Looking for a good B21FT map to get started...

[turbobrick211]

So I got a bunch of maps from Kenny, but they are all b230ft maps. Anyone have a fairly solid b21ft map that they could share??

-E

[linuxman51]

you've got a wide band, tune that bitch!

[Forg]

Considering that peak power for the B21FT with intercooler wasn't that far removed from the B230FT peak power, and there are probably all sorts of small changes involved; the B230FT maps are probably a pretty good starting point for tuning a B21FT, especially when you've got a wideband oxy sensor?
Is that a fair assumption?

Seriously ... my MoTeC had a tune for an 1800cc mid 90's Golf GTi engine in it, and the B23/0/E/T started & even drove pretty easily on that (after I got the spark leads plugged into the right dizzy terminals).

[The Aspirator]

Most people get it started and running on the default V8 maps. So long as everything is hooked up properly it should start with even the weirdest of settings. So starting with one of Kenny's maps will give you an idea of what it should "look" like, and it'll most likely get you going no problem. Then tune.

[turbobrick211]

First off, I don't got a wide band. At least not yet. I have one of Kennys maps in it, and it fires right up and idles fine. I have tuned the idle to run nice and smooth, but I can't seem to get the next couple of bins right off idle set to where I can just rev on the pedal a little bit without alot of stumbling. It could have something to do with the screwed up CTS readings but I thought those only came into play during warm up.

[swedefiend]

First off, I don't got a wide band. At least not yet. I have one of Kennys maps in it, and it fires right up and idles fine. I have tuned the idle to run nice and smooth, but I can't seem to get the next couple of bins right off idle set to where I can just rev on the pedal a little bit without alot of stumbling. It could have something to do with the screwed up CTS readings but I thought those only came into play during warm up.

Those would be your accel enrichments. Sam tuned mine and my computer is in Memphis with my car right now so I can't really tell you. But hopefully Kenny or Sam can help you out.

[wildmanben]

how hard are you punching it? it could be an acceleration enrichment issue, not a problem with how you've tuned the bins.
-Ben

[turbobrick211]

Not punching it hard just pushing on the pedal a bit, it hesitates before reving up. I have not even attempted to drive the car yet, because I don't really want to get out on the road, and not be able to get the thing out of its own way. But, maybe I just need to go and drive the darn thing and see what's going on....

[linuxman51]

turn acceleration enrichment off for the time being, you'll find the option in tuning -> acceleration wizzard. Set the tps dot threshold to 49, and then start playing with the suspect bins.

[turbobrick211]

I have TPSdot set to like 49.73 or whatever, already.

[turbobrick211]

Well, I drove it to work this morning, and I barely made it. Strange thing is the EGO meter would not register anything while cruising or accelerating, only when decelerating, and then it was reading around .8-.9 volts. Does this mean that I am so incredibly rich that it is off the scale? Damn, I wish I had WB. It will barely accelerate, and the turbo is spooling up quite a bit, but not making much boost, though I am trying to stay out of the pedal a little. I tried raising and lowering VE numbers with no great effect to drivability. My drive however was only about 10 minutes, so I didn't get alot of time to mess around, and I was by myself, so tonight the real action begins. Currently, I have a 1-wire O2 sensor in place, should I pop in the 3-wire unit here on my desk? Would this possibly help out at all?

Thanks for the help guys, definitely helps me feel sane.

-E

[The Aspirator]

If I remember right, if it's soooper dooooper way rich the car will just act like a turd and accelerate very slowly, but semi-smoothly. If it's too lean it'll tend to buck and hesitate a whole bunch. Tune accordingly, and don't be afraid to make big changes to the map. 5 clicks doesn't necessarily make a noticable difference when you're first getting things dialed in. If there's a huge problem area on the map, pull over, change that whole area up or down 10 points, then try again.

Also are you running plain 'ol MS or MSnS?? Could be waaaay retarded timing too if it just fails to accelerate quickly.

[kyle242gt]

This might also be a recipe for MSTweak3000. Turn accel/decel off, drive as smoothly as possible at many RPM/MAP points, set EGO correction on/16events/2% step/50%authority, and datalog away.

Even a NBO2 should get you plenty of crossover points; you can then filter them and generate a map. You will get enough VE bin suggestions to clue you in where the map should be.

With about 25 minutes of driving (five five minute commutes) I had 40-100Kpa and 1500 to 4000RPM fleshed out nicely.

//edit - the three wire O2 is the same as the one wire, it just has a heater... it might be helpful IF your one wire is fugged up. :e-shrug:

[turbobrick211]

Okay, sounds like a plan. I haven't messed with MStweek yet, but will give it a shot tonight. Will it work properly with the 12x12 tables?

I don't have the ignition side of things connected yet, but I do have the proper firmware and hardware to support it, and once I get the fuel side of things worked out, I will switch over to spark. So.....

Okay, see if this sounds about right. I have the idle bin set to around 70%, and the map bins going up starting around 50 at 1000rpm, and slowly going up from there. Does this sound about right? I have tried moving them all over the board, and it hasn't made a huge difference. It does seem to buck and kick a bit, which I assume is lean. I went out at lunch and messed with it some more, and seemed to make it even worse. If the MAP gets up to around the 4th-5th bin up, the car just stops accelerating, and slows down. I don't think I could even run MSTweek right now because I can't hardly accelerate. So, that is where I stand at the moment. Thanks again. We'll see what happens....

[kyle242gt]

Okay, sounds like a plan. I haven't messed with MStweek yet, but will give it a shot tonight. Will it work properly with the 12x12 tables? Yep, works fine. You have to specify 8x8/12x12/16x16 in the options. You'll also want to save your existing map in VEX format so you can open it in MST3K; this will enter the map/rpm bins. Then clear the map, so you have a blank slate for the calculated VEs.
I don't have the ignition side of things connected yet, but I do have the proper firmware and hardware to support it, and once I get the fuel side of things worked out, I will switch over to spark. So.....
Ya know, since it runs now (even poorly), you might go to MSnS-E now; you can get the most recent MegaTune and MS firmware... that will be helpful when getting others to troubleshoot with ya.
Okay, see if this sounds about right. I have the idle bin set to around 70%, and the map bins going up starting around 50 at 1000rpm, and slowly going up from there. Does this sound about right? I have tried moving them all over the board, and it hasn't made a huge difference. It does seem to buck and kick a bit, which I assume is lean. I went out at lunch and messed with it some more, and seemed to make it even worse. If the MAP gets up to around the 4th-5th bin up, the car just stops accelerating, and slows down. I don't think I could even run MSTweek right now because I can't hardly accelerate. So, that is where I stand at the moment. Thanks again. We'll see what happens....
The failure to rev sounds like it might be spark related, but that's just a WAG.

Steady state cruising will give MS enough time to adjust VEs based on O2, there should also be an EGOCorrGauge that you can view in the main screen. That will tell you how much adjustment MS is doing to get to the NB crossover voltage (1V?). That adjustment will give you a big clue as to which way you need to set things.

You might also consier disconnecting the intake manifold from the IC, just to limit yourself to 0-100Kpa.

[turbobrick211]

Wondering if perhaps my required fuel numbers are off a bit. I think it is set around 12.6 right now. Does that sound about right? I am still b21ft, and am using the green top injectors with 3-bar FPR....

[the poi]

the reqfuel doesn't really "matter". Its just a scalar that, well, scales all the pulsewidths. if its 20% higher than what it started with, and all your VE points are 20% below what they started at, the car will run exactly the same. If you find all your VE numbers are between 0 and like 30, then lower reqfuel. if you're running out of numbers up top (like, 250% ve) then raze the reqfuel. technically, the "correct" reqfuel is where the ve numbers correctly coincide with the actual VE of the motor at that point. Its not really necessary for it to be like that though :-P



In short, get a wideband.


edit:// volvorod85's b230 with stock everything has a 19.0 reqfuel. All ve bins are between 20 and 80....


edit:// my car was like reqfuel of 9.2 with with similar ve numbers. differnt fuel injection of course.

[kyle242gt]

My Req Fuel is 12.0, divided by two to 6.0 because I have alternating injector staging. VEs from 40 - 100. B230FT with greentops.

[turbobrick211]

Thank you guys, that helps. You guys have been great. I look forward to reporting good news tonight, assuming that the temp sensors don't really screw me up.

[turbobrick211]

Okay, well I got the car running like a champ! Check this out, here is my setup:
LH 2.2 CTS
GM AIT
NB o2
850 TPS
Green top injectors with resistors
3 bar fpr

So, to get the car to actually run, I had to tell MS that I had 15 lb/hr injectors in place, instead of 28. Then, I got the VE table fairly well setup, and borrowed a WB and got it running GREAT! However, Coolant temp reads around 65* when driving around still, and I just can't figure out why the temp is reading so darn low. I checked grounds, sensor is brand new, and I have run easy therm a couple of times now, and can't seem to get it within spec. How much does this affect drivability and performance, not to mention cold/warm start situations?

Oh, and what should I set the TPSdot back to after done tuning? I assume around 2 or something, but I don't have a good reference.

Thanks again for the help!

Eric

[The Aspirator]

Glad to hear it! Yeah when you said your idle VE bin was 70, that's WAY WAY high. Especially with a req fuel of 12. My reqfuel is about 12 and idle bins are 20-30 IIRC. I'm not positive on this (hope somebody corrects me) but if your reqfuel is wrong for your specific injectors then your pulsewidth and duty cycle gauges might read wrong. And it's important that they read right so you know whether or not you're maxing out your injectors.

I'm using a new LH2.2 CTS also, no problems. I actually find that using the default coolant files that come with the program seem to read just perfectly, I can send you my file if you wish. It should read just a bit hotter than ambient on a bone cold engine, then when fully warm like 180-200*. If yours never goes above 65*f then you're ALWAYS in warmup enrichment mode, that doesn't go away until 160*, unless you set the higher bins to 0.

My TPS dot threshold is about .5, I like a nice and quick activation with semi-light throttle inputs. Setting it at 2 means it'll only activate when you hit the gas *really* hard. When tweaking this make sure to watch the AE gauge so you get a feel for what sort of throttle input triggers the AE.

Have fun with it ;-) .

John

[turbobrick211]

John, you are the man. You just cleared up a bunch of $hit for me. Still not sure why it doesn't like to have 28lb setting for the injectors, but other than that it is really making sense. I would love it if you could send me your thermfactor file, I will see if that makes a difference. I think I might also need to move my IAT, because I mounted it in the mani, and it kets pretty darn hot when idling for a while, and seems to make hot starting not so much fun.

I don't know why, but it Does come out of warm-up mode, even with the low output numbers. Seems kinda strange to me, but it does. I did notice that the injectors look like they are maxing out at about 5k rpms at 8psi boost, which doesn't sound right, I assume it is because the lb/hr rate of the injectors is set so low. I don't really know what to do about this though, just really weird.

Anyway, thanks again John. I think I might be making it up to the Vacncouver meet, so I might get to talk to you in person about stuff.

Eric

[linuxman51]

John, you are the man. You just cleared up a bunch of $hit for me. Still not sure why it doesn't like to have 28lb setting for the injectors, but other than that it is really making sense. I would love it if you could send me your thermfactor file, I will see if that makes a difference. I think I might also need to move my IAT, because I mounted it in the mani, and it kets pretty darn hot when idling for a while, and seems to make hot starting not so much fun.

I don't know why, but it Does come out of warm-up mode, even with the low output numbers. Seems kinda strange to me, but it does. I did notice that the injectors look like they are maxing out at about 5k rpms at 8psi boost, which doesn't sound right, I assume it is because the lb/hr rate of the injectors is set so low. I don't really know what to do about this though, just really weird.

Anyway, thanks again John. I think I might be making it up to the Vacncouver meet, so I might get to talk to you in person about stuff.

Eric

28 lb setting for the injectors? you must be using the req_fuel calculator in the constants page. ignore that ****, it never comes up with anything worth while, esp on a boosted car.

[turbobrick211]

Kenny, so are you saying that I shouldn't touch the required fuel calculator, and just fill in the ReqFuel? What should required fuel be around? John says around 12, but the car won't run at 12. What's up with that? If I set it to 12, then my idle VE has to be around 70% to get A/F down to around 14:1, and basic bins after that start around 60% and go up from there. Doesn't make sense man.

Anyway, what should I expect for A/F during the transition from vacuum to boost? Currently I am at around 12.3:1, but I think I could bring it up to 13.5:1 and still be safe. What do you think.

[The Aspirator]

Hey Kenny, how does MS calculate duty cycle? I assume the Reqfuel has to be a big part of it.

Eric, no problem man. Be cool to meet you if you come up for the BC meet. Here are the general easytherm values that seem to work for everyone using the volvo sensors:

Temp...............degF Resistance
-4...................28681
86...................2238
210.................177

[The Aspirator]

Anyway, what should I expect for A/F during the transition from vacuum to boost? Currently I am at around 12.3:1, but I think I could bring it up to 13.5:1 and still be safe. What do you think.At 100kpa 14-14.5 is usually good. At 125kpa mid 13's is good. 150-175kpa should be into the high 12's, and anything above 200 should probably be low 12's or 11's depending on your setup. Kenny's the mastar at high boost, I'm just guessing :-P .

John

[linuxman51]

Kenny, so are you saying that I shouldn't touch the required fuel calculator, and just fill in the ReqFuel? What should required fuel be around? John says around 12, but the car won't run at 12. What's up with that? If I set it to 12, then my idle VE has to be around 70% to get A/F down to around 14:1, and basic bins after that start around 60% and go up from there. Doesn't make sense man.

Anyway, what should I expect for A/F during the transition from vacuum to boost? Currently I am at around 12.3:1, but I think I could bring it up to 13.5:1 and still be safe. What do you think.


13.8-13.9 from vaccum to say 5psi, and start richening it up from there (low 13's high 12's by 10 psi, and 12.5-12.0 from there on out, maybe high 11's for anything over around 17psi)

Set your req fuel to something like... hm, if 12 doesnt work,try 18, 2 squirts per cycle, and see how it idles. my idle bins (for comparisions sake) were like mid 30's (but i've got ~ 46lb injectors and a req fuel of 9.0).


this is the part of ms a lotta folks don't get right off the bat.. unless someone is pimpin the same setup as you (well really more like the same cam and injectors) theres no "drop in" map. for something like a stock 740 turbo, cookie cutter maps would be a cinch, an hour on the dyno and an hour down the road and i could have a map that would give folks a bit more top end hp and cruise fuel economy and wapaow, but once you step outa that realm (into the realm where ms really shines) you pretty much step into the forest on your own. As you figure out the tuning software and how the system and your car reacts to things you'll start to see what i'm saying, and you wont have nearly as many problems).

What cam, port work, and injectors does your car have, and email me your current fuel map, i'll fiddle with some numbers and look at some stuff and see if i can get something thats more suitable, but nothings gonna drop in and go pow (i wish i could man "heres a map, no go forth and bestow volvoly beatings on z06's :-D )

[turbobrick211]

Okay, I think a bunch of things just cleared themselves up this morning. Last night, I spent a couple hours on the road to tune and got it running really good. Around 13.8-14 right at 100kpa, 12.5-13 in boost, runs super great. Well, I felt that it was kinda taking longer to get into boost then it did before MS, and so I thought I would mess with the timing a bit this morning, and found that the vac line going to the distributor was disconnected, which just happens to be T-d into the line going to the FPR. So, not only was the timing off, but the FPR was not getting a proper pressure signal, and was delivering way too much fuel, hence the reason that I had set the required fuel to 22 something. I haven't tried this yet, but I have a feeling that just changing required fuel to 12 will take care of the problem. We'll see about that tonight.

I am thinking however that I have the two temp sensors wired backwards, or perhaps the harness is wired up wrong, because the IAT is reading right about what the coolant temp should read, and the CLT is reading alot closer to ambiant temps when cruising. Is this possible? Also, seems like the IAT sensor is screwing things up when I shut the car off for a few moments (10-30 minutes), the car runs like crap when I start it up again, runs REALLY lean. Takes about 2-3 minutes before it clears up and runs normal again. Thinking that moving the IAT sensor to the intercooler pipe might be a good idea.

Anyway, you guys rock. Thanks for the moral support and ideas. Things are making much more sense. I just gott clear a coulple things up, and it is time for n'spark!!

[The Aspirator]

I was gonna say, you've got a vaccum dizzy on there!?? But then you said you've still got K-jet ignition.Some people (matt I remember) said they had wicked problems with the IAT in the manifold. Mine's in the IC pipe and it works fine.