Megasquirt info (all you need to know!)

[Hank Scorpio]

Ok, this is going to be an all out, if you've done it (only) thread. All us MS'ers are welcome to post any/all useful information you want.

First: TPS

I used an 850 TPS sensor. However, its not a direct bolt on. Using a b230 throttle body, remove the original TPS switch, you should see this:
http://www.pbase.com/image/15514776.jpg

You can see that the stock throttle shaft is to long, no problems a hacksaw fixed that with much haste! Next, the 850 TPS's closed and WOT points are "clocked" differently than the stock one. This means, its internal stops will not let the throttle close/open all the way if you try to clock it the same way as stock. What I did here was to use a piece of aluminum and started by cutting a square. I first drilled the center to fit over the throttle shaft. Then, I lined it up with the stock bracket (which you can see in the above picture), drilled and screwed it into that. Then, I rotated the TPS to where it needs to be, drilled and screwed it in, then cut away the rest. You end up with something like this:
http://www.pbase.com/image/15650818.jpg

You then wire into the 2nd and 3rd terminal, and ground the first. TPS is done!

Next, ignition:
What I did was use an MSD 6al/BTM for the ignition side of MS. You can probably make something work from stock, but this really simplifies things. Now, here, I am using a k-jet turbo dizzy. I would recommend this to anyone as you'll lose the computer control over the advance curves. With the k-jet dizzy it has a mechanical vac advance/retard built in. From there, its just two wires out to the MSD box. You'r going to use the magnetic leads on the MSD box, green to green (on dizzy) and brown to violet.

Now, if your wiring up the BTM seperate like I did, you actually (iirc) wire the dizzy to the BTM itself, then the BTM tells the 6al when to fire.
http://www.pbase.com/image/16028985.jpg
useless picture lol

Now, for sensor locations:
I got both of my Intake Air Temp (IAT) and Coolant Temp Sensors from my local parts store, using GM parts numbers that Jordan supplied. The coolant temp sensor mounts fine right in the cylinder head (where for me, the plastic, k-jet vac sensor was... thermo-time switch iirc). Two wires comes out of it, one gets grounded one goes to MS. The IAT sensor, was actually the same exact sensor. Thats what they gave me, I was iffy to see if it would work right, but it does so I guess thats good. I mounted mine here:
http://www.pbase.com/image/16028937.jpg
Now, thats an awfully thin spot in the manifold, I probably wouldn't put it there again. Seems like its working a-ok there though.

Injectors:
Figure out what your going to use ahead of time, as I had to go back and add resistor packs. For now, Im using stock 740T injectors, seems to be working ok, though Im out of fuel by 10psi or so. Thats mostly turbo related though :badboy: Bigger injectors are on the way

Fuel Lines:
If your converting a k-jet car, you'll obviously have issues with fuel lines. What I did was to cut away the stock lines away from the fuel line fittings. These are barbed, but require 1/4" fuel injection fuel line. Most places can get it, not often do they have it in stock. Get a bunch, just to be safe.
http://www.pbase.com/image/15833263.jpg

Other issues, things to look for:
Now, niether Jordan or myself are using the relay boards. The people I've talked to also think its not needed. Good enough for me! Mine seems to work just fine with out it, and it didn't really add anything to the engine bay with my wiring harness. You will need the stim though. Either build one or borrow one like I did. You'll want it.

Fuel pump relay:
Your going to need a simple relay to replace the stock fuel pump relay. What your looking for is
12V Bat in
12v switched out
12v switched source (from the car)
Ground (MS)

What I did was just pull the stock relay, and use spade connectors to just hook the new relay up into the stock location. I can go out and look and tell you what does what, just can't recall the colors off the top of my head (should be, Red is 12v bat, blue/red? fuel pump, yellow red is switched 12v)

That should get you in buisness. It also recommends a relay for the main power, I just wired the MS to a switched power source. Working fine for me.

Now, mine started first try, go figure. Hardest thing to tweak is the warmup enrichments, so once I get mine dialed in, I'll post them (and the maps), how ever, there is in other threads peoples maps. Hopefully Robin or another mod can transfer those over here, or they can just repost them.

Thats a start, hope that helps everyone!

Oh ya, read the FAQ over at megasquirt's site!

Doug

[Hank Scorpio]

Oh, more info:

Im also not using any sort of idle motor or Fast Idle Soloniod. I just use the b230 TB's idle adjustment screw to set the idle, works fine so far. Mines a pretty "back to basics" MS install, if I ever saw one.

Doug

[GTJordan]

Some more tips. When you wire 12V to the MS unit, make sure it is from a 12v source which is on during the second switch of the ignition (run) AND verify you have 12V during cranking! That was my only mistake.

I use a fast idle solinoid from an early 240. Very simple thing, 12V in (switched on with ignition on) and a ground. It opens and closes depending on tempature of the air passing through it. Make sure it works before installation.

Before you ask ANY questions, go and read this web site

http://members.shaw.ca/megasquirt/MS%20FAQ.htm

If you have EZK ignition, This guy has set it up with it.

http://www.geocities.com/perboddum/megasquirt.html

Also some other notes.

I blew up an MSD 6A so I wired in the stock ignition. I could not get a clean tach signal. I switched coils, "computers", and I still couldn't get a clean signal. This is a common occurance with the bosch ignition systems.


Good luck

Jordan

[GTJordan]

Oh one more thing...

DO NOT USE the solid brass IAT tempature sensor! (incoming air). It does not react quick enough for turbo use! If you have a NA engine this is OK to use. Just not in a turbo. You want the open cage element sensor.

Solid brass is used in the water temp.

Jordan

[the poi]

sounds good to me. anyone know if megajolt is going to have a pressure sensor input forignition advance/retard based on boost?

[GTJordan]

Probably interfaced with the MS box. Why buy two map sensors when you can run one and just attach some wires and do some programming?

You can look at Mega Jolt on that FAQ site I posted

Jordan

[CNGBrick]

I'm not a user of the MS but the ECM I use uses the same type of ECM mounted MAP sensor. When hooking up the MAP sensor, ensure that the MAP hose does not have any low spots in it and that it runs up from the engine to the MAP sensor. In other words, mount the MS higher than the MAP fitting on the engine. If you don't you will get water accumulation in the MAP hose and get faulty MAP readings -- this is even more important if you operate the car below water freezing temperature. Just ask Chrysler about their experience with ECM mounted MAP sensors.

One other thing: make sure you have perfect ground connections.

Richard Thomas

[bitjockey]

From Jesse--

[quote:3d19755496]
hey all,
i am glad to hear that more of you are going to start swapping over to the MegaSquirt system ;) doug... i've combined my neighbor's .MSQ file and mine and i think that we have a pretty good starting point for the enrichments. check them out:

ford TPS/turbo coupe injectors/b21ft/megatune 2.15

priming pulse 2.0ms/pulsewidth @40=15.0ms/@170=3.9ms
afterstart:20.0/250
warmup:145/140/135/130/125/108/101/100
TPS: .98/1.3/1.5/90/40
acceleration: 1.2/2.5/2.9/3.4

take a look at these against your values and let me know. i am really interested in the difference [if any] in your stock volvo TPS sensor.

my car and domingo's start right up, no throttle input, no fast idle solenoid etc.. he is running PWM and i am running saturated. our maps are very different [even before i swapped over to the V cam].

-jesse
[/quote:3d19755496]

[quote:3d19755496]
speaking of injectors; i do not know if there is a limit on these, but i have a line on 52# MOPAR injectors for the 2.2 turbos for $33 each [new]. i used the 27# injectors from the engine as my first set of injectors, they railed at around 193kpa [~14psi?] but i was running waaaaay rich then so i could have prob. squeezed another few psi out of them. i was also running PWM mode then, and the injectors where proving to be a pain to set up.

here is my VE table. 9.8 req_fuel:

020 x 060 059 064 064 061 056 074 080
050 x 059 063 070 070 067 059 070 083
075 x 059 067 070 070 069 063 080 083
100 x 058 066 069 069 070 070 085 097
125 x 058 065 076 074 073 085 092 109
150 x 058 067 076 082 085 097 104 120
175 x 063 073 080 087 093 111 122 138
250 x 065 072 084 095 098 112 121 134
500-1700-2700-3200-3500-4500-5100-7500

i am not sure if you will be able to use any of that...

-jesse
[/quote:3d19755496]

[bitjockey]

Hey Doug, how about a part number on that 850 TPS... Gonna start assembling my kit this weekend.

[Hank Scorpio]

Just reading off that picture:
6-200-122-001 Bosch I'll go out and double check it when I get off my fat ass ;)

[Anonymous]

hello all,
some pointers as i am the first to put the MS in a turbo volvo [well as far as i know] and have had it running since memorial day last year 8-) :

1) use the v2 of the MS or convert a v1 over to v2s flyback circut! i really mean it!

2) turbo chryslers have 27# injectors... i railed the pulse width at around 193 kpa [14psi?] running PWM and really, really rich. BTW that was damn fast!

3) domingo is running the stock ignition with no problems, he did use a shielded wire for the tach signal i believe... will find out more when i see him again.

4) run four wires to the drivers side of the dash... you will need fuel pump, tach out [MSD or stock ignition input to the MS], +12v batt +12v ignition. i just removed the stock fuel pump relay and plugged into the stock connector with a male spade connector.

5) i used a stock b21f wiring harness and took it all apart to make my harness. it looks very, very stock and i was able to check all of the wiring when reassembleing the harness [all the way to the alternator].

6) i used approx. a 6" piece of PVC and the stock elbow that has the vaccum line to the crankcase hose and a cone filter for my intake [picture on request]. the PVC pipe is infront of the turbo, and the elbow is connected to the PVC.

7) both the MSD and the MS fit [barely] under the passenger kick panel where the stock ECUs are.

8) saturated [resistor pack] mode is ALOT easier to setup... in 2months my map is alot better then it was the whole time that i ran PWM. but to PWM's defense it does have alot more control...

good luck all ;) did i mention that i will NEVER go back to CIS after MS, even with the issue with tuning?

-jesse

[Hank Scorpio]

Jesse, I couldn't agree more!

I did my fuel pump relay exactly the same.

Doug

[GTJordan]

Here are some part numbers for Temp sensors

Note: You can use the stock temp sensor. Using a config file MS has. Read the FAQ to find out how.

Open Element Temp sensors:
GM #25036979
Wells #Su107
GPSorensen #77919001
Niehoff Dr-136W

Closed Element Temp sensors (Solid brass, not recommended for Intake)
GM #12146312
Wells #SU101
GPSorensen #tsu81
Niehoff #Dr134AK
AC Delco #213-310

Jordan

[Anonymous]

hello all,
i just uploaded some pics of my car to my pbase account. there are a few pictures there that maybe of interest to those of you thinking/planning on the MS swap.

http://www.pbase.com/jaos/my_black_volvo_turbo_wagon

-jesse

[Hank Scorpio]

Good looking car there my friend!

[bitjockey]

OK Guys... finished the first part of the board tonight:

http://www.pbase.com/image/16535939.jpg

Like any electronics kit, I found it nice to lay out everything so I can see exactly what I'm working with and to make sure all my parts are accounted for:

http://www.pbase.com/image/16535943.jpg

If you're looking for a place to house this thing, I suggest the LMB Heeger anodized aluminum case. This thing is GORGEOUS... nice paint with heavy weight metal and no sharp edges. Professional looking stuff.

http://www.pbase.com/image/16535947.jpg

[Red_Liner740TIC]

Anybody outhere selling pre-assembled megasquirt computers?

i dont know if i want to do it all myself......

[Hank Scorpio]

Robin, just noticed, thats not paint thats the anno' thats black. Anno' rocks!

Redliner- surf the MS site there on their quite a bit.

Doug

[Andrew9578]

Has anyone used this on a N/A volvo....i wanted to know how well it works before i get it.

[GTJordan]

IF your going to be replacing a system that interacts with EZK, I would say that its not worth it. The one guy who has his EZK equipped car running, said he could not get any more MPG out of it.

If its a K-Jet car, I'm sure you'll pick up some milage points and some more power??

Good luck

Jordan

[Hank Scorpio]

I can second that on a k-jet car. Mine drives a 100 times better on Ms than it ever did with k-jet.

Doug

[volvorsport]

doug ,

how about a response for my email i sent you ?


id just like to buy a complete system .

[Hank Scorpio]

Shoot Dave, you sent me an email??? Crap.. so much stuff gets filtered in my junk mail I must have never seen it.

PM me (I'll get that for sure!)

[Red_Liner740TIC]

Hmm......help me out here guys i went to that megasquirt site but i couldnt find links to premade kits.....

BitJockey, how much did that kit set u back? and will u be needing to get any other components?

[Hank Scorpio]

There isn't any pre-made kits, rather kits people have built and are selling. Post on the message board, or surf it. You'll probably turn something up.

Doug

[Red_Liner740TIC]

Am i blind or what?? where is this forum? all i found was some Yahoo chat stuff but nothing concrete.......

[dirtbike]

forum can be found at bottom of the left hand menu frame.
the site address is :
www.bgsoflex.com/megasquirt.html
and the yahoo message board is :
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/megasquirt
Hope this helps, site is really difficult to get on with initally but once you've looked at it a couple of times you'll pick out the parts that apply to you.
Regards
Nick

[Red_Liner740TIC]

i'm looking at that thing and i have some questions......

buying is refered everywhere as group buy.....can i buy a single kit?
apart from

MSPKIT MegaSquirt ECU Partial Kit [ Info ] 50.00

RELAYPCB PCB Only for Relay and Power Board [ Info ] 15.00

STIMPCB PCB Only for MegaSquirt Stimulator (by Jeff Clarke) [ Info ] 20.00

apart from those things do i need to buy anything else?

what are sensors and all those thingy's gonna cost me.......
i'm seriously thinking of doing it.......

another question.......lets say i build this thing and install it......
what do i do with my ECU? i mean, how do i destinguis that megasquirt controls fuel without the ECU getting in the way

[Renny_D]

Are any of you in California - Doug? Does this affect your ability to get smogged? If so how do you get around that? Lemme know.

trying to understand the implications before possibly going down this route.

Thanks
Renny

[Hank Scorpio]

Renny,

I figure when its smog time Im at a disadvantage being that I had k-jet. Now this may pose a problem if the smog station actually has a clue what k-jet is. Most likely not, they couldn't even time my 87 DL right.

So, Im thinking, because for the most part it looks just like the stock LH system, I'll just "install" a gutted AMM with wires that run off to no-where (ehehehe) and cross my fingers.

As far as emissions go I'll take it to a smog shop that Im buddies with (they aren't the dreaded test only station though, sometimes CA-EPA/DMV makes me go to "test only" stations and sometimes any station will work) and have then test the car in "training mode". This lets them run the car, but the results aren't sent via internet automaticly to DMV. Hopefully I can then tune the car to run clean enough to pass (good ole yellow tops going back in :wink:) ... if not I guess I'll just have to make it a pure-trailered drag car :badboy:

[Renny_D]

Good to have friends with a smog machine.. :badboy:

I wonder how many smog techs would notice your "slightly" modified turbo set up... :x:

Be curious to see how it goes when smog time comes back around - it'd make an interesting prolog to this tread..


Thanks
Renny

[Hank Scorpio]

Oh, well when the time comes, lets just say a stock b21ft is going back in place :x:

[Chigga 744SE]

ok, how do u modify the MAP sensor into a 3bar sensor?

[GTJordan]

Don't worry Chigga, you'll never run enough boost to worry about it ;)

Jordan

[Hank Scorpio]

Don't worry Chigga, you'll never run enough boost to worry about it ;)

Jordan

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[Chigga 744SE]

I've been told the 2bar measurement on MS is really 1bar.

(as I've been told) the 2 bar incld 1bar of vaccum and 1bar of boost, is this correct?

[bitjockey]

The MPX4250A MAP sensor supplied in the kit reads up to 1.5bar of boost and -1bar of vacuum, including the 1bar of atmospheric pressure already present in the air.

You can change the map sensor to any kind, providing you update the code with an equivalent lookup table so that it knows what to do.

[Chigga 744SE]

^^thx.

I don't think I'll need more than 1.5bar anytime soon.

[bitjockey]

But thats whats so cool about Megasquirt... say you DID need more than 1.5 bar. Change the code a bit, re-solder in a different MAP sensor, wham, you're done.

8-)

[Hank Scorpio]

Ya I wonder when Im going to get around to putting that 3bar one in :wink:

[GTJordan]

You don't even need to re-code it. Lots of guys plug them in then just scale thier VE tables. So that 30psi (that is actual pressure) equals 20PSI (what the computer thinks)

Works good

Jordan

[poulson01]

Hey Jordan, what are you doing for a TPS? Are you using one for the 850? I'd like to use this GM unit but I havn't figured out the best way to adapt it.
http://www.pbase.com/image/17298443

[canadiangt]

I am getting all of the parts together for a megasquirt install. I was wondering what you guys are doing for the fuel system? Are you just running a k-jet system hooked into the fuel rail or is it modified. How much power will a K-jet system support?

[GTJordan]

I'm using an 850 unit. I cut the throttle shaft down a bit to fit it. Doug made a bracket, I JB welded it down.

I am running hi pressure fuel line from the stock KJet fuel filter to the fuel rail, then from the fuel rail back down the return line (stock)... I run stock K-Jet pumps, and a Turbo FPR on the fuel rail.

Jordan

[Hank Scorpio]

Ditto, 1/4 fuel injection hose on the stock barbs.

http://www.pbase.com/image/15651676.jpg

[domox]

A Ford TPS sensor, home-made mounting works just fine.

B23FT fuel rail and pressure regulator

Aeroquip socketless 1/4" -4 fuel hose - fits beautifully on our barbed hose fittings and looks nicer

[bitjockey]

Jordan, you may want to update your part numbers.

Wells SU109 got me a closed element temp sensor... SU107 is what you want, an open cage element sensor. Also found a nice plug/harness for those sensors, its Motormite part #85100... Here's a pic of the booty I got today:

http://www.pbase.com/image/17758112.jpg

[bitjockey]

Here is my THERMFACTOR.INC file for the stock volvo coolant temp sensor:

http://robin.elit3.com/megasquirt/THERMFACTOR.INC

Recompile the code with that file and update the firmware. Wham, no GM coolant temp sensor needed.

:-D

[bitjockey]

I think I can call this project sucessful... :-D :-D

Been running on the stim for a whole day now, no hiccups at all.

Gonna burn it in for one more day then stick it in the car. Finished about 90% of the harness, boy this is taking a while.

http://www.pbase.com/image/17793838.jpg

http://www.pbase.com/image/17793841.jpg

http://www.pbase.com/image/17793842.jpg

[bryant]

I am considering using megasquirt on a b230ft project that I have planned, but I am concerned about how difficult to assemble it is and how long it is going to take to complete.

Can you offer some words of wisdom having brought your own project as far as you have?

thanks
Bill

B230ft into a '57 Duett???

[bitjockey]

If you are decent with a soldering iron, know how to work a voltmeter and are patient and methodical the assembly will go without a hitch.

Hell, the wiring is taking me almost as long to do as the ECU took to build. :freak:

Its a wonderful way to learn alot about EFI as well... I say go for it. I'll assemble and test the kit for you, if you want... now that I've done one the next few will go MUCH quicker.

[domox]

I have to agree with bitjockey - being patient and methodical will go a long way in having the project complete successfully.

If your car does not already have EFI, as in our 240 Turbos with K-Jet and your carb'ed Duett (does it have an engine right now?), then you will have to manufacture a great bit of harness, but it is well within the grasp of anyone who can strip wire ends and crimp/solder. I would easily say that the great majority of my time was spent on collecting the parts and making the harness - soldering up the actual unit took a couple of slow nites, plus a few more days running the unit 24/7 on the stimulator and then loaded down with 12V lights to simulate the injectors.

My greatest fear was after all that work (and after ripping out a semi-functional K-Jet :-P ) was that it wouldn't start, but because everything was checked and rechecked and then run on the stimulator, the unit started the car after only a few seconds of priming the fuel lines. Now I would have no trepidation in ordering up another unit and setting up another one since I know what is required now. This initial installation on my 240 Turbo only took me so long because I dragged my feet and had other things more pressing. I figure I have about four weekends of project time into it, and thats generous. Even if you only make up one piece of harness a night, say one injector run, it'll take you say an hour. It would take you four hours to make all four runs and you still have your weekends to do other things, like mount your IAT and TPS, and mount your MS. When it came time to do the cut-over from K-Jet to MS it took me more time to rip out the K-Jet than to hook up the MS.

The results are repeatable and verified by lots of people, including several Volvo people so I can definitely recommend it. Good luck and I hope you go with MegaSquirt!

Domingo

[poulson01]

What a pain in the ass! :rant:
I havn't touched my turbo headders in a week, my MS sensors are still sitting on my desk, right where I left them three weeks ago, I have no car anymore (turned in the plates to regester wifees new XC) so I'm driving someone elses car that I'm s'posed to be fixing. I just got finished putting head gaskets on a Subaru legacy that was overheated so bad it didn't run anymore. Today I fabbed a door handle for the sliding door on a POS Dodge van. Wednesday, I have to go up to Albany to pick up another POS van for the farm. I have a week to do another HG job on an Accord! I can't frigin win! My MS has been ready to go for a good 6 months! :rant: Being unemployed SUCKS!

[GTJordan]

Mike if you fly me there, I'll set it up for you ;)

Jordan

[Hank Scorpio]

I had to build mine in a hurry to get it ready for a up coming show at the time, from getting a box of parts to a running car in 2 weeks.

Not bad I think

[poulson01]

Mike if you fly me there, I'll set it up for you ;)

Jordan

C'mon! It's only a 6hr drive! :grrr:
Jump in that hoopdie and bring it! :rofl:
Both 242s' are off the road and I'm driving my wifes old car. I just robbed the MAF to fix someonelses car today so it's running like ****e! First thing I have to do is weld my garage up (disguising it to look like a greenhouse so I don't have to deal with the town). I started tilling the back yard last night (my neighbors are too scared to complain!). Maybe I'll get my ass in gear next week.

[GTJordan]

We are more than 6 hours away aren't we? **** man, if we were only 6 hours away, I would have come and set it up for you 5.95 months ago

I'm in the west coast ;)

Jordan

[poulson01]

Crap! I thought you were in Ontario or something. Where are you, near Cold lake? Anyway, I'm starting to see the light at the end of the tunnel. We had a wedding to attend in San Fran two weeks ago. Frigin KILLED me! :grrr:
I'm so behind and we have another market starting up Friday. :roll:
Oh well. Mo money!

PS. Got Wifees XC today! :badboy:

[dirtbike]

Hello Guys,
Nearly got all the parts for a MS installation.
Only problem is I don't have anything to tune it with yet!
What's the specs of the laptops you guys are using, I'd imagine that I could get away with 133/200 but I want to be able to make the most of the realtime displays within the software.
What sort of spec laptop do you guys think? 400/ 500Mhz????
Any input would be appreciated
Laters
Nick

[poulson01]

Mine work fine with the MS. I have a 486 DX 100 stinkpad and a Pentium 133 Hitachi.

[bitjockey]

Wanna sell one, Mike?

I need one. Can't waste a $2k thinkpad on EMS duties.

[poulson01]

You don't want mine. A half decent used or reman laptop might cost you $300 and you'd have something you could use. My stinkpad is a 486 dude. If that thing will work, anything will.

[bitjockey]

But see, I haven't even spent $200 on everything MS-related yet. I don't wanna double my budget for a ****ty laptop thats just gonna sit under my passengers seat until I need it. I want something HORRID :)

[GTJordan]

pentium 90 (I think) with 48megs of ram.

Runs without a glitch.

Jordan

[Hank Scorpio]

Robin, I bought a beater pos Win95 toshiba off ebay for like 200 bucks.

You'll use it ALOT :wink:

the tuning software works on windows 95 / 98. so if the machine can run either then get it. when i was looking for a laptop to tune with, i kept finding ones that would work/working condition but the battaries where dead. since you are buying one for tuning and nothing more, get one that works spec wise and an adapter to use the laptop in your car. most of the cheap laptops on ebay i suspect that the batteries are dead. BTW batteries are expensive...

oh mine is 300mhz pentium 2

-jesse
www.pbase.com/jaos

[Hank Scorpio]

the tuning software works on windows 95 / 98. so if the machine can run either then get it. when i was looking for a laptop to tune with, i kept finding ones that would work/working condition but the battaries where dead. since you are buying one for tuning and nothing more, get one that works spec wise and an adapter to use the laptop in your car. most of the cheap laptops on ebay i suspect that the batteries are dead. BTW batteries are expensive...

oh mine is 300mhz pentium 2

-jesse
www.pbase.com/jaos

Ya mine was dead too. I just use a power invertor and they supplied power source they provided with the laptop.

[bitjockey]

Sweet! Just bought a Thinkpad p150 with tons of upgrades and a 12" screen for $175 shipped with a NEW battery...

http://www.thecrown.ca/user/dan/380E/Thinkpad_380E_6.jpg

http://www.thecrown.ca/user/dan/380E/Thinkpad_380E_5.jpg

Should do nicely. :-D

[poulson01]

Now I'm jelous! I'm not even going to show you what mine looks like.
So Friday morning, I did a vaserpumper and timing belt on my brothers Jetta. Then the Sugarloaf market which I was 20min late for and that ended at 6:00PM. I was out in the rain 'till 9:00PM loading the box van. Yesterday, I was up at 5:00AM and over to the farm and on the road by 6:10AM. We sold flowers in the pouring rain and made it home at 4:30PM. I unloaded all the market stuff and got everything ready for todays Warwick market. We also had a weadding to supply. We ran out of delivery vehicles so they used wifees XC and made two trips. :barf: Meanwhile, there is a broken Volvo parked in front of my house on the side of the road since there is no more parking space in my driveway. I promised I'd have the AC fixed by monday. I'm goin' in boys!

[nohbudi]

o dear mesiah and all that is..... what the...


anyway this has got to be the coolest thing i have ever read about ever.... the best part is i wont have to do any of the assembly cause the electronics tech (mother) will do it. only thing i have to do is find a good late model head, and intake manifold. i have a TB that im porting out to 60mm all the way thru as apposed to the 54 it is now... and i have some experience with bosche EFI systems.

ok now for the soooper cool part no one has mentioned.... http://www.fiveomotorsport.com/Injector_Sets.asp mwahahahahah! any size any of you could ever want... and you have complete control! mwhahahahah!!!!!!

[poulson01]

So are my green tops 24lb or 30lb? This is about the fifth site I've seen that says both in the same sentance. :e-shrug:
Anyones Megaview come in yet?

[poulson01]

Got my megaview soldered up last night. Tested it this morning. Kick ass! I showed it to the guys at the nappa store while sourcing parts for the box van. They think it's rediculous that I'm installing it all in a 20 year old Volvo. :rofl:

[nohbudi]

i guess thats there problem... im gonna be doing it to a 21 year old car... and no one in my hick town is gonna know whats going on....

[Hank Scorpio]

Mike, I haven't been to the MS board in a while, whats Megaview?

[poulson01]

http://www.bgsoflex.com/mv/megaview.html

I gottaget some pics up! This thing is SWEET!! It's a VFD board with another 908 (MC68HC908GP32CP) processor controlling it. It comunicates with the MS through the serial port. There is a 6 pin pcb headder that you use to controll the display (via 4 buttons of some sort. The buttons could be anything. Remote key fob, joystick. Whatever!)

[quote:0646db6747]MegaView is an add-on accessory for the MegaSquirt Electronic Fuel Injection System, providing real-time display of all engine operating parameters, and allowing for the edit of any configuration variable in the MegaSquirt ECU. This dual-function device was designed to be mounted in an automotive dashboard to provide feedback on all critical engine parameters or housed in an enclosure for use as a portable tuning device.

Features:

MegaView utilizes a high-efficiency Vacuum Fluorescent Display (VFD) which is easy to read in any light conditions, making it perfect for an installed dashboard application. In addition, the wide-operating range of the VFD is perfect for low temperature operation.

MegaView offers two operation modes: Runtime which displays the current engine operating parameters in "ticker-tape" scroll format, and Configurator whcih allows the edit of any of the MegaSquit variables in real-time.

In Runtime Ticker-tape mode, the parameters displayed include current engine operation state (cranking, running, etc), enrichments, barometric pressure, engine MAP, coolant and intake air temperature, all computed enrichments, and injector pulsewidth. The automatic scroll mode can be frozen at any time in order to monitor any desired variable. In addition, any monitored parameter which is outside of normal operating conditions will "flash" on the display, alerting the driver of a possible adverse situation in real time.
The configurator mode will allow the user to adjust any of the configuration parameters. This is useful for field-tuning and variable tweaking. It is not designed to replace the PC Configurator for tuning, but allows for simple parameter modification as needed. [/quote:0646db6747]

[Hank Scorpio]

Whoa! Damn... I like that, I smell my next project coming!

[bitjockey]

Finished my TPS bracket tonight:

http://www.pbase.com/image/18632107.jpg

http://www.pbase.com/image/18632108.jpg

[Hank Scorpio]

See, told you you didn't need a diagram of mine. Not an exact science, just screw it in where it needs to be ;)

[Anonymous]

All us MS'ers are welcome to post any/all useful information you want.

The IAT sensor, was actually the same exact sensor. Thats what they gave me, I was iffy to see if it would work right, but it does so I guess thats good.
Doug

Doug,

Check the size of that IAT sensor. I have not bought them yet but I do know that Intake Air Temperature can change quickly in a turbo. It is important that the temperature sensor responds as quickly as the temperature changes else you will be in serious danger of leaning out. You will also run ritch whan you come off the boost and the temperature sensor and the IAT is still warm. The coolant temperature sensor is bulky with large thermal mass which means that it will respond slowly. That is ok for the coolant temperature but not for air. I am in throes of putting together my megasquirt. I will make my own IAT using a small thermistor from Digikey but first intend to log the rate of temperature change in the TB using a high speed thermocouple. Will post results.

[dirtbike]

I intend using the existing bosch temp senders as easytherm will allow you to map them aslong as you have 3 temperature ranges and values, I managed to get this from an indepth workshop manual that gives these resistance values at three given temperatures, so thats two less things to worry about.
I now have the rest of the components to complete the install (I think) including MS assembled and laptop.
I just hope that i'm able to modify the dizzy, coil & ign module I pulled from a non turbo b230 to work with a saab turbo diaphram(looks promising, then some of the other UK guy's on the board may be interested in MS) then the fun can begin and I can turn the boost up and get out of the 16.2's and cure the misfire which I think is ECU related.
PS doug thanks for offering a 240T dizzy, I may not need it if this one works properly but I'll give you a shout should I need it.
good luck and happy mapping.
Laters
Nick

[volvorsport]

Nick ,

im on the MS bandwagon , and i think ive got three customers for it now , so if you have info on volvo sensors , please post em !

im going to have to use the volvo ones since the CEM module in the 480 relys on some to give the digital computer its readout !

dave

[CNGBrick]

Temperature sensors are slow to respond so the ECM doesn't rely on them for direct fueling or timing calculations. You are not likely to put your engine in danger because of a "slow" intake air temp sensor but rather the ECM models the air temp based on the response time of the sensor and info from other sensors (typically engine speed, MAP sensor, engine coolant sensor).

Also, you do not want to share sensors between ECMs or electronic modules. The difficulty here is that the ground levels and sensor loading will be affected between units and can cause problems with the sensing circuits. What you need to do is double up on sensors if you want to stay with the same type.

Richard Thomas

[volvorsport]

i meant sensors for the digital display , the engine temp and oil temp are used which might pose a problem , if they dont then they arent , since i cant find direct info on it yet .

[poulson01]

Someone developed a program called easytherm that will allow you to recalibrate the MS controller to Bosch or whatever else. If you're not on the mailing list, you should subscribe. Some of these guys are dam brilliant! Good brain pickin' here! :???:

[canadiangt]

How does a 240t ignition work with MS? I will be installing within the next few weeks or so and am wondering if the black box ignition will work with the MS? I am thinking of getting an MSD 6AL. Will the Hall effect sensor fire the MSD or do you set it up through the black box?
Also, I was reading on the megasquirt turbo section not to us a rising rate pressure regulator with a ratio that is not 1:1 as you are controling the injector pulsewidth yourself and there is no reason to increase fuel pressure at another ratio. I can accomplish this with a B230F fuel pressure reg, correct?

[Hank Scorpio]

Whoa you may want to delete a few of those posts.

Im running a 240T dizzy right into an MSD 6al. Thats all you need to do.

You'll want the turbo reg, you do want an increase in fuel pressure.

Doug

[murray]

G'day all, :wave:

I have noticed that the majority of people here who have adabted megasquirt to there cars are driving 240's. So my question is: how many of you here have installed the ms system into a 740 turbo which already has efi :???: And if any of you have, how successful was it, was there that much of an improvement?

Thankyou in advance to all that reply :x:

Murray
(Australia)

[Hank Scorpio]

Murray, theres a huge improvement over stock to be found with Megasquirt if your performing modifications to your car. Robin has his up and running, and he hacked the stock pinout for the ECU and custom wired his into the stock wiring at the ECU. Really, a trick set up.

Doug

[volvo740tbi]

ummmm wat parts will i exactly need to install a mega squirt system in my 740? all this stuff is kinda confusing me but i think i got it down, iam just a newbie to this stuff.. :???:

[the poi]

What are you guys doing for ignition, stock EZK? Ive seen like three megasquirt-conencted ignition systems, any recommendations? I dont think ill use ultramegasquirt, the distributorless plugs will probably cost too much for me.

somewaht related note: Does the 16v head have the tach sensor in the flywheel or the dizzy? I didnt recall seeing a plug conencted to the dizzy when I pulled the head, but not entirely sure. Whats the easiest way to get a tach sensor for the MS on a previously LH 2.2 motor?

[bitjockey]

I am using the stock EZK (for now), and have a Crane Hi-6 with boost retard coming soon. I am using a -89 distributor, the LH 2.2 one with the hall sensor inside so I can trigger the aftermarket ignition.

RPM signal goes to the MS from the negative terminal on the coil... you don't need anything else.

I am not sure if the B234 uses a crank or dizzy sensor... did they have 2.4 or 2.2? Or both during different runs?

[canadiangt]

After 4 months of sitting and staring at my MS with dread, I took the time to assemble it. It was so simple that I am incredibly mad that I didn`t do it 4 months ago. I don`t have a stimulator, so I am rigging a wiring harnes to attach it to the injectors and a running engine jst to make sure all of my input and output circuits are assembled right. I had a v1 board that I had to do the flyback mod to, but luckily it was one of the v1 boards that was set up for turbocharging. If anyone in the edmonton area has a stim that I could borrow for a day though you could make another brickster very happy. I don`t know if I will be able to afford an MSD before my install, but from what I understand I can wire the MS into the negative side of the coil. Is anyone doing this and if so, did you have to do one of the mods that is reccomended on the MS site? Otherwise, I have the GM sensors that I scammed from my dads wrecked 89 olds, a ford truck TPS and Chrysler 27# injectors. I figure that barring any major catastrophies, I should be able to install the MS in about 2 days when I actually get the chance to do it. What is the difference between saturated and PWM mode?

[Hank Scorpio]

Ya, it took me exactly 2 weeks from a box of parts to a running car doing nothing but evening work on it.

Its SO simple.

[poulson01]

PWM mode is what you would use if you didn't feel like wiring in resistors for low Z injectors. 740t cars come with a nice resistor pack that is perfect for current limiting with MS. Saturation with resistors is the safest bet. There is an injector flyback board that incorporates current limiting but it is a few weeks away.

[canadiangt]

So running saturated would just entail placing the resistors in series with the injectors? I am going to run chrysler 27# until I can get my hands on some 35# turbocoupe injectors.

[CNGBrick]

You only need to use a resistor pack or PWM on low impedance (low Z) injectors. Normal injectors can be hooked up directly. You need to measure the resistance on your injectors to determine what type you have (sorry, I don't have the resistance value right now.)

Hope this helps.

RT

[poulson01]

I have a green top that measures 2.8 Ohms and a black that measures 16 Ohms.

[Andrew9578]

Hey All,
I've been reading all of you post for a while now, trying to figure it all out.
And i have to say, my confused.

This is what i would ilke to do.

I would like to instail a MS system on my stock 240 DL. It's a 1985 240 with a b230F bottom and a B23E top w/ K cam. I have a stock ignition system and fuel system. What would a i have to do to run MS on this car. Also, what would be the easiest way of doing this. My car is a Delay Drive, so it can't be off the road to long.

Any input would be great, Thanks.

Andrew

PS. I have the LH2.2 ECU w/o EZK ignition.

[Hank Scorpio]

Andrew, Im not really sure you'd need it, but what I would do is get in touch with Robin. He's been working on making MS intergrate with the stock wiring/senders. What he did then was to make his MS wiring harness plug right into the stock ECU harness. Thats what I would do.

Doug

[Andrew9578]

Thanks Doug

By the way...you better get that car done by Aug. 9 if your going to race Ben

Andrew

[Angus242]

Just thought I'd announce my intention to jump on the Megasquirt bandwagon soon. I've been putting some thought into it and doing some serious research, finding out as much as I can, and I'm really liking what I'm hearing about the system so far. :x:

I got so enthusiastic about the idea that I went out and bought a B230F manifold and fuel rail, and an assortment of other EFI bits, temp sensors etc. so I've got something to play with before I obtain an MS kit.

I'm involved with an Aussie group buy which will go ahead if they get enough numbers, so if that goes ahead I should have it in about 2 months from now.

I've been looking at what I need to do to make it work on a B23E, looks pretty simple really, and I already have a lot of the stuff that's required.

It looks like I'm going to need some B230FT injectors a bit further down the track, so I'll probably ask here when the time comes.

[murray]

G'day Angus242, :wave:

I am very very interested in this group by you have mentioned as I am also from Melbourne. If you could give me some details about price and who is involved, etc I would be very appreciative.
My e-mail is murray740@hotmail.com
Thanx mate.

Murray
(Australia)

[MikeHardy]

i've been thinking about IAT sensors and on the B230ET it has a IAT just post IC and the tube is specific for this. i've been thinking that this sensor would be useful for MS as it's a thin strip temp sensor rather then the bulky ones spec'd by MS so should respond faster.

part No for the sensor is bosch 0 261 220 001
http://www3.pbase.com/image/19571558/large.jpg
you can see the pipe here
http://www.pbase.com/image/19571559/large.jpg

[dirtbike]

I'm gonna try and use the existing temp sensors.
I have some resistance values for the stockers at different temperatures.
I'm also working on a way that us b230ET users can get ignition sorted, so far I have found that I needed a distributor from a 2 series carbed car, But because the 7 series engines don't have the teeth machined for the dizzy drive I needed a layshaft( :e-shrug: I think thats what it's called, or maybe it's a oil pump, fuel pump, dizzy drive shaft from the same car).
You also need a dizzy amplifier/diaphram from a turbo saab(900) to giveyou the ignition retard under boost.
I haven't tested this yet but as soon as I can confirm this I'll knock up a B230ET conversion guide.
I could do with a little help on the wiring though, I haven't checked but where do the two wires from each injector go to, one into the resistors on the inner wing the other to the ECU??? :e-shrug:
Any suggestions would be nice, should it matter which of the wires I power/ground on the temp senders or do you think it will work either way? :???:
Laters
Nick

[MikeHardy]

That would be auxiliary shaft

[Angus242]

According to one of my Haynes 240 manuals, LH3.1 cars have a TPS which is not only a switch, but a potentiometer type with a resistance of 0.25 - 0.98v at idle, and 4.0 - 4.8v at WOT. It even shows a cutaway diagram of one showing the resistor contacts etc. It looks like an ideal solution, given that it's a direct fit for a B230 throttle body.

Is there any reason why I can't use one of these for an MS install?

[945ti]

[quote:b214727509]According to one of my Haynes 240 manuals, LH3.1 cars have a TPS which is not only a switch, but a potentiometer type with a resistance of 0.25 - 0.98v at idle, and 4.0 - 4.8v at WOT. It even shows a cutaway diagram of one showing the resistor contacts etc. It looks like an ideal solution, given that it's a direct fit for a B230 throttle body.

Is there any reason why I can't use one of these for an MS install?[/quote:b214727509]
No, no reason, intake manifolds are teh same, it is just finding one in the yard that would be the problem.
It only came on 5 speed 240 cars after 90-91, not any other AFAIK.
If you wanted to order an new TPS, then yeah, that would make sense to order one that fits the B230 manifold.

[murray]

G'day all, :wave:
Robin, I was hoping you could help me out a little bit. Your are the only person I know who has fitted ms to a 740 and with great success, so I am told. I am having reservations about how the system reacts with the stock ignition and exactly how I set the system up. I have been doing ALOT of reading but until I get my unit (Aussie group buy-shouldn't be toooooo long I hope) there is only so far one can go. My biggest concern is the tuning side. Setting the VE tables, Req_Fuel, etc. If there is any advice, pic's or information you could give me I would appreciate it greatly. :x:

Murray
(Australia)

[Anonymous]

The preliminary field tests indicate that its going to be tedious and time consuming, I'll letcha know (as will robin i'm sure) more as the week progresses and I gain experience 8-)

[volvorsport]

Ok ,

has anybody used a wideband o2 sensor with this yet , i know there is diy board that you can make , im just wondering if anybody has configured the software to allow it to run it .

i also thought that i could just use a DVM to check wideband sensor values with a narrow band sensor fitted aswell , if i can wire it up like that i may end up doing that .

like robin and a few others ill be using mine with EZK ignition so i need to work out how to piggy back the megasquirt while not upsetting the ignition part , since i would like to be able to convert back if need be .

[Anonymous]

There is a DIY WB O2 sensor option in the constants screen. Just a click of the mouse.

[poulson01]

There is a DIY WB O2 sensor option in the constants screen. Just a click of the mouse.

I'm a dumass. That was me.

[volvorsport]

i thought the circuitry isnt there to warm the sensor up etc , so if it is , its just a click of the mouse , jeez i need something in front of me , its starting to get frustrating .

[ereuter]

FYI, here's info on my B20 MS install:
http://www.southroad.net/ms

Eric

[poulson01]

Check out DIY-EFI and DIY-WB. The DIY wide band O2 sensor computer is for use with existing FI systems.

[linuxman51]

ok, any 700 series guys use the stock wiring for the fuel injectors? if so, how'd you do it :) (run em all off bank 1? split the difference betweeen bank 1 and 2 on the controller, what?)

[bitjockey]

Run them all off INJ1 on the MS. On 2.4, its the big gray wire on the lower-left corner of the harness (can't remember the number). Thats nice cause it lets you use the stock ballasts w/o having to wire your own.

[dirtbike]

I'm just gonna put live to the large green wire on the resistors, and use the other set of injector cables to go to MS.
so of the pair of cable that come from the injectors I'll run 12v through the resitors and into one side of the injectors and ground the injectors using the other cable straight into inj1 and inj2 on MS.
I can't see why this won't work.
Laters
nick

[linuxman51]

Run them all off INJ1 on the MS. On 2.4, its the big gray wire on the lower-left corner of the harness (can't remember the number). Thats nice cause it lets you use the stock ballasts w/o having to wire your own.
hm. i gotta jump mine cause my injectors are hi imp. but i reckon i'll try that.

what'd you do for the fuel pump relay?

[Hank Scorpio]

I just used a SPST relay and used the factory wiring. All you need is the 12V and 12V to the pump. The Megasquirt provides the 12v switched and ground.

Doug

[linuxman51]

i was hoping to retain the factory fuel pump relay for the time being.. i'll play around with it and figure (*rig) something :)

[Hank Scorpio]

No offense but why? A SPST relay is like 5 bucks at radio shack, its THE most common relay you can get.

Theres no reason I guess why you couldn't use the stock one, just seems to be the hard way to go.

[linuxman51]

because i'm still using the stock ignition computer and i dunno if it has stuff that gets pissy (unless you think it'd be easier to straight up wire the crane and ditch both ecus, in which case i guess i can run off the hall in the distrib for both the ms and the crane altho the tach's gonna be hosed..)

aside from that, there's really no reason i wanted to keep the fuel pump relay.. damn, i had another question iz gonna ask but i can't think of it right now..
I'm just going to wire the injectors up straight, my harness is a warzone (pre 88, the oil's gotten it pretty bad :( ) i'll be back as questions arise, yall don't go to bed early the car WILL run tonight :)

[Hank Scorpio]

lol mine would have tonight too ... read my Euromotive thread.

Anyways, I think the easiest is just use the Dizzy and crane setups. If you have a slotted dizzy (I think all the rear mounts are, just some have bushings that dont let you) then your all set.

Doug

[Angus242]

I'm looking at running a set of 740 Turbo injectors on my MS B23E project (at 300cc/min they're a little large, but not by enough that they will give problems I hope) so I'll need a resistor pack. I could use the stock one or make up my own, I'd like to use the stock one if possible though.

So my question is: would it be possible for somebody here to take a pic of one of these resistor packs and post it here for me? I've never seen one before, and I don't know how many wires they have etc. I suppose a reasonable description would be almost as good.

[linuxman51]

f00000k yes... cranked up and idled on the wrong map with a mis calibrated tps (megatune kept crashing :e-shrug: )

off to clean up the wiring and tune this heeeeb 8-)

[the poi]

I'm looking at running a set of 740 Turbo injectors on my MS B23E project (at 300cc/min they're a little large, but not by enough that they will give problems I hope) so I'll need a resistor pack. I could use the stock one or make up my own, I'd like to use the stock one if possible though.

So my question is: would it be possible for somebody here to take a pic of one of these resistor packs and post it here for me? I've never seen one before, and I don't know how many wires they have etc. I suppose a reasonable description would be almost as good.its a white "cage", 2.5"x 1.5", with four cylinders in the four corners of the box. theres a wire going to each cylinder, and one comin gout the middle. over by the battery, mounted on the fender wall



Quesiton for the gallery: Has anyone used a DIY ignition setup yet, like megaspark, etc? What options do I have for a LH2.2 motor? Is a big name brand ignition system a much more straightforward approach then trying to get somethign DIY to work?

[Angus242]

Cool, thanks for the description, now I can look at getting hold of one.

[linuxman51]

Some quick questions for the hardcore megasquirters :)

How does one change the value for the rev limiter?
annnd...
Whats with the ego switch point, and does it exit closed loop and enter open loop for sure at 70% throttle? We're having some bouncing with the o2 :???:

[GTJordan]

As long as it runs smooth, don't worry about what the 02 sensor says....

Have you driven it yet?

What are you doing with ignition?

Jordan

[linuxman51]

ignition signal sucks dick, anything below 1300 rpm and it gets readings that claim "4000" and anything above about 4500rpms and it occasionally sees "9000 rpms" so i think my hall sensor is farked. also the modification for running directly off the hall sensor did NOT work. I tried both 2.2 and 1.0

[CEHepp]

ignition signal sucks dick, anything below 1300 rpm and it gets readings that claim "4000" and anything above about 4500rpms and it occasionally sees "9000 rpms" so i think my hall sensor is farked. also the modification for running directly off the hall sensor did NOT work. I tried both 2.2 and 1.0


Are you using the hall signal to get an RPM reading???? If you are, are there kits for this? I need one for an electric car.

[the poi]

another attempt: what is the easiest way to get an ignition system setup? Is there no way to avoid having to build my own crank position sensor?

[Hank Scorpio]

Hey guys, having issues with mine. How do I make SURE its not running in PWM and running instead in Saturated. I can't seem to find the problem.

Also, I have the MS grounded to the motor, but I just (doh) realized that I dont have the motor grounded any more.

Heres the problem Im having, right at 2k rpm, it bucks like mad, can't figure out why. Any ideas? Its not fuel map related

Doug

[GTJordan]

Are you sure its not fuel map related? you aren't hitting a lean spot, or your not really rich? Bucking usually means lean though....

Also make sure you are not getting a tach signal mess up right there. I get at 900rpm it will skip to 5400RPM. All the time, even with the MSD....

Jordan

[MikeHardy]

should read here more often this is the pack from a 760 with 357 injectors http://www.pbase.com/image/18626864/large.jpg

[Anonymous]

Another "Me Too"

Got mine running on MS last weekend. It's a B21F in an '80 244, only mods are a 2.5" exhaust (not my choice) and a K cam installed without additional advance.

Due to some really rotten wiring, I completely redid my engine harness and my distributor pickup wires. The dizzy wires on this engine run underneath the alternator and since I've had troubles with EMF interference before, I bought some 2 conductor shielded wire. Grounded the shield at the dizzy and at the "little black box", and routed the cable normally (under the front cover).

The MS wiring was done with 24 ga wire mostly, with power for the injectors and to the MS carried by 12 ga. Used the closed element air temp sender 'cause it's just an NA. Used an Isuzu I-mark TPS, which turns the right direction and uses a D shaft, and it also has a closed throttle switch (which I'm not using). I just cut down the shaft and drilled/tapped the stock mounting plate, but the TPS is REALLY TIGHT against the throttle body body & mounting stud. Oh well... Also, the B21F doesn't have a ported thermal vacuum valve in the head, and the thermal time switch is the wrong thread, so I had to mount the coolant temperature sender in the block, right by the oil filter. It heats up there pretty quickly - I get temperatures above 140 F within 60 seconds or so on a 65 degree morning, so that might be affecting my warm-up a bit. It never gets above 190 though, so I think it's not getting any influence from the exhaust manifold...

I also used a 1 conductor shielded wire for the coil pickup, from the MS - grounded the shield at the MS connector but so far haven't grounded the shield at the coil. Once or twice, I ran into a no-spark problem and it turns out that an errant strand of wire on the tach signal cable was coming in contact with the chrome finish on the MS connector. Trimmed the wires and cleaned them up a bit, and all is well.

Dale & I built the MS (ver. 1) with most of the latest mods: The "John" zener (jumpered to bypass, as per the instructions), the "Wing" diode, the "Ed" cap, and the Flyback mod. We also bought the optional caps and resistors listed on B&G's MS page, but we didn't need them for my car - I have absolutely NO problems with the stock ignition. My tach signal is DEAD stable, without any spiking or fake RPM readings. Don't know if it's the shielded dizzy wires (I think it is) or the shielded coil wire, or if I'm just lucky, but since that was my one big worry about MS, it's a huge relief to know it works okay!

(BTW - I've run into the alternator EMF interference and some tach signal goofiness when I installed an electronic ignition onto my B21A - I just moved the wires a little and problem was solved. This is why I think many have had problems with their tach signal on Bosch systems, but I know many other cars - B21FTs included - run their dizzy wires nowhere near the alternator.)

I'm using the B23F's 17 #/hr injectors at the moment, and I'm railing them by 5,000 RPM. I was well above 85% even when tuning to stoiciometric, but I wanted to continue tuning to get more experience before changing to the 29 #/hr #357 injectors.

Special thanks to John, Wing, & Ed for finding the problems, and to Bruce and Al for developing and troubleshooting this computer long before I ever installed it. Thanks to Dale for helping me solder the bad boy together. Thanks to Jordan & Doug for inspiring me to FINALLY get it installed, after a year & a half of having it sitting around. I know there were plenty more who got it running before me, but it was you two who made me want to get off my ass.

Next stop, Peak & Hold, and after that, Dale's car!

[CNGBrick]

Another "Me Too"

I also used a 1 conductor shielded wire for the coil pickup, from the MS - grounded the shield at the MS connector but so far haven't grounded the shield at the coil.

Good stuff Matt! Don't ground the shield at the coil end though -- you'll get a better signal with the shield the way you did it.

RT

[Anonymous]

Merci, Richard. I'll trim off the pigtail I left on there and leave it be.

[Angus242]

Thanks for the pic of the resistor pack, I've got one coming from a board member soon, hopefully that will get my setup working.

Great to hear about the B21F ignition working! I'm going to convert my B23E to MS, and it has the same ignition system. I'm going to definitely install a shielded tach wire, the dist. to ECU wires I'll leave initially, but if I have problems I'll sheild them too.

I'll need to figure out where to get some sheilded wire.

[Anonymous]

Just look in your favourite yellow-type pages under "electronic equipment & supplies, wholesale". You should be able to find someone who'll sell you 5 feet of shielded wire. We've been getting our stuff from a place called B&E Electronic Supply, and they've been our hookup for all the little patch components, too. I believe he said this was guitar wire, come to think of it... we'd asked for something that can take some heat and some oil exposure, and this is what he came up with. We'll see how long it lasts.

[Anonymous]

Okay... So a note to all y'all:

If you're not sure of your engine, don't think that your MS will fix it. I think I broke a rod cap last night while tuning it. The engine tightened up approaching redline and lost a bunch of power, and I had no oil pressure at idle until I revved it above 1800 RPM. No noise at high vacuum, but heavy clonking when the throttle was opened. Good thing I have my recently-overhauled B23FT clone on a stand in my garage, huh? My poor wife's head is going to explode - that engine was for her!

However, the good news is that the #357 injectors aren't that difficult to tune without the resistor pack. I was using 1.0 ms opening time, 0.1 ms/volt correction, 1.3 ms full current time, and 55% current limiting in PWM mode. Ran fine at all RPMs and started as easily as it did in saturated mode. If anyone's using four low Z injectors, give those numbers a try.

My initial numbers were 1.0 ms and 50%, but it wouldn't start until I bumped it to 1.1 and 60%. Idled fine and cruised okay, but it wouldn't make power so I bumped it again to 1.2 and 60%. That cured the power problem so I dropped the settings to 1.2 and 55%, which still worked fine. 1.2 and 50% didn't work, though. Might have to bump the current limiting or the full current time a little higher in the winter, though.

There have been reports of overheating flyback circuits but that's mostly from guys running either four 1.2 ohm throttle body injectors (my #357s are 3.2 ohm) and/or running the current limiting higher than 70%. Keeping the numbers down to 55 or 60% should be okay, I hope.

[Anonymous]

F/G to mention - I was running a datalog when it kaboomed, and the O2 voltage was hovering in the .85 volt range, so the A/F ratio was happy. I'm confident that the MS had nothing to do with the failure, aside from letting me run more RPM than I'd ever run before in that engine.

Matt

[linuxman51]

progress report on my setup
Initial conclusions: I'm an idiot.

So robin noticed that my o2 would drop to zero at idle, and then really wouldnt work with the turbo timer unhooked (the ground). Its one of those things I haven't been spending a lot of time thinking about in lieu of other bigger problems. Walking to class today I realized why it was doing that... I never bothered to ground the damn thing (Aside fom the turbo timer, which really isnt a ground either)
Well damnit.

Other things of concern but not dire problems, coolant temp sensor is locked at 170 (i got the wrong wire from the ecu harness, just havent sat down to get the right one).

So at any rate, i'll be gator-cliping my o2 to ground for the triumphant ride back to school, and perhaps tuning a bit on the way, we'll see how that goes.
then the wideband goes on and the real fun begins :lol:

And for all you guys looking to F+T with the stock garrett, this map's gonna be for you :)

[own6volvos]

yay :wave:

[Hank Scorpio]

Hey guys heres what I got for a map:
20: 14 21 28 29 38 37 49 53
50: 24 34 45 56 54 50 47 55
75: 25 34 44 50 54 57 53 55
100: 35 32 52 51 57 56 57 64
125: 33 36 53 66 76 65 61 72
150: 33 36 53 66 76 65 61 72
175: 42 48 60 77 93 94 83 96
250: 43 48 56 78 77 84 87 96

800-1200-2200-3200-4200-5200-6200-7200

6.3 required fuel iirc

Its got some lean spots, but its close :D

[the poi]

Hey guys heres what I got for a map:
20: 14 21 28 29 38 37 49 53
50: 24 34 45 56 54 50 47 55
75: 25 34 44 50 54 57 53 55
100: 35 32 52 51 57 56 57 64
125: 33 36 53 66 76 65 61 72
150: 33 36 53 66 76 65 61 72
175: 42 48 60 77 93 94 83 96
250: 43 48 56 78 77 84 87 96

800-1200-2200-3200-4200-5200-6200-7200

6.3 required fuel iirc

Its got some lean spots, but its close :Dnow all i need is a b21ft motor and a holset turbo and ill have the perfect fuel map! :-)

by the way, on an lh 2.2 motor, what options do I have for an ignition system? the tach signal is produced by a hall effect sensor in the distro right?

[linuxman51]

fuggit. I've got ve values almost in the 200's and I can't get the car to go rich, i'm putting the resistors back in tomorrow. this thing in neutral at wot runs so lean it won't clear 1100 rpms, poping and farting and cussing the whole time.

[Hank Scorpio]

Are you sure its not mega rich?

[Anonymous]

Linux - try playing with your full current time and current limit. I found that it doesn't like starting at 55%, but 60% was okay. With your injectors, your results may vary, but it's pretty clear that if you're at 200% VE, you've either run out of fuel pump or your injectors aren't opening. What works at idle might not work at WOT, WRT peak-and-hold settings. What I started with would let it idle, but as soon as I tried to rev it she'd go totally lean until I upped the full current time. See my post a few days ago for my tuning path.

Doug - YGM. I wanna talk about your map.

[linuxman51]

Are you sure its not mega rich?
yeah, its not blowing any kinda odd smoke out the back, and it pops thro the intake as well as the exhaust (i think i mighta blown my resonator up too :e-shrug: )

the idea of eliminating the pwm stuff greatly fascinates me, the hi imp injectors I was using earlier worked without a hitch.

The thought had also crossed my mind that perhaps the fuel pump was taking a dive on me, i'm gonna try and get a fp gauge up here later on today to check that

[Boris740]

[quote:132d9de48c="doug242ti"]Are you sure its not mega rich?
yeah, its not blowing any kinda odd smoke out the back, and it pops thro the intake as well as the exhaust (i think i mighta blown my resonator up too :e-shrug: )

the idea of eliminating the pwm stuff greatly fascinates me, the hi imp injectors I was using earlier worked without a hitch.
[/quote:132d9de48c]

High impedance injectors are somewhat slower to open. This can prevent them from giving you a good idle. PWM gives you better control but watch out for overheating the Q1.

[linuxman51]

I got it figured out. Threw in the resistors, disabled pwm mode, and had to richen the doghit out of it. what would be a good injector opening time, and how does one go about tuning accel enrichment and such. the wb is helpin a lot but i think i've got some other things mis configured

[the poi]

edit:// nevermind, re-read - resistors mean no need for pwm, makes sense really...

I saw the easytherm map for the volvo water temp sensor floating around, but I cant find it, anyone have it handy? And it seems the genreal consesnus for IAT sensors is the recommended GM one from the MS main faq, right?

[linuxman51]

yea, all you need are 3 ref values to gen a therm map tho, you should be able to get those out of a haynes book or the dealer or something (i'll try and find mine, but i think its on another computer)

[linuxman51]

cracked the hall sensor problem :D

tomorrow after i get things situated with the K cam, i'm going to go ahead and load the megasquirt n spark code, and then move along with programmable spark controll as well as fuel control (two 8x8 maps, one for ignition, the other for fuel). As the hardest part was getting the MS to see the hall sensor signal, I dont forsee too many problems moving right along to full spark control. 8-)

[the poi]

cracked the hall sensor problem :D
what'd you have to do?

[linuxman51]

massage it, coax it, wisper sweet nothings in its ear...

oh the HALL sensor, sorry i thought you were talking about..... nevermind.

jumped D5 (the wing diode i think)
jumped D8
retained the 390 resistor in R10
then you need a 1k pullup resistor tied to the tach input for megasquirt, What I did there was wire it from the power lead on the ms harness to the lead for the tach.

In order to drive the hall sensor (say if you wanted to clobber ezk or something crazy like that) you'll need a strict +5 to the positive lead on the harness (red), someone else on here (might have been you) suggested that it would be good to use one of the leads off the board for that.

[linuxman51]

I can feel a strange sensation creeping up in me... uh oh uh oh is SPARK TIME!! :) bouta flash the controller, setup a basic spark advance table (to give me around 12 degrees of timing across the board, perhaps 8 up on the high end of things), I think i'm the first volvo thats going to use this, we'll see how it works..

[linuxman51]

flashed the rom, set the entire advance table to 12 degrees (for safety's sake while i tune the ve table) got everything wired up and... no spark. goddamnit.

The only thing i can think of is i'm using the wrong igntition module (0-227-100-124 as opposed to a 139 or so) but i've checked the pinouts and no dice. I'm waiting on a reply from the spark n squirt group as to what to look for in the form of output from the controller, so i'll keep everyone posted :)

[linuxman51]

hm I might have a solution to my problem, digital circuits style, but i'll keep it to myself for the time being in case it doesnt work. If it does tho, it would make me one baaaad MF

[linuxman51]

got it. I've got spark and fuel running from megasquirt (just one controller) exclusively. you may touch me :-D :-D :-D

I think i'm the only person with a volvo running the stuff... feel free to correct me if i'm wrong. now on to the reason the car won't start.. (didnt with lh either, i think i fux0red my plugs)

I have absolutely NO problems with the stock ignition. My tach signal is DEAD stable, without any spiking or fake RPM readings. Don't know if it's the shielded dizzy wires (I think it is) or the shielded coil wire, or if I'm just lucky, but since that was my one big worry about MS, it's a huge relief to know it works okay!



Matt,

I'm looking to convert to MS when I get to put my B21FT into my GT... Is there any reason that this solution wouldn't work for me? it'll be a huge releif if I don't have to buy and MSD right away.

-zac

[linuxman51]

aand after discovering an intermitant ground in my ignition circuit and putting a fresh set of uber ****ty plugs in the car (acdelco) it cranks and runs, albeit with what acts like a dead skip.

now if i only had a timing light to get the thing setup like its supposed to be...
8-)

[245gti]

[quote:67ead7a124]Matt,

I'm looking to convert to MS when I get to put my B21FT into my GT... Is there any reason that this solution wouldn't work for me? it'll be a huge releif if I don't have to buy and MSD right away.[/quote:67ead7a124]

I'll answer for Matt.... We just did the conversion on my B21FT and it started first crank. I ran a shielded wire from my tach to the MS unit and never experienced any of the difficulties that others have....

[linuxman51]

[quote:afbb3c4250]Matt,

I'm looking to convert to MS when I get to put my B21FT into my GT... Is there any reason that this solution wouldn't work for me? it'll be a huge releif if I don't have to buy and MSD right away.

I'll answer for Matt.... We just did the conversion on my B21FT and it started first crank. I ran a shielded wire from my tach to the MS unit and never experienced any of the difficulties that others have....[/quote:afbb3c4250]

perhaps but consider that on the later more computerized cars, the ignition box changes timing and such, and that was very noticeable on the megasquirt, at above idle rpms it didnt seem to make as noticeable a difference, but robin, sam, I, greyson, and other people who looked at the setup, watched it idle, all saw what it was doing, and no matter what I did I couldn't get the idle to stay put running off the coil. since I've gone to the hall sensor, its been rock solid with the same wiring, and its not like its a difficult thing to do. You get a clean unmodified signal straight to the computer, and everything's happy :)

[linuxman51]

[quote:97d4603467]Matt,

I'm looking to convert to MS when I get to put my B21FT into my GT... Is there any reason that this solution wouldn't work for me? it'll be a huge releif if I don't have to buy and MSD right away.

I'll answer for Matt.... We just did the conversion on my B21FT and it started first crank. I ran a shielded wire from my tach to the MS unit and never experienced any of the difficulties that others have....[/quote:97d4603467]

Mine did too... wasn't that just the best feeling in the world? :-D

[Hank Scorpio]

I think were like 6/6 starts on first try.

Mine didn't idle well, but it did start first try!

[GTJordan]

Mine didn't start my first two times trying!!

First time, it was cuz I hooked the ACC up to a fuse which shut off during cranking...

Second time... this is retarded, I forgot the rotor inside the distributor... Oi i'm an idiot

Jordan

[Hank Scorpio]

ROFL those don't count!

[Anonymous]

Matt,

I'm looking to convert to MS when I get to put my B21FT into my GT... Is there any reason that this solution wouldn't work for me? it'll be a huge releif if I don't have to buy and MSD right away.

-zac

Zac, if your wiring is in good shape and you do what I did, you might have the same results. A definate Maybe! I can't say for sure, because there are people who say they've tried EVERYTHING and still couldn't get it to run... Jordan and his '79 GT, for example. However, Jordan's GT had a B21FT grafted in and my car was stock with recently redone wiring. Dale's '85 Turbo worked great (for about an hour) with just the shielded tach signal - everything else stock.

Yeah, I'm doing the same as Jordon did... B21FT swap into a 79GT. I think I'll try your way and buy the MSD if I need too. Basically, I'm anxious to get this thing on the road, and I'd like to get it rolling before I put many more thousands into it.

[murray]

G'day all, :wave:

Linuxman51, what is the ignition code you speak of?? Where can I get this code??
Thanks in advance for your reply! :x:
Regards,
Murray

[linuxman51]

megasquirt'n spark. a few posts down you can find out more of the nitty gritty about it (its not bad), its such a new project, the documentation on it is sparse to say the least, however even still it didnt take me too long to track down most of the answers and the ones i couldnt get, i got help with from the board. You'll need to subscribe to the megasquirt'n spark yahoo group to get at all the schematics and the current code source.

[the poi]

hey bitjockey, can you post the pin info for the stock wiring harness on the 700 series?

[canadiangt]

What is being done for Idle control? Are you guys using the stock idle air motor or nothing at all? I am installing on a B21FT with a B230F intake conversion. Also, My tach signal is dead claen hooked into the - side of the coil. All of my external and power wiring is done. I am running MS in my car not controlling fuel and all I have to do is drop in the other intake and hook up the fuel. Should be going shortly now. I think I may hold the record for slowest MS install ever.

[Hank Scorpio]

B230 TB using the "screw" on the side for idle. No idle motor+K15= idles that scare the rice boys

(never had any problems with it stalling either).

[CEHepp]

B230 TB using the "screw" on the side for idle. No idle motor+K15= idles that scare the rice boys

(never had any problems with it stalling either).

lol...what is that? like 1200RPM??

[nohbudi]

no like... 200rpm, then 500, then 300, then like 150, and back to 500...

[linuxman51]

I'm using the idle screw as well, however i think i'm going to drill out the hole a little to allow for more adjsutability, at the max setting i'm still only thumping around 600 rpms, and i wanna be able to sneak up on people...

[dirtbike]

Hello guys,
I've got some final double checking but I should be firing up the first MS'd volvo in the UK(i think) tonight, but I've got a few MS questions before I turn the key.
I could do with a little advice regarding low impedance injectors, at the moment I'm gonna use the stock injectors and use the brown tops later.
I'm using the resistor pack and I know that some people have mentioned running in a different mode if you use the resistor pack can anyone explain this???
Is megatweak designed to smooth out fuel curves, ie can I use the data logging feature and some pretty rough settings, go for a small drive use Megatweak to smooth out the fuel curve??? then keep doing it until it 's somewhere close. I plan on getting it setup on a rolling road over the next week so I'll be able to get it fully mapped there using the guys W/B O2.
At what point will the o2 correction switch off I heard that it's at 70% throttle if thats the case will MS continually remap the fuel to 14.7 stocih until you open the throttle to more than 70%?
When I use easytherm I need to enter bootloader mode, so I short the holes or the resistor (R6 i believe) but I presume that I need to keep it shorted during the whole procedure can anyone confirm this?
If anyone has some base setups it'd be really useful for getting it going, also if anyone has some suggestions that I should do or check before cranking that'd be useful.
Regards
Nick
Ps Wish me luck cause I'm nervous as hell!

[linuxman51]

use the resistors. The megasquirt manual tells you what to do (its been over a week since i looked at mine, so i'm shooting from the hip) I think you set pwm current limit mode to 100 and threshold time to 25.4 and thats it, you're done with that (its so easy :) )

I prefer to keep the 02 off for tuning, it wrecked havoc on us when we were feeling things out, set the EGO activation rpm to like 9000, and zero out the step and the limit (after you get your map hacked out pretty good turn it back on for daily driving to help with fuel econ).

Its kinda an involved process, you'll hafta feel it out as you go, a co-pilot that understands very well whats going on is pretty much a requirement for this stuff (altho on a dyno you dont have to watch where you're going, so that helps). wide band and a tank of gas should get you very well situated, read the manual. twice. maybe three times (well the tuning parts)

and good luck and have fun :wave:

oh yea, take a fire extinguisher with you

[dirtbike]

Ok guys, not the best news, it isn't running yet!
After double and treble checking all wiring is going to the right places I only had about 10 mins to check everything.
I had a lot to check as I also have a new ignition setup on the car as I didn't want to use the motronic system, When I looked at the wiring I noticed that I had the fuel pump hooked up wrong, didn't have time to re-do this so it's first on the list for tomorrow, but i managed to get the tps reading correctly and get an igniton signal to MS, also checked
Map sensor buy blowing and sucking on it and the manifold temp is giving a reading, it isn't correct as I haven't done the easy therm part yet but the unit appears to be working as it should.
So the potential problems I can see is the actual injector wiring, I have consulted the manual but would like a second opinion.
I have currently got an ignition switch operated live going to the resistors, and out the other side of the resistors I have got one wire going to each injector and out the other side of the injector I have the wires going to MS, can anyone see any reasons why this wouldn't work.
I'm a little dissapointed that I ran out of time before getting it to run, but I am really please that my first big wiring project turned out to be successful.
Once I have the fuel sorted I am going to consider using the MSnS code as I have the ignition module that is recommecnded so i can't see any obvious probs that could arise.
Any thoughts on the injector wiring will be greatly appreciated.
Regards
Nick

[Hank Scorpio]

Hey Nick, sounds dumb but make sure your MS isn't turning off durning cranking. Jordan did this, sometimes when your in a fevor of wiring its easy to do things like that.

I've found long as its powered, its pretty hard to not get the car to start with MS.

[dirtbike]

Hey Doug, I have checked that the squirt is powered even through the cranking period on the ignition switch, so that should be ok.

I've posted on the MS board but have had no replies as of yet so i thought I'd try my fellow brickster's.
I just want to check the the way I have the injectors hooked up.
Can some one confirm that I have wired up my injectors correctly.
I have a 12V feed into the resistor pack(stock volvo ones), out of the resistors I go into one side of the injector and out the other side of the injector I have the MS signal(Which I assume is ground)?

................................... ----- Inj 1 ----¬
12v --------- Resistor ----- Inj 2 --------- MS bank 1
......................Pack..... ----- Inj 3 ----¬
................................... ----- Inj 4 --------- MS bank 2
Also I should use 100% and 25.4Ms if I'm using Low Z with resistors right.
I don't want to remove/disturb the injectors by taking them off the
engine, however I have my brown tops lying in a box. If I connect
one of these to one of the Harnesses injector plugs can I expect
to hear it clicking when I crank the engine similar to a
relay/solenoid, i know that this will not 100% confirm that fuel is
squirting as there will be no fuel rail attached to it but it would confirm that the signal from MS is controlling the Injector.
I currently have a lot of pressure on me as i don't want to make the MS conversion stats change from 6/6 first time runners to 6/7. :oops:
Many thanks in advance
Nick

[Hank Scorpio]

Hey bud, the wiring looks right. I can't remeber what my PWM settings are, I believe I just left them alone.

You'll get it figured out.

[Angus242]

This is getting easier and easier! I was worried about how I was going to make the system work with a resistor pack and B230FT injectors, but it's all so simple.

The harest part for the immediate time being is going to be fabricating an intake duct to go from my custom airbox to the B230 manifold lol, but I'm sure I'll work out a solution there.

[dirtbike]

I am pleased to inform you that the you can update the first time runners stats to 7/7. Thanks for the help and advice you guys have given me.
I managed to find a dead relay that was stopping my injectors from firing but it now works fine. I have used Jesse's settings from page 1 of this thread but it has resulted in a very lumpy idle but again I only had about 10mins tuning time so I hope to get it smoothed out tommorrow.
but I am very pleased that it all works including my 240 auxillary shaft and dizzy and ignition module.
I have got to have a go at using easy therm tomorrow for the stock temp senders, I'll let you know how I get on with these as I'm sure it'd be easier to use the stockers if possible.
Is anyone else willing to donate they're VE settings, constants & enrichments for testing purposes?
Laters
Nick

[linuxman51]

you dont want mine :freak: I fixed some wiring issues (from pwm mode to saturated) and the car is beyond rich now, so i won't pass that set on to anyone til i get some more time logged on it. use the stock o2 and go bomb around in it (with sane boost levels and such, like 5 psi), follow the tuning proceedure outlined in the book, it'll get you going faster than any of our maps

[Anonymous]

The Peak and Hold function DOES work - it just takes a few minutes fiddling with it to get the injectors to stay open, and then you can rest assured that you're getting the most out of them. I've set up two sets of injectors using Peak & Hold, and they both used pretty much the same settings - 1.3 ms full current time and 60% PWM - but that would likely depend on your car and the way you've wired it. I was pretty much forced to do this because I didn't have the resistor pack, but I'm glad I did it.

If you set the full current time too low, the injectors just won't open, or they won't open much at all. If you set the PWM too low, the injectors might let you run well enough at idle but it'll stumble and run lean once you get moving. Adding PWM slowly will smooth the whole thing out, and so long as you're using the minimum amount of current needed to hold the injectors open for 10 or 15 ms, that's fine.

You can use the resistors if you want, all I'm saying is that you aren't forced to hold off on installing MS until you find a set. Admittedly, I partially tuned my first car on some smaller high impedance injectors so I got an idea what it was looking for, and then switched to low impedance injectors to get enough fuel to run it.

[Anonymous]

On another topic - for anyone installing MS in the future, or if you're having trouble with inconsistant rich/lean settings, consider where you're mounting your IAT sensor. I've got the IAT sensor about where most people have it, and I find that when I start the engine from warm, it runs very lean (like MS thinks the intake air is 120 deg. F when it's really 60 deg.)

Unlike the GMs that use this same sensor, they have an end-mounted throttle body with a log-style intake manifold. We're using a center-mounted throttle body with runners that come off both sides. If the IAT sensor is opposite the throttle body, it misses 90% of the air entering the intake most of the time (the air tries to take the shortest path to the intake runners at light throttle). It can't get a good enough reading, so MS is confused by inaccurate IAT values.

At least, that's what I think... My JY-sourced IAT sensor COULDN'T be at fault, right? :oops:

I'm gonna mount the IAT sensor in the IC-to-TB pipe and see if that fixes the problem. More consistent IAT readings should give me better datalogs, which should give me better Megatweek-derived VE tables, which should just make the engine run that much better. I'm just not getting the fuel economy or the driveability that I think I should be getting...

[Boris740]

On another topic - for anyone installing MS in the future, or if you're having trouble with inconsistant rich/lean settings....

At least, that's what I think... My JY-sourced IAT sensor COULDN'T be at fault, right? :oops:




Matt,

I am working on making my own IAT sensor. My theory is that the thermal mass of existing available sensors is to large. When you hit high boost the intake temperature rises more quickly than IAT can track it. There is a lag. I was thinking of using a very small thermocouple securely mounted to measure the airflow. Digikey catalog is full of them and Megasquirt can learn the temperature curve. Having said that I would also like to add that this will not happen tomorrow. At the moment I am very busy so if anyone else would like to test this theory I would like to hear about it.

[Anonymous]

So are you having trouble with the IAT sensor in your own car?

I'm not really worried about the IAT sensor "keeping up with boost", 'cause it would be trying to lean it out slightly and though theoretically you set the VE table to be rich enough, having the IAT sensor lean it out a little isn't my idea of a good time. The main concern is that during low speed operation (or heat soak) the temperature is inconsistent by sometimes 30 or 40 degrees due to lack of airflow in the accepted location.

Besides, the speed that the intercooler absorbs and releases heat from the boosted air should slow down the response requirement of the sensor...

[Angus242]

Is this heatsoak issue a problem for NA or only turbo? I'm doing an NA Megasquirt installation and haven't decided exactly where I'm going to put my IAT sensor yet.

Many domestic Australian GM cars use the exact same sensor most of us are using, with it mounted in the back of the airbox. I could position it so that it's in the airflow path pretty easily (I'll be using a custom airbox) but would heat soak from the radiator into the airbox be a problem?

Seeing as my car is NA should I just put it in the manifold instead?

[GTJordan]

Angus, if that location is good enough for the factory, its good enough for you! ;)

But seriously, the NA's arn't as sensitive about the incoming air temp, so you'll be fine.

Jordan

[linuxman51]

thats interesting, mine seems to work fine in its current posistion, but this could be more due to the fact that i havent had a whole lot of time to filddle with anything but the fuel map (and every time i start to make any kinda progress there, either something changes or i go and mess around with something else and the process starts over). It might get heat soaked, in which case it could be time for a phenolic spacer :)

[dirtbike]

Started to play with the VE tables quite a bit, but was struggling get the car to run smooth so I changed the number of iniections per rev from 1 to 4 and the car suddenly became the smoothest volvo I've ever heard.
I'm essentially running jesse's settings from page 1 with 12.6 REQ FUEL, 29Lbs injectors and 4 squirts per revolution and it now idles smooth and has good throttle response. Gonna have a go at tuning underload tommorrow but I was curious to know how many how many squirts you guys are running???
Regards
Nick

[Hank Scorpio]

1 here... I'll have to try it.

I'm up at 125%VE for alot of my map now (yes, around 10:1AFR but only 9psi of boost!)

somethings going on

[Anonymous]

When I tossed in the Lucas injectors, I stupidly left the engine on Simultaneous Fire, giving 2 injections per cycle. My reqfuel was in the 3.8 ms range, and it was trying to idle at 1.1 ms and about 3 or 4% VE. In fact, I couldn't get it lean enough even at 1% VE... As soon as I went to Alternate Fire, my reqfuel went back up to 7.6 and idle was around 1.8 ms, so all went well.

The trouble is based around the 1.0 ms injector opening time - it's pretty tough to know exactly how long it takes for the injector to open, and there's a warning window that pops up if you try to take the value out of the 1.0 - 1.3 ms range. It might have worked okay if I set the opening time to 0.8 ms and reset the VE table to suit - I may try that, because I'm not happy with the idle at only 1 squirt per cycle...

Hey - what's everyone using for warm-up and cold start enrichments?

[Hank Scorpio]

1 here... I'll have to try it.

I'm up at 125%VE for alot of my map now (yes, around 10:1AFR but only 9psi of boost!)

somethings going on

Derrrr.... I've been running PWM and resistors. Running it in saturated now and it seems to help some.

Doug

[the poi]

another call for 760 main ECU harness pinout, ic an't seem to find anything useful on everyone's favcorite russian website....

[linuxman51]

another call for 760 main ECU harness pinout, ic an't seem to find anything useful on everyone's favcorite russian website....

your best bet would be to pull the cover off the fuel computer's connector and play match the wire color with what you need to grab from under the hood, I had a list of pin numbers vs sensor and they were all wrong.

[the poi]

[quote:638f7bd671="the poi"]another call for 760 main ECU harness pinout, ic an't seem to find anything useful on everyone's favcorite russian website....

your best bet would be to pull the cover off the fuel computer's connector and play match the wire color with what you need to grab from under the hood, I had a list of pin numbers vs sensor and they were all wrong.[/quote:638f7bd671]damn, was afraid theyd change it around a bit between models... pinning it out probably wouldnt be too hard for the most part, but im also looking for the fuel pump relay line for a security kill-switch... problem is, even if i could find the damn fuel pump relay, i probably wouldn't be able to see really well what i was trying to get at... anyone got any suggestions on where to install the cut-off switch to the relay?

[Angus242]

On my 242 (K-Jet, soon to be MS) I put a switch in the grond wire for the relay, I did this because you can just extend the wire to the switch and ground it right near the switch, instead of having to run a second wire right back across the dash (right hand drive car) to the relay.

[Hank Scorpio]

If you want to figure pinouts go get a DMM and just do continuity tests. Put one connector in the pin at the ECU then the other at various sensors, you'll get it figured out over time.

[the poi]

unfortuantely I don't even know where the fuel pump realy is in the first place... are the pumps controlled by the fuel computer? I assume it is considering the activity doesn't seem like it can be controlled by anythign short of some board circuit. thing is, i can't find any good info on the later model 700 relay locations for the fuel pump relay...

[the poi]

anyway, besides the mysterious hiding fuel-pump relay, my MS ecu just turned on, can send and recieve data from it... no stim however so im just gonna have to hope everything else is working...guess ill get to building my harness next week, woohoo!

[Angus242]

OK so you can set Megasquirt to fire the injectors all at once or alternating, and I get the impression that alternating is best for our 4cyl motors. Is this correct?

Assuming alternating is best, it occurred to me that I could probably hook up the two banks of injectors in a few ways:

Method 1:
Bank 1: cyls 1 and 2
Bank 2: cyls 3 and 4

Method 2:
Bank 1: cyls 1 and 3
Bank 2: cyls 2 and 4

Method 3:
Bank 1: cyls 1 and 4
Bank 2: cyls 2 and 3

So, which is best? Will all three ways work? Does it even matter?

[linuxman51]

anyway, besides the mysterious hiding fuel-pump relay, my MS ecu just turned on, can send and recieve data from it... no stim however so im just gonna have to hope everything else is working...guess ill get to building my harness next week, woohoo! :werd:

as long as you put the right components in the right places, you'll be ok. i didnt get a stim either, and so far i havent had any problems :)

[245gti]

[quote:a858cfe0e7]Method 3:
Bank 1: cyls 1 and 4
Bank 2: cyls 2 and 3[/quote:a858cfe0e7]

This would be the best choice if you're going with alternating bank fire. Matt and I have both found you get a much smoother idle with simultaneous fire and 2 squirts per revolution. Others' results may be different....

[Hank Scorpio]

Im just running 1 squirt and all firing at once. Seems to be working fine, course I love the rough idle (still WAY smoother than it was with k-jet).

Doug

[dirtbike]

I can't fault my idle and I'm using 4 squirts per revolution and alternating firing.
Bank 1 - Cyl 1 and Cyl 2
Bank 2 - Cyl 3 and Cyl 4
But that just goes to show hpw different everybody has they're set up.
Regards
Nick

[linuxman51]

I get a nice smooth idle with 4 squirts and one bank (well smooth is relative, i dont have a big enough idle air hole in the TB so the idle is kinda low, but stil...)

[Angus242]

Thanks for the info guys, it looks like I have several options.

I think I'll probably start with alternating fire and make the injector wires long enough that I can just swap the wires around to see what works best. I'll use different coloured connectors for the two banks so I can see what I'm doing.

No matter how the idle is on Megasquirt I'm sure I'll think it's smooth, I'm used to K-Jet with a K cam which is very rough, and I'm putting in an H cam this week so super smooth idle isn't a big priority for me :-D

I've also been thinking about idle control, and I've realised I could do a few things. I could use an auxiliary air valve, or use a Ford idle solenoid controlled by MS, or I could use a constant idle system (CIS) I've got from a V6 760.

Has anybody used CIS to control idle on an MS car? Looking at the section on it in my Haynes manual it looks like it would probably work quite well.

[linuxman51]

Shamless plug here for me: I've got a pen computer for sale in the fs forum, they're great for tuning megasquirt, esp if you dont already have something. Its rugged, you could just about play basketball with it, touch screen, blah blah read about it there :)




In other news i've been perusing the source code for megasquirt, I'll download the ops manual for the processor after my algorithms test and begin working on this knock sensor stuff. and i might port the MSnS software from VB (:::GASP::: :freak: ) to visual C++.
things to do with your controller when the car doesnt run ;)

[the poi]

hey, i might be missing something here, but why is the lowest settings on "injectors" in the initial setup window 5? It's set to four cylinders... also, greentops are 29 lb/hr right?

[245gti]

Just change the 5 to a 4...

Your green tops are 29 lbs...correct.

[linuxman51]

you can scroll past the 5 if you use the arrow keys. I never could make the volvo fuel pump relay work with the megasquirt even with something of a wiring diagram, so I used a generic foglight relay from autozone and it works great. You'll need to make sure the spark computer turns on after all that is said and done, mine didnt and was the cause of much frustration and a days delay in getting the car running the first time.

good luck :)

[Hank Scorpio]

Yep, I just used a genric automotive (SPST iirc) relay. Problem is, the OEM one requires a few different inputs that you ussualy get rid of with MS.

[Anonymous]

Doug/Kenny - what troubles were you having with your fuel pump relays? When we wired our cars (Dale and myself), we used the OEM fuel pump relay without any troubles.

[linuxman51]

it was late, i couldnt figure out how to make it come on, so i just chucked it...

[the poi]

where is yours? do you have a relay panel behind the fuses in the enter console? i have the later model... have no idea where relay is.... thats the only real challenge. Even if i can't use ut, i need to find it so i can get at the wires leading to both pumps before there respective fuses...

[Hank Scorpio]

it was late, i couldnt figure out how to make it come on, so i just chucked it...

It was easier for me to just pull out the old relay, find the 12v and the 12v-pump leads and put my own relay in. It was wired into the stock relay, just with a common auto relay.

[WeezilUSA]

Does anybody have Jesse's current contact info? the jaodesign@yahoo.com address doesn't seem to be working.

[linuxman51]

[quote:c8547c923a="linuxman51"]it was late, i couldnt figure out how to make it come on, so i just chucked it...

It was easier for me to just pull out the old relay, find the 12v and the 12v-pump leads and put my own relay in. It was wired into the stock relay, just with a common auto relay.[/quote:c8547c923a]

spoken like a true FBotW, we definitly FB'ed the relay stuff.
In other news, I helped a buddy of mine put megasquirt on his 280z (that happens to have a hairdryer on it, no it didnt come that way from the factory). Hey doug, you wanna do a joint article on MS'ing (this offer is not limited to just doug, all the other core MS guys are welcome and certainly encouraged to chime in, I've already got one somewhat started)

I will be releasing the ultrasecret oft sought MSnS guide shortly as well 8-)

[Hank Scorpio]

Sure dude, for sure. Email me what you've got, I'll add or what not. Would love to do a good article fairly quickly. Feel free to grab anything that I wrote at the begining of this thread.

[the poi]

well im gonna try to start my little experiment tonight or tommorrow; anyone have any injector maps that may be helpful to a b230ft, t3 turbo? also, whatever was the final verdict on grounding the shield on the tach signal wire; im planning on grounding it to the computer side ground pins...

//edit: oops, and on that fuel map; running stock 29/lb injectors too till next week or so


//edit2: bitjockey's thermfactor link is down, anyone got one handy? Don't want to pull out my sensor to test it if i dont have to :-(

[the poi]

What are you guys doing for fuses? I'm wiring from scratch to minimize downtime between LH and MS, and Im running wires to the fuse box on the driver side and into some spare fuseholders, there a better way to maintain existing fuse circuits? also, considering the standard IAC is just a two-step motor, has anyone tried just using a relay that closes the IAC when there is no + coming from the fIdle out? Seems like it ought to be pretty straightforward unless im misisng something

[linuxman51]

i didnt run any at all for my first itteration of wiring harness :oops:

no problems with it tho. I'm using the idle adjustment screw on the throttle body for the idle adjustment. currently i'm using the stock fuse panel for everything (and everything is fused)

[wiggin]

i started assembling my MS board last night... !!! :-D :-D (i'm slightly excited)

[linuxman51]

its like crack isnt it ;)

[wiggin]

mmmmm must have more must have more!!!!!! :freak:

[the poi]

hey, anyone know if the EZK takes TPS, or ECT inputs? I was planning on using the EZK system, but it'll lose the ect and the tps inputs if it had em. I spose the only realy concern is the TPS, but considering the previous was just switched, should I maybe just short it so EZK always sees it was off-idle?

[the poi]

oh, and anyone know off the top of their head a good ign lead that stays on during crank? I have a lead going to the stock LH unit that does stay on during crank, however, it does not shut off immediately when ign is killed. stays on about 3 seconds... im concerned that that will mess with the fuel pump operation, since ezk will stop sparking but ms will keep going (althoguh i spose it will see a stall form the tach input...) ideas?

[dirtbike]

I'm struggling to remember but I'm almost certain that the one you want is blue and red, but to be sure please check with a multimeter.
Laters
Nick

[Angus242]

You can get TPS that contain both switch contacts and a potentiometer. I've got one from a Holden VL Commodore (Aussie car, basically a remodelled Opel with a Nissan RB30E inline 6) which has six wires, three for the contacts and three for the pot as I recall. Other cars probably use something similar, perhaps Nissans in the US given that this TPS is a Nissan part.

[linuxman51]

Couple points
I ignored the tps and ect stuff for the ignition, car did alright, you might want to consider just makeing the transision to MSnS after you get a decent tune on your fuel maps, altho i'd imagine if you just really really like ezk (it sucks) a switch for wot wouldn't be that difficult to hook up, and you could probably splice off the ect with minimal degredation to the ms signal

[the poi]

Couple points
I ignored the tps and ect stuff for the ignition, car did alright, you might want to consider just makeing the transision to MSnS after you get a decent tune on your fuel maps, altho i'd imagine if you just really really like ezk (it sucks) a switch for wot wouldn't be that difficult to hook up, and you could probably splice off the ect with minimal degredation to the ms signalmehk, thats what i was afraid of. I was trying to avoid MSnS cause i had planned to run water injection with the other injector rail...would you recommend just a basic MSD box, or do you think better timing control would be better than water injection?

[linuxman51]

FYI Megasquirt N spark version 3.0 was released last night (well, he calls it a beta, but what about this stuff isnt :wink:).
Among the things added updated:
Two programmable outputs, based on map, mat, tps,clt, ego,rpm and batt

updated most of the code to ms version 3.0 (sans one or two small things), fixes an rpm reading issue above 6000, revamps the triggering mechanism, has an option for inverted pickups (supposedly an hei thing, shouldn't affect us), aw hell i'll cut and paste the email i got:

[quote:d20e93a2c0]New features:
-Flyback modifications, fuel calculations, etc from MegaSquirt 3.0/2.987
EXCEPT odd-fire
-Earlier triggers up to 135 deg BTDC, regardless of cylinder number
-Inductive trigger support (timebased cranking timing)
-Invert output option for easier connection to GM HEI etc.
-Revlimits, soft (retard) and hard (fuel cut)
-Programmable outputs (X4 & X5)

Bug fixes
-Instable rpm indication at higher revs

NOTE: MSS v3.0 requires a MegaTuneSS v3.0 so remember to download the new
[/quote:d20e93a2c0]
yes the outputs could be used to drive a boost controller... 8-)

So, if you havent had a reason to switch to ms yet, what're you waiting for now?

[the poi]

FYI Megasquirt N spark version 3.0 was released last night (well, he calls it a beta, but what about this stuff isnt :wink:).
Among the things added updated:
Two programmable outputs, based on map, mat, tps,clt, ego,rpm and batt

updated most of the code to ms version 3.0 (sans one or two small things), fixes an rpm reading issue above 6000, revamps the triggering mechanism, has an option for inverted pickups (supposedly an hei thing, shouldn't affect us), aw hell i'll cut and paste the email i got:

[quote:88b8987a19]New features:
-Flyback modifications, fuel calculations, etc from MegaSquirt 3.0/2.987
EXCEPT odd-fire
-Earlier triggers up to 135 deg BTDC, regardless of cylinder number
-Inductive trigger support (timebased cranking timing)
-Invert output option for easier connection to GM HEI etc.
-Revlimits, soft (retard) and hard (fuel cut)
-Programmable outputs (X4 & X5)

Bug fixes
-Instable rpm indication at higher revs

NOTE: MSS v3.0 requires a MegaTuneSS v3.0 so remember to download the new

yes the outputs could be used to drive a boost controller... 8-)

So, if you havent had a reason to switch to ms yet, what're you waiting for now?[/quote:88b8987a19]
i cant seem to find any informational website with MSnS info, i was under the impression that the spark system uses one of the injector outputs for spark, is that right?

[dirtbike]

Here is the link to the yahoo board:
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/megasquirtnspark/

The pre 3.00 version of msns used the fast idle motor output, but I think most people aren't using that anyway(I'm not, Linuxman, doug and jordan i think aren't using it)

So essentially you have a spare output which you can now use to control spark via a 8x8 grid just like fuel, by the sound of things there are even more options since the code revision.
Laters
Nick

[the poi]

unfortunately running spark off the other fuel map was something i was hoping to avoid so i could run an accurate water injection system. maybe ill just give in and hold off on water injection, ick. i cant find a summary or anything on the yahoo board tho, just posts, nothign relaly solid, am i missing something.

by the wya, hers my wiring diagram for and MS/LH setup, only have to swap three connector blocks to switch between the two, heh.
http://www.pbase.com/image/22187455

[dirtbike]

The info besides the posts is in the files section, describes the dizzy to use as well as the ignition modules that are compatible.
Laters
Nick

[linuxman51]

unfortunately running spark off the other fuel map was something i was hoping to avoid so i could run an accurate water injection system. maybe ill just give in and hold off on water injection, ick. i cant find a summary or anything on the yahoo board tho, just posts, nothign relaly solid, am i missing something.

by the wya, hers my wiring diagram for and MS/LH setup, only have to swap three connector blocks to switch between the two, heh.
http://www.pbase.com/image/22187455

the only way you would be able to do that is with dual table code, which is probably not what you want on a boosted car

besides, use a programmable output for water injection above a certain rpm or map reading and be done with it.

[the poi]

[quote:aeca64a813="the poi"]unfortunately running spark off the other fuel map was something i was hoping to avoid so i could run an accurate water injection system. maybe ill just give in and hold off on water injection, ick. i cant find a summary or anything on the yahoo board tho, just posts, nothign relaly solid, am i missing something.

by the wya, hers my wiring diagram for and MS/LH setup, only have to swap three connector blocks to switch between the two, heh.
http://www.pbase.com/image/22187455
dual table code, which is probably not what you want on a boosted car
[/quote:aeca64a813]
really? i didnt think it was that differnt form the standard code...

edit:// well after looking at the MSnS site, i think ill go ahead and make the move to it, screw ezk. Am I gonna need some sort of MSD ignition box, or can I use some part of the stock system?

[dirtbike]

check the no. on the bosch ignition module you've already got and see if it one of the recommended one, probably won't be but I think kenny is using the stock one from his 7 series.
Or failing that take a trip to the junk yard and look the for one of the recommended modules.
I took mine from a 240, i also took the dizzy and the auxillary shaft as my 760 didn't have a dizzy as it used motronic and it was the module that was recommended, but I don't know if you guys got the same modules in the states???
Laters
Nick

[the poi]

check the no. on the bosch ignition module you've already got and see if it one of the recommended one, probably won't be but I think kenny is using the stock one from his 7 series.
Or failing that take a trip to the junk yard and look the for one of the recommended modules.
I took mine from a 240, i also took the dizzy and the auxillary shaft as my 760 didn't have a dizzy as it used motronic and it was the module that was recommended, but I don't know if you guys got the same modules in the states???
Laters
Nick
i checked on it, its a differnt number... im gonna have to go to the junkayrd anyway so its no problem to pick up a new ignition module, but out of curiosity, why wouldnt the system work with prettty much any ignition module that takes in an input the way the other similar modules do?

[dirtbike]

There is no reason but it's down to you to work out the pin outs.
Only other thing is that the module may have a different way of dealling with the trigger, for example the volts go high before the trigger and thenlow when it triggers if this is different on other modules your ignition trigger points will be wrong.
Laters
Nick

[linuxman51]

damnit doug, you lied to me... on cranking if you hold the throttle open past a certain %,it STOPS injection and enters whats known as "Flood clear mode"..... you goober

[dirtbike]

fitted the 53lbs mopar injectors today and used the scale VE tool in MS and it runs like a dream, so I changed from 29lbs to 53lbs and all I need was 2 values to make it work old req fuel and new required fuel.
Let the engine warm up and then played with the accel enrichment as it was a little hesitant and hey presto it's sorted.
I'm not going to have time to get it dyno'd before the weekend so i'm gonna just take it to the track and see how it goes kind of use it as a test n tune.
Installing the injectors wasn't quite as easy as I'd liked, the mopar injectors have a different pintle altogether but they bottom out on the manifold at the same place so thats great, but the slot for the retaining clip has is about 2mm out from the volvo injectors so I have no retaining clips and I'm relying on the fuel rail to clamp them.
To ensure that they aren't going to start leaking I'm going to use a rotating file and take about 2mm off the fuel rail flats on the manifold that way the injectors will be clamped better as the o-ring is only just submerged by the fuel rail.
But on the whole the new injector installation went very smoothly and the fuel system can now support more fuel than I will ever need (400hp) :badboy:
Laters
Nick