My findings on how to get more fuel for LH(cheap ways)

[thelostartof]

ok so as many of you know i'm a bit of a fuel junkie ... well here's a bit of my findings from all my stupid fuel crap i've messed around w/ .... pretty much all of this stuff is junkyard parts so it can be done pretty cheap.

Here's;s a bit of a key.
These fuel ratings are what i have found online and all #'s can be higher or lower .. but take them w/ a grain of salt
357= the bosch 357 injectors that came stock in the 84-89 b230ft motor rated @ 29lb/hr @ 43psi (3bar fuel pressure)

804= the bosch 804 injectors that came stock in the 90+ b230ft rated @ 32lb/hr @ 43psi (3 bar fuel pressure)

brown top= ford injectors that are rated @ 35lb/hr @ 37psi (2.5bar fuel pressure) these are found on stock 87-88 ford turbo coupes(t-birds) but can also be found on any 2.3L turbo ford motor(84-88 mainly) because many people love to swap them in over stock. They can also be found stock in 87-89 merkur xr4ti's. They can be identified by their Brown top. Ford part # on the side is E5ZE. on a Volvo rail @ 3bar they are 37.7lb/hr(we'll call it 38lb/hr) about 400cc/min. @ 4 bar (dodge FPR more info below) they are about 42lb/hr 450cc/min. these drop RIGHT into the Volvo fuel rail. ZERO modifications are needed. They can even use the stock clips.

CFI= ford/bosch injector found on 80-85 ford 5.0 CFI motors(look like TBI). these are part # 280 150 400 on the green top injectors. there are blue toped ones w/ odd part #'s on them but for now all you need to know is if they are off a 5.0 that's CFI. both injectors have the ford part # E0SE on the side. they are/should be rated @ 46lb/hr @ 33psi 484cc/min. on a volvo rail @3bar they are 53/lb hr 556cc/min. on a 2.5bar FPR(BMW and n/a b230f FPR more info below) they are 48lb/hr 512cc/min. these drop into the Volvo fuel rail w/ new modifications to the injectors or rail. All that you need to get these to fit is a thick spacer (normally on bottom near cap) and o-ring And then two o-rings on the bottom where the nozzle is. If you want I can show ya pics of how mine are setup to make work. But in all of my swapping of injectors I have had ZERO that have ever leaked from the o-ring setup. All o-rings have dropped in w/o any lube needed. Just make sure they slide in fine. Newer o-rings or ones in good shape are best to use. oh and another thing .. there are only TWO of these per motor so it takes two cars to make 4 injectors for one of our motors. these injectors will and will not take the pintle caps that comes stock on the brown top and our volvo injectors. many of these injectors will not take pintle caps.. but many will i'll post pics in a day or so of the different types of tips on these injectors that makes some hold the caps and others not. but these tips are much bigger than the stock ones so.

both of those injectors are low impedance so work fine w/ stock ECU. tho anything over stock on LH 2.2 needs an adjustment of the AMM to make them run good and LH 2.4 will run fine w/o any changes. THO be aware that turbobrick940 is still working on a tuning box for these cars which should aid the stock ECU to REALLY get good power out of them. all that i am doing is throwing fuel @ the motors so they really do need to be tuned if you want them to run best.

4 bar FPR found on older turbo I turbo dodges w/ the newer style intake manifold (that draw throw but blow through like ours). bosch part # 280 160 260. mopar # 4306015 437. these bolt right into the volvo rail and will need a 1/4 fuel line to go from the return line on the FPR to the tank. this is a little smaller than the stock return line. this is a 4 bar FPR ... takes fuel pressure up to 55psi.

2.5 bar FPR found on I6 BMW motors. No idea on year but any car w/ a FPR that looks just like the OEM Volvo one is it. Bolt right into the stock fuel rail. Bosch part # 280 160 248. they also say 2.5 on the side. And have black bodies w/ white writing. Very easy to identify. I can and will post pics if they are wanted of everything.


ok so well i guess that's that. oh and a bit of into i've found about the CFI injectors. i've always heard rumors about these injectors not flowing the same. either it be from old age, or use or just a bad design. but some say they can flow up to 17% different PER injectors so it might be good to get a set flow tested or flow matched. i myself have found many of these injectors flow REALLY huge(bellowing black smoke @4psi) and some flow just a little less.. but they still flow really good.. i guess its just not clean or what not......

the fun part is mixing an matching parts. liek CFI injectors w/ a 2.5bar FPR.. or brown top or even stock 357/804 injectors w/ a 4bar FPR to bump up to fuel pressure and out put just a bit.

so there we go.. those are my findings .. take them for what you will i can and will post any and all pics you want just ask and them me know

oh and for F+T guys .. i have a few and can get more 31lb/hr(@43psi/3bar) HIGH impedance injectors that will drop right in place of stock injectors and will give ya more fuel w/o the need for the resistor paks.



OK and now i have to add this .. but well i sell these injectors and FPRs. cost is usualy no more than $60 shipped for either set .. so i think that's pretty fair vs cost of injectors new.. tho these are used(and pulled from junked car) many/almost all are tested in my car so. you can PM me or email me or call me(ask me for my #) if you find a set of injectors in the junkyard and have to ask about how to remove them or what not0 but yes you can also search the forsale forum for my post about brown tops for many pictures and most of this info on both injectors. THO i am usually out of stock on most beacuse they seem to sell pretty quick so either put in a request for a set of what type and get your $ ready because when i find them i'm gonna be bugging you about it. but take it i dont' get to the junkyard as much anymore because w/ a 3 month old one has to spend most of thier time @ home. so untill he's old enough to work on cars .. please understand any delays.


thanks for you time ... please buy injectors from me i'm poor and need $ haha . but please any questions of comments please let me know. .. and if you DID buy injectors from me already let me/everyone know the good and bad things(please keep them to a minimum i'm trying to be a good guy here)

mike
:volvo:

[the poi]

you've really put a lot of effort into this for us :rockon: Hopefully i can finally justify those CIF injectors on thanksgiving weekend, damn MS and no time (damn you school, damn you!) :-)

[Hank Scorpio]

sticky please

[Captain Bondo]

NA volvo's have 2.5 bar regulators too. Don't need to find a bimmer.

[thelostartof]

NA volvo's have 2.5 bar regulators too. Don't need to find a bimmer.

yea i added that in .. just didn't have the part # .. and ****ed up thing is .. i've seen 4 n/a 740's w/ 3bar FPR's SO i said **** it .. @least the BMW one says 2.5 on it(and the 2.5 n/a 740 say it to so go figure)

but yea ... just i find more of those BMW's than i do n/a 740's ... being that the last n/a 740 i found had a ... ****ING toyota truck motor in it .. i got the old regestration for the car and am gonna hunt that last owner down and kill em haha

[2383GTD]

Why not just get an AFC2 and run very large injectors and be done with it? You could also monitor your knock sensor...

[thelostartof]

Why not just get an AFC2 and run very large injectors and be done with it? You could also monitor your knock sensor...


and what's the cost on that? ... and how many volvo guys have used that vs just swaping injectors ...

plus swaping injectors works fine ... and hell i am running very large injectors w/ LH 2.4 w/o any probs besides running to rich(53lb) so i drop the pressure to 2.5 bar and they run fine ... idle is smooth .. @ cruise a/f is perfect .. and @ w0t its lots and lots of fuel ... how is that hard? all for what ... $60?

plus almost all these volvo guys are cheap ... many are just poor college kids

[Captain Bondo]

any post 82 na 240 will have a 2.5 as well.

[thelostartof]

any post 82 na 240 will have a 2.5 as well.
yea but don't those have the screw in fittings ..and not the push in ones like the 7series cars have

[andrew_d]

any post 82 na 240 will have a 2.5 as well.

Arent' 89-on regulators all 3.0?
The 200 series Volvo pocketbook says only pre-89 cars had 2.5.
Just want to make sure.

Thanks
Andrew

One correction on the OEM Volvo injectors. Both the 357 and the 804 flow about 300 to 310 cc per minute at 44 psi, or about 29.5 lbs/hr. I have read the 32 lb/hr spec for the 804 on the internet, but it is incorrect. I have had both 357 and 804 flow tested. They are completely interchangeable with no modifications needed. The part numbers for the resistor packs that were originally used with the 357 and 804, respectively, are different, but I have also interchanged those and found no differences in running.

Based on the reportedly successful application of larger injectors, which I had previously discouraged based on Trent James' experiment years ago using 370 cc injectors on an 84 760T (overall the car did not run better with no other modifications to the fuel system), I tried a set of the Ford/Bosch brown top 35 lb/hr. I had them flowed first. They all flowed over 36 lbs/hr at 44 psi. Overall the car did not run better with no other modifications to the fuel system. The car has LH 2.2. Closed loop, I could not get a factory specification air fuel mixture at idle. I could adjust the AMM to get an Autometer AF meter to cycle, but I could not get the Volvo special tool to flash. Closed loop, the car ran well. Open loop it was rich. Open loop occurs right around zero boost, although boost is not the signal that triggers open loop. I do not think the car ran well. Sure, in some parts of the power band under certain conditions, the car did run as well or perhaps even better. But dumping over 20% more fuel under the identical circumstances was not an improvement except where the original injectors delivered insufficient fuel -- at high boost levels with plenty of load. That is a very small part of the overall driveability and I have little interest in having a car that runs well only in closed loop and at high boost and load in open loop. I took a Radio Shack $2 10K ohm potentiometer and adjusted it to 300 ohms and inserted it in the AMM signal line, (I think it was the #3 wire, which is blue/red, but you should double check the wiring diagrams). I can now get a perfect specification idle and driveability in both open and closed loop. I run richer at 16 psi with a built motor and a T3/T04E turbo than before, but not rich enough to cause problems. I have not tested with a WB02, which would really be the proper way.

I do not know enough about electrical wiring to know how much 300 ohms of added resistance would skew an approximately 5 volt output (assuming the AMM is maxed out). If anyone knows, I would be curious. This is probably the best method to avoid the 4.9V to 5.0V fuel cut on the LH 2.4 cars (which apparently do not have a boost triggered fuel cut like the LH 2.2 cars).

This is not perfect. Its not as good as a programmed chip or a piggyback or an EMS. Its a compromise, but a cheap one and it seems to work pretty well for power levels probably in the 250 hp range.

The other methods worth trying are moving the AMM guts into a larger housing or making an AMM air bypass. Either method will reduce the amount of air the AMM samples relative to the total amount of air and thus the signal to the ECU will be less that what it would be otherwise and the lower injector pulse might be about right for modestly larger injectors. I have not tried either of these, yet, but may play with them before I move to a different fuel injection system.

I have disabled my Bell regulator while doing these tests as I do not seem to need more fuel that the Ford/Bosch brown tops provide at the boost levels I am currently running. Overall, I think driveability is better with the Ford/Bosch brown tops than with the stock injectors and the Bell regulator. With the Bell regulator, I could get enrichment when I did not need it, like at 3000 rpm and part throttle and 16 psi boost. The Bell regulator has no load input other than boost (and its purely mechanical rather than a MAP), whereas the Ford/Bosch brown tops are controlled by the LH 2.2 that gets a proper load based signal from the AMM.

Philip Bradley

[ovlov760]

My car runs fine with Brown Tops and LH2.2. I believe it actually runs better once the AMM is adjusted. It pulls much stronger under boost. You didn't tell me anything about the potentiometer when I talked to you about this.... so did the radio shack potentiometer inserted in the AMM wire cause the volvo flash tool to operate normally? Did you use the AMM blue/red wire in the engine bay or cockpit?

[procainestart]

My set of 357s (cost ~$8 for the set :) ) were professionally cleaned and tested this summer @ www.cruzinperformance.com (highly recommended, btw). Bench testing results for a used set that were determined to be within manufacturer's spec were 31 lb/hr @ 3 bar.

FWIW (maybe nothin...)

[2383GTD]

afc2 is around $300 with 16 rpm points you could actually tune rather than guess and mess with base fuel pressure. The knock monitor will assist in tuning, however it is far better to get a UEGO and EGT gauge in addition.

You could snag some DSM 450cc injectors for ~50 bux. Or your choice of larger injector, even 720cc if you had a t3/t4.

By just adding larger injectors, you are asking the computer to pull fuel at idle, mid, and high-ish loads as the O2 will read too rich whilst under closed loop. If closed loop compensation is off, guess what open loop will yield... This can be done with a newish O2 sensor and not that much larger than stock injector, but there is a limit to the compensation as you found. How much power will you make with ~557cc injectors? Did you have them cleaned and tested? Fine i would imagine if you are still on the stock turbo.

Do not get me wrong, I am not knocking that approach, I am just presenting another method. Yes higher initial cost, but FAR easier tuning and control, plus the ability to grow when you have faster parts.

Also, often times the stock ECU will be overly rich at high mass flow. With some fuel control you could pull out some fuel, resulting in better trap speeds, lower ET.

What kind of UEGO are you using to measure AFR?

[Captain Bondo]

Have you found a way to adapt 450cc DSM injectors to the Volvo manifold or are you just hypothesizing? As far as I know they do not fit.

As Phil mentioned, much larger than the 35's and you start needing to modify the AMM anyways. A piggyback will only work if it is getting proper input, and if the AMM is maxed out, it will not be. Garbage in, garbage out as they say.

There are numerous ways to get around this, many of why I have or am currently fiddling with. I rarely bother to post any of it though becuase it's basically pointless.

When i first started talking about using brown tops I had an endless stream of comments with reagrd to what a pointless mod it would be, if it would even work at all. Same for the powerstroke. That is partially entertaining and partially frustrating but I guess it just goes with the territory.

If people want any help going beyond the brown top mod they can certainly pm me- I worked all of this stuff out almost a year ago now. ;-)
I'm tempted to post about my new setup but it's too early...

[Captain Bondo]

Oh also the brown tops will indeed be enough for any stock volvo turbo. I ran 18psi with a worked head, k cam, 3" open exaust and large ic on 94 octane (td05-12b) without any issues except for a disintegrating tranny. I couldn't get it to make anymore boost, the boost controller was set to never open. lol.

[Hank Scorpio]

Kenny's right, the other Kenny (linuxman) could NOT get DSM injectors to fit.

I got my lucas ones to fit, but the connectors are different and it took a couple months (ya so I had other projects going on to) to come up with the right combo of orings and spacers.

[2383GTD]

At what mass flow does the stock meter max out at? AFC would also let you know what % it is running at. In addition, with hotwire cars, there is a function called decel air... yeh it lets you vent to the atmosphere :-D without the annoying effects of unmetered air/rich conditions. Try venting with a larger than stock turbo and larger injectors... far far worse without correction or recirculation.

Could you run a meter from lets say a VW VR6 engine? They are 75mm hotwire. Or, using the AFC you could even bypass the meter a bit, and add compensation at lower mass flow rates. The latter method I, and others, have tested. It works very well.

No, i do not know if DSM injectors will not fit. However, they are bosch based, and I know bosch injectors fit a DSM fuel rail, so i figured....
What about them causes a problem? Yes you will need to run a resistor box (or make one for <$5) with DSM or any low impedance injectors, if the ECU expects high impedance. If the problem lies within the manifold, would you simply not use different o-rings to seal the injectors? Honda guys do this all the time to fit them.

I just tested a spare volvo fuel rail... the 450s fit like a charm as expected. If the bore spacing was similar you could even run the DSM fuel rail (it is ever so slightly smaller and would not really fit... i just checked that as well).

[Captain Bondo]

I'm pretty sure DSM injectors are Denso style, not bosch, that's why they don't fit.

If you are correcting airflow values via a piggyback technically you can run an airflow meter from anything on anything provided you perform any electrical modifications necessary to make it the correct pinout/sensor impedance, etc.

The point is by the time you source these other parts, figure out how to adapt them, etc etc you might as well toss the air mass meter and get an ems. I think the original poster was presenting cheap way to get more out of the existing system. With enough ingenuity you can adapt a lot of stuff though.

[2383GTD]

Of course i highly advocate an EMS, I use one myself. Does everything and anything you can think of or want. Boost control, traction control, 2step, anti-lag etc. However, you are now talking about >4 times the cost of an AFC2.

Yes the injectors are denso style, but denso and bosch injectors will interchange will very little effort.

A few friends (using a bypass) have generated over 500whp using only the older style 8 rpm point AFC. One in particular made 535whp with 880 cc injectors.

Has anyone even tried using an AFC? Nearly every other platform has used them with excellent results... They are no match for an EMS, but they do work very well.

[Captain Bondo]

Well, 50% of denso injectors have barbs on one end which would be hard to adapt without a custom fuel rail so I would be careful not to overgeneralize. In any event I thought it was misleading to call them "bosch based". Like calling a mitsu turbo garrett based. Yeah they're both turbos... but anyways that's a technicality I guess.

I'll be willing to bet that most of these cars don't have a ecu imposed 5800-6000rpm revlimit do they? In my opinion that alone makes it hardly worth it. You can do a lot but you reach a point of polishing a turd, so to speak.

By the time you buy an afc and modify amms and etc you could at the very least fit a megasquirt or high capacity k-jet system without a nazi revlimit.

[2383GTD]

I have had much experience with bosch and denso injectors. Some have issues interchanging, but we are talking about DSM injectors. They will fit.

Describe these barbs? They are on the inlet side?

Rev limit was set at 8K. Made max effect at 7800rpm.

Is there a chip available that will allow a post-nazi rev limit?

Does MS look at the knock sensor? Or have knock based ignition timing control for safety? Just wondering.

[Captain Bondo]

Only some versions of the fi have chips availible from europe but only some and they aren't cheap. a chip+the afc + the amm is getting close to 1k now. I'm sorry but at that cost I just don't see the point. Save up for one more paycheck and buy a haltech off ebay. :e-shrug:

I don't know how the new version of Megasquirt that includes ignition works, for the fuel only version most people use the existing knock sensed ignition which is quite possibly even more paranoid than than the revlimiter- but there are lots of options as far as ignitions go :wink:

[MikeHardy]

i'm running 804's with my B230ET (357's stock) and if i don't running my ECU on the leaner fuel setting my fuel econ goes through the toliet, so they must be a bit larger.

[2383GTD]

Ok used AFC= $150 Meter=$5 I bought Volvo and VW meter, $5 each. Yes it helps if the people in the yards are clueless. DSM OR other injectors, $5-50...

I would avoid haltec and opt for an SMC2.

So, how much is this chip? Only some versions have rev limit adjustment? Get the ones that do? Why is this so hard?

Even for a stock rev limit with a lot of boost, larger injectors will be needed...

Its not so hard. People have been explaining how easy it is to make 300 or 400 hp for years now. The only problem is that the people offering the easy explanation have failed to put it into practice and no one has succeeded, either. I went further than you. I actually went out and bought a used SAFC and HKS AIC, communicated with chip makers in Europe, the US, Australia, and Asia, and looked into the easy part -- larger injectors.

It can be done, but I decided it was not the way I wanted to go. I was going to buy an aftermarket EMS instead, but by the time I got closer to the point where I needed one, MegaSquirt had progressed to the point where ignition control was possible and programmable outputs and a wide band 02 controller were in development. The price was too good to pass up. I'll practice with MegaSquirt while I wait for the development of UltraMegaSquirt to be completed and for it to be debugged. It will be fully integrated ignition and computer with full time wide band 02 control, all for probably several hundred dollars. I'd rather not have a hodge podge of unintegrated add on parts.

Let us know how you make out. What you propose can be done; I've been reading about it being done for years on cars that are more frequently hotrodded. You might even be able to do it for a few hundred dollars if you get lucky -- maybe twice the price of a MegaSquirtnSpark that can do much more.

Philip Bradley

[240T man]

4 bar FPR found on older turbo I turbo dodges w/ the newer style intake manifold (that draw throw but blow through like ours). bosch part # 280 160 260. mopar # 4306015 437. these bolt right into the volvo rail and will need a 1/4 fuel line to go from the return line on the FPR to the tank. this is a little smaller than the stock return line. this is a 4 bar FPR ... takes fuel pressure up to 55psi.

Has this been tested on LH 2.2?

I may just give it a try...

[2383GTD]

300-400 wheel or crank? Quite a bit of difference.

Which UEGO are you writing about Philip?

Also, you may want to check into the resolution of MS compared to an EMS...

With smallish injectors and low boost, low resolution is not much of an issue. Same goes for non or semi-sequential injection. I would hope the resolution will increase quite a bit with the next version.

EMS is the *proper* way to go, and in the end can be highly cost effective after all the add on bits you need with the stock computer etc.
That and the fact that you can do whatever you want the car to do, are reasons why I went with the EMS.

AFC2 is not a bad way for good power, and decent driveability, and allows control for little investment. There are some that do not like it, (and have not tried it?) that is just fine by me. I simply pointed out a method that does work. Issues presented were trivial, and easily overcome.

[Hank Scorpio]

Oh, did I mention, kenny AND Robin both had DSM injectors that didn't fit.

You can buy fuel rail blanks at www.atpturbo.com now too

[Captain Bondo]

As did I they didn't fit.

It's real easy for people who have worked on other cars to walk in and make assumptions that don't apply to Volvos.
I've tried a lot of stuff, some has worked, some hasn't, I can only vouch for what I've tried, if you can get cheap used components and make it all work, then awesome, do it and let us know how it all worked out.

Telling people what will work means absolutely nothing. I used to do that continuously and gave up, partially because in the real world there alweays ends up being complications I didn't think, and partially becuase people flat out don't care about what you *think* will work.

Everyone has something they *think* will work, a wunder part they can get used for cheap, or something their friend's brother's girlfriends dad used to make 400hp and it it cost him 50 bucks and a case of beer becuase he used to work on group a cars or whatever.

I don't mean to slag you at all man, you obviously have some background, but some of us have been at this for a while now. Appreciate your insight and I look forward to hearing what you cook up.

[Hank Scorpio]

Everyone has something they *think* will work, a wunder part they can get used for cheap, or something their friend's brother's girlfriends dad used to make 400hp and it it cost him 50 bucks and a case of beer becuase he used to work on group a cars or whatever

good god, couldn't agree 100000 percent more. lol, I get SO sick of that.

[nothing but turbo]

[...] I wait for the development of UltraMegaSquirt to be completed and for it to be debugged. It will be fully integrated ignition and computer with full time wide band 02 control, all for probably several hundred dollars. I'd rather not have a hodge podge of unintegrated add on parts.[...]

I'm for a single integrated system myself. The other day I made a "wishlist" for my "B21FT in 242DL" project as far as the fuel delivery sys goes. My plans call for higher levels of boost, not for larger displacement. In any case, I don't think the K-Jet can satisfy completely my 242 performance needs. After finishing up the list, I realized that I need to perfectly match a plentitude of different brands to complete the fi sys, which doesn't stand right with me.
Any idea on when this MS integrated sys will see the market?... or should I give Haltech a shot first?
I've already spent a lot on something that can take me faster to 300hp: a GT emblem! :wink:

Thanks everyone!

[2383GTD]

Doug, they fit my b230 rail. Perhaps I have a magic DSM rail? :-D Please explain "didn't fit". I honestly would like to know what needs to be changed or modded.

Captain. I have had my volvo for 12 years, and been apart of this community for 9 years. Your assuming that since I do not have the # of posts you do, and since my other username was lost due to a password issue, I am new. # of posts means not a thing :wink: I can however, understand how there might be a misconception. No worries.

Pretty interesting that you would dismiss something you have not tried, yet make statements that you try things that others dismiss. Try to be more open or something. Cross pollinate. I only want to shed light.

How much will the new UMS cost? Now add in a good, linear output, stable ground, UEGO that has a DISPLAY (yes, all the details matter!), injectors etc. Getting a little pricey, but IMHO is the only way to go once you have seen what it allows you to do. You could still run the meter, but why?

More info; the Bosch LSU4 sensor is inexpensive, but it is not terribly accurate, and has a shorter life compared to the NTK (not the honda one) sensor. FJO will very soon, make available a 7 wire NTK sensor and controller. A friend of mine picked one up, and I may do the same depending on the what we find in testing it. So far so good.

Now, an EMS setup may not be for everyone. Cost, tuning etc, etc. This is where the AFC2 fits in. A UEGO is the proper way to tune all cars, but a on a metered car it is far less necessary compared to a speed density car where it is critical, unless you somehow know the VE at all rpm and throttle positions. A new 02 sensor and an EGT meter will yield excellent results, low ET and good trap speeds.

In case you are wondering, I have used both the AFC and a full EMS, and tuned numerous different cars. Not to own you, but have you? Just trying to give some thoughts as I have been there.

In addition, I am trying to have a discussion about this, without the hating, and resistance. 8-)

[Hank Scorpio]

You'd have to ask kenny or robin, but I know Robin had a small fire, couldn't get them to seal at the intake. I had trouble getting my lucas sealed up, but in the long run I got them to work.

Dont think Robin or Kenny are idiots, they are both extremely bright and creative (sometimes in a bad way LOL), if they didn't have luck, I'd move on to another kind of injector.

[thelostartof]

here are a few pics of how to get the CFI's to seal.

two o-rings on teh bottom and then one thick spacer and then an o-ring on top(tho i used another small spacer to make it fit better)

w/ that setup i never had one leak .. never had to lube the o-rings .. just push in nice and easy



http://www.ifiruledtheworld.com/~priest/Host/sIMG_4265.JPG


http://www.ifiruledtheworld.com/~priest/Host/sIMG_4272.JPG



oh and more info about the DSM 450cc/min injectors ... last i heard you need a 2.5 bar fpr to get them to run @450cc/min on a volvo rail .. and last i heard they fit .. but you do need to hammer/bend the fuel rail down to get it to seal w/ those injectors

tho i got the same 446cc/min out of the brown tops by just swaping on a 4 bar dodge FPR .. so either way its easy to get the 450cc/min

[Hank Scorpio]

Thats exactly how my lucas look

[Captain Bondo]

"Your assuming that since I do not have the # of posts you do, and since my other username was lost due to a password issue, I am new..."

Sorry, I didn't mean to say that, I meant to say, try what you're talking about first and give some actual feedback on this app, that's all. I would encourage that. It would be great to have someone with your experience test some systems they are familiar out on the Volvo fuel system. :-)
What was you old username? Maybe I'd remember the context of who you are...

"Pretty interesting that you would dismiss something you have not tried, yet make statements that you try things that others dismiss. Try to be more open or something. Cross pollinate. I only want to shed light."

I didn't dismiss it, I said DO it, THEN write about it. I haven't heard anything specific yet as far as info goes, just anecdotal stuff. I wasn't dismissing it. Sorry, I didn't mean to discourage you- exactly the opposite.


"A new 02 sensor and an EGT meter will yield excellent results, low ET and good trap speeds."

A new o2 sensor will do nothing in our case. The only time the 02 sensor has any say in the operation of any of our fuel systems is while you are idling into the staging lane,;-) and if you mean for tuning any narrowband is pretty much hopeless. It's stuff like that which makes you seem new, no flame, just saying...

"In case you are wondering, I have used both the AFC and a full EMS, and tuned numerous different cars. Not to own you, but have you? Just trying to give some thoughts as I have been there."

LOL. What experience do you have with LH, the actual system in question? I have fully ripped and broken down the fuel maps, transferred data between them, was the first I know of to successfully sort out larger injectors on this board, converted multiple versions of multiple fuel systems back and forth as well as combinations of them, and run extra injectors controlled by multiple means. I will say the same thing back to you, don't assume you know the extent of someone's experience. I have been in the automation and control industry for 4 years now and have built my own control devices numerous times. I do things this way because it is what interests me.
I'm more interested in the challenge and engineering of it all so I don't always approach things from a standpoint that would appear logical to most. That's why I mess with Volvos- I have a hard time "coloring inside the lines". :wink:

And the fact that CFI's are similar lize to the DSM, equally cheap/availible, and fit almost directly makes the DSM thing moot. Would be greta if you could post a pic of how your are set up though.

[nothing but turbo]

I have fully ripped and broken down the fuel maps, transferred data between them, was the first I know of to successfully sort out larger injectors on this board, converted multiple versions of multiple fuel systems back and forth as well as combinations of them, and run extra injectors controlled by multiple means.

I know now to whom my next question about messin' with the LH 2.2 goes to... it's coooming!

[nothing but turbo]

many thnaks to mr. Bradley for his pm message about haltech...

[2383GTD]

"
Sorry, I didn't mean to say that, I meant to say, try what you're talking about first and give some actual feedback on this app, that's all. I would encourage that. It would be great to have someone with your experience test some systems they are familiar out on the Volvo fuel system. :-)
What was you old username? Maybe I'd remember the context of who you are..."

Thanks for the kind words. The problem lies in the fact that I generated a username quite sometime ago, changed computers, and did not try to post again until recently. Name is lost I am afraid.


"A new 02 sensor and an EGT meter will yield excellent results, low ET and good trap speeds."

"A new o2 sensor will do nothing in our case. The only time the 02 sensor has any say in the operation of any of our fuel systems is while you are idling into the staging lane,;-) and if you mean for tuning any narrowband is pretty much hopeless. It's stuff like that which makes you seem new, no flame, just saying..."

Point entirely missed. If you would refer to a previous post, I mentioned that the stock maps center themselves based upon idle and cruise AFR; closed loop operation. Not open. So who cares right? With an AFR properly centered about stoic, the meter and the open loop fuel maps will take care of WOT duty, provided you have enough fuel, and enough metering capacity of the hotwire sensor. I did not see the need to repeat myself since I thought you were following along... Do I still seem new?

I am an engineer as well 8-) It is great that you ripped and broken down fuel maps etc. I write my own in addition to timing, boost, target afr, and anti-spin maps.

[EricF]

http://www.imagestation.com/mypictures/inbox/view.html?url=http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid89/p3f233b110a682c77c307ecc9fefdddcc/fa7efdd0.jpg.orig.jpg&caption=img00001&id=4202626512

That is an n/a DSM injector (440 cc/min on their 2.5 bar rails, iirc), on a b230 manifold and fuel rail with an lh pigtail sitting in my room. It doesn't have o-rings yet so it doesn't seal up, but it fits perfectly and with properly sized o-rings it should fit/seal up perfectly... Maybe even the Volvo ones.

I understand that's not the injector you guys are talking about, but I think it's a fine alternative to that one. Kenny (not you, capn) used these injectors in his car for a while as well, I believe.

:)

[Captain Bondo]

"If you would refer to a previous post, I mentioned that the stock maps center themselves based upon idle and cruise AFR; closed loop operation."

That is half right. 2.2 and 2.4 indeed have very narrow band for this under low loads but it's not significant. And LH 2.0 is "centered" via a pot on the meter. The difference between full rich and full lean is actually pretty negligible at high load. It's an emissions feature which is in essence a mixture trim form the meter signal, all of which is effectively redundant once you start with the stuff you're talking about.

"Do I still seem new?"

Being that you totally missed the point of that block sleeving post below, I would say yes. B2x series core shift is common knowledge...

[Anonymous]

"That is half right. 2.2 and 2.4 indeed have very narrow band for this under low loads but it's not significant. And LH 2.0 is "centered" via a pot on the meter. The difference between full rich and full lean is actually pretty negligible at high load. It's an emissions feature which is in essence a mixture trim form the meter signal, all of which is effectively redundant once you start with the stuff you're talking about. "

Yes you were correct in elaborating on my explaination. However, you appear to have no clue what I am writing about. Likely, this is due to the fact that you have not tried such things. Mebbe you have, but why make statements like I read above if you did. Zero logic; statements do not agree.

When I write centered, it is simply for easy understanding, as what does a stock O2 sensor do? Where is it ONLY accurate? When is it active with respect to the ECU? Why would it be important to have the O2 be accurate about stoic, when the ECU does not look at the signal at WOT. Think about this for a minute rather than try and instantly correct statement.

Again, I might suggest using a real UEGO and EMS for some extended period of time. A lot of conflicts will be resoved. Perhaps you already have? Clearly, not indicated by some of the statments you write.

"Being that you totally missed the point of that block sleeving post below, I would say yes. B2x series core shift is common knowledge..."

Yes it is common knowledge core shift CAN be an issue. I first read about that ~12 years ago. Have a look around some honda sites, or rather spend some time around these engines and the people that own them. Compare a honda FI engine to a Volvo b...T engine WRT cylinder(s) failure. Then report your results. Then you may begin to understand why I wrote what I did. More power to you if you want to sleeve a volvo motor. Time would be better spent making a car faster, reporting results and methodology, rather than battle someone online :???:

Do not take this the wrong way. It appears, from reading your other posts, your role here is, among some good contribution, attempting to correct others *thinking* and experience. :e-shrug: Not exactly sure why this happens, but I do see a pattern IMHO...

Time to go make my cars faster... :-D

[Captain Bondo]

"Yes you were correct in elaborating on my explaination. However, you appear to have no clue what I am writing about. Likely, this is due to the fact that you have not tried such things."

Such as what? I was tlaking specifically about your comments regarding the O2 sensor function on the STOCK fuel system, that was all.

"Mebbe you have, but why make statements like I read above if you did. Zero logic; statements do not agree."

Hello pot? This is kettle... :roll:

"Think about this for a minute rather than try and instantly correct statement."

Well, you modify and reprogram all of these maps and such. Tell me in terms of % how much control the O2 centering has over the resulting open loop mixture.

"Again, I might suggest using a real UEGO and EMS for some extended period of time. A lot of conflicts will be resoved. Perhaps you already have? Clearly, not indicated by some of the statments you write. "

I qualified my statemts were about a narrowband stock snesor effecting the stock management. I specifically stated that if you were suggesting the stock NB sensor had a significant negative net effect on high load mixtures I would call you wrong. I never once denied the usefulness of a wideband. :roll:

"Yes it is common knowledge core shift CAN be an issue."

Then why did you ignore it completely?

"I first read about that ~12 years ago. Have a look around some honda sites, or rather spend some time around these engines and the people that own them. Compare a honda FI engine to a Volvo b...T engine WRT cylinder(s) failure. Then report your results."

LOL. Give me a break. Are you a troll? How do you know boris? Are you boris? If you do, fine. If you are him, why didn't you say so? I have had personal contact with you before then. If you don't know him at all, you shouldn't post his dyno plots as your own.



"Then you may begin to understand why I wrote what I did. More power to you if you want to sleeve a volvo motor. Time would be better spent making a car faster, reporting results and methodology, rather than battle someone online"

Umm... in my experience as you make things faster, things break. Plenty of people have had b23 blocks fail due to core shift. I have recently encounted the problem of taking the attitude you mentioned of "just make it faster and report the results". The results are catastrophic failure and starting over again. Thinking through things that are KNOWN weak points is wisdom. If we don't fix the problem we already know about, how will we find out what fails next? And you talk about logical....


"It appears, from reading your other posts, your role here is, among some good contribution, attempting to correct others *thinking* and experience. Not exactly sure why this happens, but I do see a pattern IMHO..."

Keep cryin' man. I haven't seen you post any real information beyond what I could find in "Import Tuner".

[bitjockey]

OK Guys--

Lets keep it on topic please. Take the bickering to PM.

[Hank Scorpio]

Ya, you'll never out wit kenny. Sorry its the fact of life.

and oh how I miss reading these arguements.

[2383GTD]

Ya, you'll never out wit kenny. Sorry its the fact of life.

and oh how I miss reading these arguements.

Agreed... Seems he has a personal problem. Whatever....

BTW, that dyno plot is not mine, nor is the website...

Have fun reading import tuner :wave:

[Hank Scorpio]

[quote:08b2eb6be3="TaderSalad"]Ya, you'll never out wit kenny. Sorry its the fact of life.

and oh how I miss reading these arguements.

Agreed... Seems he has a personal problem. Whatever....

BTW, that dyno plot is not mine, nor is the website...

Have fun reading import tuner :wave:[/quote:08b2eb6be3]

See, now you've just reduced yourself to the final "Ive got nothing better than a personal attack".

I guess your a modified reader instead :roll:

[84B23FT]

Wow Guys,
So much for team work! Lolol... :rofl:
This Volvo board is awesome- Drama-Drama-Drama!!!
However it has improved since 4 years ago.

All I got to say is-here's my $.02: Air In, Air Out...Fuel In, Fuel Out- as laminar as possible. Period.
Can't get any more basic than that.

[TurboNoobie]

Can anyone tell me how to convert cc's to lbs/hr? Like 430cc injectors are how many lbs/hr? Thank you for the help!

[stylngle2003]

Can anyone tell me how to convert cc's to lbs/hr? Like 430cc injectors are how many lbs/hr? Thank you for the help!

Conversions: [lbs/hour = Cubic centimetres (cc) per minute / 10.2] ; [cc per minute = lbs/hour x 10.2]

[thelostartof]

or the easy way

http://www.wheelspin.net/calc/calc3.html