Tuning a 16 valve with megasquirt

[linuxman51]

So i did it, had to, motor was sitting there looking so good, it was asking for it.
No real meat here yet, that'll come over the next few days as i feel the engine out a bit, but here are my initial observations:

1)8v timing curve, even for the more efficient 531, is still way too advanced for the 16v.
2) the air fuel is bizzare, at part throttle its less than the 531, at wot its substantially higher (my 13.9:1 at 100kpa afr's turned into 18:1 at 100kpa)

3) the 740 distributor works fine :cough:guidom:cough:
4) the regular brake booster can be retained (in a 700) with some creative elbow mods (pics to come) but i'm going to get a silicone 90 to clean things up and give me more space
5) it really does sound like an alfa romeo gtv

less timing and more fuel, hmm, must be more efficient than its 8v counterpart. Seems fairly quick albeit torqueless (to 4000 rpms, havent crested that yet, probably wont for a couple days. engine has 16 miles on it as it sits). Its very smooth so far.

[blkaplan]

awesome besure to document your experience here as i am going to be setting up a 16V at the end of the summer with megasquirt so this will help me as well as others as a pseudo guide

how bout some vids and sound clips?

[the poi]

a+ work. you have the turbo mani ready? or were you going to lop the flange off your SSAC?

[linuxman51]

a+ work. you have the turbo mani ready? or were you going to lop the flange off your SSAC?

we'll be building a manifold from the kit i got last summer, i'm leaving the SSA unmolested for the time being as i'll be rebuilding the old motor that was in the car (it'll be chillin on a stand in case of disaster). might start on the header tomorrow.

[olov]

man, you make 16v sound so easy i want to bolt one on :-P

good work man, keep yo head up

[linuxman51]

timing differences (this is rough stuff at the moment for the 16v map, its better but still not great)

The maps i hacked out for the 531 (pretty good, i might add, car got ~26-27mpg on the highway)
http://www.pbase.com/kdh51/image/45928944.jpg

and now modfied for le 16v:
http://www.pbase.com/kdh51/image/45928945.jpg



so far it revs freeer, holds power better, and doesnt ping on tip in (no accel enrichment yet, thats got a little to do with it)

[The Aspirator]

Kenny, you are THE MAN, thanks for continuing to pioneer this stuff for us. (okay, you're not the first, but I trust you the most ;-) ).

Poi, now you can one-up-him and MS your 24v! hehehehehe

[the poi]

Poi, now you can one-up-him and MS your 24v! hehehehehe
well now that i dont have to worry about the transmission controller any more....... :-D

[n xntrx volvo]

hmm nice map, time to go fiddle with my fidle (b4 any of you yuk off, one word edis).
chris your triangles are getting more obtuse. looking forward to what you do w/ the coils. one day i will have cop.

[linuxman51]

well now that i dont have to worry about the transmission controller any more....... :-D


dude i can't wait to see an ms'd I6 brick, thats going to be off the ****ing chain!

[Jerry]

Slight OT: It's really cool that you guys here who know their stuff about volvos and tuning them share your information with everyone.

I've learned so much from this tbricks. And i i've already purchased my MS, which would've never happend if i had not found the turbobricks.

Cool, i'm telling you.

[linuxman51]

fiddling around with the timing today yielded these results (its really about time to throw it on the dyno and hack this **** out for real)

http://www.pbase.com/kdh51/image/45978359.jpg

the short: its a lot more "streetable", it doesnt hessitate on tip in, and in a dead heat with an na 240 (e-fan mod, +10whp) i started putting a big beat down in 3rd, shifting out at 5k.

for those who havent yet driven a 16v, they (at least mine) doesnt start to really move until around 4k, so it'd be like shifting the 8v at 3k.

concentrating a little more on the air fuels, really low throttle angles down flow as well as the 531, but anything over about 1/4 throttle and the 262 waaaaaaaaaaaaaay outflows the 531.

[linuxman51]

also it should go without saying but i'll say it anyway, anything over 100kpa has *not* been touched (Accept where visible), as the car is *not* turbocharged at the moment, so dont grab them and then complain when ya blow a hole in a piston..

[740Weapon]

yep. 4000k is where they wake up.

also just two days ago i had an 8valve and a 16valve dizzy in my hands and i was saying to myself "WTF is the differance" and then i was like "nothing. WTF was guidom talking about."

good work. now dyno that biznotch and then run a 1/4 mile with it. so i atleast have something to base anything my car may or may not do off of.

[volvorsport]

yeah my 16v doesnt wake up until 4000 rpm .

Are you getting the timing from the rear mounted dizzy ? or from a block mounted one ?

[Cornercase]

I'll be MSnS'ing a 16v Turbo fairly soon. Do you think the spark maps (edit://the ones listed above) would be a good starting point, or should I try starting with the 8 valve turboo maps?

Eamon

[linuxman51]

yeah my 16v doesnt wake up until 4000 rpm .

Are you getting the timing from the rear mounted dizzy ? or from a block mounted one ?

signal from a block mounted dizzy (thats capless, its just a pickup sensor basically) and distributing the spark with a dummy head mount.

as far as turbo ignition timing, i'd take a fairly agressive 8v ms map, and divide them by half and go from there.

[The Aspirator]

signal from a block mounted dizzy (thats capless, its just a pickup sensor basically) and distributing the spark with a dummy head mount.That's a really cool idea.

[luke242ti]

That's a really cool idea.

I'll second that!

[linuxman51]

with 410 (actually its almost 500 :-O ) on the clock i've changed the bones (Clean, whew) and then tacked on another 100 miles with the limiter set at 6800, and the car scoots right along. I've clobbered the fuel maps beta testing the software jaypsc wrote, but it seems to be going fairly well after some initial learning (~200 miles worth of datalogging, yes i drive the car that much), I think I might need to pull just a smoach off the top in the upper rpms, it screams to about 5500 and then seems to labor a little bit (of course, 110mph in 4th might have something to do with that).

feels quicker than the 90 w/531 at 6psi, esp up top (lacking a little on the bottom naturally, but not too bad, it accelerates in 4th at 700 rpms, sorta, but once it gets to around 2300 it starts to roll on out, then speed becomes a problem)

http://www.pbase.com/kdh51/image/46277594.jpg


Either the distributor's physical locality (fairly likely) or some bizzareness in the ms timing calculations, makes the car go nuts with more than 40 degrees of timing, esp below 3500. I think whats happening is the distro is not close enough to a pole to discharge, i might try and rotate the cap a little more, i suspect fuel econ would pick up a bit if i could get away with some more mid range timing. its riding around 18-20 city right now and i'm not sparing the engine any, its getting worked hard and put up wet (if it can't hack it NA theres no point in turbocharging it eh? )

[ZVOLV]

3) the 740 distributor works fine :cough:guidom:cough:



also just two days ago i had an 8valve and a 16valve dizzy in my hands and i was saying to myself "WTF is the differance" and then i was like "nothing. WTF was guidom talking about."




The b234 dist has one of the mounting tabs in a different location. If you try to use an 8v dist on a 16v head one of the tabs will be sticking up in the air. They had different numbers on them too. There is a SLIGHT chance I am wrong on this one, but I am 99% sure I am correct.

[linuxman51]

The b234 dist has one of the mounting tabs in a different location. If you try to use an 8v dist on a 16v head one of the tabs will be sticking up in the air. They had different numbers on them too. There is a SLIGHT chance I am wrong on this one, but I am 99% sure I am correct.


that would be a negative, it goes in and looks just like the distro on the 8v, wires comin out the top.

[linuxman51]

After fiddling with jay's program, I finished the fuel map myself (for the most part, my "interstate square" needs a little fine tuning, but the rest of the map is superb)

messed with the timing map, the car doesnt feel noticeably slower with a ****load less ignition timing (well i take that back, it feels more "Volvoish with less timing, and with more timing at WOT it develops this roar at higher rpms and pulls a bit harder. the dyno will show true which of the two ideas works better), and so far, less is better everywhere else, its very un 8vish, it works with a near 8v timing map, but it works a loooot smoother and nicer with something way less agressive. map to be posted shortly.

[Cornercase]

One more thing...what kind of fuel maps are you using? Just one from your 8v?

Eamon

[linuxman51]

One more thing...what kind of fuel maps are you using? Just one from your 8v?

Eamon


no, those were completely ass wrong.. at 100kpa (wot na) it was running 18.5:1. with the 531 it was 13.8.

[linuxman51]

Dynoed the car today, results were about 20hp higher than I expected (and about 40 torque higher haha)

143/142 at the rear wheels on the last pull, with my e-fans on it would pull 142/141.5 (hp/tq), and all 12 pulls were 140+ on both.

timing map used is as follows: (the 85/95/120 lines were merged to try and figure out where i was having issues with my torque curve, i'm just going to chalk it up to bizzare exhaust flow from a ported head to a stock manifold or something like that)
http://www.pbase.com/kdh51/image/46815413.jpg

[the poi]

Dynoed the car today, results were about 20hp higher than I expected (and about 40 torque higher haha)

143/142 at the rear wheels on the last pull, with my e-fans on it would pull 142/141.5 (hp/tq), and all 12 pulls were 140+ on both.

timing map used is as follows: (the 85/95/120 lines were merged to try and figure out where i was having issues with my torque curve, i'm just going to chalk it up to bizzare exhaust flow from a ported head to a stock manifold or something like that)
[img]http://www.pbase.com/kdh51/image/46815413.jpg[img]
looks pretty smooth. you fiddle with the cam positioning yet? whats the redline set to?

[linuxman51]

looks pretty smooth. you fiddle with the cam positioning yet? whats the redline set to?

nah that was all timed straight up. i'll mess with it some when i get everything else sorted.
I let off around 6500, redline is 6800. stock manifold seems to get really restrictive around 55

[the poi]

nah that was all timed straight up. i'll mess with it some when i get everything else sorted.
I let off around 6500, redline is 6800. stock manifold seems to get really restrictive around 55
weak. well, i guess its time to get rid of that manifold then......

[linuxman51]

weak. well, i guess its time to get rid of that manifold then......



mmmhmmm.

[The Aspirator]

You need a hairdryer to add some torque! So how much do dyno pulls like that cost you? I'm really curious, since you seem to go alot. Do you have to pay more to be able to tune while up there?

[linuxman51]

You need a hairdryer to add some torque! So how much do dyno pulls like that cost you? I'm really curious, since you seem to go alot. Do you have to pay more to be able to tune while up there?

These questions will not be answered.

[The Aspirator]

:-(

[Cornercase]

What are the fuel maps on this car looking like?

Eamon

[linuxman51]

What are the fuel maps on this car looking like?

Eamon

like a fuel map... ;-)

nothing special to see there, fuel tuning is as straight forward as it gets.

[acbarnett]

I'm planning on getting in on the 16v turbo action this fall, and I want to try and work on casting my own AL manifold using lost wax or lost foam. Right now I'm thinking of a log-type setup with the throttle body facing forward for a direct shot from the IC to the engine. If I get around to doing this, would you like to get in on the OEM-looking custom intake mani goodness?

[linuxman51]

I'm planning on getting in on the 16v turbo action this fall, and I want to try and work on casting my own AL manifold using lost wax or lost foam. Right now I'm thinking of a log-type setup with the throttle body facing forward for a direct shot from the IC to the engine. If I get around to doing this, would you like to get in on the OEM-looking custom intake mani goodness?

sure, i've got a couple spare manifolds coming my way, gonna try and do the chop'n weld as well.

[blarf]

that would be a negative, it goes in and looks just like the distro on the 8v, wires comin out the top.

Holy thread ressurection.

Could that be the difference then?

The 16V distributor points the wires to the RH side, the 8V distributor points the wires to the top?

http://www.timmismotor.com/images/automall/full1948.png

http://epic.mcmaster.ca/~bill/volvo/image_db/b234f/16v%20oil%20leak%20repair2.jpg

I bet the side exit allows the wires to more easily hide in the big valley there.

[linuxman51]

could be, but the dummy distro i got with the 16v looks the same as the 8v distro at a glance.
with the cap pointing up it still wouldnt be difficult to hide the wires, i just havent gotten around to re-adjusting my msd wires from when they were on the 8v setup. might not, might use the spare 4 and just make new wires for the 16v and keep those for the spare engine thats taking shape on da stand.



in other news, my timing map looks... interesting, not like anything else ive posted to date.

and the car drives wonderfully.

[ZVOLV]

Vadis lists a different part number for the b230ft dist and the b234/b204 dist. I also think I noticed different Bosch numbers between the distributors at one point. AND if kenny says the terminals point up, instead of sideways, that is also a pretty big discrepancy. I wouldnt expect the stock wires to fit well, if at all.

I have a 16v distributor in my hand and the Bosch number is: 1 235 102 008. I think the lh2.4 8v dist ends in 007, or something like that. If anybody has a lh2.4 8v dist laying around they could compare bosch numbers....

Sorry to post this kinda stuff on your tuning thread, but it was mentioned in your orignal post. I appreciate all the 16v info that kenny and others post.

[blarf]

Vadis lists a different part number for the b230ft dist and the b234/b204 dist. I also think I noticed different Bosch numbers between the distributors at one point. AND if kenny says the terminals point up, instead of sideways, that is also a pretty big discrepancy. I wouldnt expect the stock wires to fit well, if at all.

If the wires are long enough, I suppose they should fit just fine. Or you could just run w/o the spark plug wire cover and hope for the best. If you look carefully at the pictures of the two distributors you can see that the backing plate is shaped differently, and thus the cap would be aligned differently:

8v, top part turns to the right:

http://fcpgroton.com/images/0986237605.jpg

16v, top part turns to the left:

http://fcpgroton.com/images/0237502003.jpg

Of course, as Kenny has pointed out both distributors fit on 8v and 16v cams just fine. More fodder for the 16V+T FAQ I suppose.

So, back to the thread at hand:

Kenny, how much boost are you running? How much power you makin'? When you gonna sell ready made MSnS + 16V+T pistons + manifold kits :-D

[Unregistered]

dumb question sorry, whats kpa?

[The Aspirator]

It's a different way of measuring boost, like PSI. Atmospheric pressure is roughly 100kpa, below that is vacuum and above that is boost. I think 255kpa is about 21psi.

[linuxman51]

100kpa is 1 bar.

Ran 14ish psi for a little while, but settled for 7 shortly after the tbricks meet (bout the next tank of gas actually). Got some new injectors to play with, will up the bewsty likely when they go in, along with the new (somewhat better, certainly uglier) manifold and fixed rear suspension.

engine kits? hehehe