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the poi
03-14-2005, 04:21 AM
So I want to prevent the trans from retarding ign timing and lowering line pressure during shifts, and theres two suggestive things in VADIS. First:

Permanent program functions

Apart from driving modes the driver can select manually (E, S and W), there are also a number of permanently preprogrammed functions in the transmission control module. These ensure that the transmission always selects the correct gear with regard to external conditions. External conditions generally affect load or temperature in or around the engine and transmission. These permanent special functions are:
-A When driving at high altitude gearshifting is adapted for the reduced engine power so that slipping times are adapted for driving conditions.
-B If the transmission control module (TCM) senses that the throttle is closed but speed is increasing, for example during engine braking on a steep gradient, it will automatically shift down to third gear to provide engine braking and and the load on the car's foot-operated braking system.
-C If the transmission temperature rises abnormally due to heavy loading in hot conditions (high ambient temperature), the lock–up function is activated as often as possible. This reduces slippage and the production of heat in the transmission.
Line pressure is increased at low outside temperatures to reduce gear engagement times.
-D The system incorporates safety functions to prevent manual engagement of 2nd or 1st gear if the speed of the car is too high.
-E Back-up (reverse) gear cannot be engaged at speeds over 5 kph.
-F In the event of a serious fault in the electronic control system, the malfunction indicator lamp (MIL) on the combined instrument and the driving mode selector lamp will flash, while the transmission control module (TCM) will adopt one of two special programs. An emergency program and a "limp home" program.
The "Emergency" program permits automatic gearshifting without torque reduction or other refinements, the degree of simplification depending on the nature of the fault.
The "limp-home" program switches out the transmission control module (TCM) so that the car can be driven by manual gearshifting only. 3– and L–position gives 3 gear, D–position gives 4 gear R–gives back-up (reverse) gear.
While the particular program adopted depends on the nature of the fault, the car must be driven to the nearest workshop in either case. The emergency disappears if the ignition is switched off and the fault does the recur. In addition the warning light stops flashing after the ignition is switched off and on several times. The number of times will depend on which fault has initiated the program.
However, since the diagnostic trouble code (DTC) is stored in a special memory, it can be displayed later.

So first option, force "Emergency mode". Im concerned that it might prevent lockup and change shiftpoints to silly places though. So more specifically:

The transmission control module (TCM) (4) exactly determines gear shift and lock–up engagement points based on the driving mode selected. To do this it receives information about the following:
-1 selected gear position, from gear-shift position sensor (5)
-2 selected driving mode, from the mode selector (3)
-3 road speed, from the speedometer (27).
-4 speed of front planetary train sun wheel, from transmission speed sensor (12)
-5 engine speed (RPM) and load, from engine control module (ECM) (28)
-6 throttle opening, from engine control module (ECM) (28)
-7 brake pedal operation, from stop (brake) light switch (29)
-8 fully depressed accelerator pedal (AP), from kick down switch (30)
-9 transmission oil temperature, from a temperature sensor (13) in the transmission.
The information is processed by the transmission control module (TCM) which computes which gear will provide the best driving performance for the selected driving mode.
The control module orders gear-shifts by sending shift signals to two shift solenoid valves (S1, S2) incorporated in the transmission. Depending on the signals the transmission control module (TCM) receives the torque converter lock–up is activated. Lock–up is controlled by the lock-up solenoid (SL).
Unlike earlier automatic transmissions, lock-up is available in the AW 30-40 and AW 30-43 in three gears, 2nd, 3rd and 4th. When and how the function is engaged depends on factors such as the transmission oil temperature and outside temperature. See section Lock-up .
During gearshifting, the transmission line pressure is controlled indirectly by solenoid valve (STH). Torque reduction takes place in the following sequence:
*a signal is sent from the AW 30–40/AW 30–43:s control module to the Motronic 1.8 control module (28)
*the engine torque is reduced (depending on the current torque)
*Motronic 1.8 sends a confirmation
*line pressure in the transmission is adjusted
*the transmission shifts gear.
This makes gear shifts smoother and reduces mechanical wear.
The transmission control module (TCM) is also connected to the data link connector (DLC) (6). Faults occuring in the electronic system are recorded in the control module memory for subsequent display as diagnostic trouble codes (DTC). If a fault is serious enough to require immediate attention, the warning light (7) on the combined instrument panel flashes.

So I'm tempted to cut the leads from the TCM to the Motronic box, under the assumption that it wont cut ignition timing or line pressure. However, I'm wondering if the trans will just go through with the gearshift and lower the line pressure with full power coming from the motor, and it'll roast the clutches. Proably a longshot, but anyone have any experience here...Peter?

In any case, I'm off the supra forums in hopes I'll find something intersting aw30-40 related...


edit:// btw, those of you who occasionally drive their mothers 960 around ( :-P ) hit the "winter" button. "L" forces first gear, "3" forces second gear, and "D" allows 3 and 4th. sounds liek an aw71 eh? full manual! Although I'm not sure if it still does the damn torque-limitng though. I'll have to test that...

AnthonyH
03-14-2005, 05:21 AM
Actually, you might consider looking into a valve body from a 30-40Le from a toyota... cause these don't have the 4th solenoid which controls the line pressure, instead, it has a kick-down cable like device which controls the line pressure according to throttle opening. I'm using a transmission from a 1jz-gte for my b230 project... I love slush-boxes.

tjts1
03-14-2005, 07:13 AM
Ur on the right track. Here's what I have so far. Disconecting the lead from the TCM to the motronic gave me the up arrow but the trasmission still shifted through the gears. Error code was stored. I've given up trying to fool the computer into thinking its still in control. One way or another it still pops an error code. The nice thing about it though is it turns off the up light as soon as you reconnect even though an error has been stored. That up arrow might as well be a middle finger pointing at the driver. I hate it.
At this point im building a control box for full manual shifting. I have driven it by switching S1 and S2 manually. Its confusing as hell with 2 switches but it was enough to confirm the concept. I have also switched lock up on and off manualy. It shifted hard even at light throttle. So at this point im building a full manual shift controller. Functions are as follows:
1. Monitor what gear the trasmission is in at any moment (wishful thinking)
2. Display gear in the dash using a seven segment led number display. This will probably only work in manual mode. Ideally I want it to displayin both auto and manual as well as sincronize the manual controller to whatever gear the TCM is in. That way you can switch to manual on the fly. More wishful thinking.
3. push button controls. 1-upshift, 2-downshift, 3- lock up ON only.
4. If torque converter is locked, unlock during upshift or down shift.
5. Interlock with gear selector so manual mode only functions when gear selector is in D, 3, L.
6. When shifting through N switch TCM on, manual control off.

Those are all the functions I have so far. When the trasmission is in limp mode, it goes to full line pressure (I think) so I can ignore the 4th solenoid. I was going to use an 8051 based micro controller but thats way beyond my expertise. So at this points all the logic is being hard wired into the circuit board. I have the shifting part working on a bread board right now. I might not be able to incorporate all the functions I want. The display is turning into a real pain since it wants to start with 0 instead of 1. Frustrating as hell. But I'm getting help from someone that knows a lot more than I do so there's hope. Electronics is not my expertise. I just come up with the functions and let someone else design it.

I've already tried the Lexus forums. The only controller I've been able to find only worked as a stand alone from Australia. It can't interact with the TCM or the engine. He only sells it to folks unsing custom engine management 1UZFE swaps into other vehicles because the A341 is the only trasmission that can bolt up to that engine. Unlike Volvo, Toyota has an integrated TCM/ECM module on some models.
Welcome to the wonderful world of the ECT.

On the plus side, we have 2700rpm stall speed torque converters which all the lexus folks are drooling after.
My next order of business is 3.91 locker to overcome to 200hp cams' lack of low end torque.

Good night.
Justin

Volvo740Ti
03-14-2005, 08:10 AM
edit:// btw, those of you who occasionally drive their mothers 960 around ( :-P ) hit the "winter" button. "L" forces first gear, "3" forces second gear, and "D" allows 3 and 4th. sounds liek an aw71 eh? full manual! Although I'm not sure if it still does the damn torque-limitng though. I'll have to test that...


I will try it in my 92 960 on the way to school in about 5 minutes

the poi
03-14-2005, 01:52 PM
Ur on the right track. Here's what I have so far. Disconecting the lead from the TCM to the motronic gave me the up arrow but the trasmission still shifted through the gears. Error code was stored. I've given up trying to fool the computer into thinking its still in control. One way or another it still pops an error code. The nice thing about it though is it turns off the up light as soon as you reconnect even though an error has been stored. That up arrow might as well be a middle finger pointing at the driver. I hate it.
At this point im building a control box for full manual shifting. I have driven it by switching S1 and S2 manually. Its confusing as hell with 2 switches but it was enough to confirm the concept. I have also switched lock up on and off manualy. It shifted hard even at light throttle. So at this point im building a full manual shift controller. Functions are as follows:
1. Monitor what gear the trasmission is in at any moment (wishful thinking)
2. Display gear in the dash using a seven segment led number display. This will probably only work in manual mode. Ideally I want it to displayin both auto and manual as well as sincronize the manual controller to whatever gear the TCM is in. That way you can switch to manual on the fly. More wishful thinking.
3. push button controls. 1-upshift, 2-downshift, 3- lock up ON only.
4. If torque converter is locked, unlock during upshift or down shift.
5. Interlock with gear selector so manual mode only functions when gear selector is in D, 3, L.
6. When shifting through N switch TCM on, manual control off.

Those are all the functions I have so far. When the trasmission is in limp mode, it goes to full line pressure (I think) so I can ignore the 4th solenoid. I was going to use an 8051 based micro controller but thats way beyond my expertise. So at this points all the logic is being hard wired into the circuit board. I have the shifting part working on a bread board right now. I might not be able to incorporate all the functions I want. The display is turning into a real pain since it wants to start with 0 instead of 1. Frustrating as hell. But I'm getting help from someone that knows a lot more than I do so there's hope. Electronics is not my expertise. I just come up with the functions and let someone else design it.

I've already tried the Lexus forums. The only controller I've been able to find only worked as a stand alone from Australia. It can't interact with the TCM or the engine. He only sells it to folks unsing custom engine management 1UZFE swaps into other vehicles because the A341 is the only trasmission that can bolt up to that engine. Unlike Volvo, Toyota has an integrated TCM/ECM module on some models.
Welcome to the wonderful world of the ECT.

On the plus side, we have 2700rpm stall speed torque converters which all the lexus folks are drooling after.
My next order of business is 3.91 locker to overcome to 200hp cams' lack of low end torque.

Good night.
Justin
ya, thats precisely the behavior i've been plotting for my paddle shifters :-P So you have tried wiht a disconnected trans-motronic lead? does the car drive right with teh exception of no torque reduction? And as far as the 4th solenoid... if its completed disconnected, is it full line pressure all the time? think theres any harm in that? :-P

Volvo740Ti
03-14-2005, 02:29 PM
Ok i did the winter mode, manual shifting and it seems at WOT to shift firmer then it does in E or S, but it seemed to pull just as hard

Boosted2003
03-14-2005, 04:05 PM
My question is if you take the signal away from the montronic and it puts in a fault mode. Why not datalog the signals of normal operation then discount the tcm from the ecu and imput an alernate source that you have altered.

Example the tranny signal is 5volts. Supply the computer with 5 volts all the time to trick it to think its in perfect conditions so it doesnt retard or advance timing and such. Hell you could make a relay with some resisotrs and push button and make seperate sport mode button.

tjts1
03-14-2005, 06:59 PM
ya, thats precisely the behavior i've been plotting for my paddle shifters :-P So you have tried wiht a disconnected trans-motronic lead? does the car drive right with teh exception of no torque reduction? And as far as the 4th solenoid... if its completed disconnected, is it full line pressure all the time? think theres any harm in that? :-P

I didn't do any WOT runs with the TCM to motronic bundle disconected so I couldn't tell if the computer retarded timing anyway. But there was no check engine light.

Solenoid 4 is pulse width modulated. It is activated over a certain engine speed where the pump puts out too much pressure for the trasmission to shift smoothly. So it just slams the clutches together that much harder. I doubt there is any harm in that. I read somewhere it was supposed to be over 45mph but that doesn't make sense. The pump in the AT runs off the the crank shaft not by the output shaft.
I just drove the car in "W" by shifting manually. Wow that was fun. Im starting to rething this whole manual shift control thing. It's turned into a big pain in the ass and "W" gets you 90% of the way there. Maybe all I need is lockup control and a torque limiting switch.

the poi
03-14-2005, 07:24 PM
I just drove the car in "W" by shifting manually. Wow that was fun. Im starting to rething this whole manual shift control thing. It's turned into a big pain in the ass and "W" gets you 90% of the way there. Maybe all I need is lockup control and a torque limiting switch.
thats exactly what I'm thinking too :-P and boosted, thats what I plan on doing. Really a simple matter of hooking up a multimeter and reading voltages. The concern however is this: if the ignition timing doesnt retard and line pressure does, the clutches are gonna get worn pretty fast. The solution here obviosuly is to prevent the trans from ever screwing with the line pressure, assuming its safe. Thats really the question...is constant high line pressure bad at all. Cause if it isnt, then a pushbutton instant-shift-kit would be simple.

tjts1
03-14-2005, 07:49 PM
thats exactly what I'm thinking too :-P and boosted, thats what I plan on doing. Really a simple matter of hooking up a multimeter and reading voltages. The concern however is this: if the ignition timing doesnt retard and line pressure does, the clutches are gonna get worn pretty fast. The solution here obviosuly is to prevent the trans from ever screwing with the line pressure, assuming its safe. Thats really the question...is constant high line pressure bad at all. Cause if it isnt, then a pushbutton instant-shift-kit would be simple.

Have a look at this document (I know I'm full of them).
http://www.cygnusx1.net/supra/library/TSRM/at/AT_001.html
It talks about toyota but it goes into some detail about limiting line pressure and torque limiting.
I'm convinced line pressure solenoid is purely a comfort feature. Peter had the the valve body on his AW30-40 worked over by Level10. He said ever since then he's had a hard 1-2 shift. This leads me to believe the line pressure is too high even thought his trasmission is fine.
Also in limp mode the the car can still be driven with the ECT completely shut off thirt and fourth gear.
EDIT: page six talks about the consequinces of too high line pressure. A340 does not have 4th solenoid but i think the information still applies.

More trivia: evolution of the A340.
http://www.transtec.com/rebuilder_news/1st_q00r-n.pdf
Scroll down to page 3. This says lock up solenoid is PWM which is wrong on our cars. Its still an ON/OFF affair. PWM solenoids need 2 wires.

the poi
03-19-2005, 10:23 PM
in case anyone cares (i know peter mentions a month or so ago he was looking for soemthing like this...)

http://www.powertraincontrolsolutions.com/content-4.html

If you have a lot of money and want to buy something with way more function than necessary :-D

tjts1
03-19-2005, 10:31 PM
Go for it. Let us know how it goes.
The whole manual shifting in W mode is more trouble than its worth. Shfts are way too slow. I have to shift at before 5500 rpm or by the time it changes gears I hit the rev limiter at 6200. Also it doesn't down shift from 2nd to first no matter what i do untill the car comes to a complete stop. Oh M90. You taunt me so.

the poi
03-20-2005, 12:06 AM
Go for it. Let us know how it goes.
The whole manual shifting in W mode is more trouble than its worth. Shfts are way too slow. I have to shift at before 5500 rpm or by the time it changes gears I hit the rev limiter at 6200. Also it doesn't down shift from 2nd to first no matter what i do untill the car comes to a complete stop. Oh M90. You taunt me so.
ya i know. its entertainment purpose is limited almost exclusively to cruising around westwood in 1st or second at 3k rpm. Flooring it from that speed almost makes ol' gramps feel fast :-P


Look like what i'll be doing when i dont have a driveway to do anything mechanical is to fiddle with some electronics. The code for MegaShift pretty much answers my questions as far as line pressure and lockup is concerned. I may fiddle with some numbers, but not sure. Of course, I'm gonna have to figure out how to make the controller, but i think ill limit it to a full manual mode and let the volvo TCM control everything in normal modes (sans the damn comfort "features"). Seeing as all i'll need is RPM and MAP inputs, and three outputs (albeit one PWM, four with lockup control if i see fit...) I may end up waiting for MSII...i can do C and theres a heck of a lot more available memory...

Yea, Right
03-20-2005, 02:01 AM
I will keep the bookmark. That is exactly what I was looking for. Maybe something to play with when I have extra $'s lying around. Right now however I have gotten use to the hard 1-2 shift and the rest of the time the transmission shifting is perfect. Particularly the full throttle shifts, they are very fast and just go "snick" into the next gear. Also the two gear downshift from freeway cruising speeds sends the car off like a rocket. I have seen the look on drivers faces after leaving them . It's like what the f___just happened! Typical response to getting rocked by a Volvo.

the poi
03-20-2005, 03:34 AM
I will keep the bookmark. That is exactly what I was looking for. Maybe something to play with when I have extra $'s lying around. Right now however I have gotten use to the hard 1-2 shift and the rest of the time the transmission shifting is perfect. Particularly the full throttle shifts, they are very fast and just go "snick" into the next gear. Also the two gear downshift from freeway cruising speeds sends the car off like a rocket. I have seen the look on drivers faces after leaving them . It's like what the f___just happened! Typical response to getting rocked by a Volvo.
Sounds pretty fun :) This is with the stock TCM with a built transmission right--are the harder shifts due to thicker clutches/steels? Does levelten sell parts to build up these trans or do they require you send them off for a complete buildup?

the poi
03-20-2005, 04:36 AM
Hey, so whats everyone's opinion on having this as an intersting temporary occasional manual use:

1st-gear, no lockup
2nd gear, no lockup
3rd gear +lockup
4th gear +lockup

All 4 with maximum line pressure. Good trans coolor and synthetic ATF. Will maxing the trans pressure do anything but make for hard shifts (which would be good for the trans...)? Any hurt in engaging the lockup simultaneously with the shift?

tjts1
03-20-2005, 04:52 AM
Hey, so whats everyone's opinion on having this as an intersting temporary occasional manual use:

1st-gear, no lockup
2nd gear, no lockup
3rd gear +lockup
4th gear +lockup

All 4 with maximum line pressure. Good trans coolor and synthetic ATF. Will maxing the trans pressure do anything but make for hard shifts (which would be good for the trans...)? Any hurt in engaging the lockup simultaneously with the shift?

Lock up can only handle so much torque. You are going to destroy the TQ lock up if you engage it as soon as you shift or keep it engaged at full throttle. Plus even if it worked, you wouldn't be accelerating any faster with the TQ locked since you will be lower in the rev range.

the poi
03-20-2005, 05:30 AM
Lock up can only handle so much torque. You are going to destroy the TQ lock up if you engage it as soon as you shift or keep it engaged at full throttle. Plus even if it worked, you wouldn't be accelerating any faster with the TQ locked since you will be lower in the rev range.
well then, in that case, ill just keep it shut off. makes it evn easier. the documentation basically says the lockup engages to cool down the trans that tends to got hot because of the higher stall. I figure a combination of using manual mode sparingly as well as synth fluid and a big cooler out front will keep it plenty cool then. sound about right?

Volvo740Ti
03-20-2005, 06:33 PM
It almost seems like i dont even have a 3rd gear without lockup. On my trans as soon as it hits 3rd gear it locks up right after, and if i am WOT it locks up 3rd around 95-100.

Doing the W manual mode, at about 3.5K, WOT is really fun from there on. my magnaflow muffler (4x9) is so loud along with my intake. I was looking around after some rough driving and i am thinking about purchasing a tranny cooler after i change the Tbelt and rotors up front. I can get synthetic trans oil for free so thats not a problem

tjts1
03-20-2005, 08:04 PM
Im doing tras cooler soon. Im also going to completely bypass the radiator tras cooler. A guy on brickboard had a radiator leak coolant into the lines and kill his trasmission at 270k miles. Thats just one of those weakest link kind of deals.

the poi
03-20-2005, 08:12 PM
Im doing tras cooler soon. Im also going to completely bypass the radiator tras cooler. A guy on brickboard had a radiator leak coolant into the lines and kill his trasmission at 270k miles. Thats just one of those weakest link kind of deals.
we think alike. 62$ trans cooler kit at summit, pretty big core...

Volvo740Ti
03-20-2005, 08:23 PM
Im doing tras cooler soon. Im also going to completely bypass the radiator tras cooler. A guy on brickboard had a radiator leak coolant into the lines and kill his trasmission at 270k miles. Thats just one of those weakest link kind of deals.


I'm sure your going to get yours done before me, post up some pics when you do, either of you

DaButcher
08-09-2005, 08:16 AM
Hmm, I'll subscribe to this thread :)
I would also like to remove the lockup on some occasions.