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frpe82
06-12-2006, 01:26 AM
Converting your car to use E85

http://hem.bredband.net/fredrik-persson/Turbobricks/pristavla1.jpg

During the last few years a lot of so called "flexi-fuel" cars has seen the light of day. They are ordinary cars with the capability of running ordinary gasoline, E85 or E100 (ethanol) and a blend between the two. This is developed in response to the high fuel prices and to try to take care of our environment. In theory or in a controlled lab, ethanol only leaves behind the rest-products of water and carbon dioxide after a complete burn. When burning ethanol in real life it is easy to get very close to this as well.

I and many others have converted their gasoline car to run on E85 (ethanol fuel). This is a guide on how to do the same thing. I will try not to get too technical and I will try to keep it simple for everyone to understand.

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First of all, what is E85?:
E85 consists of 85% ethanol and 15% additives. The additives vary a lot depending on where you live and time of the year. But roughly, the 15% additives is mostly made up of gasoline, additives that helps the engine to make a complete burn, additives that helps the engine start when itīs cold and additives to color the fuel and the flame (so you know what substance it is, and also to help you see that it is really burning).


(Positive) facts about E85:

1. It is not corrosive to the fuel system or the engine. This is a myth and ethanol is often confused with methanol, which actually have corrosive properties. Some models before 1988 on the other hand may have some parts that is not ethanol resistant. If we are talking Volvoīs, then this mainly applies to the non-electronically injection systems such as K-jet etc. Most cars with electronical fuel injection (EFI) should be resistant to ethanol.

2. It is not as harmful to the nature/environment as gasoline or any other petroleum products for that matter. Ethanol is made out of renewable energy resources such as crops and trees to name a few things. The carbon dioxide that an ethanol powered car emits is not contributing to the greenhouse effect, but is taken up by the plants and is being "re-used". The carbon dioxide then goes around in a closed loop. Gasoline on the other hand is made from oil that comes from old dinosaurs :lol: , plants and other stuff 100 000 of years ago, and it doesnīt take part in the closed loop but only adds to the amount of greenhouse gasses. Ethanol is also easily bio-degradeable if it should leak into our environment.

3. E85 is 104-105 octane and therefore itīs more knock-resistent and can tolerate more boost or a higher CR.

4. E85 cools the intake charge more and therefore itīs more knock-resistent and can tolerate more boost or a higher CR. And it also makes the engine run cooler and to some degree, even safer.

5. E85 is in most cases at least 5% more effícient than gasoline at the same lambda value (up to 25% more efficient on some cars optimized soley for E85).

6. Since E85 has very good cleaning properties as well as leaving behind a rest-product of water, it is cleaning the fuel system and it will keep the injectors nice and clean. The combustion chambers, valves, ports and the exhaust will also be clean(er), almost like the car had water injection.

7. In most cases it will cost less $/mile to run on E85.


(Negative) facts about E85:

1. Cars running on E85 have some trouble starting when the engine temperature drops below +5*C. Cars running E100 (not very common) have some trouble starting when the intake (the air) temperature is below +15*C. This is easily solved by using an engine heater in the winter, electrical or fuel-heated (this is recommended on all cars regardless of fuel to get better mileage, less wear on the engine and less impact on the environment etc., but that is another matter to discuss and will not be brought up here...). Some people also adds a little extra gasoline to the tank of E85 to help with cold-starts.

2. Since cars running E85 requires roughly 30% more fuel, a tank of E85 will not get you as far as a tank of gasoline and you will have to refuel more often. This is often disregarded by E85 users who learn to live with it because of the economical gains.


Technical facts about the mentioned fuels:

E85 requires 42% more fuel to reach stoich even if that is not what you may come up with when doing calculations based on the table below. This is because the injector flow is slightly different when using E85 among many other things I canīt really think of at this time (will be added at a later time).

Fuel ........................ AFRst ........ FARst ....... Equivalence Ratio ... Lambda
Gas stoich ................ 14.7 .......... 0.068 ................ 1 ................... 1
Gas max power rich .... 12.5 .......... 0.08 ................. 1.176 .............. 0.8503
Gas max power lean .... 13.23 ........ 0.0755 .............. 1.111 ............. 0.900
E85 stoich .................. 9.765 ....... 0.10235 ............ 1 ................... 1
E85 max power rich ...... 6.975 ....... 0.1434 .............. 1.40 ............... 0.7143
E85 max power lean ..... 8.4687 ...... 0.118 ............... 1.153 .............. 0.8673
E100 stoich ................ 9.0078 ...... 0.111 ............... 1 .................... 1
E100 max power rich .... 6.429 ........ 0.155 .............. 1.4 .................. 0.714
E100 max power lean .... 7.8 .... ...... 0.128 .............. 1.15 ................ 0.870

The term AFRst refers to the Air Fuel Ratio under stoichiometric, or ideal air fuel ratio mixture conditions. FARst refers to the Fuel Air Ratio under stoichiometric conditions, and is simply the reciprocal of AFRst.

Equivalence Ratio is the ratio of actual Fuel Air Ratio to Stoichiometric Fuel Air Ratio; it provides an intuitive way to express richer mixtures. Lambda is the ratio of actual Air Fuel Ratio to Stoichiometric Air Fuel Ratio; it provides an intuitive way to express leanness conditions (i.e., less fuel, less rich) mixtures of fuel and air.

When driving purely on E85 you can blend it with up to 25% gasoline in case you want to raise the AFR number used to produce max. power. In that case you can raise the boost even further since the volume of fuel needed to reach the desired lambda is decreased.


Performance application and fuel needed:

Performance application:
Letīs pretend for a while that the ECUīs in our cars are pretty good at their jobs. On gasoline it will try to keep an AFR of 14.7 (lambda=1) all the time at idle, cruise and light load. It will also try to keep a good AFR at WOT/boost of 13.2-12.5, sometimes even lower than that, probably closer to 11.x.

Why? Because the fuel has a cooling effect on the intake charge and the space in which the combustion occurs.

As you can see from the table shown above this section, the ideal target AFRīs under boost for both gasoline and E85 are listed. For gasoline itīs 13.23-12.5, and for E85 itīs 8.47-6.975. However, with E85 you will not need to richen the mixture under WOT/boost as far as 6.975 or beyond. It does not need to be proportionally richer when compared to gasoline.

Why? Again, Because the fuel has a cooling effect on the intake charge and the space in which the combustion occurs. And at such a low AFR as 9.765 (lambda=1 on E85) or lower the fuel cools pretty good, donīt you think so?

Many people with some experience in mapping an ECU for use with E85 says that as high AFR as 8.5 or lambda=0.80-0.85 works well. No need to go to the extreme end of the useable scale to get safe power. It only uses a lot of fuel without giving any benefits.

Since you donīt have to richen the mixture as many percent (proportionally) as you have to on gasoline, you can make more power without having to use as much fuel. Instead you can keep the AFRīs leaner across the board and by doing so you can make room for higher boost without maxing out the injectors.

The burn rate will of course be different for different AFR's. It is a matter of tuning it right and getting the peak cylinder pressure where you want it (10 degrees after TDC). But if you are around the same ratio as on gasoline (i.e if you have installed injectors that are almost exactly 42% bigger) you are in the ballpark and do not have to worry about it. More about this later on.

Fuel needed:
As you will see, both in my article as well as other places on the internet, different fuel requirements are listed. What numbers will you see and why?

1. A car converted, but not specifically mapped for E85 will consume ~30% more fuel.

2. A car running E85 will require ~42% more fuel.

3. According to your own calculations (if you have bothered to look in to it), it will not quite add up. Most people scratch their head.

Let me show you a table again:

Mode ........... Gas .... E85 ...... extra % (mass) ... extra % (flow)
Stoich .......... 14.7 .... 9.765 ........ +50.5% ................ +42%
Lean power ... 13.2 .... 8.47 .......... +55.8% ................ +47%
Rich power .... 12.5 .... 6.975 ........ +79.2% ................ +69%

E85 has a higher density than gasoline. The change in AFR from 14.7 (lambda=1 for gasoline) to 9.765 (lambda=1 for E85) is 50.5%. But the resulting flow needed is only 42% greater.

Explanations to this: E85 will need a fuel flow that is 42% greater than the flow needed for gasoline. However, it will not use 42% more fuel since it will actually be more efficient. Generally, the engine will consume ~30% more fuel.

If I am using 46.7lb/hr injectors (45% larger than stock) which are easy to get hold of, my AFRīs should theoretically look like this:

*At idle, cruise and low load (closed loop) the AFR will be 9.56, the O2-sensor sees this and will correct it to 9.765. A very small correction, and it lies well within the adaptation limits. Not even noticeable as more than normal adaptation by the ECU.

*When at WOT/boost (open loop) the AFR will be between 8.58-8.13. This looks a little lean according to the AFR table, doesnīt it? It isnīt even in the "rich" area according to the table. No worries, the cooling properties of E85 are pretty good. But in reality I will actually get an AFR of around 8-7.5 since my ECU wants to run a slightly richer mixture than 12.5 on gasoline. It obviously does not know that it is running E85...

Efficiency:

Lets start off with some facts:

* You need 42% more flow derived from the difference in AFR at Lambda=1.

* A car straight converted to E85 without any other modifications will use 30 to a little over 35% more fuel. Since 42% bigger injectors are actually needed, but the fuel consumption is not 42% higher, you can see that the efficiency goes up.

* If a car tuned for gasoline use and high power is converted straight to E85, it will use more E85 at part throttle and less E85 at WOT than a car tuned for running only on E85.

* A car tuned only for E85 use and high power will use less E85 at part throttle and more E85 at WOT than the car that was initially tuned for gas and then converted to E85.

* An efficient engine can take advantage of a good tune and only use ~20-25% more fuel when running on E85 than on gasoline. That doesn't just have to do with energy content, but also the other properties of E85, like burn rate (which can use a more efficient ignition setting), octane number (can also use a more efficient ignition setting), and cooling properties (ultimately leads to a cooler combustion chamber and the possibility of a more efficient ignition setting).

Then you ask why?

Let's start with this...

Energy content by weight:
Gasoline: 46.4 MJ/Kg
E85: 33.1 MJ/Kg

Weight per volume:
Gasoline: 0.7329 Kg/L
E85: 0.7806 Kg/L

Energy content by volume:
Gasoline: 34 MJ/L
E85: 25.84 MJ/L

Some of the numbers here will be recognised from the previous statement:

You need 42% more volume of E85 to reach Lambda=1.

At Lambda=1 on E85, the energy content is 7.92% higher than on gasoline.

That is why a car that is converted straight to E85 doesn't consume 42% more fuel. You get more energy from E85 at the same Lambda. The cooling properties and slightly different burn rate also adds a positive effect on the fuel consumption here.

If you then tune the car to use all the properties of E85, it will be a lot more efficient and use even less fuel that a car converted straight to E85 (aka: a car tuned for gasoline, but equipped with bigger injectors to run E85).

When it comes to power:

This is basically just repeating what I said previously in the same post, but to clarify I will say it again.

On E85 you can use much richer mixtures when aiming for very high power. One of the advantages of E85 is the cooling properties since a lot more is injected. Because of that, you can run a much more advanced ignition setting.

Since the octane number is higher, you can also run a much more advanced ignition setting.

And the car will also develop more power because E85 will contain more energy at the same Lambda.

Why stock engine management systems can't adapt to E85:

Even if the stock engine management systems had bigger injectors to be able to run E85, they would never pull it off in a safe way, and this is why...

Any modern EFI can, and if you let it, it will adapt to any fuel regardless of what AFR it takes to reach Lambda=1. But they are not programmed that way.

You can extremely easy program it do run on gas, then on E85 without even doing anything else than just filling up with E85 at the pump. The programming is the easy bit. The EFI just reads the O2-sensor and corrects the base fuel mixture and stores how much is needed to get to Lambda=1. Then it uses that base line to run the fuel in question, whichever fuel it may be.

But... all modern EFI's have a built-in adaptation already. Not as big as the step between gas and E85, but big enough to fix the car if any error with the fueling should occur.

What that means when it comes to practical use is this: An EFI that is suppose to be fail safe, and at the same time have the possibility of running another fuel type, can not operate if something goes wrong in the system. It can not differentiate between a fault and a different fuel.

We could easily instruct both LH, Motronic, Megasquirt or any other self-learning computer to do this, but they would never be fail-safe. They would simply have a too big span in fuel adaptation (fuel-trim) that the car would break very easy if something went wrong.

Example 1: On a normal car when an injector only can spray half of its rated capacity, the O2-sensor picks this up and instructs the ECU to increase the fueling. Since it is increasing the fueling much more than it is suppose to in order to get to the right mixture again, it thinks that something is wrong, goes into limp-home mode and lights the CEL.

Example 2: On a car with a great span in adaptability, this would instead be interpreted as a different fuel, ultimately creating a dangerous situation for the engine, never goes into limp-home mode, and it also never tells the driver that something is wrong.

That is why there are no cars with this kind of adaptive EFI.

Other kinds of EFI systems exists though, like the SAAB Trionic system in the bio-power cars (and the GM system of course), or the Volvo system in the flexi-fuel cars. They do it differently. They have a sensor in the fuel line that tells the EFI what fuel is being used. Then the EFI switches tables in the computer.


Economical gains:

I canīt compare to other cars, users or driving styles but myself and my own Volvo 945 Turbo.

So let me tell you guys about the fuel prices here in Sweden.
98 octane gasoline cost 14.0sek/L = $2.32/L = $8.78/gallon.
And 104 octane E85 cost 8.14sek/L = $1.35/L = $5.11/gallon.

My car usually use 11.0L (average) of gasoline per 100km of driving (mixed, pretty normal driving). E85 is supposed to use up 30% more fuel, so my consumption should be 14.3L of E85 per 100km of normal driving.

I have driven the car a lot on E85, and I am going through just a little over 57L of E85 in 400km. WOW! That is 14.3L per 100km, just like calculated.

I am impressed! :omg: :omg: :omg:

This also means that my usual cost of 154sek/100km has gone down to 116sek/100km, even though I drive like a maniac :-D .

And of course, the power and driveability is much better.


My experience with E85:

1. Better power (cooler intake charge, higher octane and the fact that it is cleaning the engine pretty good).

2. Smoother power and better stability at part-load.

3. I can run a tremendous amount of boost, and it keeps pulling harder and harder all the way to redline without any problems.

4. After only 50 miles the tail-pipe began to get a lighter color. It was black inside before, now itīs brown and very transparent. My pipe is chromed and now you can see the chrome on the inside as well.

5. The sound from the engine is different. It sounds more powerful.

6. The smell from the exhaust is much nicer.


Thoughts about E85 for those who like to go one step further:

Since E85 is more knock-resistent you can modify your engine to make better use of the properties of the fuel and thereby gain both power and mileage at the same time. You can benefit from:
* Advancing the timing (statically or dynamically).
* Raising the compression ratio by milling the head down.
* Still maintain a high boost level in conjuction with high CR.
* In some cases you can run a slightly leaner mixture under part-load or WOT that will benefit the mileage and give head-room for more boost.

* If you have an aftermarket EMS you can get a lot out of E85 with careful mapping.
* For those of you that have looked in to Somender Singhīs groove theory, this may be very interesting for you (think: 12:1 CR or more, very advanced timing and high boost...).

* And yes... My chips clearly makes a larger (positive) impact on performance when used with E85 (better AFRīs and more advanced timing).

http://hem.bredband.net/fredrik-persson/Turbobricks/trimchip_small.jpg


Tuning spark maps with E85:

With ethanol you can advance the timing pretty much because of two things:

* Burn rate at different rpm's.

* Octane rating.

Thoughts on LH2.2 and LH2.4:

The stock chips are not very good to run ethanol (E85) on. The spark map is f-ed up even for gasoline use, and even more f-ed up for ethanol. It doesnīt look very good when you view it graphically (think roller coaster). The tuned chips I sell will already be at the limit of knock and have a more consistent map and will therefore work excellent with E85. Then it is just a matter of advancing it further if you desire.

Donīt get me wrong. I am not saying that the stock chips are bad in anyway when it comes to running E85, they are just inefficient. Pinging is definitely not an issue since the spark map is very conservative.

Thoughts on programmable EMS:

Let the piston pass TDC with at least 10 degrees before the peak pressure occurs.

Richer mixture will burn quicker, but... a richer mixture will also raise the threshold of knock.

Follow this rule: MBT = "Minimum ignition for Best Torque". Use the least/smallest possible ignition advance that gives maximum torque.

So... how much advance can you actually run? Since knocking is not the greatest problem with ethanol you should worry about other things, namely the headgasket and other things! You can advance the ignition a lot across the range but how much pressure can the headgasket take? How much pressure can the head bolts take before they stretch? How much force can the rods withstand before bending/breaking?

I ran +3 degrees across the board on my chipped LH2.4 system for a while. It gave me a lot better low end torque but made my engine sound "hard" above 5000rpm at 20psi of boost. The reason it sounded "hard" was that the cylinder pressure was so great at a very early stage of the combustion cycle. It made me gain low end torque but robbed me of horsepower up top.

It is more a rule than an exception that you will have over-advanced the ignition (and thereby loosing power again) before knock occurs on ethanol. The cylinder pressures will therefore become very high so watch the rods/headgasket.

Knock is not proceeded by the rods making a window in the block when running ethanol. The rods will pop out to say hello much earlier than that...

I am now back at the stock setting on my tuned chips again. The torque at low rpm's is lower but I gained top end and the engine sounds healthier.

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And now: How to convert to E85

There is one advanced, and three simple and different ways to convert to E85:

1. The advanced way, tuning and re-flashing the ECU to optimize it for E85.

http://hem.bredband.net/fredrik-persson/Turbobricks/DSC00236.jpg

Advantages:
* The car will be optimized for E85.
* It will be very fuel-efficient.
* More power at the same boost level.

Disadvantages:
* So far, extremely expensive (many hundred up to several thousand dollars).
* You canīt easily go back to gasoline if you want to, unless you feel comfortable with opening the ECU now and then.
* An optimization for E85 causes the injectors to use most of the "overhead" potential they have. Forget being able turn the boost up at all.
* To be able to get any bigger performance gains out of this setup you will need even more performance parts like injectors etc.
* Not the Turbobricks way... :-P


2. An electronical device (piggyback device) that you plug in between the injector wires and the injectors. It will expand the injector pulsewidths by approximately 30% and it will have the possibility of both running on gasoline and E85 by flicking a switch.

http://hem.bredband.net/fredrik-persson/Turbobricks/flextek-2_big.jpg

Advantages:
* Easy to install and use.
* Has the capability of both gasoline and E85.

Disadvantages:
* Expensive ($350+).
* When running in E85 mode it causes the injectors to use most of the "overhead" potential they have. Forget being able turn the boost up at all.
* To be able to get any bigger performance gains out of this setup (when running E85) you will need even more performance parts like injectors etc.
* Not the Turbobricks way... :-P


3. An adjustable fuel pressure regulator.

http://hem.bredband.net/fredrik-persson/Turbobricks/Etanol11.jpg

Advantages:
* Easy to install.
* The car ECU will adapt to the changes (if it is equipped with an O2-sensor).
* Cheap (~$100 including hoses and clamps).
* You can still do (most of) the performance mods listed on Turbobricks.
* Can be used if you want to blend gasoline and E85. You will always have to keep track of the percentual blend of gas/E85 though. If you want to run a blend of gas/E85, for simplicity, decide a percentual blend and stick to it.
* Can benefit from being used in conjuction with conversion alternative #4.
* This looks more like the turbobricks way... :-D

Disadvantages:
* Too high fuel pressure will put unneccesary strain on the fuel pump or kill it.
* Too high fuel pressure will alter the spray pattern and/or hinder the injectors from opening properly.
* You have to set the fuel pressure differently for different blends between gasoline and E85 (doesnīt take more than a few minutes but can be irritating to some).


4. Bigger injectors.

http://hem.bredband.net/fredrik-persson/Turbobricks/0280150558Green.JPG

Advantages:
* Easy to install
* The car ECU will adapt to the changes (if it is equipped with an O2-sensor).
* Cheap (at least if you buy some used ones from a junk-yard or pick-n-pull).
* You can still do all the performance mods listed on Turbobricks.
* Can be used if you want to blend gasoline and E85 (to some degree, more about this further down the page).
* Can benefit from being used in conjuction with conversion alternative #3.
* This looks more like the turbobricks way... :-D

Disadvantages:
* You canīt run on a high percentage of gasoline (will run too rich).
* If you have to run gasoline, you will have to swap back to a set of smaller injectors.


So, we will be looking at the two easiest/cheapest ways which most people think are the best ways of doing it.


Installing a fuel pressure regulator (FPR):

You will need a fuel flow that is roughly 30% (39% or more is preferred) higher than stock. Up to 60% more flow can be used for performance purposes. A good target is 35-40% increase in flow to start with.

Here is an example of increase in flow, and as you can see below, this will yield a very high pressure. Some injectors can take it and some canīt. The fuel pump will also have to work harder. Very good results can be had on a stock car, but if you want to get some performance as well the fuel pump may not support the needed pressure and flow. For performance, an adjustable FPR is best used in conjuction with larger injectors:
* Going from 3bar (43.5psi) of fuel pressure to 4bar (58psi) you will gain ~15% of flow.
* Going from 3bar (43.5psi) of fuel pressure to 5bar (72.5psi) you will gain ~29% of flow.
* To get a satisfying injector flow on stock injectors, you will probably have to go to 5.5bar (80psi) or more...

What you need:

http://hem.bredband.net/fredrik-persson/Turbobricks/PICT0386.jpg

* An adjustable FPR.
* A mounting bracket.
* 30-35" of soft fuel-lines (rubber hose?).
* 20-25" of vacuum-hose.
* A T-junction.
* 4 hose-clamps.
* A fuel pressure gauge is highly recommended.

http://hem.bredband.net/fredrik-persson/Turbobricks/Etanol10.jpg

How to install:

http://hem.bredband.net/fredrik-persson/Turbobricks/Install_1.jpghttp://hem.bredband.net/fredrik-persson/Turbobricks/Install_1_2.jpg

* Run the car until you only have a gallon or so left in the tank.
* De-pressurize the fuel system by pulling fuse #11 (or #1 in some cases) while the car is running.
* Find the stock FPR.
* Connect a fuel-hose between the outlet of the stock FPR and the inlet of the adjustable FPR.
* Connect a fuel-hose between the outlet of the adjustable FPR and the fuel return-line.
* Cut the vacuum hose that connects to the stock FPR and put the T-junction in the middle.
* Connect a new vacuum hose between the T-junction and the vacuum inlet of the adjustable FPR.
* Secure all fuel hoses with hose clamps and make sure there are no leaks (you should be two persons for this, one operating the car and one looking at the connections).
* Fill up with E85.
* Disconnect the vacuum hoses to both FPRīs and set the base fuel pressure to the desired value.
* Connect the vacuum hoses again.

This is what it may look like when it is installed:

http://hem.bredband.net/fredrik-persson/Turbobricks/Install_3.jpg


There is also an alternative FPR that will fit in the stock location, replacing the original FPR.

It is the Holley HLY-512-503-5 and that can be found here: Summit racing, direct link (http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?autofilter=1&part=HLY%2D512%2D503%2D5&N=4294925239+4294839053+4294880914+400178+115&autoview=sku)

It is adjustable between 2.4-4.5bar (35-65psi) of base fuel pressure.

(Thanks to adam_c (http://forums.turbobricks.com/member.php?u=7226) for finding it.)

http://hem.bredband.net/fredrik-persson/Turbobricks/hly-512-503-5_w.jpg


Installing bigger injectors:

The easiest way that gives the best results. Highly recommended!!!

You will need 42% bigger injectors. I use ~50% bigger injectors than stock though, and that works perfect. I also chose a little bigger step up than 42% because of my performance goals.

Example:
* If you are using stock injectors, then look for 42lb/hr injectors or use 37lb/hr injectors (browntops) in conjuntion with an adjustable FPR.
* If you are using 37lb/hr (browntops), then look for 48-52lb/hr injectors, 42-46lb/hr injectors + an adjustable FPR, or just raise the fuel pressure if your fuel pump can handle it.

Calculating useable injector size:
(CURRENT INJECTOR SIZE x 1.42) up to (CURRENT INJECTOR SIZE x 1.6)



945T man (http://forums.turbobricks.com/member.php?u=136) has done an excellent article on how to swap injectors:

How to install Brown Tops on LH 2.2! (http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=20676)

Everything that is said about swapping injectors in that article also goes for E85 on both LH2.2 and LH2.4.

The adjustment of the AMM does not apply to LH2.4 though.



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READ THIS:
An air/fuel-ratio gauge is always recommended when doing any of the two mentioned upgrades. On some vehicles that doesnīt adapt well, you may have to set the base idle and lambda again. You donīt want to run too lean and destroy your engine. LH2.4 will auto-adapt and needs no further adjustments :) .


Good luck and happy driving :cool: ,
Fredrik

Hank Scorpio
06-12-2006, 01:58 AM
Damn, sounds extremely tempting.

What about this:

Mapping 1 ECU for gas but using the 30% larger injectors. Map a second one for E85 and the "correct" injectors. Then you just have to swap ECU's if need be.

Fantastic write up!

745 TurboGreasel
06-12-2006, 02:22 AM
Great to see some others stepping out of the box. Wonder how my TPI wold like it?
Friday I went to our local dirttrack, Watsonville speedway is within earshot, so I gotta go once in a while...
I was noticing how much better the Alky cars going by smelled than their milder gas operated cousins.

Thanks for the nice concise write up (I'm counting on part two beingjust as good)

JohnMc
06-12-2006, 08:26 AM
The bit about LH-Jet Volvo's not having any dissolvable parts in their fuel system gives me a great deal of comfort.

Some info for MS equipped vehicles.

1) MSII and FCS (Fuel Composition Sensor) - It's no suprise that the cramped firmware on MSI boxes can't handle the additional tasks, but MSII already has support for the GM FCS. no need to set up multiple fuel tables, it interpolates the correction factors from the regular gas table based on the reading from the FCS. This would allow you to run various mixtures through the tank (full E85, half & half, E10) with no on-the-fly reconfiguring. Lots o' info: http://www.megasquirt.info/flexfuel.htm

2) MSI boxes - I guess no support for the FCS, and possibly there won't ever be. An alternative would be a dual map setup. One map set up for gas, the other set up for E85. You'd have to run the car pretty close to empty before switching over. I think you can rig up an external switch to flip that will switch between tables so you wouldn't have to have a laptop with you. If you were really l337 you could probably also swap ignition tables and alter your MS-managed boost controller at the same time...

frpe82
06-12-2006, 04:06 PM
The article is as good as finished, and my picture host is back up again.

Please tell me what you think, suggestions etc. and if I have left something out.

You may also ask some relevant questions.

BDKR
06-12-2006, 05:25 PM
I've allways been under the understanding that Ethanol has some negatives in terms of engine longevity.

http://www.journaltimes.com/nucleus/index.php?itemid=3514

The proponents are silent on the fact that any alcohol-based fuel is extremely hard on small engines like outboard motors, snowmobiles, chainsaws, and a wide variety of lawn and garden equipment. Ethanol is also destructive in older vehicles that were not designed to accommodate fuels containing alcohol.


From http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a2_392b.html

Amoco used to put decals on some of its pumps saying "Pure Lead-Free, No Alcohol Added," but now the no-alcohol line is being dropped, in part due to protests from gasohol advocates. Amoco pumps that do have gasohol are prominently labeled, but this is not necessarily the case with all retailers.


It's also been my understanding that ehtanol attracts moisture. Here is a post on a board that is a guy quoting a Mercury (boat engines and stuff) dealer about ethanol.

Also, he stated that boats with polypropylene (plastic) gas tanks need to be kept almost full after use because the Ethanol in the gas attracts moisture by way of the fuel vent. He said that both scenarios can wreak havoc on your motor if you are not vigilant.


Then there is the entry on The Auto Blog about it. http://www.autoblog.com/2006/03/21/is-ethanol-ready-for-its-big-break/
One of the comments is really interesting.

Not only is distribution a problem put the processing into ethanol isn't done in the USA to any degree. Surprised? Then be more surprised that the USA is a net importer of ethanol to meet it's needs. SO if distribution is remedied expect more importing of ethanol!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Currently the largest ethanol processing plant in the USA is being undertaken bya FRENCH company. Get the feeling the Petroleum industry isn't behind this effort???? SOmebody should be...soooooon.


And another...

we have reformulated gas in Northern KY because of EPA. This stuff uses Ethanol. And it S-U-C-K-S! BIG TIME! gives cars here fits! bad performance! bad milage! up to 30% less. and it cost$ more!
makes my ford focus go nuts during summer months. don't know why any one would want it. i would rather ride a bus! and i do every summer.


In short, I'm not really convinced in spite of the aggressive nature with which it's being pushed onto the public. As a fuel, it works, but it's no saviour. The bugs and surrounding issues need to be solved.

Hank Scorpio
06-12-2006, 07:27 PM
Fred, about the "pulse width extender". I've use similar piggybacks (that work after the ECU) and found any change in duty cycle in closed loop causes the ECU to flip out. So Im not really sure how viable that option is.

Also, wouldn't we need to reprogram the ecu's in closed loop to look for a different target AFR than 14.7:1?

JohnMc
06-12-2006, 07:35 PM
The AFR is merely derived from the remaining amount of oxygen present in the exhaust. Ethanol will give the same sort of reading on the O2 sensor at stochiometric as gas would. No changes needed. A wideband gauge would still show 14.7, though, as it has the gasoline specific exhaust oxygen to AFR conversion table hard coded into it.

frpe82
06-12-2006, 07:38 PM
Fred, about the "pulse width extender". I've use similar piggybacks (that work after the ECU) and found any change in duty cycle in closed loop causes the ECU to flip out. So Im not really sure how viable that option is.
Yes, I totally agree. You can´t just flick the switch on the dash and think that everything will be allright and that the car is going to run fine on the other fuel again. It has to re-learn and that is when it gets nasty. The ECU will definitely freak out.

You can´t really do it while you drive, but you can actually do it with the car shut off. I have actually tried it.

Honestly, I didn´t like it...

Also, wouldn't we need to reprogram the ecu's in closed loop to look for a different target AFR than 14.7:1?
No. The narrow band lambda sensor doesn´t have a clue about AFR, only lambda.

The ECU will tune to lambda=1 on idle regardless of the fuel used, and lambda=1 for E85 is 9.8.

frpe82
06-12-2006, 07:59 PM
In response to BDKR´s post:
To me it looks like all those quotes are regarding gasoline with alcohol content (gasohol of different degrees), and that is what most people are referring to in discussions like this. E85 is an alcohol fuel and is not really directly linked to gasoline.

I do agree with you in your claims there Terrence, and I know that gasoline with alcohol content has a negative impact on many engines, both when it comes to longevity/durability and mileage/fuel-economy:
* Most of the engines that gasohol is used in are not optimised for it.
* It is actually proven that engines run like crap on gasohol.
* A blend of gasoline and 25-40% of E85 is not going to do anything for an engine that is not optimized, but may ruin it really quick since it will run too lean.
* E85 with a gasoline content is another thing and if the engine is optimized for it, it will be performing better than the gasoline counterpart.

Did I interpret your post correctly?

Hank Scorpio
06-12-2006, 08:47 PM
The ECU will tune to lambda=1 on idle regardless of the fuel used, and lambda=1 for E85 is 9.8.

Ohhh... duh. Ok I get you now. That makes sense

fivealive
06-13-2006, 11:17 AM
in response to BDKR's post:

the main problem with ethanol as i see it does not have to do with cars. if you have made the proper mods/adjustments, E85 will run just fine and will have no effect on engine longevity or performance. people who complain about these problems have not tuned their engines to handle ethanol.

the real problem is production and distribution of ethanol in the United States. due to it's water-attracting properties, ethanol cannot be transported in piplines with current technology - a new pipline infastructure would have to be built.

therefore, ethanol production is going to have to be fairly local, and/or it will have to be trucked in. several railroad companies have plans to develop the "virtual pipline" of railroad tankers, but if it all has to be trucked/transported on trains, that's going to drive the price up and lower the overall societal efficiency of using ethanol as a fuel source.

as far as production, we could theoretically produce enough ethanol to feed the US's extreme consumption of fuel (over half the miles driven in the world each day are driven in the US, while the US makes up less than 5% of the world's population). however, we are no where near ready to produce this much ethanol if gasoline did run out....

just my 2c on the whole thing.

IceCold4x4
06-13-2006, 03:34 PM
Just curious frpe82 could the group-buy chips you have be converted for use as 85 IE more performance oriented e85 tune???

if so some 50 lb injectors may make the list of my wanted mods.

charlotte001
06-13-2006, 04:14 PM
Does anyone know if this kit is available in the UK ? If not what is it's website so I can go speak with them.

Deciding which way to go LPG or E85 Ethanol has just hit the UK Norwich being one of the first places to trial it and would be interesting to see how it runs

Charlotte

frpe82
06-13-2006, 06:20 PM
Just curious frpe82 could the group-buy chips you have be converted for use as 85 IE more performance oriented e85 tune???

if so some 50 lb injectors may make the list of my wanted mods.
The chips in the group-buy can definitely be used in a E85 conversion. You would get better compability for running E85 as well as better mileage and better power.

And yes, the 50lb/hr injectors would be perfect for the conversion.

frpe82
06-13-2006, 06:25 PM
Does anyone know if this kit is available in the UK ?
Which kit?

There are 4 ways to go:

1. Tuning and re-flashing the ECU to optimize it for E85.
2. A piggyback device.
3. An adjustable fuel pressure regulator.
4. Bigger injectors.

IMO, the best way to do the conversion is bigger injectors + chips if you want to boost the performance and mileage...

Tabor
06-13-2006, 08:30 PM
Some models before 1988 on the other hand may have some parts that is not ethanol resistant. If we are talking Volvoīs, then this mainly applies to the non-electronically injection systems such as K-jet etc.

I want to convert my K-Jet car. Do you know WHICH parts are not resistant? Is it the fuel lines or... ?

fivealive
06-13-2006, 08:51 PM
I want to convert my K-Jet car. Do you know WHICH parts are not resistant? Is it the fuel lines or... ?

I would guess the main problem area would be the control pressure regulator (CPR). If you have ever taken one apart, you'll know what I'm talking about. I don't think the insides could stand up to ethanol. Fuel distributor might not like it either. Fuel lines probably wouldn't be a super big deal.

Also, since bigger injectors for K-Jet are not readily available (to my knowledge), you may have problems with the engine leaning out unless you shim the control pressure regulator in some manner to lower the control pressure, thus increasing the fuel flow to the injectors.

What I plan to do is to have the parts on hand for an LH-Jet swap (or dual carbs possibly) and try out E85 with K-Jet first. If it doesn't work well (which it probably won't) I'll do the swap.

frpe82
06-13-2006, 09:00 PM
I want to convert my K-Jet car. Do you know WHICH parts are not resistant? Is it the fuel lines or... ?
Probably most of the natural rubber and cork gasketed parts in pumps, connections, distributors etc.

Cars before 1988 was not certified or tested for E5 or E10 (normally referred to as gasohol and it is the most common fuel in the pumps all over the world today). Yes, E5 or E10 is the ordinary gasoline sold, and E5 and E10 is referring to the percentage of ethanol that is blended into the gasoline.

Cars newer than 1988 is certified for use with E10 and will tolerate ethanol.

There are many cars made before 1988 that will tolerate E85, though they are not certified for it. I donīt know if the pre-1988 K-jet Volvoīs can tolerate it or not because I canīt find a list over compatible pre-1988 cars at the moment.

Here is a link to a private page with a list of some of the people that have tried to convert their cars to E85: http://ahman.1go.dk/bilar.htm

The link is written in Swedish and if you want to ask about a translation of some part, please send me a PM and I will respond as soon as possible.

fivealive
06-14-2006, 12:36 AM
Here is a link to a private page with a list of some of the people that have tried to convert their cars to E85: http://ahman.1go.dk/bilar.htm

Interesting website... I'm not the best at swedish, but I figured out some of it regarding the K-Jet people.

A guy with a 1979 K-Jet Audi managed to run E85 with just a CPR adjustment - seems like he reduced the control pressure if I am understanding it right.

Another guy with a 1986 K-Jet Audi says that he adjusted the timing 8 degrees advanced and adjusted the CO, and has been running ethanol for 3 years without a problem.

There is also a guy with a 1985 K-Jet Mercedes says that he adjusted the CO and it works for him.

All these guys are running 100% ethanol and doing ok. I sent the first guy an email asking how long he's run ethanol in it and how it is working out. Maybe K-Jet can take E85 ok with some adjustments to CO and control pressure.

frpe82
06-14-2006, 10:36 AM
If you look at the link, you can also choose to download an Excel sheet instead of looking at the HTML version: http://ahman.1go.dk/

I think the Excel sheet is a little easier to read.

Both the HTML page and the Excel sheet is updated with new cars a couple of times per month.

Tick
06-15-2006, 01:16 AM
What is the avg. difference in iat?

And how much farther could you go with a heat spacer?

How much advance and at what psi have you run on it and have you had any sort of ping yet?

frpe82
06-15-2006, 06:02 AM
What is the avg. difference in iat?
Before the point of injection there is of course no change in IAT, but after the point of injection the intake charge is being cooled a lot more than with gas because of the low AFR numbers.

And how much farther could you go with a heat spacer?
Heat spacer?
Are you talking about one of those thick low-conducting gaskets?

How much advance and at what psi have you run on it and have you had any sort of ping yet?
I have not tried a lot of advance over what my "redblock chips" already gives, but you can run MUCH more boost because of 104-105 octane and a cooler intake charge.

You can also raise the CR a lot without pinging and thereby increasing the power and fuel-efficiency. I have not done this yet, but it is on my list to do in the future. (Somender Singhīs groove theory is also something I would like to try)

A lot of people that are running LH2.2 have advanced their timing statically with around 10 degrees. How much advance that is possible I do not know, but if you were to advance the timing in the map of LH2.4, MS or any other aftermarket EMS you could probably get equally or better mileage and power with E85 than gasoline.

The only ping I have experienced is heat-induced due to 15-16psi on a 13C at 4500rpm+ on kick-down, and that is what you might expect with the stock turbo/IC at those boost levels actually, regardless of fuel. Also, add the KG2T and a 3" exhaust with race-cat to that equation and you will see that the 13c is miles out of its efficiency range...

Tick
06-15-2006, 10:35 AM
Before the point of injection there is of course no change in IAT, but after the point of injection the intake charge is being cooled a lot more than with gas because of the low AFR numbers.


Isn't there an opposite heat-soak effect? Meaning the charge cools the manifold in general, dropping iat at the sensor?


Heat spacer?
Are you talking about one of those thick low-conducting gaskets?


Yeah, like a 25mm spacer to stop heat from the head passing into the manifold.


I have not tried a lot of advance over what my "redblock chips" already gives, but you can run MUCH more boost because of 104-105 octane and a cooler intake charge.


Keep us updated as you push the limits on this experiment further. I'm picturing an icy intake mani and a glowing turbo.

Great write up btw.

frpe82
06-15-2006, 04:44 PM
Isn't there an opposite heat-soak effect? Meaning the charge cools the manifold in general, dropping iat at the sensor?
There is no IAT sensor. At least not on LH2.2/LH2.4. And since the injectors are placed in the end of the manifold next to the head, the manifold will not be much cooler at all. The head and valves as well as all the other things mentioned will of course be kept cooler with E85 though.

Yeah, like a 25mm spacer to stop heat from the head passing into the manifold.
I have seen those in action and they work remarkebly well actually. The manifold stays a lot cooler. It may be concidered a good upgrade.

Keep us updated as you push the limits on this experiment further. I'm picturing an icy intake mani and a glowing turbo.
This usually happens when the temperature drops. As soon as you start to give it some gas it will start to ice up around the fuel-rail and the injectors, while the turbo starts to glow. Kinda' cool if you ask me...:-D (Many people have given their reports on this, so it is actually true)

Great write up btw.
Thanks!

Billiam500
06-15-2006, 05:37 PM
The bit about LH-Jet Volvo's not having any dissolvable parts in their fuel system gives me a great deal of comfort.

Some info for MS equipped vehicles.

1) MSII and FCS (Fuel Composition Sensor) - It's no suprise that the cramped firmware on MSI boxes can't handle the additional tasks, but MSII already has support for the GM FCS. no need to set up multiple fuel tables, it interpolates the correction factors from the regular gas table based on the reading from the FCS. This would allow you to run various mixtures through the tank (full E85, half & half, E10) with no on-the-fly reconfiguring. Lots o' info: http://www.megasquirt.info/flexfuel.htm

2) MSI boxes - I guess no support for the FCS, and possibly there won't ever be. An alternative would be a dual map setup. One map set up for gas, the other set up for E85. You'd have to run the car pretty close to empty before switching over. I think you can rig up an external switch to flip that will switch between tables so you wouldn't have to have a laptop with you. If you were really l337 you could probably also swap ignition tables and alter your MS-managed boost controller at the same time...
What about MSI running only E85- not some random mix of ethanol and gas?

JohnMc
06-15-2006, 05:42 PM
What about MSI running only E85- not some random mix of ethanol and gas?
Assuming your injectors won't max out, just up the req fuel number by 39%. And call it a day.

frpe82
06-16-2006, 09:47 PM
I just wanted to say that they lowered the price of E85 in Sweden today.

Before today it cost me 7.99sek/L = $1.12/L = $4.24/gallon.
Today it cost me 7.24sek/L = $1.01/L = $3.82/gallon.

Compare that to the gas price of 12.49sek/L = $1.75/L = $6.62/gallon.

Lord Tentacle
06-19-2006, 04:34 PM
No. The narrow band lambda sensor doesnīt have a clue about AFR, only lambda.

The ECU will tune to lambda=1 on idle regardless of the fuel used, and lambda=1 for E85 is 9.8.

what about an LC1 wideband?
I cant remember if it bases the analog output signel off of the afr
or if its a direct corrilation to lamda...
(aka do i need to reprogram it....)

JohnMc
06-19-2006, 04:40 PM
You'd need to program it if you wanted to see different numbers on E85. But really, why bother? It would then read 'low' on straight gas. Just understand that a reading of 14.7 is still stochiometric, regardless of the fuel used. Any higher numbers, you are running lean. Any lower numbers, you are running rich. Converting the exhaust gas numbers back to an AFR is just a purely cosmetic, aesthetic step, not crucial to anything.

All the gauge knows is that the wideband sensor voltage is somewhere between 0 and 5 volts. Past that, the numbers it shows you are entirely arbitrary.

Lord Tentacle
06-19-2006, 05:44 PM
You'd need to program it if you wanted to see different numbers on E85. But really, why bother? It would then read 'low' on straight gas. Just understand that a reading of 14.7 is still stochiometric, regardless of the fuel used. Any higher numbers, you are running lean. Any lower numbers, you are running rich. Converting the exhaust gas numbers back to an AFR is just a purely cosmetic, aesthetic step, not crucial to anything.

All the gauge knows is that the wideband sensor voltage is somewhere between 0 and 5 volts. Past that, the numbers it shows you are entirely arbitrary.

i'm using the LC1 as my only o2 sensor
hence why i'm asking
because you can actualy use the programming to recentre what is stoch...
but from my understanding as long as i have it programmed into the LC1 that lambda = 1 = .45v for the output to the ECU it will work just fine....

frpe82
06-19-2006, 05:49 PM
what about an LC1 wideband?
I cant remember if it bases the analog output signel off of the afr
or if its a direct corrilation to lamda...
(aka do i need to reprogram it....)
You have to set the fuel type to ethanol in the "LM programmer 3.0" program that came with the LC1 WB sensor. Look at page 12 in the manual: http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/support/manual/LC-1_Manual.pdf

davidmacq
06-23-2006, 11:52 AM
Couple questions. I have 42 and 46lb injectors.

Will an adjustable fpr allow you to lower the fuel pressure lower than normal?





I was thinking larger injectors with lower fuel pressure. To keep from maxing out the fuel pump and leave some room to grow, and also allow different injectors to be used.

I understand also that there are lower and higher bosch fpr's that will work. 2.5 fpr, 3.5 fpr, etc, maybe a 4.0. Any similiar bosch design.

What are factory injector lb/hr?

Like maybe you could throw in a 2.5fpr, 46lb injectors and run gas, then bump it up with the adjustable fpr for e85, etc. If you could lower the fpr lower than 3.0 with the adjustable it wouldn't be needed I guess?

What's this about special injectors for e85?

frpe82
06-23-2006, 10:19 PM
Will an adjustable fpr allow you to lower the fuel pressure lower than normal?
Only if you replace the stock FPR, not by putting another FPR in series with the stock one.

What are factory injector lb/hr?
30-32lb/hr depending on year and model.

Like maybe you could throw in a 2.5fpr, 46lb injectors and run gas, then bump it up with the adjustable fpr for e85, etc. If you could lower the fpr lower than 3.0 with the adjustable it wouldn't be needed I guess?
You would need less fuel than 46lb/hr injectors @ 2.5bar to run gasoline, unless you are running a bigger AMM to offset the fuel map.

What's this about special injectors for e85?
There is really nothing special about them other than that they are certified for E85. Most injectors that came with an electronic EMS will work. At least the ones we use for our Volvoīs (like the ones that came on S60/V70R, browntops, CFIīs etc.).

frpe82
06-24-2006, 08:07 AM
I am now represented in the HTML and Excel documents on http://ahman.1go.dk/

Even Turbobricks.com made it in to the documents.

ovlov760
06-25-2006, 11:51 PM
Were all '88 Volvos made to work with ethanol? I wonder if my Walbro is E85 tolerant and if the Ford CFI injectors are.

frpe82
06-26-2006, 12:24 AM
Were all '88 Volvos made to work with ethanol? I wonder if my Walbro is E85 tolerant and if the Ford CFI injectors are.
The Walbro is of a pretty modern design, and it is not designed specifically for gasoline. It doesnīt have any natural rubber or cork-gasketed parts. I have a single in-tank pump as well ('98 945T), it is from Volvo and was designed to run at least E10 and is therefore ethanol certified. I am 100% sure the Walbro will work excellent.

I am running CFIīs with E85, and I am probably not the only one. And how many people actually use the CFIīs in their modded Volvoīs every day, or drive the original cars the CFIīs came from? Many! And what fuel are they running? At least 90% of all those vehicles all over the world have been running on E5 or E10 for the last couple of years.

frpe82
07-07-2006, 11:27 PM
A little more interesting reading for you guys...

Added section to the article in post #1: Performance application and fuel needed

frpe82
07-11-2006, 10:00 AM
Some studies has been made to estimate some other effects of E85 other than the usual things mentioned before. A comparison was made regarding the relationship between E85 and gasoline, and how good the cooling properties are:

An engine at operating temperature (of 82*C I think it was) with the supply of 20*C warm air and 20*C warm E85 has equal performance / cooling properties as the same engine running 20*C warm air and an equivalent of -63*C cold gasoline...!

Of course, gasoline would not even work at those low temperatures but the cooling effect of E85 is equivalent to -63*C gasoline when both are at the same lambda value.

And yes, for good performance you still need a good intercooler. Not really for the sake of avoiding pinging and detonation, but the intercooler makes the air more dense and therefore you can push more air-mass into the cylinders and get more power.

Unregistered
07-15-2006, 03:52 PM
I've allways been under the understanding that Ethanol has some negatives in terms of engine longevity.

http://www.journaltimes.com/nucleus/index.php?itemid=3514


From http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a2_392b.html


It's also been my understanding that ehtanol attracts moisture. Here is a post on a board that is a guy quoting a Mercury (boat engines and stuff) dealer about ethanol.


Then there is the entry on The Auto Blog about it. http://www.autoblog.com/2006/03/21/is-ethanol-ready-for-its-big-break/
One of the comments is really interesting.


And another...


In short, I'm not really convinced in spite of the aggressive nature with which it's being pushed onto the public. As a fuel, it works, but it's no saviour. The bugs and surrounding issues need to be solved.

Hey guys, learn, learn.
There are a lot of very uneducated statements here. Ethanol is a far superior fuel than Hydrocarbon fuels, "OIL/Gasoline."
Truth, if you just pour it into a none Ethonal tuned system it will be a real problem as you seem to think it is. The other possibility here is that you are paid to say these things by the oil companies.
I really don't believe that but the possibility exists.
No we will not need to emport Ethanol from anywhere. No the largest ethanol maker in the US isn't a foregin owned agent. It is a U.S. Farmer owned company in Iowa.
It also appears that those of you posting here think E-85 is something you mix with gasoline.
E-85 is 15% gasoline, 85% ethanol hence the E-85 label, "E for ethanol, 85 for 85%.
If your worried about reporgramming your ECM for each of or mixtures of the ethanol/gasoline then look at the MegaSquirt ECM. You can do almost as much as you please with this system.
You do have to learn, learn and think, think! Of course the oil companies are not going to support this but the security of this country is at stake on this oil problem. Watch the news. If we didn't need oil, if just 50% of the U.S. population would make thier own fuel and help their neighbor who can't/won't we would need oil only for durable goods like plastics, other synthetics, drugs, chemicals that only can be made from, "petrochemicals", "hydrocarbons" and live in a cleaner environment.
My old man used to say, "boy you need to enguage your brain before running your mouth."
You all sound like intellegent people and you seem to be WEB savvy so do some research.
Learn, the info is here. If you don't understand, talk to someone who does, "it's called totoring".
Have fun! Burn clean/cheap/free fuel.
I make about 1500 gal of ethanol each year.
I use absolutely free energy to distill it.
I built the still.
You can too.
I don't mix ethanol with gasoline.
I don't want that crap, "gasoline" in my machines. For your info I fly a home built aircraft that cruises at 410 mph at sea level. At 25,000 ft that is very close to the speed of sound. It uses ethanol. I make it to the West coast from Texas in about 2.5 hours if the jet stream is below 100mph. If it is that fast I load on another 20 gal or so of jet fuel before I leave the coast, Phew, nasty stuff so as to get back nonestop.
No I'm not going to offer to do the tutoring on ethanol, injectors, ECM's, aircraft.
It is easy to do.
Bottom line....... learn, learn, learn,
If your still in High School, stay and learn, learn, learn.
It doesn't take a high IQ for this it takes a little effort. Learn, learn, learn.
I've been using ethanol since 1973.
At first I used it outside the law when it was nearly impossible to make it legaly.
Now it would be stupid to break the law. It is easy to get a license to make your own brew for fuel.
P.S. I also inject a small amount of Hydrogen into the airstream entering the engines of my road vehicles that causes the primary fuel, "ethanol, gasoline etc" to change the mode of combustion to the hydrogen cumbustion mode making the burn even cleaner, faster proprogating and allowing ingition timing to be after top dead center thus saving the load of compressing against an already started combustion process like is occuring when fireing before TDC.
More miles per gallon.
More power where it belongs, "the wheels".

Same machine tuned for pure ethanol will out perform gasoline in almost every way.
1. mileage
2. brute power
3. cleaner
4. longivity
5. maintainance
6. etc,etc,etc,etc
The only people who are saying bad things about Ethanol, Ethanol mixes, "E-85", Hydrogen etc are either oil investors, producers or people who just don't understand the combustion process.
Those who don't understand the process are probably stating their opinion from making a half baked attempt to burn something besides gasoline or hydrocarbon Diesel.
It isn't any harder to burn good fuel verses the damned garbage that's been sold to us ever since Henry Ford got into a relation with the oil producers back when.
Misinformation and ignorance is the largest problem.

davidmacq
07-16-2006, 11:22 AM
I'm going to order the adjustable fpr from summit. What fittings needed to add a guage also?

I was looking at this
Actron Fuel Pressure Testers
http://static.summitracing.com/global/images/prod/large/sun-cp7818_w.jpg
but the pdf instructions say not for flex fuel, gasoline only. lol




edit

• Do not use the Fuel Pressure Tester Kit on Diesel or Flex Fuel engines.
• Only use the Fuel Pressure Tester Kit on Gasoline powered engines.
http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?autofilter=1&part=SUN%2DCP7818&N=0&autoview=sku

frpe82
07-19-2006, 07:36 PM
Later on, I will try this mod in conjuction with E85: Advance/retard timing on EZ116K (http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=75838)

If we can sort it out, it will definitely be a great benefit when running E85. It is said that somewhere between 9 to 12 degrees of extra ignition advance works great with E85.

The mileage will be a lot better and the power will be much greater that what is achieveable on gasoline.

When you are running E85 and a lot of advanced timing, the statements "-That turbo will only be enough for 300HP", "-Get a bigger IC" and "-I have trouble with pinging" will not be heard/used very often.

People in Sweden has run ~330HP and ~350lb/ft of torque on E85 when using this setup and similar:

16T turbo (18psi of boost)
VX3 cam
531 head
48lb/hr injectors
9.0:1 CR
Chipped fuel ECU
Stock ignition ECU

http://www.b-free.se/racers/pics/bromspapper1.jpg


Same setup on gasoline:

http://www.b-free.se/racers/pics/bromspapper2.jpg

frpe82
07-20-2006, 05:47 PM
The current setup from the guy mentioned above:

19T turbo, ported, MBC 14-21psi
531 head
VX3 cam
Renovated bottom end
3" AMM (transplanted the electronics to an aluminum pipe)
3" downpipe, cat, mufflers and pipes
Iveco aluminum IC
780cc injectors @3 bar
Fuel and ignition maps from Turbo Center in Stockholm.

This resulted in 370HP and 575 NM (424lb/ft)

http://www.b-free.se/racers/pics/bromsning370.jpg

davidmacq
07-21-2006, 02:26 AM
I'm gonna order the adjustable fpr. Should make it easy to install.

What about fittings for fuel pressure guage. Can it just be hooked up to the test valve on the fuel rail, and left or removed as needed?

frpe82
07-21-2006, 06:25 AM
I'm gonna order the adjustable fpr. Should make it easy to install.

What about fittings for fuel pressure guage. Can it just be hooked up to the test valve on the fuel rail, and left or removed as needed?
The test valve on the rail is a shrader valve (the same as used on your tires), so if you can find a gauge with that type of connection or make an adapter for it, then it would probably work fine.

Donīt connect/disconnect the gauge while the car is running. Youīll never know how good the valve will seal.

Measure the base fuel pressure with the vacuum hose disconnected.

frpe82
08-05-2006, 08:45 PM
I just wanted to tell you that I have raised my fuel pressure to 4bar to support my performance goals. I used the Malpassi AIR004 linear FPR that is pictured in the first post. It works like a charm.

Unregistered
08-16-2006, 04:34 PM
Has anyone looked into simply adding 1 injector behind the thottle body? The idea is to choose an injector that pumps 30% or more of the combined output of the four stock injectors. Run the new injector in parallel off one of the stock injectors. Now you can plug and unplug it when you want to switch from E85 or petrol. An AFPR or piggyback would still be useful in tuning it all in.

SteveMD
08-16-2006, 09:27 PM
I must say this has been one of the most interesting articles I have ever read on TB or the intraweb for that matter. E85 FTW! Thanks to Fred for all he has done for Volvo performance.

davidmacq
08-17-2006, 10:02 PM
What psi range does the Malpassi support? Cost?

Not a direct replacement like the Holley?

Matt Dupuis
08-26-2006, 09:43 AM
No we will not need to emport Ethanol from anywhere. No the largest ethanol maker in the US isn't a foregin owned agent. It is a U.S. Farmer owned company in Iowa.
...
Of course the oil companies are not going to support this but the security of this country is at stake on this oil problem. Watch the news. If we didn't need oil, if just 50% of the U.S. population would make thier own fuel and help their neighbor who can't/won't we would need oil only for durable goods like plastics, other synthetics, drugs, chemicals that only can be made from, "petrochemicals", "hydrocarbons" and live in a cleaner environment.

From The Oil Drum, http://www.theoildrum.com/story/2006/5/23/23846/0807

If you listen to the news lately, you know that E85 is going to lead the U.S. to energy independence, just like it did in Brazil. Senator Hillary Clinton has announced that she is getting into the act (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060523/ap_on_el_se/clinton_energy;_ylt=AtMpnfuwsMTu3eOwarxQb5ys0NUE;_ ylu=X3oDMTA3OXIzMDMzBHNlYwM3MDM-):
"President Bush and other elected officials have called for a greater expansion of E-85, a fuel made of 85 percent ethanol that can be used in vehicles built to run on both regular unleaded gasoline and E-85. E-85 is currently available in less than one percent of the country's gas stations, and Clinton wants to accelerate the spread of the fuel to half of the nation's gas stations by 2015 by offering a 50 percent tax credit for station owners who install ethanol pumps. `We've got to take action on this pump issue or we're just spinning our wheels,' she said."

<!-- close introtext -->There's more... (705 words) (http://www.theoildrum.com/story/2006/5/23/23846/0807#more) | Comments (232) (http://www.theoildrum.com/story/2006/5/23/23846/0807#comments) | Permalink (http://www.theoildrum.com/story/2006/5/23/23846/0807)
<!-- close story_summary -->Just spinning our wheels. Indeed. But let's do a reality check and see whose wheels are spinning. These claims deserve a mathematical analysis, which none of the E85 proponents appear to have done.
According to http://www.corn.org/CRAR2005.PDF (http://www.corn.org/CRAR2005.PDF) (Warning: 1.9 meg file) the estimated corn harvest in 2005 was 10.35 billion bushels, and corn exports were 1.95 billion bushels. According to the 2002 USDA study Estimating the Net Energy Balance of Corn Ethanol (http://www.transportation.anl.gov/pdfs/AF/265.pdf), you can get 2.7 gallons of ethanol from a bushel of corn. That means if we turned the entire corn crop into ethanol, we could make 27.9 billion gallons of ethanol. But as we all know, the BTU value of ethanol is around 67% that of gasoline, meaning that on a BTU basis this much ethanol is equivalent to 18.8 billion gallons of gasoline.
According to the Bureau of Transportation Statistics, our annual gasoline consumption is up to almost 140 billion gallons. (http://www.bts.gov/publications/national_transportation_statistics/2005/html/table_04_10.html) That means on a BTU equivalent basis, converting the entire corn crop into ethanol would amount to 13.4% of our annual gasoline demand. Putting all of that ethanol into the gasoline supply would mean ethanol could comprise 19% of the gasoline supply on a volumetric basis (while consuming all of our corn production). In other words, all of the gasoline in the country could be E19 if we wanted to use 100% of the corn crop. Of course if we only want to turn all of our current exports into ethanol (ignoring the many implications), that would amount to 2.5% of our annual gasoline demand. In that case, E10 could make up about a third of our gasoline supply on a volumetric basis. If we want to convert all of the corn exports into E85, it could make up 3.3% of our total gasoline pool.
But that's the good news. According to the previously mentioned USDA study, it takes 77,228 BTUs of fossil fuel inputs to make 83,961 BTUs of "green, renewable" ethanol. Ignoring co-products for a moment, that means the created energy was a mere 8% in excess of the input energy. Given that the fossil fuels (primarily natural gas) that went into making the ethanol can usually serve as transportation fuels, the amount of transportation fuel that is displaced is only the 8% that was "created". That means that in reality, using our entire corn crop would only displace 1% of our annual gasoline consumption. If we only decide to use our exports, the net displacement of gasoline would be 0.2% of our annual gasoline consumption.
Now, a word about co-products. Energy balance studies of grain ethanol almost always include a BTU credit for the co-products (mostly animal feed). I think this is appropriate, provided that a proper analysis is made of the energy inputs into the products that were displaced. Let's ignore for a moment the fact that some estimates indicate that the "byproduct markets could saturate well short of 11 billion gallons of production" (http://www.foreignpolicy.com/story/cms.php?story_id=3411&print=1). Let's give full credit for the byproducts, just as if they are liquid fuels to be burned. This has no effect on the BTU equivalent calculation, but will affect the displacement calculation. With by-products included, the USDA report has 77,228 BTUs of fossil fuel inputs for 98,333 BTUs of total outputs. In this best case scenario, the ratio of energy out/energy in is 1.27. Converting 100% of the corn crop into ethanol, presuming we had a market for the byproducts, would then displace an incredible 2.0% of our annual gasoline consumption. So, why the big rush to get E85 pumps at 50% of the nation's gas stations? We can't possibly produce enough E85 to justify putting in all those pumps. Wouldn't it be much better just to push for E10 at more locations? In that case, expensive new pumps are not required, and E10 can already be burned in most vehicles on the road. Or how about encouraging more natural gas vehicles, instead of inefficiently and expensively turning natural gas into ethanol? But I suppose those would be rational solutions, as opposed to feel-good solutions that promise energy independence.

So much for no longer needing oil, huh?

frpe82
08-26-2006, 07:41 PM
What psi range does the Malpassi support? Cost?

Not a direct replacement like the Holley?

The Malpassi I bought (in Sweden) cost me $95 and supports 14.5-72.5psi (1-5bar).

And no, the Malpassi is not a direct replacement but a FPR you put in series with the original one.

JW240
12-06-2006, 11:55 AM
**** our posts from yesterday discussing the 5th injector setup are missing....

Summary:
When you need to drive on E10 (reg. gas) and E85 as well, a easy solution is a 5th injector. The LH ECU adapts very good to this.
Drive on E10, tank almost empty, tank E85, before you start enable the 5th injector and start the car.
Only 'problem' is how to place the 5th injector, it needs to distribute the fuel evenly between the cylinders.

The 5th injector needs to be around 0.39x4 times bigger than the 4 'main' injectors (on a 4 cylinder engine)

Stereophile33
12-06-2006, 12:58 PM
my car is now running on E85 and wow, just wow. I have a real hard time not running super fast.

I need to work out the kinks for cold start in the mornings, but man the power is awesome.

I just got 210 miles on my first tank on 14.2 gallons of E85. And this is with a 230hp 260ftlb in full weight of 2910 lbs.

frpe82
12-06-2006, 07:04 PM
All threads, info and FAQ is back.

Yep... Now I have worked my ass off and all the threads that got lost or f-ed up in the crash or outdated in the backup are now redone and updated with the latest info.

So the "Chips for redblocks", "Feedback: Chips for redblocks", "Chipping FAQ" and "Converting to E85 (ethanol fuel)" are now back again in full glory.

And yes... I have backups of them all.

:cool: :cool: :cool: :cool: :cool: :cool: :cool: :cool: :cool: :cool: :cool: :cool:

davidmacq
12-07-2006, 05:03 AM
Fred from that other thread, have you decided that the mod to the ignition grounding the pins for advance is not suitable for running e85 due to the higher rpm issues you mentioned?

frpe82
12-07-2006, 05:51 AM
Fred from that other thread, have you decided that the mod to the ignition grounding the pins for advance is not suitable for running e85 due to the higher rpm issues you mentioned?
It is very much dependant on the cam you are running actually but the same basic things applies to all cars that use E85 in a performance application.

I just added this to the main post:

Tuning spark maps with E85:

With ethanol you can advance the timing pretty much because of two things:

* Burn rate at different rpm's.

* Octane rating.

Thoughts on LH2.2 and LH2.4:

The stock chips are not very good to run ethanol (E85) on. The spark map is f-ed up even for gasoline use, and even more f-ed up for ethanol. It doesnīt look very good when you view it graphically (think roller coaster). The tuned chips I sell will already be at the limit of knock and have a more consistent map and will therefore work excellent with E85. Then it is just a matter of advancing it further if you desire.

Donīt get me wrong. I am not saying that the stock chips are bad in anyway when it comes to running E85, they are just inefficient. Pinging is definitely not an issue since the spark map is very conservative.

Thoughts on programmable EMS:

Advice (at a fixed amount of boost):

* 1000 up to 2500-3000rpm = A lot of advance. Probably more than a sane number. A nice increase in torque is definitely expected :-D .

Why? Because ethanol burns slower at low rpm's, AFR's and pressures. You can also use more advance because of the cooling effect and the higher octane rating.

* 2500-3000 up to almost 5000 = a few degrees more advance than on gasoline (3-9 degrees depending on dynamic compression).

Why? Also dependant on the burn rate. Since the engine will have less time to ignite the mixture the advance compared to gasoline will not be as great number, but great in terms of percent.

* From around 5000 and up = Equal to gasoline or slightly more retarded (yes, more spark retard).

Why? Because here you can let the ethanol do its job. Push the piston downwards and not counteract its motion by lighting the air/fuel mixture off too early. It only leads to unnessecary high cylinder pressure.

Let the piston pass TDC with at least 10 degrees before the peak pressure occurs.

Richer mixture will burn quicker, but... a richer mixture will also raise the threshold of knock.

Follow this rule: MBT = "Minimum ignition for Best Torque". Use the least/smallest possible ignition advance that gives maximum torque.

So... how much advance can you actually run? Since knocking is not the greatest problem with ethanol you should worry about other things, namely the headgasket and other things! You can advance the ignition a lot across the range but how much pressure can the headgasket take? How much pressure can the head bolts take before they stretch? How much force can the rods withstand before bending/breaking?

I ran +3 degrees across the board on my chipped LH2.4 system for a while. It gave me a lot better low end torque but made my engine sound "hard" above 5000rpm at 20psi of boost. The reason it sounded "hard" was that the cylinder pressure was so great at a very early stage of the combustion cycle. It made me gain low end torque but robbed me of horsepower up top.

It is more a rule than an exception that you will have over-advanced the ignition (and thereby loosing power again) before knock occurs on ethanol. The cylinder pressures will therefore become very high so watch the rods/headgasket.

Knock is not proceeded by the rods making a window in the block when running ethanol. The rods will pop out to say hello much earlier than that...

I am now back at the stock setting on my tuned chips again. The torque at low rpm's is lower but I gained top end and the engine sounds healthier.

frpe82
12-29-2006, 08:58 PM
Some info for you who are using / will be using E85:

Regardless of engine managment system used, there are some things that differ between gasoline and ethanol fuel (E85).

At cold start / cold running:

When you look at your AFR gauge/meter (set to measure the AFR of E85 of course, stoichiometric value of 9.765) you will notice some strange things. When the engine (the intake manifold and head in particular) is cold, the AFR gauge will often show lean before the engine has warmed up a bit. It will not show leaner than stoichiometric (9.765) though, but close to stoichiometric.

An engine running gasoline will show rich at cold start and cold running.

Why?

Because E85 condensates much easier on the surface of the intake manifold and head than gasoline, and will not enter the cylinders as a fine mist.

Solution: If you have a programmable EMS, then adjust the cold start settings to deliver a lot more fuel during cranking and warmup procedure. In many cases it requires a lot of enrichment.

And I can promise you that even if you use a programmable EMS it is only marginally easier to get the car started. When it goes below a certain temperature it will be hard or impossible to start the car regardless of EMS unless you blend in some gasoline or use an engine heater of some sort. This usually happens below 2-5*C (35-40*F).

Ethanol as solvent:

Ethanol will not dissolve your fuel lines, injectors or gaskets. Nor will it corrode anything. It is a very common misconseption and the properties of ethanol is often mistaken for the very corrosive properties of methanol.

Upon the first few times of use or the first couple of 1000 miles however, the ethanol will dissolve some residues in the gas tank and fuel lines left there by the gasoline you have used for so long. If you have a lot of sludge in your gas tank and fuel lines it can on some occations clog the fuel filter. I recommend that the fuel filter will be replaced after the first few 1000 miles. After that the gas tank and fuel lines will be clean and you will not have to worry about it anymore (you should not worry about it in the first place either, just take a note of what can happen).

This will eventually be added to the article.

Stereophile33
01-03-2007, 08:47 PM
my car is nearly impossible to start with e85 when it is cold, is there any timing adjustment or anything that can be done to aid this?

Jonathan

frpe82
01-03-2007, 10:03 PM
my car is nearly impossible to start with e85 when it is cold, is there any timing adjustment or anything that can be done to aid this?

Jonathan
How cold?

As you can see in my previous post, the cold-starts are tricky.

What I do: If you add 10% gasoline it will start at very cold weather. Add 20-25% and it will be almost like starting on gasoline.

But the question is again: How cold are we talking about here?

Tamnakz
01-04-2007, 02:10 AM
How realistic is it for me to change an older volvo (late 80's) to stright E85 on a TIGHT budget? 1-200$ max?

frpe82
01-04-2007, 06:54 AM
How realistic is it for me to change an older volvo (late 80's) to stright E85 on a TIGHT budget? 1-200$ max?
Very realistic!

Get a set of bigger injectors for cheap, get them cleaned and installed. Thatīs it.

JohnMc
01-04-2007, 09:46 AM
E85 has done a weird sort of arc in availability here. It was introduced a couple of years ago and priced right (well below gas). Then, for some reason, the prices for it started creeping upwards, until it was at or (in some cases) above the price of gasoline. Obviously not a good deal considering the MPG hit you will be taking. So sales dropped to near nothing, and stations started covering up their E85 pumps. And that's where the situation sits now. I'd like to use it for the 105 octane, but it's not readily available (only a few stations still have their pumps running, none close to me), and too expensive.

When/if the situation returns to reality, I'll try it. I already set up my MS box to do it, roughly set up table 3 by scaling table 1 up 35%, installed a switch to flip to ground JP3 (IIRC) to swap tables, so I could swap between E85 and gasoline without needing a laptop (just run near empty, refill and flip the switch a little bit after starting).

frpe82
01-04-2007, 10:08 AM
E85 has done a weird sort of arc in availability here. It was introduce a couple of years ago and priced righ (well below gas). Then, for some reason, the prices for ti started creeping upwards, until it was at or (in somecases) above the price of gasoline. Obviously not a good deal considering the MPG hit you will be taking. So sales dropped to near nothing, and stations started covering up their E85 pumps. And that's where the situation sits now. I'd like to use it for the 105 octane, but it's not readily available (only a few stations still have their pumps running, none close to me), and too expensive.

When/if the situation returns to reality, I'll try it. I already set up my MS box to do it, roughly set up table 3 by scaling table 1 up 35%, installed a switch to flip to ground JP3 (IIRC) to swap tables, so I could swap between E85 and gasoline without needing a laptop (just run near empty, refill and flip the switch a little bit after starting).
Can you set it up to have a table 3 for ignition as well?

If you can tune the ignition for maximum power you will gain a lot of power and your mpg will be much better. The mpg will not be like on gasoline but considering that you have increased the table with 35%, the mpg wonīt go down with 25-30% (like expected if you only modify the fuel maps) if the spark table is set up right. The decrease in mpg will most likely then be in the 10-20% range.

You can also run a proportionally leaner mixture (a higher lambda) than on gasoline and thereby also save some fuel and increase your mpg.

JohnMc
01-04-2007, 10:42 AM
Yeah, I expected to do a lot of tweaking and tuning when I ever got my hands on the E85, the +35% was just a rough first cut, intended to make the car driveable on its first tank.

With the same switch I swap fuel tables, AFR targets, and ignition tables. So I can tweak Fuel3, AFR3, and Ign2 all to specifically suit the ethanol. And still swap back and forth between gas and E85 with one flip of the switch.

frpe82
01-04-2007, 05:35 PM
Yeah, I expected to do a lot of tweaking and tuning when I ever got my hands on the E85, the +35% was just a rough first cut, intended to make the car driveable on its first tank.

With the same switch I swap fuel tables, AFR targets, and ignition tables. So I can tweak Fuel3, AFR3, and Ign2 all to specifically suit the ethanol. And still swap back and forth between gas and E85 with one flip of the switch.
Nice :-D

suzetteebreo
01-14-2007, 05:02 PM
Hello
I would like to ask how and what is the best possible conversion for my car mercedes c320 2001.I heared that 2003 models are e85 compatible.mine is 2001.
Thank you in advance and highly appreciated!

frpe82
01-14-2007, 05:24 PM
Hello
I would like to ask how and what is the best possible conversion for my car mercedes c320 2001.I heared that 2003 models are e85 compatible.mine is 2001.
Thank you in advance and highly appreciated!
What kind of engine does it have? Has anything been done to it?

The easiest thing to do, is to get injectors that are 30-45% larger than stock. In most cases the adaptation to E85 is handled by the ECU alone if you do it this way, and you donīt have to worry about anything else.

suzetteebreo
01-14-2007, 07:52 PM
What kind of engine does it have? Has anything been done to it?

The easiest thing to do, is to get injectors that are 30-45% larger than stock. In most cases the adaptation to E85 is handled by the ECU alone if you do it this way, and you donīt have to worry about anything else.

thank you for reply.The engine is 3.2L v6 and nothing has been changed eversince i bought the car.the ecu is still original.no modification/s.

frpe82
01-14-2007, 08:09 PM
thank you for reply.The engine is 3.2L v6 and nothing has been changed eversince i bought the car.the ecu is still original.no modification/s.
The easiest thing would be to get bigger injectors. It will always work.

Can you tell me the part number of the injectors? Do you know how much they flow?

suzetteebreo
01-14-2007, 08:28 PM
85212183 the part number of the injectors.will they work without changing the injectors?

Two 87s
01-14-2007, 08:37 PM
Any reason you can't run straight ethanol (like pure grain alcohol by the bottle ;) ) in a Volvo? Is it just a matter of larger injectors, just like E85?

Does that create any larger problems for fuel lines, pumps, etc?

Would the chips for LH 2.2 work well for E100?

Aaron

frpe82
01-15-2007, 04:52 AM
85212183 the part number of the injectors.will they work without changing the injectors?
I will look at it later during the day.

frpe82
01-15-2007, 04:56 AM
Any reason you can't run straight ethanol (like pure grain alcohol by the bottle ;) ) in a Volvo? Is it just a matter of larger injectors, just like E85?

Does that create any larger problems for fuel lines, pumps, etc?

Would the chips for LH 2.2 work well for E100?

Aaron
You can run E100 instead of E85. It is not a problem. You only need a little bit larger injectors than the 30-45% required for E85.

One problem I can think of, is if the intake temperature drops below 15*C. Then it can get a little bit hard to start the car with E100...

It can be resolved by an extreme amount of enrichment and more fuel at cranking.

suzetteebreo
01-15-2007, 04:35 PM
I will look at it later during the day.

GB REMANUFACTURING Part # 85212183
STANDARD MOTOR PRODUCTS Part # FJ603
ACDELCO Part # 2172940 {#19146090}
INJECTOR,M/PORT FUEL
BOSCH Part # 0280155742 {Injection Valve #280155742}

here are some of the injectors part number offered for both c320 3.2L 2001 until 2005

Thanks!

frpe82
01-15-2007, 05:36 PM
GB REMANUFACTURING Part # 85212183
STANDARD MOTOR PRODUCTS Part # FJ603
ACDELCO Part # 2172940 {#19146090}
INJECTOR,M/PORT FUEL
BOSCH Part # 0280155742 {Injection Valve #280155742}

here are some of the injectors part number offered for both c320 3.2L 2001 until 2005

Thanks!
Bosch p/n 0280155742 has a listed flow of 15.8lb/hr (166cc/min) at 43.5psi (3bar) fuel pressure. In that case you would need injectors that will flow 22.4lb/hr (235cc/min). The flow number doesnīt have to be exactly dead on.

Eargasm
01-15-2007, 10:05 PM
Stereophile, how much did you pay for a gallon of E85?

suzetteebreo
01-16-2007, 10:36 AM
Bosch p/n 0280155742 has a listed flow of 15.8lb/hr (166cc/min) at 43.5psi (3bar) fuel pressure. In that case you would need injectors that will flow 22.4lb/hr (235cc/min). The flow number doesnīt have to be exactly dead on.

Thank you!the problem is everytime I check the fuel injector for e85 compatible 2003 c320 the site will tell me they dont have it.do you know the part number of bosch with a higher flow rate?one seller told me this:

Dear Suzette - The injectors are the OEM C320 parts.

No different injectors for E85.

Our set price is $279.50 plus $60 refundable core deposit.

Bruce Holt,
Owner-Fiveomotorsport

I dont know why he say there is no different injector for e85.yesterday i tried to run the car with 2 gallons of e85 with 93 octance gasoline.i just noticed the engine run cooler at around 80centigrade almost all the time unlike before its always on 90centigrade.is it ok if i always add a gallon or two everytime i put gas on my car?will it damage the engine?
thanks!

frpe82
01-16-2007, 06:09 PM
Thank you!the problem is everytime I check the fuel injector for e85 compatible 2003 c320 the site will tell me they dont have it.do you know the part number of bosch with a higher flow rate?one seller told me this:

Dear Suzette - The injectors are the OEM C320 parts.

No different injectors for E85.

Our set price is $279.50 plus $60 refundable core deposit.

Bruce Holt,
Owner-Fiveomotorsport

I dont know why he say there is no different injector for e85.yesterday i tried to run the car with 2 gallons of e85 with 93 octance gasoline.i just noticed the engine run cooler at around 80centigrade almost all the time unlike before its always on 90centigrade.is it ok if i always add a gallon or two everytime i put gas on my car?will it damage the engine?
thanks!
The engine will feel fine even with a lot of E85 blended in actually. It is different from car to car how much they are capable of. 50/50 usually works good on most cars.

When he said that they use the same size injectors for E85, it is probably true. The E85 compatible C230 probably has a different ECU software, if there ever was an E85 version of the C230...? I didnīt know that there was such a thing.

But I can look for larger injectors that might be suitable for you. Other members reading this will probably also chime in with suggestions.

suzetteebreo
01-16-2007, 10:43 PM
The engine will feel fine even with a lot of E85 blended in actually. It is different from car to car how much they are capable of. 50/50 usually works good on most cars.

When he said that they use the same size injectors for E85, it is probably true. The E85 compatible C230 probably has a different ECU software, if there ever was an E85 version of the C230...? I didnīt know that there was such a thing.

But I can look for larger injectors that might be suitable for you. Other members reading this will probably also chime in with suggestions.

Thank you for your help!
I'm looking forward for the part number.Hope my Car(Mercedes C320) can deal with 50/50 mixture for now.

How much octane will it increase if I put 91 octane gasoline with E85?Is there a computation for that?

JohnMc
01-17-2007, 09:24 AM
There's probably a precise calculation, but in general terms just assume you are mixing 91 octane fuel with 105 octane fuel, and just weight the numbers by the relative amounts and average. IN any case, the added octane rating is of no importance unless you are boosting the bejesus out of the car and *need* octane higher than 91.

And adding E85 to the gas shouldn't harm the motor as long as the CEL doesn't come on. As you add E85, you gradually increase the amount of fuel that needs to be injected with each cylinder stroke. The computer will sense this via the oxygen sensor in the exhaust and automatically increase the injection amount as part of its normal feedback operation. The computer has a certain amount of leeway to increase (or decrease) the 'normal' injection amounts to acheive a proper oxygen sensor reading. If it finds it needs to go beyond that limit (whatever it is) it will assume something is mechanically wrong and light up the CEL (check engine light). At that point, the computer might stop trying to adjust the fuel mixture, and you could be in danger of going lean and causing some damage to the motor if driven hard. But as long as the CEL doesn't go on, the computer is adjusting the fuel mixture appropriately and it won't see any problem.

Putting bigger injectors on is just a way to mechanically set the system to inject more fuel, so the computer will be in the middle of its normal operating range when E85 is in the tank. The issue with that is that if you fill it up with gasoline then the computer will be running the motor too rich, and it will have to try and adjust the injection amounts down and it might set off a CEL.

True flex fuel vehicles just have a small sensor in the fuel system that can detect the relative percentage of ethanol in the fuel and the computer then automatically changes its expected injection amounts to suit. So it won't set of a CEl unless something actually does go wrong with either the injection system or the oxygen sensor.

frpe82
01-23-2007, 07:18 PM
There's probably a precise calculation, but in general terms just assume you are mixing 91 octane fuel with 105 octane fuel, and just weight the numbers by the relative amounts and average.
The octane rating will be very close to the blend between the fuels. 50% 91 octane gas and 50% 105 octane E85 (by mass, not volume) will yield around (0.5*91) + (0.5*105) = 98 octane. Give or take 1 or 2 octane.

The octane rating will however go up a lot with very small blends like 80% gasoline and 20% E85. That will probably give you more than the theoretical (0.8*91) + (0.2*105) = 93.8 octane. Probably closer to 95 octane.

frpe82
01-23-2007, 07:43 PM
Since this is my first winter on E85, I have made some tests and observations.

The tests made here are valid on my car only and may differ from your setup.

What is true for all cars running E85 though, is:

At ~15*C ethanol starts to condensate at the metal sufaces. And at ~2-5*C it is starting to get hard to get the required fuel to enter the cylinders which results in difficulties starting the car. The temperatures mentioned here are the temperatures in the intake runners, the head and in the cylinders. The air temperature also has a to do with it, but if your engine is just a little bit warm the car will start right up.

Higher dynamic compression ratio at cranking will help with starting the car. In reality that means that an engine with a T-cam will be easier to start than a K-cam, V15 or KG2T.

Higher static compression ratio will also help the E85 fuel to ignite. In reality that means that a NA car or a +T (9.5:1 CR or higher) will be easier to start than a turbo engine (8.7:1 CR).

OK, now to the tests made on my car:

All tests are made on a cold engine.

100% E85 @ >10*C = Instant start. No difficulties at warmup.

100% E85 @ 5-10*C = Takes 2-3 tries to fire up. Some power loss at warmup.

100% E85 @ 0-5*C = Will start after repeated tries if you wait 10 seconds inbetween. Much power loss at warmup and the car wants to stall if you push it too hard.

100% E85 @ <0*C = Hehe... good luck...

90% E85 + 10% gas @ <10*C = Instant or near instant start. I have only tested this down to -12*C so far, but it will probably start as good at -20*C. Some power loss at warmup.

suzetteebreo
01-28-2007, 11:51 PM
Im now mixing my gasoline with 40 to 50 %of E85 and noticed a slight increase of power.I still like to change the fuel injector so I can fully use E85.Anybody knows where can I buy an injector for my C320?Thanks!

suzetteebreo
02-04-2007, 12:45 PM
Hello

I just want to ask if these MSD fuel injectors will work for my C320 conversion to run on E85?I got these informations at www.horsepowerfreaks.com yesterday.
Thank you!

Universal
Injector, 26lb/hr, 2ohm, (2/0.5A) Quad 4 #6091

Universal
Injector, 24 lb/hr, saturated #6261

frpe82
02-04-2007, 04:23 PM
Hello

I just want to ask if these MSD fuel injectors will work for my C320 conversion to run on E85?I got these informations at www.horsepowerfreaks.com yesterday.
Thank you!

Universal
Injector, 26lb/hr, 2ohm, (2/0.5A) Quad 4 #6091

Universal
Injector, 24 lb/hr, saturated #6261
The flow number is fine, but...

You car uses high impedance injectors, and those are low impedance injectors.

Maybe you can solve it by installing resistors in series with the low impedance injectors...? I donīt know how your injection system works, if it fires the injectors one by one, in pairs or all at once.

suzetteebreo
02-04-2007, 11:56 PM
I see.Thank you for the reply!
I got another one and the brand is Venom.Are these high impendance?

Universal
23 lbs/hr - up to 295hp (Set of 4) #184767
24 lbs/hr - up to 310hp (Set of 8) #133613

suzetteebreo
02-09-2007, 05:22 PM
I bought 24lb injector bosh for 295 dollar US for set of six.I'll set it up this week.Does it bring up my cars horsepower when I put these injectors or it would be just the same other than I can use straight E85?Thanks!

frpe82
02-09-2007, 07:29 PM
I bought 24lb injector bosh for 295 dollar US for set of six.I'll set it up this week.Does it bring up my cars horsepower when I put these injectors or it would be just the same other than I can use straight E85?Thanks!
It will probably raise your power a little since the ignition will never have to back off because of ping. It will also cool better and give a cleaner burn. Many things that contributes a little bit each to give you some power.

suzetteebreo
02-12-2007, 11:19 AM
It will probably raise your power a little since the ignition will never have to back off because of ping. It will also cool better and give a cleaner burn. Many things that contributes a little bit each to give you some power.

Thank you for the reply!
I have a friend who's also interested on using e85 for his 2003 Mitsubishi Lancer OZ and the stock fuel injector is 240cc.Do you think he still has to change his fuel injectors to a bigger size or 240cc will do E85?

Thank you!Now my car is E85 100% running now...!

suzetteebreo
02-12-2007, 11:20 AM
Thank you!Now my car is E85 100% running now...!

mobetta
03-07-2007, 11:45 AM
wow- great write up.
So- I'm game. the E85 around me is generally $.40-.60 less than regular unleaded gasoline(RUG).and the farmer down the road gets paid way better for his corn if i burn this instead of OIL. Here in MN they are building new ethanol plants all over. farmer co-ops, mostly.

the cold start issue may be resolved by installing an old webasto I have, if it burns ethanol OK. or mix RUG with E-85. or switch injectors and burn RUG all winter.

Anyhow- I have a 93 945 with regina. any ideas on where to find/ what vehicles use a lrger injector for this application? If I could find some at the pick and pull, it would only be a $20 bill.

thanks,Mo

frpe82
03-07-2007, 11:51 AM
wow- great write up.
So- I'm game. the E85 around me is generally $.40-.60 less than regular unleaded gasoline(RUG).and the farmer down the road gets paid way better for his corn if i burn this instead of OIL. Here in MN they are building new ethanol plants all over. farmer co-ops, mostly.

the cold start issue may be resolved by installing an old webasto I have, if it burns ethanol OK. or mix RUG with E-85. or switch injectors and burn RUG all winter.

Anyhow- I have a 93 945 with regina. any ideas on where to find/ what vehicles use a lrger injector for this application? If I could find some at the pick and pull, it would only be a $20 bill.

thanks,Mo
What part number do your current injectors have?

Get some that are 35-40% larger.

Maybe the Turbo injectors are suitable...?

mobetta
03-07-2007, 06:09 PM
Ok, the wife's home, and I checked out the injectors. they are blue tops? and the number is 1389563 which is molded into the blue top. also, 182H is stamped on another side, with a heated brand type stamp, it appears.

Is there an online database to research these injectors?
would they push enough fuel with an FPR, or should I be looking for different Injectors?


Is there any major differences that I should be aware of to convert this over, being a NA regina car?

I would love to burn ethanol, as our other car is running used cooking oil, this would make our cars pretty much independent of foreign oil.

thnks,mo

frpe82
03-07-2007, 06:13 PM
I canīt find anything on that number.

Doesnīt the injector have a number that looks like this: 0 280 150 xxx?

mobetta
03-07-2007, 06:29 PM
well, I couldnt see any other no's. heres some pics,though. maybe I am not looking in the right place.

<center>
<img src="http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e303/mohoneywell/volvo/DSCN0980.jpg" alt="Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting"><br><br>
<img src="http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e303/mohoneywell/volvo/DSCN0979.jpg" alt="Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting"><br><br>
<img src="http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e303/mohoneywell/volvo/DSCN0807.jpg" alt="Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting"><br><br>
</center>

frpe82
03-07-2007, 06:55 PM
Ok... so you have Siemens injectors...

I expected Bosch.

After much digging on the internet I found the right specifications for those injectors.

1389563
14.2 ohm
192cc/min @ 3bar

To run E85 you need 42% bigger injectors to be exact. That means that you should look for 273cc/min injectors. The turbo injectors should be ~296cc/min if you use them together with a 2.5bar FPR, but that sounds like it may be too much flow.

I donīt have any suggestions at this time, but the size you should be aiming for is 273cc/min.

CTP_hookz
03-12-2007, 06:55 AM
why cant we have e85 on the east coast. id so be in it,

balls deep

Ruben
03-12-2007, 03:59 PM
@frpe82, I'm aiming for 300+ hp and planning a E85 conversion, how big should my injectors be? I'd like some reserve because future performance goals......

JW240
03-12-2007, 04:03 PM
@frpe82, I'm aiming for 300+ hp and planning a E85 conversion, how big should my injectors be? I'd like some reserve because future performance goals......

you know they are going to sell E85 in Aachen? The Stawag opens its E85 station in the next couple of months :-D
(probably you know since you are doing the conversion :-P)

frpe82
03-12-2007, 06:25 PM
@frpe82, I'm aiming for 300+ hp and planning a E85 conversion, how big should my injectors be? I'd like some reserve because future performance goals......
600cc/min should be sufficient, but some 788cc/min injectors will give you some headroom.

Ruben
03-13-2007, 04:01 AM
Ok Thanks
yeah I knew but don't think I'll be running ethanol before the summer....

Ruben
03-13-2007, 01:30 PM
Do you know where to get injectors for a reasonable price....I've been searching ebay, the 750 cc injectors I've found are all in the pricerange of $350+

frpe82
03-13-2007, 04:40 PM
These are very good:

600cc/min (57lb/hr): http://www.racetronix.com/3102FM.html
788cc/min (75lb/hr): http://www.racetronix.com/3145FM.html

Or you can try to get a set of 490cc/min (46lb/hr) CFIīs or larger. Some people on the forum can get them pretty cheap, and I think that some are for sale now too.

Ruben
03-14-2007, 03:58 AM
That price is a lot better than the ebay stuff I've found, Thanks!
Just another question, What do you think about a grooved head and running ethanol?

frpe82
03-14-2007, 08:19 AM
That price is a lot better than the ebay stuff I've found, Thanks!
Just another question, What do you think about a grooved head and running ethanol?
Only positive results IMO.

Bump the compression a lot as well.

Ruben
03-14-2007, 07:02 PM
so maybe wit grooving I could raise CR or boost even a bit more? Do you know of anyone running ethanol with a grooved head?

frpe82
03-14-2007, 07:05 PM
so maybe wit grooving I could raise CR or boost even a bit more? Do you know of anyone running ethanol with a grooved head?
No, I donīt know anyone who uses a grooved head.

But you can still run the same amount of boost even though you go from 8.7 to ~10:1 CR. That is one great benefit of ethanol.

Oh, and running 12.5:1 CR is almost standard on the Swedish forums when it comes to converting NA B230īs to ethanol fuel.

SteveMD
03-27-2007, 03:27 PM
Is E85 clean-burning enough for me to dump my catalytic converter on my 'race' 240? I have to keep it road-legal and we do have emissions tests every 2 years or so. They don't look under the car though.

frpe82
03-27-2007, 05:07 PM
Is E85 clean-burning enough for me to dump my catalytic converter on my 'race' 240? I have to keep it road-legal and we do have emissions tests every 2 years or so. They don't look under the car though.
Yes it is. I think you will be alright at the test without a cat.

I actually had to dilute the E85 in my tank with some gasoline to get the wideband at the testing station to show some normal levels. Haha... The values were so low that they thought something was broken. It was with a very new race-cat on the other hand, but still.

jeff440sc
04-08-2007, 11:50 PM
Yes it is. I think you will be alright at the test without a cat.

I actually had to dilute the E85 in my tank with some gasoline to get the wideband at the testing station to show some normal levels. Haha... The values were so low that they thought something was broken. It was with a very new race-cat on the other hand, but still.

You guys are switching to bigger injectors but no one has addressed mass air meters, Mass air meters are calibraited to injector flow rates . If you switch to bigger injectors than mass air meters should be calibraited to the right size injector with the proper voltage scale for the type of fuel being burned in order for Air fuel raitios to be right. Or does everyone here have speed density cars ?

frpe82
04-09-2007, 07:45 AM
You guys are switching to bigger injectors but no one has addressed mass air meters, Mass air meters are calibraited to injector flow rates . If you switch to bigger injectors than mass air meters should be calibraited to the right size injector with the proper voltage scale for the type of fuel being burned in order for Air fuel raitios to be right. Or does everyone here have speed density cars ?
When switching to E85, the AMM will still be correctly calibrated since E85 requires larger injectors.

Stock AMM + gasoline = 31lb/hr injectors.

Stock AMM + E85 = 44lb/hr injectors.

m4ff3w
04-15-2007, 02:59 PM
How is your fuel economy compared to regular gasoline?

frpe82
04-15-2007, 06:12 PM
How is your fuel economy compared to regular gasoline?
This is what I wrote in the first post, and it is still true even though I have done a lot of mods:

E85 has a higher density than gasoline. The change in AFR from 14.7 (lambda=1 for gasoline) to 9.765 (lambda=1 for E85) is 50.5%. But the resulting flow needed is only 42% greater.

Explanations to this: E85 will need a fuel flow that is 42% greater than the flow needed for gasoline. However, it will not use 42% more fuel since it will actually be more efficient. Generally, the engine will consume ~30% more fuel.

...

My car usually use 12.5L (average) of gasoline per 100km of driving (mixed, pretty normal driving). E85 is supposed to use up 30% more fuel, so my consumption should be 16.25L of E85 per 100km of normal driving.

I have driven the car a lot on E85, and I am going through 65L of E85 in 400km. WOW! That is exactly 16.25L per 100km, just like calculated.

swiftjustice44
04-18-2007, 11:34 AM
It's an old post, but a good one. I'd like to add that I've purchased three of the Holley HLY-512-503-5 from summit and all three regulators had diaphrams that failed! I don't know if they're a bad batch or just old...but at a hundred bucks a pop...I'd look elsewhere. All three failed long before max. fuel pressure was realized.

SteveMD
04-23-2007, 03:43 PM
It's an old post, but a good one. I'd like to add that I've purchased three of the Holley HLY-512-503-5 from summit and all three regulators had diaphrams that failed! I don't know if they're a bad batch or just old...but at a hundred bucks a pop...I'd look elsewhere. All three failed long before max. fuel pressure was realized.

I was about to get one so that is good news, however bad. Thanks for the warning.

SteveMD
04-23-2007, 03:46 PM
Fred,

How does using E85 affect N/A performance camshaft selection? I am looking at KGT cams and I will be running 12:1 or more CR in a car that will see mostly autocross use. I am also willing to gear it down from the stock 3.31 rear to 3.73. (240 series)

Thanks, steve

frpe82
04-23-2007, 06:17 PM
Fred,

How does using E85 affect N/A performance camshaft selection? I am looking at KGT cams and I will be running 12:1 or more CR in a car that will see mostly autocross use. I am also willing to gear it down from the stock 3.31 rear to 3.73. (240 series)

Thanks, steve
In an NA car you can run a very high CR. What people usually prefer when running E85 is 12:1-12.5:1 actually.

With that kind of CR you can run a very wild cam if you want to.

apfelschorle
04-25-2007, 03:48 PM
if i run my car on about 40% e85 an 60% 95 octane fuel without converting, because converting Is not worth the effort, the only e85 station i know is about 30 km away and so i'll be there once a month or so. And i just want to know if this ratio would work and could it damage the engine?

thanks in advance

frpe82
04-25-2007, 04:53 PM
if i run my car on about 40% e85 an 60% 95 octane fuel without converting, because converting Is not worth the effort, the only e85 station i know is about 30 km away and so i'll be there once a month or so. And i just want to know if this ratio would work and could it damage the engine?

thanks in advance
It depends on the car and type of engine.

What do you have?

apfelschorle
04-25-2007, 05:11 PM
it's a 1998 peugeot 306 1.4 wooohooo :(

frpe82
04-25-2007, 05:20 PM
it's a 1998 peugeot 306 1.4 wooohooo :(
Then I am 95% sure that the mix of 40/60 will work.

It is naturally aspirated (no turbo), right?

If the Lambda-light or engine malfunction light turns on, then the blend of E85 is too high. I am most definitely sure that it will not be harmful to try it.

apfelschorle
04-25-2007, 06:12 PM
nice, i'll try it next time and yes, no turbo

thanks

JW240
05-08-2007, 06:49 AM
Another happy E85 user:

1991 240 B230F LH 2.4 (pink label 561), greentops from late turbo model 940 + resistors, stock n/a 2.5 bar fpr, timing advanced a bit with the selector-pins of EZK.
The greentops flow about 280 cc/min at 2.5 bar, the stock yellowtops flow 176 cc/min, so thats a 60% increase...
car ran rich on petrol with those injectors and shaked violently (so hard that the mechanical fan hit the shroud), but smoothed out after a few minutes. had to re-learn after every longer re-start (the next day eg). Engine had a slight knocking sound, like slapping pistons, but it went away i think.
I wired the resistors in the green-white cable at the ecu (pin 18 from LH), in parallel, works great.
With E85 in the tank it doesn't need to re-learn anymore and runs strong. i didn't check the mileage or the plugs yet, but the first impression (100 km of driving) is very good.

Fred, thanks for the article and support via msn etc!

Ruben
05-14-2007, 06:51 AM
@fredrik:
Any news concerning chips for E85?

frpe82
05-14-2007, 05:36 PM
@fredrik:
Any news concerning chips for E85?
Coming this summer...

pisco
05-14-2007, 06:32 PM
I've been researching the steps involved in converting my 164 to e85 for a while now. I've got 2 SU carbs on there and from what I've been able to find these should be able to run E85with 30% larger jets and some needle massaging. I have also found B18-B20 & B30 distributors with an ethanol timing curve. I just have not seen it put into practice. Does anyone know of any carbbed Volvos running on e85? I know It can't be as easy as just throwing in new jets but if it is...

frpe82
05-15-2007, 02:41 PM
I know It can't be as easy as just throwing in new jets but if it is...
It is that easy. Trust me.

I know of some carbed E85 Volvoīs, but I have not seen them in person. Only seen them on another forum (which crashed a while back).

It would be great if you could get a distributor with an ethanol timing curve. That will definitely help the power up a whole lot, and the milage will be conciderably better too.

L8 APEKS
05-15-2007, 06:16 PM
This sounds great at first blush, I would love to try it. Unfortunately, it's just not possible to do in southern California. The *ONLY* gas station in southern California that offers E85 is Pearson Ford in El Cajon/San Diego (about 100 miles away from me, I'm near Disneyland in Orange County). Currently, E85 is $3.11/cash or $3.18 if you use a credit/debit card per gallon.

If I'm gonna take a ~25% hit on fuel economy, that means E85 would need to cost $2.77 to equal the money-per-gallon ratio of Premium 91 (which is currently at $3.69 near my house). It would only become a benefit if it cost LESS than $2.77/gal, in terms of money-per-mile.

But, it ends up costing more than Premium 91 octane. Not to mention, E85 simply isn't available yet. So what's the point?

The only way it would be "cheaper" would be if you ran 100 octane all of the time. Here's my comparison...based on local information, today...

VP Racing Unleaded, 100 octane
$5.89/gal
20 gal tank = $117.80 per tank
Roughly 18mpg (in my 940)
Roughly 360 miles per tank
Roughly 32.7 cents per mile

E85 Ethanol
$3.18/gal (credit/debit...$.07 discount if you pay cash)
20 gal tank = $63.60 per tank
Roughly 13.5 mpg (25% reduction from gasoline)
Roughly 270 miles per tank
Roughly 23.6 cents per mile

Gasoline, 91 oct.
$3.69/gal
20 gal tank = $73.80
Roughly 18 mpg
Roughly 360 miles per tank
Roughly 20.5 cents per mile

...I'm thinking maybe in a year or two, when E85 is commonly available, it might be a viable option. But for a So Cal resident, E85 is about as practical as commuting in a Saturn EV-1 and praying for a charging station every 50 miles.

pisco
05-15-2007, 06:24 PM
[QUOTE=L8 APEKS;1223406]This sounds great at first blush, I would love to try it. Unfortunately, it's just not possible to do in southern California. The *ONLY* gas station in southern California that offers E85 is Pearson Ford in El Cajon/San Diego (about 100 miles away from me, I'm near Disneyland in Orange County). Currently, E85 is $3.11/cash or $3.18 if you use a credit/debit card per gallon.

That very fuel station is 2 blocks from me. That's it, I'm converting.

JW240
05-16-2007, 09:00 AM
my car doesn't want to start properly on E85 now... FFS. It isn't cold here, cars runs good (except for a slight piston slapping noise or something on low rpm clutch slipping?? thats since the E85 and a few 100 km driven with greentops)..

any advice on spark plugs? what color should they read?

frpe82
05-16-2007, 06:56 PM
This sounds great at first blush, I would love to try it. Unfortunately, it's just not possible to do in southern California. The *ONLY* gas station in southern California that offers E85 is Pearson Ford in El Cajon/San Diego (about 100 miles away from me, I'm near Disneyland in Orange County).
Too bad since Cali really strives to be the state with the best environmental friendly cars/equipment/etc.

We have E85 at more than 1/2 of all the gas stations around here... (sorry, I had to tease you a little...)

The only way it would be "cheaper" would be if you ran 100 octane all of the time.
E85 is 105 octane (103-104 at some times), and it cools better too so the benefits are great.

my car doesn't want to start properly on E85 now... FFS. It isn't cold here, cars runs good (except for a slight piston slapping noise or something on low rpm clutch slipping?? thats since the E85 and a few 100 km driven with greentops)..
Did that just start to happen suddenly?

any advice on spark plugs? what color should they read?
Reading spark plugs when running E85 is impossible (or near impossible). They will have almost the same color all the time. They will only shift between light brown and light brown/gray.

Since you are running E85 in an NA car, the sparkplugs to use for E85 is the stock heat range for your car. For turbo use, and when driven hard, you usually only need to swap to one step colder plugs.

L8 APEKS
05-16-2007, 07:58 PM
Has anyone touched on the fact that Ethanol is harder to burn than gasoline? I've heard it has a higher flash point. What effects would this have on performance?

ikyikthe1st
05-16-2007, 09:28 PM
Has anyone touched on the fact that Ethanol is harder to burn than gasoline? I've heard it has a higher flash point. What effects would this have on performance?

I believe Fred said it's something around 104 octane, so it's great to prevent knocking.

L8 APEKS
05-17-2007, 01:16 AM
I believe Fred said it's something around 104 octane, so it's great to prevent knocking.

Flash point has nothing to do with octane rating...E85 is actually more resistant to ignition than gasoline, so it takes more energy to make E85 burn. In other words...gas burns easier. I'm just not sure what this means from a performance standpoint.

Imagine watering-down your gas a little...that's how E85 burns. Maybe more spark energy is even more crucial with E85 to help offset this? Any ideas on this?

frpe82
05-17-2007, 05:56 PM
Flash point has nothing to do with octane rating...E85 is actually more resistant to ignition than gasoline, so it takes more energy to make E85 burn. In other words...gas burns easier. I'm just not sure what this means from a performance standpoint.

Imagine watering-down your gas a little...that's how E85 burns. Maybe more spark energy is even more crucial with E85 to help offset this? Any ideas on this?
It is only marginally harder to light off a mixture with E85/air than gas/air under compression. It is nothing I would worry about.

It is all about temperature and pressure. In the combustion chamber the conditions for combustion of E85 are much better than in free air.

A problem that in theory will be bigger than that, is the fact that E85 runs at a lower AFR, and that it should be harder to light the mixture because of that. In the real world this will never pose a problem unless your ignition system is in very bad condition.

L8 APEKS
05-17-2007, 08:38 PM
Friggin' "Caul - E - Foe - Nee - Uh" (Arnold voice). Too many republicans getting rich off dino gas so nobody wants to put an E85 pump in.

I would love to try it, but I can't buy E85 within a 100 mile radius of Orange County. :( Thanks Fred. I'm jealous you have so much green gas over there!

ikyikthe1st
05-17-2007, 10:27 PM
I guess I took 'harder to burn' just to mean octane which would have been 'harder to predetonate' ...or maybe I was just spewing words, I don't know, lol.

stoni
05-18-2007, 03:35 PM
any advice on spark plugs? what color should they read?

NGK BP6ES if you have resistor cables, else BPR6ES.

JW240
05-18-2007, 06:12 PM
NGK BP6ES if you have resistor cables, else BPR6ES.

iirc i swapped in BP6ES, i read that you had good results with them. luckily i had a slightly used set of them :-P
i'll test the cold start this morning...

smith_t240
05-23-2007, 07:16 PM
Anyone using MS with E85 blends and a fuel composition sensor? I really want to try that.

Tomslide50
05-26-2007, 04:30 PM
No. The narrow band lambda sensor doesnīt have a clue about AFR, only lambda.

The ECU will tune to lambda=1 on idle regardless of the fuel used, and lambda=1 for E85 is 9.8.

I'm sorry. I know this has been covered and I'm not trying to be difficult here(I appreciate the write up!), but I don't understand how the O2 sensor can compensate. The ecu doesn't tune for lambda, it tunes for 450mv. O2 sensors use the difference in outside air and exhaust air oxygen content and output a signal voltage based on that. Oxygen content increases with AFR. It does not spike in any way at lambda. If the amount of flow remains the same, and the fuel content increases, the O2 content will decrease. The ECU will not change it's desired reading of 450mv. Maybe I'm missing something here. I have to confess I didn't read all 6 pages. Thanks in advance for any clarification you can give me.:-P

frpe82
05-26-2007, 11:41 PM
I'm sorry. I know this has been covered and I'm not trying to be difficult here(I appreciate the write up!), but I don't understand how the O2 sensor can compensate. The ecu doesn't tune for lambda, it tunes for 450mv. O2 sensors use the difference in outside air and exhaust air oxygen content and output a signal voltage based on that. Oxygen content increases with AFR. It does not spike in any way at lambda. If the amount of flow remains the same, and the fuel content increases, the O2 content will decrease. The ECU will not change it's desired reading of 450mv. Maybe I'm missing something here. I have to confess I didn't read all 6 pages. Thanks in advance for any clarification you can give me.:-P
The swing back and forth at around 450mV is Lambda=1 regardless of fuel used. The O2-sensor doesnīt read differently just because E85 is used.

So to conclude: 450mV is Lambda=1, and 450mV is what the ECU is trying to achieve all the time at idle and cruise.

Tomslide50
05-27-2007, 01:42 PM
The assertion of a Lambda value requires not just knowledge of oxygen but also of the fuel. Otherwise it would not occur at a specific afr for a specific fuel. Oxygen sensors do not measure fuel, only oxygen. Therefore O2 sensors don't detect or output any reference to lambda. These associations are done by math. If the air/fuel ratio changes, the oxygen level changes, and the O2 sensor voltage output changes, and the ecu will tune back to that same amount of oxygen(450mv). You will be left with the same afr as with gasoline, in which case you will be too lean.

Can anyone point me in the direction of any tech info that says that narrowband O2 sensors directly read and output lambda? Such a sensor would have to ignore oxygen level readings and measure fuel to compensate for what lambda is on said fuel, if the output voltages remain the same.

frpe82
05-27-2007, 05:01 PM
The assertion of a Lambda value requires not just knowledge of oxygen but also of the fuel. Otherwise it would not occur at a specific afr for a specific fuel. Oxygen sensors do not measure fuel, only oxygen. Therefore O2 sensors don't detect or output any reference to lambda. These associations are done by math. If the air/fuel ratio changes, the oxygen level changes, and the O2 sensor voltage output changes, and the ecu will tune back to that same amount of oxygen(450mv). You will be left with the same afr as with gasoline, in which case you will be too lean.

Can anyone point me in the direction of any tech info that says that narrowband O2 sensors directly read and output lambda? Such a sensor would have to ignore oxygen level readings and measure fuel to compensate for what lambda is on said fuel, if the output voltages remain the same.
Lambda=1 for gasoline: Air/fuel ratio of 14.7:1
Lambda=1 for E85: Air/fuel ratio of 9.765:1

The O2-sensor sees the equivalence ratio and outputs the same voltage when the mixture is at Lambda=1 regardless of fuel.

Please read up on how O2-sensors work.

Tomslide50
05-27-2007, 06:25 PM
As I posted, please point me towards technical documents that say that an o2 sensor sees an "equivalence ratio", and not just oxygen content. I googled for a couple hours trying to prove myself wrong before posting. I'm not trying to clutter this thread, but please show me some technical O2 sensor documents so I can understand how. Or you could explain how an O2 sensor measures anything more than oxygen. Again, not trying to be argumentative(it's my nature), I just want a "how" instead of "O2 sensors read lambda".

JW240
05-27-2007, 06:32 PM
http://www.motorlexikon.de/

Die Spannung, die über eine ZrO2-Schicht abgegriffen wird, hängt nur von der Differenz der Sauerstoffpartialdrücke auf beiden Seiten der Schicht ab.
=
the voltage, measured over a ZrO2 layer, is only dependant of the difference of partial pressure of oxigen of both sides of the layer.

maybe that helps?
or walk in a uni-bookstore and find a book about engine management? not everything is easy to find on the net...

frpe82
05-27-2007, 06:39 PM
As I posted, please point me towards technical documents that say that an o2 sensor sees an "equivalence ratio", and not just oxygen content. I googled for a couple hours trying to prove myself wrong before posting. I'm not trying to clutter this thread, but please show me some technical O2 sensor documents so I can understand how. Or you could explain how an O2 sensor measures anything more than oxygen. Again, not trying to be argumentative(it's my nature), I just want a "how" instead of "O2 sensors read lambda".
Yes, the O2-sensor reads the oxygen content in the exhaust stream. When the fuel has a complete/correct burn, it will be at the same equivalence ratio as any other fuel. Burn gasoline at an AFR of 14.7 and it will have an equivalence ratio of 1. Burn E85 at an AFR of 9.765 and it will have an equivalence ratio of 1.

The oxygen sensor doesnīt care about the fuel used, only the oxygen content. And the oxygen content is the same in all fuels exhaust gasses at a complete burn.

Tomslide50
05-27-2007, 07:21 PM
So an engine running a stoichiometric mixture on e85, and an identical engine running stoichiometric on gasoline, will(ideally) have the same % of oxygen in the exhaust despite drasticly different air/fuel ratios?

stoni
05-28-2007, 02:40 PM
maybe this will help a little bit:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxygen_sensor
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air-fuel_ratio

Tomslide50
05-28-2007, 05:04 PM
If someone can answer my above question "yes", then it makes sense and we can move on. But if they wouldn't have the exact same O2 % in the exhaust, then the reading will not be the same at stoich for the different fuels. I have read the wikipedia links. The only places that say that O2 sensor compensate to lambda are in forums and on wikipedia(you can put whatever you want on wikipedia without proving it to be true). I have taken classes at automotive school on ecu diagnostics, 5 gas fundamentals, and so forth as well as countless hours of internet research. I know basic operation. I seem argumentative, but I really just want complete clarification supported by explanations from credible sources. The only way that that could be right is if both engines in my example would have the exact same % of oxygen in the exhaust in spite of different AFR's. So, is this the case?

frpe82
05-28-2007, 05:19 PM
If someone can answer my above question "yes", then it makes sense and we can move on. But if they wouldn't have the exact same O2 % in the exhaust, then the reading will not be the same at stoich for the different fuels. I have read the wikipedia links. The only places that say that O2 sensor compensate to lambda are in forums and on wikipedia(you can put whatever you want on wikipedia without proving it to be true). I have taken classes at automotive school on ecu diagnostics, 5 gas fundamentals, and so forth as well as countless hours of internet research. I know basic operation. I seem argumentative, but I really just want complete clarification supported by explanations from credible sources. The only way that that could be right is if both engines in my example would have the exact same % of oxygen in the exhaust in spite of different AFR's. So, is this the case?
Yes. At Lambda=1 for both gasoline and E85 the relative O2 content is the same.

xav78
06-02-2007, 04:40 AM
Yes. At Lambda=1 for both gasoline and E85 the relative O2 content is the same.

I a Xavier ,I live in Paris and and I want to convert my grand cherokee 4 litre to E85
without kit
I want to increase the tension to my MAP sensor , to increase quantity of the fuel into the injectors with a potentiometer in my dashbord , because I put E85 or fuel ?
Xavier

frpe82
06-02-2007, 08:13 AM
I a Xavier ,I live in Paris and and I want to convert my grand cherokee 4 litre to E85
without kit
I want to increase the tension to my MAP sensor , to increase quantity of the fuel into the injectors with a potentiometer in my dashbord , because I put E85 or fuel ?
Xavier
To make that possible on a naturally aspirated car with a MAP-sensor you would have to make some modifications...

The MAP-sensor will probably max out at atmospheric pressure (normal ambient pressure), or just a little bit above that. The ECU will also not be able to correct anything if you were to put a potentiometer in-line with your MAP-sensor. The only thing you would do would be to get more fuel up to a certain point, and then the MAP would max out and the air/fuel mixture would go lean.

You should get a MAP-sensor that reads around 40-45% higher (relatively) to the stock MAP-sensor. That way you can probably run the car on E85. Then you need to make a resistor setup to put in line with the MAP-sensor that you can switch on and off to be able to run on gasoline again. You need to experiment with how much resistance you need to put in line with the signal from the MAP-sensor.

I am sorry that I canīt give you a more detailed answer, but I donīt know exactly what it looks like in your car. But what I have said now is at least something to start thinking about as a basic thought.

xav79
06-02-2007, 04:25 PM
To make that possible on a naturally aspirated car with a MAP-sensor you would have to make some modifications...

The MAP-sensor will probably max out at atmospheric pressure (normal ambient pressure), or just a little bit above that. The ECU will also not be able to correct anything if you were to put a potentiometer in-line with your MAP-sensor. The only thing you would do would be to get more fuel up to a certain point, and then the MAP would max out and the air/fuel mixture would go lean.

You should get a MAP-sensor that reads around 40-45% higher (relatively) to the stock MAP-sensor. That way you can probably run the car on E85. Then you need to make a resistor setup to put in line with the MAP-sensor that you can switch on and off to be able to run on gasoline again. You need to experiment with how much resistance you need to put in line with the signal from the MAP-sensor.

I am sorry that I canīt give you a more detailed answer, but I donīt know exactly what it looks like in your car. But what I have said now is at least something to start thinking about as a basic thought.


Thank you for your email
My MAP sensor (grand cherokee 4 l) is like the MAP sensor in this web site

http://go.jeep-xj.info/HowtoMAPsensor.htm

The lenght of the injection is inversely proportional of the depression

Another ex to reduce consumption but increase the pollution

MAP adjuster

The stock MAP sensor input voltage was 5.05v. I reduced the voltage in small steps in order to shorten the injector duty cycle and correct the rich condition. I finally settled at a MAP input voltage of 4.15v. At that voltage, the air/fuel ratios at idle and under light throttle cruise conditions were 15.5-16.3:1, right at the optimum level for best gas mileage. Not surprisingly, average gas mileage improved to 20.8mpg and I'm very happy about that. This was a very cheap mod and it works beautifully.

At idle you have 1 volt and at the maximum of power of the motor you have 5 volts
so I put 1 volt more and the AFR increase for a speed done

I hope that you understand because my english is not very good
Xav 78

ACES70
07-24-2007, 01:23 PM
E85 is energy negative, it generally uses more non-renewable resources to produce than it saves. E85 has a host of other economically and energy problems as well. Look it up. Google "problems with E85" and look hard at some of the true envirosites.

JW240
07-24-2007, 01:54 PM
E85 is energy negative, it generally uses more non-renewable resources to produce than it saves. E85 has a host of other economically and energy problems as well. Look it up. Google "problems with E85" and look hard at some of the true envirosites.

booya. The octane rating is high, thats more important :-P

indeed, a lot of energy is needed to produce E85. but if it is a s bad as some sites suggest i don't know.

RS1
08-17-2007, 05:02 AM
What kind of fuel lines is needed for E85? Is rubber no go? What kind of material do I ask for?

Are the Walbros and Bosch motosport pumps ok for E85?

frpe82
08-17-2007, 09:21 PM
What kind of fuel lines is needed for E85? Is rubber no go? What kind of material do I ask for?

Are the Walbros and Bosch motosport pumps ok for E85?
Stock lines are as good as any other lines. The only lines and components that can't stand E85 are the ones that are 25-30 years or older, and those should be replaced anyway so...

Walbro and Bosch pumps work like they should on E85, so no worries there.

RS1
08-18-2007, 02:27 AM
I have heard no rubber and no bare aluminum in the system. New "rubber" fuel lines that they sell nowadays, do they have a rubber that can withstand ethanol?

frpe82
08-18-2007, 06:18 AM
I have heard no rubber and no bare aluminum in the system. New "rubber" fuel lines that they sell nowadays, do they have a rubber that can withstand ethanol?
No problems.

It is no more corrosive than gasoline.

What you are probably thinking of is Methanol. That is highly corrosive.

RS1
08-18-2007, 06:50 AM
I'm going E85 eventually. But the fuel consumption is worrying. My aim is over 400hp, and I need about 1000cc injectors for that. And two Walbro 255lhp pumps in parallel would probably be needed.

RS1
08-19-2007, 03:34 AM
Also, my car is a 1976 Volvo 242. The fuel tank is most probably from 1976 too. Hopefully it's steel inside, but could there be lined with something else not compatible with E85?

Lord Tentacle
08-20-2007, 03:13 AM
swapped injectors out for 47lb-ers last week
installed a 3" AMM

car is just loving the e85
getting 15-18mpg
paying $2 per gallon

just wish I had the 21gal gas tank for increased range...
only managing 210-230 miles per fill-up right now

thelostartof
08-20-2007, 10:54 AM
There is a GOOD reason all of the Flex fuel cars/trucks made these days that can use E85 have SS braied fuel lines to and from the tank.

i would very much recommend NOT using normal rubber on a car running E85. we used to do lots of testing with this stuff way back when and Ethanol does eat through the fuel lines much faster than normal gas does. you cut the life of the lines in 1/2 if not worse

RS1
08-20-2007, 02:45 PM
I can't use steel braided, it's not allowed by the authorities, because you can't see the state of the hose material. It's hidden by the braid.

frpe82
08-20-2007, 02:59 PM
Also, my car is a 1976 Volvo 242. The fuel tank is most probably from 1976 too. Hopefully it's steel inside, but could there be lined with something else not compatible with E85?
The only worry would be the fuel lines. It is of an age that the stock fuel lines may not take ethanol.

You should swap them anyway though if they are that old.

RS1
08-20-2007, 03:03 PM
All lines will be changed to high pressure ones. I suppose Gates are of good quality.

RS1
08-20-2007, 03:18 PM
Found a fuel hose at a local parts shop, it had NBR inner material, that's Acrylonitrile Butadiene. It said it could take alcohol among many other things.

cluster2600
11-11-2007, 01:48 AM
Hello all,

I am the owner of a Volvo 850R amd i am thinking about ethanol, but the thing is there is no E85 available in the country i live (Slovakia). My question is: Can you put Ethanol from supermarket to your tank if yes what are the things to look for on the bottle ?

regards.
Max.

frpe82
11-11-2007, 04:28 AM
Hello all,

I am the owner of a Volvo 850R amd i am thinking about ethanol, but the thing is there is no E85 available in the country i live (Slovakia). My question is: Can you put Ethanol from supermarket to your tank if yes what are the things to look for on the bottle ?

regards.
Max.
Well... It is possible in practice, yes.

You can run on E96 or E100 (as pure ethanol is usually called at the pump) and that is actually better than E85.

But...

E85 is 85% ethanol and 15% additives (cold start additives, color additives, and in many cases around 10% gasoline depending on where you buy it).

Ethanol from the supermarket is often 96-98% ethanol, around 1% water and additives (isopropyl alcohol, color additives). Please make sure that the ethanol from the supermarket doesnīt contain any cleaning detergents...

Ethanol from the supermarket doesnīt contain any additives to help your car start easier and below 10-15 degrees Celsius it will be extremely hard to start.

If you can get the ethanol from the supermarket at a very good price, then go for it.

And remember that E96/E100 has a different AFR than E85. You will need 50% bigger injectors (instead of 42% bigger injectors that E85 requires).

Mom'sRide
11-15-2007, 03:38 AM
I have a 1993 turbo 945. it has currently:
your chips, ipd cam, 15g, big IC, 46lb injectors, an adjustable FPR, guages: AFR, boost & fuel pres. and an 012 3" AMM. Boost is at about 14lbs I am currently running about 32psi on the fuel pres. at idle and it goes up to 48 at WOT. It seems rich rite now (and it doesnt dial sown anymore) compared to the stock injectors and AMM. There are 4 gas stations in the Las Vegas valley that have e85 and i really want to switch over so i am wondering what fuel PSI level you recommend for this set up when i switch. Do i need to wait till the tank is almost empty to change?
thanks,
JT

frpe82
11-15-2007, 09:18 AM
There are 4 gas stations in the Las Vegas valley that have e85 and i really want to switch over so i am wondering what fuel PSI level you recommend for this set up when i switch.
Do you mean that you want to raise the fuel pressure to get a greater injector flow for running E85, or are you asking how high the fuel pressure should be to get good economy and fuel atomisation?

To run E85 on your car you will need a little bit bigger injectors.

And a base fuel pressure of 3-3.5 bar works wonderful. There is no need to go over that.

Do i need to wait till the tank is almost empty to change?
thanks,
JT
No, you can change to E85 when you have ~25% gas left in your tank as well. The difference will not be very big between a 75/25% mix or 100% E85. The car will run virtually the same with either mixture (maybe a little bit richer with the 75/25% mix though).

Mom'sRide
11-16-2007, 02:47 AM
Do you mean that you want to raise the fuel pressure to get a greater injector flow for running E85, or are you asking how high the fuel pressure should be to get good economy and fuel atomisation? yes, i mean with this set up what would i have to do exactly to put e85 in the tank tomorrow?

To run E85 on your car you will need a little bit bigger injectors. Cant i compensate with more fuel pressure, say 4 bar?
Thanks, JT

frpe82
11-16-2007, 11:04 AM
yes, i mean with this set up what would i have to do exactly to put e85 in the tank tomorrow?
Getting the correct fuel flow is what you need.

Cant i compensate with more fuel pressure, say 4 bar?
Thanks, JT
No. At 4 bar the fuel flow will be 53lb/hr (558cc/min). With the 3" AMM you need 57-60lb/hr (600-650cc/min). Maybe even more depending on the target boost level.

speedster8
11-16-2007, 12:57 PM
What do you think is possible with a s60R, should i go to Heico (expensive) REALY like their S80@ sema this year.

Anny feedback is welcome :)

RS1
11-30-2007, 01:30 PM
How would a bare aluminium fuel rail work with E85?

4U2QUIK
11-30-2007, 04:49 PM
Most people that I have talked to say it should be anodized

RS1
12-01-2007, 12:49 PM
http://www.nmma.org/lib/docs/nmma/gr/environmental/E20_Position_Paper.doc

Problems with corrosion. Not good i a fuel system.

jimsig
01-06-2008, 10:49 PM
Fred,

I,ve been experimenting a little bit with my 89 244 (NA b230f LH2.4) using e85.

I haven't modified the car at all - just stock and in good running conditon with 175K Miles.

If I try to run straight e85 the engine runs well but I get a CEL illuminated after about half a tank - code indicates too lean (as expected). There is a pretty noticeable loss of power when I do this- but the engine runs fine. Starts in the morning were a little harder but not bad (approx. 35-40 degrees F).

I have also tried a 60/40 mix of 87 octane gasoline and e85 without any CEL or difficulty starting even on cold mornings (approx. 20 degrees F). A slight decrease in power, but not much different than normal

I am planning on swapping in some larger injectors.

I have some greentop turbo injectors but I don't have a spare resistor pak which if I understand correctly would be necessary if I use the green turbo injectors.

I also searched and found some bosch/ford red top injectors (bosch # 280150756) that I am planning on trying to use. If I understand correctly, these redtop injectors are 30lb/hr hi-resistance injectors that should be a direct replacement for my stock injectors in my NA LH 2.4 car. If so the 30 lb/hr flow should be adequate for running e85 in place of the 19 lb/hr stock injectors. Is this correct?

I am also curious, if I do swap in the 30 lb/hr injectors without any other modifications and run e85, would the LH 2.4 ecu then be capable of leaning the fuel delivery down enough to also run gasoline if I find it necessary?

Just FYI - I am interested in converting the car to e85 at this point just out of curiosity. In my area, which is the very center of the US (St. Louis Missouri) where within a days drive most of the worlds corn is grown, e85 is not a good economical choice - at least at this point in time. Today, unleaded gasoline (87 octane) in my neighborhood was $2.99/gal and e85 was $2.49. In my experimental use of e85 without any modifications to the car, my fuel mileage was nearly 30% lower with e85 than gasoline. So it costs more to run e85 - at least today - nonetheless - I'd like to convert this car more or less just to get started. Then, if the economics of the e85 improve, I'll probably convert my 780 turbo for the potential performance gains too!

JW240
01-07-2008, 06:48 AM
Fred,

I,ve been experimenting a little bit with my 89 244 (NA b230f LH2.4) using e85.

I haven't modified the car at all - just stock and in good running conditon with 175K Miles.

If I try to run straight e85 the engine runs well but I get a CEL illuminated after about half a tank - code indicates too lean (as expected). There is a pretty noticeable loss of power when I do this- but the engine runs fine. Starts in the morning were a little harder but not bad (approx. 35-40 degrees F).

I have also tried a 60/40 mix of 87 octane gasoline and e85 without any CEL or difficulty starting even on cold mornings (approx. 20 degrees F). A slight decrease in power, but not much different than normal

I am planning on swapping in some larger injectors.

I have some greentop turbo injectors but I don't have a spare resistor pak which if I understand correctly would be necessary if I use the green turbo injectors.

I also searched and found some bosch/ford red top injectors (bosch # 280150756) that I am planning on trying to use. If I understand correctly, these redtop injectors are 30lb/hr hi-resistance injectors that should be a direct replacement for my stock injectors in my NA LH 2.4 car. If so the 30 lb/hr flow should be adequate for running e85 in place of the 19 lb/hr stock injectors. Is this correct?

I am also curious, if I do swap in the 30 lb/hr injectors without any other modifications and run e85, would the LH 2.4 ecu then be capable of leaning the fuel delivery down enough to also run gasoline if I find it necessary?

Just FYI - I am interested in converting the car to e85 at this point just out of curiosity. In my area, which is the very center of the US (St. Louis Missouri) where within a days drive most of the worlds corn is grown, e85 is not a good economical choice - at least at this point in time. Today, unleaded gasoline (87 octane) in my neighborhood was $2.99/gal and e85 was $2.49. In my experimental use of e85 without any modifications to the car, my fuel mileage was nearly 30% lower with e85 than gasoline. So it costs more to run e85 - at least today - nonetheless - I'd like to convert this car more or less just to get started. Then, if the economics of the e85 improve, I'll probably convert my 780 turbo for the potential performance gains too!
i converted my 240 and used the greentops+the resistors for them. ran rich on petrol but great on E85, more power up top and more low end torque. mileage reduced by 20% or less.
maybe injectors in between the greentops and the stock yellowtops are good enough. White-tops from a 16V maybe?

i had a purple/pink label fuel ecu (#561) if you try to get a white label one from a later 240 you could use that one (assuming you have LH 2.4), the seem to adapt better.

also check out the selector pin mod, also from Frpe82. grounding pin 18+19 of the ignition box will yield 3 degrees of extra ignition advance. maybe more with extra pins grounded. there is a lot of info on that mod, just search the performance section.

JohnMc
01-15-2008, 11:28 AM
w00t, E85 seems to be creeping back into the StL area. I just found a station in Kirkwood with an E85 pump. I had planned to do this a while back, but discovered that the few stations that had initially sold E85 had all stopped, and the closest stations still selling it were 25+ miles away. Now it's close. I'll have to pull my MS box and add a wire to it so I can switch between the dual fuel and spark tables without a laptop. then wait for the tank to be bearly empty, swing by, fill up on E85 and flip the switch. Then fine tune for a while.

JW240
01-15-2008, 02:38 PM
w00t, E85 seems to be creeping back into the StL area. I just found a station in Kirkwood with an E85 pump. I had planned to do this a while back, but discovered that the few stations that had initially sold E85 had all stopped, and the closest stations still selling it were 25+ miles away. Now it's close. I'll have to pull my MS box and add a wire to it so I can switch between the dual fuel and spark tables without a laptop. then wait for the tank to be bearly empty, swing by, fill up on E85 and flip the switch. Then fine tune for a while.

i can tell you, the difference will be nice :oogle:
my B230F with almost no mods at all was noticeable faster than before and had better torque at low rpm. add boost and the right timing and your set :)
the extra compression from that MLS HG is even nicer with E85
btw, im interested in the current MPG and the (future) E85 MPG that you are getting

frpe82
01-15-2008, 05:51 PM
I can make an update here...

One thing that is the key to good performance (when sniffing the higher power levels) is atomisation.

I swapped from a set of brand new one-hole design Siemens/Deka injectors to a set of brand new four-hole design Siemens/Deka injectors.

I went from using 1.6-1.65L/10km down to 1.4-1.45L/10km.

So yes, the four-hole injectors can be beneficial even on an 8 valve head.

EDIT:// I do not drive like a grandma, and that is why my fuel consumption is so high.

jimsig
01-15-2008, 10:40 PM
JohnMc-

To make it even better John the Missouri governor proposed about a week ago that the state give a tax credit (.25 per gallon for the first year) for all e85 purchased. If the e85 is priced around 20% lower than regular gasoline which is where it seems to be settling for now and then the state effectively kicks in .25/gallon it starts to make economic sense too. Add to that not having to pay the extra price for premium gas of .20 to .30 per gallon and it starts to look really good!

Ive noticed several St Louis area stations starting to handle the e85 too!

Jim

jimsig
01-22-2008, 11:14 PM
Is the Bosch Green Tops 0280150558 42# injector a direct swap into a LH2.4 B230FT.

Would it work well for a e85 conversion on on otherwise stock/Stage 0 daily driver?

If not what injector would you use?

Another question- are HC and CO emissions drastically reduced/nearly eliminated by e85 use?

If so, is it necessary for the ECU to fluctuate the mix back and forth from lean to rich any longer when burning e85 and if so wouldn't a continuous slightly rich mix be the most desireable to reduce Nox emissions too - and if that's the case would a CAT be necessary any longer?

frpe82
01-23-2008, 07:18 AM
Is the Bosch Green Tops 0280150558 42# injector a direct swap into a LH2.4 B230FT.

Would it work well for a e85 conversion on on otherwise stock/Stage 0 daily driver?

If not what injector would you use?
Yes, 42lb is ok. I would use a little bit bigger than that if I were to go above 15psi of boost.

Another question- are HC and CO emissions drastically reduced/nearly eliminated by e85 use?
It is not much lower than with gasoline, but most of it is renewable and is a part of the natural cycle so you won't contribute to the greenhouse effect.

If so, is it necessary for the ECU to fluctuate the mix back and forth from lean to rich any longer when burning e85 and if so wouldn't a continuous slightly rich mix be the most desireable to reduce Nox emissions too - and if that's the case would a CAT be necessary any longer?
It still has to use the same system with fluctuating the mixture back and forth to keep the cat running, and also to be able to feel differences and adapt.

jimsig
01-23-2008, 07:31 PM
Fred,
The 42# bosch injectors I referenced are Hi-resistance as best I can tell - (internet research gives some conflicting info though!) If I use them is it necessary to make any mods to the wiring harness of my LH 2.4 turbo car? Should the resistor pak be disconnected?

I'm planning on buying a new set of four injectors for the conversion so I can get pretty much whatever is best suited - what injector would you recommend using? the car is stage 0 and I'm not planning any performance mods at least for a couple of years until I don't have a 16 y/o son driving the car (and on my insurance!)

Also looks like the some of the best deals are on 8 injector sets. Anybody interested in splitting a set of 8?

jim

frpe82
01-24-2008, 01:54 AM
Fred,
The 42# bosch injectors I referenced are Hi-resistance as best I can tell - (internet research gives some conflicting info though!) If I use them is it necessary to make any mods to the wiring harness of my LH 2.4 turbo car? Should the resistor pak be disconnected?

I'm planning on buying a new set of four injectors for the conversion so I can get pretty much whatever is best suited - what injector would you recommend using? the car is stage 0 and I'm not planning any performance mods at least for a couple of years until I don't have a 16 y/o son driving the car (and on my insurance!)

Also looks like the some of the best deals are on 8 injector sets. Anybody interested in splitting a set of 8?

jim
Yes, you should disconnect the resistor pack with the high-z injectors. You also have to connect all the wires in the connector together to close the circuit (and get power to the injectors).

This is what I recommend...

42lb/hr MSD/Holley:
http://www.racetronix.com/17113813.html

or

50lb/hr MSD/Holley:
http://www.racetronix.com/17113738FM.html

I would definitely choose the bigger ones. Better for cold starts and a little bit more fuel for acceleration enrichment. And then you also have some overhead once you want to start tuning.

If you have any questions, please ask me and i will help you.

JW240
01-24-2008, 04:39 AM
This is what I recommend...

42lb/hr MSD/Holley:
http://www.racetronix.com/17113813.html

or

50lb/hr MSD/Holley:
http://www.racetronix.com/17113738FM.html

I would definitely choose the bigger ones. Better for cold starts and a little bit more fuel for acceleration enrichment. And then you also have some overhead once you want to start tuning.

If you have any questions, please ask me and i will help you.

why not the 4-beam injectors?



another Q.

i am looking at a strong Bosch Motorsport fuel pump like we discussed last month. that pump is strong enough to work at 5 bar (4 bar FPR+boost). could running 4 bar instead of 3 be a good thing for MPG (together with the nice injectors)?

frpe82
01-24-2008, 01:28 PM
why not the 4-beam injectors?
The injectors I recommended are 6-hole injectors that has a very good spray angle (a 6-beam cone). They should be as good as the 4-hole injectors.

Though I recommend 4-hole injectors for high power output (300HP+ that is).

Oh... and the 4-hole injectors doesn't come in the size he needs either ;-)

another Q.

i am looking at a strong Bosch Motorsport fuel pump like we discussed last month. that pump is strong enough to work at 5 bar (4 bar FPR+boost). could running 4 bar instead of 3 be a good thing for MPG (together with the nice injectors)?
Yeah, it would be better for atomisation. And that in turn will be better for both power and fuel consumption (as well as the emissions and better cold start ability).

Running up to 1.3-1.4bar of boost should not really be a problem pressure-wise or flow-wise with that pump and a 4bar FPR.

Other pumps may not like that though, and the flow goes down quickly when the pressure goes up. At 1bar of boost and 4bar of base fuel pressure you are looking at more than just a total of 5bar. You are probably closer to 5.5bar or a little bit more when measured directly after the pump. Then the maximum flow will not be very good.

jimsig
01-24-2008, 10:51 PM
Yes, you should disconnect the resistor pack with the high-z injectors. You also have to connect all the wires in the connector together to close the circuit (and get power to the injectors).

This is what I recommend...

42lb/hr MSD/Holley:
http://www.racetronix.com/17113813.html

or

50lb/hr MSD/Holley:
http://www.racetronix.com/17113738FM.html

I would definitely choose the bigger ones. Better for cold starts and a little bit more fuel for acceleration enrichment. And then you also have some overhead once you want to start tuning.

If you have any questions, please ask me and i will help you.

Thanks for the help Fred! I'm going to order the 50lb/hr ones.
For the resistor pak, if I remember right there are five wires - 1 coming into the resistors and four coming back out - is that right? I think I can probably get a resistor pak at the j/y and cut the resistors off, then just connect together all five wires and plug the connector into my harness in place of the resistors. Is that right also?

JW240
01-25-2008, 10:06 AM
The injectors I recommended are 6-hole injectors that has a very good spray angle (a 6-beam cone). They should be as good as the 4-hole injectors.
Though I recommend 4-hole injectors for high power output (300HP+ that is).
Oh... and the 4-hole injectors doesn't come in the size he needs either ;-)


oh ok i only clicked on the 50 lb/hr link and they have a single cone. only the 42/l/hr ones have the 6-hole disc.


Yeah, it would be better for atomisation. And that in turn will be better for both power and fuel consumption (as well as the emissions and better cold start ability).

Running up to 1.3-1.4bar of boost should not really be a problem pressure-wise or flow-wise with that pump and a 4bar FPR.

Other pumps may not like that though, and the flow goes down quickly when the pressure goes up. At 1bar of boost and 4bar of base fuel pressure you are looking at more than just a total of 5bar. You are probably closer to 5.5bar or a little bit more when measured directly after the pump. Then the maximum flow will not be very good.

Ok great, another reason to blow the bank on a Bosch Motorsport pump and a new FPR haha.

frpe82
01-25-2008, 12:03 PM
Thanks for the help Fred! I'm going to order the 50lb/hr ones.
For the resistor pak, if I remember right there are five wires - 1 coming into the resistors and four coming back out - is that right? I think I can probably get a resistor pak at the j/y and cut the resistors off, then just connect together all five wires and plug the connector into my harness in place of the resistors. Is that right also?
Yes. That is correct.

frpe82
01-25-2008, 12:07 PM
oh ok i only clicked on the 50 lb/hr link and they have a single cone. only the 42/l/hr ones have the 6-hole disc.
Both injectors I listed are 6-hole injectors. It says "Ball/Seat Design with 6-Hole Diffuser Disc" in the product description on both, and they also have 6 holes when looking at the pictures.

Ok great, another reason to blow the bank on a Bosch Motorsport pump and a new FPR haha.
Yep :-D

cuaz64
02-02-2008, 05:49 PM
Here is an interesting link about ethanol home production and how to adapt a carbed engine, also sasy how to make a water/alcohol injection system for carbed engines

http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/ethanol_motherearth/me1.html

frpe82
02-03-2008, 09:57 AM
I would like to add to this thread again and say that my average fuel consumption now is 14L/100km because I use 4-hole injectors and ignition timing to make use of the higher octane rating of E85.

That is the equivalent of 10.75L/100km on gasoline, and that is not bad considering my car has twice the power output than stock.

stoni
02-03-2008, 11:53 AM
I would like to add to this thread again and say that my average fuel consumption now is 14L/100km because I use 4-hole injectors and ignition timing to make use of the higher octane rating of E85.

Can't wait to hold this tiny little bastards (the chips) in my hands to throw them in ....

My FT has a fuel consumption from 16.4L/100km with E85, hopefully the consumption will go back to something like 13-14L/100km. :cool::cool:

frpe82
02-03-2008, 02:29 PM
Can't wait to hold this tiny little bastards (the chips) in my hands to throw it in ....

My FT has a fuel consumption from 16.4L/100km with E85, hopefully the consumption will go back to something like 13-14L/100km. :cool::cool:
Btw.. what injector and AMM combo are you going to use now then?

stoni
02-03-2008, 03:35 PM
Btw.. what injector and AMM combo are you going to use now then?

a 012 AMM with 520cc/min injectors (470cc/min@3.7Bar). I'm still searching for 575cc/min injectors, but so long the smaller ones must work. If i can't find bigger injectors, i will go with a higher FP (4.5bar) and a walbro pump. I've found this one :cool: :

http://www.stonis-world.net/img/fpr25-50.jpg

I think this FPR looks very familiar to everyone, it's a modified Bosch regulator which fits into the original place and has a adjustment range from 2.5-6Bar. You can buy this regulator here: http://www.gema-motorsport.de/, the price is 99 Euro.

frpe82
02-04-2008, 12:54 PM
a 012 AMM with 520cc/min injectors (470cc/min@3.7Bar). I'm still searching for 575cc/min injectors, but so long the smaller ones must work. If i can't find bigger injectors, i will go with a higher FP (4.5bar) and a walbro pump.
With a 012 AMM the injector size should be 630cc/min (and you can use up to 750cc/min).

Ruben
02-04-2008, 02:58 PM
With a 012 AMM the injector size should be 630cc/min (and you can use up to 750cc/min).

You seem to be busy lately;D

frpe82
02-04-2008, 03:44 PM
You seem to be busy lately;D
Yes, I am.

nmucci
02-09-2008, 12:39 AM
Hi there! I was excited to find this discussion as there is finally a fuel station where I live that sells various ethanol blends and biofuels. I have a 2002 V70XC (B5244T engine) that I'm wondering if I can find a way to run ethanol blends on. I can get a few blends between E10 and E85 at this gas station. Can I run something like E20 or E40 with just higher flow rate injectors? I have access to a 1998 V70 T5 parts car that I can pull injectors from. From what I can tell, the T5 uses the Bosch 0280155830 injectors, and my XC uses the Bosch 0280155831 injectors. Is there any difference other than the -5830 injectors have 10-15% higher flow rate compared to the -5831 (~350cc/min vs ~315cc/min at 3 bar)? If I could get the XC running on just E40, it would be about $7 cheaper per tank when compared to filling up with the questionable quality 91 octane we have around here. When it comes to messing with fuel systems, I'm used to diesels, the ethanol land is new to me. Any help would be appreciated!

-Nick

frpe82
02-09-2008, 04:12 PM
Hi there! I was excited to find this discussion as there is finally a fuel station where I live that sells various ethanol blends and biofuels. I have a 2002 V70XC (B5244T engine) that I'm wondering if I can find a way to run ethanol blends on. I can get a few blends between E10 and E85 at this gas station. Can I run something like E20 or E40 with just higher flow rate injectors? I have access to a 1998 V70 T5 parts car that I can pull injectors from. From what I can tell, the T5 uses the Bosch 0280155830 injectors, and my XC uses the Bosch 0280155831 injectors. Is there any difference other than the -5830 injectors have 10-15% higher flow rate compared to the -5831 (~350cc/min vs ~315cc/min at 3 bar)? If I could get the XC running on just E40, it would be about $7 cheaper per tank when compared to filling up with the questionable quality 91 octane we have around here. When it comes to messing with fuel systems, I'm used to diesels, the ethanol land is new to me. Any help would be appreciated!

-Nick
Decide on a blend percentage to run. Then we can decide on which injectors that are suitable.

For a blend of up to around 25% you do not need bigger injectors unless it is chipped. It is of course different from car to car, but in general it usually works. The car is pretty smart and will adjust the mixture accordingly if it is within the adaptation limits of the ECU (and 25% is).

nmucci
02-09-2008, 07:27 PM
Decide on a blend percentage to run. Then we can decide on which injectors that are suitable.

For a blend of up to around 25% you do not need bigger injectors unless it is chipped. It is of course different from car to car, but in general it usually works. The car is pretty smart and will adjust the mixture accordingly if it is within the adaptation limits of the ECU (and 25% is).

How about E30? Its readily available, and if I need regular E10 gasoline, it shouldn't really be a problem, right? This car hasn't been chipped, I have the stock ECU. The only change made to anything related to the engine is that the stock air filter was swapped for a K&N. Also, would it be a good idea to pick up an AFR meter from ipd? Thanks!

-Nick

frpe82
02-09-2008, 08:59 PM
How about E30? Its readily available, and if I need regular E10 gasoline, it shouldn't really be a problem, right? This car hasn't been chipped, I have the stock ECU. The only change made to anything related to the engine is that the stock air filter was swapped for a K&N. Also, would it be a good idea to pick up an AFR meter from ipd? Thanks!

-Nick

Put the injectors in that can flow a little bit more. Then you can run on both gasoline and a blend of up to 1/3 of E85.

In theory you could run more than 1/3 of E85, but I do not recommend it unless you have some experience with what works, how the exhaust gas temperature and AFR's look etc.

jimsig
02-11-2008, 09:39 PM
Fred,
I have ordered the 50# injectors you suggested - just waiting to get them now.

I also have the possibility of picking up a used one of your lh2.4 chips . Would you recommend using it for e85 conversion? or do you have one specifically for e85? My car is a 90 780 with lh2.4 and also original factory installed turbo +. If I get the used chip I wont get the ezk chip. I haven't taken a look at my ecu yet to check numbers but if I understand correctly almost all lh2.4 are chippable - is that correct?

frpe82
02-13-2008, 05:07 PM
Fred,
I have ordered the 50# injectors you suggested - just waiting to get them now.

I also have the possibility of picking up a used one of your lh2.4 chips . Would you recommend using it for e85 conversion? or do you have one specifically for e85? My car is a 90 780 with lh2.4 and also original factory installed turbo +. If I get the used chip I wont get the ezk chip. I haven't taken a look at my ecu yet to check numbers but if I understand correctly almost all lh2.4 are chippable - is that correct?
Yes, all turbo LH2.4 ECU's are chippable.

No special chip for E85 (yet). When the special chip for E85 comes, it will not be for the fuel ECU but for the EZK.

You need to have the right ECU though so make sure that you have the same ECU number that the chip is made for.

And you should definitely use the EZK chip as well or you will be missing out on something, I can promise you that.

Osirix
02-26-2008, 02:08 PM
Theoretically, if I were to order four of these (42lb/hr injectors):

http://www.racetronix.com/621031.html

for my LH2.2 car, I could run E85 with no further modification?

Also, would it be logical to have a switch with the resistors attached (following the "Installing new injectors on LH2.2 on the 1st post) on one position and a direct wire on the other, which could flip between E85 and gas?

frpe82
02-26-2008, 03:14 PM
Theoretically, if I were to order four of these (42lb/hr injectors):

http://www.racetronix.com/621031.html

for my LH2.2 car, I could run E85 with no further modification?

Also, would it be logical to have a switch with the resistors attached (following the "Installing new injectors on LH2.2 on the 1st post) on one position and a direct wire on the other, which could flip between E85 and gas?
Yes to both questions.

You may have to adjust timing depending on which fuel you run though.

And these injectors would suit your car better: http://www.racetronix.com/17113813.html

The spray on the ones you mentioned are not really suitable for a head like that.

Osirix
02-26-2008, 03:23 PM
Yes to both questions.

You may have to adjust timing depending on which fuel you run though.

And these injectors would suit your car better: http://www.racetronix.com/17113813.html

The spray on the ones you mentioned are not really suitable for a head like that.

Cool, thanks! I almost forgot about the timing. The primary reason for the switch would be if I'm driving somewhere that doesn't have E85 available (there's plenty available around the city here, but once you get a ways out it's impossible to find), in which case I could refuel/retime to gas before leaving.

Thanks for the tip on the injectors, I'm not yet too familiar with spray patterns and such :doh:

NitroX5
03-22-2008, 11:09 AM
How much can i pull the timing for 105 octane? Which is the estimated value, adv. 3, 6 or 9°? Now i'm running 3° 18&19 on ground. It 's fine, i haven't got KnockSense yet... but i want to pull it for the best efficiency. What do they think? (cpr ratio 8,7 boost 16psi)

cuaz64
05-06-2008, 08:36 PM
The ethanol in any form(E10, E15, E85, E100, etc.) will destroy the fuel lines y corrode other component ONLY if is denaturalized (sorry if the word is wrong) with acetone or methyl ethyl ketone. Theorically the "modern" ethanol denatured/denaturalized with gasoline avoiding the corrosion problem. Also here (http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/ethanol_motherearth/me2.html) exist a list of ethanol-resistant materials, and the general rule is if the fuel lines (and another parts) supports a month without trouble, don't gonna be problems for a while.

frpe82
05-07-2008, 07:43 AM
The ethanol in any form(E10, E15, E85, E100, etc.) will destroy the fuel lines y corrode other component ONLY if is denaturalized (sorry if the word is wrong) with acetone or methyl ethyl ketone. Theorically the "modern" ethanol denatured/denaturalized with gasoline avoiding the corrosion problem. Also here (http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/ethanol_motherearth/me2.html) exist a list of ethanol-resistant materials, and the general rule is if the fuel lines (and another parts) supports a month without trouble, don't gonna be probles for a while.
No Volvo since the late 70's have fuel lines that will be corroded from ethanol use.

cuaz64
05-07-2008, 01:01 PM
No Volvo since the late 70's have fuel lines that will be corroded from ethanol use.

I know, I know is for the sceptics about the ethanol and always is useful information.:nod:

birdman_s80
05-09-2008, 06:31 PM
I've been running my 2000 S80 T6 with a "Full Flex" Digital piggy back converter for about a year now and am having good luck with it.

If I baby the car I get about 20mpg but and when I hit it I really notice the extra boost.

I've done no other mods to my car just plunged in the unit and filled er up..

I can run either gas or E85 or any mixture of the two and the car still performs well with no check engine light.:nod:

frpe82
05-10-2008, 08:15 PM
Yes, that can be done if the car is bone stock and if the extra overhead is present in terms of fuel flow.

Then it works great.

Einar
05-18-2008, 01:37 PM
Hi Fredrik, I have a Mercedes Benz with KE-jetronic(CIS-E) fuel injection.
I want to test out E85 on this, my biggest problem is to get the E85, nearest gas station with this is 2 hours from here.
But my plans is to adjust the fuel pressure up a bit(yes I have an adjustable FPR originally on my car), and adjust the rest on the mixture adjustment screw, so I can get it to run ok on E85, then the lambda-sensor will adjust the mixture correctely on idle, but a bit lean on higher loads, wich will suit me well since I`m not going for it for the power, but curiosity and economy(the fuel price for 95 octane RON is now 13,47 NOK here).
I have now disconnected the EHA(Electro-Hydraulic-Actuator, Wich controls the control pressure) and adjusted the fuel mixture leaner, 1,120 Lambda to get the consumption down, it works but I have harder coldstarts and lost the fuel-cut(the car starts easy but stops again because of the cold start injector).

If i did this adjustment(the pressure to get bettere atomizing and not adjust the mixture adjustment to much), do you think it would work OK, I want the EHA to be connected.

Another problem is the ignition, its adjustable with a knob with inbuilt resistors, but its no more possibilities to advance it more there.
It have a CPS(Crankshaft Position Sensor) like B230F(T) with LH 2.4, so I cant just turn the Distrubitor, only thing I can see is to move the CPS(could try 10 degres on the crankshaft), but this would require machining.
You dont know a way to fool the ignition module to give signal 10* earlier, only way I can se is moving the CPS or use an older ignition system with sensor`s in the distrubitor.

BTW the CPS hav only one signal per revolution.


Do you think the fuel distrubitor(Bensinmengdefordeleren/mängdmätaren) will bear this, since it is KE-jetronic I don`t have the control pressure regulator.


I hope you can come with any opinions and tips about this, if I`m wrong or anything.

If anyone is interested the car is a `90 Mercedes Benz 230 E

frpe82
05-18-2008, 03:40 PM
I don't really know anything about that system, but if you can get the fuel pressure high enough to supply a sufficient amount of fuel it will probably work ok.

I am sorry that I can't help you with the ignition.

Einar
05-19-2008, 01:03 PM
I did`nt think You could either, but does`nt hurt to ask, this is actually the best info I could find about E85-convertion on the internet.

frpe82
05-19-2008, 01:31 PM
Thanks.

Yeah, it is straight on and tells you in practice what is needed. Why make it more complicated.

Snorko
06-02-2008, 07:20 PM
I have a question regarding the use of high inpedance injectors from a S60R on a Motronic -012 system (B23ET with integrated resistors).
Is it possible to just swap the ECU with a -022 B230ET box that has a separate resistor pack or are the output/input connectors differently configured.

frpe82
06-03-2008, 04:57 AM
I have a question regarding the use of high inpedance injectors from a S60R on a Motronic -012 system (B23ET with integrated resistors).
Is it possible to just swap the ECU with a -022 B230ET box that has a separate resistor pack or are the output/input connectors differently configured.
If the connectors look the same and fit the same, then it should work.

The 022 and 026 are the successors of the 012 and should work as a replacement for the 012.

Ruben
06-03-2008, 08:01 AM
Fredrik do you know if it is possible to get a 360 B200E/F with Ljet to run E85?

frpe82
06-03-2008, 10:07 AM
Fredrik do you know if it is possible to get a 360 B200E/F with Ljet to run E85?
LJet... is that the system with Lambda feedback?

What kind of injectors does it use?

Ruben
06-03-2008, 10:46 AM
ATM not sure if it has lambda feedback (don't think it does). IIRC the injectors are similar to B230F (yellowtops). I know it's quite a static system.
Can tell you more next week when I'm hopefully buying another car.

frpe82
06-03-2008, 11:03 AM
ATM not sure if it has lambda feedback (don't think it does). IIRC the injectors are similar to B230F (yellowtops). I know it's quite a static system.
Can tell you more next week when I'm hopefully buying another car.
OK. If it is using the same style injectors, then just get 45% bigger injectors for it and be happy.

davidmacq
06-03-2008, 04:32 PM
What would you say might be safe max blend of e85 on your chips with stock injectors. Say you have an AFPR. 1 bar extra fuel pressure would be 30 percent increase over stock 42-46psi? Ok, if you run enough boost you might go lean and max out the injectors, but otherwise, how much increase in fuel pressure and safe to go pure e85?

lh2.4 on 15g 14psi boost or so, V cam fredchips

Ruben
06-03-2008, 05:18 PM
I used +- 300cc injectors with a 4 bar fpr and they where hardly flowing enough for a 160 HP B234F/G.

JW240
06-03-2008, 05:35 PM
I used +- 300cc injectors with a 4 bar fpr and they where hardly flowing enough for a 160 HP B234F/G.

the flow is theoretically enough but the computer couldn't/wouldn't adapt far enough to the "rich" side. Even the yellowtops from a B230F would give enough E85 for 120 hp or so, but the computer wont open them long enough since it cant adapt that far (with the boxes that i tested, not that much).
If you could change the chip then you could keep the stock injectors, but then there wouldnt be any room for more power, whats the fun in that? :-P
I thought it was fine with the 4 bar fpr?

E85 and stock sized injectors, i dunno, my 240 ran a bit lean at wot with E85 blended with petrol (maybe 20-30% E85) but i think that was because of the wot switch thats still connected (to a turbo box... not good).

I recall that Tiebird had a very nice flexifuel setup, within a few miles of driving the afrs were spot on on both E85 and gasoline.

Invest in a wideband, something like a JAW (http://www.14point7.com)is cheap and works perfectly in my car. display, sensor, controller and connector can be had for 150$.

We are thinking of a flextek kit for our 850 T5. anyone got experience with those kits? seems like the injectors aren't big enough to support 225 hp on E85 (they seem to run out of steam at 300 hp with petrol afaik). What is a good option? the car has to run on gasoline as well...
flextek+slightly bigger injectors? or just bigger injectors? i have some 630 cc/min ones here (8 of them )

frpe82
06-03-2008, 06:48 PM
What would you say might be safe max blend of e85 on your chips with stock injectors. Say you have an AFPR. 1 bar extra fuel pressure would be 30 percent increase over stock 42-46psi? Ok, if you run enough boost you might go lean and max out the injectors, but otherwise, how much increase in fuel pressure and safe to go pure e85?

lh2.4 on 15g 14psi boost or so, V cam fredchips
On the stock injectors with the setup you mention, no blend of E85. The injectors will be right around the limit with that setup.

The fuel pressure and fuel flow does not work in a linear fashion. If you raise the fuel pressure by 1 bar, then the fuel flow would go up 15%. Then you could use a blend of 25% E85 or so.

But... if you have 4 bar of fuel pressure, the fuel pump will see at least 5 bar of resistance when you are boosting 1 bar since the FPR will follow the boost pressure. That is not good for your fuel pump, and it will probably be enough pressure for the fuel pump not to have the strength of flowing as much as you need it to.

Bigger injectors is what you should use.

frpe82
06-03-2008, 06:53 PM
the flow is theoretically enough but the computer couldn't/wouldn't adapt far enough to the "rich" side. Even the yellowtops from a B230F would give enough E85 for 120 hp or so, but the computer wont open them long enough since it cant adapt that far (with the boxes that i tested, not that much).
If you could change the chip then you could keep the stock injectors, but then there wouldnt be any room for more power, whats the fun in that? :-P
I thought it was fine with the 4 bar fpr?

E85 and stock sized injectors, i dunno, my 240 ran a bit lean at wot with E85 blended with petrol (maybe 20-30% E85) but i think that was because of the wot switch thats still connected (to a turbo box... not good).

I recall that Tiebird had a very nice flexifuel setup, within a few miles of driving the afrs were spot on on both E85 and gasoline.

Invest in a wideband, something like a JAW (http://www.14point7.com)is cheap and works perfectly in my car. display, sensor, controller and connector can be had for 150$.

We are thinking of a flextek kit for our 850 T5. anyone got experience with those kits? seems like the injectors aren't big enough to support 225 hp on E85 (they seem to run out of steam at 300 hp with petrol afaik). What is a good option? the car has to run on gasoline as well...
flextek+slightly bigger injectors? or just bigger injectors? i have some 630 cc/min ones here (8 of them )
The 850 T5 will not be able to use a kit like that. The injectors are too small for that setup and they do not have the needed overhead flow. The injectors will only be able to support around 220-225HP on E85 when they are maxed out.

Also... if using such a kit, the car will not have enough overhead for acceleration enrichment.

For normal driving it is fine, but going WOT at high rpm's is very risky.

JW240
06-04-2008, 01:00 PM
The 850 T5 will not be able to use a kit like that. The injectors are too small for that setup and they do not have the needed overhead flow. The injectors will only be able to support around 220-225HP on E85 when they are maxed out.

Also... if using such a kit, the car will not have enough overhead for acceleration enrichment.

For normal driving it is fine, but going WOT at high rpm's is very risky.

yeah that was what i thought as well.
What is a good solution then? bigger injectors are of course the ticket but the car needs to run on gasoline as well... How good is Motronic 4.4 (or was it 4.3?, its a late 1996 model, you've seen the car) in adapting.
Time for another JAW and a simple injector swap and then we'll see what happens :oogle: ;-)

edit: i guess the engine would run fine with big injectors on gasoline if it stays in closed loop..? 99% of the time this car is driven very slowly so that could work too :-P

frpe82
06-04-2008, 07:25 PM
yeah that was what i thought as well.
What is a good solution then? bigger injectors are of course the ticket but the car needs to run on gasoline as well... How good is Motronic 4.4 (or was it 4.3?, its a late 1996 model, you've seen the car) in adapting.
Time for another JAW and a simple injector swap and then we'll see what happens :oogle: ;-)

edit: i guess the engine would run fine with big injectors on gasoline if it stays in closed loop..? 99% of the time this car is driven very slowly so that could work too :-P
Going to a size larger injectors would probably help, yes. Like 50-75 cc's more. Then you could use a "box".

I have a box like that ready (well, unlimited supply of those really since I do convert a lot of cars1). I could bring one to Holland. This in not the crappy kind like FlexTek or similar, but one that actually does real calculations, and you can set the enrichment and cold start help etc.

jakedachel
06-04-2008, 11:13 PM
i think i read all the posts in here carefully enough, so i'm sorry if my question was already answered... can an ethanol conversion be done to an 84 240? i'd be most interested in just swapping out the injectors. if this is possible, what injectors would be good ones to pop in there?

thanks a lot -Jake

frpe82
06-04-2008, 11:17 PM
i think i read all the posts in here carefully enough, so i'm sorry if my question was already answered... can an ethanol conversion be done to an 84 240? i'd be most interested in just swapping out the injectors. if this is possible, what injectors would be good ones to pop in there?

thanks a lot -Jake
No problems.

Is it k-jet or LH? I can't remember what the 240 used that year.

jakedachel
06-05-2008, 09:23 AM
AFAIK it's LH but i'm not 100%... But from what i've gathered scouring various webpages, wikis, and massage boards it's LH. I'm new to these cars though haha.

Thanks -jake

frpe82
06-05-2008, 10:13 AM
AFAIK it's LH but i'm not 100%... But from what i've gathered scouring various webpages, wikis, and massage boards it's LH. I'm new to these cars though haha.

Thanks -jake
Someone else have to chime in on this.

If it has LH, then what are the stock size of the injectors in that car?

JW240
06-05-2008, 05:10 PM
I'm back in the E85 game. Filled up the 240 with E85 and fitted my 630 cc/min injectors. First startup it ran really rough and wouldn't idle leaner than .72 AFR :omg:
To compensate i installed a 1000-ish Ohm resistor in the MAF line and it idled better and took it for a ride. When cruising the AFRs were nice around .93-.99 and idle .83. After some driving the idle AFR went to .95-ish as well and cruising went to .95-1, just like on gasoline. WOT is .88-.85 up to 4500 rpm then it starts to taper to .82 and even up to .77 near redline.
Runs smooooth, better torque and faster than before on gasoline.. :rockon:
Setup: 962 LH box with fredchips, 219 ezk goldbox, summit MSD, JAW wideband with NBO2 output feeding LH, 630 cc/min injectors, 1000-ish Ohm resistor and pin 18+19 of the EZK grounded for extra advance.
I think a lil bit extra resistance could be used in the MAF line, maybe 1200-1300 ohm.

Going to a size larger injectors would probably help, yes. Like 50-75 cc's more. Then you could use a "box".

I have a box like that ready (well, unlimited supply of those really since I do convert a lot of cars1). I could bring one to Holland. This in not the crappy kind like FlexTek or similar, but one that actually does real calculations, and you can set the enrichment and cold start help etc.

ok sounds good. lets discuss that further on MSN or something.

jakedachel
06-10-2008, 10:06 PM
Someone else have to chime in on this.

If it has LH, then what are the stock size of the injectors in that car?


okay so i did a little more digging and i found out that it IS in fact LH and the stock injectors are 35.5 psi 167cm3/min ....here's where i got that from http://www.k-jet.org/files/greenbooks/TP30427-1_lh-jet_v2_b23f.pdf so what size injectors would i need to get/where would i get those from?

Thanks -Jake

frpe82
06-11-2008, 12:19 PM
okay so i did a little more digging and i found out that it IS in fact LH and the stock injectors are 35.5 psi 167cm3/min ....here's where i got that from http://www.k-jet.org/files/greenbooks/TP30427-1_lh-jet_v2_b23f.pdf so what size injectors would i need to get/where would i get those from?

Thanks -Jake
Then the injector size should be 242cc/min. So try to get something around that value. A little higher than 242cc/min is ok (and actually preferrable depending on the application), but you don't really want to go under 235cc/min or else you will probably start to loose power and get troubles with starting and cold weather.

Also remember that most injector flow rates are listed at 3 bar. That means that you want a set of injectors that flow 268cc/min (25.5lbs/hr) or a little bit more at 3 bar.

Anatoli
06-18-2008, 04:36 PM
Thanks for very informative thread.
So i had enough courage to try and run E85 in my 944T.
I went the "cheappo" way by adding bigger injectors.
Initially I had greentops Bosch "357" and I put in Bosch "402" from 3.8L Ford.
If i find a second pair of Bosch "400" from 5.0L CFI Ford I'll definitely put those in, but no luck at the JY as of today. Everything works fine so far (on my second fill up). So, many thanks to you, Frederik.

I have a question though. Before i attempted the injector swap i read about flow rates and different sources list different numbers. I was wondering if i'm within +30% or +42% with respect to the original ones.
Just need some kind of reassurance, I suppose.

thanks again

frpe82
06-19-2008, 02:47 AM
Thanks for very informative thread.
So i had enough courage to try and run E85 in my 944T.
I went the "cheappo" way by adding bigger injectors.
Initially I had greentops Bosch "357" and I put in Bosch "402" from 3.8L Ford.
If i find a second pair of Bosch "400" from 5.0L CFI Ford I'll definitely put those in, but no luck at the JY as of today. Everything works fine so far (on my second fill up). So, many thanks to you, Frederik.

I have a question though. Before i attempted the injector swap i read about flow rates and different sources list different numbers. I was wondering if i'm within +30% or +42% with respect to the original ones.
Just need some kind of reassurance, I suppose.

thanks again
The corrrect number is 42%.

30% is the minimum size increase you can get away with, and that is often recommended for low power cars or NA cars so that they can fill up with both petrol and E85 without worrying about the lambda light showing. I do not really recommend it though since even the NA cars and the stock turbo cars must be able to give enough enrichment on quick throttle changes etc.

The flow of the 402 injectors are 37lb/hr. That is just 15% bigger than stock and I do not recommend that you run those for very long.

The 400 injectors are 46lb/hr though, and that is 43% bigger than stock. those are the injectors I recommend in this case.

fryea
06-19-2008, 01:30 PM
I know that most guys focus on turbos around this neck of the woods but....

what is the highest static CR someone has been able to get away with on E85? (and what kind of camshaft for the DCR)? This would be really helpful, as I am planning a high SCR NA redblock. I read a paper that the EPA produced in like 2002 where they were able to run a diesel passat engine on E85 by swapping in different injectors and replacing the glow plugs with spark plugs. IIRC the SCR on those engines is above 18:1

frpe82
06-19-2008, 01:34 PM
I know that most guys focus on turbos around this neck of the woods but....

what is the highest static CR someone has been able to get away with on E85? (and what kind of camshaft for the DCR)? This would be really helpful, as I am planning a high SCR NA redblock. I read a paper that the EPA produced in like 2002 where they were able to run a diesel passat engine on E85 by swapping in different injectors and replacing the glow plugs with spark plugs. IIRC the SCR on those engines is above 18:1
That is not impossible, but...

The shape of the head and the top of the piston has to be good or else it will not work.

I do not think you can actually make a 8v E85 car with 18-20:1 CR. 12-14 (maybe 15) is possible without any trouble though.

The 16v may be better suited for high CR.

And I think you need a cam that brigns down the DCR a bit since it would probably diesel at low rpm's.

JW240
06-19-2008, 01:40 PM
And I think you need a cam that brigns down the DCR a bit since it would probably diesel at low rpm's.

ready for Homogeneous Charge Compression Ignition? :-P
its the shiz, seems to work...

Obormot
06-21-2008, 11:06 AM
Hello!

how can i count extra flow for:
E70 (70% of ethanol, 30% of gas)
E100 (100% ethanol)

Thank you!

frpe82
06-21-2008, 01:17 PM
Hello!

how can i count extra flow for:
E70 (70% of ethanol, 30% of gas)
E100 (100% ethanol)

Thank you!
OK. I'll try to put this in more common term for the ones that are not mathematical engineers like myself so that everyone can understand them and make use of it when applied to their car. I will use more common terms that will not seem cryptic.

Since the density of ethanol and gasoline is not the same (750kg/m3 for gasoline and 790kg/m3 for ethanol), the flow numbers will be off by a few percent when calculated with this easy formula that exludes the density. But it works fine for the sake of simplicity.

The volume of the resulting mix of fuels will not be the same either. If blending 1000cc of ethanol with 1000cc of gasoline you do not get 2000cc of fuel.

Then the viscosity is not the same either so an injector that has a specified flow for gasoline will not have the same flow for ethanol.

In the end the difference from the simple calculation compared to reality is around 2%.

To calculate the extra flow for any blend of ethanol and petrol:

Petrol, Lambda 1 = 14.7 AFR

Ethanol (E85), Lambda 1 = 9.765 AFR

Ethanol (E100), Lambda 1 = 9.0078 AFR


F1 = Gasoline AFR
F2 = Ethanol AFR
C1 = Gasoline content in %
C2 = Ethanol content in %


(F1*10000/((F2*C2)+(F1*C1)))-100

= The percentual increase in injector size


But usually you want to use injectors that have a little bit higher flow. This is because you should be able to use the cold start and acceleration enrichment in relation to the equivalence ratio in my table.

Let's take a look at it again.

Fuel ........................ AFRst ........ FARst ....... Equivalence Ratio ... Lambda
Gas stoich ................ 14.7 .......... 0.068 ................ 1 ................... 1
Gas max power rich .... 12.5 .......... 0.08 ................. 1.176 .............. 0.8503
Gas max power lean .... 13.23 ........ 0.0755 .............. 1.111 ............. 0.900
E85 stoich .................. 9.765 ....... 0.10235 ............ 1 ................... 1
E85 max power rich ...... 6.975 ....... 0.1434 .............. 1.40 ............... 0.7143
E85 max power lean ..... 8.4687 ...... 0.118 ............... 1.153 .............. 0.8673
E100 stoich ................ 9.0078 ...... 0.111 ............... 1 .................... 1
E100 max power rich .... 6.429 ........ 0.155 .............. 1.40 ................ 0.714
E100 max power lean .... 7.8 .... ...... 0.128 .............. 1.15 ................ 0.870

What this means is this:

Look at the blue numbers on both Gasoline and ethanol. Ethanol requires more fuel flow to get into the rich region, and therefore requires more fuel (percentual increase) at cold starts and when stabbing the throttle. Not much more than gasoline, but enough to maybe give driveability problems on some engines since they want to buck a little initially when the throttle is stabbed.

Let's look at the red numbers. In practice this means that to go full rich on gasoline you will need an extra 17.6% of fuel over stoich AFR for gasoline. But on ethanol you will need an extra 40% of fuel over stoich AFR for ethanol.

When using 42% bigger injectors which is the recommendation when going from gasoline to E85, the theory doesn't really add up and you should end up with a little bit too little enrichment when accelerating since the ECU will add 11.1-17.6% extra fuel. That is not enough fuel to enrich the mixture of ethanol which requires 15-40% extra fuel for enrichment.

In reality though, you will be pretty spot on the good numbers since our ECU's always want to enrich a little bit more than neccesary.

But it is still a good idea to use 10% larger injectors than calculated to make up for those situations when the ECU can not enrich properly.

Obormot
06-24-2008, 02:16 AM
did you change the ignition timings?

Karl Buchka
06-24-2008, 07:41 AM
If blending 1000cc of ethanol with 1000cc of gasoline you do not get 2000cc of fuel.

I don't mean to nit-pick, but that statement makes absolutely no sense.