WTF, MS advances spark, reads wrong, HELP

[apd]

MS1 V3pcb 24s13 code, mt2.25, Volvo b230f+t, hall distributor setup, Vb 921 coil control.

This is a 2 part, related problem.

When I use the Hall sensor setup from the MSnS-E site:

Setup - Hall sensor
First, in Megatune in the Codebase and outputs function, set LED18 to "irq trigger" and send to ECU.
1) Set the crank at TDC
2) Rotate the distributor (opposite direction) just until middle LED turns OFF (sets the crank angle)
3) Make sure the rotor arm points towards the correct contact in the distributor cap
4) Fix the distributor
5) Turn engine backwards until middle LED turns ON (should be almost immediately) and continue turning until it turns OFF again
6) Measure angle BTDC (+/- 10 degrees is good enough) at the crank
7) Enter measured angle in "Trigger angle"
8) Enter "Fixed angle" to 10 degrees
9) Start the engine
10) Adjust "Trigger angle" until the timing light is at 10 degrees
11) Set "Fixed angle" to -10
12) Start tuning
I get a trigger angle of about 53*, but when I try to start the car, the measurement is somewhere beyone 65 (this is as far as my light will go), probably around 75 or so degrees.

The only way to start the car is with the trigger angle set to 35 (I know this is bad), with the Spark output NOT inverted (BAD), the fixed angle set to 15, and this gives me -3 at idle (~900rpm), but advances the spark all the way to ~40* at 4K rpm.

I do shut off power to the MS board every time I mess (thats what this is turning into) with the spark.

Any help would be greatly appriciated.

Alex

PS is there a master squirter on the Southern end of Lake Michigan who is willing to help (Will comp. with the end of meager college funds, manual labor, ?...)

[linuxman51]

its pretty simple, you havent set the trigger angle yet. the 12 step guide is just there to get you running, and then you play with it with the timing light to get it zeroed in whilst the car is running. if its supposed to be inverted, set it to inverted and then play with the settings until the car runs, and go from there

[apd]

Thanks for the quick reply

what I see as the major problem is that when I have the fixed angle set to ANY number besides -10 (to go to the map) the spark advances.:???:

I MAY BE WRONG, but from my understanding, when the angle is fixed, say 15*, the spark should ALWAYS be at 15*, not advancing or anything else.

Second, the spark table I am using (your 8v table I think) has a max difference in advance from 44*-14*= 30*, and I am seeing a max difference closer to 45*.

Thanks

Alex

[linuxman51]

lemme hit this again, i think i wasnt clear enough:

If your trigger angle is incorrect, the timing calculations will be wrong and you will experience errant behaviour

Also, if you're using a module (or msd) that requires inverted output, and you dont invert it, you will experience errant behaviour.

So, if the trigger angle is incorrect, the fixed angle is also not going to be correct. the box doesn't magically "know" where 15 degrees is, you have to tell it how to calculate 15 degrees. So until you get the timing light to agree with the crank pulley (And make sure your crank pulley hasnt sepparated), you're stabbing blindly in the dark in terms of ignition timing.

[apd]

Thanks,

I'll take a go of it again today.

ALex

[benflynn]

I Have A Trigger Angle Of 8, Works Best

[swedefiend]

I Have A Trigger Angle Of 8, Works Best

And your point is?

Mine is 90*, well was until I upgraded the code. Now it is 89.

You have a head mount dizzy too Mr. Flynn. Our friend apd has a block mount.

[jpbturbo]

I Have A Trigger Angle Of 8, Works Best
Mine is 15,
It depends on how you have your dizzy clocked.

[benflynn]

at one point your trigger angle was susposed to be larger than you max advance, my max advance is 50, and trigger angle of 8, i figured he thought a trigger angle of 35 was bad because his max advance was going to be more than 35

[apd]

In the msns-e documentation:

first, when setting up the high current ignition dirver (direct coil control)

Make sure you set Inverted spark output.
Can anyone tell me why, I can only get it to run with this off.

second, under "wiring choice, hall sensor" it says:
For correct code operation you need a vane edge to pass the trigger when the engine is at 60-90BTDC OR 5-15BTDC. If it passes at 16-50BTDC you MUST re-phase you distributor or you will be unable to set your advance correctly.

Hall sensor users can take advantage of "trigger return" In this mode the trigger should be active at least 5-10 degrees before maximum advance and stay active until 5-0 degrees BTDC.

When I followed the Hall sensor setup, I cut out a circle the size of the crank pully and marked where TDC was, along with the trigger angle, took the paper off and put a protractor on it, read the angle, set the trigger angle to this, and tried to start the car.

The guide says that this should get me within a couple of degrees, my timing light read in the neighborhood of 70*.

If anyone can clarify for me, please do so

Alex

[benflynn]

just use what works, i def do not go through all that when i have to pull the dizzy or break a rod, i don't invert the spark

[linuxman51]

the guide doesn't always work.

go skim through the install guide in Articles and comp, down to the part where it talks about setting the trigger angle and follow those directions. if you have a really low trigger angle the only issue you might run into is trying to run advance numbers that are right around the trigger angle. Mine is like 8, and if i get the timing map down that low it tends to bug out (at least while idling).

I'm tired of the whole distro thing tho, i'm bouta throw a 60-2 on there and coil packs, holla

[apd]

I may just be making this to hard.

The project has been a b230 transplant + 64/48 +90 mani +Megasquirt +diff rebuild

3 months and I have lost the loner car I have, just need to get it running.

Thanks again everyone

Alex

[The Aspirator]

What are you running for ignition? "Vb 921 coil control." I don't know what that means. I'm running the bosch 139 ignition module, my spark output is NOT inverted, trigger angle is 62, and the distributor rotor points almost exactly at the #1 terminal in the dizzy cap.

So, get the car running. Take out the lock down screw on the distributor. Hit it with the timing light, then by hand rotate the distributor until the numbers start getting closer. This will give you an idea of what's going on and how to fix it. Ideally you want the dizzy right in the middle of it's adjustment range with the rotor pointing exactly at #1 when the engine is at top dead center. Then you mess with your trigger angle to whatever it needs to be in order to get the timing light to match the fixed angle. I've noticed that when the numbers are way off, it can tend to change when you rev it. But when they get closer to the right numbers it should stay where it's supposed to.

I've had trigger angles from 2 to 130, and spark inverted and not, it doesn't really matter as long as it works, so don't be afraid of trying things out. Just don't drive it till you get this nailed down and don't rev it that high either. You just need a tap of the throttle spool to make sure that the fixed angle is working.

[apd]

So I was under the assumption that (from old doc's) that the trigger angle had to be bigger than the advance, I was corrected, and the car WAS running yesterday for about 1/2 an hour.

THen, I took it out for a spin (having never driven the car was exciting), got about a mile from where I have been working on it, and the CAR GOES DEAD.

I was on the throttle, but not hard and I lost everything. 1st I thought the dizzy had shifted (forgot to tighten it down once before), no, I put a mark where I had tightened it down, hadn't moved.

I start looking around and the 2 amp fuse to the MS box is blown, dig around on the floor, find a five amp, turn the car on, blows the 5. check all my wiring for something loose, check the MS for any burnt parts, NO and NO, try it again, blow another 5 amp.

S**T

So I'm sitting on the side of the entrence road, in the middle of a bog, no cell service.

Ended up walking 2 miles to get a cell signal, to call AAA and drag the car to my house.

So, IT RAN, DOESN't NOW, but I FINALLY HAVE IT AT MY HOUSE.

Anyone have a guess to what is wrong.:???:

I'm going to start by dissconnecting everything in the car, plug in the MS box, and reconnnect until I blow the fuse, thus telling me whats wrong.

I have no idea what to do if, with everything dissconnected, the fuse blows (I assume then that it's the box)


The VB921 is a high current ignition driver directly on the V3 MS board, allowing direct coil control (without the 139 module).

From :http://megasquirt.sourceforge.net/extra/setup-msns.html
Dumb modules / VB921 IGBT - preferred method
Since the Extra firmware supports dwell control, you are not required to use a smart-dwell Bosch module, you can also use dumb ignitors or IGBTs such as the VB921 on the V3 board. Using the VB921 is the preferred method. See the dwell control page (http://megasquirt.sourceforge.net/extra/dwell.html)
http://megasquirt.sourceforge.net/extra/pix/vb921-driver-single.gif
http://megasquirt.sourceforge.net/extra/pix/vb921-driver-extras.gif
Make sure you set Inverted spark output.



Thanks for the help


Alex

[The Aspirator]

Ohh, well I've never looked into the V3 stuff, then you will probably want to do whatever they tell you to do with regards to inverting the output or not.

The fuse thing definitely sounds like a wiring problem, if it's blowing fuses that are higher rating than it's supposed to be, you've got a problem somewhere. Sucks that you had to tow it!

And when driving it, don't get on it hard until you know it's not going to ping. Ease your way into boost every time and listen closely.

[apd]

Just tryinig to run it up and down the street, I was keeping it under 2800, still need to get it running well enough to get it to a friends garage with a lift and weld in an o2 bung (tractor sparkplug thread cleaner cut off, 2 for $2 at the parts store)

alex