Please Help my MS, it is sad!!! for the Guru's...

[TheOtherDoug]

Ok all, would like to rundown my setup to see if anybody can help me find my problem..

b21ft block
b23f head and camshaft
b23f headgasket

Can someone clue me in as to if this is a straightforward swap or did I miss something serious in the swap

stock k-jet ignition
stock intercooler
greentops
stock turbo
2.5" open downpipe
plx wideband sensor

running with 12* of ignition advance.. the car just pops and sputters. Dougy's suggestion was to set it up more to about 20*. helped slightly, so i went up more to 25* now it seems somewhat normal.. Now as I tune at 5-7psi (stock wastegate setting) The car "pop,pop,pop, sputter, sputter,poppopoppoppop's" repeatedly until I lift off the throttle.. The wideband while all of this is happening is reading about between 8-10-12 afr's. Also something that troubles me is that my car will NOT idle at anything leaner than about 10 afr.. I have a small idle misfire when I do have it at that idle mixture.

Also my wideband seems to be reading alot more "bouncy" than I would have expected...
I used the settings in the settings.ini file to convert the o2 volts gauge in MS to the afr gauge

Heres a paste of one of my datalogs.. Can somebody help me make some sense of this.. I wanna make my car be as fast as it sounds...(open downpipe) lol

Thanks again fellas in advance for all your help...

http://www.we-todd-did-racing.com/wetoddimage.wtdr/wMTAyNzkwNTZzNDEzZGZkMzF5NTQx.jpg

[n xntrx volvo]

you're running the ballast pack right? other then that, make sure your cams not off a tooth.

[benflynn]

what dizzy are you running...have you checked your trigger angle with a timing light to make sure it is right...what are your timing settings (other than adv*)..is the ego correction turned on(iguess not by your datalog)...how about revlimiters and such...maybe you can post a msq file...what version of firmware..also mine acted a little funny where i had the dizzy set at first

[TheOtherDoug]

yes im running a resistor pack from a honda prelude

its stock k-jet ignition, so no trigger angles

and the cam timing issue. Ive pulled it apart 3 times already to check it and i think its right... Dont know if the b23 head is the same height (could affect cam timing)..Im stumped

[The Aspirator]

running with 128 of ignition advance.. the car just pops and sputters. Dougy's suggestion was to set it up more to about 20*. helped slightly, so i went up more to 25* now it seems somewhat normal.. What do you mean by 128* advance? You're just using the K-jet ignition, so set it to 10-20* at idle with a timing light, making SURE that it's not off a tooth. Are all your constants set properly in megatune? Post a screenshot of that if you're not sure.

Looking at the TPS/RPM/MAP/AFR that datalog looks about normal for a crappy tune.

[GEMorris]

How do you check if your distro is off a tooth? My 12* advance is almost at one of the stops for rotating the distro. Is there a method to check?

[The Aspirator]

Well it could be off a tooth or two at the intermediate shaft gear, and you're compensating with rotating the dizzy. Or it could have been installed one distributor drive tooth off, it's pretty easy to do that and not realize it when you put in the dizzy. At top dead center you want the rotor basically pointing right at contact #1 in the dizzy cap. There is usually a little notch in the top of the dizzy housing as a second refference.

[Morley]

b21ft block
b23f head and camshaft
b23f headgasket

Whaaaaat? No typo there, is it? A B23 gasket won't work nicely on a B21.

Dunno if that's the source of your problems though.

[adrianpike]

Whaaaaat? No typo there, is it? A B23 gasket won't work nicely on a B21.

That was the first thing I noticed as well.

Also, where did the bottom left of your datalog screencap go?

So you've got 100% fuel cut on decel?

Are you certain your wideband is calibrated correctly?

[TheOtherDoug]

well.. wouldnt you rather put a bigger bore gasket on rather than a smaller one.. when i put on the b23 gasket it was like a 1/16 of an inch step all around. As long as the gasket is no smaller than the cylinder bore I think im cool. Ive seen stock replacements on other cars headgaskets ive done have this much of a step. Not a biggie i think.

To answer other questions. Even it i was off a tooth on the dizzy rotating it would solve that problem... ive tried all kinds of base timing settings from about 10-40* all run like crap so i know this is NOT the problem now...

My wideband does not have a calibration procedure... PLX

thanks for all the suggestions fellas I really appreciate it. I guess I will keep leaning out until it runs better. My deduction after driving it a little more like this is that either the spark is blowing out under high loads.. or the car is so damn rich it is misfiring. When this happens the WB reads the air and raw fuel in the cylinder. Im just afraid to keep leaning you know..

initial post also edited to read 12* advance... not 128.. lol

[The Aspirator]

I think you're just stoooopid rich. Off boost, if you're too lean (17.0) it'll start bucking and surging. In boost, (light on the throttle there buddy boy) you'll hear light pinging, shouldn't hurt anything, but it'll let you know where you're at. Assuming your wideband is accurate, you don't need to be running below 12 anywhere on the map, except maybe 20psi.

15.0 afr off boost
14.0 afr at 0 boost
12.5 afr at 10+psi

[Kevin Hawkinson]

It sounds like an ignition misfire.
Should probably clean your plugs.
Also you can check your plug wires with a timing light (if you can get it to run at all). Just clip on to each wire and see what kind of signal your getting.

[dirtbike]

I remember that when I flashed a new version of the MS code, the default settings were so rich that I left an 18" black circle on the floor, but I'm running 56lb injectors so it was stoopid rich, I couldn't seem to lean it out so I reflashed the original code and it ran like a dream so put the new code in again...

and again it ran tearjerkingly rich but before I managed to actually load my msq the car died and wouldn't start. Pulled the plugs and they looked like they had been used to scrape out an old chimney there was so much carbon build up(I wouldn't be at all surprised to find that they were the originals plugs from the factory) changed the plugs and it fired right up, loaded my map and it ran fine.

So the point of my post is that if you have been very very rich you could have killed your plugs, if you have enough carbon build up it will conduct the spark energy and the spark will not actually jump the gap so you won;t ignite the mixture.

Laters
Nick

[tequila_gundam_no_chaser]

what dizzy are you running...have you checked your trigger angle with a timing light to make sure it is right...what are your timing settings (other than adv*)..is the ego correction turned on(iguess not by your datalog)...how about revlimiters and such...maybe you can post a msq file...what version of firmware..also mine acted a little funny where i had the dizzy set at first

Check, recheck, then double check your trigger angle. At very mild settings, my car would detonate on timing too after re-doing my HG and having to redo the distributor. Trigger angle will throw off your timing if the disty is off .

[benflynn]

my bad

[Unregistered]

thanks for all the replies fellas still helpin out... been wasting so much gas just tuning that im broke now....lol. umm no trigger angle problems cause im using the kjet ignition... think im gonna just keep leaning it out until it starts running normally.

-Doug

[Kevin Hawkinson]

If it is running like you described, then it is not a fuel problem.
You have described an ignition problem.
Maybe you have all stock components, and maybe it all worked just fine before you did the swap. But if you touched ANYTHING on the ignition system AT ALL, or if you ran it way too rich when you first started it up, then I guaran-f'ing-tee that that is where your problem lies.
Just pull the plugs and look at em.

[TheOtherDoug]

guess what guys... I did a couple tests today. Pulled the rail and watched the fuel spray..looks beautiful.. got out the voltmeter and started checking voltage drops.. Found something interesting. with positive lead on the + of the battery, and the negative on the positive of the ignition coil... i get 3.4 volts... This means that my coil is only getting 8.6 volts, not twelve.. You think this might be why my car cant move itself when the engine load rises...lol i think so. also found a bad ground leading to the engine from the battery so It explains why my battery is now dead... YAY! I think i found the problem but im gonna check for sure tomorrow when i get home from work. Thanks for keeping on with the response guys...

[NeoSpeed740ti]

I've never played with 240 volvos so maybe I'm all f-ed up, but I played a whole lot with my 1982 saab 900 turbo (k-jet). The saab and I'm assuming old 240 turbos as well had no ignition computer to speak of. It had vacuum and centrifugal advance in the dizzy with 'boost retard' (vacuum advance backwards) when the engine started to rev the weights and vacuum advance would rotate the hall effect pick up altering the signal sent to the bosch 139 ignition module. Now at least on a SAAB you have to lock the dizzy before you megasquirt or just leave the ignition system alone and just run fuel. If you dont, megasquirt will advance the timing in software while the dizzy still mechanically advances the timing, which is going to totally f*** you. just my $.02 maybe 240 turbos ignitions are different then saabs.

[swedefiend]

I've never played with 240 volvos so maybe I'm all f-ed up, but I played a whole lot with my 1982 saab 900 turbo (k-jet). The saab and I'm assuming old 240 turbos as well had no ignition computer to speak of. It had vacuum and centrifugal advance in the dizzy with 'boost retard' (vacuum advance backwards) when the engine started to rev the weights and vacuum advance would rotate the hall effect pick up altering the signal sent to the bosch 139 ignition module. Now at least on a SAAB you have to lock the dizzy before you megasquirt or just leave the ignition system alone and just run fuel. If you dont, megasquirt will advance the timing in software while the dizzy still mechanically advances the timing, which is going to totally f*** you. just my $.02 maybe 240 turbos ignitions are different then saabs.

They are different. The k-jet does have an ICU. It is a small 4" x 4" box that controls the coil. It does have a boost retard but that shouldn't cause a problem in itself as you should be tuning the fuel to match the load (which is measured by the ICU directly from the dizzy). The MS then just takes it's que from the coil. There is a way to use the k-jet dizzy with MSnS-E, but it involves some black magic and an HEI module I believe. If you were to employ that route, you would need to disconnect the boost retard signal from the dizzy.

[Kevin Hawkinson]

Perhaps I am restating what was in the previous post, but...:
K-jet distributors have vacuum advance/boost retard and mechanical advance. Maybe that ignition box is just an ignition amp? I dunno, I switched to LH as an interim solution before I go MS.

[kyle242gt]

guess what guys... I did a couple tests today. Pulled the rail and watched the fuel spray..looks beautiful.. got out the voltmeter and started checking voltage drops.. Found something interesting. with positive lead on the + of the battery, and the negative on the positive of the ignition coil... i get 3.4 volts... This means that my coil is only getting 8.6 volts, not twelve.. You think this might be why my car cant move itself when the engine load rises...lol i think so. also found a bad ground leading to the engine from the battery so It explains why my battery is now dead... YAY! I think i found the problem but im gonna check for sure tomorrow when i get home from work. Thanks for keeping on with the response guys...

Meant to reply yesterday - that voltage difference is supposed to be there, that's the ballast resistor keeping the coil from burning up. Check the voltage when cranking, I bet it's much closer to 0 differential.

I had a helluva time getting my MSnS'd Kjet (NA) started the first time, there's a wire from the coil- that tells the fuel pump relay to keep flowing; dunno if the B21FT Kjet has that or not... sounds like you're getting fuel anyway.

I'd suggest pulling the vac adv/ret from the dist, pulling the IC->TB hose, and generally removing as many variables as you can.

Looking at your log image, it looks like you're hitting 100% DC at 5500RPM and 150Kpa... that seems like it'd be pretty rich. I don't usually hit 100% until 200Kpa+/-; but maybe that's just due to engine differences.
//edit - just saw the megasuxors post - :-D way to go!