Hot start gremlin, seriously messing with me

[kyle242gt]

I've seen this mentioned in the past, such as this post (http://www.turbobricks.com/forums/showpost.php?p=478604&postcount=9)

Well, it hit me today. It seems to be a problem only since I reoriented my dist (http://www.turbobricks.com/forums/showpost.php?p=477950&postcount=17)

First start of the day is a piece of cake. The car sat for two hours on a hot day (90F) and managed to restart okay, though I did fiddle with the cranking PWs a little bit (nothing significant). The car sat for an hour and :rant: it musta taken fifteen minutes of cranking to get it to start. Drove back to work (five min) and it won't restart.

Can those who have had the problem let me know what they did to get around it? It's kinda scary to be stranded.

[kyle242gt]

Hmmm... increased hot PWs to 7 from 2, and it's starting better. But now it's stupid lean, barely runs. :???: In the process of getting it to start, I played with lots of settings, and can't remember what I did :pow: Maybe I've got a better MSQ floating around somewhere.

Man it's hot out there.

[kyle242gt]

Gaaarghh. Fires up nicely now, and I seem to have an issue with trigger angle, ha. ha. ha. :roll:

I really want to run 90 +22.5 = 112.50. When I enter 90, TA box holds 90 as a value, car starts and runs perfectly. Shut MS/MT off, and trigger angle resets to 0. Since my cranking advance (20) is so close to the TA (0+22.5=22.5), for some reason advance drops to -10. THAT can't be good for starting.

Here's the trippy part, if I put 112.5-45=67.50 ~~68 in for TA, it starts and runs horribly. Don't have a timing light handy, but it's stupid lean... moving TA up to 75/85 seems to help.

And that, my friends, makes no damn sense. 85+45 = 130 which is way off my desired TA of 112.50.

I'm off to the MSEFI boards with this, but welcome any help.

[The Aspirator]

My crank settings used to look like this and I was having the same problem:
0F = 9
20F = 8
40F = 7
60F = 6
80F = 5
100F = 4
130F = 4
160F = 4

And this fixed it completely:
0F = 9
20F = 9
40F = 9
60F = 9
80F = 9
100F = 9
130F = 9
160F = 9

*I think*.

Also I had the same other problem as you, while cranking the spark advance would dump to -10* just a second after starting, so if it didn't catch before that it would just STOP all of a sudden. I believe a code upgrade fixed this, cause it was a while ago.

No problems anymore though!

[benflynn]

i had the same(-10) problem ,i reflashed the controller and it went away...but i cant remember if that was the only change

[kyle242gt]

Thanks fellas.

I've been screwing with trigger angle ... did I mention it's HOT today. :huh:

From MSefi, I have learned that a 90* TA is no good, 89.5 is the max, and it gets truncated to 89. 89 + 22.5 runs like dogsh!t, while 90+22.5 is beautiful (unobtainable, but beautiful). 88+45 is close enough to drive home, but still doesn't feel right. It makes ZERO sense that the math doesn't work... how can 133 be better than 111.5, but worse than 112.5? I'll play around with my timing light tonight and see what's up.

On the plus side, at least the hot start thing is fixed.

I'm running 24s9, what are you jokers running?

[benflynn]

24s9

[The Aspirator]

Same for me. My bro is running 022e4 with no problems that I know of.

[linuxman51]

Thanks fellas.

I've been screwing with trigger angle ... did I mention it's HOT today. :huh:

From MSefi, I have learned that a 90* TA is no good, 89.5 is the max, and it gets truncated to 89. 89 + 22.5 runs like dogsh!t, while 90+22.5 is beautiful (unobtainable, but beautiful). 88+45 is close enough to drive home, but still doesn't feel right. It makes ZERO sense that the math doesn't work... how can 133 be better than 111.5, but worse than 112.5? I'll play around with my timing light tonight and see what's up.

On the plus side, at least the hot start thing is fixed.

I'm running 24s9, what are you jokers running?


24s9.

use +45 and 67.5 for your trigger angle to get 112.5


*edit. before you pull an isaac, have you actually *SET* the trigger angle or are you just playing with it until the car "feels right".

[jao]

sometimes pulling the fuel pump relay out and cranking it will get it to start on those rare ocassions that mine doesn't want to start ;-)

[ovlov760]

I had the exact same problem. I did some messing around with the PW table and ASE table and it started up fine everytime today. What values are you using?

[kyle242gt]

24s9.
use +45 and 67.5 for your trigger angle to get 112.5
*edit. before you pull an isaac, have you actually *SET* the trigger angle or are you just playing with it until the car "feels right".

Hi Kenny-

I calc'd it out at 83+22.5, on my B21F+T-T. I kept that when I swapped engine (same dist). What pissed me off is I couldn't run as much advance as everyone else.

So the other day (after you kindly posted your ign maps), I set the dist to point right at #1 at 20BTDC per timing marks. Then I "Isaac'd" a TA of about 20 (which we all know won't work in reality), so I added 90* (thinking in dist degrees, another error, the TA is in crank degrees*), and hot damn it ran perfect.

*and of course, I can't do 180+22.5:roll:

I'm now thinking that the TA of 90, while it's entered, sorta tricks MS into allowing a ZERO TA. That, plus my 22.5, gives me a TA of 22.5.

I'll give it another shot today; goan yank the dist, make sure it CAN point at #1 at 20BTDC, and calc TA the PITA way (crank it forward, then back, then do a voodoo chant) and see what I get.

What TA are you guys running with the 2.2 blockmount dist? And are you getting to 50BTDC?

ovlov760 - my crank PWs are now 14/13/13/13/10/10/9/9/9/9. Formerly, the hot PWs were 2. Makes sense in retrospect (don't it always) this would only show up as a problem as it's gotten hotttttt this week.

[The Aspirator]

My trigger angle is 53, no addition, and the timing light lines up exactly with MS. I'm running 51* timing at 55kpa 3000-3500rpm, could probably go a bit higher. My brother is running a TA of 60, no addition, highest advance is 50* at 60kpa 3500-4000rpm. I think his car complains if we go any higher. Speaking of which I've gotta go tune that thing today....

John

[kyle242gt]

Anyone running inverted spark?

when I follow1) Set the crank at TDC
2) Rotate the distributor (opposite direction) just until middle LED turns OFF (sets the crank angle)
3) Make sure the rotor arm points towards the correct contact in the distributor cap
4) Fix the distributor
5) Turn engine backwards until middle LED turns ON (should be almost immediately) and continue turning until it turns OFF again

#1-4 are easy, BUT there's a problem with the hall gate. The edge turns on the LED when it's IN the sensor. Rotating the dist until the LED is off puts the edge just in front of the sensor. Rotating the engine backwards until the LED comes on takes a LONG time, since I have to pass the whole open area in the gate. And that's how I wound up with a) a really high TA (105ish) and b) a dist rotor pointing halfway to the previous terminal.

Inverting seemed to help - I was able to keep the dist pointed roughly where I want it, but the LED setup instructions don't work, leaving me flying blind. Using John's 53 and 60 as WAGs had the car idling nicely, but about 40 degrees too far advanced. Rotating the dist to get it in line once again left the rotor wrong.

So then I see this Wiring choice - Hall sensor
How you should connect a Hall sensor to the MSS all depends on what comes out of the Hall sensor.

Turn the engine until cylinder 1 should fire. Turn the distributor until the rotor point to the contact for cylinder 1 in the distributor cap.

Make sure one of the metal finger edges are close to the Hall sensor, either going in or out will be fine.

Turn the engine backwards until the edge is well out of the Hall sensor. Measure the output voltage from the Hall sensor Turn the engine forward until the edge has passed through the Hall sensor. Measure the output voltage.

If both voltages are low, attach a pullup resistor to the output. A 1K resistor will probably be fine. Test again

If the output goes from high to low you should use schematic 1
If the output goes from low to high you should use schematic 2

So I guess I'll check that out next. This has me contemplating burning the car to the ground.

[The Aspirator]

Are you using a timing light during this? If not you're just wasting your time bud. I have run inverted in the past successfully, but currently am not (forgot why I changed).
Good luck with it!!!

[linuxman51]

Your trigger angle doesnt really matter as long as its higher than your max desired advance (it will start misbehaving when you get right up to the trigger angle and go past it), my current trigger angle iirc is something like 112, as long as you can accurately nail down the trigger angle and verify that its working correctly, you're fine, dont worry so much about what the numbers are :)

[dirtbike]

From memory my TA is about 115.
but I'm using a locked 240 block mount dizzy opposed to the head mount.
Laters
Nick

[kyle242gt]

I think I got it. I spent most of the day farting with this thing. :grrr: and finally just ignored the instruction to
1) Set the crank at TDC
2) Rotate the distributor (opposite direction) just until middle LED turns OFF (sets the crank angle)
Since it conflicted with reality. Rather, I put the dist in the middle of its adjustment range, pointed the rotor at the #1 terminal, and cranked backwards until the light went on (took about 40*+ and back off again). Wound up with a measured 115. Locked the timing to 20, and it fired right up, but was wayyyy advanced. I increased the TA and then retarded the dist all the way... interestingly, my TA is now 89+45, or 134, which is as far as MS goes.. I'd like to go just a touch higher to get the rotor aimed better.

Although the rotor still points a little farther from the cap terminal than I'd like, it ran on 50* just fine. I did have to knock down Kenny's ~40BTDC at 120Kpa/2000RPM, but we all know that's a little silly for 87 octane on a 100F day... other than that, and excluding the upper boost ranges which I haven't approached since revising my EBC setup, I'm following superpimp's map.

Something occurred to me through all this - back in the day, running the incorrect wiring scheme (Kenny and John know what I'm talking about, and John may still be running it?) I had much much higher levels of advance than the 37 I managed after the rewire. So maybe, just maybe, the first scheme (while prone to misfiring) agreed better with my dist.

Very fruity that this gave me so much trouble. Kinda keeps a guy humble though.

Thanks for all the advice throughout one of my worst days of MS. :roll:

[The Aspirator]

Naw I rewired it for the 139 a few months ago. You hit that thing with a timing light yet?? Kenny I've used a 20* trigger angle before with no ill effects.... :e-shrug:

[linuxman51]

well, way back in the day my trigger angle was like 14 (with the distro thats currently in the 16v), i tried hooking it up with the new schematic (as I'd been using on the 90's other motor), and it wouldn't do right at all, i could illicit the occasional 40-60 degree change, there was no fine tuning, and it would read the same timing with a trigger angle of 25 as it would with 85, 5 and 88 would get me to within ~ 10 or so, and trigger angle addition would bomb the whole thing out.

rewired it back to schematic 1 with a 1k pull up resistor, 115 trigger angle, pow, perfect.

i think there are a few oddball volvo distros floating around, this one's different from all the other ones i've seen and played with, & has always acted different too. (I think its "inverted"... the gates are off 90 from the other distros, cause my rpm would be perfect no matter how it was wired, but the spark side of life was waay whacked out).

I've got a headmount distro im going to be putting on the car, i might go back to the way things used to be and see how that works.

[benflynn]

dose anyone use trim angle to line things up? that is how i zero out but i dont think it is correct....i will change to a 240 dizzy when i put the b cam in so i will probably stop pulling my hair till then

[linuxman51]

dose anyone use trim angle to line things up? that is how i zero out but i dont think it is correct....i will change to a 240 dizzy when i put the b cam in so i will probably stop pulling my hair till then


trim angle is like physically turning the distro, it changes the whole map up or down.


I think we can make a case for at least two different kinds of volvo distros, mine came out of an 83 volvo 240, how bout the rest of yall who've had problems using schematic 2?

[Lord_Athlon]

all the problems I was having was with an 83 distro too...i think its those distros used in conjunction with lh2.0 (83, maybe 84). I rewired it to schematic one, and bam, triggerangle of 83+45, lines up perfectly, no weird misfire etc.....

[kyle242gt]

I think we can make a case for at least two different kinds of volvo distros, mine came out of an 83 volvo 240, how bout the rest of yall who've had problems using schematic 2?

Mine's from a LH2.2 car, whatever year that wound up being... I think. Been a while.

[Lord_Athlon]

where there ever 240s that didnt use that stupid black box on the passenger side, because the two we used were out of an 83, and an 84, and they both didnt like schematic two

[The Aspirator]

Well the other day I was trying feverously to diagnose a problem I was having, so I tried 3 different hall sensors. If you look at the top of the little black hall sensor square there's a part number, two of my hall sensors had the same part number. It was like 3 digets long and started with a 2 I think. The other one had a different p/n. On the gate part, two of them had wide metal chunks with small openings, the other one had small metal chunks with wide openings. This sensor when put at TDC also put the gates in a different location to the hall sensor compared to the other ones. Like for example, two of 'em were just entering an open gate, and the one was halfway through a metal gate. Anyone following this? All I'm boiling down to is that the two different kinds of hall sensors required a completely different trigger angle. So if you blow a dizzy and swap in another one, it might need some trigger angle love unless it's got the same part number.

K guys, post your p/n's. The ones running my car and my bro's car say "..232", these have wide metal gates and skinny open gates. We're both using schematic #2. My trigger angle is 62*, my brothers is 53*. The other one had a 4 digit p/n I think, but also worked with schematic two before I blew up my engine and broke it.

[kyle242gt]

The number is 22 39, printed in white on top of the hall sensor near the outer edge of the dist body, the teefs on the gate are about 1/2", the openings about 5/8". Using Schematic 2 with a 139* TA

[Lord_Athlon]

The number is 22 39, printed in white on top of the hall sensor near the outer edge of the dist body, the teefs on the gate are about 1/2", the openings about 5/8". Using Schematic 2 with a 139* TA

Both of mine are the same way, taken out of b23 volvo 240's, at least i think they are, im gonna check tonight

[Lord_Athlon]

I finally got around to looking at my distro, the last three numbers on the distro are 004, and the numbers on the hall sensor are 27 64. The hall is in its gate about 20 degrees TDC (well, 20 degrees before the notch on the distro housing)