Freeze 12, Duracool and Envirosafe 12a?

[Cliff]

Are these about same products? If not which one will be the coldest for my 245. I've already change the compressor, reciever/dryer and change all the o rings but I did not change the evaporator. Also, I already pulled vacuum and so far no leak.

[boosted]

freeze 12 is synthetic r12. can replace r12 and works almost as well. duracool is for r134a, has less volume, and puts less of a load on the compressor.

unsure about envirosafe

[blarf]

No, there is no such thing as 'synthetic' R12. No, not all alternative refridgerants are created equal.

[Cliff]

I just called Envirosafe and they told me to use the Industrial 12a. They are in IL and love it in their cars and better for warmer climates like here in FL.

Anybody have Experience with Industrial 12a?

[henry_sigourney]

Make sure whatever you choose is not flammable. Some of the R12 replacement products have butane and such in them. This is bad in a crash.

[Justin922]

Just find a friend who is a mechanic and has thier section 509 epa cert and they can buy R-12. we can still get it here in GA and its best. otherwise just do the r-134a conversion and its not noticably any different if done properly. you will need to add more 134a than 12 to have it cool as well because 134a uses a slightly higher pressure. I did the conversion in my wife's 745 regina and used .4lb more 134a than it specified for 12. her vent temp is 41 deg f, thats cold enough for me!

[tjts1]

Most of these easy to use R12 replacements are some combination of dried propane and butane.
I don't see why everybody is soo worried about the flamability of hydrocarbon based AC. We drive around with 10-20 gallons of gasoline in an unsealed container all the time. I don't think 14oz of propane scattered throughout the AC system are going to bring down the house.
For example the flash point of:
gasoline = -40C
propane = 68C

[henry_sigourney]

I don't think the AC system was designed for flammable refrigerant in the context of a crash. The fuel system stops pumping when the engine stops turning.

AFAIK Freeze 12 is not flammable. Given the choice......

[fengler]

I just called Envirosafe and they told me to use the Industrial 12a. They are in IL and love it in their cars and better for warmer climates like here in FL.

Anybody have Experience with Industrial 12a?


i do, i recently filled my system with it, LOVE IT. very cold, im surprised more people dont know about this( i didnt know about it till a month ago)

[Tabor]

Duracool and Envirosafe:

They are flamable, but work better than Freeze 12. In fact, Envirosafe has a $3,000,000 insurance policy and no one has filed a claim yet.

Freeze 12: It is full of r134a which is highly toxic and can easily kill you if it leaks into the cabin in even the smallest amounts. Also, if it comes in contact with flame it turns into something even nastier (hydrofloric acid maybe, I can't remember).

Would you rather blow up with really cold AC or die from poisoning with moderately okay AC? I will take envirosafe thank you.

EDIT- And if the Envirosafe starts leaking into the cabin you will smell it because they add cent to it. The same can not be said for r134a/Freeze 12. I don't know about duracool.

[boosted]

****, i breathe in r134a all the time

[765tiME]

I was going to say...^^ ...I work in the toxic gas detection business and r134 has a fairly high exposure threshold before its deadly (like 100%), and only then because there is no oxygen left to breathe.

and you would have to contain the gas and heat it to about 1200C to generate HF (hydrogen fluoride).

The only real fear with any HFC is freeze burns (ok and environmental impact)

[peehound]

Duracool and Envirosafe:

They are flamable, but work better than Freeze 12. In fact, Envirosafe has a $3,000,000 insurance policy and no one has filed a claim yet.

Freeze 12: It is full of r134a which is highly toxic and can easily kill you if it leaks into the cabin in even the smallest amounts. Also, if it comes in contact with flame it turns into something even nastier (hydrofloric acid maybe, I can't remember).

L0AD 'O SH**T
I can't remember, too, but I'm senile.
What's your excuse?

Would you rather blow up with really cold AC or die from poisoning with moderately okay AC? I will take envirosafe thank you.

Dumm da DUM dum....DUMB


EDIT- And if the Envirosafe starts leaking into the cabin you will smell it because they add cent to it. The same can not be said for r134a/Freeze 12. I don't know about duracool.

What, exactly, DO you know about????

[blarf]

Err what? If it's EPA approved (as some of the hydrocarbon blends are), it's been tested for safety, but not for longevity in an automotive A/C system. If you're sticking with one of the EPA approved blends, I wouldn't worry about getting blown up anytime soon.

[Tabor]

yarchive.net/ac/r134a_lethal.html (http://yarchive.net/ac/r134a_lethal.html)


In August 1997, a study was done at the Armstrong laboratory, Wright
Patterson Air Force Base, Dayton, OH. The report, "Human Inhalation of
Halon 1301, HFC-134a and HFC-227ea for Collection of Pharmacokinetic
Data" was authored by A. Vinegar, R. Cook, J McCafferty, M. Caracci, and
G. Jepson.

The concentration of R-134a being used was extremely low and (then
thought) that nothing bad was going to happen. To quote from the bottom
of page 10 (page 11 if abstract prepended), "Subject #3 was the first
volunteer exposed to

HFC-134a. The exposure concentration was 4000 ppm (0.4% v/v) and was
scheduled to last for 30 minutes with a 5 minute postexposure evaluation
period as was accomplished in the Halon 1301 portion of the study.
Approximately 4.5 minutes into the exposure, the subject lost
consciousness and both pulse and blood pressure dropped to zero."

[765tiME]

I can't speak to Armstrong Labs or whatever airforce base, I reference OSHA and ACGIH...

If you Google r134a and terms like PEL (permissable exposure limit) or TLV (threshold limit value), TWA (time weighted average) and OSHA (occupational safety and health association) you'll see there is no established exposure limit (trust me they do the testing and fine heavily). If you also Google MSDS (material safety data sheet) for the stuff you'll see its a simple asphyxiant (meaning avoid high concentrations where O2 can be depleted). I've pulled a couple of MSDSs on the gas and even as late as '04 its still without an exposure limit. I'd be leary of your primary source of info regarding toxicity. It may well be an asphyxiant at .4% by volume (can't happen leaking into the atmosphere unless super air tight).

[Tabor]

www.pioneerair.com/MSDS_R134a.pdf (http://www.pioneerair.com/MSDS_R134a.pdf)

OSHA has never established an exposure limit, true. If this means anything to you, go ahead, breath it all day. However, DuPont, the f***ing inventor of the god damn chemical (and patent holder, I may stress) has established a maximum exposure limit of only 1,000ppm. That is 0.1% by volume. If you think that dumping a couple of pounds of r134a into the cabin of a sedan can't get the concentration up to 0.1% by volume, I have a very shiny bridge to sell you.

[Tabor]

****, i breathe in r134a all the time

It is causes testicular cancer.

[fengler]

hahhaha gotta love two guys arguing about refrigerant

[765tiME]

You're quoting speculation at this point. If it were proven of harming anything at all it would have an OSHA PEL and a TWA, ...again they really do all the testing. This is such BS though I will try to keep it off my balls.... Again I have been in gas detection (toxic and otherwise for nearly 20 years) so I ain't buying it.

[Tabor]

I'll buy the r134a if you'll breath it. 4000ppm for 30 min. You must supply the paramedics if you feel like being recesitated.

[Cliff]

Thanks for the reply/arguing. I'll the envirosafe 12 later after I fix/tune my car.

[dalek]

It seems EPA had a thing against Duracool 12a: http://www.epa.gov/Ozone/snap/refrigerants/hc-12a.html

[JohnLane]

Did it come with R-12? (yup)
Then put R-12 back in. It is available and works good.

[Tabor]

Did it come with R-12? (yup)
Then put R-12 back in. It is available and works good.

How do you apply this logic to the rest of the components in your car?

[740TurboPerformance]

Just coming into this, can someone fill me in?

I thought 134a is supposed to be safer than R12 which is why it replaced it? How come it sounds worse, so if it leaks into the cabin you can get nut cancer and sh**? Maybe refridgerent is just toxic in general? Difference between 134 and 134a?

I know R12 is really bad, I once breathed just a little in that was left in the system that leaked out into the air and started to immediately get a headache.

I converted my wagon over to R134 with the Volvo kit after replacing the compressor, had the system evacuated and recharged with R134, works fine.

[JohnLane]

My rallycar is not air conditioned. It has a roof vent as you will find in a Semi on the side that pops up out of the roof and supplies a blast of air to move much-o air around the cockpit.
Were it equipped with A/C and that system originally used R-12 I'd put R-12 in it.
R-12 systems work well and for a long time.
R-12 systems with R-134a and other snake oils are more troublesome then the R-12 system charged with R-12.
Were I to give the rallycar an A/C system that was designed for R-134a it would get 134a.

The manner of gasssssss we put in our A/C system sure does not make the car faster unless a failure makes for a 130 degree cockpit now does it?

Make sense?

[Stretched]

When changing to Freeze 12 or r12a do you still have to replace the parts in the system?

[L8 APEKS]

It is causes testicular cancer.

Come to think of it, my balls itch... *GASP!*

[MikeSr.]

If you bring your car in to a reputable shop for a/c service, they will check the gas in your system and if it's not R-134a or R-12, they won't touch it, because evacuating your system will contaminate their refigerants. "Industrial" refigerants contain enough hydrocarbons to be flammable and are not suitable for use in automobiles. If you can do a proper conversion to R134 and it works, why would you buy those other refrigerants, to save a nickel and buy yourself a ton of problems?

Forget that Autozone crap and use R134.
Volvo has some good conversion kits and it's not that hard to do it. Using the right orifice tube or TXV will make R134 work just as well as R-12.

[blarf]

If you bring your car in to a reputable shop for a/c service, they will check the gas in your system and if it's not R-134a or R-12, they won't touch it, because evacuating your system will contaminate their refigerants. "Industrial" refigerants contain enough hydrocarbons to be flammable and are not suitable for use in automobiles. If you can do a proper conversion to R134 and it works, why would you buy those other refrigerants, to save a nickel and buy yourself a ton of problems?

So take it to a shop that's going to handle contaminated refrigerant? The main requirement is that the shop not contaminate anything. So what do you do? Flush the machine, and use a dedicated set of hoses. Then throw the blend into a junk tank. If you were really serious, I bet you could help convince a shop to help you out by providing a disposable tank (and set of hoses). The tank, of course, could be sent of for recycling and further processing (think: proft for the shop).

[foxtrapper]

Just coming into this, can someone fill me in?

I thought 134a is supposed to be safer than R12 which is why it replaced it? How come it sounds worse, so if it leaks into the cabin you can get nut cancer and sh**?

R12 was phased out because it's an ozone depleter. R134 is less of an ozone depleter. All other certified R12 replacements are less ozone depleters as well. None of them are perfectly "environmentally safe" regardless of their marketing claims.

As for toxicity, the previous poster was grossly overstating things. Nothing is perfectly safe, and R134 is no exception. It is not regarded by any toxic material governing body as being a particularly interesting toxic or carcinogen. Oak sawdust is far more carcinogenic than R134 for example.

[JohnLane]

Any of these gasses in an enclosed space in big enough concentrations will kill you. Of course CO2 will do the same. As a rule don't feed your running engine these gasses and go and huff the exhaust......

[765tiME]

Oxygen is also toxic in great quantities and so is dihydrogen monoxide (help get it banned!) and on and on.. ad nauseum... I was merely debunking the claim that small quantities or r134a could kill you if it leaked into the car. Sorry to have drifted from the topic at hand.

[stealthfti]

AHHH! the freon wars. This one is evil incarnate; that one is green weenie heaven.

A total load of BS....better than 40 feet deep....on both sides.

Use EPA approved R12 substitutes/replacements; or convert to 134A.

Avoid breathing any of them; and SERIOUSLY avoid breathing any fumes from any of them if they have come into contact with a flame, or other combustion source.

DO NOT smoke while servicing A/Cs.

134A is not as efficient as R12 [about 20% to 25% less efficient]. That is why the evaporators on 134A equipped cars are larger. But, a R12 system, if converted correctly, and charged correctly with the right amount of 134A, can function quite adequately.

134A is not taxed as heavily....yet...as is R12. That will change, sometime.

TF

[mikep]

DO NOT smoke while servicing A/Cs.

"beware the smell of new-mown hay"

[Lord_Athlon]

I redid my car with 12, and i couldnt be happier.