MSnS or Haltech

[str8krewzn]

This has probly been talked about
but which would be best to get
for a turbo 95 b230ft in a 740?

Thanks

[medfurd]

What for? What mods do you have, what goals do you have in mind? That said, you don't need anything more than MS, and it's the cheapest option.

[str8krewzn]

Well
t3/t4
Race headers
getrag trans
Sten Parner racing head
95 b230ft BUILT
BIG injecters still choosing

[Captain Bondo]

exactly.
Mods? Budget? What version of haltech? Budget? Budget? Goals? Mods?

IMO a properly set up megasquirt with edis is good for 90% of folk building 4 bangers. And I would not choose something like an E6X over megasquirt under any circumstances. The E11 gives me serious wood, but it's overkill for a 4 banger that's doing under 7000rpm and 400hp. Beyond that point things get hairy enough that more control might be worthwhile.

But if you just won the lottery and have money floating around, or you are looking specifically for something that runs as close as possible to as smoothly as OEM , or you want 400hp+ (yeah yeah I know ms will do that, but you could almost replace all your wrenches with a crescent wrench too), or all of those, then an E11 (or actually an E8 would be fine- same feature as e11 but less fuel and spark outputs so it's cheaper) would be great.

But figure on 200-400 for megasquirt depending on what you do, plus 100-200 for tuning.
figure 1300-1800 for haltech plus 200-300 for tuning. So it's a big jump.

[PetesDustyVolvo]

*snip* sorry, i guess my 2 cents are off topic but nothing can be done about that now

oh yes there's something that can be done...

[2muchboost4u]

i am running haltech. it is easy to tune, very visual. i know alot of people that have megasquirt but have some problems with tuning it because they dont know how to, even with a wideband, i guess the program is hard to get used to or something. but im sure with some time it would be easy to learn the program. in my opinion, i think that the haltech is worth the extra money... both are great, just like the haltech more, just my 2 cents.

[ZVOLV]

IMO a properly set up megasquirt with edis is good for 90% of folk building 4 bangers. And I would not choose something like an E6X over megasquirt under any circumstances.

Why would you chose MS over Haltech E6X?

I plan buying standalone eventually and am really considering Haltech. Seems a lot easier to tune than MS.

[ashvolvo]

i am running haltech. it is easy to tune, very visual. i know alot of people that have megasquirt but have some problems with tuning it because they dont know how to, even with a wideband, i guess the program is hard to get used to or something. but im sure with some time it would be easy to learn the program. in my opinion, i think that the haltech is worth the extra money... both are great, just like the haltech more, just my 2 cents.

I'm also seriously considering the haltech route.
Did you do your own install?

[Forg]

Kinda depends on where you are as well; and how much it costs to get hold of parts.
You need to work out everything that you need to get your hands on when doing an ECU conversion, and then decide. I started from a point where I had nothing at all apart from a K-Jet harness; if I'd have gone MS instead of MoTeC I would've saved myself about AU$400 (out of a total of probably AU$10k for the entire engine+electronics). For a difference of AU$400, the known brand, without my own bodgy "electronics welding", was definitely a better choice. :)

[medfurd]

Why would you chose MS over Haltech E6X?

I plan buying standalone eventually and am really considering Haltech. Seems a lot easier to tune than MS.

How does it "seem" like that? Tuning is easy, it's the software/firmware compatibility issues that will drive you insane if you accidentally get mixed up.

[Captain Bondo]

New the E8 is only a few hundred dollars more than an E6X, and it a way better system. I just think someone considering and E6X might be better off shelling out a tiny bit more for an E8

HOWEVER, don't get me wrong, the E6X is still a nicer system, I'm just not certain it's *enough* nicer for the price. Although you can get used ones for about 500-600 bucks these days, so if you could get a used one actually, go for it. But MSnEDIS with the 12x12 maps would be really close to as good, and cheaper. At that stage the Haltech's major advantage would be the interface.

So, to be more accurate, a used E6x would be great, but in terms of buying new the E8 is a little more buck and a lot more bang, and the MS is a little less bang and a lot less buck. If that makes sense. :rofl:

Edit: To anyone questioning Haltech being easier to tune. Do this:
Download megatune.
Download halwin from the Haltech website.

Just spend 20 minutes browsing through the menus and etc for each. It is night and day.
Haltech's software setup is killer.

[linuxman51]

I would hope haltech's software would be, but then they'dve had to have come a long way since the version I saw, it was horribe (dos based baby, gimmie some more o dat).

works great on my car (obviously), and tuning certain things can be tedious, but I suspect its the same way with all ems's (certain aspects of warmup, etc).
a lot of people dont bother to really really fine tune things, esp if a problem only manifests itself once in a while, so thats something to consider as well.. I've gotten picky lately so ive been spending more time on the mundane details involved in perfect warmup driving than anything else.


oh and 300 miles on 12 gallons with a 300hp volvo doesnt hurt either.

[socalsean]

Kinda depends on where you are as well; and how much it costs to get hold of parts.
You need to work out everything that you need to get your hands on when doing an ECU conversion, and then decide. I started from a point where I had nothing at all apart from a K-Jet harness; if I'd have gone MS instead of MoTeC I would've saved myself about AU$400 (out of a total of probably AU$10k for the entire engine+electronics). For a difference of AU$400, the known brand, without my own bodgy "electronics welding", was definitely a better choice. :)

care to explain how you would have only saved 400AU?

sean

[Morley]

See sig.

12x12 maps? I'm almost laughing...My 12 year old plain E6 has 20x32...

[benflynn]

go ahead and laugh...it still works great and cost less than tuition...is your old system still under devlopment?ask this same question in a year and i bet we will have more converts

[ZVOLV]

The thing I dont like about MS is that you gotta do odd things like add inline resitors, solder, and things like that.

With something like haltech you can just get the proper sensors and wire em in. No resistors in the signal wires or anything like that. It also says the software uses bar graphs that you just click and drag to manipulate. No numerical input.

Another reason it would be beneficial to go with Haltech is you can take it to almost any dyno tuner and they will know what to do. If you go MS, certain dyno tuners probably wont even touch your car.

[Morley]

OMG you guys really don't like critic do you? Get down to earth for fcks sake, I'm not saying Haltech is the only solution, but neither is MS. On a cost vs. options rate, a used Haltech wins.

Apples to oranges.

[linuxman51]

The thing I dont like about MS is that you gotta do odd things like add inline resitors, solder, and things like that.

I'm not so sure I would count on that, a lot of them require special sensors that you get to fabricate to get to work, be it a trigger wheel or something else along those lines.

And there's nothing odd about an external signal modifier, in all your playing around with lh I'm fairly supprised you havent messed with them



With something like haltech you can just get the proper sensors and wire em in. No resistors in the signal wires or anything like that. It also says the software uses bar graphs that you just click and drag to manipulate. No numerical input.


So shift up and shift down is too difficult? maybe you should be working a french fry machine somewhere instead....

[linuxman51]

OMG you guys really don't like critic do you? Get down to earth for fcks sake, I'm not saying Haltech is the only solution, but neither is MS. On a cost vs. options rate, a used Haltech wins.

Apples to oranges.


not really, $200 for a used megasquirt vs $5-600 for an old haltech? go check the current list of features against each other..


you are right about apples to oranges....

[Captain Bondo]

"I'm not so sure I would count on that, a lot of them require special sensors that you get to fabricate to get to work, be it a trigger wheel or something else along those lines."

Haltech actually has the best factory sensor support out there right now. Works directly with motronic 60-2 and cam sync and a ton of other configs. All of the signal conditioners and etc for vr and everything are built in. You tell it what wheel and what sensor, and it does it. The kit comes with AIT and ECT sensors and calibration maps that are factory calibrated. Compensation for AIT heat soak and 3d load/temp/enrichment, better software, better closed loop, more cels with adjustable load points. Dual maps so you can have one for 92 octane and one for 116? And you can switch maps with a toggle switch? Interpolation is great, but 12x12 fixed vs 20x32 variable is no comparison. On and on and on.
For an extra 300 bucks? I'd take it.

MS is great, and a system is only as good as the tuning, so for someone with a pretty stockish drivetrain that wants something that can set up to be decent with the flexibilty of being adjustable, MS it the sh*t. Not trying to flame on MS at all, but I remember any decent mainstream ems was 2 grand when evenryone started doing MS, so it was the greatest thing. But in the few years that we have all had our eyes fixed pretty squarely on MS, the mainstream technology has evolved and gotten more affordable, as it always does.

MS will also continue to evolve, we're just at a point in time where it is a tiny bit behind imo. It's still a great basic system for a lot of people.

[Hank Scorpio]

Man I must be out of date because I thought MS was painfully SIMPLE. I suck at computers to boot.

The software Im using on my T5R is much more complicated.

[Hank Scorpio]

btw str8kruzin you have pictures of anything or are we going to just keep feeding the bench racing fire for the next 20 years?

[Captain Bondo]

MS is definitely very simple, and Haltech is definitely more complex, and ease of use can be somewhat subjective, but the Haltech interface is one of the cleanest imo.

[str8krewzn]

I asked witch EMS to use
you wanna see pixz of me thinkin which to get :???: <there it is
;-)

[Captain Bondo]

OK that was funny. This mental image of a regular dude with this little smiley-head, squinting at a computer monitor. :rofl: :thumbsup:

[Forg]

care to explain how you would have only saved 400AU?
No problemo!
I had no wiring harness or injectors or anything to use anyway; I was going to have to buy everything. So initial purchase price was really the only issue, putting aside the issues of finding someone who could tune a MSnS (I'm assuming I could've found someone).
Used MoTeC was AU$700, it was going to be an absolute minimum of AU$300 to get a MSnS. Even the issue of "used" vs "new" isn't really there, because a DIY brand-spankers MSnS was unlikely to be as reliable as a used MoTeC. OK, truth be known the MoTeC was going to be less likely to need "fiddling" with resistors etc in order to use sensors on the engine, but I didn't even look into those sorts of things.
Actually, one issue which I imagine is irrelevant these days is that high-current injectors used to have a better spray-pattern, and faster open/close times, than low-current ones. I dunno if the MSnS can operate high-current injectors; and with newer technology you can probably get low-current injectors that open & close just as quickly. Another "old issue" is fuel-curve interpolation ... once upon a time only the better ECU's interpolated quadratic fuel & ignition curves between load points, but surely even MSnS uses best-fit quadratics & not straight line (well, 'planes' I guess, being 3D ECU's).

[Unregistered]

Forg makes a good point. I have had reliablilty issues with my megasquirt because of the way it was built and installed. If you're a hardcore do-it-yourselfer and want to learn how this stuff works go with megasquirt. I'm leaning more toward a prebuilt and tested system for my future project. SDS looks like a great next step up from megasquirt. It's not way overpriced like other kits and has similar features. A well tuned MS'ed car vs a well tuned Haltech/SDS/Motec car (given the same engine & mods)??? You won't notice a difference. They all do the same thing in the right hands.

[Captain Bondo]

Umm... actually, you can bet your ASS you will notice the difference between sequential injection and batch fire- especially on a high powered turbo car with large injectors. That is total :bs:
No difference. Geez. I've ridden in cars with AEM and directly compared sequential (proper sequential where you get to set the injection timing) and batch. You can switch it on and off with the software. Even with the same (dyno-set) tuning on the same system on the same motor, you notice a huge difference.

And if you're going to talk out of your ass you could at least register.

[Forg]

MegaSquirt isn't batch-fire is it?

[Captain Bondo]

As far as I know it only has 2 injector drivers. Could be wrong.

[benflynn]

my thoughts(no real exp.) would be that the seq. injection would only make a lot of differance at low rpms..but maybe if your injectors never get into high dutycycles..

[The Aspirator]

As of 1.5 years ago when I first installed it, it only had two injector drivers. I would NOT be suprised if it's somehow got more now, or if MSII or the V3 board has more drivers. So Ken, what kind of differences can be felt between the two? My car has always been set to "alternating" instead of batch fire, and with alternating you can set how many injections per engine cycle you get (but I don't quite understand how to set that so mines just at 2, seems to work. But what does it mean?). I think I've got 1/4 and 2/3 injectors grouped together in my wiring harness.

[Forg]

my thoughts(no real exp.) would be that the seq. injection would only make a lot of differance at low rpms
Well, not necessarily low RPM's, but definitely low load ... which means it should be able to affect driveability.
However, I don't think it's that much of an issue; probably a small difference in highway fuel efficiency. You can always use rising-rate fuel-pressure regs, etc, to get 'round the problem should it arise.

[Captain Bondo]

Major difference is idle and low load (low injector pulsewidth, and low velocity and poor atomization). At high rpm there definitely isn't much difference.
throttle response off idle and off cruise and low rpm torque were way better. the most noticeable thing was the car would take off way better from low rpm without having to gear down.

The effects are actually similar to tight squish- a better homogenized mixture thanks to a properly timed injection event means a faster, more complete burn and better overall efficiency. It's a big difference. I never even realized MS didn't do sequential until Matt D mentioned it- made me do a major "wtf?".

[ZVOLV]

And I admit that I dont know much about MS, but it seems like you have to do a LOT of tweaking to make it work right. It seems like a lot of people are running it, but I dont see much happening with it.


I also want to reiterate my point that almost any dyno tuner is going to know what to do with Haltech. If you bring a guy MS he might just tell you to go away. Or, "Rate is 100$ an hour. I dont know this Megasquirt jazz, so it's gonna take me more time to figure it out." And expect to pay an extra hour or two.

[Forg]

Hmm ... the one thing my old ECU doesn't have, which newer ones do, is sequential injection built-in. It was available as another module, which I don't have. I may have to do something about that, if it turns out too doughy down low.

[Captain Bondo]

Forg,
running an RRFPR to try to help with pulsewidths will greate more tuning problems than it will solve especially with MS. The only way to have maps that make sense under boost is if the fuel flow stay constant for a given pulsewidth. Changing the fuel pressure dynamically will do all kinds of weird things to your maps. besides, a good rrfpr is a few hundred bucks isn't it? Why nickel and dime yourself by putting bandaids on top of bandaids?

edit: so you have an old haltech? what model? there may be a firmware upgrade. :-D

And agreed guidom, just another small example of the nickel and dime scenario.

[Forg]

Nah, it's an old MoTeC ... definitely no firmware upgrades available, because it's hardware that I'm missing. The connector's actually the same as a current-model MoTeC though, only a couple of connectors need swapping (the injectors all have their own wires from the ECU even though they fire at once) ... it'd be a case of money rather than time to fit a newer one that'll run fully sequential (and will control boost ... I ran out of inputs/outputs with the need to run idle air control).
It idles perfectly at the moment, though; if that's any indicator.

[benflynn]

if your 100$ an hour tuner can,t figure out ms then he(or she) should be fired, ms dosn't take a lot of tweaking to get to work..and as far as tuning goes use vexme to get the afr's and tune spark on the dyno...if i were rich motec would be the sh1t...but IIRC you have to buy codes to unlock features on them while (as i already said) ms is constantly being developed..and half the fun is the learning :) and are they not all rrfpr on the turbos or do you mean an ajustable rrfpr

[Captain Bondo]

None of them are rising rate stock. the bosch FPR's that 99% of us use are 1:1 in vaccuum and boost. RRFPR means a reg that is not 1:1.With a 1:1 FPR fuel pressure is compensated in direct proportion to manifold pressure, as it should be if you want a VE curve that makes any kind of sense. An RRFPR increases fuel pressure at a "rising rate", meaning the fuel pressure increases at a greater rate than manifold pressure. I have no clue wether motec has locked features, or what. We were originally talking about haltech which does not.
Haltech releases pretty continual free firmware updates as well, interestingly enough.

Again I'm not bagging on MS, just trying to balance a heavily biased audience. ;-)

[Forg]

MoTeC releases firmware upgrades as well; it's just that my box is too old for that to be relevant at this point. Plus it's more of an issue with the newer computers, which are more 'open architecture'; they're almost configured to have X interface-wires, and what you use those wires for depends on how you set up the ECU (eg. it's almost as though your mate's ECU could be configured for terminals #22 & #23 to be injector drivers, yet yours can be set up for those wires to be a temp-sender input ... OK, I imagine there are defaults for those particular things, but hopefully my meaning is at least moderately clear :)).

I didn't have a fuel-pressure reg at all, and a new RRFPR was AU$150 at a time when that was roughly US$75. RRFPR's are usually used for the purposes of bodging-up a system (eg. using the LH-Jet computer in some way), but I wanted a margin of safety.

MoTeC does lock features as a part of their marketing approach. Back when my ECU was made, if you wanted the 'gold box' you had to pay for everything; now you can get the top ECU without paying for every possible input & output - well, that's the way it's sold. The reality is that you know your ECU can do everything but you can't get to it all; I guess what it means is that some people pay less than it would cost if everything was enabled, and others pay more. "User pays". Your average redblock can't really use variable cam timing, and you wouldn't use 16 separate injectors too often. :)

[Mueller]

And I admit that I dont know much about MS, but it seems like you have to do a LOT of tweaking to make it work right. It seems like a lot of people are running it, but I dont see much happening with it.


I also want to reiterate my point that almost any dyno tuner is going to know what to do with Haltech. If you bring a guy MS he might just tell you to go away. Or, "Rate is 100$ an hour. I dont know this Megasquirt jazz, so it's gonna take me more time to figure it out." And expect to pay an extra hour or two.

diggin up an old thread :)

I just installed a LINK Ecu on another car, previously I had an MS (I spilled coffee on the megasquirt, never quite worked the same afterwards, hahahha)..I also have an older Haltech E6....

The MS is almost too easy (not quite fool proof), in fact I had fits with my LINK due to the MS being so darn simple to setup and configure. If you look at the interface of the MS, the programmers basicly "borrowed" from many other Programmable Fuel injection systems out there. The basics of tuning with the software is pretty much the same from system to system...any dyno person should be able to figure out the basics of the software in about 20 minutes.

As for picking between a Haltech or an MS?
If the budget can take it, the Haltech wins hands down, who wouldn't want factory support with a real warrenty?!?!? Sure you can buy a prebuilt MS, but most of the builders are hobby type guys, they can croak or just decide to quit the business, and then what?

With my current budget, or lack of, I'm probebly going to go with the MS unless I could scrap up the extra money for a new Haltech or another LINK for my 242 T+

And to the person that dissed Haltech for DOS, MoTec just recently started offering WDoz with thier systems, so there are alot of $3000 Motecs running DOS so it cannot be that bad :)

[2muchboost4u]

i have had haltech in my car for a while now, from the first day i put it in, i havent had a single problem with it. put it in, about 5 mins of messin with, and the car started up. about the dos software, the old ones are like that because they are proven and dont have any bugs, the new ones are very nice with the windows software. both msns and haltech are good choices, i just think that the msns system has alot more tweaking with, and is a little harder to get used to. i spent the extra money and got haltech, and dont regret a penny, especially with all the questions and problems with msns

[benflynn]

no questions, no problems with ms

[Mueller]

i have had haltech in my car for a while now, from the first day i put it in, i havent had a single problem with it. put it in, about 5 mins of messin with, and the car started up. about the dos software, the old ones are like that because they are proven and dont have any bugs, the new ones are very nice with the windows software. both msns and haltech are good choices, i just think that the msns system has alot more tweaking with, and is a little harder to get used to. i spent the extra money and got haltech, and dont regret a penny, especially with all the questions and problems with msns

In defense of MS, 99% of the problems are owner induced, either building the MS/wiring harness incorrectly or sloppy.

As to most of the questions asked...I'd say its due to the MS builder/installer failing to spend the time reading and searching the msefi/yahoo forums or not even reading the MS manual at all.

Of course with all the MS installs on the Volvos, I sorta understand why for some it's just easier to say "how did you do this or can I copy your MAPs"

People still screwup with installs of megabuck systems, it's just you don't hear about them as much since the manufacture support is a phone call or e-mail away.

I'm a fan of most of the FI systems....

[Captain Bondo]

diggin up an old thread
And to the person that dissed Haltech for DOS, MoTec just recently started offering WDoz with thier systems, so there are alot of $3000 Motecs running DOS so it cannot be that bad :)

Not many folks even use the dos software any more. HalWin is insanely good and very stable.

[linuxman51]

there is no spoon..

[2muchboost4u]

In defense of MS, 99% of the problems are owner induced, either building the MS/wiring harness incorrectly or sloppy.

As to most of the questions asked...I'd say its due to the MS builder/installer failing to spend the time reading and searching the msefi/yahoo forums or not even reading the MS manual at all.

Of course with all the MS installs on the Volvos, I sorta understand why for some it's just easier to say "how did you do this or can I copy your MAPs"

People still screwup with installs of megabuck systems, it's just you don't hear about them as much since the manufacture support is a phone call or e-mail away.

I'm a fan of most of the FI systems....



your right, it is usually the person installing it. i have seen alot of people put ms into cars but they dont read anything about it. they "download a map" and think it is good. im still happy with my haltech, easy to use with alot of features

[foggyjames]

May I bump this? It seems to me that the apples and oranges thing is spot-on.

I spent a whole evening looking into MS. I learned relatively little (except that it didn't do sequential...now I'm leaving carbs behind, so I'd like to leave ghetto right at the door thanks...!), and my head hurt a LOT. The single biggest thing I learned was that I'd have to immerse myself in the subject for a number of weeks to figure it out properly. That's probably part of the fun for most people.

I spent 30 minutes looking into Haltech when Morley pointed out that there was an E6K on eBay for pretty cheap (albeit from a seriously dodgy seller). The documentation was concise, clear, told me what I wanted to know, and my head didn't hurt at all.

If finding out what features MS has is that hard, how hard will making it work be (without taking a LOT of time to study it)? This is a big worry. It strikes me that the MS community have a fantastic product on their hands, but they desperately need to improve the documentation, if it is truly going to be the direct rival for the 'commercial' systems that people talk it up to being.

Given that a) MS can't act as an adjustable EBC following a boost curve (as far as I'm aware....which Haltech can), and b) that it took me asking someone else to confirm that, while it says in black and white (and referenced in the index) in the Haltech manual...see if you can guess where my money would go if I was buying an EMS today?

Then again I'd imagine the average person tackling MS has a different list of priorities. Maybe I should just buy an S60R or something :-D

cheers

James

[The Aspirator]

MS can do boost control from a 6x6 map, quite nicely from what I hear. Kenny, Kyle, Matt and others on this board have been using it successfully for months now. I *believe* it can do sequential but I'm not positive. But yeah you're right, it's a LOT of learning and effort to get the most out of it. I don't know if they ever will truly compete with the big guys like Haltech because Megasquirt isn't really produced by a big company, it's two guys with thousands of followers helping out.

[PetesDustyVolvo]

Say what you will about research etc. What it came down to for me was: quality of the EMS, sensors, wiring, tuning and price. Maybe haltech is better? But you better bet the middle three are the same damn thing with different details. The price did it for me.

Note: I didnt read the rest of this thread. :nomex:

[impulse922]

Halwin for E11/E8 software features:
PC datalogging
Datalog graphical display
Numeric, 2D and 3D views for 3D maps
Online help system
Loading and Saving of maps
Firmware update ability

Base map library for popular engines

Wonder if the b230 is considered a popular engine?

[swedefiend]

haha, it is funny to read this thread.

It's really simple. I'll break it down for you.

Windows = Haltech
MSnS = Linux (pick your flavor)

If you like simple, powerful things with customer support and a nice shiny price tag, take windows, er I mean Haltech. If you like to customize everything as much as you can (as much as you understand) and have cross platform support (for free - or really cheap), then you pick Msns.

Simple see?

MSnS was never designed to satisfy the people looking for a Haltech unit. It was made for people like me who said "man I wish I could afford a programmable EFI, but I can't dish out much dough so that I can tweak the duty cycle and ignition advance."

If you wan't traction control/ boost control/ etc/ etc/ then go buy something that will do it. If you could program MSnS (with it's compiler) then you wouldn't be sitting around wondering which one is right for you :-P

[linuxman51]

Halwin for E11/E8 software features:
PC datalogging
Datalog graphical display
Numeric, 2D and 3D views for 3D maps
Online help system
Loading and Saving of maps
Firmware update ability

Base map library for popular engines

Wonder if the b230 is considered a popular engine?

b230 is probably more popular with the autronic crowd

[Forg]

Windows = Haltech
MSnS = Linux (pick your flavor)

If you like simple, powerful things with customer support and a nice shiny price tag, take windows, er I mean Haltech. If you like to customize everything as much as you can (as much as you understand) and have cross platform support (for free - or really cheap), then you pick Msns.
I actually find it pretty similar ... if you make the comparison around 5 to 10 years ago. My engine was too expensive to trust to Linux loaded up on an old Dell laptop I built myself out of scavenged parts.

Base map library for popular engines
Wonder if the b230 is considered a popular engine?
Hey, my B230 fired-up & idled happily on a program tuned for a DOHC mid 90's Golf GTi 1.8. :)

[dirtbike]

MS can do boost control from a 6x6 map, quite nicely from what I hear. Kenny, Kyle, Matt and others on this board have been using it successfully for months now...

Hi,
Are you sure that boost can be controlled with a 6x6 map? I know that it could be used to give you a fixed boost pressure open loop, ie 10psi through the whole rev range, but I thought that there was a problem with the logic running closed loop.

The reason I've chimed in is because I gave James the impression that it couldn't do it.

My advice to Foggy is buy a pre built squirt and run it in fuel only mode to get a handle on how to tune and use, then simply move to MSnS and play with that and when you've got the hang of this and you decide exactly what addition features you want/could make use of THEN look at the big boys ECU's to work out if you can justify the expense to give you a few marginal extras.

Hell if you can live with carbs you can definatley live with MS in any flavour(MS, MSnS, MSnEDIS etc...)

The Link system that muller mentioned floats my boat at the moment, that has a great User Interface and the up coming G3 edition looks to blow most of the big boys out of the water for a fraction of the cost.

Laters
Nick

[stylngle2003]

LINK is what Three Fat Tigers has on his Miata, and it's looking like that's going to be what I do when/if I turbo my miata. the brick is getting msns for now

[acbarnett]

the next big hurdle for me with the six is saving up the $2000 for an E11v2. The thing that turns me off of MS is the lack of "plug and play"-ability that haltech and the other nicer standalones have.

If I was working on a side project I-4 car I'd use MS in a heartbeat, but the "down time" that people seem to have getting MS to work doesen't make it attractive to me for a daily driver car.

Even then the relatively cheap cost of a used e6 is really tempting. Don't get me wrong, a MS car would be a great EE-type project, but I'm not sure if that extra ~$200-300 saved is worth it to me at least...

[dbh86]

plug n play?

you sure?

last time i talked to haltech, either i had to get someplace install it or i would have to install it with an unterminated wiring harness

[acbarnett]

well, I meant easier to set up, easier to get from opening the box to starting the car up...

[stylngle2003]

i doubt if you will save that much time or effort installng haltech vs. ms. the only thing with haltech is chances are, in order to keep tech support, it has to be installed by a reccomended and certified installer, which will prolly cost 8 hours at $100 per hour

then there's the dyno time, which currently costs about $125 per hour. figure on a minimum of 4 hours to get the thing tuned nicely....$600 right ther at least

so there's ~$1400+2K for the damn box in the first place. sounds pretty pricey to me, when you can get MSnS installed yourself in about a weekend taking your time, tune it so it starts in an hour or two, make some changes by watching your wideband and get it to drive pretty well, then spend 4 hours on the dyno AND get a top of the line laptop, and still probably be out ahead of Haltech. msefi is a ridiculous resource, so i dont think you'll be lacking any online assistance.

don't get me wrong now, Haltech is nice...really nice. i just dont think the benefits of goiing to Haltech outweigh the costs incurred from doing so over going to MSnS. maybe it's just me, but at the same time, complaining about downtime that MS'ers experience is kinda null and void, since you'll have your engine out of the car in teh first place when you're doing the swap. that makes the ms install even easier to do...

[linuxman51]

the next big hurdle for me with the six is saving up the $2000 for an E11v2. The thing that turns me off of MS is the lack of "plug and play"-ability that haltech and the other nicer standalones have.

If I was working on a side project I-4 car I'd use MS in a heartbeat, but the "down time" that people seem to have getting MS to work doesen't make it attractive to me for a daily driver car.

Even then the relatively cheap cost of a used e6 is really tempting. Don't get me wrong, a MS car would be a great EE-type project, but I'm not sure if that extra ~$200-300 saved is worth it to me at least...

there is no plug and play for haltech. you can get a random 6 cyl map and hope that it works, but the same thing applies to megasquirt.
Fess up, you're afraid of the system because it doesnt have a big name and seems complicated.. Theres nothing "easy" about any engine management system, I dont care what anyone says. AEM is great, but its easily just as hard if not harder to tune than megasquirt. dont get me wrong, i think an e11v2 is badass, same with motec autronic, etc, but you're lying to yourself if you think its going to be easier. Its different, and doesnt suffer from "feature creep"

[The Aspirator]

Hi,
Are you sure that boost can be controlled with a 6x6 map? I know that it could be used to give you a fixed boost pressure open loop, ie 10psi through the whole rev range, but I thought that there was a problem with the logic running closed loop.Ask Kenny or Kyle242gt, cause I really don't know. I do remember Kyle posting that he setup the boost control to be TPS based, IE 25% = 5psi, 50% = 10psi, etc. I'm pretty sure he liked it alot.

[linuxman51]

Ask Kenny or Kyle242gt, cause I really don't know. I do remember Kyle posting that he setup the boost control to be TPS based, IE 25% = 5psi, 50% = 10psi, etc. I'm pretty sure he liked it alot.


open loop boost control worked best for me a year ago when i was messing with it, you set it up to reference tps vs rpm, so if you're at 50% throttle it wont give more than however much boost at Y rpm. Worked great to get the turbo to spool up faster, set the duty cycle on the valve to 100% so the hoe was locked shut, the turbo would spool faster than you could imagine, for a decently sized hairdryer

[The Aspirator]

Sounds like you're not using it anymore? Sell me your 850 solenoid so I can play too! :-D

[linuxman51]

Sounds like you're not using it anymore? Sell me your 850 solenoid so I can play too! :-D


i'm not currently using it (or currently driving a turbo car sooooooon again tho), but uhm no. ;)
go get a gm BCS. they retail new for like $30

[PetesDustyVolvo]

the next big hurdle for me with the six is saving up the $2000 for an E11v2. The thing that turns me off of MS is the lack of "plug and play"-ability that haltech and the other nicer standalones have.

If I was working on a side project I-4 car I'd use MS in a heartbeat, but the "down time" that people seem to have getting MS to work doesen't make it attractive to me for a daily driver car.

Even then the relatively cheap cost of a used e6 is really tempting. Don't get me wrong, a MS car would be a great EE-type project, but I'm not sure if that extra ~$200-300 saved is worth it to me at least...

the next big hurdle for you is to stfu

[acbarnett]

there is no plug and play for haltech. you can get a random 6 cyl map and hope that it works, but the same thing applies to megasquirt.
Fess up, you're afraid of the system because it doesnt have a big name and seems complicated.. Theres nothing "easy" about any engine management system, I dont care what anyone says. AEM is great, but its easily just as hard if not harder to tune than megasquirt. dont get me wrong, i think an e11v2 is badass, same with motec autronic, etc, but you're lying to yourself if you think its going to be easier. Its different, and doesnt suffer from "feature creep"

I also want the E11v2 because it can do some things that I'm not sure MS can do. I.e. I want to take the engine to ~8000+ RPM, and I want to control not only boost, but the wastegate actuator setup that will control the sequential turbo setup...

[foggyjames]

I know it can control a BCS, but you can't vary the boost pressure following that curve from inside the car AFAIK. That's a big bonus for me...4psi for urban and motorway use, 10 for a bit of fun, 20 for when a Cobra needs a slap...all following a 'boost curve'. I've heard Haltech can also baby the boost in (in terms of time) following a gearchange. Cheaper than a replacement gearbox...

Someone earlier said it...if you want the extra features and don't mind spending the cash, why complain? That works for me! I'd also totally go with the Linux vs Windows analogy (in my very limited experience of Linux).

I suppose the point of this post was to try to get some the big players in MS on the board to chip in with their thoughts, especially regarding choosing an EMS. I'm sure when you break it down, MS really isn't that bad...but the first impression is that it's a ballache compared to the alternatives. I love MS on a conceptual level, but man does Haltech (for example) SOUND easier to an outsider. Maybe there's a magic manual that I've missed which breaks it all down into bitesize chunks, but it descends into geek within a page or so of what I read. I like geek as much as the next man, but explain the basics to me first!

A friend has MS on his 360, so I should probably spend some time going through it with either him, Nick, or Chesh. Part of me really wants to use MS, but the lack of a specific feature I want (and I bet having to buy a £200 EBC will close the price gap a LOT!), and the head**** documentation is turning me off using it on the 360. Now if it works on a T5 engine, or if I eventually F+T the 245 I might well be inheriting shortly...:-D)

cheers

James

[The Aspirator]

i'm not currently using it (or currently driving a turbo car sooooooon again tho), but uhm no. ;)
go get a gm BCS. they retail new for like $30Bummer, but I'll look into the GM one, thanks.

Maybe there's a magic manual that I've missed which breaks it all down into bitesize chunksYou HAVE seen this right? http://www.megasquirt.info/
It explains the basics very very well, but I don't think it explains any of the really really cool stuff, for that you have to go to MSEFI.com. And you can easily have two boost tables, which can be changed from a switch on the dash, and at the same time it can also switch to a different spark map, fuel map, and anything really.

But if you wanna spend 2 grand to get the best, hey I'm not gonna stop you, I'm just trying to answer your questions :).

John

[foggyjames]

Boost switch on the dash is better than nothing...and I didn't know that was possible. Cool.

Yeah, that's where I started off. To be fair, that guide started off very well indeed, and was informative...but it went downhill pretty fast once I wanted to get a little more technical. It got too technical too quickly, and it didn't seem to help that every version of the hardware and software has different possibilities...and you can't run the best software (MSnS-e?) on the best hardware (MS-II?). Hell, I'll probably look back at this post with a god awful cringe on my face in a years (make that 3...I'm not giving in to Griz/ACB syndrome :)) time when I'm running MS quite happily :rofl:

cheers

James

[Captain Bondo]

I like the idea of having as few different boxes trying to talk to each other as possible, honest, but boost control has always struck me as a task best handled by a dedicated boost controller, pretty much regardless of what ems you're using.

Also 4 cylinder guys considering haltech shuld ignore the E11. The E11 is an E8 with more outputs. The E8 will do sequential spark and fuel on a 4 so you don't really need to pay for the extra outputs. An E8 is somewhere in the neighborhood of 1100-1200 with a flying lead I think.

Cool to see nobody's bashing either side too badly. :rofl:

Also John if you want to play with the boost solenoid thingy from my t6 you're welcome to it. :)

[The Aspirator]

Also John if you want to play with the boost solenoid thingy from my t6 you're welcome to it. :)YEAH! That would be awesome.

[foggyjames]

Any particular reason why you're in favour of a proper EBC Cap't? My take on them is that they generally seem so damn complicated that people can't get the wastegate response they're looking for, and they're overly expensive for what they are (hell, I could get an MS kit for the typical eBay price of a decent EBC)...but they're better than an MBC :-D

I think this is my first thread in here, and I LIKE it :-D

cheers

James

[acbarnett]

like foggy said, I like the idea of being able to vary my boost according to what I want,like have a 7 psi stock mode, a 14 psi fun mode, and a 21 psi "teach that guy in the viper a lesson he won't forget" mode. I think I'll go for an external EBC, and use the boost curve map stuff to better control when and where the second turbo spools...

[Captain Bondo]

I think it makes sense because basically you really need to do two things:

1)Control the onset of boost
2)Control the peak level


Personally all I want is for boost to go the level I desire and to get there as quickly as possible.

The name of the game there is to keep the wastegate closed for as long as possible and then open it as quickly as possible, without getting an overshoot.
Basically eliminate wastegate creep and have a stable steady state boost level once it's boiling.

Being able to map boost vs throttle position for example has no real-word purpose at least to me. I just weant the response linear so the car is driveable. Boost vs rpm is really the same sort of thing. I'd rather have manifold pressure be stable across the rpm range and then have a timing curve suited to that. Varying the boost over rpm is just trying to give yourself a headache I think.

From what I've seen, it's these sort of functions that EMS's generally control.
All you really need is a simple controller with a gain setting and a max setting (ot maybe a few). And there are a few out there (ie Blitz).

That's just my take though- some people have a need for doing fancier stuff and that's cool too. I just don't personally see the benefit.

[The Aspirator]

I just want to play with the MS EBC to have some fun and see if I like it. But overall I'm totally with Kenny on this one. Have the response consistant so the car is predictable. For you guys that think you NEED an EBC with 3 different boost levels, it's called throttle control, learn to use it ;-). With a turbo and lots of boost, it's easy to modulate your speed/power with throttle control once you get used to it (if it's predictable).... although I guess I haven't driven anything with over 250hp yet, so with more power it might become harder and harder.

[foggyjames]

For you guys that think you NEED an EBC with 3 different boost levels, it's called throttle control, learn to use it ;-)
Cruise control :-P I value my MPG. Plus it'd take temptation out of the way :)

cheers

James

[linuxman51]

I also want the E11v2 because it can do some things that I'm not sure MS can do. I.e. I want to take the engine to ~8000+ RPM, and I want to control not only boost, but the wastegate actuator setup that will control the sequential turbo setup...


it'll do 8k plus. unless you're using some kind of linear actuators, I can't picture a setup that a well thought out prog. output couldn't deal with. I think the sequential turbo setup is a bit strange too, but thats not my project so whatevah playah.

if what you're getting at is as simple as "I want e11v2 because it works on rotaries that have the same wastegate setup i want to run", then say that. Dont beat around the bush with mundane details on something you havent really laid out and dont plan on explaining along with your nonsensical statements on the matter at hand.

Fuzzy logic on boost controllers is more or less ****. avc-r's on every car i've seen them on have been more problematic than they have been helpful, and the best boost controller out of all the folks that play with turbo cars (both single and twin :-P ) say the best boost controller on the market is the profec b. Nice, simple, and it works like a ****ing champion all the time.

the open loop boost control on megasquirt works in the same mannor but with an added degree of flexibility (rpm range).

To address what bondo is saying a little more precisely, having the ability to map boost vs tps is actually fairly helpful (but it doesnt need a 6x6 table imo, a 3x6 or so would be better), because you can have it setup to run wastegate pressure all the way to say 70% throttle (for crusing on the interstate for instance) and past that, close the soleniod, instaspool and off you go. the nice thing about the rpm ranges is that it would allow you to say taper boost in the upper rpms (if you want to do that sorta thing), or increase in the upper rpms, which can have its advantages but I largely agree with bondo on the statement that varrying boost pressure over rpm range is more of a crutch than a solution

[foggyjames]

you can have it setup to run wastegate pressure all the way to say 70% throttle (for crusing on the interstate for instance) and past that, close the soleniod, instaspool and off you go.
Ooh, now you're pimpin'.

A big factor here is the fuel thing. Perhaps it doesn't matter so much over there, but when it's $1.60+ a LITRE for the cheap stuff....it matters. All the 940T guys here have found that even with the best will in the world, MBC or EBC at 12psi means terrible economy. Dad has noticed a marked drop in MPG when going from a 4psi actuator to a 7psi one, and he drives like an old woman.

I'm primarily fitting a turbo lump to get the same performance but better economy (in 4psi 'FK' mode). If a 940 LPT can get 35 (euro) MPG plus, it should top 40 easily in a light lil' 360. I can't top 25 reliably with the carbs. That's sickening, given that it's still in the 17s (although that's another story). The fact that (when the need arises) making 250 at the wheels should be easy with that setup (ideas floating in my head include...big valved 531, A cam, 19T, 20psi) is a bonus, but it mustn't be at the expense of the primary target, which is current (or slightly better) performance, better MPG. If I can get that out of a single setup, for example using Kenny's suggesting of a TPS related boost map, perfect. However I don't want to be in the situation Chesh is in, where the slightest tickle of the throttle brings on the big boost, and you can't get the MPG above 20.

Hope some of that makes sense...

cheers

James

[The Aspirator]

Okay James, I see your point. I guess I meant that throttle control can regulate speed well, even with full boost if you just use very little throttle. But like you said, high boost = low MPG, and that makes perfect sense. So NOW I understand why you want an EBC, hell me too for that reason.

John

[dirtbike]

Ooh, now you're pimpin'.

A big factor here is the fuel thing. Perhaps it doesn't matter so much over there, but when it's $1.60+ a LITRE for the cheap stuff....it matters. All the 940T guys here have found that even with the best will in the world, MBC or EBC at 12psi means terrible economy. Dad has noticed a marked drop in MPG when going from a 4psi actuator to a 7psi one, and he drives like an old woman.


Jesus your old man MUST be driving like a woman, the best I could get in FK mode 25mpg, but I don't think thats bad for a 135k motor pulling circa 3200lbs.

isn't spending upto £1000 on any professional ecu opposed to £150 on a MS going to give you lots of spare cash for fuel. 6 months after you get that new engine in there you going to be bored ****less with stock power levels and you will want more and at that time no matter what ems you use your MPG will plummet regardless.

Buy a MS and play with it, if you then decide it's too much hassle sell it on there will always be a demand for them, until the big boys start producing ems for £200(ain't gonna happen).
Laters
Nick

[foggyjames]

I think the 35mpg thing is fairly common...I think Dokeh and Griz could confirm...? That's motorway use, of course...

Good call Nick...and MS is hardly gonna be a money pit :)

cheers

James

[grizlyadams]

I could make 35mpg at 80ish mph and 4psi on a engine with 230,000+ miles on, 400+ miles to a tank, in 12psi mpg drops like buggery.
Griz

[Dr Dokeh]

I think the 35mpg thing is fairly common...I think Dokeh and Griz could confirm...?

Yeah 36-37mpg at 70mph/2500rpm with the cruise control.

The trick is to use the cruise control in a passive manner, rather than allowing it 100% control of the throttle. It's all well and good cruising at 70 on a flat road pulling 10-15inHg, but as soon as you get to a slight hill it'll start boosting and your MPG will drop like a stone in a lake.

[foggyjames]

Just to threadjack a little more, I'm considering fitting progressive cruise to the 360 rather than the 740 system I have planned. It basically gives less throttle when there's only a small speed gap to be closed, more like you would if you were controlling the throttle yourself.

cheers

James

[dirtbike]

James I think you just hit the nailon the head :

...more like you would if YOU were controlling the throttle yourself...


Economy is boring! it's only money!(ps this is the exact reason I'm broke)
Laters
Nick

[foggyjames]

To be honest, 95% of the time (from a behind the wheel point of view) a Mondeo diesel would suit me just fine. My car is now a hoot to drive hard, but I've wrecked it as far as being nice to drive on a daily basis goes...and I want that back! Daily motoring is pretty boring anyway (mainly because the roads are so damn busy)...so it might as well be cheap and comfortable.

Anyway, the 360 is supposed to be the sensible car...the 340 will hopefully be for fun. I think I've learned my lesson re: spoiling your daily driver.

cheers

James

[Fishey]

I just figured I would bring this back with an update overview of the two systems now in 2008 and give my $.02

First, I would like to say I have read alot of bad information regarding both systems throughout this forum so I figured I would clear alot of it up. The first is that the E6x and E8/E11v2 are not at all the same systems. All support for the E6x has pretty much come to a standstill as its out dated and for barely any more money you can have an E8. The E8 and E11v2 are identical outside of injector/ignition outputs. You can run E11v2 software on an E8 thats how identical the two are. The only reason for a E11V2 is if you have a 5cylinder. MS2 Extra is the latest major upgrade to the megasquirt line with the new MS2 Sequencer on the way but it still has bugs in the injector drivers.

Now, In terms of performance Haltech E8 (The one to buy if you have a redblock) has every advantage over MS2 Extra.
Haltech E8 will run Sequential on your four cylinder.

Haltech Advantages
-Advantages of Sequential Injection
1. Cylinder Trimming
2. Staged Injection
3. Improved Off idle response
4. Smoother Idle
5. Emissions
6. Improved Fuel Economy

Megasquirt maps are 16x16 at best (usually 12x12) compared to 32x32 of Haltech E8. Megasquirt uses a linear interpolate, Haltech E8 uses 3 dimensional interpolation.
- Map Resolution and interpolates Advantages

1. Increased Driveability
2. Increased fuel map control

Haltech uses a internal and automatic Barometric correction system, Megasquirt requires you to add it using one of two ways.
1. Ease of use
2. Better control over engine A/F ratio in changing conditions.

There is more but I figured I stop here for now before my dog eats the remote...

[the poi]

/\/\ well ya, I'd hope something 10 times the price would be better :-P

[MrBill]

We should also consider the disadvantages of haltech to megasquirt:

Disadvantages of haltech:
****-tastic support page. I remember trying to fish through their worthless web-forum for answers with str8krewzn one weekend.
It does cost between 3 and 6 times as much as megasquirt
Much less open-sourceness.

Advantages of MS2-e
I actually just flashed to ms2-e today, which is an advantage
It was a free upgrade from ms-2
Open source
Haxing of the board is easy.
No one cares about emmissions and there are plenty of people passing it with megasquirt
at wot it doesnt matter if you have sequential injection, think about how long that injector is open VS how long the valve is open.
Cheap
oh i forgot: every other turbobricker has megasquirt and between MS-efi and MS-extra.com, you can figure out how to clone a baby with megasquirt

[linuxman51]

HM about this...


I just figured I would bring this back with an update overview of the two systems now in 2008 and give my $.02

First, I would like to say I have read alot of bad information regarding both systems throughout this forum so I figured I would clear alot of it up. The first is that the E6x and E8/E11v2 are not at all the same systems. All support for the E6x has pretty much come to a standstill as its out dated and for barely any more money you can have an E8. The E8 and E11v2 are identical outside of injector/ignition outputs. You can run E11v2 software on an E8 thats how identical the two are. The only reason for a E11V2 is if you have a 5cylinder. MS2 Extra is the latest major upgrade to the megasquirt line with the new MS2 Sequencer on the way but it still has bugs in the injector drivers.

Now, In terms of performance Haltech E8 (The one to buy if you have a redblock) has every advantage over MS2 Extra.
Haltech E8 will run Sequential on your four cylinder.


Well I'm glad to see they update their hardware.
In case you haven't been following, for the mere additional price of, **** it we'll say $150 for the expansion cards, you can have a sequentially injected AND ignited v8. We'll address the relative costs down a little bit.



Haltech Advantages
-Advantages of Sequential Injection
1. Cylinder Trimming
2. Staged Injection
3. Improved Off idle response
4. Smoother Idle
5. Emissions
6. Improved Fuel Economy


-Cylinder trimming is nice, but what kind of equipment is required to do it correctly?
-Staged injection... thats not an advantage of sequential, thats simply an advantage of an EMS with multiple injector drivers. MS has been able to do this for years.
-Off idle response as compared to what? A properly configured x-tau setup will do this without the need for two trigger inputs
-they have idle speed motors to address this issue
-emissions? who the **** cares about emissions on a race car?
-fuel economy.. see above.


Megasquirt maps are 16x16 at best (usually 12x12) compared to 32x32 of Haltech E8. Megasquirt uses a linear interpolate, Haltech E8 uses 3 dimensional interpolation.
- Map Resolution and interpolates Advantages


3D! it MUST be better. Lemme guess, those three dimensions are RPM, MAP, and the fuel table value.

Yeah that'd be the same routine megasquirt uses.
As for the 32x32 map, that yields 1024 mapable points. We'll assume there are a couple areas that you'll never actually hit (3 bar@1000rpms, for instance), however this still divies out to 9.3 kpa per break point on a 3 bar system. So call it 10 kpa, from zero, to 300. With an RPM break point interval of approximately 235 rpms. You can keep that ****. The 12x12 (and now 16x16 fuel) is a reasonably sized map. I will concede that the 8x8 stuff was fairly crude, it did however work well. Far better than some of the 'superior' e6 setups I've personally seen.



1. Increased Driveability
2. Increased fuel map control


This is pure speculation on your part. Driveability has far more to do with the state of tune than what plethora of features a given box has.


Haltech uses a internal and automatic Barometric correction system, Megasquirt requires you to add it using one of two ways.
1. Ease of use
2. Better control over engine A/F ratio in changing conditions.


Megasquirt has auto barometric update on crank up. Presumably you spend most of your time at or around the same elevation. If not, then yes, for $40 you can continuously update the baro info


There is more but I figured I stop here for now before my dog eats the remote...
I don't think your haltech gods will help you with that.

So since you're trying to step up to the plate, lemme grab some numbers real fast:
Haltech 8 with flying lead (the 'long' one) harness. NO sensors:
$1,295.00 shipped to your door (MSRP of 1595.00) Not too bad.
Oh wait a GM map sensor will run you another $93.00, so $1,395.00(yes I rounded)
We'll consider the tps and IAT free since you have to purchase these as well with megasquirt

Now for the good stuff:


Stepper motor and BAC/IAC closed loop Idle Control
Closed loop boost control
Soft cut rev limiter
Tuning via TPS with Manifold pressure correction - Ideal for those multi-throttle body
turbo cars such as, GTiR Pulsars and GTR Skylines.
O2 sensor closed loop mixture control
32x32 mapping structure
On board data logging (up to 200 samples per second)
User definable mapping points
Numerous correction maps to ensure smooth drivability under varying operating conditions
Windows Software
The ability to calibrate just about any sensor for OEM applications and of course all the
usual outputs you would expect to find in a Haltech engine management system.
Click here to read more about the latest Halwin software used to program the E8 ECU.


I like the closed loop boost control. Its about time they caught up with the open source movement.
"Numerous" correction maps. thats great. I'll assume this means things like Air temp based timing and fuel, coolant temp based timing and fuel, cold warm up, cold acceleration enrichment, rpm scaled acceleration enrichment, and more advanced acceleration enrichment routines. Good to know they can keep up with the jones' on that.

Megasquirt. You can pick up a fully assembled version 3 board that will do everything the old e6x will do, for less than half of what an e6x costs with an unterminated harness.
To get one that will do most, if not all, the cool things the E8 will do (oh, and sequential ignition and fuel for up to 8 cylinders) will probably cost you a little bit more than half the price of a new E8.

Or you can stick around for a couple of weeks and wait for the new gpio board to hit the news stands, and it'll take the E8 to task by adding features like transmission control. I wouldn't expect the price point for a couple add on boards vs the gpio to change much.

Oh yeah, that pesky map sensor. its on board the MS. Add about $40 if you want to run more than 23psi, it goes up to about 45psi (4 bar).

[Fishey]

I want to see this $150 for sequential on MS2 with high resolution, Even the new MS2 Sequencer is ±12µsec on resolution and thats borderline. Also, you cannot stage injection on MS2 without addons as it doesn't have the amount of injector drivers required. Also, staged injection can also be aided by sequencing if your using secondary fuel types.

[Lord Tentacle]

I want to see this $150 for sequential on MS2 with high resolution, Even the new MS2 Sequencer is ±12µsec on resolution and thats borderline. Also, you cannot stage injection on MS2 without addons as it doesn't have the amount of injector drivers required. Also, staged injection can also be aided by sequencing if your using secondary fuel types.

for less than the cost of the haltech i can easily run and use the ms expansion board and have more outputs than the haltech could ever dream of

that aside

people are cheap
MS is cheap
MS works
and hell if I can make ms work any idiot could....

[Morley]

people are cheap
MS is cheap
MS works
and hell if I can make ms work any idiot could....

Wonder if we could relate this to prostitutes?

Anybody up for open-source, free-for-all hookers as long as you bring the hardware? :-P

[RS1]

Is Extra for MS2 final now or should it be considered as experimental?

[ashvolvo]

Wonder if we could relate this to prostitutes?

Anybody up for open-source, free-for-all hookers as long as you bring the hardware? :-P

:rofl:
Welcome to TB where we bash anything that isnt Megasquirt. :roll:

I'll paraphrase and say that I do think that megasquirt is a fantastic means of engine management.
It's key drawcard is not that it is 'better' but rather that its cheaper.
Not a bad selling point either, but we all need to remember that any aftermarket EMS is going to require time spent tuning it, and I do think that very few people on TB actually spend enough time tuning it to get the results that it's capable of.

All of that said, its not quite as attractive an option on this side of the pond.
Many, myself included, like the whole idea of a DIY EMS, but theres a lot of local support for
Haltech, Microtech, Motec and Autronic - afterall they're Australian companies (though I certainly wouldnt go anywhere near Microtech)

Coming back to cost (again, for those of us on this side of the pond) -
By the time we'd have MS in kit form or otherwise shipped, get everything required, fit it, tune it, etc the gap is considerably less between this and the other options.
Haltech and Motec ECUs come up semi-frequently second hand and accessories you'd need, etc are available from the manufacturer.

[poulson01]

See sig.

12x12 maps? I'm almost laughing...My 12 year old plain E6 has 20x32...

Prety sure my first MS was 8x8. Ran good too.

go ahead and laugh...it still works great and cost less than tuition...is your old system still under devlopment?ask this same question in a year and i bet we will have more converts

If you blink, you missed something. In a year, Who knows.


MS is great, and a system is only as good as the tuning, so for someone with a pretty stockish drivetrain that wants something that can set up to be decent with the flexibilty of being adjustable, MS it the sh*t. Not trying to flame on MS at all, but I remember any decent mainstream ems was 2 grand when evenryone started doing MS, so it was the greatest thing.
Are you the Kenny with the old 760 and then the 2JZ and the Haltech and all that? I can never keep you guys straight.

Umm... actually, you can bet your ASS you will notice the difference between sequential injection and batch fire- especially on a high powered turbo car with large injectors. That is total :bs:
I'd debate you on that. There must have been other factors because I've done the same thing the old way and there's no difference in power. Just better gas mileage and slightly better drivability...We're talkin' for Grandma.

MegaSquirt isn't batch-fire is it?
It is. If it isn't sequential, it's batch. You can split it so you have alternating squirts. Also, batch doesn't mean 1 squirt per cycle.

And I admit that I dont know much about MS, but it seems like you have to do a LOT of tweaking to make it work right. It seems like a lot of people are running it, but I dont see much happening with it.
I also want to reiterate my point that almost any dyno tuner is going to know what to do with Haltech. If you bring a guy MS he might just tell you to go away. Or, "Rate is 100$ an hour. I dont know this Megasquirt jazz, so it's gonna take me more time to figure it out." And expect to pay an extra hour or two.
Dam, I guess not. My car started and ran in seconds. My MegaSquirt came in sandwich bags. That was fuel only. Now, you have spark, nitrous, launch control, water injection......
Any tuner that can't handle MS is no tuner.


We should also consider the disadvantages of haltech to megasquirt:

Disadvantages of haltech:
****-tastic support page. I remember trying to fish through their worthless web-forum for answers with str8krewzn one weekend.
It does cost between 3 and 6 times as much as megasquirt
Much less open-sourceness.

Advantages of MS2-e
I actually just flashed to ms2-e today, which is an advantage
It was a free upgrade from ms-2
Open source
Haxing of the board is easy.
No one cares about emmissions and there are plenty of people passing it with megasquirt
at wot it doesnt matter if you have sequential injection, think about how long that injector is open VS how long the valve is open.
Cheap
oh i forgot: every other turbobricker has megasquirt and between MS-efi and MS-extra.com, you can figure out how to clone a baby with megasquirt
:nod:

Yeah I know it's early. I can't fukin sleep!

[500dollar744ti]

yeah, haltech may have the tech edge on megasquirt but you are going to have fun finding support on these boards.

every resource necessary for megasquirt is a hop, skip and a jump away.

[linuxman51]

I want to see this $150 for sequential on MS2 with high resolution, Even the new MS2 Sequencer is ±12µsec on resolution and thats borderline. Also, you cannot stage injection on MS2 without addons as it doesn't have the amount of injector drivers required. Also, staged injection can also be aided by sequencing if your using secondary fuel types.

Its called a GPIO board. look it up yourself. If you want something to do it right away, get the pwm injector board and set it up accordingly.
A nice side effect of going with the gpio board is it reduces load on the ms2 thusly increasing resolution (that's appalling apparently at 12us, or .001ms damn I hate it when my injectors aren't .00001)

Staging on haltech immediately drops it back to semi-sequential at best..

Here's a good discussion regarding the two: http://www.ohiorotaries.com/smf/index.php?topic=2584.msg19383 , along with some real-world results to smash some of your high hopes and expectations.

Besides, who the hell wants to tune 1024 datapoints?

[benflynn]

now that i have had the chance to tune AEM and haltech, i would have to say MS still rocks the house, kenny is right about haveing to tune a billion points

if you are under regulations and need the extra 1/8th hp from a regulated set up the motec is for you, if you have a volvo,then going a route w/o the massive amount of support you have around w/ms here seems a bit jack assed to me

ms has 10x more **** the you need, and more then you can wrap your head around in a year

[Captain Bondo]

MS has come a looong way.

I have historically been a haltech supporter- but the gap is really narrowing- I don't think anyone could argue against that.

The other Kenny's point about what sort of test facility you need to actually take advantage of some of that higher resolution is a good one.

Your map is only as accurate as the data you are logging- a map that is capable of adjustments that are finer than the resolution of your data collection equipment is useless.

MS has really gotten to the point where it can do the job well for the vast majority of applications.

People will always debate the merits (or lack thereof) of sequential injection- I don't really feel the need to defend it. It certainly isn't necessary but at lower rpms it makes a huge difference in my experience. I do wonder sometimes if the people who say they haven't seen a difference have actually gone to the trouble of timing the injections to the intake valve opening event correctly, etc.

[linuxman51]

another thing to consider in the sequential vs batch vs whatever debate is one will typically need bigger injectors to do the same things on a sequential setup, since you're injecting once per cycle instead of twice (or 4 times depending on how granular one's setup is)

[Captain Bondo]

I suppose a clever programmer would have a setpoint that allows the ecu to switch methods, since the benefits are sequential are a low/mid rpm thing. Switch to batch fire or something at 3500-4000 rpm.

[linuxman51]

I suppose a clever programmer would have a setpoint that allows the ecu to switch methods, since the benefits are sequential are a low/mid rpm thing. Switch to batch fire or something at 3500-4000 rpm.

yeah, and this would be fairly trivial to implement.

[Morley]

I have historically been a haltech supporter- but the gap is really narrowing- I don't think anyone could argue against that.

That is true. Even I have come to the same thoughts.

However, before we all give the Haltech the last pin in the coffin: look at the other proffesional alternatives out there. Compared to Motec, and gasp!, Bosch Motorsport, it's cheap, or ****in cheap, respectively.

And no bashing on the ability to pass smog/closed loop idle/environment - wouldn't it be every t-brickers dream to pass smog without two days wrenching prior to the test to bring it back to near stock??

Well, if I could afford to buy an E8/E11 without sacrificing the rest of a budget, I'd do it. If not, then I'd go the MS route.

[linuxman51]

That is true. Even I have come to the same thoughts.

However, before we all give the Haltech the last pin in the coffin: look at the other proffesional alternatives out there. Compared to Motec, and gasp!, Bosch Motorsport, it's cheap, or ****in cheap, respectively.

And no bashing on the ability to pass smog/closed loop idle/environment - wouldn't it be every t-brickers dream to pass smog without two days wrenching prior to the test to bring it back to near stock??

Well, if I could afford to buy an E8/E11 without sacrificing the rest of a budget, I'd do it. If not, then I'd go the MS route.

RE passing smog, its going to take the same level of tune on either system. so you get to jump through the same hoops. And unless haltech has a CARB EO number, its in the same boat as ms