fine.)

ZVOLV
11-24-2004, 07:21 PM
245gti's sig:


" Dale

16V Heads are like Virgos. You can never have too many..... "

Hah! Thats so very true! I have 4 in my garage right now!!!! Only 3 are mine and one is socalsean's. (you better get moving on your project or I'm stealing you head!)

I had this all planned out. Plan B is now in effect. I knew i was going to bend a set of valves sooner or later so I already had a new head lined up.

Tenacious Todd
11-24-2004, 11:02 PM
This thread is well :yikes:

Sean
11-29-2004, 02:01 PM
Sean, are we talking known working engines w/ no visable wear on the bearings or are we talking junkyard specials. THERE IS A DIFFERENCE.

I've reused bearings in rear diffs... but bearings in a motor that I did not know before hand if was in good condition or not is just fool hearty.


I have done both, Obviously I have taken known working engines and reused bearings when they looked good and plastigaged out. I have also done similarly to JY engines (mind you I started and ran the engines before teardown) and if you have a running engine and the bearings show little or no wear and plastigage within specs then it's been my experience that reusing bearings isn't that bad.
Now loctite-ing rod bolts is something I beleive strongly in a lot of engines I have worked on require replacement of rod bolts and nuts upon removal like later volvo headbolts, loctite on rod bolts is in my opinion always a good idea, it helps lubrcate the bolts so your torque readings are more accurate and also makes sure that they don't back out which is very essential.
The reason you didn't notice loctite on the rod bolts is probably because when they assemble them new they have bolts that are meant to be only used once.
Regards,
Sean

Hank Scorpio
11-29-2004, 06:02 PM
Thats exactly my point, you RAN the motors before tearing them apart (and you probably have more experience with motors than Zach... no offense to Zach ofcourse, so you can tell whats a good bearing/bad bearing or out of spec). Thats an entirely different thing all together than puttign time and faith into an unknown motor.

ZVOLV
12-02-2004, 03:44 AM
UH OH, potential problems with the 'new' block. You know how each bore has a letter stamped next to it. My number four cyl had a letter D made out of little dots (punched in) and its not actual letter D stamp. The rest of the bores have letters that look legit, but they are kind of crooked.

The big prob is piston 4 seems loose at TDC compared to the rest of the pistons that move not at all in the bores. Sorry for this newbie explanation, but I am a noob to rebuilds. What causes the movement of the piston in the bore like that? My b230ft that I pulled from my car had all the pistons with plenty of wiggle in them. That same engine I took it to the shop and they said i have 7 thousands wear ( i think thats the number) and i need second oversized pistons. My last b234 had all the pistons nice and tight in the bore.

I could take this engine back to the place i got it from and get a different one if I approach it in the right way. What do you guys think?

This is a budget build. I am sorry if you guys think my budget build sucks and I am going about things all wrong. I really know its sketchy to do put in used engines without checking specs or rebuilding, but when a rebuild costs 1000$ I can go wrong at least three times with a used engine before it starts to cost more than doing it right the first time.

Morley
12-02-2004, 04:48 AM
Well, this is normal. #4 and #1 have a slightly larger bore due to lesser cooling...but not much of a diffreence, I doubt you can feel it.

For a B230 block the letters are:
C = 96,07 - 96,08 mm
D = 96,08 - 96,09 mm
E = 96,09 - 96,10 mm
G = 96,11 - 96,12 mm

As you see, there is not much difference, I say scrap the block if you can get a new one without too much trouble...

Captain Bondo
12-02-2004, 04:51 AM
Doug, I tried to 'splain all dat stuff to him before he blew up the PREVIOUS motor. :lol:

Unregistered
12-02-2004, 07:25 AM
i havent read the whole post, but
did you use a 8v ecu????
no wonder it blew up! the 16v has a much faster burnrate than the 8v and if you use an 8v ecu it will ping like crazy.

ZVOLV
12-02-2004, 05:08 PM
Yes, I used the 8v ecu. Based on the info I have provided do you think detonation nuked the motor, or that I had loose rod bolts?

I would really like any input on the matter. I dont want to make the same mistakes again.

Hank Scorpio
12-02-2004, 05:14 PM
Yes, I used the 8v ecu. Based on the info I have provided do you think detonation nuked the motor, or that I had loose rod bolts?

I would really like any input on the matter. I dont want to make the same mistakes again.

I think we've given you plenty of information on everything x1000000000000^1000000

I really think you should know by now.

Sean
12-02-2004, 07:38 PM
Dude don't f.uck around with boost without proper engine management.... just MS+S it... and run a turbo 8v map and tune it with 1-5psi first...
Don't try to scab together EFI and spark.. it'll bite you in the a.ss just buy a MS+S and wire it in.... seriously like $300 and then no worries in that arena...

I mean I think a pull through carb would be better than NA EFI... and ditch the NA ignition too.. worst case run a mechanical with a retard pot...

Sean

ZVOLV
12-02-2004, 07:43 PM
I dont think you guys have given me too much info already. You have given me a hard time through all of it, but I can take whatever you can give. Sorry if my budget build seems idiotic to anybody, but the point of this build is to do a cheap 16vT. I cut corners all the time and sometimes it backfires. Sometimes it doesnt. This time it looks like cutting corners backfired right in my face. However, I need to find out what went wrong so I dont cut that corner again.

The reason I have brought the topic back up is I would like to know if the 8v computer really gives so much more ignition timing than the 16v that it will cause it to blow. I would also like to know if preigntion/detonation will cause the caps to come loose. Since there are about three variables that could have caused it to blow, I would really like find out what went wrong. I still think i didnt torque down the caps and this caused the piston to break a valve seat off in the chamber.

Is there any way preigntion/detonation will cause the caps to come loose?

Remember, the piston that blew had the bolts a good 1/4 inch backed out when I pulled it apart. The other three rod caps were also loose.

Morley
12-02-2004, 07:54 PM
I dont think you guys have given me too much info already. You have given me a hard time through all of it, but I can take whatever you can give. Sorry if my budget build seems idiotic to anybody, but the point of this build is to do a cheap 16vT. I cut corners all the time and sometimes it backfires. Sometimes it doesnt. This time it looks like cutting corners backfired right in my face. However, I need to find out what went wrong so I dont cut that corner again.

The reason I have brought the topic back up is I would like to know if the 8v computer really gives so much more ignition timing than the 16v that it will cause it to blow. I would also like to know if preigntion/detonation will cause the caps to come loose. Since there are about three variables that could have caused it to blow, I would really like find out what went wrong. I still think i didnt torque down the caps and this caused the piston to break a valve seat off in the chamber.

Is there any way preigntion/detonation will cause the caps to come loose?

Remember, the piston that blew had the bolts a good 1/4 inch backed out when I pulled it apart. The other three rod caps were also loose.

Well, your motor died because on TWO things..not just one :-P

1. Because the rod caps were not torqued down.
2. Because you used the 8V ignition.

If you had torqued the caps down properly, your engine would still have been doomed b/c of the 8V ignition which is totally wrong for your 16V. Get MSnS or use the 16V ignition.

There have been a lot of testing and trying before on using 8V ignition maps on a 16V, and it all concludes with that they are totally uninterchangeable. There's a lot of info on turboperformanceclub.com on this.

Hank Scorpio
12-02-2004, 08:19 PM
Well, your motor died because on TWO things..not just one

1. Because the rod caps were not torqued down.
2. Because you used the 8V ignition.
Well, your motor died because on TWO things..not just one

1. Because the rod caps were not torqued down.
2. Because you used the 8V ignition.
Well, your motor died because on TWO things..not just one

1. Because the rod caps were not torqued down.
2. Because you used the 8V ignition.
Well, your motor died because on TWO things..not just one

1. Because the rod caps were not torqued down.
2. Because you used the 8V ignition.
Well, your motor died because on TWO things..not just one

1. Because the rod caps were not torqued down.
2. Because you used the 8V ignition.
Well, your motor died because on TWO things..not just one

1. Because the rod caps were not torqued down.
2. Because you used the 8V ignition.
Well, your motor died because on TWO things..not just one

1. Because the rod caps were not torqued down.
2. Because you used the 8V ignition.
Well, your motor died because on TWO things..not just one

1. Because the rod caps were not torqued down.
2. Because you used the 8V ignition.
Well, your motor died because on TWO things..not just one

1. Because the rod caps were not torqued down.
2. Because you used the 8V ignition.
Well, your motor died because on TWO things..not just one

1. Because the rod caps were not torqued down.
2. Because you used the 8V ignition.
Well, your motor died because on TWO things..not just one

1. Because the rod caps were not torqued down.
2. Because you used the 8V ignition.
Well, your motor died because on TWO things..not just one

1. Because the rod caps were not torqued down.
2. Because you used the 8V ignition.
Well, your motor died because on TWO things..not just one

1. Because the rod caps were not torqued down.
2. Because you used the 8V ignition.
Well, your motor died because on TWO things..not just one

1. Because the rod caps were not torqued down.
2. Because you used the 8V ignition.
Well, your motor died because on TWO things..not just one

1. Because the rod caps were not torqued down.
2. Because you used the 8V ignition.
Well, your motor died because on TWO things..not just one

1. Because the rod caps were not torqued down.
2. Because you used the 8V ignition.
Well, your motor died because on TWO things..not just one

1. Because the rod caps were not torqued down.
2. Because you used the 8V ignition.
Well, your motor died because on TWO things..not just one

1. Because the rod caps were not torqued down.
2. Because you used the 8V ignition.
Well, your motor died because on TWO things..not just one

1. Because the rod caps were not torqued down.
2. Because you used the 8V ignition.
Well, your motor died because on TWO things..not just one

1. Because the rod caps were not torqued down.
2. Because you used the 8V ignition.
Well, your motor died because on TWO things..not just one

1. Because the rod caps were not torqued down.
2. Because you used the 8V ignition.
Well, your motor died because on TWO things..not just one

1. Because the rod caps were not torqued down.
2. Because you used the 8V ignition.
Well, your motor died because on TWO things..not just one

1. Because the rod caps were not torqued down.
2. Because you used the 8V ignition.
Well, your motor died because on TWO things..not just one

1. Because the rod caps were not torqued down.
2. Because you used the 8V ignition.
Well, your motor died because on TWO things..not just one

1. Because the rod caps were not torqued down.
2. Because you used the 8V ignition.
Well, your motor died because on TWO things..not just one

1. Because the rod caps were not torqued down.
2. Because you used the 8V ignition.
Well, your motor died because on TWO things..not just one

1. Because the rod caps were not torqued down.
2. Because you used the 8V ignition.
Well, your motor died because on TWO things..not just one

1. Because the rod caps were not torqued down.
2. Because you used the 8V ignition.
Well, your motor died because on TWO things..not just one

1. Because the rod caps were not torqued down.
2. Because you used the 8V ignition.
Well, your motor died because on TWO things..not just one

1. Because the rod caps were not torqued down.
2. Because you used the 8V ignition.
Well, your motor died because on TWO things..not just one

1. Because the rod caps were not torqued down.
2. Because you used the 8V ignition.
Well, your motor died because on TWO things..not just one

1. Because the rod caps were not torqued down.
2. Because you used the 8V ignition.
Well, your motor died because on TWO things..not just one

1. Because the rod caps were not torqued down.
2. Because you used the 8V ignition.
Well, your motor died because on TWO things..not just one

1. Because the rod caps were not torqued down.
2. Because you used the 8V ignition.
Well, your motor died because on TWO things..not just one

1. Because the rod caps were not torqued down.
2. Because you used the 8V ignition.

stylngle2003
12-02-2004, 08:35 PM
what was that first thing doug? ;-)


seriously zach, i think that the lack of tq on the caps caused a horrible chain reaction in your engine. with proper torque, i think it would have lasted a bit longer (you can always get out of the gas if you hear ping...). i agree with the others that something needs to be done about fuel and spark, becuase after 1 or so more engines, youre so called "budget" 16vT is more expensive than a properly done one...its your money in the end, just food for thought

good luck with whatever happens bro

n xntrx volvo
12-02-2004, 08:55 PM
i think this thread needs more otta-boys to you for trying. it didnt work the first time out, but few things do.:cheers: here's to you and putting your but on the line.
-Aaron

ZVOLV
12-02-2004, 11:23 PM
becuase after 1 or so more engines, youre so called "budget" 16vT is more expensive than a properly done one...its your money in the end, just food for thought

good luck with whatever happens bro


I have already realized this. If I nuke another 200-300 dollar engine it will start to cost more than putting down the $$ to do it right the first time. All I lost really was a 200$ junkyard engine. Thats why i put as little $$ as possible into the block. How frustrating would it be if I spend 1000$ on a shortblock rebuild just to nuke it.

i think this thread needs more otta-boys to you for trying. it didnt work the first time out, but few things do.:cheers: here's to you and putting your but on the line.
-Aaron


Thanks Aaron.

I appreciate the comment. A few of you other guys made positive comments and I thank you too. Doug.....i have a cliche for you. "If you dont have anything nice to say keep it to yourself." I appreciate the knowledge that you contribute, but I dont like your brazen attitude.

No benchracing for me. I took a risk and it didnt work. Now you guys can learn from my mistakes. I had a feeling it would blow so thats why I made sure I had backup heads ready.

ZVOLV
12-02-2004, 11:28 PM
And I could have sworn I heard knocking as I was approaching the boost threshold so that bit of info supports the ignition timing issue. I had an open dipipe during the run so hearing knocking wasnt really a possiblity when getting on it. And the piston SHATTERED. All the 16v blocks I have seen at the yard with valve failure the piston had the valve embedded in it or the piston was just dented/cracked. My piston went BOOM! Maybe because I had the engine at a high rpm when it failed as opposed to the average volvo driver.

And the car ran like CRAP!!! It wouldnt idle worth a damn and smooth acceleration was not existent. It could have been because I had bigger injectors in and no o2 sensor.

Morley
12-02-2004, 11:30 PM
$200-300 for a B234? hmm......wonder how much it would cost to ship a 16V head ->Norway...hm...hmm......hm....hm.... :-P

How much do you want for such a head? And how badly is the previous head destroyed, how much would you want for this?

Hank Scorpio
12-02-2004, 11:31 PM
Zach I dont care if you dont like my attitude. I want to see you spend the extra few bucks and get one that works and works RIGHT, not blow one motor up after the next.

We've beat it to death what will/did/would have (eventually) killed your motor. Time to move on and do another one that works.

Oh btw, if you dont like my attitude thats not a nice way to treat someone who helped you score that 16vT manifold. :roll:

Captain Bondo
12-02-2004, 11:42 PM
Only stands to reason an ignition curve for big scary 8V "bathtub" chambers that take like, 8 years to complete a combustion event will have waaaay too much advance for something w/ center plug/pent roof. Seriously. If you just stop for a second and think about any of it you'd work it out- and if you can't work it out after actually thnking about it, well then you have to be prepared to learn from the mistakes you are inevitably going to make.
The real reason many projects explode? (including some of my own). Lack of patience. We are impatient and cheap and they feed each other. We won't save our pennies from a another couple of paychecks becuase we are so fixed on "getting it all working" that we f it all up. Only once you SLOW DOWN, SAVE YOUR MONEY, BE CAREFUL, and THINK will you have any chance at making anything work. I have to remind myself of this constantly as I'm terrible for getting sucked into the instant gratification mindset. :)

Go through the motor methodically and buy a megasquirt/16v ign box and be done with it.

n xntrx volvo
12-02-2004, 11:43 PM
/\ (doug) he's just like this. he did the same to me when i talked about doing a 16vt (http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=13054)
i think he's worried about somebody having a better eng then him.:-P
-Aaron

ZVOLV
12-02-2004, 11:47 PM
Thanks for the manifold doug.


Hey, I appreciate whatever advice people give. However, I dont appreciate negativity. I have read your posts for the last 2 years and I just know its the way you can be, so i dont take it very personally. I judge people and just accept that its the way they are.


I will be doing it 'right' this time. However, I am a cheapass so I'm still going to cut corners somewhere so it wont be completely the "right" way.

I can get piston cuts for 50$ so I am thinking late b230ft with piston cuts. I already have the timing belt and tensioner I made to adapt the 16v head to the 8v block so there the options are wide open.

Remember this pic: http://img78.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img78&image=EngineTensioned.jpg

Hank Scorpio
12-02-2004, 11:52 PM
thats fine, just get rings, bearings, and megasquirt and we'll all be happy.

If I come off like an ass its ONLY cause I want people's projects to work. Kenny and I and a few others have been down the road enough times to know what works, what you can get away with and what blows up in your face. I try to get people to opt for number 1.

Morley
12-02-2004, 11:57 PM
Oh! A 60 pound package ->Norway costs $67.75 economy parcel...

Do you want to sell a 16V head?

The Aspirator
12-03-2004, 12:27 AM
Zach, you mentioned that you heard knocking noise and that the car ran like crap........ Humm I wonder if the loose rod bolts could be the cause???????????? I mean the whole rod and piston would be litterally flopping around in the cylinders which would cause erratic compression and burn rates, plus it would undoubtedly make a bunch of noise.

You can throw in as many "budget" motors as you want until you get it right, it's up to you. But think of it this way, say it takes you 3 motors to get an engine that works good and doesn't die, and say you put in $1000 total. By this time you have a working engine, but it's still OLD with like 150,000+ miles. That's the price of a PROPERLY rebuilt shortblock that should take more abuse than you can give it (provided that ignition and fuel isn't F'ed up).

I've come to realize this fact after trying out 2 bad motors for my brothers car. We finally broke down and spent the money to do it up proper, and we're so frickin happy we're doing it this way. The car is almost done and back together, can't wait! Then it's time for my new engine. I'm saving my pennies and am going to do it even better than my brothers engine. It'll be right, it'll be strong as hell, it'll take a ton of abuse. I don't have to worry if the 150k rod bearings are worn out or not, or worry when these 9mm rods will finally break. I won't have to worry about that sh*t because it will have custom rods, new bearings, turned crank, and will be blueprinted and balanced. This is all really really important stuff if you're seriously looking for power.

But I do understand, if you're like most of us here (cheap, 16-25yrs old) you're looking to go as far as you can for as little money down, that's cool too. The learning process is fun. Doug himself said that he likes building cars more than owning them, so you'd think he'd be all for your idea cause you get to do so many engine swaps! :rofl:

Good luck on your project, I hope to see you succeed. Learn as much as you can to do this proper and cheap at the same time.

John

nohbudi
12-03-2004, 12:28 AM
Oh! A 60 pound package ->Norway costs $67.75 economy parcel...

Do you want to sell a 16V head?
hard up for some head aye? ;-)


good work btw its cool to see someone do the stuff that you want to do but dont have time for.

ZVOLV
12-03-2004, 12:34 AM
There have been a lot of testing and trying before on using 8V ignition maps on a 16V, and it all concludes with that they are totally uninterchangeable. There's a lot of info on turboperformanceclub.com on this.




The above statement has probably had the biggest impact on me out of all the things said on this thread. This guy has assertively said that it will not work and appears to have some data that may back it up.

I am slowly coming to accept that LH2.4 for a FT is not going to work on a 16vT application. Keep in mind that I wasnt planning on running the motor on 2.4 for a long at all. I remember now hearing HARD knocking approaching 0psi. EDIT and i dont think it was rod knock because i didnt hear any knocking under a lot of vac or at idle EDIT

And I will be glad to sell a 16v head. I have a few in the garage and I can always get more.

I would still like any input on what you guys think I did wrong, or what I should do differently next time. Methinks 8v igntion isnt the way to go. I can get 16v ignition boxes no problem do you think I should try running it with one of those and see what happens?

Kjets On a Plane
12-03-2004, 12:54 AM
This thread is too long, and it has too many conflicting ideas. It also has a lot of tangents, I suggest you start a new thread. Start a new thread telling us the goals and what you have available to make it happen, or asking about one aspect of your project maybe? This thread is not bad, it is just not that focused for a project that it sounds like needs some careful planning.
The 16V ignition box might be a bit better, because as Kenny, Doug, Morley and I say, the 16V CC is going to burn totally and completely different from the 8V, except maybe at really light load at like a high 1700RPM idle or something where it isn't critical to the life or total performance of the motor. If you want to run the 16V ignition box for really low boost, that might be a very temporary option, I do not know if it will handle boost or properly interpret the load signal from your 016 LH2.4 AMM an 8V LH box though. I ahve no idea what AMM # 16Vs use stock, or what LH2.4 box they use stock either.
I have been thinking of sparking my car on MS for a while now. The parts list to do this is quite short, and you could tune it as best as you know how, which for me would be limited at first. IF you are willing to buy an:
MS box, an LH2.2 dizzy, an extra coil, and a little vac line, and some ignition amp module of your choice (there are many stock, saab, MSD etc...) you ought to be able to spark your car.
That way you could leave the LH side alone for the first bit and leave the stock tach and ignition and all that alone. Then you would basically run a separate MAP and distributor triggered programmable ignition on top of LH, without LH being any the wiser or without having to hack up the LH harness or anything.
Spark is appearently a lot harder to tune though, but I do not know of any stock volvo parts that are intended to run anything like a 2.3 16V turbo on the ignition side.

n xntrx volvo
12-03-2004, 01:13 AM
what ign does a b204gt run? a stock 16v icu cant read over about 1 psi.

linuxman51
12-03-2004, 01:43 AM
The above statement has probably had the biggest impact on me out of all the things said on this thread. This guy has assertively said that it will not work and appears to have some data that may back it up.

I am slowly coming to accept that LH2.4 for a FT is not going to work on a 16vT application. Keep in mind that I wasnt planning on running the motor on 2.4 for a long at all. I remember now hearing HARD knocking approaching 0psi. EDIT and i dont think it was rod knock because i didnt hear any knocking under a lot of vac or at idle EDIT

And I will be glad to sell a 16v head. I have a few in the garage and I can always get more.

I would still like any input on what you guys think I did wrong, or what I should do differently next time. Methinks 8v igntion isnt the way to go. I can get 16v ignition boxes no problem do you think I should try running it with one of those and see what happens?

I'm going to try and not be an *******, forgive me if i fail....

Common sense should tell you that the two aren't interchangeable... aside from displacement and marque, the two engines (8 and 16) have NOTHING in common.. this is not a matter of rocket science, its a simple matter of absolute truth.. the better an engine flows, the less ignition advance is required and can be used. 8v volvo motors flow dick. Period. Anyone that tells you otherwise has their head up their ass. Simply plugging something you dont know a lot about in and praying it works is also pretty far up the list in terms of stupidity.. You would be much better served using na 16v stuff than turbo 8v stuff, at least with the 16v **** the off boost numbers would be right.
If you had asked before you'd done this stuff (hell if you'd bothered research these things before hand) you wouldnt be speculating about things right now, and there wouldn't have been a great revelation today. Such things should be, at least on some level, known beforehand, not "hm, hey, this fits the plug lets try it". Two wires up your ass and a 2 prong plug fit a wall socket too.. but i dont see you trying that for a little extra excitement.

The simple fact of the matter here is you seized upon an opportunity (no problems yet), jumped the gun in a bad way(problem) noticed that something was up almost right away(danger) and kept going (man the lifeboats). I'm sorry dude, I wholey support what you're trying to do, but you've gotta stop being a ****ing idiot about it. the whole "motors are cheap" excuse has been played out by isaac, even his broke ass has seen the light with regards to mismanaging things. If you're looking for support and ideas, you're gonna hafta not be stupid about ****. That doesnt mean you have to spend a ton of money or buy fancy gadgets, but its going to require a bit more work than just plugging and playing (esp if you're trying to do it on the cheap). And with the ****bomb gas you guys get i wouldnt even think about running that kinda compression ratio with pump gas.

stylngle2003
12-03-2004, 01:28 PM
i agree with aaron...zach, what if you got someone over in like italy (Bruno is a TB member over there) to hook you up with a B204GT ignition and fuel computers. i mean, your engine has 115% more displacement than a 2.0L B204GT...but it may work under boost. of course, it will prolly be expensive and hard to find such a setup, so perhaps ms is the most budget oriented way to go. im excited to see what happens

ovlov760
12-03-2004, 01:40 PM
I think you should start a new thread so the experts can help you come up with a solution that fits your budget and doesn't blow up for the second time around.

AirborneMod
12-03-2004, 07:32 PM
ehh just end the thread right here.. You put a half ass effort into building a motor and you got a half ass result