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Chigga 744SE
08-09-2005, 10:54 PM
if you going to bash my lack of knowledge or tell me to search, use pm yo.

I have ms'n's from Kenny sitting in my room, I have yet to install it since I'm thinking of what I should really do, I really rather do thing once than twice. And time is very very important to me, although I wouldn't say my time is worth more than money.

A manual transmission will happen between Feb-April, it must be done for May, not surre which yet, either T56/T5/M90. After that I want to do engine management, but I honestly don't know wiring and tunning, yes I read some of it and I'm just not good at it, I'm a physics guy, not electrical. Basically I'm considering get a Haltech E6 series installed on my car, even know the price range is in the $3k, but I have a very reputable shop (Magnus if you know DSM) for tuning, compare to MS'n'S which I have no idea who can tune it for me here locally, at the same time, that's $3k, money doesn't fall out of my ass for me.

What do you guys think? I also want the ability to control nitrous, as I'm going to build direct port system with either stock manifold or a custom one (I'm a ricer..... eat me). And the extreme reliability.

medfurd
08-09-2005, 11:11 PM
Well the MS is doable yourself, and that's what I'd do, but it seems like $3k wouldn't really set you back, so go ahead with the Haltech if you want. MS can control nitrous, but requires some fiddling with the "extra" firmware and you'll have to open the case.

If you can do sterio installs, you can physically install Megasquirt yourself, no problem. A wee bit of fabbing is necessary to stick the sensors where they go. You can tune Megasquirt yourself, that's kind of the point, and it feels very rewarding to do as much as you can yourself. Just remember that if you have a shop tune for you, even if they are cool and have a dyno, it will mean they have lots of seat time driving your car, so there's that to think about. (I assume, but maybe they'd let you drive if you really wanted too.)

Tranny-wise, it depends. You'll need to list what your wishes and parameters are, as well as budget and time contraints. M90 would be cool if you can get your hands on one, if you want it done in February you better start looking soon. T5 has been done on 740s, even Canadian ones like Boris', and has good aftermarket support for upgrades. Kenny has told me that they aren't exactly butter smooth like, saaay, an S200 6spd., but get the job done well. I've also heard tell that T56s are heavy and that 6th gear is really more of a tall add-on. The T56 is definitely search worthy. If you're going to be doing more drift events, M90 or T5 would be preferable.

Good luck

thelostartof
08-09-2005, 11:22 PM
MS can control nitrous

and you can tune it yourself .. its a lot easier than you think the wiring is the hard part. there are more thane nough people here willing to give out maps and tips on how to setup MS right


and to go to MS on a 90 + car you need a lh 2.2 dizzy w/ teh hall sensor(unless you have the new MS code w/ rpm sensor support)

Forg
08-10-2005, 03:28 AM
A few points, which you've probably already thought of but I'll repeat 'em anyway:

* The basics of tuning with any ECU are very much the same; someone reputable should be able to tune any reputable ECU. Have you checked with the aforementioned Magnus whether or not they'll do the MSnS for you? Even if it's an extra day on the dyno for them to get it right, it may pay off.

* Is the $3k for the Haltech including stuff you'd have to buy for MSnS anyway? Is a used Haltech worth a lot? Would you modify such that you could restore the factory ECU & sell the Haltech separately?

* Are used Delco ECU's cheaper over there than here? I guess you've thought of the commercial alternatives, but the latest Delco ECU's are supposed to be pretty advanced & allegedly editable; if it's financially viable for you (starting from scratch, the MoTeC was cheaper for me - but you already have a loom & sensors whereas I didn't).

Chigga 744SE
08-10-2005, 08:25 AM
I don't care about re-sell value, I've been considering SDS, Motec, AEM, Haltech, HKS F-Con V pro.

what about wiring? I seriously hate all the ugly wires in the engine bay, I really want to re-wire the whole engine bay and hide as much wiring as possible. I read the guide on the ms'n's part, and it sounds to me basically you just splice the harness up and hook it up to the one Kenny made. As ricey as it soudns nitrous control is kinda important to me, but if it proves to be not worth the effort, I'll just run one of the ZEX's kit with module, but since in the guide Kenny mention about the 2nd bankn injector control, you guys think I could use that to control the nitrous/fuel ratio for a direct port system? I know it sounds weird, but I think that'd be kinda cool, and I gussed they can't do sequential injection eh? that'd be really cool to do.

tranny I just want it to last, I don't drive like a idiot, but I do want very reliable 13s on street and 12s on slicks performance. I've got a good lead for a M90 locally, and it seems a straight swap, no fabs, so that'll save time.

Forg
08-10-2005, 08:55 AM
I didn't keep the reply (because it was in the Too Hard Basket for me; could've fitted a Getrag Supra 6spd for less), but I did ask recently about the M90 of a guy in Scandinavia. Now, you do apparently need the thicker dual-mass flywheel off the late 940 (which was probably not sold in the USA & allegedly costs HEAPS to order from Volvo), because the shaft stickin' out of the front of the M90 is shorter to accomodate the thicker flywheel+clutch setup.

As I said above, I could've had a V161 Supra 6spd fitted for less money! :) But then it sounds like you've got a good price on the 'box itself, which looks to be about US$1k (in Norway I think it was) unless you're willing to wait for a bargain to appear.

Sequential injection will probably get you an extra few % power, and help you with pollution as well (if that's an issue).

Is it a known that the M90 will take the sort of torque you need to run 12's in a 740? As an example, people around here will tell you that the stock diff won't handle the torque, yet it was a "given" a few years ago that you could run 11's on the stock diff without hurting it. I s'pose it'd be nice to be sure that it's not just urban myth that the M90 will last (eg. it's not the result of some Swedish dude with a 650hp B230 having thrown $5k at strengthening the M90, so everyone assumes the stock box is fine).

Hiding wiring "a bit" is relatively easy, but you need patience. Completely hiding it requires a touch of insanity; you have to drill lots of holes & fit lots of grommets, then run the loom in places like the insides of the guards (fenders). For the sake of reliability & maintenance, I think that just hiding it in the engine bay is nice enough; routing it all within flexible conduit is a start I guess.

olov
08-10-2005, 09:33 AM
ms and a wbo2 go hand in hand. you won't make half the power you think you are without that. from what i've learned at SE, basically you get plenty of fuel, and then pull as much timing as you can. with all the other "right" mods it will go into the 13's. other systems might have some cool "ricey" features, but msNs is more than capable. any shop that knows how to tune one system can tune megasquirt, and there might be some non-volvo megasquirt guys off msefi.com in your area that would be glad to help push 300hp out of a volvo.

i'd get the m90 if i were in a 700 just because of the shifter placement of a t5. my camaro has a t56, i loved it to death although others complained about crappy 2-3 shifts(i never missed it :e-shrug: ) but it is also HUGE for our cars from what i hear.

wiring? as clean as you make it. maybe get some vw guys to smooth out your bay :-P. but really, i saw an early 80's 240 last weekend with megasquirt and it looked better than factory. so go nuts

just like anyone with megasquirt hooked up properly will say, "after megasquirt i'll never go back to LH"

Chigga 744SE
08-10-2005, 09:39 AM
yea, I'm a tree hugger, I've actually consider to buy a CPO used Prius.

I know that Peter is running SDS in his 740 race car, and Kenny is almost putting out 400hp at the crank with his set up. So please teach the noob here, from what I've seen, say you set certain perimeter like how much fuel at every 200rpm or so, do the ecu (ms'n's and others) automatically calculate the fuel curve in that 200rpm gap? if so, what kind of relationship it is? a linear? exponential? and why does 3d mapping is more prefer? Also is it possible that the ecu can automatically adjust the map when altitude/temperature/humidity change?

as far as the stock axle, many have told me they are fine as long you don't go crazy beating on 'em, and change the differential fluid. There's one 740 here use a stock axle along with a TH400R tranny & a 350 on 200 shots, from others I've learned that the torque arm seems to be the weakest link. Hopefully I'll find out soon.

Chigga 744SE
08-10-2005, 09:41 AM
just like anyone with megasquirt hooked up properly will say, "after megasquirt i'll never go back to LH"

not dissing ms'n's, but have anyone say "after haltech/motec/sds/aem/all the management system, I'll never go back to ms'n's"??? has anyone compare it to other system in all places except cost?

olov
08-10-2005, 09:47 AM
ms tunning, you can start from scratch, or you can gank some maps to get you running, if you want ms to tune it for you, have you read through this? http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=47256
i haven't really, but it sounds like it might do what you want it to

olov
08-10-2005, 09:49 AM
not dissing ms'n's, but have anyone say "after haltech/motec/sds/aem/all the management system, I'll never go back to ms'n's"??? has anyone compare it to other system in all places except cost?
there can only be one winner, so which one is it? i'm not willing to waste time/money to figure it out. ms is good enough for more than a stock volvo motor can throw at it i do know that

Chigga 744SE
08-10-2005, 10:14 AM
so correct me if I"m wrong.

the ms'n's will adjust based on the o2 sensor reading? I was under the impression where ms'n's is a closed system without the o2 sensor.

olov
08-10-2005, 10:59 AM
no idea, but what that link was talking about made me think it could adjust for _______. if not, oh well

medfurd
08-10-2005, 12:12 PM
so correct me if I"m wrong.

the ms'n's will adjust based on the o2 sensor reading? I was under the impression where ms'n's is a closed system without the o2 sensor.

Of course, that's why the wideband is so important. There are perameters for when MS is closed loop and open loop, and it also uses the sensor for EGO correction. Some people like to run full open loop most of the time, just using what they see on the AFR gauge to tune by hand. See Pin 23: http://www.msefi.com/msinfo/manual/extwir.gif

Hank Scorpio
08-10-2005, 12:23 PM
I think anyone on this forum buying EMS other than MS is simply buying for name sake.

MS will do what everyone here wants for the bare min of investment. Trust (us) me Sam ;)

The rest are like wanting a T56 on a redblock. You really have NO use for a .8 5th and .6 6th gear.. ect ect.

Do what works, make your money stretch MUCH MUCH further. + AEM wont really care bout you that much... not like the guys who have been here done that on MS.

benflynn
08-10-2005, 12:24 PM
yes msns will do EGO correction..you are a physics guy that cant hook up the megasquirt? you sound like the cats in class that can cal3 but cant change their oil...megasquirt should be used as a training tool to learn the ins and outs of EFI..if you want to learn do ms..if you would like a 3ft wing on your ride waste 3k...dont forget that ms is always in devolpment...you never know the options that will come out

Chigga 744SE
08-10-2005, 12:33 PM
so has anyone use the 2nd bank of injector control to control fuel for nitrous out of curiousity.

and can someone give me rough explanation what happens in this say you set certain perimeter like how much fuel at every 200rpm or so, do the ecu (ms'n's and others) automatically calculate the fuel curve in that 200rpm gap?

and if I want to use coil packs instead, what do I do?

and yea, I'm the odd ball, I swap my suspensioni and yali yada, but I get Phil to change my oil.hahahhahaha

benflynn
08-10-2005, 03:29 PM
you can use the second fuel table when in nitrous..how about you install megtune and look around

adrianpike
08-10-2005, 03:36 PM
so has anyone use the 2nd bank of injector control to control fuel for nitrous out of curiousity.

and if I want to use coil packs instead, what do I do?

and yea, I'm the odd ball, I swap my suspensioni and yali yada, but I get Phil to change my oil.hahahhahaha

All your q's are answered on megasquirt.info and in the msns-extra documentation (http://megasquirt.sourceforge.net/extra/), just for future reference.

For coil packs, you use msns-extra and EDIS (http://megasquirt.sourceforge.net/extra/edis-whatyouneed.html) stuff. You'll need to fab a trigger wheel.

It interpolates between map points in a linear fashion.

swedefiend
08-11-2005, 10:50 AM
I think anyone on this forum buying EMS other than MS is simply buying for name sake.

ding ding ding

We have the correct answer...

Kevin Hawkinson
08-12-2005, 06:28 AM
You can also use the stock LH2.4 crank angle sensor and a regular 4-cylinder coil pack, like DSM for example.
I don't know much about electronics (other than what I learned in Physics 203) but I can solder and read a schematic. Those are all the qualifications I need to convert a turbo MR2 from Electromotive to MSnS.

Chigga 744SE
08-16-2005, 08:17 AM
what about its self adjustability?

like if I wrote a map for now, and say winter comes and I feel like taking my car out at 0 degrees outside, or even take the car to Rocky Mountains at 2000ft, will it be able to compensate the difference? or I'll have to write a map? and what exactly do I put into the map?

Boosted2003
08-16-2005, 08:24 AM
I think anyone on this forum buying EMS other than MS is simply buying for name sake.

MS will do what everyone here wants for the bare min of investment. Trust (us) me Sam ;)

The rest are like wanting a T56 on a redblock. You really have NO use for a .8 5th and .6 6th gear.. ect ect.

Do what works, make your money stretch MUCH MUCH further. + AEM wont really care bout you that much... not like the guys who have been here done that on MS.

Yeah, you would need like 4.10 or maybe even 4.56 to use that 6th gear on the freeway.

swedefiend
08-16-2005, 08:34 AM
what about its self adjustability?

None of the other units are "self adjustable" AFAIK. As a matter of fact, neither is LH. It simply has more "maps" to choose from and loads them accordingly. With any aftermarket EFI, you will have to do the same (unless it is a chip)

Chigga 744SE
08-16-2005, 08:48 AM
I thought LH basically programs itself with certain formulas and calculates it.

but what exactly am I putting into the map? just how much fuel to put in at which rpm and the pressure in the manifold??

blkaplan
08-16-2005, 08:48 AM
megasquirt has temperature correction, that it tweaks the map with.

if your time is very valuable, good preparation will make the megasquirt go quickly and smoothly, make a harness before you do your car, spend the money and buy the bosch electrical connectors so you can retain the factory connectors and eliminate cheesy wire splices, make sure you have all your tps brackets and bungs done before you start the install,

if you plan it right it should be close to plug and play

Chigga 744SE
08-16-2005, 09:03 AM
not like valuable valuable, its not like if I decided to take few days to do ms'n's I'll lost $10k or something, but I'm going to school, working at an engineering firm part time, and lack of electronics knowledge. Just prefer to know what exactly I'm doing before I start, there's a saying, never walk into a room if you don't know how to walk out of there alive.

so about the bosch plugs, do you mean I buy those plugs that will hook up to the stock harness that goes into the stock ecu? but instead it'll hook up the the megasquirt?

kyle242gt
08-16-2005, 12:37 PM
where's that smilie... well, this is close enough http://www.p0stwh0res.com/smf/Smileys/default/troutslap1.gif
Just do it already, there's nothing to it.

The bosch plugs are the ones that plug into the TPS, injectors, CLT. If you're going to splice into your existing harness, you won't need them, except maybe the TPS; From working on Toby's car, the TPS wiring doesn't go all the way into the car - one wire terminates at the firewall. Hit him (Infector944) up on PM, he's wound tight enough he'll probably know exactly what you're talking about.

Adjustability - Depending on your ambient temp changes, you may need to tweak it. But trust me you'll get so good at tuning it, you won't mind. A wideband and Jay's VexME program take 99% of the work out of getting a good tune. And realtime WB adjustments might very well fix any ambient temp related leanness/richness anyway. Besides, all we're really talking about is running .5 leaner or richer, it's not going to leave you stranded, and if you decide not to adjust it, everything will still be okay.

Some folks tend to jump in too fast without reading instructions, I think we all know who I'm talking about... but others can make the mistake of thinking too long and too hard about a project. :badboy: