Wilwoods on a 700 [Archive] - Turbobricks Forums

Matt Dupuis

03-24-2006, 03:42 PM

Since there's been some talk about the 700s braking system lately, and since I've slipped that we've been working on a system, I figure I might as well toss out a thread and let everyone know where we are and what we're doing.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
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As everyone knows, MVP no longer sells parts, but they used to market a Wilwood/700 kit, or at least parts for a Wilwood/700 kit, or at the VERY least they installed Wilwoods on a 700 and made some spares. When MVP reorganized their focus onto service, they sold the remaining rotor hats to one of the Tbricks members. Recently he sold them to a fellow Calgarian. There were only four hats, and said Calgarian needed two of them, but the original idea was to copy them.<o:p></o:p>
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This same fellow also talked another of the Tbricks members into letting us copy his caliper adapter, which he's built for using a Wilwood Superlite caliper on a 12.19" rotor, using the old MVP hats. I think we can improve on these brackets somewhat, and we can certainly re-tool them for use with larger rotors... Wilwood sells rotors in sizes ranging from 11.75" to 13" diameter.<o:p></o:p>
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We will be bolting this brake system together this spring, after I fully measure the strut and verify the placement of the caliper bracket mounting lugs relative to the centerline of the axle. Once we know how this thing goes together and try out a few different wheels on it, we'll announce the release plan in the For Sale section. For now, I think it belongs in Articles, because it will explain the wheres and whyfores of how this system operates.
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I guess there's going to be alot of "awesome" and "let me know" and "me too!!11one" in this thread, but please keep it to a minimum. I will update with pictures as soon as I can, and I'll announce pricing once the prototypes are done. It is possible that I'll design adapters for a variety of rotor sizes, but it's highly likely that 17" wheels will be a minimum unless the very smallest rotors are used, and there might be some issues with the spoke clearance on some. It might even be that the 11.75" rotors are out of the question due to caliper/strut clearance.<o:p></o:p>
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Rotors, calipers, pads, and brake hoses will all be up to the individual to source and purchase, but we'll do our best to try and guide you towards the proper purchases. We might even comission some special brake hoses for the job - we'll see. These will be sold along side our EDIS hubs & underdrive pulleys and our wheel spacers, and quality will be the same.<o:p></o:p>
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FWIW, the particular car the prototypes will be going on will be using the 12.19" rotors and some Superlite 6 piston calipers, and will be trying to cover them in 16" Mille Miglia wheels. I'm not releasing his name, but he might post in this thread - that's his choice.
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I'll keep you posted.<o:p></o:p>
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Matt

245gti

03-24-2006, 04:09 PM

<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
FWIW, the particular car the prototypes will be going on will be using the 12.19" rotors and some Superlite 6 piston calipers, and will be trying to cover them in 16" Mille Miglia wheels. I'm not releasing his name, but he might post in this thread - that's his choice.
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I'll keep you posted.<o:p></o:p>
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Matt

Actually, they'll be covered with 16" MASItaly wheels...;-)

NChoy

03-24-2006, 04:13 PM

I don't think you can use 16" wheels. I have Wilwood 4-pot calipers on my 745 and I'm using 18" Tritons and I've got a bit of spare room. Peter's got Wilwoods on his 744 ITE race car and he's using custom 17" Kodiak wheels, and he's VERY close.

Matt Dupuis

03-24-2006, 04:26 PM

Actually, they'll be covered with 16" MASItaly wheels...;-)

MASItaly... right.

I don't think you can use 16" wheels. I have Wilwood 4-pot calipers on my 745 and I'm using 18" Tritons and I've got a bit of spare room. Peter's got Wilwoods on his 744 ITE race car and he's using custom 17" Kodiak wheels, and he's VERY close.

Yeah, I'm not sure 16" wheels can be used either, at least on anything larger than 12" rotors, and I seriously doubt we'll be able to get the calipers close enough to the axle centerline to use 11.75" rotors, but we'll see I guess.

Wilwood's site says 6.81" outside radius for the 4 or 6 pots on 12.19" rotors, plus at least 1/4" of clearance, means you'll need rims with an inside diameter of 14" near where the rim goes. I haven't actually measured these wheels nor have I measured the 17s on my car, so I can't be sure. That's why we'll be testing them before we say anything quotable!

Volvord

03-24-2006, 04:51 PM

MASItaly... right.

Yeah, I'm not sure 16" wheels can be used either, at least on anything larger than 12" rotors, and I seriously doubt we'll be able to get the calipers close enough to the axle centerline to use 11.75" rotors, but we'll see I guess.

Wilwood's site says 6.81" outside radius for the 4 or 6 pots on 12.19" rotors, plus at least 1/4" of clearance, means you'll need rims with an inside diameter of 14" near where the rim goes. I haven't actually measured these wheels nor have I measured the 17s on my car, so I can't be sure. That's why we'll be testing them before we say anything quotable!

Initial measurments and rough test fitting indicate that 16" may work as they measure slightly more than 14.5" inside diameter, but as we all know measurments vs actual can definitely vary

Stereophile33

03-24-2006, 06:06 PM

Matt, my apologies if this is off topic, if it is and you deem it so I can delete it out. But is there no interest in a wilwood setup for 240's because there is the R-setup and or the rx-7 deal?

I don't want mazda parts on my car and I would prefer lighter weight calipers than the s60r calipers....

Just wishing and dreaming of a wilwood setup for 240's

Matt Dupuis

03-24-2006, 07:33 PM

Well it's not exactly off-topic, and it's certainly doable. In fact, if I hadn't done the R stuff I would be "engineering" a Wilwood kit for my own car. Once the 700/900 kits are out, I'll be looking at doing a kit for the Willwoods on 240s, but I certainly don't want to tread on SVR's toes since that's where their market is right now. In either case, it's low on the priority scale. In fact, Wilwoods for 122/1800s are the next things to come out.

But from having held both of them in my hands, the Wilwood calipers aren't THAT much lighter than the Rs. The rotors sure are, but the inertial energy difference isn't that great 'cause the steel R hubs aren't that far from the axis, and all the weight savings of the Wilwoods are near the center. The unsprung weight is probably a couple pounds different, which is substantial, but mass in the braking system isn't always bad...

GTJordan

04-04-2006, 09:01 PM

I'll be testing them under my Migla Milla's ;)

Jordan

hockey930

04-05-2006, 12:12 PM

I am curious if the willwood kit would be able to bolt to a 700 series strut tube or is this going to involve swtching to a 200 series strut tube like the svr brackets? I am looking for bigger brakes and coilovers so this will determine what coilover setup I get.
thanks
Eamonn

Matt Dupuis

04-05-2006, 02:25 PM

They wouldn't be for a 700 if you had to switch to a 240 tube now, would they?

hockey930

04-05-2006, 04:55 PM

no, however I didn't know if you were planning to sell a whole kit that maybe included the strut tube instead of a bracket (as I assume the bracket for the R's calipers is not possible to make). Now I know.
Eamonn

acbarnett

04-06-2006, 10:26 AM

In a perfect world I'd like R calipers and rotors to keep things volvo looking.

I'm wondering if the willwood calipers all use the same mount setup, and whether it would be possible to get the hat and adapter pieces and go with a larger 6-pot caliper and larger rotors to boot. The 940 is a heavy car and I have enough traction to make use of that much braking power.

245gti

04-06-2006, 12:22 PM

Wilwood calipers use 4 different mounts. One is the standard 3 1/2" tab mount. Another is a wider one...I believe it's 5 1/4" tab mount. The other two are radial mounts which mount at right angles to the tab mounts. Obviuosly they require a competely different type of adapter. There are two dimensions there too. One is wide...about 7". The other is around 5". The exact dimensions are on the Wilwood site...

acbarnett

04-06-2006, 01:59 PM

I would be really interested if we could get an adapter for the 6-pot calipers and the 14" rotors

I'm sure that it would blow the pants off the R setup for the same money, with more bling to boot...

245gti

04-06-2006, 02:36 PM

I would be really interested if we could get an adapter for the 6-pot calipers and the 14" rotors

I'm sure that it would blow the pants off the R setup for the same money, with more bling to boot...

...provided your wheels will clear those big calipers sitting on top of those big rotors... The "SL6R for 14" rotors" calipers need 7.75" radius to clear a 14" rotor. That means you need at least 15 1/2" inside your wheels. They are also available only in a radial style mount.

You also need to consider how much caliper/piston is too much. You still need to maintain some reasonable balance between front and rear braking power. Putting monster rotors and monster piston area calipers on the front will provide plenty of whoa...provided they don't skid. If they do, and they will, are your rear brakes even working? Granted, the rears don't provide a huge portion of the stopping power in a stock set-up but they provide some. Get those big calipers and some sticky brake pads and it'll stand on its nose, no doubt. The rears probably won't even get any heat into them...

I'll be running an adjustable brake bias valve on the 122 to try and get some balanced braking because I may be running the SL6R calipers I just picked up on eBay. Even the FSL (Forged Billet Superlite 4-pistons) calipers I have will be too much front brake for the car...

acbarnett

04-06-2006, 08:07 PM

I'd plan on doing the rear brakes too, and I have 17" peggies on the car right now

qwkswede

04-07-2006, 08:48 AM

I have another question comparing the R brakes and something truly race ready like a wilwood. Can someone shed some light on the differences in rotor options available with an aluminum hat/bolt on rotor vs. the S60R rotor. In my head, the big advantages of Race rotors in any diameter are: 1. they are very thick and very very vented. 2. often floating in their attachemnt to the hat. This allows them to take alot of heat, dissipate alot of heat, and not warp when they are glowing. Also, the floating design helps prevent odd side loads on the rotor/hat assembly while cornering. I have been on the track enough to know that while calipers are partially important for good braking. It is really the durability and heat shedding ability of the Rotor that is really important. If the rotors aren't super hot, then the pads and calipers will stay cool too. For crying out loud, 1977 Porche 911s came with floating front rotors.

How thick is this S60R rotor, how expensive compared to a 1.25" rotor from coleman or some race supplier, and any other engineering plusses of the race stuff?

Well it's not exactly off-topic, and it's certainly doable. In fact, if I hadn't done the R stuff I would be "engineering" a Wilwood kit for my own car. Once the 700/900 kits are out, I'll be looking at doing a kit for the Willwoods on 240s, but I certainly don't want to tread on SVR's toes since that's where their market is right now. In either case, it's low on the priority scale. In fact, Wilwoods for 122/1800s are the next things to come out.

But from having held both of them in my hands, the Wilwood calipers aren't THAT much lighter than the Rs. The rotors sure are, but the inertial energy difference isn't that great 'cause the steel R hubs aren't that far from the axis, and all the weight savings of the Wilwoods are near the center. The unsprung weight is probably a couple pounds different, which is substantial, but mass in the braking system isn't always bad...

Volvord

04-07-2006, 12:24 PM

There are two main but opposing thoughts when it comes to race type rotors, The first is exactly as you mention, maximum mass and cooling efficiency. This is achieved through size, thickness and rotor venting design. Used in heavy vehicles where a lot of braking is required

The second is minimizing mass both unsprung and rotational. Used where the vehicle is light and braking is not overly demanding. Narrower, lighter, drilled or scalloped rotors that in 11.25” diameter weigh only 6 pounds

Wilwood offers many rotors designs, sizes and mounting styles. As a comparison the stock 700 series Volvo 11.25" rotor weighs about 12 lbs, the Wilwood GT-48 12.19" on aluminium hats also weigh 12 lbs, bigger, larger and weigh the same.

For examples of the variety of rotors available at Wilwood see:
http://www.wilwood.com/Products/002-Rotors/index.asp

Matt Dupuis

04-07-2006, 12:40 PM

I've got the R rotors on my 240 right now, and boy are they heavy. I haven't weighed them but I certainly can for you. Their vents aren't conventional radial or even directional radial such as the Wilwoods - instead they seem to be a bunch of wing-shaped sections inside the rotor. Just spinning the rotor by hand on the hub, you can feel a decent breeze coming out the vents. The multiple vents give LOTS of surface area inside and reduce weight, so they should shed heat quite effectively.

Having said that, there isn't alot of depth to them. The Wilwood calipers would stick out past the wheel/rotor interface surface even more than the R's do, if you used those rotors with the Wilwood calipers.

BTW - the R rotors are 1.25" thick, IIRC. I'll measure them while I weigh them, but don't hold your breath for either dimension 'cause I'm kinda busy and won't be dealing with the front end on my car for about 2 weeks.

The floating rotors are nice, and so are 6 piston calipers, but I think the main focus here is to use components that most of the people here will buy and use, and can afford. Wilwood FSL 4 piston calipers are about $100 each, brand new, and the bolt-on rotors are much less expensive than the floating version. Granted, the SL-6 calipers follow the exact same mounting dimensions, so they can be substituted for the FSL-4s, but the piston area on the smallest SL-6 is still too much for the average 700/900, IMHO. You'd have to upgrade the rear caliper and master cylinder at the same time, unless you've got a heavier V8 up front like Ian and I do.

acbarnett

04-07-2006, 12:44 PM

what do SL-6's go for?

Matt Dupuis

04-07-2006, 01:13 PM

I would be really interested if we could get an adapter for the 6-pot calipers and the 14" rotors

I won't be designing brackets for 14" rotors. If you want them, we can talk about design and one-off machining costs, but I'd have to be an idiot to think that enough people are going to buy those to make it worthwhile.

Remember, the stock rear brakes PROBABLY won't be able to keep up with the fronts even with 12" front rotors. Going to 13s and good strong calipers are going to render the rears near useless. Upgrading the rears is probably going to require more fluid flow, so a larger master cylinder will be needed. Only one or two people on here are serious enough to do all that and pay for it, and they're smart enough to figure out and build this stuff on their own.

I won't be doing this to my own 700, most likely, so I won't be able to R&D all this stuff directly. I'll be using my car for test fits, but I won't be able to verify the correct piston diameters for proper brake balance. Ian will be giving me feedback on his setup before anyone here will get the opportunity to order a kit from me, and even if his setup is 100% perfect, unless you duplicate it EXACTLY, piston diameter and pad selection will be an educated guess.

what do SL-6's go for?

I don't have the site in my favourites here at work, but I think they were in the $450 each range.

Unregistered

04-07-2006, 01:56 PM

what do SL-6's go for?

New SL-6 with standard pistons are about $350-$400 ea, add the Thermolock Pistons and you can add about $200-$250 ea

I bought mine on EBay with Thermolock for $460 pr. so they are to be had at a somewhat reasonable price, but I could have got FSL-4 new for half the price

Wilwood have a complete pricelist on their site www.wilwood.com

Volvord

04-07-2006, 01:57 PM

Sorry forgot to log in, it is my post is above

245gti

04-07-2006, 03:46 PM

what do SL-6's go for?

If you take advantage of some eBay sellers' stupidity you can get them for cheap:-P

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8050859526&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWN%3AIT&rd=1

Oh yeah...he forgot to mention in the listing title that Wilwood SL6-R calipers were included:omg:

Poik

04-07-2006, 04:32 PM

Wow Dale, that guy got pwned.

Tha VZA

04-07-2006, 04:58 PM

Dale doesn't pwn people

he just looks for good deals

there's a difference ;-)

ciao

Matt Dupuis

04-07-2006, 05:12 PM

No, that guy got pwned. Dale just didn't rub it in.

Tha VZA

04-07-2006, 06:03 PM

Dale just didn't rub it in.

and that's the difference ;-)

ciao

Matt Dupuis

04-13-2006, 08:18 PM

A preview: prototypes for Ian's car, to be used with the NOS MVP hats. These seem to ALMOST fit Hydras - I mean, it's within millimeters of fitting - so the production versions will have a touch more caliper offset and deeper hats.

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c178/mattdupuis/Wilwood700bracketbottom.jpg

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c178/mattdupuis/Wilwood700brackettop.jpg

And the rotor hat it works with:

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c178/mattdupuis/MVPhat.jpg

945ti

04-13-2006, 08:46 PM

Fitting 16" wheels with dish would be cool. IF one could really slam those rotors and calipers in that would be awesome. Unfortunately I have other brake issues that need sorting before I think about wilwoods.

Matt Dupuis

04-13-2006, 09:09 PM

Well I'm going to try the finished product with Hydras, Geminis, and Galaxies, supplied by members of the Calgary group, and see how feasable it is to fit them on all three. The outer diameter of the caliper doesn't seem to be a problem at all with 12.19" rotors, as you'd expect since 11.25" rotors fit fine under 15" wheels... It's just the age-old problem of wide caliper + spokes = clang.

hudson

04-14-2006, 09:41 AM

... In fact, Wilwoods for 122/1800s are the next things to come out.

I can't speak for the amount of demand, but for the 140s would be nice aswell.

Matt Dupuis

04-14-2006, 10:13 AM

It's not like we chose 1800/122s randomly - it's because one of us is actually putting some on a 122, and they're close enough to 1800s that all pieces should cross over. Nobody in our little local crew has a 140 to work on. I suppose the next time we find one in PYP we could grab a spindle and hub, but that only tells us part of the story - the rest is what has to happen to the wheels to make them fit over the brakes, and what has to happen to the rear brakes to keep things balanced.

As has been said before, if you want something custom, we can talk about cost and requirements.

245gti

04-14-2006, 12:12 PM

I've got a pair of 140 spindles and hubs under the bench in my garage, remember?:badboy:

GTJordan

04-14-2006, 05:05 PM

If you have the prototype set up by May long, you can test fit my Migla Millas also

Jordan

245gti

04-15-2006, 01:49 PM

Just a teaser for the 120/1800 crowd...:badboy:
2009

2010

2011

2012

Getting there... We've got the hat thickness and caliper adapter worked out. Now it's a matter of getting some cnc work done and bolting it all together...

One side benefit is that the rotor hat is actually a spacer as well. It's over 20mm thick so it's going to be an adapter style spacer which means there will be options with wheels. My wheels are 42mm offset so FWD wheels will be simple. RWD wheels will require a different hat...

growley

04-27-2006, 09:37 PM

If you take advantage of some eBay sellers' stupidity you can get them for cheap:-P

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8050859526&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWN%3AIT&rd=1

Oh yeah...he forgot to mention in the listing title that Wilwood SL6-R calipers were included:omg:

:omg::omg::omg::omg:

Matt Dupuis

05-30-2006, 09:49 AM

Well I said it would take a while, and I aim not to disappoint! Dale and I might need to start looking for another machinist: our current one is a great guy, but has some really big, demanding clients that he just can't ignore, and all the little, custom stuff gets pushed to the rear. He's a month late on some of our stuff, and he hasn't even gotten the prototype caliper adapters built yet. Then again, it's his "busy season" and he's also attempting a business relocation at the same time, so we can't expect miracles.

This is why there's no "feeler" thread yet. Stay patient, everybody... we're not letting this go anytime soon.

245gti

05-30-2006, 12:26 PM

I did get my rotor hat/spacers for the 122 yesterday but the clearances were too tight for the hub so they're getting fixed today. Tonight I shall take some pictures of the finished product, in it's final, intended location...

Agreed with Matt about possibly looking for another machinist. The awesome part about this guy is he is a car guy so he understands and can visualize most things we want to do and may suggest ways to improve on our design. Some technogeek with that can run a CNC mill or lathe may not be so helpful if they have no idea what our particular application is about. But...we also may get our product in a more timely fashion...

GTJordan

06-01-2006, 07:01 PM

Pictaaars!!!

Jordan

245gti

06-01-2006, 09:04 PM

http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=72094

:-D :cool:

Pops122

06-04-2006, 11:57 AM

I can't speak for the amount of demand, but for the 140s would be nice aswell.

Matt & Dale

the original calipers on my 69 122 are from a 140, when I got new used from Len at Schram's to fit the 1800 hubs they were the same 140 calipers, so what ever brackets you come up with the calipers should fit a 140, maybe just the hat needs to be different for the different cars, ie the spacing for the caliper mounts are the same from early 122's to 93 240's.

this just leads to to many questions first thing in the morning........

Matt Dupuis

06-04-2006, 11:49 PM

Matt & Dale

the original calipers on my 69 122 are from a 140, when I got new used from Len at Schram's to fit the 1800 hubs they were the same 140 calipers, so what ever brackets you come up with the calipers should fit a 140, maybe just the hat needs to be different for the different cars, ie the spacing for the caliper mounts are the same from early 122's to 93 240's.

this just leads to to many questions first thing in the morning........

Sorry, Martin - the brackets to mount the calipers completely replace the ones stock on the 122/1800, that bolt to the hub. I have to admit that I don't know the 140 all that well, but I think the caliper mounts are cast into the upright, aren't they? If not, then possibly they'd work or if not exactly, the same principle can be applied.

Matt Dupuis

07-01-2006, 10:09 PM

Update:

Hey there, little fella!

http://www.calgaryvolvoclub.com/gallery/d/3448-2/Brake+Hydra.jpg

SL6 calipers required a 5mm spacer to clear, FSL4s would fit just fine without the spacer.

http://www.calgaryvolvoclub.com/gallery/d/3406-2/Brake+1a+bracket.jpg

The bracket itself. Beefy, clears everything, but requires a bit of grinding on the balljoint:

http://www.calgaryvolvoclub.com/gallery/d/3436-2/Brake+5b+caliper+bracket.jpg

I may try and reconfigure the bracket to get that little bit of clearance needed.

More pix here:

http://www.calgaryvolvoclub.com/gallery/v/Volvord/?g2_page=4

245gti

07-01-2006, 10:17 PM

Looks great Ian! Now get those MasItaly wheels on there so you can see the damn things...:-P

Yes...I know it was Matt that posted...It's Ian's (volvord) car.

Volvord

07-01-2006, 11:00 PM

Have to do the brale lines yet.
I know that MAS wheels look awesome with these brakes, I just wanted to show that they will fit with standard 16" Hydra's

More pics and an update on their performance very soon

hockey930

07-02-2006, 02:50 AM

I am getting excited :-)
Eamonn

Volvord

07-02-2006, 12:10 PM

As requested here is a pic of the brake set-up with 16" x 7.5" MASItaly wheels.

http://www.calgaryvolvoclub.com/gallery/d/3449-1/brakes+masitaly.jpg

GTJordan

07-02-2006, 12:53 PM

I'm looking forward to this. Of course they had to come out when money is tight :(

Jordan

hockey930

07-02-2006, 01:00 PM

boner..... are they for sale now??? I am way to interested in this.
Eamonn

245gti

07-02-2006, 01:24 PM

There are still a couple of things to work out before we offer them to the general public. The first is the price. The second is how much of a "kit" we want to offer. These brackets were made specifically for this application. It's a 740 with specific rotors and rotor adapter hats and Wilwood SL-6 calipers.

Ideally we would supply the rotor hat and the bracket. It would be up to the individual buyer to source the rest. I believe this bracket would also work with the Wilwood FSL (Forged Billet Superlite) calipers which are 4 piston calipers and are considerably less expensive than the SL-6 calipers. The bracket is specifically for 12.19" rotors and would require a minimum 16" wheel to clear. As Ian/Matt said, they will clear Hydras with a 5 mm spacer. We have yet to test fit any other wheels other than the MASItaly wheels.

GTJordan

07-02-2006, 01:40 PM

Volvord

07-02-2006, 02:54 PM

Hats and brackets for the 4 pistons would be nice. What about brake lines though? I would really like to be able to plug my already braided lines into the wilwood? Are they a different thread?

Jordan

This is another component we are working on. As it stands the braided lines for stock 700 brake will NOT work with this conversion, they will be too short. We will be working on the best solution for brake lines for the kit.

GTJordan

07-02-2006, 03:08 PM

That could be a problem for me. They would have to be some DOT approved line. I am going to take my car through a DOT inspection when I'm finished building it.

Jordan

Volvord

07-02-2006, 03:51 PM

That could be a problem for me. They would have to be some DOT approved line. I am going to take my car through a DOT inspection when I'm finished building it.

Jordan

This is not a problem. Russel & Earl's both have DOT stainless steel brake lines.

GTJordan

07-02-2006, 04:23 PM

You guys are my hero's.... GROUP HUG!

Jordan

Body Massage

07-03-2006, 07:24 AM

I'm just starting (again) my 780 project, and I pretty much need all new brakes. I know it's been asked before, and it'll be asked again until they're out, but any ETA on the kit? :-D

Matt Dupuis

07-03-2006, 11:13 AM

I haven't discussed this with Dale just yet. We have a price on the current adapters but not yet on the rotor hats. I want to get up to Ian's to see first-hand how these things fit and where I can make improvements before ordering a production run.

Dale and I are investigating another machine shop ATM, which might bring down prices slightly.

So no, there's too much in the air right now to come up with an ETA, sorry.

Body Massage

07-03-2006, 11:53 AM

That's cool, I have a lot of work ahead of me on my 780 as it is, so not having calipers won't hurt. The rears are frozen so bad I don't actually have to step on the brakes to stop! ;-)

thelostartof

07-16-2006, 04:21 PM

oh hell so they fit on hydra's ... which means they should fit my gemini's ... damnit ican't wait .. must save $

hockey930

07-16-2006, 04:46 PM

I am really excited for these, the volvo needs better brakes mine the suck.
Eamonn

245gti

07-16-2006, 07:31 PM

Ian's first impressions of the big brakes are that they are amazing. I'm sure he'll post here to expound on that...

Some issues that aren't as big as we first thought. The Wilwood calipers use a 1/8" NPT fitting. The common fitting to use is an NPT to AN-3 adapter, usually a 90 degree fitting. The issue was braided brake lines and the fitting on the end opposite the caliper end. On my 122 I used an AN-3 to standard brakeline female fitting adapter and ran new hard lines with the correct male fitting and a flexible braided stainless line with AN-3 fittings on both ends. It is my understanding that braided lines are available with an AN-3 fitting on one end and a 10mm bubble flare fitting on the other. Those will bolt right in. We're checking on sources and deciding if those lines will be part of the kit.

More to come...

Volvord

07-17-2006, 10:35 AM

I wanted to put a few miles on the Wilwood's before commenting, over the weekend I put about 750km on the car so consider these comments preliminary.

First the installation, the brackets Matt & Dale designed are true works of art, they fit perfect and simply "bolt” into place. Although this is a simple "bolt-in" installation it does take some work, all the bolts connecting the rotor to the hat are drilled and lock wired.

http://www.calgaryvolvoclub.com/gallery/d/3418-2/Brake+2b+rotor.jpg

The calliper bracket and callipers bolt on using the appropriate grade and length of bolts. As Dale mentioned plumbing the hydraulics is straight forward, using Earl fittings, a 90 deg 1/8" NTP to AN3, AN3 steel braided hose, and an AN3 to 10mm bubble flare adapter. Earls does make a DOT brake line with the correct fitting that I will install later (this is usually not a stocked item at speed shops). Hose routing is critical and will require us to design and fabricate a bracket keep the hose away from the wheel.

http://www.calgaryvolvoclub.com/gallery/d/3439-2/Brake+6a+caliper.jpg

http://www.calgaryvolvoclub.com/gallery/d/3445-2/Brake+6c+caliper.jpg

In operation the pedal travel does not increase, even though the stock ABS master cylinder is supplying 12 pistons in the front rather than the stock 4. Driving impressions are amazing, pedal feel is firm and the brakes are easy to modulate. With the stock brakes, obtaining front wheel lock-up requires a LOT of effort, to the point of the seat back creaking under the strain. With the Wilwood's just increasing the pedal pressure slightly can induce lock-up (and this is with 225-50/16 Yokohama Advan Intermediate tires). The performance is incredible, smooth even braking that pull your eyeballs out of their sockets.

http://www.calgaryvolvoclub.com/gallery/d/3513-2/Leth_4.jpg

The brake bias has definitely shifted forward but not dangerously. To balance the system we will be working on increasing clamping forces on the rear brakes, probably by investigating a 4 piston rear calliper conversion.

After the brakes seat in a bit more I will post another update.

hockey930

07-17-2006, 11:35 AM

I am getting very excited....possibly sexualy.
That truely looks amazing I can't wait.
Eamonn

thelostartof

07-17-2006, 03:56 PM

very nice

i must of missed it but what was teh price range? AND what kind of pads can be used? is there is semi generic pad that fits? so that a company like mintex might have something that fits?

and any more pics of the brake line routing?

Volvord

07-17-2006, 04:12 PM

Wilwood make a wide selection of pads with various friction materials, some other companies also make pads that fit. Because these are competition calipers there is a real selection, but most are designed for racing, where noise and dust are not an issue. I am using the Wilwood Q series pads that are designed for street use, low noise and low dust... so far I am impressed, very litle dust on mags after 750km and what there was cleaned off easy

Here is some info on the pads available from Wilwood
http://brakepads.wilwood.com/02-graphs/ahjbc.gif

http://brakepads.wilwood.com/02-graphs/eqbp10.gif

If you notice I am using the pads with the lowest Cf, I can see that the race compounds could be hard to modulate on a street application because of their much higher Cf

hockey930

07-17-2006, 04:58 PM

I just looked in to the sl-6's thoes are quite some pricey calipers, I am going to be looking at the alternative sfl4's. If anyone have a good sl-6 hook up please let me know.
Eamonn

245gti

07-17-2006, 06:38 PM

I just looked in to the sl-6's thoes are quite some pricey calipers, I am going to be looking at the alternative sfl4's. If anyone have a good sl-6 hook up please let me know.
Eamonn

I've got a set of SL6-R calipers that will be for sale. The problem is they're a radial mount which means an extra adapter bracket to make them work...

The 122 will have some "A" coumpund pads initially. We'll see how sticky they actually are. I understand the BP-10 and Q compound pads are both designed for street use. They can be had for relatively cheap if you watch eBay...

I understand the friction co-efficient of these pads is far higher than any regular street use pad meaning two things. Easier lock-up and harder on rotors. The good part? Wilwood 11.75" rotors are $35 each on eBay...

FWIW I got about 6 sets of pads (4 pads per set) for about $40. They're all slightly used. The set I have mounted have about 99% of the pad left...

Mom'sRide

07-18-2006, 06:47 PM

So are the brackets only excepting the two calipers mentioned, or would something like this work too...
WILWOOD GTIII FRONT DISC BRAKE CALIPERS, PART #120-2950-RS AND 120-2951-RS AND ARE 4 PISTON CALIPERS, WITH THE PISTONS BEING 1.750" AND 1.875" AND CAN ACCEPT 1.250" AND UP TO 1.38" THICK ROTORS.

What others would fit, if any?

Volvord

07-18-2006, 07:07 PM

Any caliper with 3 1/5" lug spacing matching the following specs.
These basic specs apply to the FSL4 & 6 Wilwood but may also work with other brands and models

http://www.wilwood.com/Products/001-Calipers/010-SL6/dwg.gif

245gti

07-18-2006, 08:20 PM

There are a lot of "standards" when it comes to brakes...I'm finding out. It seems that caliper bolt spacing seems to be pretty standard at 3 1/2". A lot of other dimensions seem to be close as well. The one thing we don't have yet is the actual dimensions of the Volvo stuff. Having a drawing of the Volvo caliper like the one Ian just posted of a Wilwood caliper would let you figure out pretty easily if the inboard/outboard spacing is correct and if the caliper will sit to far out on the rotor etc...

GTJordan

07-18-2006, 08:32 PM

Hmmm one more question....

Can you retain ABS?

Jordan

Volvord

07-18-2006, 10:36 PM

Hmmm one more question....

Can you retain ABS?

Jordan

Simple answer .... YES

thelostartof

07-19-2006, 12:23 AM

if you need OEM caliper info i'd talk to frostburner as he might be able to help you out with some top secret stuff if he's in a good mood

sgtrauksauff

08-03-2006, 04:03 PM

there used to be a page, and I can't find it anymore, as I've reformatted twice since I used it, that was I think part of brembo's site, but it had pretty much all of that info for every rotor that they make. Rotor thickness, distance from back rotor surface to mounting area, distance from front rotor surface to top of hat, centerbore, PCD, vane area thickness, etc... very handy, as I was searching for something that would work on one of my other cars...

--sarge

NYC_I_ROLL

08-05-2006, 05:09 PM

I'm in like sin for these wow they look great behind a 16 inch wheel.

nohbudi

08-06-2006, 06:26 AM

I love you guys... and perfect timing... my front brakes may have another 5k left in them... about 2 months of driving...

Considering the price of parts, the initial investment cost will most likely be worth it. and give me a good reason to go through the system replacing all the seals... so I can run that new fluid.... dot 5 me thinks?

BlaqueandBlue

08-07-2006, 05:11 PM

I knew I had seen what you were talking about. Brembo's site is kind of convoluted, things are hard to find... here's where to find them, I hope the link works.
http://www.brembo.com/CatalogoBrembo/Templates/SearchGray.aspx?NRMODE=Published&NRORIGINALURL=%2fENG%2fAfterMarketBrakes%2fBrembo% 2bCatalogues%2fSearchCars%2ehtm&NRNODEGUID=%7b17D7BCC8-5414-40CA-9D35-30F3CABF4BA3%7d&NRCACHEHINT=NoModifyGuest
That should show a search page, then click the specific links below for a VERY detailed drawing. Looks like greek to me, but you guys are obviously firing on a couple more cylinders.

sgtrauksauff

08-07-2006, 11:58 PM

That's the one!! the interface changed a little since I saw it last, but some pretty cool shiznit!!! Thanks!!

(this is for the 84-87 w/ Bendix front, w/ 15" wheel):

And a Link (http://brembo.com/catalogobrembo/DetailPages/discDetail.aspx?idBU=1&idLingua=1&PartNumber=09.4861.10)

http://www.brembo.com/CatalogoBrembo/DetailPages/images/tech/c09-486110.jpg

Volvord

08-08-2006, 01:02 PM

Just got back from the Pac NW meet, driving 2400km and really had the chance to "test" the brakes. They are unbelievable, the stopping power will pull the eyeballs out of your head!!!

Now that we have had a chance to really test the brackets and overall set-up Dale will be moving onto a production version which he will make available on T'Bricks. The SL-6 calipers are definitely the top end, but their cost (about $650+ each) will make them out of the reach of most people (unless you score a great deal on EBay as I did) but the brackets will also fit the Wilwood FSL (Forged Superlite 4 piston) which I believe will provide unmatched brakes at a much more reasonable price (about $160 per caliper). We will also be deciding what rotors to use, mine has the 12.19" x 1.25" but again these cost about $150 ea whereas the slightly smaller 11.75" x 1.25" rotors are available for $35 and the difference in stopping power would be minimal.

This upgrade is easy with the kit that will be put together, has options on different rotors, calipers and pad materials. Parts are available world wide for Wilwood products and finally this end result will impress even the most skeptical. I feel my car is close to being the best complete package I can imagine with the power, handling and brakes.

As an added bonus the "Q" pad material I am using is easy on the rotors, quiet, and produces almost no dust.

245gti

08-08-2006, 01:53 PM

In a similar vein to Ian's post, the Wilwood setup on the 122 performed flawlessly. Although pedal effort can be high for a panic stop, I never felt it was ever going to not stop or slow down in time. I think the most impressive aspect to these brakes is their amazing ability to pull a car down from high speed with no drama. On the same stretch of road, Ian and I both brought our cars down from 170km/h+ in an instant. I was behind Ian and could smell his brakes. I don't think mine even got that hot but, of course, my car is almost 1000 lbs lighter than Ian's too...

As Ian said; braking power that will pull your eyes from their sockets...

I was using Polymatrix A compound pads and while the grip is nothing short of amazing at all temperatures, the dusting is pretty severe. In fact, not only is there brake dust caked pretty thickly on my wheels, there is brake dust all down the side and back of my car. Definitely a track use compound unless you like scrubbing brake dust off your wheels every time you stop for gas...

All in all...couldn't be more impressed with the setup...

Body Massage

08-08-2006, 01:59 PM

so.... eta? :-P

thelostartof

08-08-2006, 02:13 PM

and what was cost of these brackets? mark me down for a set

and great work guys

BlaqueandBlue

08-08-2006, 06:05 PM

Questions from a dumb guy:
You said there were two rotor options, would the different sizes require a different bracket for the caliper to sit on? (Wouldn't the pads sit differently in relation to the smaller rotor?)

You made mention earlier of rotor hats being necessary, how specific are the requirements of the rotor? Obviously, I don't want to grab the kit you guys are assembling, then buy the wrong rotors and find out the hats don't fit.

Within the scope of your experience, you have only a few wheel fitments. Are most (if not the iPD Voxx's I'm thinking of buying) 16" wheels going to accomodate the 11.75's I'm thinking of buying? And would the 12.19" rotors necessitate a larger (17") wheel? I don't know how standard the inside diameter of wheels are, and whether one set of 16"s will swallow the 11.75" and another won't.

Appreciate any input. And I gotta agree with everyone else, this is one hell of an awesome project!

Matt Dupuis

08-08-2006, 07:17 PM

Alright:

The caliper brackets that are on Ian's car are designed for the 12.19" x 1.25" rotor. Different ones would be required for the 11.75" rotor, for sure, and they haven't been designed yet. Dale's got 11.75" rotors on his 122, which is a totally different beast.

The 12.19" rotors and 6 piston calipers that are on Ian's 700 fit under Hydras and MASItaly 16" wheels, though a thin spacer is required due to the added width of the 6 piston calipers. 4 piston calipers would fit just fine without a spacer.

The rotor hats that Ian's using are old pieces that I was going to redesign anyway. I could certainly make the hats and brackets deeper to allow 6 piston calipers to fit behind Hydras, and I was thinking of doing so anyway.

As far as a "kit" goes, it depends on what people want: I could make a caliper bracket for 13" rotors if folks want to use 17s, and I could make a caliper bracket for 11.75" rotors if people would prefer to KNOW they'd fit under most 16" wheels. Or I could stick with the 12.19" rotors and people could know they fit under many 16" wheels, but have to be careful with the wheels they choose. I'm not interested in making 3 different brackets, so I'd prefer to nail it down to one design.

BlaqueandBlue

08-08-2006, 09:28 PM

Not that this is necessarily democratic and not to demand anything, but for my own wallet's sake, I'd prefer a rig for the 4 piston calipers mentioned earlier and the modest 11.75" rotors. As previously stated, this is hardly a sacrifice and under all but the most grueling conditions is still ample brakes. I'm on the cheap, unfortunately. (Truth is though, even if that isn't an option for you all, I'd probably just pinch pennies for a while 'til I had the cash).

qwkswede

08-08-2006, 11:37 PM

I'd be up for a set of the stuff thats already designed.

There are rotors for 8 bolt hats, 1.25" thick, 12.187 dia for $99 each from Coleman and even $67 for a decent similar sized rotor from stock car products.

A question about Ian's car. Did you guys use solid mounts for the rotor to hat connection or a floating setup?

Volvord

08-08-2006, 11:46 PM

I'd be up for a set of the stuff thats already designed.

There are rotors for 8 bolt hats, 1.25" thick, 12.187 dia for $99 each from Coleman and other race suppliers.

A question about Ian's car. Did you guys use solid mounts for the rotor to hat connection or a floating setup?

The hats we are using are solid bolt mount rather than the floating, as for rotor spec's as you indicated you need diameter, thickness, bolt number and bolt circle diameter, my rotors are 12.19" x 1.25" - 8 bolt x 7" bolt circle diameter

245gti

08-09-2006, 12:02 AM

To add to Ian's post...

Off the shelf rotor hats may not work as is for a number of reasons. Number one is surface thickness. Not that it's vital but it places your wheel a specific distance from the hub. When were talking about mm of clearance at the caliper, wheel positioning is vital. Number two is rotor positioning. The position the rotor sits is vital as the brackets place the caliper where the rotor is supposed to be. Again, being a couple of mm off isn't a good thing. Number three is...will they sell them undrilled? Assuming everything else is right, you still need to drill them for the correct bolt pattern. And...I haven't seen a Coleman rotor hat that is a 8X7" bolt pattern. Mind you...that's just on eBay...

qwkswede

08-09-2006, 02:37 AM

Oh, thats cool. I was fine with custom hats. I figured that was a nececesity. But I'm assuming the actual rotors are your standard 8 bolt 7 inch center design that tons of racing cars use. That would make for easy replacement. And they are not nearly as expensive in the 12-3/16 size as you guys originally posted.

Calipers to fit the brackets can be bought new for under $200 ea. for 4 piston wilwoods. And The rotors are about $70 each. So, somwhere in the neighborhood of $500-$600 would get you the needed calipers and rotors in brand new condition. Then add in whatever you guys will be charging for hats and brackets. Thats one heeall of a brake conversion.,

To add to Ian's post...

Off the shelf rotor hats may not work as is for a number of reasons. Number one is surface thickness. Not that it's vital but it places your wheel a specific distance from the hub. When were talking about mm of clearance at the caliper, wheel positioning is vital. Number two is rotor positioning. The position the rotor sits is vital as the brackets place the caliper where the rotor is supposed to be. Again, being a couple of mm off isn't a good thing. Number three is...will they sell them undrilled? Assuming everything else is right, you still need to drill them for the correct bolt pattern. And...I haven't seen a Coleman rotor hat that is a 8X7" bolt pattern. Mind you...that's just on eBay...

Unregistered

08-15-2006, 02:58 AM

I have been searching for an AFFORDABLE big brake solution for my 86 760 turbo for a long time. The hang up was the lack of a made for the purpose hat that would position the rotor properly to clear under 16" wheels (specifically the Hydras I already have). For me, affordable means I don't have to buy new wheels and tires as part of the upgrade, especially since I am really happy with what I have now in that department. The other problem was fabricating a bracket to mount whatever calipers in the right location. I regard that as the easier of the two problems.

So, now you have done it, or almost done it (as in made a kit available). My preference is for what you have on your test car: the biggest rotors that will fit under 16" wheels and a bracket that will mount Wildwood Calipers (I'm for the affordable 4 piston version.) That fits my original plan perfectly.

My feeling is that anyone who has or wants to buy 17" wheels, can use the stock 13 inch "R" rotors and whatever calipers they prefer. This is a proven, done swap. Your kit is for those of us who want to keep our total investment under $1,000 and use our existing wheels and tires.

rgalgon

08-20-2006, 12:07 PM

I'd love to have something that would fit under my Hydras which are my winter wheels (I run Eiker's in the summer)

phillazenby740t

08-20-2006, 05:45 PM

I'd love to have something that would fit under my Hydras which are my winter wheels (I run Eiker's in the summer)

I would be in for the whole shabang if it can fit under my hydras! Sleeper baby

Volvord

08-20-2006, 07:38 PM

I would be in for the whole shabang if it can fit under my hydras! Sleeper baby

They will fit under Hydra's!!!
The standard FSL calipers (Forged Super Light 4 piston) I think will fit without spacers where the SL6 need 5mm spacers

http://www.calgaryvolvoclub.com/gallery/d/3448-2/Brake+Hydra.jpg

nohbudi

08-21-2006, 03:12 AM

Or idealy, the new hats have 5mm more meat to them... 5mm really isn't much, so I see no reason why anyone would object.

Matt Dupuis

08-21-2006, 09:19 AM

Well the initial thought was to redesign them for the 11.75" rotors and add the 5mm offset, but I still haven't found the time to get up to Ian's to inspect the final installation and make revisions based on anything we find, source up a bunch of 8" round stock and ~1.5" thick plate, go talk to this machinist a friend knows, etc. Probably a winter project, which is why I didn't start this whole thing as a "feeler" thread in FS.

The 11.75" rotors might not leave enough clearance between the adapter/caliper lugs and the strut, without rotating the caliper into an even more stupid-looking position, so the 12.19" rotors might be considered a minimum, with the 13" rotors as a distant future possibility.

BlaqueandBlue

08-31-2006, 01:13 AM

Not that you may know off hand, but venture a guess or maybe you know a member with the 16" Voxx MG wheels from iPd. These are the wheels I will be purchasing if these brakes (the 12.19"s) fit under them. If not, I'll have to find something else they will fit under and that's harder on the wallet. Any info?

Matt Dupuis

08-31-2006, 09:32 AM

No info, sorry. Nobody local to me has these wheels, so we can't try them on Ian's car.

phillazenby740t

08-31-2006, 03:42 PM

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Wilwood-Big-FSL-3-5-mount-Brake-Caliper-NEW_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ33563QQihZ003QQitem Z130021768275QQrdZ1

Would these fit:???: If im not mistaken they are the 6 piston, and ridiculously cheap:omg:

If so i am in for one of these kits, well regardless, im in anyways,

GSWAGON

08-31-2006, 04:03 PM

Volvord

08-31-2006, 05:06 PM

Those are 4 piston callipers (not 6) but will work great with the brackets we are testing...
These are the style of calliper that Dale is using and what we are recommending.

The piston are on those callipers ,1.75" ea, have a total area larger than on my SL6 (6 piston- 1.62", 1.12", 1.12")
The pedal travel & feel I have is excellent but with the larger piston area pedal travel would increase as would clamping pressure

Those callipers are available with 1.75" or 1.62" or 1.38" or 1.25" or 1.12" piston size so there is a good selection ... it is just what you may find at the best price

http://www.wilwood.com/Products/001-Calipers/012-FSL/index.asp

Matt Dupuis

09-01-2006, 09:13 AM

We used the 1.38" pistons on Dale's 122, which is what I'd recommend. The 1.62" pistons would be still quite a bit bigger than the stock ones, meaning even MORE front brake bias in a car that's overly front brake biased.

245gti

09-01-2006, 06:53 PM

Those FSL calipers can be had for under $100 each...just watch eBay. Or...check completed auctions and email the guy that starts them at $74.95. I bought mine for $95 each...

thelostartof

09-01-2006, 07:45 PM

hurry up and start selling the parts we need and then we can start buying up all of those calipers off ebay

NYC_I_ROLL

09-03-2006, 03:41 AM

So needless to say I too am anxiously waiting for the "kit" to be ready but in the mean time I found this site which has brand new wilwood calipers at "cheaper" prices

http://www.hotrodsusa.com/store/calipers.html <= that's the main page

http://www.hotrodsusa.com/store/caliper_fsl.html <=
for the fsl 120-7431 @ 144.95 not bad

of the 3 versions avail @ 1.38" piston size which disc width should we be on a lookout for
1.38" 35,0 mm 1.25"(thick) 31,8 120-7431-R/L right?

Matt Dupuis

09-03-2006, 09:32 AM

12.18" diameter and 1.25" thick is what Ian used, and what's likely the kit will stay designed for.

spongemonster

09-11-2006, 05:32 PM

Ok I ahve to ask I know the offset is different but is there a possibility of putting wilwoods on a 95 960 with the kit? I have a friend who wants to know.

Matt Dupuis

09-11-2006, 06:22 PM

:e-shrug: Got me. I don't think so...

nohbudi

09-12-2006, 12:42 AM

Ok I ahve to ask I know the offset is different but is there a possibility of putting wilwoods on a 95 960 with the kit? I have a friend who wants to know.

95' 960 can use any brake kit available for the 850, and there are quite a few of them, including simply bolting s60r components on to them.

kelley_aj

09-14-2006, 02:53 PM

r we there yet?

Matt Dupuis

09-14-2006, 07:29 PM

No. Sorry. This summer's been retarded, so it's probably going to have to wait 'till winter. Tell ya what, to make it up to you I'll design some rear brake stuff too, okay?

nohbudi

09-14-2006, 10:10 PM

weeeeee

front and rear brakes! 240s don't even have rear brake swaps... woop! vented rear baby.... please please please... and how about building an adapter for a better master cylinder? so we can run a better brake line patern, with a proportioning valve.

phillazenby740t

09-15-2006, 05:55 PM

Good work guys, and if you can make an all around set for 7/9 series you know im down!

Maybe once these hit the market, depending on demand, we could organize a gb to get special pricing on wilwood calipers, im sure wilwood would be willing to offer some kind of group discount, same goes for the rotors.

Since you guys are all very busy, id be willing to help organize it, lemme know

Body Massage

09-17-2006, 09:15 AM

IRS stuff too? :-P

Matt Dupuis

09-17-2006, 03:54 PM

You send an IRS up to me, and yes I might consider it. I don't have one to measure up and nobody I know does, so I guess you lose. Like usual, if you've got an IRS.

Body Massage

09-18-2006, 07:32 AM

aww :-(

Where's ACBAR when you need him? :-P

Matt Dupuis

09-19-2006, 09:32 AM

Where's ACBAR when you need him? :-P
You already ACBAR'd when you mentioned IRS, you bench-braker.

Body Massage

09-19-2006, 02:07 PM

:lol:

I think I recall hearing that the IRS brakes are better than the solid-axle stock brakes anyways. :e-shrug:

IRS still rules. :-P

Tha VZA

09-19-2006, 03:01 PM

IRS still rules. :-P

...at being the worst thing ever!

ciao

Body Massage

09-19-2006, 04:24 PM

Well, I spose I do have a biased/spoiled opinion, I have a sway bar on mine :-P. Best handling stock Volvo I have driven to date.

Matt Dupuis

09-19-2006, 08:11 PM

:lol:

I think I recall hearing that the IRS brakes are better than the solid-axle stock brakes anyways. :e-shrug:

IRS still rules. :-P

ACBAR moment #2. How the hell can IRS brakes be that much better than solid axle brakes, provided materials and dimensions are the same? If they're not the same, fine. I'm guessing that 11.75" x 1.0" vented (edit) REAR rotors and 4 piston calipers pwn IRS brakes...

I'll take a good live axle over a crappy IRS any day. I don't know enough about Volvo's IRS to say if it's sliced bread or the best thing since, but the fact that you can't buy ANYTHING for them (like stock brakes, pads, springs, shox, etc) it substantially less attractive to me, even if it's freakin' awesome stuff.

I'm just giving you the piss, as our British friends would say...

Body Massage

09-19-2006, 11:20 PM

Actually you can buy brakes pads rotors springs(if your crafty) and shocks for them now.

And all of those items are 'performance' items. Slotted or cross drilled rotors? Or both? PBR Ultimates are available for pads. I have a set of IRS Bilstein HDs, and will be ordering some performance springs for it too. Check <a href="http://www.eurosporttuning.ca/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Category_Code=VL-740-br">here</a> for brake stuff.

Now I don't want to clog your thread up with IRS crap, so I'm going to go back to waiting now. :-D

phillazenby740t

09-20-2006, 08:53 AM

IRS stands for I Really Suck

kelley_aj

09-20-2006, 10:40 AM

No. Sorry. This summer's been retarded, so it's probably going to have to wait 'till winter. Tell ya what, to make it up to you I'll design some rear brake stuff too, okay?

Hey I appreciate the inovativeness (is this a word?) of the whole project. Take your time, I will try and not be an impatient 5 year old:-P , but if you want to reward my attempt at attention with better back braking too wheeeee are we there yet:badboy:

kelley_aj

09-20-2006, 10:41 AM

Hank Scorpio

09-20-2006, 11:26 AM

95' 960 can use any brake kit available for the 850, and there are quite a few of them, including simply bolting s60r components on to them.

Not true if the 960 hub is the same as the 850. S60R calipers wont fit those hubs.

nohbudi

09-20-2006, 01:09 PM

Not true if the 960 hub is the same as the 850. S60R calipers wont fit those hubs.

shows how much I know about the WWD cars.... next you are going to tell me they don't use chaindrive too, aren't you?:grrr:

phillazenby740t

02-04-2007, 09:10 PM

hey dale, just looking for an update on these babies, is the project still going on or is it on the sidelines:-(

Lord Tentacle

02-04-2007, 09:51 PM

hey dale, just looking for an update on these babies, is the project still going on or is it on the sidelines:-(

+1

i'm more interested in an upgrade for the rear brakes though

245gti

02-05-2007, 12:18 AM

Well guys...the news is good...mostly. We've just returned from the west coast with about a dozen calipers and rotors to mock up the 2/7/9 series rears and the 7 series fronts. We're just waiting on some prototype brackets from the machinist to test fit some stuff...

sgtrauksauff

02-06-2007, 03:31 AM

Rockin!!! Almost can't wait.

--sarge

Matt Dupuis

02-06-2007, 04:07 PM

We also got some good news yesterday on the cast iron (as opposed to aluminium) rear brake hats, to allow repeated use of the emergency brake. The bad news is that they'll be a bit of a wait before they show up... May-ish. That's when I'll be bolting together my car, testing for feel & performance, and announcing final pricing.

Stay tuned!

thelostartof

02-06-2007, 04:41 PM

that's great but what about updtaes on the fronts? can we buy parts yet?

Matt Dupuis

02-06-2007, 06:43 PM

that's great but what about updtaes on the fronts? can we buy parts yet?
Not yet. It's been a busy winter, sorry for the delays, but we'll have parts ready for the fronts at about the same time as for the rears, maybe a bit sooner.

245gti

02-06-2007, 09:52 PM

I suppose we could put up a shopping list for the parts we'll be working to adapt, i.e. rotors, calipers, pads and where to order them from...

More on that shortly...

phillazenby740t

02-06-2007, 10:45 PM

I suppose we could put up a shopping list for the parts we'll be working to adapt, i.e. rotors, calipers, pads and where to order them from...

More on that shortly...

10-4. Good idea, that way we can gradually buy the stuff in anticipation of the final kit:-P

thelostartof

02-07-2007, 12:19 AM

take your time .. i need time to save up or steal that much $ ... all i know is i can not wait for a BBK as stopping is fun

245gti

02-07-2007, 01:20 AM

Ok...here's the deal. We are working on sources for the rotor hats, both front and rear. We are waiting on some bracket prototypes to ensure proper fit. We do know which rotors we will be using. They are Wilwood UL-32 directional vane rotors. 12.19" X 1.25"for both front and rear. Part numbers are 160-2900 and 160-2901 for the rears and 160-2894 and 160-2895 for the fronts. Talk to Tim at sales@carshopinc.com. They have the best prices I found and, believe me, I shopped around a lot. They should be in the neighborhood of $40-$45 per rotor, depending on the discount Tim gives us. Mention you were referred by Dale at Avalanche and are buying parts for a Volvo. He'll know what you're talking about.

At this point we know what calipers we'll be using or, more accurately, we know which model we'll be using. We've done the math and believe we've sized them correctly but we have yet to test them in real world conditions. Until we do, we're going to hold off on the part numbers. We'll be using Wilwood Forged Billet Superlite (FSL) calipers for certain. Again, we need to verify our calculations in real world testing.

We're also recommending one of two brake pad compounds. The FSL caliper takes a 7420 brake pad. These are available in a variety of compounds but most are race use only. The BP-10 and the Q compound are likely the most suitable for our purposes. They have very similar friction properties. The BP-10 is quite a bit cheaper (~$65 an axle set vs ~$105) than the Q compound. The BP-10 is a semi-metallic pad where the Q is a ceramic based compound. Ian (Volvord) used the Q compound last summer and was thrilled with them. Great grab and no dust. I, on the other hand used "A" compound. Great grab; even better hot but they chew up rotors something fierce and they dust worse than any pads I've ever used. Not recommended. However, if someone wants to use "A" compound pads, I've got three or four axle sets on a shelf in the garage. Warm them up and your car will feel like the body wants to part company with the wheels. Amazing friction...

At this point we'll be ordering enough front rotor hats to do 20 cars. Once we establish we'll be able to sell that many, we'll order more. If you want to be guaranteed a set, we'll certainly take deposits. PM me for details on that. We're also waiting to hear how long it will be before we have these parts in our hands. We'll know more on that front tomorrow...

GrandmaSideways

02-07-2007, 08:17 AM

All I can say is these rotors will add REAL bling to your wheels.

pgrey

02-08-2007, 12:43 AM

We're also recommending one of two brake pad compounds.

Although I haven't tried any new pads in a couple of years, I went through about four different compounds for my Wilwoods in an attempt to get a set that wouldn't squeek on the street. While some were better than others, I have yet to find a compound available for my calipers that didn't make a ton of noise on light pressure; and I'm talking roll-up-your-windows-and-look-around-in-embarassment levels of noise.

If you're interested, I'll forage in my garage and find what I've tried and give you some compound/part numbers. IIRC, the softest pad was the best - not a surprise. On the other hand, if there are any new compounds that you know about that are good with regards to noise levels, I'd love to know what they are.

Just bear in mind if you're planning on doing this that your brakes may make a lot of noise.

Peter

245gti

02-08-2007, 12:52 AM

Ian's Q compound pads make no noise. I haven't driven with the BP-10's yet but they're made for street use ...

http://brakepads.wilwood.com/01-selection/bp10.html

<table border="0" cellpadding="1" cellspacing="1" width="655"><tbody><tr><td colspan="2" bgcolor="#d3d3d3">"Smart-Pad" BP-10:</td> </tr> <tr> <td bgcolor="silver" width="50%"> Characteristics
</td> <td bgcolor="silver" width="50%"> Applications
</td> </tr> <tr> <td bgcolor="#d3d3d3" valign="top" width="50%">
Medium friction compound with the low noise and low dust of a street performance compound and the increased friction characteristics of a semi-metallic race compound.
Smooth engagement with consistent response from a flat torque curve throughout its entire effective temperature range.
Good low to middle temperature wear rates.
Beds quickly and provides fast response without excessive abrasion on vented iron rotors.</td> <td bgcolor="#d3d3d3" valign="top" width="50%">
High performance street / strip, drag race, and track day categories using vented iron rotors.
Light to medium braking on dirt tracks including late models, modifieds, sportsman, and street stocks.
Disc brake conversions on street rods and muscle cars.</td></tr></tbody></table>

Volvord

02-08-2007, 09:49 AM

And here is the information on the "Q" compound. These have never made any sound and virtually dust free

http://brakepads.wilwood.com/01-selection/q.html

phillazenby740t

02-09-2007, 12:02 AM

245gti

02-09-2007, 12:20 AM

Q compound applications

* Sprint cars with aluminum rotors.
* Disc brake conversions on street rods, muscle cars, custom show cars, and all moderate performance applications where low noise and dust are important. :-(

Don't let that fool you. They are far better performing pads than any Volvo pads. I have not tried the plethora of replacement pads available and have no doubt Raybestos makes a good one as does Porterfield and Hawk. At ~$100 for a set (2 calipers worth), I think they're a good option. The BP-10 pads are even cheaper. I don't have any real life experience with them but the 122 will be running them this summer, possibly front and rear. I can tell you the Q compounds on Ian's V8 car haul it down in a huge hurry from any speed...repeatedly...

m4ff3w

04-13-2007, 04:43 PM

Any pricing estimates?

245gti

04-14-2007, 11:47 PM

http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=90928&highlight=bbk

I believe we still have room for one more for the fronts. Still a few spots left for rears...

pgrey

04-15-2007, 11:05 PM

And here is the information on the "Q" compound. These have never made any sound and virtually dust free

http://brakepads.wilwood.com/01-selection/q.html

The "Q" pads are what I have on my car. They squeek and make dust. I wonder if the new pads are somehow better. Mine have been on for a while now...

Peter

Volvord

04-16-2007, 09:52 AM

The "Q" pads are what I have on my car. They squeek and make dust. I wonder if the new pads are somehow better. Mine have been on for a while now...

Peter

Interesting Peter

As Dale & Matt can attest, the Wilwood "Q" pad I have on my car are very clean, very little to no brake dust on my wheels after many miles of "spirited" driving. They have also been completely silent.

pgrey

04-16-2007, 03:37 PM

Interesting Peter

As Dale & Matt can attest, the Wilwood "Q" pad I have on my car are very clean, very little to no brake dust on my wheels after many miles of "spirited" driving. They have also been completely silent.

Well, it may be the spirited driving that's keeping them quiet. I drive around San Francisco and it's tough to get them warm. After I heat them up a bit, the squeek goes away for a while. This doesn't address the dust issue though. Mind you, they're not hugely dusty, but the difference between the front and rear wheels is obvious.

Peter

Matt Dupuis

06-10-2007, 01:27 AM

Here are the pictures I've been promising.

Front caliper bracket mounted properly:

http://members.shaw.ca/UglyDuck/745/100_3107%20small.jpg

Note the amount of backing plate removed for caliper clearance.

The caliper may need some small clearancing on your car. It did on mine. I could have ground a little bit off the balljoint flange, but I just touched up the caliper like so:

http://members.shaw.ca/UglyDuck/745/100_3110%20small.jpg

The rotor mounted to the back of the hat, and (poorly, my very first attempt) safety wired:

http://members.shaw.ca/UglyDuck/745/100_3113%20small.jpg

Test fitted with my nasty old spacers. You'll notice a lack of cleanliness throughout my car. I like it that way.

http://members.shaw.ca/UglyDuck/745/100_3115%20small.jpg

A small amount of grinding to the inside of the factory bracket is necessary to mount the Earl's brake hose to the body of the car.

http://members.shaw.ca/UglyDuck/745/100_3117%20small.jpg

Elbow and hose thus:

http://members.shaw.ca/UglyDuck/745/100_3120%20small.jpg

Voila!

http://members.shaw.ca/UglyDuck/745/100_3141%20small.jpg

Rears in similar fashion - the untouched backing plate (yes that is a hose clamp keeping my rear spring in place):

http://members.shaw.ca/UglyDuck/745/100_3122%20small.jpg

Relieved for caliper & bracket clearance:
http://members.shaw.ca/UglyDuck/745/100_3124%20small.jpg

http://members.shaw.ca/UglyDuck/745/100_3123%20small.jpg

http://members.shaw.ca/UglyDuck/745/100_3125%20small.jpg

Due to an error somewhere, one of the bolt holes is too darn small. Open it up with the appropriate drill bit.
http://members.shaw.ca/UglyDuck/745/100_3128%20small.jpg

Properly mounted on the axle lugs. Take note that the axle lugs fit within the reliefs in the bracket, and the caliper lugs fit into their own reliefs.
http://members.shaw.ca/UglyDuck/745/100_3131%20small.jpg

Test fit caliper to prove clearance to backing plate:
http://members.shaw.ca/UglyDuck/745/100_3132%20small.jpg
Test fit rotor on the hub & try to give it a spin. You'll see marks on the backing plate where the parking brake drum rubs. Again, sorry - I could have made the drum about 3/16" narrower & it wouldn't have hit. I'll fix it in the next issue.
http://members.shaw.ca/UglyDuck/745/100_3133%20small.jpg

http://members.shaw.ca/UglyDuck/745/100_3134%20small.jpg

But now you get to have fun with a hammer! Tap all around the edge thusly, paying particular attention to the area near the parking brake actuator boss. Everything will probably self-machine if you leave it alone, but it's probably better to clearance things now.
http://members.shaw.ca/UglyDuck/745/100_3135%20small.jpg

http://members.shaw.ca/UglyDuck/745/100_3136%20small.jpg

Don't stop until it fits without rubbing. Watch for the very furthest outer edges of the backing plate rubbing on the rotor - it bends easily to clear the rotor. Note, you COULD remove most of the backing plate if you want maximum cooling, same goes for the fronts, however I wouldn't remove the rear backing plate outright, due to it being sandwiched between the axle and rear wheel bearing retainer, and if you remove it you'll alter the preload on that bearing.
http://members.shaw.ca/UglyDuck/745/100_3138%20small.jpg

Again, a small amount of grinding necessary to the bracket, and the Earl's lines slide right in place.
http://members.shaw.ca/UglyDuck/745/100_3140%20small.jpg

Rear brakes done.
http://members.shaw.ca/UglyDuck/745/100_3142%20small.jpg

Matt Dupuis

06-10-2007, 01:44 AM

Now, for performance: Since the majority of folks here bought only front brakes, and since I installed both front and rear at the same time, I can't comment on how well the front-only swap works. I *think* it will work just fine.

Overall, the brakes are much more powerful once they're warmer than cold. At dead cold, they require a slight bit more pedal effort, but once they warm up the pedal effort required drops dramatically. Since the stock pedal effort is too light, it shouldn't be a surprise that a bigger master cylinder bore is needed, or the removal of the brake booster could be tried.

My install has some issues: I've got a bit of a vibration at high speed application (more severe when warm) and at low speeds (approaching a stop) you can feel them pulse - not through the brake pedal. It may be that one of my rotors is slightly warped, or that I bedded them incorrectly and I need to clean off the rear rotors and try again. Either way, I'll be surfacing the rotors the next time I've got the car off the road for a few days.

Wilwood says that .005-.008" of runout is allowable. I measured .003" on both my front rotors, and .010" on one of my rears with .016" on the other. Both axles were bent, and I also had about .010" of endfloat on the axle bearings. All of this combined to "knock back" the pads so that my brake pedal was quite low. I installed new bearings on much straighter axles, and now have zero endfloat with .003 and .004" runout, and the pedal is MUCH higher and more consistent. The reduced runout lowered the brake pulsation quite a bit, but it's not completely gone.

I used the BP-10 pads. I expected them to be very linear in torque production, suggested by the graphic Wilwood offers, but in reality I find them to be a bit wooden when cold and very grabby when hot. Might be that they're not completely bedded in yet, or were never bedded in correctly... Once they're hot, they work and work and work. I can't get up to speed fast enough and frequently enough to get them to fade. Repeated maximum effort stops from 70 MPH (10-12 in a row) did nothing to damage braking performance. They're not totally dust-free pads, though, and my Tethys' are a bit of a bear to clean, but I don't think you can expect a good pad to be TOTALLY clean.

Oh, and I haven't tried disabling ABS yet to see how the brake balance is, but I plan to do this test in the future.

One other thing I should note: The two-piece rotors like these are almost never assembled so the rotor is totally concentric with the hub. The rotor WILL be a little bit offset, and combined with the fact that they're not balanced from the factory, you may experience a little bit of a vibration at speed unless the rotors are taken in for balancing after they're assembled. As these were the "alpha" version of my BBK, I now realise that I could have added a step for the rotor to pilot onto the hat, hopefully eliminating any eccentricity (though that's truly a "hopefully", not a guarantee.)

Again, remember that these are racing bits, and because of that a little bit of extra prep is required for each installation: one race team might want to drill or slot their rotors in a particular pattern, one race team might want to thin down the rotors as much as possible to lighten them up, one race team might want a dead smooth braking surface so will dress them on a grinder table and lap them with stone, and all rotating pieces are checked for balance.

peehound

06-25-2007, 09:59 AM

http://www.stanford.edu/~mcduck/Volvo/wilwood_hydra.jpg

Everything went together, no problems. I don't have ABS, so I used the procedure here: http://www.brickboard.com/FAQ/700-900/Brakes.htm#UpgradingOlder7XXBrakestoLater9XXJumboB rakes
No shake, shimmy, and not too much noise.

I'm using BP-20 pads, which match Matt's description of the BP-10s, except they're easily modulated when hot; I'm relieved that it's not dangerous when cold.
I let the smoke out of the pads yesterday on my favorite brake test hill with the 'ol lady riding shotgun; didn't stink too much at all. I have stock ATe rear brakes with MM pads; the balance is quite good.
Overall, I'm tickled.
Now for the track!

Matt Dupuis

08-08-2007, 12:47 PM

An update to my own brake performance (and earlier issues): Initially, I had a ton of vibration that was making me worry about caliper stability, but the frequencies were all wrong and the vibration was directly related to wheel speed - even approaching a stop. I tried "surfacing" the rear rotors first with a roloc disk and then with my blasting cabinet, to get rid of any potential uneven pad material buildup, but the pulsation returned. I tried the same treatment on the front rotors without success. Eventually I got to a weekday where I could take my car apart & bring the rotors into a shop, where they trued them up on their lathe. The result is that there is now zero pulsation, hot or cold. Either I torqued one of my rotors up poorly (quite likely, since I didn't actually torque them), or they were stored incorrectly (on edge, where they'll creep and warp on the shelf). Bottom line is that if you've got pulsation, you'll need to get the rotors machined.

Now that they're machined, I can hammer on them at any time, and with the BP-10 pads they require a light warmup but once they're warm they're very powerful. Dusting isn't as bad as I first thought, being as that I haven't done any seriously hard braking since I decided that one was warped and they'd need machining. During normal driving, brake dust is minimal and it's pretty easily cleaned. Either I've gotten used to things or after the machining, the pads are much easier to modulate and aren't nearly as wooden when cold or as grabby when hot. I'm pleased.

The other day, though, my radiator jumped off it's supports (don't ask...) and fell backwards into the fan (you E-fan fanatics may rejoice, briefly) where it was torn asunder. I immediately killed the ignition and came to a stop on the side of the road without ABS, and boy howdy do those rear brakes lock up!!! I think a proportioning valve will be needed for some of you, but I haven't had time to rig up an ABS disable switch to see just how bad it is, as I've only got that one near spin to talk about. Another issue is that the non-ABS cars have a diagonal split system, meaning it's got TWO lines going to the rears, so I'm not sure how you'll deal with rear bias control... maybe some 240 rear limiting valves?

qwkswede

08-08-2007, 02:04 PM

I'm trying to decide on my pad compound right now too. I do some track days. Usually several days a year, and I'm not against switching pads for the track. But, really with the increased coolling and braking from the wilwood fronts. I'm hopeful that a dual purpose pad can go both ways.

Just to give you an idea of the application. My car is heavy, Volvos ain't stripped race cars. And At Pueblo Motorports Park, my local track, I had to run some really aggressive race pads in the front of my factory 740 calipers to get anything resembling decent braking. These were not streetable at all because they could destroy rotors really quickly when cold. There is one really hard braking zone where I slow from about 110+ down to about 75 for the corner entry. Then several other spots where you need a little braking adjustment too. I'll need a wilwood pad that can take that on the track.

It looks like my choices are the BP10 or BP20 for a dual purpose pad. And then one of the racier choices if I want just a track only pad. Has anyone run a track day with the BP10 or 20 yet?

I'm using BP-20 pads, which match Matt's description of the BP-10s, except they're easily modulated when hot; I'm relieved that it's not dangerous when cold.
I let the smoke out of the pads yesterday on my favorite brake test hill with the 'ol lady riding shotgun; didn't stink too much at all. I have stock ATe rear brakes with MM pads; the balance is quite good.
Overall, I'm tickled.
Now for the track!