most recent news with the M.S. build

[sethfc]

ok, shane and i closed shopped for tonight. made a lot of progress.
here are some things that i need help with:

1. i tried calibrating the TPS. the 'closed' position number was 217. the WOT number was around 280. Did i install the TPS wrong? o_0 i see absolutely no other way to install it... so...

2. Calibrating the wideband. Mike (740atl) showed me a screenshot, but what i see makes no sense. maybe an explaination would help

3. On megatune, my AFR is between 2-4 when i hold the car at ~2K rpms. Is that due to the wideband not being calibrated? or do i need to fix my fuel table...

thanks to all those who have been helping

-seth

[Slobodan]

Sorry I haven't been physically there to help in recent months. :(

****in' Work comes first though.

Congratulations on getting the BEAST running! I can't wait to take it for a spin! :)

[sethfc]

i forgot to mention

with the TPS showing 217 as closed, and 255 (or so) as WOT, the car would not start with Mike's MSQ

seth

[BB-Q]

Are you using a Bosch 001 TPS? Cos you shouldn't have readings like that and those TPS's (of the 850,etc.) are known for going funky. You can always check the resistances from fully closed to fully open with a multimeter.

Your wideband should be earthed in the place as your MS, as you can get all kinds of calibration problems otherwise- ask me how I know! :owned:

Did you select the wideband option in Megatune? Otherwise it'll keep defaulting to narrowband. Also, if you've done that and ensured that the analogue output reads 0v @10:1 and 5v@20:1 (check the Mega manual for that one in case my numbers are wrong), make sure it's also set to display as AFR and not lambda.

[sethfc]

the TPS is a random ass nissan TPS.... from an 89 i believe

[The Aspirator]

*edit* Doh, just found your other thread that answers alot of my questions, ohh well.

The TPS shouldn't really be giving you any problems, as it only really serves two purposes. When it's fully open during cranking it goes into "flood clear mode" where I think it squirts no fuel, and the other is acceleration enrichment. So as long as your throttle plate is fully closed and opens fully, then you do the proper TPS calcs, it should work. Does your TPS gauge swing from 0-100%?

Something is messed up with your wideband, or most likely with your settings. Which wideband? You will need to go into one of the .ini files to change things to wideband. It sounds like you're viewing the actual voltage of the sensor (0-5v) and no the actual AFR (10-20).

When using somebody else's MSQ you've got to be sure that you have the same injectors as them, or else you've gotta change your req_fuel number. So tell us your injectors, what your req_fuel is, and if you're using "Alternating" or "Simultaneous" and how many squirts per cycle.

Also are you just running MS or MSnS? Got spark?

John

[sethfc @ schoo]

haha... thanks john

so you think megatune is showing the volts? i cant tell... all i know is the guage is in red and reads between 2-4 when i'm steppin on the gas.

i have an LC1

my injectors are the CFI 42lb injectors... i'm pretty sure mike (740atl) has CFIs... maybe not the 42s but i'll let him answer

and the thing with the TPS is the car didnt start when i set it.... it was bitchin/moaning about how at closed it was 217. doug told me that shouldnt matter... and i realize that... but it just didnt wanna start when i had the TPS plugged in

-seth

[Tabor]

and the thing with the TPS is the car didnt start when i set it.... it was bitchin/moaning about how at closed it was 217. doug told me that shouldnt matter... and i realize that... but it just didnt wanna start when i had the TPS plugged in

Probably because it was activating flood clear mode.

[The Aspirator]

Unplug the TPS and go from there, you don't need it for now. Also watch the PulseWidth gauge while cranking to make sure that the injectors are getting a signal to start squirting!

[sethfc]

well the car starts... i dont know if you realize that. lol
car starting is not an issue
i'm actually tryin to tune things up. would there be a reason the injectors arent pulsing if the TPS is plugged in?
-seth

[The Aspirator]

Only if MS thinks that you're in flood clear mode, so unplugging the TPS would cure that. But if it starts, GREAT! So describe it more. How does it idle? Drive? Do you know where to look to change the wideband settings? I think it's in the Car1 folder called settings.ini or something.

[sethfc]

havent driven it
idle is not bad, i basically continually feather the throttle to keep it alive
if i rev to 2500 after about 3 minutes of feather and hold it... it can keep at 2500 for a while but then will drop. this characteristic is shared throughout the RPM range

i think its calibration i'm missing is all

[Hank Scorpio]

havent driven it
idle is not bad, i basically continually feather the throttle to keep it alive
if i rev to 2500 after about 3 minutes of feather and hold it... it can keep at 2500 for a while but then will drop. this characteristic is shared throughout the RPM range

i think its calibration i'm missing is all

Sounds like its rich to me. Get the WB working

[sethfc]

Sounds like its rich to me. Get the WB working

that would make sense... it smelled pretty damn rich.
hopefully ill have time today to calibrate

[benflynn]

wb should not read all the way to 4

[klr142]

Ugh. Seth, I wish you weren't in such a rush when you type things up. :-P

Ben, the car stabilizes around 2.4-2.6, if I remember correctly while holding it at or just above 2000rpm. I don't know what it does at other rpm.

Initially, we were having issues with the req fuel and etc, and now it's set at 8.5(iirc) on the 42lb CFIs, but that wasn't until after we figured out that the TPS initially blew the fues that powers the injectors and was causing us to get no fuel at all.

So, after getting fuel, and finally getting the car to start, it was running VERY rough, and wouldn't start on it's own without some help from someone playing with the throttle, kind of like trying to start a carburated car pumping the throttle lightly, fast, to keep it a float. Then, I'd rev it up to around 2000, and it'd drop down all of a sudden and try to die after a couple seconds. Each time we started it up, it lasted a bit longer before it tried to kill itself(while holding the throttle constant).

I haven't been up there since the initial start, but it sounds like(aside from the wideband reading in Volts, and the TPS doing whatever it's doing) that's still one of the problems that Seth's trying to figure out. You get it started, hold it at a steady rpm(I don't know about idle) and eventually it'll just die out.

And judging by the wideband reading out 2.4-2.6(approximately an A/F ratio of 15), it's running lean. Which makes sense, in my opinion.

0 1 2 3 4 5
10 12 14 16 18 20

Seth, just for ****s and giggles, check all your vacuum lines and hoses and all that ish, among all the other things you need to do.

John, sadly, the car is far from driveable... :(

And Seth, if you let Kevin drive your car, I'm seriously going to kill you.

So, what's the latest? I'll be down in Cali, leaving tomorrow morning early, but I wish I could be up there getting that biatch on the road!

[sethfc]

Ugh. Seth, I wish you weren't in such a rush when you type things up. :-P

Ben, the car stabilizes around 2.4-2.6, if I remember correctly while holding it at or just above 2000rpm. I don't know what it does at other rpm.

Initially, we were having issues with the req fuel and etc, and now it's set at 8.5(iirc) on the 42lb CFIs, but that wasn't until after we figured out that the TPS initially blew the fues that powers the injectors and was causing us to get no fuel at all.

So, after getting fuel, and finally getting the car to start, it was running VERY rough, and wouldn't start on it's own without some help from someone playing with the throttle, kind of like trying to start a carburated car pumping the throttle lightly, fast, to keep it a float. Then, I'd rev it up to around 2000, and it'd drop down all of a sudden and try to die after a couple seconds. Each time we started it up, it lasted a bit longer before it tried to kill itself(while holding the throttle constant).

I haven't been up there since the initial start, but it sounds like(aside from the wideband reading in Volts, and the TPS doing whatever it's doing) that's still one of the problems that Seth's trying to figure out. You get it started, hold it at a steady rpm(I don't know about idle) and eventually it'll just die out.

And judging by the wideband reading out 2.4-2.6(approximately an A/F ratio of 15), it's running lean. Which makes sense, in my opinion.

0 1 2 3 4 5
10 12 14 16 18 20

Seth, just for ****s and giggles, check all your vacuum lines and hoses and all that ish, among all the other things you need to do.

John, sadly, the car is far from driveable... :(

And Seth, if you let Kevin drive your car, I'm seriously going to kill you.

So, what's the latest? I'll be down in Cali, leaving tomorrow morning early, but I wish I could be up there getting that biatch on the road!

so you spent all that time typing, yet we all know whats going on / what needs to be done =p

[klr142]

:-P

Then how come it isn't parked in front of my house waiting for me to take it for a test drive, mister smarty pants...

[The Aspirator]

Get that wideband working fools! I'll bet that either you're really rich or lean, and/or that your afterstart and warmup enrichments are total poop. If you crank the base idle up to like 1200 it should idle on it's own when cold, even with crappy settings.

So instead of holding it at a steady RPM, can you keep it alive by abusing the throttle? Or does it like always die after X-many seconds?

8.2 reqfuel sounds perfect, that's about where mine is with CFI's.

Again, are you running MS for spark too? Or just teh k-jets for spark? How's your ignition timing? Done a cam swap recently? How's the cam (timing belt) timing?

We wanna get this thing rolling again! :-D

John

[klr142]

John, he is running spark as well. And you can keep the car on by blipping it, it doesn't always die after a certain amount of time. At least it wasn't when I was there. And regarding everything else. This car's been apart for a long time. And the motor's from his other car, and he took it apart some, resurfaced the head, grooved it a little(grooves are too small, but whatever), installed a Cometic headgasket, I think .035"?, hybrid t3/t4 turbo, K cam, and MSnS. All at once. Not to mention, painting the engine bay, stripping the interior completely for cleaning up, going through the trunk with paint/rust removing, suspension swap, Getrag swap, exhaust(ends after cat at this point underneath the car), wheels, brakes, suspension.

A LOT of freaking crap, ALL at once. Car is no where near driveable... Even if he's been saying it's almost done and ready to drive for the past couple of months when he wants people to come up there and help him get it done. It's a senior project for him.

(see Seth, "everyone knows" is bull****, which I could tell because you didn't mention everything in this thread, and not everyone follows you around to keep track of what you're doing.)

[The Aspirator]

Hit it with a timing light. Set the fixed spark angle (in "Spark Settings") to like 20*, and with a timing cover on the engine it should read 20*.

That might be messed up, or your cam timing might be messed too. Can't hurt to check it. Set the engine at TDC and see how the cam and distributor line up to where they're supposed to (search for answers to that, I've posted it a few times).

If ALLLL that checks out and there's still something wrong, your car is on crack. hahaha

John

[klr142]

We played with it some more last night, and talked to Adrian a bit over AIM...

After adding resistors, I arrived at Seth's house to find them trying to start it without success. So I rattled brains for a bit, and we got it to act like ALMOST like it did before adding the resistor pack and swapping to Mike's(740ATL) latest setup(it ran better before we added the resistor pack). Not until after we tried swapping around the connectors on the injectors to every combination possible... It didn't like alternating because it wasn't getting enough fuel to begin with, so it always "ran" better with the injectors set to simultaneous. The symptoms we were getting were it would be way lean(nice to have a properly reading AFR guage) whenever you try to get the car to hold a throttle position. If you kept tapping the gas pedal it would read out more proper AFRs of between 13 and 15.

Anywho, we checked some settings with what Adrian was running, and we did make one noteworthy change, I can't remember what it was called, but we went from 75% to 100%. Supposedly the 75% number was for using with injectors that don't have or require a resistor pack, and we should've had it at 100% with injectors that require resistors. Makes sense.

Still no good running though, so he said to bump up the req_fuel until it was happy... Good advice!!! We tried 9 from 8.6, no difference. I tried 12, still not happy, but a little better. Tried 18, and BAM it was acting normal! Except for the lean on initial throttle, but that's because the TPS isn't hooked up or calibrated. I'm not sure if we still have it set on simultaneous or alternating, but I think simultaneous. If we switch that back to alternating, we'll have to bump up the req_fuel more, and it'll become ever closer to the 21 number that Seth originally calculated the number should be...

Then we bled the brakes to get it another step closer to being roadworthy.

So, is there something wrong? :) IT RUNS THOUGH!

[The Aspirator]

The only way that you originally calculated that your ReqFuel should be anywhere near 21 is if you assumed that the engine size is 350CI, which it ain't. It's 141. Not that it's a big deal, just saying that if you plop 42lb CFI's into the calculator it will spit out an 8.8 reqfuel. Either way you guys proudly found out that you were running WAAAAY lean! Good to know. I don't think it really matters what the actual reqfuel is, cause it all scales anyways. As long as you're driving around with the proper AFR then who cares right?

Also I'm not sure of the history of your components, but once it's tuned right if it's still running rough you might have a bum injector/spark plug/wire. Say it's idling really lumpy but it's got a healty 13.5afr and 20* timing, you might have one injector that's not working, so the other three have to be jacked way up so that the wideband reads happy, and it'll still run like crap (3 cylinders, but it might be smoother than you'd imagine). Or if you have fouled plugs, or a bad spark plug wire, etc etc etc. That's why I really like to run cleaned and flowed fuel injectors, so that I KNOW they're working right.

I'm sure you're excited to drive it!

John

[adrianpike]

Also I'm not sure of the history of your components, but once it's tuned right if it's still running rough you might have a bum injector/spark plug/wire. Say it's idling really lumpy but it's got a healty 13.5afr and 20* timing, you might have one injector that's not working, so the other three have to be jacked way up so that the wideband reads happy, and it'll still run like crap (3 cylinders, but it might be smoother than you'd imagine). Or if you have fouled plugs, or a bad spark plug wire, etc etc etc. That's why I really like to run cleaned and flowed fuel injectors, so that I KNOW they're working right.

I sure learned that one the hard way.

Matt: "You're running on 3 cylinders."
Me: "No way, it's so smooth though!"
Matt: "Suit yourself."

edit: John, where do you get injectors flowed around here?

[holtzboy]

Yes its good to hear it idling on its own and sounding more like a real Volvo now. If I had a better understanding of Megasquirt I probably could have troubleshooted more but honestly it still scares me and I have a lot of reading to do before I even consider it. I am happy with my 240hp / LH 2.2 combo that I don't have to tune or worry about too much.

He got the injectors from Pete fresh from cleaning/painting. Also has the iPd (Kingsbourne) spark plug wires with NGK BP7ES plugs. Couple other little things are the distributor's connector broke off so we jb welded it back on and then had to sand it away a little so the cap could snap on with the two clips properly. Speaking of that the distributor cap is NOT new and I tried to clean the contacts but I am gonna make him grab a new one from the store. We really have to focus on getting the wiring entanglement tamed down and put the dash back in so its not so scary looking.

[klr142]

Yeah, as Shane said, the injectors were cleaned and flowed before being sent over(but they don't seal for crap when you touch them, well, some of them...).

And I knew it was running lean ever since we first started it up... :???: It's just no one ever mentioned the possibility of it actually wanting THAT much fuel. It would've started up the first day and ran fine if we had played with req fuel after he got the spark figured out and the TPS wiring not backwards. Would've saved LOADS of time. But we would probably have not realized that we should've been using resistors all along.

Oh well, so what's next? Any reason why we SHOULDN'T hook up and calibrate the TPS before we go for the first drive? Man, I can't wait!

Shane/Seth, how far did you guys come along last night? Shane was saying that the brakes are still spongey, but did you guys get around to tinkering with anything else? Or no?

[adrianpike]

You don't need resistor packs anymore, MS has PWM on the injector controllers, as you gents found out.

[klr142]

So take out the resistor packs and keep running 100%?

[adrianpike]

So take out the resistor packs and keep running 100%?

No, take out the resistor packs and set the PWM appropriate to the impedance of the injectors.

(or just call it good since it runs, stop screwing with it, and go tune ;-) )

[klr142]

set the PWM appropriate to the impedance of the injectors.

(or just call it good since it runs, stop screwing with it, and go tune ;-) )
How do we know what's "appropriate"?

[adrianpike]

How do we know what's "appropriate"?

I believe you bust out your multimeter, measure the resistance of an injector, and then read this:
http://www.megamanual.com/v22manual/minj.htm

[klr142]

Ok, now Seth knows what he needs to do... :-P

[adrianpike]

Ok, now Seth knows what he needs to do... :-P

no! just leave it! it runs!
That was what you guys were supposed to read before you started screwing around with resistor packs. Get it running well, then go for that last 5% of driveability and reliability.

[klr142]

The resistor packs weren't my idea! But if that's only effecting the ~5% of reliability/driveability, I'm sure we won't mind leaving that for later... :)

[The Aspirator]

Good to know that you guys have ruled out the injector/plug possiblility.
edit: John, where do you get injectors flowed around here?I send mine out to Rich at Cruzin Performance, http://www.cruzinperformance.com. For $14ea it's worth every penny, and I'm cheap! Going from crappy old greentops to cleaned CFI's made a huuuuge difference to my engine last spring.

[740ATL]

Guys, I only recommended the resistor packs because the car wasn't running. I didn't realize you could just fiddle with teh PWM settings with low impedance injectors... I thought you had to use the flyback board to use the PWM settings... who knew.

At any rate, agreed... stop fiddling and drive. :)

[linuxman51]

Guys, I only recommended the resistor packs because the car wasn't running. I didn't realize you could just fiddle with teh PWM settings with low impedance injectors... I thought you had to use the flyback board to use the PWM settings... who knew.

At any rate, agreed... stop fiddling and drive. :)

you should use a flyback board for pwm if you're running a v2.2 board, they have a nasty habbit of blowning out the injector driver if you dont

[sethfc]

cool, so the resistors are a good thing.