Yet another spark table thread

[PetesDustyVolvo]

I am slowly learning that my motor seems to run fairly well at a wide variety of spark settings. Here is where I am at right now:

http://img364.imageshack.us/img364/7786/petspark7tm.jpg


I think this is probably the best table I've had so far.

I have two very simple goals with my spark table at this point:

1) I want to be able to cruise up hills at 70 mph under 85 kpa
other factors: afr

2) I want it to rip to the redline at 160 kpa like nobody else's business
i dont want to turn the boost up and forget about these lower pressure levels

anybody feel like revisiting this discussion?

[PetesDustyVolvo]

for reference here are my afr tables:
http://img498.imageshack.us/img498/3253/afrtargetboost2eh.jpg

this is my off boost table but i think i may have actually richened it up a little down low at this point:

http://img498.imageshack.us/img498/9972/afrtargetcruise0vj.jpg

[kyle242gt]

How are you using two AFR tables? And they're both called AFR table 1?

Generally, my AFRs look like yours, except I run leaner (by .5 to 1.0) at a 100-140 Kpa after spool point, and very rich (13) below spool. The former is to keep from dumping in tons of fuel on occasional boosting during cruise, the latter is to keep from pinging when I really romp on it.

Your AFRs and spark table look pretty good. The best thing to do is remove your MBC and set timing levels at baseline WG pressure. Then go up with the MBC to each of your Kpa lines, and set timing there. I found GOBs more power at 10psi this way.

Comparing tables, it looks like you're leaving quite a bit of power on the table, for instance, at 5000 - 6000 and 160, I've got 33/35, you've got 25/29 (roughly).

FYI, this is a stock B230FT, Kcam, greentops, and 87 octane. If you're running better gas or higher octane, you can probably run 3-5 (WAG :-P) degrees more.

//edit - can't seem to attach my table, but trust me, it's the shiz :evil: check "Hyperadvancing" and "De-camming", I think I posted tables in there.

[stylngle2003]

i agree with what kyle said above...assuming you're running better gas

[The Aspirator]

Looks great. You can probably go leaner around 100kpa.

I'd like to share a quick story about the joys of megasquirt... One month ago (to the day actually) I tore out my B230F+T and replaced it with an old B21FT. I took it out for like 10 minutes and tuned the ignition side just a little bit. I didn't even touch the fuel side because my brother has the wideband in his 242. I haven't tuned it at all since then, and it runs great!! I consistently get 16mpg and it's smooth all over, and on no tune that ain't bad!

[PetesDustyVolvo]

Generally, my AFRs look like yours, except I run leaner (by .5 to 1.0) at a 100-140 Kpa after spool point, and very rich (13) below spool. The former is to keep from dumping in tons of fuel on occasional boosting during cruise, the latter is to keep from pinging when I really romp on it.
Looks great. You can probably go leaner around 100kpa.


I like this idea... I like it a lot in fact and I think I'll try it :-P

How are you using two AFR tables? And they're both called AFR table 1?

I load up one of them and then turn off the EGO correction above or below 100 kpa depending which table I'm using. If I use the boost table, I turn off the EGO correction below 100, then I use vex me :-D.

[ovlov760]

Comparing tables, it looks like you're leaving quite a bit of power on the table, for instance, at 5000 - 6000 and 160, I've got 33/35, you've got 25/29 (roughly).

FYI, this is a stock B230FT, Kcam, greentops, and 87 octane. If you're running better gas or higher octane, you can probably run 3-5 (WAG :-P) degrees more.

//edit - can't seem to attach my table, but trust me, it's the shiz :evil: check "Hyperadvancing" and "De-camming", I think I posted tables in there.
I'm only running 25/27 degrees timing at that place on the table.

[PetesDustyVolvo]

I'm only running 25/27 degrees timing at that place on the table.

I just turned my 170kpa spark line up to 28 degrees and 31 degrees at 5300 and 6000... now I'm getting knock on teh first to second shift... MSnS cant be like "late" on retarding timing during this shift can it??

I'm pouring through data logs because I dont want to turn it down.. holy ****e does it rip now

maybe i need to retard it between 3 and 4 thousand

[kyle242gt]

that knock is maybe coming from low RPM high load getting back into it. I had a horrible time with it... though you should be above it on 1 - 2 shift recovery. That's why idle to 2200 is 13:1 now.

Make sure you have enough accel enrichment. Timing at high rpm shouldn't affect low rpm; and I don't think you have to worry about MS being "late". My accel is 1/2/4/8 v/s and 1/2/4/8 ms, though I haven't troubleshot that with the browntops.

K

[PetesDustyVolvo]

that knock is maybe coming from low RPM high load getting back into it. I had a horrible time with it... though you should be above it on 1 - 2 shift recovery. That's why idle to 2200 is 13:1 now.

Make sure you have enough accel enrichment. Timing at high rpm shouldn't affect low rpm; and I don't think you have to worry about MS being "late". My accel is 1/2/4/8 v/s and 1/2/4/8 ms, though I haven't troubleshot that with the browntops.

K

oh maybe thats it, i have accell enrichment off because i was tuning fuel and running it ragged trying to hit every square :-P

[kyle242gt]

So I followed my own advice; told the EBC to stop at base WG pressure - about 5PSI. I then added timing, and some more, and some more... :omg:

Now my 140Kpa line is
2000 3000 4000 5000 6000
22 28 36 41 42

And no sign of pinging in sight. I'm starting to think that it's not going to ping before it starts losing power due to overadvanced timing.

Has anyone tuned around 140Kpa? If you have, please post CR and timing at those points.

Got my NPR today :evil::twisted::yikes::party::volvo:

[benflynn]

i am still pinging under 2000rpm and in boost..damn this thing spools, i keep getting new go fast bits and have yet been to the dyno, i am always waiting to install the next great thing..i am running kenny's old 531 map wit timing pulled under boost some and running 93octane all the time

[PetesDustyVolvo]

So I followed my own advice; told the EBC to stop at base WG pressure - about 5PSI. I then added timing, and some more, and some more... :omg:

Now my 140Kpa line is
2000 3000 4000 5000 6000
22 28 36 41 42
And no sign of pinging in sight. I'm starting to think that it's not going to ping before it starts losing power due to overadvanced timing.

Has anyone tuned around 140Kpa? If you have, please post CR and timing at those points.

Got my NPR today :evil::twisted::yikes::party::volvo:

jesus christ. damn the rest of you and your timing.
I tuned at 140 a while ago and then have since only retarded those results to eliminate ping after upping the boost and changing a lot of other things

my 140 line reads
2200 3000 4000 4600 5300 6000
14 15 20 25 29 33

Is it possible the 15g causes a B230 to need more timing?

good news on the npr, you will like it

i am still pinging under 2000rpm and in boost..damn this thing spools, i keep getting new go fast bits and have yet been to the dyno, i am always waiting to install the next great thing..i am running kenny's old 531 map wit timing pulled under boost some and running 93octane all the time

I can't really get away with any timing when I'm in low boost. high rpm is another thing entirely....

[benflynn]

15g will flow more for a given kpa, that will throw your tune all out of wack, i am trying to wait for my new turbo to come in from japan before i spend any$$$ on a dyno tune

[kyle242gt]

For a given Kpa, I think the choice of a turbo will affect two things - MAT and EBR. MAT is a (supposedly) independent gamma adjustment, so I would expect MS to figure that in or out.

Lower MAT could allow more timing, but whether or not it's too much advance is another matter entirely.... that was the point of my post yesterday.

Lower EBR might improve efficiency and cylinder filling/homogenization. That would require less timing. Hence my curiosity about what other guys are running.

If I'm the only guy running 22-42* at 140Kpa, I may well be overadvanced, lighting the mixture too early, and losing torque. And the Kcam + 8.7:1 CR aren't pinging at all at that load, so I can't use the same tuning methodology as I used at 160, 180, and 210.

But, now that I consider this more fully, I bet few guys have actually taken the time to tune such low boost for optimal torque... The whole point of MS is mo'boost mo'boost mo'boost, and most guys (myself included) probably just shoot for the moon as soon as they can get it to run right.

K

[The Aspirator]

Pretty much your last paragraph sums it up! I've never set max boost down to 140, but the current map on the 242 is like this at 150kpa: 2500-6500 is 30-40*. At 200kpa it's running 24-28* in that RPM range. At 100kpa it's 46-48*.

Yeah the whole "too much advance" thing is really starting to make me wonder. And ya really can't tell till you get it on a dyno and find out what makes most torque. Ahh, one day soon.

[242Fast]

i have from 150kpa down pretty well on fuel. just turned the boost up to 211kpa and it feels a lot faster than it did at the same boost a few weeks ago. does the following spark table seem ok with your newfound observations? it looks like you're pushing the #'s a little higher than me.
http://home.comcast.net/~bigleonard/sparktable11-18.jpg

[The Aspirator]

You can probably get away with moar timing down in lower boost (165 and down), but if you're running 211kpa then you won't be spending much time at lower boost anyways. Your 200 line looks great, just watch out for going to far and having it PING! Also you need more resolution between 200 and 250, add in like 2 more lines up there especially since that is your full boost. How's boost control doing for ya at those levels? It is creeping at all?

[242Fast]

so far the ipd mbc's sticking at 16psi, i havent really checked it with mt but i might take it down to 14 or 15 and get all the bins squared away with vexme and then procede. if i add one more line from 200 to 250, what # would be a good idea? also, looking at the table, which line could i remove so i'd be able to add the 200-250 line? thanks

[Morley]

I followed Kenny's adive, and gave the engine 2 degrees advance per 1000k. Did wonders...I thought it could be too much, it was not!

[The Aspirator]

Either take out the 90 line or go something like 100-130-165-180-200-225-250. Make the 225 bins probably 5* less than the 200 bins to start out, that's what I have on my map.

[242Fast]

http://home.comcast.net/~bigleonard/spark11-24.jpg

do you think from the 150 line to the 165 line is too much pull? could i add more from 165 to 200 so it'd be a little smoother and still be "safe"? i know that's not something you can know for sure, just looking for some route to more umph.

edit: i took out the 90 line but left the cells the same shifting the kpa scale down so i'd have more advance at 150(on this present table around 33*), if that's too much at 150kpa then please say

[PetesDustyVolvo]

I think its too much but what do I know

[242Fast]

i went ahead and dropped the 150 line and the rest above it to match the table i had posted previous. then i went around to find kyle's table in the hyperadvance thread. threw some high numbers at the low rpms and it runs loads better. when you guys run a log through vexme, how many hits is good to set it to for a 20minute log?

[PetesDustyVolvo]

i went ahead and dropped the 150 line and the rest above it to match the table i had posted previous. then i went around to find kyle's table in the hyperadvance thread. threw some high numbers at the low rpms and it runs loads better. when you guys run a log through vexme, how many hits is good to set it to for a 20minute log?

eh I always set it for about 5 or 6 hits but then I go back and make sure its not making some oddball adjustment i know is wrong

[242Fast]

just loaded this table onto a newly megasquirted car, wanted to double check on whether the higher boost values are too high or low. thanks
http://home.comcast.net/~bigleonard/12-19spark.jpg

[linuxman51]

just loaded this table onto a newly megasquirted car, wanted to double check on whether the higher boost values are too high or low. thanks
http://home.comcast.net/~bigleonard/12-19spark.jpg



thats open to interpretation on several levels... what head, cam, turbo, compression ratio for starters...

this is what we came up with for a *stock* turbo car on the dyno (tuned from 6psi to 14.7) a few days ago. 93 octane.
http://www.pbase.com/kdh51/image/53763935.jpg

so far the couple of folks that have borrowed from it or used it in its entirety seem to like it..

[TerribleOne]

I followed Kenny's adive, and gave the engine 2 degrees advance per 1000k. Did wonders...I thought it could be too much, it was not!

For once I agree with Morley. 2 degrees every 1k works pretty well, I dont get knocks with 30* total and I'm pulling out a max of 15* at 1 bar.

[SwedishFish]

this is what we came up with for a *stock* turbo car on the dyno (tuned from 6psi to 14.7) a few days ago. 93 octane.

~spark table on the red(or is it blue:???:) 740~

so far the couple of folks that have borrowed from it or used it in its entirety seem to like it..

it seems to be working very well-when i first bought the car before the cam timing was poo'd it still wouldn't pull like THAT past 5k.
don't think i'll touch it till i know what the hell i'm doing...

[stylngle2003]

kenny, is all your timing dumped at 6K because you wanna preserve SF's AW71?

[linuxman51]

kenny, is all your timing dumped at 6K because you wanna preserve SF's AW71?

yes, his and dan745ti's.
not an ideal solution by any stretch, but i'd rather be called too conservative than be known as the guy that blew up other tbricker's stuff :-D (i'm quite content breaking my own junk)

[ovlov760]

thats open to interpretation on several levels... what head, cam, turbo, compression ratio for starters...

this is what we came up with for a *stock* turbo car on the dyno (tuned from 6psi to 14.7) a few days ago. 93 octane.
http://www.pbase.com/kdh51/image/53763935.jpg

so far the couple of folks that have borrowed from it or used it in its entirety seem to like it..
how stock? T cam and 42/48 T3?

[linuxman51]

how stock? T cam and 42/48 T3?


T cam and 13c actually. unported on both. and both still had their respective 016 amm's installed.

[ovlov760]

Could you've gotten away with more timing on that setup?

[linuxman51]

Could you've gotten away with more timing on that setup?

off boost, over a period of time to test things out, probably. the timing in boost is fairly spot on, it was more aggressive initially and then we had to back it down a bit because we were getting a little knock, primarily on spoolup

[kyle242gt]

Hey dudes, now that Ken let the cat out of the bag I don't feel so special anymore :please: :rofl:

I took that map from 120 to 200, and boy howdy is it sweet. My map is far FAR more advanced (close to 242fast, actually) offboost.

I was previously operating under the K cam timing advance profile (add about 4* per 1K? Just a WAG) and the car didn't want to rev past 5000 under load. Pulls sweetly to 6000 now.

I had to pull a degree or two at 200Kpa, but that's with 87 octane. And I set my EBC to about 12PSI up to 3600RPM, since I really had to retard the timing below that at 200Kpa.

Car runs smooth and strong and ... hot damn ... just like a new car.

Said it before, and I'll say it again, Thanks Kenny!!!! :cheers:

[ovlov760]

I finally got around to giving that spark table a little try. I borrowed most of it to play with. It mostly worked fine on my setup except for a tiny bit of knock between 3k-4k at a boost level i'm not sure of. It was hard to do any hard driving because the roads are wet, icy covered or snow covered and I can't get traction. Then I found a clear empty road and my #2 spark plug boot popped off :grrr:

[benflynn]

now do it with f+t so none of us have to do any work, i turned the boost up to 10, pulled like hell but had ping around 3k, pulled timing and smoothed the map out, ended up only loosing the ping when i got the afr's close, lost a lot of power pulling all that advance in boost but i have been too lazy to put the old map back in

[NitroX5]

Dear All,

I'm getting trouble to fine tune well my ignition table for E85
The setup is the following: MSnS II Extra ... the essential thing is the IGN map, the others doesn't matter.

I have Wideband(JAW), free flow system, set 1bar on the 13C.

So I followed what Fred suggested for etanol operation:

"Depending on static and dynamic compression, 12 degrees or so is possible under light to medium load. And 3-6 degrees (sometimes more) during heavy load.
At high rpm and high load simultaneously, the timing should in many cases stay close to stock unless the engine has been altered in such a way to actually benefit from it."

In the past the 740 ran with his chips...(012amm + signal mod + 680 injectors = this gave me a good ignition advance and power) Sometimes this setup was at the lean side because of the regular ECU reset/ installing ect. it hasn't enough time to learn the mix... and occasionally i got PING.(but at 18-19-20AFR!!!)

Recently with MS I mostly tuned out similar performance, but far away from perfect..
My AFR is 17 at ligh, 14.5 at mid and 12.5 at high load. So the fuel side is OK (moreover I think the 12.5 AFR is too much but is safe.)
I did not get any ping with this map. I know some part is jumble, because I'm modding it always to get some experience.
Just now I'm building an electrical Stethoscope to hearing the engine for ping/detonation.

Some of the guys using similar advanced maps(94oct) to me and i think the etanol can take more advance for the optimum ATDC 15° peak pressure.

Could I follow that conception at etanol to over advance ignition until it ping..and then couple of degrees back?

http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff56/Nitrox5/Megasquirt/igne85.jpg

[Alex Buchka]

It can be very hard to hear ping on an engine that runs E85. Dyno time is almost mandatory for getting the spark map dialed in.

[NitroX5]

This is bad news... Here the dyno time is approx 60$/hour. The tune will fill a half day or so... ehh, not my solution. (the whole MS was 247$..LOL)

[NitroX5]

Possible solution is a fair good default map(agressive) for B230FT, 8.7 CR...then add little advance. Because 60-65 BTDC ignition is huge, and unnecessary stress the piston where the compound has already burning. I will see...