T5 swap, all you need to know

[Hank Scorpio]

T5 Swap:

One of the biggest complaints about tuning the RWD bricks here in the states is the lack of strong transmissions. The M46 has a limited strength (while I’ve seen some see constant abuse behind 220whp cars, some have died numerous times in 160whp cars), they are heavy, shift poorly (in my view) and have external overdrives. If third gear doesn’t let loose, it seems that the overdrives will instead around similar power levels. The M47 is an even as far as power handling goes (though it does have an internal 5th gear).

Enter, the Ford T5 transmission. The T5 was almost perfectly suited for transplant in to 240’s as the shifter position was dead on, the input shaft is long enough to be “compensated” for with the adapter plate, they came in Ford 5.0 mustangs so they are fairly common. The other nice part of the swap is the T5 has TONS of aftermarket, including short shifters, upgraded synchros ect. I’ve equipped mine with a “Pro 5.0” shift kit, that turns the T5 into one of the finest shifting manuals I have driven.

Down to the nitty gritty.

First your going to need to find a T5 from a 5.0L mustang. Its important that its from a V8 car as they are stronger, and have different gearing. While the turbocoupe ford T5’s work, they are reportedly not as strong. The v8 T5s (aka as a World Class) will handle around 300 ft/lbs of torque, plenty for most applications.

The next portion of the swap I procured from John Parker at www.v-performance.com . John offers modified bell housings, the adapter plate and clutches, flywheels and other performance options. This really makes the swap easy, everything I received fit perfectly the first time. John can work out a clutch that will meet what ever horsepower goals you may have in mind.

Another, though untested way to go is a 4 cylinder mustang clutch disc. They are the same size, though I do not know if the spline count is the same size as the V8 T5. John could just as easily get you a disc only as well.

The pilot bearing is a Ford 5.0 mustang pilot bearing, it’s a direct replacement for the Volvo one (fits perfectly in the end of the crank). Shifter position for the 240 is perfect, how ever the 740’s pose a problem. The 740 shifter is further back than a 240. Some of the v8 conversion 740 owners who use T5’s reported that they simply used a spacer block to move the shift handle further back. Another option is using the harder to find GM (typically camaro/firebird) T5. It not only has the correct position for a 740, but the input shaft’s pilot tip is the same as the OEM Volvo m46/47 one. This means you could use the stock OEM pilot bearing. This could kill two birds with one stone, though I haven’t ventured down this road yet.

This is a picture of a modified 740 shifter:
http://www.telusplanet.net/public/gilesij/Volvord/shifter.jpg
(thanks to Volvord)

As far as the install, its as straight forward as removing the old transmission and installing the T5. Actually, as far as getting it lifted in there, I believe it was easier for some reason! (Probably because its lighter and a bit smaller dimensionally).

There is two spots where you will have to fabricate something. The transmission mount requires a bit of creativity. There is diagrams online for how the V8 guys (once again) have made their mounts, I would follow those. I however because of limited time ended up welding a plate right to the top of my cross member and bolting my T5 right to it (as in solid mount). It works, its not pretty.

This is the diagram for the “correct” way to do it:
http://www.telusplanet.net/public/gilesij/Volvord/t_mount.gif
(thanks to Volvord)

The driveshaft is the other end. Here is another spot that has a few options. On mine I elected to just have a custom single driveshaft made up, from scratch. I have yet to experience any problems with it, and it is quite sizeable (will have to go measure it this weekend). Along similar lines, most people use mustang driveshafts and have them modified to fit. Apparently, the turbocoupes use an almost (if not) identical mount to the Volvo driveshaft, this would just require shorting of the front shaft. All of these can be handled by any professional driveline shop (my from scratch 1piece only cost around 120 dollars if I recall correctly). No matter what you do, this swap will require some driveshaft modification. Pricing will obviously vary from place to place.

There is a couple other odds and ends to track down. One is the speedometer. If your using a 240 with a mechanical speedometer then you’ll have to get Napa speedo cable (though the part number escapes me), but it will mate up. Anything that has an electronic speedo need not apply.

There is one last issue, the Achilles heel of this swap so far, the throw out bearing. This is where I ran into the most trouble. The ford 5.0 throw out bearing will fit the fork with some modification, however I found out it isn’t tall enough to work with the OEM pressure plate set up. Then I tried a taller one, however it would bottom out on the fork and wouldn’t spin. Here is my solution.

First, its Chicago Rawhide parts number 6030. It has a big rectangle flange on the middle of it. I basically rounded this flange, and then made a piece of steel to go on the bottom. This allowed the original flange to sit on top of the fork (there fore letting the bearing surface keep from bottoming out) and the flange on the bottom keeps the throw out bearing from flopping around.

Here is a (crude) picture of what I’ve done:
http://www.pbase.com/image/20488159.jpg

When I had last talked to John Parker, he was trying to include this modified throw out bearing with the kit.

My current set up is a cable actuated clutch, via the stock cable and fork. One untested option is using a hydralic setup from the later Tremec boxes. If this will retrofit to a T5, let alone a Volvo bellhousing, this would null out the issues with the throwout bearing.

So with some very mild fab’ing you’ll be able to swap out the junk “tractor” transmission that came stock in your Volvo, and swap in a nice, strong quick shifting transmission and enjoy bumping the boost with out living your life in fear!

Here is a couple pictures of mine:
http://www.pbase.com/image/19263774.jpg
http://www.pbase.com/image/19268142.jpg

Heres some useful Ford T5 links:
http://www.fordmuscle.com/archives/2000/09/t5swap/index2.shtml
http://www.fordmuscle.com/archives/transmission.shtml

Doug Kauer 9-30-03

(PS, Dana, if you want this as an article, wouldn't bother me in the least. Any suggestions, further questions or improvements lets make them in this thread before it goes to "print").

[linuxman51]

1 problem, you included two pics of the tranny mount bracket, not the shifter :)

[z537z]

You're welcome everybody :wink:

Doug thanks a million, I'll look forward to this for summer.


_z

EDIT: revisions

Clutch cable a problem for you?
Any other options for driveshaft? Cheap factor...

Go ahead and delete this when it goes to "print"

[secondtwig]

Sticky!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :wink:

[bitjockey]

Doug, you had those two pictures flipped... I fixed it for you.

I agree this should be an article.

[Hank Scorpio]

3rd try's a charm ;) It was late, what can I say :e-shrug: :rofl:

(Robin, can we give this two weeks as a sticky, then if there is no more corrections, questions, lock it and delete any extra posts?)

[GTJordan]

An artical, NOT a stickey. A newbie can't read through those stickys and understand whats going on. They are full of side trackedness, and extra jabber....

I vote for a real artical

Jordan

[Mach375]

Dude, Doug: THANK YOU!!! This is exactly what I was hoping someone would do soon. Just in time for my swap! Muchas gracias senior!!
I have to gloat here: just picked up my T5 from a SVO guy in Ft. Worth. Freshly mild-race rebuilt (zero miles since rebuild) out of a '93 5.0 (ID tag 208, see section below about gear ratios) for $545, and I was able to pick it up in person so no shipping (ah, how nice it is to be a trucker).

As for the clutch disc, having talked to three different people, all familiar with both the turbo-4 T5 and the V8 T5, it appears that the input shaft comes in two different spline counts. 22-spline shaft is NOT what you want. The other is the 10-spline shaft, and this one is where the turbo-4 T5 clutch disc from the Mustang (or Thunderbird?) will work. The V8 T5 clutch disc is a choice of 10", 10.5" or 11". The turbo-4 T5 clutch disc is 8.5", same as ours. So having gotten advice, but as of yet not having actually put the blood into it, it appears as though we can use the Ford turbo-4 T5 clutch disc.
One thing to note, too, is that, as a general rule, the turbo-4 T5 has a steeper gearing, starting (generally) around 3.97 for 1st. Whereas the V8 T5 has a somewhat lower gearing, starting at (generally) 3.35 for 1st. As far as torque, the turbo-4 T5 handles from 235 to 250 lb/ft, whereas the V8 T5 handles from 265 to 330 lb/ft. However, you won't find a stock V8 T5 handling any more than 300 lb/ft (except for the Cobra 5.0, which takes it to 310 lb/ft, and you're not likely to ever find a Cobra in the junkyard!). I got all this info from http://www.fordmuscle.com/archives/2000/09/t5swap/index2.shtml
Another thing to note is another reason for wanting the V8 T5 instead of the turbo-4 T5 is the length of the input shaft. The turbo-4 T5 is supposed to be longer, but I don't know by how much. This is only what I've heard, haven't actually done research or measurements.
You will all note that in his pic of the transmission mounted to the bellhousing, there is an electrical connector dangling down on the driver's side, toward the top and in the front. This is the neutral safety lockout on the Fords. Does not need to be connected for our purposes (though I'm sure we can find a use for it. I'm thinking turbo timer applications?). Another electrical connection you'll note is in the middle of the case on the driver's side: a round switch with two screw connections on it. That is the back-up switch, for the light.
On my '93 V8 T5, there are three mounting holes running the length of the tailhousing along the bottom. These are for a counterweight/balance weight (I suspect for the turbo-4?). I imagine there may be a use for them, perhaps in aiding the mounting to the crossmember?
For more info and advice, go here: http://www.fordmuscle.com/archives/transmission.shtml

Doug: In your pic from volvord, you have the B&M Ripper shifter pictured (Jeg's part # 130-45050, $170). I remember there being some discussion about having to bend (heat and bend?) the shaft in order to more easily fit the shifter in the 700, and also to make it more accesible to the driver (position). Do you know anything about this? And also: You seem to have something identical to the Hurst Billet/Plus shifter (Jeg's part # 530-391-5030, $165), or the B&M Pro Ripper shifter (Jeg's part # 130-45070, $200). Did you have to do any modifications to get it positioned where you want it, and make installation easy? Or rather (now that I've looked at what you drive--duh), do you think any such modifications will be needed in the 700? And one last question: You say for time constraints, you just bolted it to a plate, then the crossmember. If you had the time, how would you do it? Could you mount any kind of actual mount between the plate and the transmission with the way you did it?

Now as for the clutch, having an auto now :grrr: I need to collect clutch parts. I'm given two options--cable-actuated, or hydraulic-actuated. I'm leaning toward the hydraulic (in a big way, think Tower of Piza). Anyone shed some better light on this for me?

As if it needs to be said, I'm going to be doing this conversion into my '86 744. However, don't wait for me, as I do actually have all the time in the world, and will be using every minute of it. I will document my steps and get everything back to you either as I go along, or when I get it all done. More to come.....

[Hank Scorpio]

Wow Shane! This will really help to improve that thread.

Let me make some adjustments tonight.

I did forget to mention that you could indeed use a hydralic set up, from what I believe is a Tremec box. Can't hold me on that, but it is possible from what I recall. That would void the issues with the throw out bearing.

For the 240s, the shifter position does not need modification, for the 740 you will have to get more creative though (that picture is indeed in a 740).

[z537z]

A few things:

Driveshaft issues - Camaro shafts reccomended here:
http://forums.turbobricks.com/viewtopic.php?t=4038

Identification chart: (ALWAYS handy) ( Know he posted it, but just reiterating)
http://www.fordmuscle.com/archives/2000/09/t5swap/index2.shtml

And yeah really low gear ratios, so plan on having some power to get out of 1st...But WOW .65:1 5th! Maybe a 3.91 diff is in order?

As for transmission mounts, Doug what did you use? IE more detail, pics.
You say for time constraints, you just bolted it to a plate, then the crossmember. If you had the time, how would you do it? [/quote:0721e0d822]

Looked around at V8 conversion sites couldn't find any info on a tranny mount for 200 series. I'm sure I'll be able to fabricate something I'm not completely helpless :-P. I got a machine shop here at college and plenty of aluminum for free, specs?


Great stuff, get this looking nice and tidy, post it up.

That turbo4 clutch option is tempting, but that's just one more car I'd have to find... And hydraulich clutches are really nice, just more trouble than I'd like to go through.

Doug could you list simply what parts you took from the M46 and what parts are BW? Fork, T/O bearing, pilot bearing, driveshaft couplers, etc.


Looking good, I'll contact Vperf as soon as I start this project up. Maybe this winter??? Tempting.... I do have a garage and 3 weeks...

_z

[MikeHardy]

And yeah really low gear ratios, so plan on having some power to get out of 1st...But WOW .65:1 5th! Maybe a 3.91 diff is in order?
[/quote]

just insert speeds here

Gearbox:- T5 251 aftermarket 3.91:1 final drive
Tyre:- Michelin all patterns 195/60 x 15
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Top Gear gives 28.377 MPH/1000 RPM and a top speed of 170.261 MPH at 6000 RPM

Engine speeds in top gear:-
30 MPH = 1057 RPM 40 MPH = 1410 RPM 50 MPH = 1762 RPM 60 MPH = 2114 RPM
70 MPH = 2467 RPM 80 MPH = 2819 RPM 90 MPH = 3172 RPM 100 MPH = 3524 RPM

Top Speed in 1 gear = 36.361 MPH
And changes into 2 gear at 3946 RPM dropping 2054 RPM
Top Speed in 2 gear = 55.291 MPH
And changes into 3 gear at 4144 RPM dropping 1856 RPM
Top Speed in 3 gear = 80.048 MPH
And changes into 4 gear at 4478 RPM dropping 1522 RPM
Top Speed in 4 gear = 107.264 MPH
And changes into 5 gear at 3780 RPM dropping 2220 RPM
Top Speed in 5 gear = 170.261 MPH

and

Gearbox:- T5 251 aftermarket 4.1:1 final drive
Tyre:- Michelin all patterns 195/60 x 15
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Top Gear gives 27.062 MPH/1000 RPM and a top speed of 162.371 MPH at 6000 RPM

Engine speeds in top gear:-
30 MPH = 1109 RPM 40 MPH = 1478 RPM 50 MPH = 1848 RPM 60 MPH = 2217 RPM
70 MPH = 2587 RPM 80 MPH = 2956 RPM 90 MPH = 3326 RPM 100 MPH = 3695 RPM

Top Speed in 1 gear = 34.676 MPH
And changes into 2 gear at 3946 RPM dropping 2054 RPM
Top Speed in 2 gear = 52.729 MPH
And changes into 3 gear at 4144 RPM dropping 1856 RPM
Top Speed in 3 gear = 76.338 MPH
And changes into 4 gear at 4478 RPM dropping 1522 RPM
Top Speed in 4 gear = 102.293 MPH
And changes into 5 gear at 3780 RPM dropping 2220 RPM
Top Speed in 5 gear = 162.371 MPH

baised on 6000RPM limit

[z537z]

Wow.

Not bad I guess. I can hit 62 at the rev limiter in 2nd right now.

_z

[Hank Scorpio]

Edited now :-D

[Mach375]

More sites, more thoughts on the T5 matter:

http://www.mcleodind.com/pdf.asp They haven't got the HTML catalogue up and running yet. Pages of note: 1 (adjustable-length throwout bearing), 2/3 (hydraulic throwout bearing), 4 (blank adaptor plate--make your own! :rockon: ), 6 through 9 (clutch discs. Note Volvo disc listing on page 8: first 5 lines [7.5 through 9-7/16]), 32/33 (Ford clutch sizes and choices), 82 (Volvo clutch sizes and choices), 103-116 sans 104 (various interesting parts, namely flywheels). I was particularly interested in the hydraulic t/o bearings, as well as the adjustable-length t/o bearings. And note the large selection of Ford clutch disc sizes.

http://www.ddperformance.com/images/t5dia.jpg T5 dimensions.

http://www.fordmuscle.com/archives/2002/09/transmissions/index.shtml A good comparison of various Ford manual transmissions' dimensions, gearing, and torque handling.
Speaking of dimensions, I'm now wondering if maybe the T3550 (5-spd) or T56 (6-spd) won't fit our cars as well? Seems they would fit the 700s better than the T5, based on lengths (knowing the T5 shifter ends up about an inch too far forward)? How I figure (using the numbers in each illustration): Shifter position is 21.1" on T56, versus 19.5" on T5 or T3550 (1.6" further back) (that's assuming the indicated numbers, which you will note are the same for dimensions A and C. So one of those is wrong. In my estimations, I believe it to be A at a difference of 6.7" between D and A. Judging by the illustration, I estimate the centerline of the shifter to be almost exactly half of the difference between D and A [3.35"], leaving the best estimate I can give for the true length of A to be closer to 29.8". Which makes sense, considering the T56 is longer than the T5 by 3.1" and the T3550 by 3.7" ). I suppose this now puts the T-56 about 2" too far back in the 700s. Possible to remedy this with a "shorty" bellhousing??
So now that I look at it, our choices seem to be the T5 or the T3550, with the T3550 being a better choice for more power handling. But also twice as expensive!

http://www.allfordmustangs.com/Detailed/25.shtml Swap from a Ford AODE, but it sure helps for getting ideas on what we're looking at getting into.

http://www.allfordmustangs.com/Detailed/349.shtml Very detailed info on the T5. Yes, the chart is the same as the one I posted earlier.

http://www.allfordmustangs.com/Detailed/631.shtml How to ID [b]your T5, but you'll need the tag number.

http://www.moderndriveline.com/FAQ.htm#_Toc29404665 FAQ covers clutches and other general questions.

http://www.merkurencyclopedia.com/Trans,Diff/T-5%20Installation.html Swap into a Merkur. Again, it should give us an idea of what we may be looking at.

(I must thank Justin for many of those links. They are on another sticky here at TB, but I didn't see them linked or posted on this one, and just thought I'd consolidate).

Other thoughts: Can the input shaft on the turbo4 T5 be swapped for the input shaft on the V8 T5? This would yield another 1/4" further rearward. Or, perhaps use the input shaft on a '94 V8 or V6 T5 to yield an extra 2/3" rearward? The difference being that on the turbo4 T5, the shaft diameter is .59", whereas on all others the shaft diameter is .668". Hmmm... Then wouldn't the '94-'95 V8 T5 (tag ID 246) be our best choice?? Using numbers from http://www.fordmuscle.com/archives/2000/09/t5swap/index2.shtml

[volvorsport]

when you mean hydraulic clutch doug , do you mean by having the slave cylinder mounted on the input shaft like most racing cars ? All 240 here ive seen are hydraulic clutch , guessing its a RHD-LHD thing . That would have definitely cured any problems with release bearing actuation .

just eyeing up easy alternatives for the UK members .

[pgrey]

Just thought I'd add my experience with a T5Z (the 330 ft/lb model) in my V8 945. I just swapped it for a Tremec 3550II. I used a Tilton hydraulic TO bearing with both the Tremec and the T5. It works quite nicely. The bearing has different length extensions that one can use to adapt the bearing to the height of one's clutch pack.

I'm using the standard Volvo clutch master and the whole setup is slick - much nicer than using a hydraulic master and a slave cylinder actuating the Mustang arm. We couldn't get enough travel out of the slave to use with the Mustang linkage. Since you guys are using the Volvo arm maybe that'd work? Just a thought...

BTW, I've got a T5Z in my garage in pieces that could be put together as is (15K miles on it from new) and run (including the Tilton hydraulic TO bearing snout and a Pro 5.0 shifter). If anyone's interested, let me know.

The T5 fifth gear is T-A-L-L. I found it too tall even with the V8 torque. It's usefull as a gas saver but not as a gear one would use to actually accelerate. I've got a 3.54 diff. The Tremec's fifth is a lot shorter (.83 instead of .63) and now I wish I had a gearbox with a .72 fifth. That'd be about perfect. Sigh.

Peter

[Hank Scorpio]

Peter I've noticed the tall 5th. Actually tough, with 3.91s I have no problem accellerating through 5th provided I dont go into 5th till its turning atleast 3300 (in 5th).

Doug

[bitjockey]

Peter, how much would you like to get for that tranny?

[pgrey]

I should have thought of an asking price before I posted... Let me cogitate on it and let you know.

Peter

[volvo944ti]

so where can the adapter plate be aquired and anyone know of a place that can pre fab a tranny mount??? i think there needs to be a custom one right???

[Hank Scorpio]

The next portion of the swap I procured from John Parker at www.v-performance.com . John offers modified bell housings, the adapter plate and clutches, flywheels and other performance options.

:stupid:

[bitjockey]

And I'll just vouch for John-- great guy, easy to work with and does wonderful work.

[pengee]

I have been trying to get a good T5 for a reasonable price. I found a T5 for an 84-92 camaro / firebird. It will be for my 745. It has a spline count of 14. I am not sure if this is right or will work?? Any more info or help would be great.. Thanks

[noah244ti]

An e mail I just recieved today:

We are now in the process of doing a modified Volvo clutch fork, so ship yours along with the bell housing so it can be modified to fit the Ford throwout bearing.

Regards,
John
Vintage Performance Developments

:-D One less thing I have to worry about. Looks like the stock ford throwout bearing will now be a perfect fit. :-D

I do have one question though, for those of you who have a t5 installed...
What gear ratio t5 are you running? I had planned on a 3.35 first t5 but just came across a 2.95 from a friend who would part with it for $250 (95k on it). The 1st gear ratio sounds a little high to me and I dont know if my cars got the low end tourque to pull that 1st, considering our m46's 2nd is only a tad higher :e-shrug:
Comments please! Thanks, Noah

[Hank Scorpio]

You mean me? I think Im still the only person. Glad to hear JP is shipping modified forks. That will reduce the "all you need to know" thread down ALOT.

I have a 91 box, I dont rember the 1st off the top of my head though.

[Mach375]

Pengee: I don't think spline count is much of an issue when you're trying to install a part from one vehicle manufacturer into another, different vehicle. The main concern is usually dimensions. So long as it's not too wide, not too long, not too tall, and everything lines up correctly (or nearly correctly), it should work. The reason the Ford version of the T5 is singled out here is because that's what's been the most popular here. The GM unit is similar, just designed for a GM car. If you can get it to work (no reason you shouldn't, so far as I can see), go for it and post a write-up of your experience.
As a matter of fact, if you're putting one in a 700 series, the GM unit seems to have better-fitting dimensions (namely, the shifter lines up much better) than does the Ford unit. I would be very interested in seeing if that'll work!
As for parts, I would imagine any available Ford-based bellhousing modifications, etc., would be a bolt-on situation. The only thing I believe would be different from the situation discussed here for the Ford unit is the clutch disc, the output shaft, the TO bearing, and the pilot bearing. I assume the clutch fork would be different, too, but you could simplify things greatly, and not need to worry about fork modifications, if you went with a hydraulic TO bearing (see http://www.mcleodind.com).

Hope this helps!

FYI- I'm currently working on getting a Ford T5 into my 744. I'll let everyone know how that goes when I get done.

[VikingTh0r]

I can get my hands on numerous T5 transmissions with the serial number 1352-169. the input shaft length is 7.18 and the input shaft pilot diam. is .668. http://www.therangerstation.com/T5ID.htm Will the pilot bearing be a direct fit into the crank of my 240? Also will the input shaft be the right length with the adapter plate? I'm hoping this is the trans that will work since I'm very interested in doing this conversion so I can have a strong transmission with a real 5th gear instead of that electric OD. Also with the first gear being 3.35:1 is this short enough for a NA 240 brick that was originally an auto to pull just fine?

[Mach375]

I'll check the dimensions of the input shaft/etc on my T5 tomorrow morning. Keep your eyes posted for them.
BTW: as for the McLeod hydraulic TO bearing, there are some very minor issues with proper fit and length, as I've discovered today. Again, details tomorrow.

[Anonymous]

Ford Sierra Cosworth has T5 too :)

[Mach375]

Well, it's not "tomorrow." Bite me. But here we go.

Measured just a few minutes ago, with everything all installed and ready to bolt to the motor, then drop in the car (BH, hyd TO bearing, adaptor plate). That does not, however, mean I have bad measurements--I was able to measure directly from the input shaft to the adaptor plate surface via a small hole in the OE BH.
Input shaft length with adaptor plate attached to T5 face: 6.590 inches. Add exactly .500 inch if you want it without the adaptor plate factored in: 7.090 inches.
Input shaft pilot bearing location OD: .668 inch.
Pilot bearing ID: .700 inch (note: the bearing was already installed in the motor, and the motor is on a stand with only an inch or so clearance--not enough for my calipers. The measured ID is that of the inside body of the bearing--there are also rollers in the body that protrude inwards so as to make snug contact with the input shaft pilot bearing surface. I would estimate the pilot bearing ID with rollers factored in is closer to .675 inch).
Input shaft protrusion past BH-to-motor surface: .625 inch.

As for fitment as per your numbers, I think the dimensions are exactly identical, menaing you're looking at the same T5 I am. My .668 is a solid dead-on accurate number. There may be a very slight variance with my 6.590 measurement, perhaps .010 inch? That would put is absolutley dead-on accurate with your 7.180 inch measurement, if my .010 variance is factored in.
What I'm saying is, if the particular transmission you refer to is a good price, or easily available, I see absolutley no reason in the world you wouldn't be able to bolt it right up with JP's adaptor kit. Go get it!

[Mach375]

Alright! For all you interested in using a hydraulic throwout bearing rather than the fork-actuated TO bearing, listen up!

JP at VPD offers the adaptor kit for swapping a T5 into a 200, and also a 700 with the shifter a bit further forward. This much I hope you know by the time you get to this point in the thread :grrr: .
I have talked with John a bit about my using a hydraulic TO bearing made by McLeod, and he has shown interest in my fitment. He has also shown intrest in my fitment of the T5 into a 700, as no one has reported back to him on that matter (lots of 200s, though).
Reasons I decided on a hyd TO versus the common fork. I was converting from an auto to a manual, so I was literally starting from scratch, including pedals. This made for a good starting point for something different, and maybe better. From some brief reading on some Ford boards, I concluded that the hyd TO was easier to set up, less labor-intensive (long-term I mean: less adjustment, etc), and the biggest advantage was nearly no increased pedal effort when running a substantially modified pressure plate or clutch disc; it was this reason that was my final determining factor, as I'm running a 100% over stock clamping pressure pressure plate.
I went with McLeod's product simply because I had a devil of a time finding anyone else that made a hyd TO for a Ford. Lots of Chevy and Mopar, only one Ford. Cheapest place to get it is Dark Horse Performance in Renton, WA, even though the McLeod facility is 20 minutes from my house.
When ordering the part, you need the BOLT-ON model, NOT the slip-on; the slip on will be too long at it's shortest adjustment. The bolt-on can be shortened or lengthened via different length pistons, versus a threaded collar for the slip-on. You will need part number 1319, and specify that you need the #6 piston installed (or you will be swapping pistons 'til next year. And if you don't live in SoCal, shipping can get pricey with three or four swaps). With the #6 piston, and JP's adaptor kit, you'll have the required .141 inch clearance (required: .100-.300 inch).
When getting the adaptor plate and modified bellhousing, you won't need the centering ring JP provides, but you will need the BH hole to be bored to 4.685 inches (.010 inch is the difference between a tranny that lasts 10 miles or 100,000 miles). JP currently bores it out to a much smaller diameter (4 inch??? :e-shrug: ). The larger hole is to allow the hyd TO to be bolted to the T5; the hole will also be used to center the tranny to the engine, and will use the base flange of the McLeod bearing to do the centering (currently being done via the supplied centering ring JP makes).
BTW-- the hyd TO bearing replaces the stock bearing retainer on the front of the T5. You will no doubt be removing the one that's on there (steel is aftermarket, BTW), and installing the McLeod unit with some silicone. Be sure to set up the bearing shims properly before final installation!!!!
If you decide to use the hyd TO bearing, you will not need any clutch fork, additional TO bearing, clutch cable, slave cylinder, or any of the associated machining and adapting each of those needs to get it to work with the T5. You will ONLY need the hyd TO bearing assembly, the modified bellhousing, and the adaptor plate. I also suggest the 36 inch 4-AN braided stainless-steel (teflon-lined) supply line McLeod supplies with their master cylinder kit (PN 13195), however you can either make your own, or adapt whatever the stock unit is (I have no idea, since I'm using the BSS 4-AN line).
And as for those concerned with the proper displacement for the master cylinder. McLeod offers a master cylinder add-on kit to the hyd TO bearing assembly (part number 13195), which, among other things including the BSS 4-AN line, includes a Wilwood 3/4 inch ID bore master cylinder that bolts up perfectly with the stock master cylinder mounting location. The only modification would be to cut 1/2 inch off the end of the threaded pushrod, and to fit the stock clutch pedal attachment fitting on the end (I JBWelded it as a back-up, with some bolts being my main means of attachment). ......... Now, with that said, I see no reason you can't use the stock master cylinder. The inside bore of the stock unit is also 3/4 inch, and the outlet fitting seems to be identical. I did note the only difference seemed to be an additional 1/2 inch stroke in the Wilwood (McLeod) unit, but I doubt this will be accounted for with the non-adjustable pedal travel of the stock Volvo clutch pedal. For those scratching their head, I'm using the WilWood unit for three reasons: 1) I already have it, 2) it's Wilwood--I mean, c'mon!, 3) in seeing if I could get the Volvo pedal mount off the shaft of the stock unit I broke the plastic piece, effectively making the stock unit worthless, and accomplishing what I would need to do anyway for the Wilwood. ......... Now if you use the Wilwood (McLeod) MC, you're going to lose about an inch of clearance from the MC to the shock tower. This is unfortunately right where the outlet line of the MC is, and with the BSS 4-AN line, I can't get it in there. What I'm doing instead is using an Earl's adaptor: banjo-to-4AN. If you opt for the stock MC, I highly doubt you'll have clearance problems.

A word of note. This is going into my '86 744ti. The motor is an '83 B23F, with a '79 B21 crank. The original tranny is an AW-71. I have had no fitment issues whatsoever with this combination, other than what I have described above.
Another word of note. I do not have it in the car yet. Everything is sitting in the garage right now, but should be in the car by Monday (it damn well better be--I start a new job position then and need transportation!). I see no futher issues with getting it to fit, save maybe making up a shifter extension. And the obligatory tranny mount and driveshaft.

BTW--for the electrical hook-ups (reverse light, neutral safety switch), I simply pulled the wiring harness off the AW-71 shifter assembly (four wires) and soldered it into the two switches on the T5. The top/front/center switch is neutral safety, the center/center/DS switch is reverse light. Extremely easy to do!

I will be contacting JP with the information about fitting the hyd TO bearing, and what he would need to do to begin selling an all-inclusive kit. I will also let him know how it goes with fitting it into a 700, with perhaps including a shifter extension and tranny mount adaptor in the kit. If you're looking for a package deal with everything you'll need for the whole swap (except the driveshaft, and the actual T5 itself), wait several weeks, or even a few months for John to get it all together.

Hope this helps those of you considering the T5 swap. And I hope this helps with deciding if you want to run a hyd TO bearing, or the stock fork.

[VikingTh0r]

Hey Mach375, Thank you for taking your time to measure your tranny. I can get a hold of that tranny which is rated at 260ft/lbs torque for $260 from a car enthusiest near me. It's a great price for a 89 tranny that doesn't grind in any gear. Now, I know I have to get the adapter plate/modify fork or get hyd TO/shorten driveshaft but what slip yoke will fit the t5 and also use the 240 u-joints? I talked to the Volvord guy and he said on his 740 a 80-82 Auto Thunderbird's slip yoke will fit the u-joints of a 740 driveshaft and have same spline as t5. Will that be the case for a 240?

[Mach375]

You're welcome.

The spline count is dependent on the vehicle application the trans was originally intended for. If it's a T5, you'll need to get a slip yoke for either a Ford or a GM, depending on where you got your tranny. As for the U-joint end-cup size, I have no idea. I've heard the T-bird fits the 700 yoke, but I have not tried it.
Now here's something you forgot: driveshaft length. Spline count and yoke size are great, but if you're going to use the stock Volvo DS, and it ends up being three inches too long, or an inch too short, you're SOL. You can usually find a local DS specialist, or even your local transmission shop, that can build you a driveshaft to whatever specifications you like, and usually for around $100. $100 ain't bad! And it gets rid of the two-piece DS the Volvos have.
So to answer your question, I have no idea. I'm not familiar with 200s except for what I've digested on this site, and what is shared with the 700s. Instead of adapting a slip yoke to a stock DS, just have a DS made up.

[linuxman51]

there's a reason the driveshaft is two piece, has something to do with harmonics/stress for single piece shafts over a certain length, one of the v8 swap guys had a *very* detailed writeup on what all was involved and why

[stylngle2003]

there's a reason the driveshaft is two piece, has something to do with harmonics/stress for single piece shafts over a certain length, one of the v8 swap guys had a *very* detailed writeup on what all was involved and why

iirc...Paul Schuh got a custom carbon driveshaft made for his 245 for (what did you tell me Paul?) $600? it sounded like it was very good quality and lightweight....id cconsider that, excpet that looking at it now, it would cost as much as a t5 swap...oh well, I can dream, can't i?

[dbarton]

wadejg wrote a long time ago:
[quote:1e92fcdef8]Also, Jags That Run sells a speedo cable for $55 that is from the T5 to the Volvo 200 series speedo cable (Chevy T5 but can't imagine it wouldn't work for a Mustang T5 too). [/quote:1e92fcdef8]

As it turns out the Ford T5 and the Chevy T5 are as different as can be when it comes to the speedo cable. The JagsThat Run cable and gear cages from the GM T5 will not fit the Ford T5. Even the plastic gears are not close.

CRAP! If anyone needs a brand new JagsThatRun GM T5 (or T56) to Volvo 240 speedo cable and associated gear housing with speedo gear assortment, let me know.
Dave B.

[dbarton]

Also, the NAPA speedo cable listed in this article, part number 48403, does not correspond to any speedo cable NAPA offers.
Dave B.

[Mach375]

Not a concern if you've got the diff-mounted speedo sensor for the 700s or 900s.

Dave--you going to the huge NorCal/SoCal meet in SB in April?

[dbarton]

I don't think I'll be fitting a 700 diff. I think I can splice a Ford end onto a Volvo cable and get it to work.

I'm not sure about the Santa Barbara thing. I want to go, but my work schedule is interfering. I might be able to work it out.
Dave B.

[Hank Scorpio]

there's a reason the driveshaft is two piece, has something to do with harmonics/stress for single piece shafts over a certain length, one of the v8 swap guys had a *very* detailed writeup on what all was involved and why

I haven't noticed any odd vibration in mine at 120+, though its atleast 3" in DIA (I think 3.25 iirc). Its a beast.

Dave, you could also use the sensor ring from a later 240, or Autometer sells an electronic retrofit for ford transmissions (what I use) and an aftermarket speedo (which I doubt you want to do).

[linuxman51]

i dont think it had to do with vibrations doug, i think it had something to do with relative material streght over a certain distance, possibly something having to do with the centripital forces the shaft would experience rotating over a given rpm (maybe a tendency to balloon towards the middle of the shaft or something), metal fatigue et al. I don't remember, but dude definitly had an f150 shaft modified with the f150 center support bushing and stuff for that reason. I suppose it could be an urban legend :e-shrug:

[Hank Scorpio]

figure most "muscle" cars new and old are single 1pc larger shafts (3" or bigger) they all seem to work fine at hi driveshaft RPM too.

[linuxman51]

but whats the shaft length (hahahah that doesn't sound right hahaa)

[Hank Scorpio]

About the same as my 240 from what I remeber.

[n xntrx volvo]

[quote:769b1158bd]I found a T5 for an 84-92 camaro / firebird. It will be for my 745.[/quote:769b1158bd]
the camaro t5 is meant to be tilted towards the driver, using the adapter will point the ****fer upright, but the mount and tail housing will be tilted. with the tail it makes the tail sit approx 1" towards the driver. in brief use a ford.
[quote:769b1158bd]And as for those concerned with the proper displacement for the master cylinder. McLeod offers a master cylinder add-on kit to the hyd TO bearing assembly (part number 13195), which, among other things including the BSS 4-AN line, includes a Wilwood 3/4 inch ID bore master cylinder that bolts up perfectly with the stock master cylinder mounting location. The only modification would be to cut 1/2 inch off the end of the threaded pushrod, and to fit the stock clutch pedal attachment fitting on the end[/quote:769b1158bd]
you can also use a 260 one, on 200's atleast. .75" bore. fits w/o mods, & cheap used. also can mod lines.
[quote:769b1158bd]I talked to the Volvord guy and he said on his 740 a 80-82 Auto Thunderbird's slip yoke will fit the u-joints of a 740 driveshaft and have same spline as t5. Will that be the case for a 240?
[/quote:769b1158bd]
just avoid it and replace the drive shaft flange to dana 1310 u-joint(very common, cheap & upgradible) i think the part # is 329? easy to find used, that way you don't have a frankenstien driveshaft, but a easy to fab & balance, cheap driveshaft.
[quote:769b1158bd]I haven't noticed any odd vibration in mine at 120+, though its atleast 3" in DIA (I think 3.25 iirc). Its a beast.
[/quote:769b1158bd]
with a 3.25" driveshaft ( at 47", prob your length) your max opper rpm would be 7345 rpm (approx 565 rpms per 1/4 in)
7348 rpm / 3.31gears = a volvo w/ 185/70-14's (24.2" d) would turn 2219 rpms right? 24.2 d x pi = distance covered per rev, 75.998 in. 2219 rpms x 75.998 in = 168617.372 in per min/ 12 (feet)/ 5280 ( feet in mile) x 60 (min in hour) = 159.67 mph, this is your max speed w/ this shaft.
[quote:769b1158bd]figure most "muscle" cars new and old are single 1pc larger shafts (3" or bigger) they all seem to work fine at hi driveshaft RPM too.[/quote:769b1158bd]
this is why they're so big, smaller shaft, less speed before the harmonics meet and it goes boom. if you notice big trucks use two due to the gearing, and the large tires.
oh ya, if you use to drive shafts you double the speed.
-questions
- for white blocks, if you use a m90 bellhousing & flywheel ect., could you mount a t5 to a 960 or 850 motor? it would be a much cheaper & stronger alternative (after shipping)
- could a bellhousing adapter be made to convert to gm or ford? imagine powerglide, t56 or a aod behind a race volvo!

[Mach375]

If a T5 can be made to fit in a brick, so can any other damn tranny in the world. Just depends on how much time, money, and effort you want to put into it. As for the T56 et al, I doubt there would be too much work to get it to fit, just have to make an adaptor plate or a modified BH or something.
Speaking of T56: A friend of mine has a T56 sitting around he'e like to sell. He was originally going to put it into a '67 Firebird, but went with something else (don't remember what). So now he's got a perfectly good T56 6-speed Firebird/Camaro tranny sitting around. $1400 negotiable, plus shipping.

[stick940T]

[quote:bdd69415ba]I found a T5 for an 84-92 camaro / firebird. It will be for my 745.
the camaro t5 is meant to be tilted towards the driver, using the adapter will point the ****fer upright, but the mount and tail housing will be tilted. with the tail it makes the tail sit approx 1" towards the driver. in brief use a ford.
[/quote:bdd69415ba]

That sucks, since the position of the shifter fore and aft is much nicer for a 7/9 series. Perhaps with the right mounts, the tail position would be ok, even with a 2pc driveshaft (it must work on the camaro (though with a 1pc), eh?)


- for white blocks, if you use a m90 bellhousing & flywheel ect., could you mount a t5 to a 960 or 850 motor? it would be a much cheaper & stronger alternative (after shipping)


As I understand it, M90s are a one piece casting, no separable bellhousing. Thus, you couldn't pull the same trick on a whiteblock (at least not with an m90 bell, and I'm not aware of any other manuals on the whiteblocks, i don't think they ever used M46).

Andy

[stick940T]

Yeah, I confirmed this:


As I understand it, M90s are a one piece casting, no separable bellhousing. Thus, you couldn't pull the same trick on a whiteblock (at least not with an m90 bell, and I'm not aware of any other manuals on the whiteblocks, i don't think they ever used M46).


i.e. no M46 on whiteblock, M90 1pc, no separate bellhousing.

However, 945ti said in another thread that the AW30-40 (whiteblock) auto bellhousing interchanges with AW7X (redblock) auto bellhousing. I have no idea what the feasbility of putting a clutch into an auto bellhousing is. _perhaps_ with a hydraulic T/O bearing it would be possible...? but would the starter line up with the manual flywheel, etc, etc?

[linuxman51]

starter should line up fine, and clutch clearing the bellhousing shouldnt be an issue either as it can't be much larger than a converter and its shallower. perhaps someone with a motor out of the car can check.
the problem is the shaft length and the lenght of an auto bellhousing which iirc looks to be longer than a manual, equals chopping required of the housing and you would almost certainly want to run a scatter shield with something like that on there.
It would be greatly helpfull if someone that has an auto and manual bellhousing check them out side by side, if i remember next time i'm home i will.

[stick940T]

well, you might not have to chop the bellhousing:

the -93 mustang T5 that people are using has the shortest of the 3 ford t5 input shaft lengths:

http://www.therangerstation.com/T5ID.htm

So maybe, just maybe one of the other input shafts would work. Just a thought.

[linuxman51]

maybe, but you're still going to need an adapter plate so that adds further to the length, and then you might run into issues with the shifter location. definitly be interesting to look in to tho, would certainly make fwd swaps into rwd cars a bit more do able

[n xntrx volvo]

[quote:897df23b12]That sucks, since the position of the shifter fore and aft is much nicer for a 7/9 series. Perhaps with the right mounts, the tail position would be ok, even with a 2pc driveshaft (it must work on the camaro (though with a 1pc), eh?)
[/quote:897df23b12]
the camaro is meant to have the ****er angled towards the driver, so to get it pointed straight up again, requires tilting the trans. imagine taking your trans and tilting it 30 deg to fit a camaro, and what that would do. it can be done, just more work than its worth. the mount would be diff than anybody elses, but i guess you could bend it use a really long bolt, and a s$#t load of washers. but the offset of the tailhousing would mean being very very carefull about pinion angles, since not only does it have to "bend" down more than a two piece, but also to the side more
as for the adapter, what i was refering to was before the belhousing, between the eng & bell, not bell and trans like this
http://www.jegs.com/photos/55560170.jpg
to go from whiteblock bell bolt pattern, to gm bell bolt pattern.

[Hank Scorpio]

already talked about this... do a search. Already decided the best way do a whiteblock in the states is make a "automatic" type adapter (between the block and bellhousing) on a domestic trans'.

Theres aplace in sweden who does make redblock -> gm trans adapters.

search please.

my driveshaft does nothing wierd at 120+, so Im not going to change it.

[stick940T]

Doug, sorry about that. It was late at night, and I found the other thread after I posted here. However, I do have in-thread stuff about longer T5s for 7/9 cars.

I've been trying to find a solution for a 7/9 series that does not require _any_ cutting around the shifter hole or a bent set back (very far) shifter.

On the camaro T5, I think the situation is that the bellhousing for a camaro t5 rotates it 17 deg toward the driver. The shifter is thus rotated 17 deg. It sounds like GM set up the mounts on the bottom of the extension housing (or tail housing) to be parallel to the ground, so they are 17 deg off from where they would be on a mustang t5. (please, correct me if any of this is wrong)

So, I think what this means is that you could use the same adapter plate as you would for a mustang, and have a straight up shifter, but you would have to fabricate or modify the crossmember differently. I would expect the output shaft to be in line with the crank, because the input and output shafts should be in line, even in the camaro. the driveshaft would also be a different length, but this doesn't matter for us.

What I'm trying to say is, that the only important difference on a camaro T5 is the mounting to the crossmember, which shouldn't be that hard to fab. Am I nuts? :???:

Also, the input shaft length on a '96 camaro v6 t5 is within half a millimeter of the -93 mustang. Decent ratios are another matter.

Another possibility is the t5 from a 280ZX turbo. these were in 82-83 at least, and they have the shifter in roughly the same place as a camaro, but they are NWC, with 260lb-ft torque rating. Honestly, though, I don't think one would bust open right at 260! they also have nice ratios, _really_ similar to an M90:

http://www.geocities.com/zgarage2001/borg.html

I do not believe these transmissions have any goofy tilt stuff going on like the camaro, but I don't know for sure. However, according to that same page, the input shaft length is different from camaro or mustang T5s. Thus, the input shaft would have to be swapped from some NWC with a 7.18" length.

for a world class setup, one might be able to use a 280ZX tail housing (NWC/WC tail housings interchange) but you would have to use an output shaft from a WC to get the right length. I don't know if the 280ZX and camaro output shafts are the same length, although they ought to be pretty close, by the eyeball.:x: According to this page (under "shifter position"), the 5th gear assembly has to be swapped over as well.

http://www.merkurencyclopedia.com/Trans,Diff/transmission.html

Worth it? I'm not sure. Unless people, er, "change" my perspective :slap: , I would be tempted to either fab a crossmember for a camaro unit or swap the input shaft on a 280Z unit (having a rebuild done at the same time) and just _see_ if I ever break a NWC.

For those of us with "millions" of horsepower in 7/9s :bs:, here's a picture of a Tremec TKO2 (on a Z T5 BH, BTW) with a modified shifter position (if you look closely you can see the box where the shifter normally sits) next to a normal NWC 280ZX T5. Maybe you could do a shifter position mod like that on a ford t5 and skip all the rest of this business. I have an email in to the guy with the TKO2 in the Z to see what that shifter setup is.

http://www.angelfire.com/extreme/280zxt/images/tranny.jpg

hmm, I'm sure I got something wrong, but did I provoke some thoughts?

Andy

[linuxman51]

280's had t5 transmissions in them? :e-shrug:

(nissan 280 Z that is)

[stick940T]

yep, from drivetrain.com:

Nissan 280ZX with Turbo 1982-83
Nissan 300ZX with Turbo 1984-86

<edit>
of course the 300ZX here is the old one, not TT

looks like the 280ZX trans is the one with ratios very close to an M90. The 300ZX has a first gear similar to a mustang, but it still has an OD gear that is reasonable for our 4-cyl turbo cars (.75 vs .63 5th on the mustang, which is IMO too high of a gear for us). Basically, 300ZX trans is probably OK too. Torque rating on both of these is 260lb-ft, _I think_ (I claimed this in my previous post)

more details on the ratios here:

http://www.zhome.com/ZCMnL/tech/GearRatios.html

However, the high 5th can be swapped on a mustang with a gear from another T5WC, for example a Camaro V6, of course you are basically in for a rebuild at that point.

I would imagine that the dimensions on these two ZX trans are the same, like length and shifter position, but I really have no hard data. :e-shrug:

Stick Turbo ZXes in this year range might also be pretty rare.
</edit>

Andy

[linuxman51]

!!!!!! whats the holding capacity on em? **** i know where i can get one for like 100 bucks!

[Captain Bondo]

Kenny,
He mentioned they are 230-260 I think.

I'm wondering what the real story is on the T5. Are they just going to become the new m46? Can be be beefed or is it the same thing with the case deformation? I'm going to have to put something behind my new motor but I'm not interested in needing a new tranny every few months.

I'm guessing the getrag is tougher? This is the toughest choice of my whole project right now.

[stick940T]

Kenny, I'm sure this could be debated quite a bit, but here is my assessment:

I believe that M90, WC T5, and Getrag are all roughly the same strength. I'm sure I'll get arguments, but that's my position. T5 gets a bad rep because it's behind V8s all the time, M90 gets a good rep because it's behind 4 cyls all the time. M90 is hard to get, Getrag is expensive to repair. so T5 looks appealing since it's easier to find and repair.

I would say for a 240, use a mustang WC T5 if you're not going to make much more than 300lb-ft, and use a Tremec 3550 set up for a mustang if you're planning on manking between 300 and 350-375lb-ft, which is what they are rated for. 3550 should be more expensive to buy than a T5, but not really any harder to put in. However, if you are really making that much torque, it should be easily justifiable. also, there is a TKO version of the 3550 that is even stronger, but you'd have to have a pretty killer setup to need it behind a 2.3 (or 2.5) turbo four.

As far as weights, T5 WC weighs ~75lb, 3550 weighs around 110, so they are not that heavy.

Andy

[stick940T]

here's a picture of a camaro T5 mounted straight-up under a FC RX-7 (FC=2nd Gen).

http://v8rx7.com/t5monts.JPG

seems to me we 7/9ers could use this trans under our cars with creative crossmember fabrication, as I mentioned previously. Again, input shaft length is basically the same between a mustang T5 and a ~1996 camaro V6 T5 (which is also world class so it has essentially the same torque spec)

Andy

[Hank Scorpio]

Andy that wasn't meant at you, great info.

Kenny, what do you think would be cheaper to upgrade? A ford T5 that came in god knows how many cars or anything that came in a Bimmer.

I beat the living **** out of mine, 6k clutch drops, power shifts through all 5 gears and I haven't heard a complaint out of it.

[linuxman51]

Kenny,
He mentioned they are 230-260 I think.

I'm wondering what the real story is on the T5. Are they just going to become the new m46? Can be be beefed or is it the same thing with the case deformation? I'm going to have to put something behind my new motor but I'm not interested in needing a new tranny every few months.

I'm guessing the getrag is tougher? This is the toughest choice of my whole project right now.

yea it was late, i skimmed over that part. If thats true then theres little point in my swapping that in as i'm already making 30 ft/lbs more than what they're rated at. The flip side to this is that ive heard tell of 400hp zcars rolling on the stock tranny, and thats gonna hafta be making big torque numbers (inline 6, 2.8L). i think i'll be calling around on this, i miss the manual and i dont really believe that this transmission is going to be as weak as an m46. I'll certainly ask first in the z circles tho, find out what they do

[stick940T]

I think you're right that they can take more than they are rated for. the guy at this site put over 400lb-ft to the dyno though a stock NWC T5:

http://www.angelfire.com/extreme/280zxt/page19.html

I have no doubt that the WC is a better trans, but the ratios are attractive on the Z. I think the main thing that would keep me away from using one of these is I think you would have to take it apart to put in a different input shaft, and at that point, you might as well be customizing ratios on a camaro T5 WC. If anyone can find out for sure what the input shaft length is on these, that would help, I just have a claim from some guy's page that they are totally different than v8 T5s.

Does anybody know what the stock rearend ratio on a 940T with an M90 was? It might be 3.54, but I really don't know for sure.

On the camaro front, I have been unable to find out whether v8 3rdgen f-body T5s and 3rd and 4th gen v6 f-body t5s have the same input shafts, or not, I would like to know, but all I know is that the input shaft length on the 1996 v6 T5 is good, although the ratios kind of suck, with a low first and high fifth.

My goal here is to find a T5 (preferably WC) with decent ratios that will drop into a 7/9 with the shifter in a nice place, even if a tricked-out crossmember is required. I'm looking for a 1st comparable to the m90 setup (~3.50), and a top gear around .80, but of course if both ratios were higher gears you might be ok because you could change the rearend ratio.

here are some sources for T5 ratios:
http://media.gmcanada.com/division/canada/english/products/chevrolet/archives/1996Camaro.html
(at the bottom)

This info (v6 5-spd) is for all 96-02.

here are some ratios for 89-92:
http://www.thirdgenresource.com/transmissions_information/

So I'm missing 93-95, and if there were any camaro WC T5 before 89.

Alternatively, you could build a hybrid trans, using a Mustang center section and camaro tailhousing. if you got a camaro WC from a v6, one of them has a .76 fifth, so you could drop that output shaft and 5th into a mustang trans (ditching the .63), with the longer tailhousing. I doubt this would be much cheaper than rebuilding the whole trans, so I'd probably do that. 'course you'd have to buy 2 trannys, but they would be junkyard T5s.

Andy

[dbarton]

Question about how far in does the tailshaft flange go.....

Ok... I bought a new spicer tailshaft flange and it came today. Now I'm wondering how far the flange needs to be inserted into the tailshaft. I'll need to know to set up my driveshaft length. Have a look at the attached pics... you'll see a slight step on the shaft. Does the flange go in past that step?

Pic #1 flange part way in
http://www.bartonharness.com/images/tailshaft_flange001.jpg

Pic #2 flange all the way in
http://www.bartonharness.com/images/tailshaft_flange002.JPG

Pic #3 close-up of step on the shaft
http://www.bartonharness.com/images/tailshaft_flange003.JPG

Thanks,
Dave B.

[Hank Scorpio]

Dave, mine is about split between those pictures (probably to about the ridge).

Call a driveshaft shop (the one you want to use) and have them fax you a form with the measurements they need, they'll take care of the rest. (its ussualy tip of output shaft to tip of rear axle/whatever)

[n xntrx volvo]

yes for auto's its been touched on. but adapter for man? no. only option listed during search was m90 or nothing (too much $$$ can change anything though). with a adapter plate like i posted, fab'd to go from whiteblock block to gm or ford bellhousing, to go to a t5 or other resonable trans? thats why i'm asking in a t5 posting. also there's a big diff between 120+ and 158mph, but if you ever get there (which will be fairly soon, the way you build), upgrade. on the v6 t5 its only rated at 210 ft lbs. for those determined to use the gm t5, you can conv the t/o to hyd easily by using a 84-88 corvette sys., it will solve any clearance issues, and is decent $ wise used.

[Kakkarotttto]

yep, from drivetrain.com:

Nissan 280ZX with Turbo 1982-83
Nissan 300ZX with Turbo 1984-86


Weren't all the turbo 280ZX cars automatics? :e-shrug: i could have swore they were. the only 5spd i know are in the N/A models/ I know the 300ZX cars came with 5 speeds but the 280's didnt

[stick940T]

They may have been rare, but they existed, both 280zx turbo and 300zx turbo in manual trans.

[Hank Scorpio]

We talked (probably on the old board) about importing just m90 bellhousings. Found out they are 1 pc, ruled that the only cheap way to do a whiteblock trans is an automatic style adapter.

[linuxman51]

So i'm curious... its been stated that the input shaft on the Z t5 would have to be changed.. why is this? is it a length issue or a size issue (too big/too small)?

[Kakkarotttto]

IF you guys need some measurements my buddy has a Z T5 sitting at his house i can go look at anytime i want to (bought 2 cars for $850, blew tail shaft on 1 tranny already).

[stick940T]

Kenny (linuxman),

all I have on the input shaft for the Z is from this page:

http://www.geocities.com/zgarage2001/borg.html

the guy says:

[quote:bf19bba0a6]
BTW, I've compared the front input shafts, and I don't see any way to mate this with a Chevy or Ford V8. The input shaft is a different length, has a different pilot diameter, and a different number of splines for the clutch. In other words, nothing will transfer between the two. In addition, you would also need to buy an expensive new V8 bellhousing, so I wouldn't even try. So do yourself a favor and buy the proper T5 if you want to do a V8 conversion [on a 240z].
[/quote:bf19bba0a6]

I have no hard data (measurements would be very nice) but this guy has no reason to make this stuff up. Workaround might be possible, but I have no idea how hard.

I also want to correct something I said before :slap: , which is that the world class t5 in a late camaro v6 has "essentially the same torque spec" as a mustang v8 t5 because they're both WC. This is not true, but it's for a reason that I don't care that much about ...

The real story is that the camaro v6 WC is not as strong, but it's because it has a lower first gear (higher numerically). in fact, the camaro v6 t5s have first gears in the 3.7-4.0 range, which is too low in my opinion, considering their 5th gears are .76 and .73 (I think) respectively.

Until somebody corrects me, I believe that the nicest (with regard to the center console and tunnel) setup for a 7/9 would be a mustang T5 with camaro v6 WC tail housing, output shaft, and 5th gear. this would make a trans with very nicely spaced ratios (adjust final if nec), and the shifter in the right place. it would, however, require a different type of crossmember than a swap with the mustang tailhousing would. The camaro 5th gear should not affect the torque spec.

this site is also very interesting with regard to T5 swaps:

http://garage-scene.home.att.net/t5_install.htm

[Mach375]

Sorry to get off the conversation here, but since this is the T5 thread, and I have a small update on it.....

For fitting the Ford T5 into the 700s, the mount is ultra-simple, as is the stick repositioning.
I used a piece of 3/8" thick CR steel bar to move the shifter back 5 inches--drilled four holes, two on each end. Very simple.
For the mount, I dug around the local Kragen's back shelves until I found a transmission mount that I thought I could adapt. Of the three possible mounts I picked out, I decided on Anchor part number 2220. It has a single bolt at the base, with rubber seperating the two bolt holes at the top, and an equivelent angle to our Volvo crossmember (if that makes sense to you :???: ). The only other part I needed was a piece of 6"x4"x1" T6 aluminum (I'm not entirely sure on the 6"x4" measurement, I'm going off a terrible memory here), with four holes drilled. Two of the holes line up with the mount, and the other two line up with the transmission. Perfect installation!!

So I now have the T5 bolted and mounted in my '86 744ti. Ready to go. Just have to find a shifter boot, and clutch fork boot.

[linuxman51]

pics you tease :rofl:

[Hank Scorpio]

Awsome bud!!!

I think the easiest way to make the mount for a 240 work is weld a plate (like I did) but to the bottom of the crossmember, then drill two holes in it and you can use the rubber mount. Should be a piece of cake!

Alright Shane!!!

[stick940T]

Shane, you're more than welcome to provide your actual experience as opposed to speculation!

I'm very interested in your shifter extension, looking forward to pictures!

Nice job!!

[Boris740]

well, you might not have to chop the bellhousing:

the -93 mustang T5 that people are using has the shortest of the 3 ford t5 input shaft lengths:

http://www.therangerstation.com/T5ID.htm

So maybe, just maybe one of the other input shafts would work. Just a thought.

I am half way into the conversion and have trouble deciding which T5 has the best gear ratios. I am putting it into a 740. I will eventually have over 300 RWHP

[stick940T]

Boris, I think ratios are kind of a problem.

anything OEM off of a V8 car has too big of a space between 4th and 5th (IMHO).

camaro V6 WC have a pretty low 1st gear, and a fairly high 5th.

Z ratios are nice from a 280ZX (best, I think) or 300ZX, but they are not world class versions, so they ain't as strong.

these ratios are listed on TTC's site http://www.ttcautomotive.com/English/products/T-5.asp, which I think are nice:

3.35 1.99 1.33 1.00 0.83

but the trans they are listed for is only rated 230lb-ft :(

you can buy a 3550 with about the same ratios, but then you're talking bucks. The adapter stuff isn't the same either. Also, most of the used 3550s are from mustangs, so they have the super overdrive 5th like the OEM v8 T5s.

these are the reasons why I'm leaning more towards a supra trans lately, like Hal did. I found some dynos of a guy that had a w58 (in a supra) that held 460rwhp for 6 months before breaking. w58 weighs the same as a T5, ~75lb.

But now that I think about it, the mustang SVO has nice ratios, and I think they were WC around 85-86. might be hard to find one, though. The thunderbird turbo coupe one is similar but the first gear is too low.

Good luck!

[Mach375]

Was at the JY the other day. Poking my head into various vehicles looking for a shifter boot I came across what looked like a T5 in an Isuzu Rodeo :???: . '92 Isuzu Rodeo with V6, the tranny looked exactly like a T5 with a very short tailhousing. Anyone feel like looking up the HP/torque handling, and the gear ratios for this?

[stick940T]

Shane, they did use a T5 in the rodeo, but the torque spec is only 230lb-ft. Ratios are ok, first is on the low side. The shifter is about 50mm forward of where it is on the mustang. details here:

http://www.tremec.com.mx/catalogo/Fichas%20Tecnicas/Fic-T5e.pdf

interestingly, the application chart shows "semi-remote" applications with the shifter about 100mm further back than a mustang. Could this be somehow useful to us 7/9ers? torque specs and gear ratios are nothing special, but perhaps the housing is? I am guessing this setup is for a commercial truck or something.

Also, I want to add a little more information to a conjecture that I made before.

I postulated about building a "hybrid" T5 using a ford center section and a camaro v6 WC 5th gear and output shaft. I have not done this, but I think it is possible. Specifically, the changing of 5th gear is possible because the T5 has an interchangeable 5th gear. In other transmissions/gears, "half" of the gear may be part of the layshaft casting, and therefore not be changeable. If you don't understand, read the manual transmission article on howstuffworks.com

For example, porsche transmissions like the G50 and 915 allow all gears to be changed separately (iirc), but most transmissions do not have this capability.

For 240s, the best (and proven, though not in a volvo (wouldn't matter)) way to "fix" the high Mustang V8 T5 fifth (if you feel this is a problem) is to go with a Ford Motorsport .80 fifth driven and drive gearset, which is a little under $200 from hanlon motorsports:

http://www.hanlonmotorsports.com/category.asp?category=transmission

pretty expensive, I guess this wouldn't be worth it for everybody, you'd have to take the trans partially apart as well, of course.

[iadr]

Also, the NAPA speedo cable listed in this article, part number 48403, does not correspond to any speedo cable NAPA offers.
Dave B.

From when I used to work for Napa, I recognize that as a United Brake Products part number. I think it may have been discontinued by fact of them changing speedo cable suppliers, but it may still be available somewhere once you know the brand

[dbarton]

I have already constructed a speedo cable using a new Volvo cable and grafting on the Ford T5 speedo gear housing end section. I got the T5 end from a junked mustang at a pick-a-part.

http://www.bartonharness.com/images/Volvo_cable_Ford_end001_lo-res.JPG
http://www.bartonharness.com/images/Volvo_cable_Ford_end002_lo-res.JPG
Dave B.

[VikingTh0r]

Thats is pretty sweet looking.

[n xntrx volvo]

can the prv guys use this?
http://eshop.advanceadapters.com/commerce/catalog/product.jsp?product_id=1651&czuid=1079928727886

[noah244ti]

Just finished my t5 swap and though you guys might like to see how it went....


My original plan was to have the front section shortened of my m46 driveshaft too, but once I noticed that all my U joints and center support bushing were shot I opted for the one piece. I jot my measurements from Doug (thanks) which were 66 3/8" (have to double check) center to center of the yokes and 3" diameter...
No rubbing whatsoever in the DL tunnel. I know Doug was having some problems with his scraping because his rearend was a little to one side before he adjusted his panhard rod.

http://www.pbase.com/image/27465346.jpg


1/4" thick plate steel welded to the bottom of the crossmember. Couldn't have been easier.

http://www.pbase.com/image/27481434.jpg


I'm using the stock ford tranny mount. Works great and helps keep the engine from rocking as much as it did with the stock tranny mount.
Move the crossmember to the farthest back setting and it all lines up perfectly!

http://www.pbase.com/image/27481490.jpg


I gotta say. the gear ratios on this tranny are absolutly perfect! (I have the 3.35 1st model)
and was a bit worried about the gearing being quite a bit higher than my M46, not a problem at all and the throws on my short shifter are awesome!

http://www.pbase.com/image/27482090.jpg

[stylngle2003]

sick sick sick sick noah!
thats soo cool....what clutch are you running with that setup?
looks great, bet its a hell of a lot of fun!

[Mach375]

Small update here on the shifter positioning, now that I have my trim pieces put back in.

The cross-bar for the center section (where the pull-out ashtray is, in front of the fuse panel) can't be used, which means the plastic portion of the L-shaped center piece that connects to that bar via a funky C-clip needs to be removed also. The pull-out fold-down ashtray also can't be used, at least not as it is. Though I haven't done it yet, it may be quite easy to cut out the back of the "drawer" section of the ashtray, leaving just the front panel, and then superglue it shut. Yes, I just described making a blank panel to cover the ashtray hole. If you have a section of plastic sitting around you want to cut up to fit in the hole, that is essentially what I'm suggesting. I'm just describing a way that would recycle the original part, therby making it look stock. And an added bonus to this is you now have a switch panel.
The fuse panel needs to be moved up, and as far forward (back) as possible, as well. To do this, I removed the plastic fuse panel mounting bracket, and elongated the single forward-most hole (the only one that isn't elongated). I elongated it toward the rear, BTW. I then took a piece of scrap wood, about 3/8" thick, and sandwiched that between the panel mounting bracket and metal mounting location on the transmission tunnel. Speaking of that location....
Yes, you will need to cut a bit of body panel out of the transmission tunnel to fit the shifter (Ford T5 here). You will be removing a section up to the point where the platstic fuse panel mounting bracket metal mounting location (did I lose you yet?) bends upward to the screw holes (seriously, at this point you're so confused that the only way you're going to make sense of this is to go out and actually look at what I'm describing). You will be cutting into the flattened part of the metal mounting location, but only up to the first bend.
At this point, you should notice you have about 1/16" clearance between the fuse panel and the shifter extension bar. Which is in my opinion just right.

I will eventually get some pics of everything. Just as soon as I get a decent digi-cam with zoom.

BTW- as of this posting, my motor is flat broken. Something inside went CLANK on the freeway, and now I have a Swedish paperweight. I'll get it back to running, though.

[neurot75]

that is the coolest shift knob ive ever seen. looks custom made

[noah244ti]

that is the coolest shift knob ive ever seen. looks custom made

Thanks! Actually its just a 25 dollar cheapy, works great though!

I've only had it in for a few days now but I gotta say, this is one of the biggest improvements I've made on my car. I'd do it agian just for the feeling of the shifts and running it through the gears.

The T5 tranny mount I am using is alot stiffer than my m46 one. I noticed that the shifter doesn't rock from side to side when I turn the car over or when I punch the gas (my motor mounts werent bad either).
It definatly holds the engine down better. A huge difference. Who woulda thought? : )

[Hank Scorpio]

Thats what I've been saying!

I'll tell you right now, you'll probably get 2 or 3 times the life span out of your mounts ;)

[Turborg]

I am getting real close to a B23ft plus T5z swap into my 82 242ti. The machine shop said my motor would be done Monday. I saw earlier in the thread that 66 3/8" was the length on the shaft. As many people seem to be doing the swap, is this the measurement everybody is coming up with? I know I should just wait til its together, but I could save a couple of days down time if I was confident in this measurement. Also I have questions about the slip yoke. A couple of tranny shops have told me that I would have to get it from Ford. JTR deals mostly with chevies but recommends changing to a larger U-joint than the stock Volvo, and changing the flange on the rear end to accept this heavier more common U-joint. Would appreciate any advice on the drive shaft issues....Thanks

[noah244ti]

I wouldn't worry too much about the volvo u joint. Thats what doug and I are using, along with the flange on the rear end. I took measurements of Dougs DL last time I was up there because I too, didn't want to have my car down for those extra few days. I was definatly worried about it not being the correct length, it came out perfectly though! With about 1/2" of excess of the slip yoke sticking out (for suspension movement).
I need to check my reciept from the DL shop before I go say it was exactly 66 3/8" (thats just what pops into my head) but its in my friends car, so next time I see him..... : )

[ptouch20]

awesome info everyone...it's like the bible of t5 swaps...careful with your 3rd gears, i have a couple laying around the shop with no teeth left on them... Anyone know how many splines are on the turbocoupe version's input shaft? Does all the info here apply? I have access to a low mileage turbocoupe t5. thanks, and good work.
-pete

[MattP]

Here is an interesting gear set for those DIY'ers.

http://www.5speeds.com/t5/gforce.html

[Turborg]

I was checking with drive train shops today and got some disturbing info from two of them. They tell me that the critical speed(speed at which a drive shaft may fail if exceeded) for a 66 inch driveshaft is right at 4000 rpms. I checked some sources on the net and they seem to agree. I wondered if anyone has any other info as I am ready to get the driveshaft for my conversion. In this area it is a lot cheaper to shorten the front shaft. I may go that route with a heftier carrier bearing support.

[noah244ti]

CORRECTION! CORRECTION! CORRECTION!

The driveshaft on my 240 is not 66 inches long...
It is in fact 46 3/8" from center to center of U joint in a 3" diameter.
I dont know how 66" poped into my head when I was posting about my swap (I told you dont trust me :0 )... But yes, just climed out from under the car with a measuring tape.

I've had no problems with my driveshaft. I've been up to about 6k in 1-3 and just cruised at about 110 last night in 5th. No wierd vibrations and I'm sure if you checked the critical speed of a ** 46 3/8" X 3" **DS... Should be much higher than what you came up with for the 66 incher : )


http://www.pbase.com/image/27465346.jpg

[Turborg]

Noah, thanks for the correction!! The calculator says anything under 9000 RPM is fine. Sorry about any confusion my posts caused.

[Turborg]

Here is how the setup I got for John at vintage performance looks. I will report back how it works when I have it installed. http://www.pbase.com/image/27991091. http://www.pbase.com/image/27991129.

[Turborg]

When installing the Volvo bellhousing to the Vintage Performance adapter, you need to check that the bolts that are in the front bearing retainer allow the bellhousing to bolt up flush. At least three of us have had to machine the bolt heads so they do not stick out past the adapter.

[pengee]

I thought I would post this to see if anyone can give me some insight into what is going on right now with my setup.

A little over a month ago I did the T5 swap into my 240. Because of work and some other things I needed to have the car done asap. So, I did the swap over two nights in the middle of the week. When I had it all apart I did not look very thoroughly at the flywheel and decided that I would stick it back in without resurfacing. Same went for the pressure plate (horrible idea I know). I would not have normally done this but the car had to be running again in two days if only temporarily.
Anyways, I got the driveshaft made and the car ran great once I adjusted the clutch. I drove it for probably a few weeks and the clutch got very bad chatter as expected. So, at this point I put the car down to redo everything and take the time needed. I also did up a mount similar to what Noah has and I must say it is much better then the design I did before that.
I got the fiber-carbon disk, and the clutchnet pressure plate and had my flywheel resurfaced and the pressure plate balanced with it. Everything is back together and I adjusted the clutch to where it should be sitting. Could not get the car in gear as the pressure plate was not disengaging the clutch. After a million different adjustments and notching the bellhousing I can adjust it in so far that the fork hit the pressure plate?!?! Still with it that far in it was engaged.
I talked with some people that said a flywheel can be machined down so many times / so far that it will cause this to happen. However, this is like an inch more travel than before after only the one resurfacing.
Everything is in and done right as I have taken it apart and looked over everything many times.
Should I just get a new flywheel, does this sound like the problem? Should I consider modifying the throw out bearing to sit further forward? Could the spring travel be that much different from the centerforce pressure plate?
I am at a loss and will be tearing it all down again this week. Feel free to give any information / criticism.
Thanks

[blu92in99]

I got the fiber-carbon disk, and the clutchnet pressure plate and had my flywheel resurfaced and the pressure plate balanced with it. Everything is back together and I adjusted the clutch to where it should be sitting. Could not get the car in gear as the pressure plate was not disengaging the clutch. After a million different adjustments and notching the bellhousing I can adjust it in so far that the fork hit the pressure plate?!?! Still with it that far in it was engaged.

(I'm gonna make an assumption that with the engine off you can row through all 5 gears with no difficulty, and with the engine running it won't go into gear) You might want to make absolutely sure that you put the disc in the right way. A buddy of mine did that on his Jeep, he installed the clutch disc backwards, not allowing it to go into gear when running. Just my $0.02

[pengee]

Yes, with the car off I can go into any gear with out problem. When the car is running it can't.
When I did the clutch the first time I found that it could not even be put in backwards as the springs in the hub would hit the bolts on the flywheel.
In my 740wagon I was able to put it in backwards one time :oops: but it was obvious when I started the car.

[Hank Scorpio]

I had this problem when I did my T5 swap. Are you using one of JP's pressure plates?

I have a feeling that the "teeth" on the PP aren't tall enough. Noah is using an OEM pressure plate and his works fine, mine however I needed to extended my throw out bearing. It did the exact same thing.

[pengee]

This is the pressure plate that JP sells, he gets them from clutchnet. I know I saw a picture of it in someone’s install, maybe it was dbartons, I could be wrong though. They used all the same parts as I have and I don't recall them having problems.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>

That was another thought, to extend the bearing. Do you have any pictures of yours? Also, are you using the same one that you mentioned at the beginning of the thread.
Or do you think it would work very well to make the pivot ball on the other side of the fork stand off farther?
Thanks for the info.

[Turborg]

I have the same equipment and the same problem. My best guess at this point is that more travel is needed from the Volvo clutch. I'm going to check out under the pedal first to see if I can do anything there first. I don't think we need more than about half an inch. If the tranny has to come out, at least everything is clean.

[Turborg]

clutch travel is not the problem-hours wasted

[Hank Scorpio]

Great bud! Glad you've semi figured it out ;)

I think we need to let JP know whats going on with these pressure plates.

[pengee]

I agree, when I started this I had a centerforce pp and it requires a lot less travel than the clutchnet pp to disengage the clutch. When I talked with JP he wanted me to use that one in the long run so that we could see if it was a better solution than the to the swap. However, he said that he was going with clutchnet, reguardless I think, because centerforce would not sell the volvo pp with the ford clutch.
I got another flywheel yesterday, it is stock and about twice as thick as the lightened one that I have in now. I am going to put it in today when I get it back from the shop and maybe extend the pivot a little. I am guessing this will help out if not solve the problem.
I am also considering getting a new centerforce pp since the old one worked so well.

[Turborg]

This post was inaccurate

[noah244ti]

To Dave or Turborg,
I understand you both are using the new t5"Z" transmission. If you dont mind me asking, where did you guys get them and what did you pay? I cant seem to find any sources for the "Z" online. Thanks, Noah

[Turborg]

I think Pengee has solved our problem!

[pengee]

well I just thought I would let you guys know that I have narrowed down the problem to the pressure plate. I pulled everything out today and found that the teeth on the pp are not even. I played with it and found that one of the outer springs is, I think, more firm than the rest. I must not have noticed this when I installed it. So, I tossed in my old centerforce pp and clutch just to get me by. I am going to be ordering a new centerforce pp this week and I am saving my other new clutch to go with it. I practically have two of everything now.
As for the centerforce pp I have been more than happy with it. The travel involved was no different than the factory volvo pp. The fork does not come too close to the bellhousing under propper adjustment and the clutch is spinning free. With this pp I can shift into reverse all the time with no grinding and never having to hit first gear before doing so.

Anyways....correct me if I am wrong but it seems that everyone running the clutchnet pp setup has had some problems here and there. Let me know what you all think. Maybe I am just irritated :-P

[Turborg]

Pengee: I am really surprised it could be the pressure plate, but it does make sense as the guys running OEM plates are having no problems. And your expirence speaks volumes. Are you going to try to get your money back? I am if I can prove it is the plate. Does anyone have a positive expirence I felt that the pressure plate was weak from the get go but I thought it was other problems. Thanks for the post.

[pengee]

Being that all pressure plates are just modified oems for the most part I have no way of knowing if what clutchnet is selling is no good. Maybe I just got a bad one, or maybe they just don't have them dialed in yet.
In any case I am not getting another one, but I will be trying to get a refund. Who knows how good they are with that, I guess I will find out. <u1:shapetype id="_x0000_t75" coordsize="21600,21600" u2:spt="75" u2:preferrelative="t" path="m@4@5l@4@11@9@11@9@5xe" filled="f" stroked="f"><u1:stroke joinstyle="miter"><u1:formulas><u1:f eqn="if lineDrawn pixelLineWidth 0"><u1:f eqn="sum @0 1 0"><u1:f eqn="sum 0 0 @1"><u1:f eqn="prod @2 1 2"><u1:f eqn="prod @3 21600 pixelWidth"><u1:f eqn="prod @3 21600 pixelHeight"><u1:f eqn="sum @0 0 1"><u1:f eqn="prod @6 1 2"><u1:f eqn="prod @7 21600 pixelWidth"><u1:f eqn="sum @8 21600 0"><u1:f eqn="prod @7 21600 pixelHeight"><u1:f eqn="sum @10 21600 0"></u1:f><u1:path u2:extrusionok="f" gradientshapeok="t" u2:connecttype="rect"><u2:lock u1:ext="edit" aspectratio="t"></u2:lock><u1:shape id="_x0000_i1025" type="#_x0000_t75" alt="" style="width: 11.25pt; height: 11.25pt;"><u1:imagedata src="file:///C:%5CDOCUME%7E1%5Cpengee%5CLOCALS%7E1%5CTemp%5Cmso html1%5C01%5Cclip_image001.gif" u2:href="http://forums.turbobricks.com/images/smilies/icon_sad.gif"></u1:imagedata><!--[if gte vml 1]><v:shapetype id="_x0000_t75" coordsize="21600,21600" o:spt="75" o:preferrelative="t" path="m@4@5l@4@11@9@11@9@5xe" filled="f" stroked="f"> <v:stroke joinstyle="miter"/> <v:formulas> <v:f eqn="if lineDrawn pixelLineWidth 0"/> <v:f eqn="sum @0 1 0"/> <v:f eqn="sum 0 0 @1"/> <v:f eqn="prod @2 1 2"/> <v:f eqn="prod @3 21600 pixelWidth"/> <v:f eqn="prod @3 21600 pixelHeight"/> <v:f eqn="sum @0 0 1"/> <v:f eqn="prod @6 1 2"/> <v:f eqn="prod @7 21600 pixelWidth"/> <v:f eqn="sum @8 21600 0"/> <v:f eqn="prod @7 21600 pixelHeight"/> <v:f eqn="sum @10 21600 0"/> </v:formulas> <v:path o:extrusionok="f" gradientshapeok="t" o:connecttype="rect"/> <o:lock v:ext="edit" aspectratio="t"/> </v:shapetype><v:shape id="_x0000_i1025" type="#_x0000_t75" alt="" style='width:11.25pt; height:11.25pt'> <v:imagedata src="file:///C:DOCUME~1pengeeLOCALS~1Tempmsohtml11clip_image00 1.gif" o:href="file:///C:\DOCUME~1\pengee\LOCALS~1\Temp\msohtml1\01\clip_ image001.gif"/> </v:shape><![endif]--><!--[if !vml]-->:-(<!--[endif]-->
As far as everything sold or recommended by JP I am happy with it, including the clutchnet clutch, but not the pp. <u1:shape id="_x0000_i1026" type="#_x0000_t75" alt="" style="width: 12pt; height: 12pt;"><u1:imagedata src="file:///C:%5CDOCUME%7E1%5Cpengee%5CLOCALS%7E1%5CTemp%5Cmso html1%5C01%5Cclip_image002.gif" u2:href="http://forums.turbobricks.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif"></u1:imagedata><!--[if gte vml 1]><v:shape id="_x0000_i1026" type="#_x0000_t75" alt="" style='width:12pt;height:12pt'> <v:imagedata src="file:///C:DOCUME~1pengeeLOCALS~1Tempmsohtml11clip_image00 2.gif" o:href="file:///C:\DOCUME~1\pengee\LOCALS~1\Temp\msohtml1\01\clip_ image002.gif"/> </v:shape><![endif]--><!--[if !vml]-->:-P<!--[endif]-->
Seems that oem, centerforce or maybe something else would be the way to go.<o:p></o:p></u1:shape></u1:shape></u1:path></u1:f></u1:f></u1:f></u1:f></u1:f></u1:f></u1:f></u1:f></u1:f></u1:f></u1:f></u1:formulas></u1:stroke></u1:shapetype>

[Hank Scorpio]

Yep, sounds like the issue to me. Im running the CN pressure plate/disc, and it works great BUT, I had all those T/O bearing problems.

Turborg, I would defiently swap on an OEM pressure plate or what not or the drive.

[Turborg]

I guess there is no getting around pulling back out the trans. It is just that on my car the problem does not seem to be the clutch not disengaging. Usually when the clutch is not releasing, the car wants to move as you "chirp" it into gear. And when you start it in gear, the car wants to move a little in the direction of the gear. Neither of these happen on my car. The fact that I could easily turn the tailshaft with my hand with the clutch fork depressed before I installed the engine and trans, and not having the above symptoms is not mechanically logical to me. The fact that it shifts very easy as soon as the engine is shut off to me eliminates a trans related problem. Something is causing that input shaft to spin and I think it is something to do with pilot being. But it has to come out now.
Doug: Is your clutch working now? I thought the last we spoke you were having the same problem as Pengee and myself. Did you go back to an old set up?

[Hank Scorpio]

No, this was way back when I first did the swap. My problem was the fork would hit the PP before disengaging the clutch. Ended up making a taller T/O bearing.

Sounds to me like your pilot bearing is goofed.

[Turborg]

I too think that it is the pilot bearing. I shimmed the trans away from the adapter and the trans stopped making noise(I think the noise is gone because the input shaft bearing is now free to float as it should instead of being pressed back to a rearward position)and I have a quick strong engagement of the clutch now. I actually backed off the adjustment of the clutch and the above resulted. I still have noise that I think is a result of a damaged pilot bearing but I am not going to pull the trans for a while as it is working OK for now. I think the pilot bearing was damaged by having the input shaft forced into it by improper clearance. Still just a theory til I pull it. Anyway, Davis here I come! Two days ago I didn't think there was anyway I could possibly make it. All these trans problems has also kept me from enjoying a exceptionally nice running B23FT. I should be happy that it was trans rather than motor problems.

[coondog240]

1/4" thick plate steel welded to the bottom of the crossmember. Couldn't have been easier.

http://www.pbase.com/image/27481434.jpg


could I get some dimensions for this plate so I can make one?

Thanks,
Jeremy

[Hank Scorpio]

Jeremy, I'll take them this weekend for you (I have it sitting on the ground). IIRC it wont need much, 2x4 I think

[noah244ti]

4"x6"........ ; )

[coondog240]

Hey Thanks abunch. It should be in this weekend.

[RvolvoR]

so has anybody attempted this swap w/ the 700/900 series volvos? if so what tranny did you use? do you use the one from a camaro, if so i need some info on how it worked out. if you used the ford one , how much hacking was involved for the shifter to work?

[volvo9]

so has anybody attempted this swap w/ the 700/900 series volvos? if so what tranny did you use? do you use the one from a camaro, if so i need some info on how it worked out. if you used the ford one , how much hacking was involved for the shifter to work?
I've got a mustang T5 in my 94 940. To get the shifter to fit you have to cut some of the metal at the front of the shifter hole in the body of the car. I made my own shifter from a piece of scrap metal. In the picture I haven't installed the trans mount yet, the little shifter piece on the trans that the shifter bolts to riases up when the mount is installed.

http://home.comcast.net/~volvo9/100.jpg

[Mach375]

I'm the fist (only?) to have put a Ford T5 in my 700.
You need to re-read through the thread more carefully (at all). Your question is answered in detail, sans pictures on my behalf. (DON"T JUST PERUSE THROUGH, IGNORING ANYTHING THAT'S OLDER THAN A WEEK. THIS THREAD HAS LOADS OF HELPFUL INFO IF YOU JUST SPEND THE TIME TO READ IT)

[Turborg]

After trying everything under the sun to solve the initial shifting problems with this conversion, nothing worked. Then after the clutch had been in about 200 miles, the shifting started to improve. Now with approx. 2K on the car, the shifting problems are gone. Turns out the problem was the puck style clutchplate. It is .335 thick versus .315 thick for the stock volvo clutch. Once some of the thickness of the clutch plate is worn off, it no longer spins the input shaft of the trans with the clutch in. Mine measured .325 when I checked it when I had my car apart to remove the Clutchnet p/p. I am using my stock pressure plate til I reinstall the Clutchnet p/p, which has been upgraded to the 100% over stock(two spring diaphrams vs one). One of the other guys also had the p/p upgraded and the clutch plate resurfaced also. When reinstalled, the shifting problem was there again. It had been shifting good before the clutch reline, which indicates the extra thickness is what is causing the shifting problem.
Clutchnet thru all this has been very responsive and helpful. They are truly interested in having satisfied customers. You can always expect problems with new setups, but with the cooperation of Clutchnet combined with tbrickers working to solve the problems, this conversion very soon will be trouble free.

[Hank Scorpio]

You know... I should have measured my puck set up. Hopefully its right.

Could you shift the car before? Just required some extra effort, or is it screwed for a while?

[Turborg]

Doug: My car was like several of the others initially. I had to shut it off to get into reverse. As I said in my other post, it did start shifting better as the plate wore down. Now it shifts easily into all gears, even reverse. To work out of the box, the thickness should be removed. Otherwise, you will just have to live with it til it wears in. I did help mine along by intentionally slipping the clutch for short periods. I would not recommend this to anyone else because of the potential for serious damage to the clutch, p/p, and flywheel.

[Bready]

http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=23541

[temporary link to another T5 install - will merge later]

[Two 87s]

Hooray! (I think...)

I just finished my T5 install. It took a little while because I ran into a few snags along the way, but so far I'm still glad I did it.

The car: 1984 245 GLT, originally with M46 (first tuned by tuff240, came to me by way of jackbombay)
The parts: junkyard T5 from a '91 Mustang, McLeod throwout bearing, v-performance.com adapter plate, clutch, pressure plate, and lightweight aluminum flywheel (clutch and pressure plate are therefore the clutchnet models), B&M short shifter, stock mustang tranny mount

I'm planning to write a step-by-step guide (of sorts) for this swap for the 240 series. I'm very much indebted to Doug and the others that came before me and have provided me help with this swap. I figure that the least I can do is take all the knowledge they've discovered and make a nice write-up so all the vital information is in one easy format.

Before I get to that, though, I have a question for the guys who've done this swap.

I'm having trouble shifting into gear. As I said, it's the Clutchnet clutch and pressure plate, and I understand some people have had problems with those. I'm using the McLeod throwout bearing, so the bearing height should be correct. I've tried adjusting the clutch cable quite a bit. If I adjust it so that the fork is as far forward as possible, the throwout bearing obviously rides against the pressure plate so much that the clutch won't engage at all. If I adjust it as far back as possible, the clutch engages fine, but I find that the gears are really hard to shift into. I've got it set somewhere in the middle right now, and the clutch engages fine. The gears are still really hard, though. I have to completely shut off the engine to get into reverse without grinding. The other gears sometimes just take a little nudging and sometimes take the strength of an ox.

(I should note that the transmission shifts fine into all gears with the car off.)

Now, I know a few people said that the Clutchnet pressure plate is thicker, and that some shifting issues go away once the clutch wears down a bit. I want some opinions, though, on whether that's what my problem likely is. So please, weigh in.

I've been rushing to get this done before this weekend because I would really like to take this wagon on a long trip. That would give plenty of miles to break/wear in the clutch, but I want to be sure that I don't have some other issue before I get out on the open road.

(As an aside, is everyone using the stock rubber shifter boot? I've yet to install anything, so I can still see the open road (and smell my clutch!) through the hole... I tried to put the stock rubber boot on, but it doesn't seem ideal for the new shifter position. So is anyone using anything else?)

Thanks,
Aaron

[Hank Scorpio]

Aaron, when did you get your clutch? A while ago? I got my new one from CN about ... 4 months ago? It worked fine. The problem (was, I hope) the disc is a bit to thick. It'll wear and you'll be doing fine in a month or so.

[Two 87s]

I got all the parts from John Parker around the end of July, so that was just a few months ago. So I would have to ask him, but I assume that I got the most "up to date" parts in terms of what works for this swap. I got a lightweight aluminum flywheel, Clutchnet pressure plate and clutch... I don't know anything more than that, since I basically just told John my power goals (a vague range around 220hp+, I believe) and he sent me these parts.

He referred me to McLeod for this throwout bearing, which is an adjustable Ford-compatible bearing. I installed it as I received it, with the two spacer rings installed.

I'm guessing from everything I've read that the clutch needs to wear a bit. I wonder though... why is it that some folks are having issues and others are not?

Has there really been a solution to the problem with this combination of parts, or is that what's causing the problem? (Obviously we can't compare to someone who used a stock flywheel, stock clutch, stock pressure plate, etc...)

I'm going to cross my fingers at this point, I guess, and hope that it wears in okay. I'm otherwise out of ideas.

(Any ideas on the shifter boot, anyone?)

Aaron

[Hank Scorpio]

Sounds like an older disc to me. I wouldn't worry about it.

[Two 87s]

Okay... I'm no pioneer of this swap, but I felt I should do something helpful for the rest of you contemplating doing this yourselves. So, I've done a write-up. I'm only slightly better at writing than car repair, so if you notice anything that needs to be changed, drop me at e-mail (aaron at aaronreedbaker.com).

To conserve bandwidth for my host, the pictures I took are at the bottom of the page as individual links.

The write-up:
<a href="http://www.aaronreedbaker.com/t5swap.html">www.aaronreedbaker.com/t5swap.html</a>

Aaron

[Hank Scorpio]

Wow Aaron looks GREAT!!! Great article!

Thanks for the kudo's btw :D

[Mach375]

Haven't read your write-up, but let me add a couple cents.

Seems as though the disc that JP is supplying is perhaps too thick. I used a Spec-Clutch disc (6-puck carbon/ceramic), and have had absolutely no issues with gear engagement, including reverse. The tranny shifts and acts just as if it came from the factory like this.
The disc is supposed to be pretty grippy with a bit of slip, but I can say it is surprisingly streetable. I was expecting it to be neck-snapping engagement, but once it broke in (only 250 miles), it engaged like butter and held like a mad SOB muckerfuther. This is absolutely positively undeniably the most bestest greatest wonderfullest clutch disc I can imagine. And it's supposed to be good to at least 450HP.

ClutchNet 100% overstock clamping-pressure PP (double-spring). Volvo B23F.
Spec-Clutch 6-puck carbon/ceramic disc. Ford 2.3L NA Mustang.
Stock B23F iron FW. Will be McLeod-made AL FW when I get it running again.
McLeod hyd TO bearing. Ford T5 bolt-on model.
JP's adaptor plate.
CNC'd bellhousing. Volvo B23F.

[Hank Scorpio]

Shane, I think that Clutchnet has them dialed in because mine worked fine from the get go (my newest clutch)

[Brick_Owner]

On driveshafts....

There is no "rule" that applies to a D/S length vs. resonant frequency by which it can be determined just by length, diameter, or a combination of the two.

To calculate the "critical speed" (or RPM) of a driveline, you NEED to know some very specific things:
-length, joint center to joint center
-outside diameter
-wall thickness
-modulus of elasticity (varies by material, grade and hardness)

I don't have the formula, but a internet aquaintance of mine who is a "NVH" engineer at FMC has run numerous calcs for me in the past for some of the drag cars I've worked on.

Basically, the shorter each section is, the faster it will rotate, the more Tq it will transmit, and the smaller in diameter it needs to be. In almost EVERY case, two shorter shafts are "better" than one long one. The only real reason some OE's use a single shaft is overall cost. If they can "sneak by" with a single shaft, they do so, even if it means programming a very slow upper road speed limit (under 95 MPH for example). When you are building 100,000 units/year, saving $5/unit is a LOT of savings over time.

[940T_Drifter]

Who would like to be my personal guide through this world of confusion, I want to do the swap and have the ressources, I'm just so lost :???: :???: :???:

Thanks...

[stylngle2003]

try kenny (linuxman51) or shane (mach375) <---if he is still on this forum, i havent seen him in a long long time here

[940T_Drifter]

Yeah, I was thinking of hiring linuxman51 to be my coach... He could also help me with my megasquirt-phobia :oops:

[Mach375]

if he is still on this forum I'm still here. Just not a whole lot. I feel kinda bad about it. But then again, my excuse is, in order: new house, new job, home improvements on new house.

I guess I need to be abundantly clear on my set-up, since many people seem to not read what I have (I continue to get PMs about my ClutchNet disc setup, which I don't have!).

Now please, read this. READ THIS!!
This is Shane's (Mach3.75's) transmission set-up:
'83 B23F block, '79 B21F crank, B23F bellhousing
'93 Mustang 5.0 T5 (tag 208)
The Clutch disc: Spec-Clutch 6-puck carbon/ceramic for a 4-cyl NA Mustang
The Pressure Plate: ClutchNet 100% over-stock clamping pressure for an '83 B23F
The entire clutch (dis)engagement and throwout bearing: McLeod hydraulic throwout bearing for a '93 Mustang T5, linked to a hydraulic master cylinder from a stock '91 Volvo 944ti.

And that is my set-up as it stands (well, technically, "as it stands" is currently on the garage floor, waiting for me to pull the head and work on #4 after dropping a valve).
Please note that I am NOT using a ClutchNet clutch disc!!!!! This seems to be the assumption everyone is making.

Here are the results, as best as my memory serves, from when it was running:
I had NO engagement problems (though first is a little tall, at 3.31:1)
It shifted into reverse like butter--as if it came from the factory that way
I had no vibration
I had no noise
I had no chatter
I had no slipping
It took about 100 miles to break in, maybe less (I was expecting at least 250, maybe even 500!!)
The clutch engages like butter (again, as if from the factory). This was a tremendoous surprise to me, since I was stepping up to what I thought was a particularly grabby disc for my application, and especially when I considered the 100% over PP. I was expecting neck-snapping, engine-stalling engagement even after it was broken in. Turns out this disc is designed to be particularly smooth on engagement, yet hold power like it's welded to the PP. I can't even describe my nut-busting joy over this disc choice!
The only complaint I have, and this may be due to a plethora of minor changes/modifications/adjustments/etc I still have yet to make, is that it disengages only when the pedal is as far as it will go--"through the floor" as I like to call it. And also, when I'm really getting aggressive with it, it likes to occassionally go soft on me (like there's an air bubble or a slight leak or something having to do with the hyd TOB). But like I said, I'm positive it's a matter of minor fixes that I need to just go ahead and do.

As for things I would do differently next time, about the only thing that comes to mind is to find some way of locating the shifter stub about 8" further back. I had no problem relocating the shifter handle, but it did mean I had to cut away a section under my fuse panel, and then re-mount my fuse panel higher and further forward. If the shifter stub coming out of the gearbox was further back to begin with, I wouldn't have to cut out any sheetmetal. There is likely a way to do this by hybridizing a variety of T5s: say, a Camaro front section with input shaft, an Isuzu Trooper tail section, and 5.0 Mustang internals (this is only a random grouping of available T5 applications; I'm not saying they all fit together, or would even work as a unit!), but at the time I was installing mine, I was the pioneer for the 700s and there wasn't exactly a whole lot of information available to me. Of course, if you've got the money, the shifter relocation may not even be an issue, since you could go with a T56 or even a Tremec.

[linuxman51]

I notched the tunnel as well, I hear tell the camaro tailshaft puts the shifter ~3 inchs back, wich would be perfect (however, it also puts the mount at a funny angle, potentially interesting to fab a bracket).

I'm getting a ford slip yoke attached to a volvo auto driveshaft (and the shaft shortened appropriately.. for me this was 16 inches from the tailshaft of the transmission to the first bolt hole for the center support plate)

the only thing i'm expecting to hafta fab is the shifter arm, it turns out the setup i got has too short of a throw. I might also elongate the middle piece to place the shifter a little further back.
pics of this will follow, at the moment the transmission is on the floor of the garage waiting for the driveshaft and tranny mount.

[Mach375]

I suppose I also need to add:

Due to the crossmember on the 700s, I am running the two-piece driveshaft, like stock. I had a DS shop come out with a single-piece shaft made up for me, but we couldn't get it in with the crossmember. I didn't want to remove the crossmember, either, because it sure as hell looks like it is structurally very important. Unfortunately, that crossmember is welded to the body, otherwise I would've just unbolted it and used a single shaft.
(The crossmember of which I speak is for the DS center support bearing, since you're wondering).
From what I hear, the 200s don't have this crossmember and a single shaft is easy to do.
I figure that unless someone is willing to take a big risk with structural integrity, 700 owners are going to be stuck with a two-piece DS.
.
.
.
.
........Of course, now that I'm talking about it, I'm giving some slight consideration to going out and removing the crossmember and finding a way to bolt it up, so that I can go with a single shaft........

[dennis]

Anybody tried to put a Bimmer tranny in a 700??My new email address is dhatfield456@comcast.net. Thanks. Dennis

[740ATL]

Anybody tried to put a Bimmer tranny in a 700??My new email address is dhatfield456@comcast.net. Thanks. Dennis

uh yep... if you had searched the performance forum you would have found them.

http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=22401&highlight=getrag+conversion
and
http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=19506&highlight=getrag

[Turborg]

I have been trying to figure out a decell vibration on my car since I installed my T-5Z. Almost everyone who installed the Clutchnet pressure plate and disc has experienced this problem. I removed the original Clutchnet pressure plate as it was slipping bad(was supposed to be 50% stronger than stock). I installed my Sachs pressure plate with the Clutchnet disc and it no longer slipped but still vibrated on decell. Having had the trans out at least three times to replace/check parts, the vibration was really starting to get to me. Having changed everything but the clutch disc, I decided to install these parts.

http://www.pbase.com/image/54371965

I just finished with my test drive and the vibration is gone! Before, I had quite a bit of shifter vibration, especially on decell. Now the shifter has the same feel accellerating and decellerating. The clutch engaged and disengaged perfectly the first try. I did put in a different T-5 as I wanted to try the lower ratios. When I had everything apart, I indexed the flywheel to the bellhousing/adapter. The bellhousing and John Parkers' adapter were spot on. Next I did some tests on the disc. It was sloppy on the input shaft compared to the new Spec clutch plate and another ford disc that I have(I bought a reman 8.5 for disc but decided not to use it). My battery is out on my digital calipers, but I was seeing some big differences between the Clutchnet disc and the Ford discs. I will post the differences when I get a battery for my calipers. Its my opinion that the clutch disc was rattling on the input shaft when it wasn't under load.
I really like the 3.35 low gear ratio of the T-5. I also like the .68 overdrive compared to the .63 of the T-5Z. I was only able to drive it about 20 miles but I like it!! I will put a couple hundred miles on it in the next week.

[Billiam500]

*click- add to favorites*
has anyone here put a t5 in a 140?
I have a 142 with a long throw shifter, and I want to put in a true 5 speed. My only REAl concern is that the tunnel is not tall enough.:???:

[Turborg]

*click- add to favorites*
has anyone here put a t5 in a 140?
I have a 142 with a long throw shifter, and I want to put in a true 5 speed. My only REAl concern is that the tunnel is not tall enough.:???:
I think V-performance sells a adapter for the pushrod motor bellhousings. The tunnel may be too narrow(looks like it is on my p122.)

[Billiam500]

I know about the adapter, and I'm pretty sure my 71 has the wider tunnel, but my car has the long-throw shifter, and i think the rearward shifter 140's has a taller tunnel to accomodate the shift linkage. I'm not sure if the t5's require a taller tunnel.

[Tick]

Due to the crossmember on the 700s, I am running the two-piece driveshaft, like stock. I had a DS shop come out with a single-piece shaft made up for me, but we couldn't get it in with the crossmember. I didn't want to remove the crossmember, either, because it sure as hell looks like it is structurally very important.

Has anyone cut this out? American cars use bolt-on upgrade frame connectors. Or could it be put in with the rear axle out?

[BILLBARD]

Hello All:
I'm just doing the initial research as to converting my 940T from automatic to a T5 transmission. I've noticed in the posts I've read about this conversions that the bell housing must be modified. I've contacted John Parker about the conversion and he told me he hasn't converted a 940. OK, in light of the similarities of 740 and 940 cars and many of the posts I've read are about those conversion, my question is, what modification must be done to the 740/940 Bell housing to accommodate this conversion? I'm just doing the ground work and probably will have more questions before it's done. Can someone fill me in, please?
Oh, by the way happy New Year.
Regards,
Bill

[Chumley360]

Can anyone comfirm or deny that where the bellhousing bolts to the front case is the same from unit to unit? I know that there are differences in input shaft lengths, output shaft lengths, tail housing and gears. But the four bolts in the front should all be in the same place right?

[Hiniou]

Now just read the all of the posts and since I own a 740 I check mostly for info pertaining to that car and now for shifter position:

why is it that nobo dy used something like this?
http://www.mn12performance.com/mn12parts/shifterbox/install/SBE-install.html
or made a adapter of this kind, would seem to be the perfect choice since exact shifter postion could be achieved.

-Gab

[koenvbr]

will the adaptor fit on one of these guys?? Tremec TKO500-600?

http://www.roadcraftuk.co.uk/index.asp?productID=TRE500FD&display=main&Col_Category=Transmission+%26+Drivetrain&Col_SubCategory=Manual+Transmissions&Col_SubSubCategory=Five+Speed

[Chumley360]

OK well after a few months of building, then a few months of waiting, my friend and I got my T-5 into my 740. I got a 3.35 1st gear unit with a .68 OD. I have no idea how it feels yet because after three pumps of the pedal my slave cylinder exploded, then other mishaps ensued, in short my car hates me. But I did get a few pics of everything and posted them to my gallery. So here's a link: Chumley's T-5 crap (http://chumley.meltphace.org/main.php?g2_itemId=133)
I've still got a few odds and ends to clean up, like an inner shift boot and finishing up the shifter angle/position, and covering up my fuse box.

[740ATL]

OK well after a few months of building, then a few months of waiting, my friend and I got my T-5 into my 740. I got a 3.35 1st gear unit with a .68 OD. I have no idea how it feels yet because after three pumps of the pedal my slave cylinder exploded, then other mishaps ensued, in short my car hates me. But I did get a few pics of everything and posted them to my gallery. So here's a link: Chumley's T-5 crap (http://chumley.meltphace.org/main.php?g2_itemId=133)
I've still got a few odds and ends to clean up, like an inner shift boot and finishing up the shifter angle/position, and covering up my fuse box.

Did you put the S-10 tail housing on the back of it?

[Chumley360]

Did you put the S-10 tail housing on the back of it?

No that tail housing is from an 88 Camaro. The one from the S-10 has the shifter positioned just behind the tail shaft hosing bolt circle.

[socalsean]

No that tail housing is from an 88 Camaro. The one from the S-10 has the shifter positioned just behind the tail shaft hosing bolt circle.

Could you use a Camaro V6 tail shaft housing?

[Chumley360]

OK just to clarify the GM trans that I used came out of an 88 Camaro 2.8L V6. By comparison the Mustang shifter would have been in my fuse panel in 1st gear. As it is the fuse panel didn't have to get moved.

[MrDoug]

do you have any pics?

[Chumley360]

do you have any pics?

Check up about 5 thread lines. There's a link to my picture gallery.

[mattastik]

hi, im fairly new to this forum. i've recently aquired my first volvo, a 86 244 dl. in the short time that i've had it i have really enjoyed driving and working on it. the only thing that i want to change about it is the transmision, and the T5 seems to be the way to go. could any one tell me what to buget for to do this swap?

[MrDoug]

$700 & up Depending on where you buy the trans from- prices vary greatly- from $75 from a U-Pull, to $1300 for a brand new unit- Average price for a good used T5 is about $300

[mattastik]

cool, to the junkyard. project "brick-box" is go!!! :)

totally off topic, but what's with the black bars on all the avitars?

[JamesD]

I did not read all the threads so I do not know if this has been mentioned, if it has take it as a conformation. Being that I own a Mustang and worked around Camaro's as well I can give some info.

83-93 V8 Mustangs with the T5 have the same length input shaft with 10 spline. The 94-95 Mustang V8 has a longer input shaft. The strongest Mustang T5's are 90-93. If you decide to use a 4cyl T5 the input shaft for the pilot bearing is smaller. What Mustang guys do to put a 4cyl trans in a V8 was to use a 89 Ford Probe Turbo pilot bronze bushing which fill fit right in the crank of a 302 and has the same diameter as the 4cyl input shaft. I can't remember but someone mentioned the Mustang V8 pilot bearing is the same dimension as a whiteblock or was it the red block? Either way now you can use the 4 cyl trans instead of the V8.

The 4cyl trans will hold up to a STOCK Mustang V8 for a reasonable amount of time if you do not use slicks. The 4cyl trans has a steep first gear than that of a V8 T5. Shifters will swap and so does pretty much everything else. So if you need to use a 4 cyl trans you can.

Camaro T5's are not that strong as the Mustang V8 T5. You can compare the Camaro V8 T5 to a Mustang 4cyl T5 trans. Camaro T5's use different shifters and will not swap with Mustang T5's. The input splines are 26 vs the Mustangs 10. The two trans are not the same in length as well. Internal parts don't exactly swap either and I think the input shaft is a different length as well. If all possible stay away from Camaro T5's or any GM T5's since GM never had them "beefed" up when they put them behind a V8 like Ford did.

I believe someone mentioned a 300ZX T5. My friend has an 87 300zx non-turbo with T5. Mustang Shifters are a direct swap. These trans have similar dimensions as the Mustang V8 T5. I believe it has the same input length as well but I'am not 100% sure. The turbo 300zx 84-89 believe are the same T5.

Here is some links for info on Mustang T5's:

http://www.5speeds.com/t5/
http://www.mustanggt.org/gttranny.htm
http://ddperformance.com/Trans%20ID%20chart.htm

GM:

http://www.inliners.org/Jack/t5_page.html
http://www.garage-scene.com/t5-into-ag-body/t5_install_identifying.htm

James

[Chumley360]

James your info is only partly correct. What you are talking about with the weak GM T-5 is the difference between the World Class and Non-World Class. Ford only used the NWC for a few short years, then made the WC the standard. While GM used the NWC for many years, until around 89, then they began using the WC version with V8s and standardized it by 90 or 91. All of the GM T-5s use a steel input shaft bearing retainer as opposed to Ford using an aluminum one, with steel being an aftermarket upgrade or only on the T-5 Crobra trans. Also, at least according to all the production numbers I've got, all GM V8 T-5s came with a 2.95 first gear. Parts are interchangeable between trans types(ie: GM, Nissan, Isuzu, Ford, etc parts will all swap if the donors are all WC or all NWC types.) You can't mix WC and NWC parts, well on some stuff you can but that requires machining and it's another story completely.

So don't discount the GM T-5 yet. It just takes a little more work to find the right one, they weren't as nice as Ford was about giving up strength. But as 4th gen F-bodies are starting to pop up more in the wrecking yards the V6 T-5 would be one of the best picks for us. It's got a 3.35 first gear and a .78 OD, someone would just need to start making adapters for them. With the shorter input shafts and different bolt pattern it's more involved than the standard Ford T-5 adapter. But I think GM did finally go away from the butterfly pattern in the fourth gens, I could be wrong though it's way early.

[JamesD]

James your info is only partly correct. What you are talking about with the weak GM T-5 is the difference between the World Class and Non-World Class. Ford only used the NWC for a few short years, then made the WC the standard. While GM used the NWC for many years, until around 89, then they began using the WC version with V8s and standardized it by 90 or 91. All of the GM T-5s use a steel input shaft bearing retainer as opposed to Ford using an aluminum one, with steel being an aftermarket upgrade or only on the T-5 Crobra trans. Also, at least according to all the production numbers I've got, all GM V8 T-5s came with a 2.95 first gear. Parts are interchangeable between trans types(ie: GM, Nissan, Isuzu, Ford, etc parts will all swap if the donors are all WC or all NWC types.) You can't mix WC and NWC parts, well on some stuff you can but that requires machining and it's another story completely.

So don't discount the GM T-5 yet. It just takes a little more work to find the right one, they weren't as nice as Ford was about giving up strength. But as 4th gen F-bodies are starting to pop up more in the wrecking yards the V6 T-5 would be one of the best picks for us. It's got a 3.35 first gear and a .78 OD, someone would just need to start making adapters for them. With the shorter input shafts and different bolt pattern it's more involved than the standard Ford T-5 adapter. But I think GM did finally go away from the butterfly pattern in the fourth gens, I could be wrong though it's way early.

Most GM vehicles have the NWC trans in them. I have seen them behind the V8 in an 90 Camaro but I'am not 100% sure it was the original trans. Plus Mustang T5 has more aftermarket support.

James

[MrBill]

I hate bumping old threads - what is the p/n of the napa speedo cable?
edit: and which speedo drive gear do I need for 3.73?

[Kevin Hawkinson]

This is the best T5 application chart that I've ever seen:
http://www.britishv8.org/Articles/Bo...T5-ID-Tags.htm

[Karl Buchka]

Link doesn't work. Here's one that does:

http://www.britishv8.org/Articles/Borg-Warner-T5-ID-Tags.htm

[Sinbad the Sailor]

On the chart the 2nd gear ratio is higher than 1st. Is that normal? Or are those reversed?

[Kevin Hawkinson]

the first number in the chart is reverse

[fiorano]

i asked before and searched- any one have dimensions for a T-5 swapped B20 in a 122 ?
or where i can get a shaft made?

[Evan780]

I asked a few n00b questions and got some good answers on identifying T5's from the salvage yard/pick'n pull. Those ID numbers on the housing can be misleading if it's been rebuilt. Need to be able to tell the difference between WC and NWC along with how to get the gear ratios from checking out the internals. Thread here (http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=134279)

[Mueller]

I hate bumping old threads - what is the p/n of the napa speedo cable?
edit: and which speedo drive gear do I need for 3.73?

did you ever get this??

I just picked up a T5 transmission yesterday.....

[90slowstang]

So I am new, I have a question about the 300zx transmission, so I have a 90 mustang 5.0 and the second gear and third gear have teeth missing from the gears...but I have a 300zx transmission...with all that bolt up, with I need anything...do I use my bell housing...thanks guys

[500dollar744ti]

^^^ this is a volvo site haha, the info contained here is for swapping the t5 out of a v8 mustang into a volvo.

i have a volvo with a turbo ford 5.0 in it but i went with the automatic precisely because i don't want to deal with what you have going on.

your best bet is to find another t5 or upgrade... i have never heard of a 300zx trans adapter for a mustang but i also haven't been keeping up on it.

are you a member of www.corral.net? they are the best mustang resource forum out there in my opinion... if you join, surely someone will have the answer for you.

[HB of CJ]

You should have pulled further off the road. Passing traffic is way too close to your priceless Volvo. Sorry it was sooss hot. JUST KIDDING! Lots of posts regarding the proper I.D. of your T5. You want to be sures what you have. Lots of different models.

About the only way to be sure is to take it completely apart and check all the major parts. I bought a T5 (cheap) only to find that it was NOT a "world class" (whatever that actually means) but only a wide ratio for a Turbo 4 Mustang.

Also...for whatever it is worth, (nothing!) even the desirable HD T5's have a very good 1st thru 4th gear sets (a progressive drop) BUT 5th gear is a high OD and miles apart from 4th gear. The 4 to 5 shift really drops the rpms. Some don't like that.

However....if you have lots of $$$, (which I don't) Richmond Gear makes a very cool street 6-speed for about $3000 bucks delivered from Summit Racing. I nearly bought one for my 1978 242GT/L33 project. 3.27, 2.13, 1.57, 1.23, 1.00, .84. Good luck. :) :) :)

[V8BRICK]

This is my post for future searchage for people in the same situation. I'm adapting a 4cyl T5 to a b230f with an m40 bellhousing (upright orientation) for insertion in my '73 142.

I had an issue with the input shaft length of my 4cyl T5 being 7.41 as opposed to the preferred 7.18". I had stuck the transmission on the engine and it did bottom out before the bell housing mated. I actually had a 7.18 input shaft sitting around but alas the first? gear on the shaft was larger than that of the 4cyl shaft. So after a ridiculous amount of searching and no answer found, I took matters into my own hands and those of the chop saw. I took about .25" off the tip of the 4cyl input shaft and slapped it all together and it bolted up and verified that the 10 input shaft splines do not bind with the throw out bearing (when I put the tranny in gear and spin the output shaft, no clutch installed), which was a worry.

Am I dumb? Has this been covered before? All I saw on v-performance was mention that the pilot bearing was the same diameter of the 4cyl T5s. The other option was to space the adapter out .25" but that seemed like a lot of work lol I'm lazy. Now I just need to find a new input bearing retainer that doesn't exist!

[Citysurf740]

hey any has the diagram to install the wires for revere.... thanks

[Mueller]

This is my post for future searchage for people in the same situation. I'm adapting a 4cyl T5 to a b230f with an m40 bellhousing (upright orientation) for insertion in my '73 142.

I had an issue with the input shaft length of my 4cyl T5 being 7.41 as opposed to the preferred 7.18". I had stuck the transmission on the engine and it did bottom out before the bell housing mated. I actually had a 7.18 input shaft sitting around but alas the first? gear on the shaft was larger than that of the 4cyl shaft. So after a ridiculous amount of searching and no answer found, I took matters into my own hands and those of the chop saw. I took about .25" off the tip of the 4cyl input shaft and slapped it all together and it bolted up and verified that the 10 input shaft splines do not bind with the throw out bearing (when I put the tranny in gear and spin the output shaft, no clutch installed), which was a worry.

Am I dumb? Has this been covered before? All I saw on v-performance was mention that the pilot bearing was the same diameter of the 4cyl T5s. The other option was to space the adapter out .25" but that seemed like a lot of work lol I'm lazy. Now I just need to find a new input bearing retainer that doesn't exist!

there is an article that shows someone else cutting the same amount off the input shaft, it was a V-performance related article, I'll see if I can find it. I'll be in the same boat, I too have the 4 cylinder WC T5, what I am working on now is a steel bearing retainer housing instead of the alumium for the throwout bearing.

[Mueller]

hey any has the diagram to install the wires for revere.... thanks

not sure, but I would think the circuit would be normally open and once in reverse, the circuit closes.....easy enough to check with a voltmeter or by even touching the 2 wires together manually

[Bartezz]

Hi all,

I can get my hands on a T5 from a Ford Sierra Cosworth. Supposedly the gear ratios are as followed:

1st, 2.95:1
2nd, 1.94:1
3rd, 1.34:1
4th, 1:1
5th, 0.80:1

These would be better than the Mustang 5L V8 T5's gear ratios right? The input shaft is 10 spline and 180mm long.
Yet according to www.dellowauto.com.au the pilot bush is 43/64 (instead of 19/32 of the Mustang T5) will this give me any trouble in the swap?

Thanx all!
Bartezz

[blkaplan]

A heads up, I know have t5 adapters in stock @ a reduced price.

http://www.kaplhenke.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=84&Itemid=32

[VolvoPunch]

A heads up, I know have t5 adapters in stock @ a reduced price.

http://www.kaplhenke.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=84&Itemid=32

I would be nice if you made a T5 bracket mount that would bolt up to the Volvo transmission cross member. :nod:

[pinguin]

A heads up, I know have t5 adapters in stock @ a reduced price.

http://www.kaplhenke.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=84&Itemid=32

I know, I just ordered one...

[MrBill]

I would be nice if you made a T5 bracket mount that would bolt up to the Volvo transmission cross member. :nod:

we just hammered the aluminum piece from the t5 to bend it to bolt up to the stock trans mount in the volvo.

[blkaplan]

I would be nice if you made a T5 bracket mount that would bolt up to the Volvo transmission cross member. :nod:

I am going to be making cross members.

[Michael Garvin]

T5 to T5 960 bellhousing adapt plates?

[pinguin]

I am going to be making cross members.

:boink:

[doucheNozzle]

I am going to be making cross members.

This still happening?

[Bready]

Either of you two clowns clutter this thread again with that crap - requiring me to spend 20 minutes cleaning up the thread on a night when I need to get to bed early in order to be in the bar at 6:00 AM to watch the world cup - you are both getting wacked for a week.

Enough

Onward.

:rant:

KTP

[550]

Are the T5/TKO housing adapters good to run a 16v angled and or non angled? I'm planning to mount this engine non angled.

***********Nevermind I learned how to read.*******************




Answer is yes

[2fast4u]

Sorry Mr. Bready.:oops:


Scotty, wanna play with my LEGOs?

[nathaninwa]

Are the T5/TKO housing adapters good to run a 16v angled and or non angled? I'm planning to mount this engine non angled.

***********Nevermind I learned how to read.*******************




Answer is yes

Im acutally running my vert 16v with a V8 gm tranny....from the factory the t5's tilt at like an 18* angle, and the volvo setup is like at 20*, so it actually puts the tranny in a perfect location to run a xmember level

I had to tweak the shifter just little to get hand clearance from the console on the 1-3-5 shifts.

I also used an S-10 shifter for the quickness

[Hilgie]

does anyone do a T5 to whiteblock adapter (prefeably using an AW3040 bellhousing) ?

[Mueller]

does anyone do a T5 to whiteblock adapter (prefeably using an AW3040 bellhousing) ?

see this thread:

http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=163457

[Dakar09]

Reviving an old thread....

The guys that have done the recent T5 swaps, what clutches are you running?

Still the Spec 8.5" puck disc? (is this for a 4cyl Mustang T5 up to 1993?
Still the Clutchnet PP 100% overstock? (is this a volvo pp for the 240 (mated to a true volvo flywheel?)
Mcleod TO bearing?
Has anybody been able to source these parts from V-performance (is he responsive)?

Thanks fellas.

[aplitz]

People have been experiencing major problems with V-Performance, there is a current thread about it. Stick with the reliable sources Avalanche, Knox, Kaplhenke.

[Dakar09]

I read that thread too, it sucks that a resource like that craps out on us. I was going to go with Avalanche, but that means I have to source the clutch parts myself with information posted in this thread, without V-Performance's help, so I want to make sure I get the right (and best) parts for my application.

[2fast242gt]

the clutch parks from avelanche are super easy to find. stock pp mustang clutch disc and a stock volvo to bearing.

[aplitz]

Just order it all from Knox. Lawrence sells Dale's adapter, and will get you the right clutch set up too.

[Dakar09]

Nice! I didn't know Knox had the full setup. I'll definitely get in touch with them this week. I thought Avalanche only had the adapter, not the clutch components.

[aplitz]

Yeah, Dale sells/makes the adapter. Lawrence not only sells Dale's stuff, but also builds cars too. Since he puts them together, he knows what parts your need.

[crazyoctopus]

in search of a cheaper option to the mcleod hyraulic throwout bearing I found this... http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/NEW-FORD-T-5-HYDRAULIC-THROWOUT-BEARING-STOCK-CLUTCHES-_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem3f05a49b15QQitemZ27067 7613333QQptZMotorsQ5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAccesso ries

think it would work?

[DustyLBottoms]

in search of a cheaper option to the mcleod hyraulic throwout bearing I found this... http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/NEW-FORD-T-5-HYDRAULIC-THROWOUT-BEARING-STOCK-CLUTCHES-_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem3f05a49b15QQitemZ27067 7613333QQptZMotorsQ5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAccesso ries

think it would work?

So, has anyone done this yet?