Which Engine Management System To Use...

[Vikingnene]

I have been looking around for a stand alone engine management system lately. I see a lot of discussion as to which one is better than the next, etc. People have opinions and they tend to be biased towards what they have themselves, which I can respect. But I have a problem on my hands with my car that I'm trying to solve.

The problem: I have spent a great deal of time building my Volvo and it is a never ending project (or at least so it seems). I finished building my rendition of what a near perfect Volvo 4 cylinder would be: Fully prepped and de-stressed B230FT block(O-ringed for high boost), Penta AQ151 forged stroker crankshaft, fully prepped connecting rods, 96.5mm JE forged pistons, ported and polished cylinder head with oversized stainless valves, IPD Turbo camshaft with adjustable gear, custom made stainless steel equal length turbo header with external wastegate provisions, Garrett GT-30R turbo, Tial wastegate & blowoff valve, custom made cold air intake box, and various piping and sensors mounts. All of this stuff is really cool, but I cannot for the life of me get the stock ECU to run properly with this setup (it runs rich all the time). I know, you are wondering what the hell I'm thinking trying to run a stock fuel system with all of this hardware. The idea was to break in the motor and be able to run 10-12 psi on the stock system for a little bit while I could save up for a stand alone system and a real transmission. Well, I have tried four different ECUs and the only one that runs halfway decent is from a B234 (it actually passed California smog with this ECU). Go figure.....the timing maps for this engine sucks for a turbo motor and it does not have cold start injector control (the car runs like crap until I get at least 700-800 degrees in the exhaust, i.e. 10-15 seconds on a cold morning).

This is what I would like to achieve: My time for my car is pretty limited these days and I need to have a vehicle for work. I'm not made of money, but realize that sometimes you have to spend a little extra to save yourself some time and headaches. I would like to get a sequential fuel injection system that will handle ignition as well. I currently use an MSD 6A box with a Blaster coil and I do also have an Apexi AVC-R boost controller, although it's not wired into the ECU harness yet and I'm just running off of the wastegate spring at 4psi. If I need to ditch these two items and run an engine management system that will do all of the above, then so be it. I know a lot of people on this board are fans of Megasquirt and I can see the attraction of the price and flexibility. My take on the engine management system that I will use will be installed, rough tuned by myself, fine tuned on the dyno, and be left alone. I need this car to run at all times in all conditions. I live in Sacramento, California and I get some fairly diverse weather conditions, especially when you factor in that I like going up to Lake Tahoe (read -10 to 115 degrees, with 0-10,000 foot elevations). What systems should I be considering for my 1990 Volvo wagon and why? I would prefer if this could not turn into a discussion of "who is right and who is wrong" and "I know more than you do." I don't have time to read through that to extract valuable information. Simple answers are better in my mind.

I appreciate any information you guys are willing to share with me. If you can give me a ballpark as to what price range I'm looking at for the different systems, even better. I will be installing the system myself and would like to be able to do the rough tuning as well. I realize dyno tuning will have to be performed at some point in the near future.

Cheers,
Vikingnene

[Morley]

How much are you looking to spend?

MSnS is from $200-300, I've heard, while Haltech E6X could be had from roughly $1.000 upwards.

As always, more money, more options.

I'm using Haltech myself, since 8 years ago, and I'm astounded by it's reliability and versatility. I just fired up my 244 yesterday, after it's been sitting for 4 months with a flat battery, hooked up the some jumper cables, primed the fuel pump, cranked over, and within .5 seconds it was idling happily. My foot was nowhere near the gas-pedal. Compare that to all the tales I hear here about getting MS to cold-idle properly....I don't even have an idle controller motor, just an old K-Jet bi-metal valve. -5'C outside then, but I know it's just as perfect in -20'C. Been there done that.

But that's my experience, I've never even touched the almighty rumoured MegaSquirt, so I guess somebody will chime in on that. It's your money, and therefore your choice. A good idea wll be to download all the software for the various EMSs, since these can be downloaded freely from almost all the manufacturers sites. Play around with the software to find what suits you best.

[the poi]

Any EMS will only be as good as the tune. You can buy a Haltech or Motronic or a FAST, and it'll run like hell and never want to start if not tuned properly :-P . Especially since you want a car that can do everything... no EMS will be able to just accurately predict what the car needs at differing elevations and different temepratures... so unless your dyno can replicate every condition you'll be in, you'll need to do additional tuning with whatever ECU you use.

All of us with MS who have spent the time to make it run like a top are quite happy (although I know Matt Dupuis has been having some issues with his veeate). But with some driving around town time and some dyno time in, you can have a fantastic tune. Make educated guesses for temp enrichments and that sorta thing, and just be sure to bring a laptop with you the next time you go to death valley, tahoe, or alaska :) . As you get it tuned through all those varying conditions, you'll need to re-tune less and less. You'll face essentially the same problem wit any EMS--and there's really no alternative to an EMS. You've built an engine that's never been made before (in technical terms) so there really is no way to plug something into it and make it work in every condition.

My suggestion: use msns-e, and have fun. you have a huge user support base here and on msefi.com who have tuned these exact motors. if you get any other EMS, you may have more expensive support (and perhaps better educated), but not necssarily better or more available.

[Stereophile33]

just remember MS does not do sequential.

I am swapping to Electromotive Tec3 as we speak.

[SwedishFish]

If you're using a B234 computer then you can use the LH2.4 plug and play MS&S system our very own Kenny Howard makes. Works like a charm on my 90 740 turbo.

[Lord_Athlon]

Im using msns, and i can start my car and get an idle of 800 without touching the gas. Id say go with ms, it is hella cheap.

[Vikingnene]

Thank you guys for your input. It's all very appreciated. I would like to try and get something clarified: Is Megasquirt sequencial or not?

When I first started looking at Engine Management Systems, I was leaning towards Simple Digital Systems for their price and ease of tuning (I also had a friend from high school, John Magnusson, who used one on his 242 that worked good for him: there's that biased opinion thing again). But, the more research I do, it seems like sequential is definitely the way to go for throttle response and good gas mileage. Haltech is really standing out to me right now, but I have also had prior experience with MoTeC and know their stuff is excellent (but usually expensive). Here's a list of the ones I have found so far:

http://www.aempower.com/

http://www.emi.cc/

http://www.034motorsport.com/

http://www.fuelairspark.com/

http://www.gems.co.uk/

http://www.motec.com/

http://www.perfectpower.com/

http://www.sdsefi.com/

http://www.haltech.com.au/

http://www.enginemanagementsystem.com/

http://www.link-electro.co.nz/

http://msefi.com/

http://www.bullseyepower.com/

http://www.dtafast.co.uk/

http://www.autronic.com/

http://www.ptrsds.com/

http://www.ontronic-efi.com/

http://www.wolfems.com.au/home

http://www.microtechefi.com/

http://www.034motorsport.com/

I haven't had a chance to really look at all of them yet to start eliminating ones that won't meet my requirements. If you guys know of any other ones that are worthy of mentioning, please do tell. I guess I just need to research them all and try their tuner interfaces to see which one is easy to use. I was almost tempted to go with a UniChip at one point, just for the reliability of the factory unit and all the tuning the factory had already done. But for that price, I can get something that is completely programable with better features (like sequential and better ignition options). What to do, what to do...

Vikingnene

PS: Someone asked me what my budget is. Well, I would like to spend as little as possible, of course, but if I need to spend upwards of $2000 for the system, including dyno tuning, then so be it. Less is always better, as my car need a paint job real bad and new interior.

[Morley]

PS: Someone asked me what my budget is. Well, I would like to spend as little as possible, of course, but if I need to spend upwards of $2000 for the system, including dyno tuning, then so be it. Less is always better, as my car need a paint job real bad and new interior.

Then you want a Haltech E8. Direct fire and sequential ignition. $1250 on buy-it-now right now. (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Haltech-E8-Flying-Lead-Kit_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ33596QQitemZ8048384 911QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW) Flying lead kit, almost everything you need.

MS can also be made sequential, like the others said, Kenny is sure to chime in with MS facts.

[linuxman51]

The you wany a Hltech E8. Direct fire and sequential ignition. $1250 on buy-it-now right now. (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Haltech-E8-Flying-Lead-Kit_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ33596QQitemZ8048384 911QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW) Flying lead kit, almost everything you need.

MS can also be made sequential, like the others said, Kenny is sure to chime in with MS facts.


fuggit if you can afford to drop that coin, you might wanna see about maybe upping the ante a bit and getting an e11v2.

[Morley]

fuggit if you can afford to drop that coin, you might wanna see about maybe upping the ante a bit and getting an e11v2.

You won't need the E11. It's only 3 more channels you don't need.

[Vikingnene]

What, exactly, does the E8 offer me over the E6X that the Volvo really needs? I haven't researched it in depth yet, but I plan on it. And what of the MoTeC M400? That one looked pretty good too, but I haven't got the slightest as to what it costs.

So, I guess that means my Apexi AVC-R and MSD ignition components are being taken out. But that also means the expense of buying a 4 coil pack if I'm going direct ignition. Hhmm...

Things are starting to add up. I'm just afraid that I get myself in one of those situations of "Oh, you should also get this" and "It would be much better if you..." I guess that's where the prices of all these components come in. What is needed with each unit and how much will it all be in the end.

Here's what I would like to get:
-Sequential Fuel Injection
-Ignition Control (either multi-coil or distributor)
-Knock Sensor
-Programable boost control (unless I keep the Apexi AVC-R)

I think that is doable and should keep the engine in check and produce healthy power levels. Do any of these use a mass air sensor?

Thanks again,
Vikingnene


PS: It's not so much a matter of if I can afford the $2000, but if I can justify it to myself. I like the car, obviously, and I'm into it for way more money than I could ever imagine to get for it. So, where do I draw the line? If you ask my wife, it was several thousand dollars ago.

[Forg]

I suggest you list absolutely everything you need the ECU to control, and then get a box which has two more outputs. You always find that one extra output.

OK, including your list, you ideally should be able to do:
- Sequential fuel control
- Ignition control (Oz V8 Supercars use dizzies and have plenty of power & are tuned to within in inch of their life; so long as you can get a good coil I think coil-on-spark is a waste)
- Knock sensing
- Boost control
- Idle & cold-start air control
- Engine-cooling fan control
- Closed-loop (ie. use a wideband oxy sensor; may as well add it into ECU cost as call it an extra cost)

Don't forget to add the cost of each of those sensors too; the throttle-body sensor (850 TB's are crap), air-temp sensor, the wiring loom, any replacements of existing sensors (eg. water temp), either the MAP or airflow sensor, the aforementioned wideband oxy sensor, and of course the injectors themselves if you're using only standard ones. It all adds up!

The best would probably be MoTeC, Autronic & Haltech, in that order; although Haltech & Autronic have been jockeying around each other. Autronic has been offering really good pricing. However ... remember that even an average system tuned perfectly is better than a great system tuned poorly; my MoTeC is currently tuned for emissions purposes (passes everything by miles), and even on a turbo car it's not as nice as a stock 242GT to drive. So find someone near you who can tune cars properly, budget in the cost of them to tune it, and see what they recommend. If they only do drag cars then forget them; drag cars last 10 runs for 10s apiece & then blow up.

[Morley]

What, exactly, does the E8 offer me over the E6X that the Volvo really needs?

IIRC the E8 is a newer generation, but the only real advantage is direct fire capabilities in addition to sequential injection.

IMHO getting rid of the distributor is a mjor gain, as timing accuracy is very important on turboed engines.

But, your money, your engine, your car, your choice.

[JohnLane]

Before you go and light a bunch of hundred dollar bills afire with replacement fuel infection....
Just how much effort have you put into figuring out just why your current stock system is behaving badly?
Do you KNOW what fuel pressure is?
Do you KNOW that the coolant temp sensor is sending the CORRECT signal?
Is the Air mass meter healthy and happy?
Any chance of a 'false air' leak perhaps between the turbo and intake?
My fifty cents in a bet has something amiss with the stock system that can be corrected so that you can put your coin into something like a paintjob that she will appreciate...so that you will get less grief in the future about putting dough into what she may now (quietly we hope) think of as being a car that may be ugly and embaressing to be seen in.
Also......Much better to have a really good idea about your goals before pulling the trigger if dough is a factor.
EMS systems have come a LONG way and prices have come down a LOT for what you get compared with ten years ago. This is good for us!!

My car has Electromotive Tec II. I have made good power with it. I found it to be reasonable to work with once I was familiar with the DOS :barf: based (old system) software. Since having the unit rebuilt it has a different software package that is said to be better. Electromotive TecII does true sequential with wasted spark for ignition.

I believe that you will find MS to be real good for bang for the buck.

[frpe82]

So... It ran like crap on stock computers.

You tried the turbo ECU and ICU, right?

Which numbers were they?

[Forg]

IMHO getting rid of the distributor is a mjor gain, as timing accuracy is very important on turboed engines.
How much inaccuracy does a dizzy really add?
I mean, the only difference between a dizzy & direct-fire is surely the fact that there's potentially a small gap between the two contact-points inside the dizzy; plus the fact that the coil has to recharge more quickly? And surely with a non-high-revving 4cyl turbo engine, the latter isn't really a problem?

[Morley]

How much inaccuracy does a dizzy really add?
I mean, the only difference between a dizzy & direct-fire is surely the fact that there's potentially a small gap between the two contact-points inside the dizzy; plus the fact that the coil has to recharge more quickly? And surely with a non-high-revving 4cyl turbo engine, the latter isn't really a problem?

Ok, I give in, maybe the major improvement is from going from a hall-effect pickup to a 60-2 or similar. There's lots of slack in our 20 year old distributors y'know.

But hey! it's 2006, time to trash the distros imho.

[Vikingnene]

Thanks again to everyone for taking the time to help me out. It is truely appreciated. I have worked in the automotive industry for many years now. When I built this motor, I worked in a shop that did many race motors and a fair amount of tuning. But I was always involved with the building and fabrication side, not the tuning side. The motor is sound. The stock fuel injection system has been gone through several times. I have checked every wire in the entire engine wiring harness with test leads for continuity and resistance: twice! I have gone from a suck through air mass to a blow through air mass, just to see if it would make any difference. I even got a new air mass meter, just to make sure that wasn't it. I have checked with ether for any leaks all around and found nothing. I have built myself a guage panel inside the car where I can monitor engine oil temperature, engine oil pressure, transmission oil temperature, exhaust gas temperature, fuel pressure, and vacuum/boost. I feel very confident in my work and what is going on with the motor. According to several guru Volvo shops and dealership mechanics, if the exhaust manifold has a very bad leak (hence too little back pressure), the O2 sensor is thrown off somehow and causes a rich condition. I'm not quite following their logic, but they have all reported to me that this is not at all uncommon. My only theory for why my Volvo is running rich, then, is my massive header flowing too much and therefore simulating a large leak. The primary tubes are 1.875" I.D. to give you an idea. Boring and stroking the motor should have leaned it out if anything. The fuel injectors have been serviced and flow matched by RC Engineering. They gave me before and after flow measurements and they don't differ enough to make me concerned about a big injector problem. Like I said before, I am at a loss.

So, you see.....I have exhausted everything that I can think of that would cause my motor to run rich. I have consulted many different shops for their help and tried all kinds of wacky things, just to try them. If any of you have anything that you know of that might be causing it, please let me know. I probably have already tried it, but it never hurts to go through it again. (here's a fun one for you: I even checked the cold start injector by removing it on a cold morning, while it was still plumbed for fuel and had the injector lead wires on it, and started the motor to see that it would open and shut down properly. I suspected a constant leak from it could have been the problem, but not the case)

So, slight change of subject. Am I really going to gain much from going away from distributor run by 60-2 trigger to direct fire coil? Even with the MSD box on it? And another thing: What kind of control can I expect from from any of these EMS boxes when it comes to boost? Will they even compare to my Apexi AVC-R in terms of flexibility or will they only offer max boost control? I think I would benefit from controling the boost across the range, as the GT-30R is quite boost happy. It comes on at 1800rpm and wants to boost hard and fast. I would like to feed it in slowly so my transmission and drivetrain has some chance of living. It is still a daily driver.

Cheers,
Vikingnene

[Forg]

Ok, I give in, maybe the major improvement is from going from a hall-effect pickup to a 60-2 or similar. There's lots of slack in our 20 year old distributors y'know.
Oh, don't get me wrong; given the choice I'd trigger off a crank-angle sensor.
Slop is irrelevant in simply distributing the spark though; but then if you've already got the direct-ignition gear why not use it?

What kind of control can I expect from from any of these EMS boxes when it comes to boost? Will they even compare to my Apexi AVC-R in terms of flexibility or will they only offer max boost control?
Ah ... that's where they're all different. You'd need to do some research. The good ones you can map along with everything else, to get the best boost & anti-ping characteristics; mine's nearly 15 years old, and it's really only designed to give you good control of maximum boost.

[Vikingnene]

I guess I will have to call a few of these EMS manufacturers, since most of them don't go into great detail about their boost control capabilities.

As for the stock ECU number, my vehicle came with a Bosch 028 0000 560. I have tried three different 560 computers and all of them had the same results. I'm currently running a 571 computer that is originally for a B234F, but like I mentioned before, it has a timing map that sucks for turbo cars and it does not control the cold start injector. The only computers that I never had a chance to try was the 939 and the 954. The 939 is supposedly the one to have if you are running stock computer. I think the 954 is very hard to come by. And in case anyone is wondering, my engine does have an EGR valve on it and I have checked it for functionality. I also checked the EGR control valve and it works fine too.

If any of you think that I can get my stock setup to run fine with lower boost, please advise me how. I've exhausted all the possibilities that I can think of, but sometimes 100 brains are better than one :)

Vikingnene

[Hank Scorpio]

Vikingnene,

didn't realize you were also a sacramento'ite.

One thing to consider about 034 is they are local (bay area). Almost anything on your list will work very well.

[Vikingnene]

I spoke with 034Motorsports today about their products. They do have a sequential fuel with direct fire coil for each cyclinder setup that I could use, but it comes in at $1650. On top of that, it does not provide any boost control, nor does it have any knock sensing capability. For that amount of money, I think I will go with a more mainstream brand that affoers all the controls and inputs I am looking for. I spoke with a dealer for Haltech as well, and he was telling me the E6X was all I really needed. Just to double check, I sent an E-mail to Haltech telling them the things I wanted to achieve with their engine management system and asked them which system they would recommend. I'm still waiting to hear back from them.

Vikingnene

[SwedishFish]

Just buy the cheapest plug and play MS kit linuxdood sells.
If you don't like it you can sell it here within a couple of days.
But I bet you will love it.

BTW I work with Haltech dealers, they like the product as it is but I have had the opportunity to examine the Haltech ecu's and programs and I find they are only a little bit better for the humongous price difference between it and the humble megasquirt. My 2 cents.

[badvlvo]

Just buy the cheapest plug and play MS kit linuxdood sells.
If you don't like it you can sell it here within a couple of days.
But I bet you will love it.

BTW I work with Haltech dealers, they like the product as it is but I have had the opportunity to examine the Haltech ecu's and programs and I find they are only a little bit better for the humongous price difference between it and the humble megasquirt. My 2 cents.

I agree, so here's 2 more cents.

[Vikingnene]

Hey, if I get enough of you guys putting in your 2 cents worth, I might be able to make a little fund towards an engine management system. :)

I heard back from Haltech and as I suspected, the E8 is the route to go. But, in order to run sequential fuel injection (and this would be true of any system, I suppose), I need to have a cam sensor in there as well to tell the ECU when to start the fuel cycle. So, my question to you guys then is this: Is there any stock sensor that could be mounted onto my engine from a newer engine? I was thinking there had to be some sort of thing that could be done where the distributor is mounted now.

I await your words of wisdom, gentlemen...

Vikingnene

[str8krewzn]

Well i ended up goin with the haltech e6x with that i could run sequential fuel injection and have 1 more channel to run aftermarket ignition system
and have 22x17 tables which seems like enough
the e8 is better but probly overkill 32x32 is alot of boxes to fill up
but will have more channels
i could get the e6x with flying lead kit and all new sensors for 1150
And to read the timimg stock sensors wont work with haltech
but if you get that 60-2 wheel that bolts on to the crank pully
and somone else makes the bracket to hold the sensor
sorry i forgot there names but its in the For Sale section
and think is under EDIS kit or somthin
Hope this helps

[Morley]

Hey, if I get enough of you guys putting in your 2 cents worth, I might be able to make a little fund towards an engine management system. :)

I heard back from Haltech and as I suspected, the E8 is the route to go. But, in order to run sequential fuel injection (and this would be true of any system, I suppose), I need to have a cam sensor in there as well to tell the ECU when to start the fuel cycle. So, my question to you guys then is this: Is there any stock sensor that could be mounted onto my engine from a newer engine? I was thinking there had to be some sort of thing that could be done where the distributor is mounted now.

I await your words of wisdom, gentlemen...

Vikingnene

Yeah, you could probably use the stock Hall effect sensor and some modded hardware, but it would look weird to have an unconnected distributor just for the cause of the hall-sensor.

Shouldn't be a problem mounting a generic magnetic pickup on either the intermediate shaft pulley or cam pulley.

[Vikingnene]

One of the nice things about the E8 is the fact it works with the stock crank sensor. But I do need to get a cam sensor hooked up to get everything to run just right. I'm not going to do the magneting pickup on the front of the motor by the cam gear due to my adjustable cam gear. I would rather fabricate something on the back of the motor where it's less visible then.

Vikingnene

[the poi]

heh, haltec won't work with any vr or hall sensor? nice.

vik, a cam sensor could be made with the hall sensor distro-- just weld in (or cut out) metal in the 4 gate distro to have one gate.