Windage control items for modular engines

[Kevin Johnson]

Just a plug -- Greg Stieritz at Quick Brick Motorsports has been patiently after me to make scrapers and windage trays for the modular four, five and six cylinder engines. The designs are finally done. Here are some pics of the I5 version -- others similar.

http://www.crank-scrapers.com/Volvo-mod-I5-a.jpg

http://www.crank-scrapers.com/Volvo-mod-I5-c.jpg

http://www.crank-scrapers.com/Volvo-mod-I5-m.jpg

http://www.crank-scrapers.com/Volvo-mod-I5-g.jpg

[linuxman51]

thats pretty slick

[Chris_R]

OK, you have my interest as i am in the process of freshening a 5cyl motor... In fact I just turned it upside down and loosened the oil pan last night.

What are we looking at for prices? Or should I be talking to QBM?

[Hank Scorpio]

Im not a 100% sure this is needed. The crankshaft (as you can see) doesn't protrude below the main girdle and stays well clear of the oil level in the motor. While it would be nice to help sling any oil off the trailing edges, the modular motors ('specially FWD ones) have TERRIBLE baffling around the pickup tube.

What my concern would be is slowing oil drain back to the pan.

Looks extremely well made.. just haven't made up my mind if this is a good idea or not.

[Kevin Johnson]

Im not a 100% sure this is needed. The crankshaft (as you can see) doesn't protrude below the main girdle and stays well clear of the oil level in the motor. While it would be nice to help sling any oil off the trailing edges, the modular motors ('specially FWD ones) have TERRIBLE baffling around the pickup tube.

What my concern would be is slowing oil drain back to the pan.

Looks extremely well made.. just haven't made up my mind if this is a good idea or not.

This will actually increase the speed at which oil is returned to the sump -- exactly what you desire. The design of the modular block has some obvious heritage to the Porsche 928 and 944 blocks -- both of which have considerable windage issues despite a comparable minimal clearance over the main bearing cap sections of the bedplate. Additionally, in the 928 it is primarily "within bay" or "across bay" pumping issues while with the 944/968 it is "between bay" or "bay to bay" pumping issues. The latter would be the case with the modular blocks.

It is normal for the rotating assembly to stay well clear of the sump oil in modern engines (under static or non-accelerative steady state conditions) but they have windage clouds just the same.

As to whether it is a good idea -- just look at the OEMs. Porsche, for example, uses a vertical scraper coming off the floor of the sump in the 944 and 968 -- just like Ford did (and does) starting at least 45 years ago -- this is considered extremely well proven technology in professional automotive engineering. Reference the recent patent from GM on the website (http://www.crank-scrapers.com) recommending exactly this type of placement. You can see a pic of a comparable OEM installation of a crank scraper on the Dodge Viper V10 on the same page.

[Hank Scorpio]

Kevin I understand how scrappers work. I have used them for years and years on various motors I have built (this is what I do).

I just worry about obstructing any oil drainback in the modular motors. Atleast the FWD motors have nice deep pans, you are right about the layout in terms of RWD where they have almost no pan under the center of the motor.

I have a T5 motor right now in assembly for a customer. I'll call him and see if he wants to add this to his motor, we just finished the rotating assembly over the weekend. If were going to try one now would be the time.

Should I contact you or Greg?

[Kevin Johnson]

Kevin I understand how scrappers work. I have used them for years and years on various motors I have built (this is what I do).

I just worry about obstructing any oil drainback in the modular motors. Atleast the FWD motors have nice deep pans, you are right about the layout in terms of RWD where they have almost no pan under the center of the motor.

I have a T5 motor right now in assembly for a customer. I'll call him and see if he wants to add this to his motor, we just finished the rotating assembly over the weekend. If were going to try one now would be the time.

Should I contact you or Greg?

Hank and Chris_R, I just got done speaking with Greg and he will be happy to help you.

The scraper and tray are left open or away from the block walls so they should not inhibit drain back. In the swept path of the rotating assembly a pressure differential is set up that actively draws oil into it rather than let it drain back to the pan freely. The scraper operates on two levels -- physically stripping away clinging oil and then acting to break up this pressure differential and thereby release the entrained oil. The directional screening with its thousands of small louvers acts like iterated crank scrapers and helps to dissipate the energy of the oil that it "grabs."

In many other blocks, like the small block Chevy, the skirts of the block are so close to the rotating assembly that no drain holes through a "classic" pan rail mounted scraper are really practical. In those situations you will have some amount of oil that sits on the "shelf" that is created. That is one area that the DART casting improves on -- the skirts are moved outwards for strokers but they also improve the function of a scraper you put there since it will then allow space for drainback holes.

[Captain Bondo]

Additionally, in the 928 it is primarily "within bay" or "across bay" pumping issues while with the 944/968 it is "between bay" or "bay to bay" pumping issues. The latter would be the case with the modular blocks.


Agreed. This is also part of why we sometimes see holes machined between the girdles (ie between the top of the bearing and the bottom of the cylinder liner) when the very flat RWD pan is bolted up. Lets the gas/vapor under the piston displace more easily as the piston lowers in the bore.

Those look great.

[Kevin Johnson]

Agreed. This is also part of why we sometimes see holes machined between the girdles (ie between the top of the bearing and the bottom of the cylinder liner) when the very flat RWD pan is bolted up. Lets the gas/vapor under the piston displace more easily as the piston lowers in the bore.

Those look great.

Yes, in the case of the 928 GTS stroker engine Porsche was desperate to lessen the scouring effect on the floor of the pan by the piston displacement. This was an engine that was already hovering right on the edge -- how close to the edge? Well, Porsche briefly introduced oil squirter piston coolers but withdrew them because that incremental increase in entrained oil volume caused oiling issues. Porsche experimented with numerous fixes including raising/lowering the sump fill and different sump baffle designs.

[kildea]

i have been looking at this 960 oil pan, and this t6 oil pan, and honestly - as stupid as it may sound - i would prefer to be able to keep the t6 oil pan AND mount the motor for rwd.

it looks like the steering rack will be a problem, as will the crossmember - but the cross member can be modified.

if i give up a bit in the mounting position - i wanted to get the engine down and back if possible to keep the weight ... down and back - it looks like there is enough room to do this, particularly if i modify the firewall.

i know this is half baked, but i figured maybe?

feel free to flame away :) but definitely give opinions, please, especially ones along the lines of "the windage issues arent significantly improved in the fwd design", etc.

[Kevin Johnson]

i have been looking at this 960 oil pan, and this t6 oil pan, and honestly - as stupid as it may sound - i would prefer to be able to keep the t6 oil pan AND mount the motor for rwd.

it looks like the steering rack will be a problem, as will the crossmember - but the cross member can be modified.

if i give up a bit in the mounting position - i wanted to get the engine down and back if possible to keep the weight ... down and back - it looks like there is enough room to do this, particularly if i modify the firewall.

i know this is half baked, but i figured maybe?

feel free to flame away :) but definitely give opinions, please, especially ones along the lines of "the windage issues arent significantly improved in the fwd design", etc.

Be sure to check that the floor of the pan and the pickup opening remain parallel to the ground after accounting for any installation tilt.

[Matt Dupuis]

Right, 'cause the road's always flat and level, and you don't accelerate/brake/steer?

[Kevin Johnson]

Right, 'cause the road's always flat and level, and you don't accelerate/brake/steer?

No, the reason why is pretty straight forward. The opening of the pickup tube should be .25" to .375" from the floor of the pan in order to avoid cavitation yet to also maximize the volume of oil available to the pump before air is drawn in.

A pickup tube opening that is canted to one side has an effective opening at the highest point on that slope -- that is where air is likely to be drawn in. Similarly, the canted floor of the pan pools the oil in the furthest point away from the opening thereby creating the worst possible net effect.

This is pretty standard stuff -- you'll often hear about people blowing up their engines after swapping a FWD pan into a RWD application.

[Hank Scorpio]

No, the reason why is pretty straight forward. The opening of the pickup tube should be .25" to .375" from the floor of the pan in order to avoid cavitation yet to also maximize the volume of oil available to the pump before air is drawn in.

A pickup tube opening that is canted to one side has an effective opening at the highest point on that slope -- that is where air is likely to be drawn in. Similarly, the canted floor of the pan pools the oil in the furthest point away from the opening thereby creating the worst possible net effect.

This is pretty standard stuff -- you'll often hear about people blowing up their engines after swapping a FWD pan into a RWD application.

doesn't surprize me. The FWD pans are horribly baffled anyways.

Hard left turn and slightly low on oil = kaboom.

[kildea]

so i take it it would make the most sense to just use the rwd pan.

out of curiosity though, couldn't one just relocate the pickup to a pickup tube, scavenge from an outside reservoir that is lower than the level of the oil in the pan? then you never have the air inlet problem, and a larger volume of oil for cooling too, there must be a reason why this won't work - but please explain.
does the pump have difficulty pumping the oil efficiently if it has to move it along a longer tube or from a remote location?

sorry for the newb q's.

[Kevin Johnson]

so i take it it would make the most sense to just use the rwd pan.

out of curiosity though, couldn't one just relocate the pickup to a pickup tube, scavenge from an outside reservoir that is lower than the level of the oil in the pan? then you never have the air inlet problem, and a larger volume of oil for cooling too, there must be a reason why this won't work - but please explain.
does the pump have difficulty pumping the oil efficiently if it has to move it along a longer tube or from a remote location?

sorry for the newb q's.

There are people that have made hybrid systems with elements like this though you generally need a scavenge pump as well so that you can locate the reservoir higher -- you might otherwise run into ground clearance and location issues. You are headed in the direction of a dry sump system so why not go the full route.

[Matt Dupuis]

No, the reason why is pretty straight forward. The opening of the pickup tube should be .25" to .375" from the floor of the pan in order to avoid cavitation yet to also maximize the volume of oil available to the pump before air is drawn in.

A pickup tube opening that is canted to one side has an effective opening at the highest point on that slope -- that is where air is likely to be drawn in. Similarly, the canted floor of the pan pools the oil in the furthest point away from the opening thereby creating the worst possible net effect.

This is pretty standard stuff -- you'll often hear about people blowing up their engines after swapping a FWD pan into a RWD application.
I understand all that, but my point is that even when you're driving on a crowned road the oil will slide over to the low side, and in an FWD application that puts the pickup tube at the high side of the pan doesn't it?

A small angle rearwards (typical in an RWD installation) should help keep the pickup tube head submerged, especially under braking, shouldn't it?

[Kevin Johnson]

I understand all that, but my point is that even when you're driving on a crowned road the oil will slide over to the low side, and in an FWD application that puts the pickup tube at the high side of the pan doesn't it?

A small angle rearwards (typical in an RWD installation) should help keep the pickup tube head submerged, especially under braking, shouldn't it?

You would have to examine in detail the characteristics of a given pan. There are all sorts of things you can try to get away with and in fact might.

Here is an example of an OEM making a small adjustment to an oil pickup. Wonder why? ;-)

In the Miata 1.8 versus the earlier 1.6 the opening of the pickup tube is moved further down inside the screening bulb.* Attention to details... You can bet they did not do this on a whim.

*The 1.8 is a stretched bore center version of the 1.6 with otherwise identical sumps, windage trays (neglecting the later MBSP) and oil pickups.

http://www.crank-scrapers.com/bp_and_bf_pickup_designs.jpg

[Kevin Johnson]

Not much action with the modular engine crowd re scrapers and windage control -- does it help that the SCCA 2006 Prod G National Champ was running one of our scrapers? :)