Capitol Driving Club Autox 4 9 05 pics now movies to come

[blkaplan]

towery got me .2 seconds but he was on hoosiers and they were hot...

i would of had him on my last run but a slight slip up made me loose it...

enjoy



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[olov]

240's reppin tb baby!

cool ben, glad the car's running well, well not well enough to beat a b230f! :rofl:

[oldschoolvolvo]

Cool. Just wondering how you and Towery's times compare to the other cars.

[blkaplan]

pretty good we will post results when they are up

[blkaplan]

240's reppin tb baby!

cool ben, glad the car's running well, well not well enough to beat a b230f! :rofl:


hey, his b230f aint stock... plus turbos really aren't that useful in autox. atleast on a b21ft they aint. not in boost long enough to overcome the weak lowend of the low compression turbo engine.

plus his car has the advantage of being 300 lbs lighter.

thats is a freaking night and day difference in autox.

[olov]

yeah, i was just kidding. and the fact that he has super stiff springs.....maybe towery's not the mack at autoxing that we all thought he was :-P

^just kidding agian, i know, i'm not funny

[blkaplan]

hes got stiff springs but he dont got 5.3 degrees of caster and 1.8 degrees of camber

custom control arms roxors the big one one oen oen oen oen oen oen oen oen en oen oen oen oen oen oen oeno noen oenoenoene

[towerymt]

hey, his b230f aint stock...
Right...lower output than stock. ;)

plus turbos really aren't that useful in autox. atleast on a b21ft they aint. not in boost long enough to overcome the weak lowend of the low compression turbo engine.
Cry me a river...

I'm holding my own with a car with twice the power. I rode in Ben's car...it's got pretty good grip with those 225/45 FRESH Azenis, and they're the same every run. I was impressed with the grip, but it's always MUCH different when you're the passenger. I know my car sticks good and throws the passenger around a lot too.

This course had relatively long straights and a few points to actually put down some power, unlike most courses on a lot that small. I feared the turbo would catch me before we even did a single run, but alas, the course was not long enough.

I was satisified with my driving, but I couldn't really make much improvement in the afternoon with warmer tires. In the morning, I did 50, 49.1, 48.3. In the afternoon, I started out driving a bit crazy to put heat in the tires, and did a 48.7 on cold/warming tires with some MAJOR slides that drew approving comments from onlookers. Ben was disappointed that I beat his best time from the morning while "driving like an asshole" on that run (he'd done a best of 48.8 in the morning) ;-) . Then I did a 48.2 that I wasn't happy with, even after I realized it WAS faster than my previous best. Finished up with a pretty tidy run of 48.0. Ben drove after me, so he knew what he had to beat. I think he did a high 48, then a 48.4...and then his overconfidence consumed his last run, and he blew it, going off course en route to a possible 47.xx...but I doubt he could have bested my 48 flat.

I wish you would just put the Hoosiers on so I can quit hearing all this whining. :-P Whether STU or DSP, you still have a higher PAX than FSP. To match my PAX, you needed 47.58 for STU, 47.35 for DSP, or 47.42 for your real class, SM. I suggest you prepare your car more accordingly in the future if you wish to beat me on raw time...or PAX if you dare attempt it.

[blkaplan]

best time was 48.22 for me

afternoon i went
48.4 48.22 then messed up and o/c on the end


btw like the pics?

[Geoff240Ti]

I wonder how a B23E would do in autocross.. keep it reved high and that motor really moves!

Awsesome pictures! Always interesting to see you two battle it out. :cool:

[olov]

pics? great shots IMO. and red cars are "ass hot spankable" :P

i'm always shocked at the front end dive. those must be some killer turns/braking(i wouldn't know, i've never autox'd)

[norcal745ti]

I wonder how a B23E would do in autocross.. keep it reved high and that motor really moves!

Awsesome pictures! Always interesting to see you two battle it out. :cool:

Sweet pics... I always enjoy seeing the Volvo's carving it up out there!

Its a lot nicer to have power in the mid range then high. Cuz just like any other racing, like drag, you'll only be at top end for a short time. Helps a lot to get you to pull/rotate out of turns... well, atleast for my driving style.

[klr142]

Cool stuff!

Quickie thought... Does more caster reduces brake dive a tiny tad bit?

[stylngle2003]

yes, but it will theoretically increase squat under acceleration....i think


it also helps with steering feel or turn in (or both?) we should have a performance alignment discussion (there has prolly already been one) to get some settings that are good for both street and track

[klr142]

yes, but it will theoretically increase squat under acceleration....i think


it also helps with steering feel or turn in (or both?) we should have a performance alignment discussion (there has prolly already been one) to get some settings that are good for both street and track
Interesting on the theoretically increasing squat under acceleration, I'm not sure if I want to agree or disagree with that, lol. But yeah, definitely improves steering feel, and coming back to center, I think it might actually hurt turn in,(or maybe it hurts steering feel?, or maybe like you said it helps both...), but I do know that with more caster you can get more camber as you turn the wheels sharper(right?)... Ha. Maybe a thread on this should be a good idea...

[towerymt]

More caster means less camber loss in cornering, I believe. It makes the steering want to go straight, so it returns to center better. But it is a heavier feel, and will not turn in as well. Think of a front whele on a shoping cart...it has negative caster (I think it's neg., opposite of a car) and it pivots very well. The front wheel on a chopper will not turn easily. Those are two extremes.

I was swapping left side wheels front to rear today, and I put on a hoosier just because it was available (just to hold the car up while I swapped wheels). This is ET12 with a 1" spacer. :-D

http://mason.gmu.edu/~mtowery/MVC-867F1.jpg

http://mason.gmu.edu/~mtowery/MVC-868F1.jpg

[jpbturbo]

I was swapping left side wheels front to rear today, and I put on a hoosier just because it was available (just to hold the car up while I swapped wheels). This is ET12 with a 1" spacer. :-D

http://mason.gmu.edu/~mtowery/MVC-867F1.jpg

http://mason.gmu.edu/~mtowery/MVC-868F1.jpg
That's sexy.

ET12 but what width is the rim?

[mikep]

A shopping cart has zero caster, because the pivot is perpendicular to the ground. But it has mondo trail.
High caster usually causes less nose dive than an inclined control arm.

[740Weapon]

auto cross looks like so much more fun than straight line.

and blkaplan please o please swap that 21ft for a 23ft and show towery whats up.

[mikep]

auto cross looks like so much more fun than straight line.

It is.

It's also great for developing accident avoidance skills.

[740Weapon]

It is.

It's also great for developing accident avoidance skills.

RAMMING SPEED!

[olov]

and blkaplan please o please swap that 21ft for a 23ft and show towery whats up.

no, msNs that b****

[towerymt]

and blkaplan please o please swap that 21ft for a 23ft and show towery whats up.
Waste of time. He already has TWO turbo cars that are slower. By the time he gets a motor in the 242, I'll be long gone.

Wheels are 7" wide.

I thought the shopping cart wheel would have neg. caster because the center point of the wheel is behind the pivot.

[blkaplan]

wasn't slower @ fedex hoosier boy!

[Yea, Right]

more caster will increase ackerman = more camber with wheels turned = good

[blkaplan]

yeah i love having 5.3 degrees.

maybe ill try to set it for 7....

i think the new m3 and 350z use a lot of caster.

[towerymt]

wasn't slower @ fedex hoosier boy!
I think that was the first time you beat me in over a year...something like 10 events. And it took inclement weather...so don't get too excited yet, Captain Camber-roo...

OK, looks like 9/22/02 was the last time you beat me. I won all of '03 and '04. Not every link to results was active for Rosecroft events, but I found a couple that we both attended, that I won.

[ashvolvo]

Your cars, despite their obvious drivetrain and suspension differences seem to balance out, you could probably find 0.2 in driving style/technique alone.

Which of you has been doing AutoX stuff longer?

[towerymt]

Your cars, despite their obvious drivetrain and suspension differences seem to balance out, you could probably find 0.2 in driving style/technique alone.

Which of you has been doing AutoX stuff longer?
Ben started at least a year before me I think, but I may have caught up on total number of events. I am more consistant, hit fewer cones, and almost never spin. Ben has moments of speed, intertwined with numerous cone penalties, and the occasional spin. We both have several areas to improve on, both in driving and car prep.

[blkaplan]

only problem is 3.5/5 years was autoxing in a very close to stock 88 245 dl with an automatic.

very slow unresponsive and just boring...

the car was so bad that it had an open diff yet i never had traction problems

the amount you can learn in that car is very small compared to say my car now because the car really responds to what you tell it.

Driver inputs have become 100x more crucial with the 242...

[ashvolvo]

So could it be that towerys driving compensates for the power difference?
Or is his suspension combination more of an advantage than more horsepower?

Would you both ever consider swapping vehicles to do a couple of runs?

[mikep]

Ackerman is toe-out on turns, which is related to inner and outer tie rod placement.

Proper Ackerman is only attainable with rear steer. Volvos and most front steer vehicles toe-in on turns (reverse Ackerman), which makes the outer tire scrub.

By moving the outer tie rods outside the ball joints on a front steer, and moving the rack way back (somewhat impossible in a road car) you can get a small amount of positive Ackerman.

Moving the inner tie rods away from the line between the spindles (forward on front steer, rearward on rear steer) increases the negative Ackerman or positive Ackerman, whichever the car is endowed or afflicted with.

Side note:
More caster can increase static jacking in turns, on some designs. It depends on the SAI.

[klr142]

So could it be that towerys driving compensates for the power difference?
Or is his suspension combination more of an advantage than more horsepower?

Would you both ever consider swapping vehicles to do a couple of runs?
Well, here are some things to think about... In autoxing, better suspension/weight/tires usually make a bigger difference on most tracks than an increase in power. And then if they were to switch vehicles, they'd have to adapt to a different car, both Volvo 240s yes, but different overall weights, one has lag and a turbo, the other has immediate response from it's NA engine, and then their suspension setups make them quite a bit different. It would take them a while to figure out how to drive the other car to their potential I'd assume. So it may not be that easy, lol.

[mikep]

Towery and I shared a ride once, and we are going to swap cars sometime.

[towerymt]

the amount you can learn in that car is very small compared to say my car now because the car really responds to what you tell it.

Driver inputs have become 100x more crucial with the 242...
I disagree. The wagon should have taught you proper line and how to maintain speed. You should have learned how to look ahead...afterall, you had plenty of time. ;-)

The 242 is more of a point & shoot style car, or at least you can get away with that style more easily. Driving Mike's Corolla requires you to maintain far more momentum which is not easily recouped.

[towerymt]

I'll be the first to admit that I am not quick to adapt to another car. The only car I've ever owned is my n/a 240. I drove Mike's car once, and I wasn't really comfortable until the last run to the point that I could really chuck it through the slalom and know it would stick. It didn't help that I was shifting up/down 2 times per run (normally the courses dont require shifting once in 2nd gear), and I had a terrible time finding 3rd gear.

At some point Mike will probably have a chance to drive my car this season. I hope I don't lose to him in my own car.

[mikep]

I forgot about that. Was it Drew that jammed 3rd?
It doesn't matter who wins, Drew and I have been trading wins and losses for about 5 years now. He is due another whooping, he beat me last time in his car.
I like riding with people, especially in my car. I also like watching it. It give another perspective on the weaknesses.

[The Guv]

Beige Power!

[blkaplan]

Beige Power!


w3rd. especially with +T beige...

to bad that car needs full poly bushings... or i would flog it at an autox...

hell maybe ill do it anyways.

its fun!

[towerymt]

I forgot about that. Was it Drew that jammed 3rd?
I drove first heat, then you two drove. I just couldn't get 3rd, I was pushing too far over to where 5th would be if it had 5th.

[blkaplan]

heres a vid
might re edit
but its decent

last 2 in the vid are me doing my 48.22 and then doing a really good one but giong off coarse and ****ing around for the last slalom of the coarse


enjoy
http://home.gwu.edu/~blkaplan/cdc49.avi

[towerymt]

Need to see more of that white car. How come it doesn't have nearly as much body roll as the red car? That's odd...

[klr142]

Need to see more of that white car. How come it doesn't have nearly as much body roll as the red car? That's odd...
Hahaha. For some reason my computer played it all back in strobe light fashion, well, with the sound anyway. But I heard enough to remind me to ask you, WHAT THE HELL DO YOU HAVE FOR EXHAUST! I hate that sound. It's flowmaster isn't it? Hahaha, sorry, that exhaust sound just rubs me the wrong way. It's all good though, and yeah, your car is flat as a biatch.

And Ben, were you lifting and spinning your inside tire a decent amount? I couldn't tell very easily through the strobelike sound effects.

[blkaplan]

no, i have a true trac :-D :-D

but i did pop out of gear several times that might be what u heard????

[towerymt]

hes got stiff springs but he dont got 5.3 degrees of caster and 1.8 degrees of camber
This just in... -2.02° camber left front, -2.17° camber right front. It was -1.95 and -2.09 as it drove on the lift, exactly as autocrossed at that event (sans hoosiers). Castor is 3.56 and 4.00.

Exhaust is annoying, especially at about 4000rpm with that buzzing. It sounds MUCH better inside the car, except around 4k. It's pretty loud at full throttle, but otherwise not that loud at all. It gives very nice pops and backfire noises at part throttle decel, and occasionally if I roll onto the gas when shifting, it will do a really loud backfiring pop. It's a 2.5" Magnaflow, straight through, mounted in the stock rear muffler location, joined to a 2.25" IPD sport exhaust under axle pipe & mid pipe, joined to a stock replacement cat, and stock forward of the cat.

With warmer weather comes a louder, more buzzy exhaust note with this setup. It changes drastically with warmer temps, proabably 50's and up. It sound particularly bad in that video clip, I must admit. In the winter snow drift vid a few months back, it was raspy, but a deeper tone with a hint of rice. Now...well you can hear it.

[ashvolvo]

Well, here are some things to think about... In autoxing, better suspension/weight/tires usually make a bigger difference on most tracks than an increase in power. And then if they were to switch vehicles, they'd have to adapt to a different car, both Volvo 240s yes, but different overall weights, one has lag and a turbo, the other has immediate response from it's NA engine, and then their suspension setups make them quite a bit different. It would take them a while to figure out how to drive the other car to their potential I'd assume. So it may not be that easy, lol.

Kyle, I couldnt agree with you more. It takes a fair amount of time in a car to get used to the difference. I'd still be interested in seeing what each can do in the others car though, and what thoughts they had on that car compared to their own.

[klr142]

Damn. That sucks! And it's a Magnaflow too, that dissapoints me... :-( (not you, but the fact that the magnaflow sounds like that in your setup) What kind of magnaflow muffler, dimensions? And nice suspension settings! :-D
I'd still be interested in seeing what each can do in the others car though, and what thoughts they had on that car compared to their own.
Yeah actually, that'd be awesome. I don't think they'd be able to come close to their normal times, but yeah, hearing what they think of the other car and maybe gaining some respect for what the other driver has to deal with to get the times they do would be cool!
no, i have a true trac :-D :-D

but i did pop out of gear several times that might be what u heard????
Lucky... :-P :-( And that could be... Why are you popping out? :lol:

[blkaplan]

http://members.cox.net/capitaldrivingclub/04-09-05results.html
results

i love beating s2000's and sti's

[oldschoolvolvo]

http://members.cox.net/capitaldrivingclub/04-09-05results.html
results

i love beating s2000's and sti's
Wow, I'd say you guys did pretty well.

[medfurd]

auto cross looks like so much more fun than straight line.

and blkaplan please o please swap that 21ft for a 23ft and show towery whats up.

IT IS!!!1 :omg:
Oh my god I went today with my friend and it was really fun. And this is in the "Oh ****, he's gonna roll over" Forester. Everyone should AutoX. Very cool pics guys.

[freedomgli]

It's funny that all my comments about Ben's car made it into the video. I didn't think our dinky PA system was loud enough to be heard on the hill. "Ben in his Volvo 242. He just put a custom built 3" stainless steel exhaust on his car. He's still slow though." Hahahahaha.

[blkaplan]

yes u are a bastard kyle!

[towerymt]

i love beating...
...the 242 TURBO!

[klr142]

I take it Freedomgli is Kyle too? Or are you talking to me? lol

[stylngle2003]

you took it right ;-)