All you need to know about the M90

[SteveMD]

Cool. Maybe I can just run a bolt through the engine side, slap a big nut and washer on trans side to secure trans then attach bracket to the bolt and secure with a nut/lockwasher.

Can some one with Vadis see if the M90 and AW71 use the same rear drive shaft in the 940 b230ft?

I suspect they don't and am worried that the spline shaft on my rear DS may have bottomed out in the M90 front DS, possibly damaging the M90 output shaft bearing. I heard it happened to a US t-bricker.

If the M90 and AW71 rear DS are different part #'s and different lengths, Fred may want to put a caution about that on the first page of this article.

It may also be helpful to know how the M46/M47 rear DS's compare as some may be swapping M90's in place of those boxes. Didn't MrBorrie do that?

[Steve940Estate]

I had a look on my Vadis disc and they don't list the rear section of the propshaft seperately. I would have thought that if the splines are the same they are probably the same bit. The distance from the bearing carrier to the diff flange should be the same.

I had a ZF auto in my car and the propshaft rear end looked the same. I was going to swap the front ends over but that would have probably affected the balancing and way the splines had worn.

[SteveMD]

I had a look on my Vadis disc and they don't list the rear section of the propshaft seperately. I would have thought that if the splines are the same they are probably the same bit. The distance from the bearing carrier to the diff flange should be the same.

I had a ZF auto in my car and the propshaft rear end looked the same. I was going to swap the front ends over but that would have probably affected the balancing and way the splines had worn.

Thanks for checking. Do you mean the ZF front prop is the same length as the M90 front prop? The AW71 front prop is shorter than the M90 front prop which is why I sourced the M90 front prop from Foggyjames.

[Steve940Estate]

Thanks for checking. Do you mean the ZF front prop is the same length as the M90 front prop? The AW71 front prop is shorter than the M90 front prop which is why I sourced the M90 front prop from Foggyjames.

No the front is different, the M90 has a rubber doughnut coupling on it as well.

The rear section from the center bearing back looked the same on both as far as I could tell.

Perhaps the problem you have is that the propshaft isn't balanced properly now or the splines need to wear in a bit .

[frpe82]

Oh... I think I have got why you are having problems.

Please tell me exactly (in the order from gearbox to diff) what components you have.

Let me give you an example of my 940:

Gearbox
Output shaft with tri-arm
Rubber hardy disc
Shaft tri-arm
Shaft
Splines
Joint
Shaft
Joint
Flange yoke
Diff

On other applications/cars it may look like this:

Gearbox
Output shaft with flange
Flange yoke
Shaft
Splines
Joint
Shaft
Joint
Flange yoke
Diff

Some have a rubber hardy disc, and some don't.

There are also other setups that can work with the M90, but please tell me exactly what your setup is and I will tell you if it is right or not.

I aqm starting to suspect some stuff based on the fact that you say that the shaft is very compressed.

However, the shaft is very compressed on the M90 cars. And 9 times out of 10 it is almost impossible to get the shaft up/down from the gearbox output shaft. So that is something you should never worry about.

[frpe82]

The propeller shaft is also different depending on if you have a 4-door or 5-door (the rubber hardy disc setup is somewhat different but otherwise it is the same).

4-door cars M90 propeller shaft: 3520362
5-door cars M90 propeller shaft: 9143292

[frpe82]

I had a look on my Vadis disc and they don't list the rear section of the propshaft seperately.
I also looked that up and was going to post it. But since you did it, I didn't bother to repeat it.

I think it is strange that they don't list the part numbers for the separate rear and front shafts.

But anyway... the AW71L rear shaft is the same as the M90 rear shaft. I have seen it several times.

[Steve940Estate]

I also looked that up and was going to post it. But since you did it, I didn't bother to repeat it.

I think it is strange that they don't list the part numbers for the separate rear and front shafts.

But anyway... the AW71L rear shaft is the same as the M90 rear shaft. I have seen it several times.

Perhaps it's to do with the balancing. Not many garages would want the trouble of getting it done if the could just fit a whole propshaft, thats assuming they are balanced as one.

The propshaft is pretty compressed on my car thinking about it. There isn't enough movement to unhook the front end on it's own you have to take the rear end and center bearing mount off first.

[SteveMD]

Oh... I think I have got why you are having problems.

Please tell me exactly (in the order from gearbox to diff) what components you have.

Let me give you an example of my 940:

Gearbox
Output shaft with tri-arm
Rubber hardy disc
Shaft tri-arm
Shaft
Splines
Joint
Shaft
Joint
Flange yoke
Diff

On other applications/cars it may look like this:

Gearbox
Output shaft with flange
Flange yoke
Shaft
Splines
Joint
Shaft
Joint
Flange yoke
Diff

Some have a rubber hardy disc, and some don't.

There are also other setups that can work with the M90, but please tell me exactly what your setup is and I will tell you if it is right or not.

I aqm starting to suspect some stuff based on the fact that you say that the shaft is very compressed.

However, the shaft is very compressed on the M90 cars. And 9 times out of 10 it is almost impossible to get the shaft up/down from the gearbox output shaft. So that is something you should never worry about.

Hi, Fred,

Just a quick reply. I have the first setup in the car now. Not sure I will have time to get the car up and check things again until next week. (going out of town tomorrow evening).

Your and the other replies are helpful. I might need balancing but that's not the concern here.

Thanks,

Steve

[SteveMD]

To you guys who also found the front of the prop shaft hard to pull off the M90 tri-arm, was your rear axle at full droop? Mine was and my concern is that when the rear is at on-ground ride height, the rear prop shaft spline section might be bottoming out inside the front prop shaft.

Cheers,

steve

[Steve940Estate]

To you guys who also found the front of the prop shaft hard to pull off the M90 tri-arm, was your rear axle at full droop? Mine was and my concern is that when the rear is at on-ground ride height, the rear prop shaft spline section might be bottoming out inside the front prop shaft.

Cheers,

steve

I think I was supporting the back using axle stands under the axle so it ws pretty much at ride height. Probably would have been easier if it was at full droop though.

[foggyjames]

As far as I'm aware, all redblock (and diesel) boxes use the rubber guibo, and all live-axle 7/900s have the same rear half of the prop. Only the front is different. The two halves also appear to be indepedently balanced, and we have mixed and matched prop sections without a problem.

I can't see a problem with what you've done, Steve...US Steve that is, not UK Steve :rofl: Well...I'm sure what UK Steve has done is fine too....er...anyone got a spade? :rofl:

cheers

James

[SteveMD]

Thanks, Foggy. I will sleep a bit more soundly tonight. For you guys amusement, check out this pic of interior carnage post M90 install and drive home. (2 hours) I didn't want to mess with any wires until I was safely home :rofl: Yes, that's a reverse light switch in the ashtray door as the reverse light switch in the Aw71 failed some time ago as did the neutral safety switch.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3639/3418788897_5e512a88ea.jpg?v=0

[SteveMD]

BTW, here is MrBorrie's pic of his M90 and M46 prop shafts. It looks like the spline/yoke section of the M46 shaft 'might' be longer but determining that by the pic is hard due to camera angle and tape on the M90 spline/yoke section.

http://img113.imageshack.us/img113/8687/img0899.jpg

[foggyjames]

Well...that's curious. It DOES look longer...but...it's the same axle, and the same location for the bearing carrier, so it doesn't make sense for the rear section to be longer. Note that the M90 front prop section pictured appears to be missing its boot over the female spline section...which makes it look yet more odd.

cheers

James

[Steve940Estate]

Some cars had different center bearings. I'm not sure what the difference is though. I looked up the front yoke as it's got a part number and they all seemed to be the same.


I have just looked again and all of the front yokes I can find are the same part number 1340500.
I can't suggest anything else other than are there any differences in engine and gearbox mounting.

[SteveMD]

Some cars had different center bearings. I'm not sure what the difference is though. I looked up the front yoke as it's got a part number and they all seemed to be the same.


I have just looked again and all of the front yokes I can find are the same part number 1340500.
I can't suggest anything else other than are there any differences in engine and gearbox mounting.

Good to know. I won't get a chance to check the car until next week. It will stay parked until then as I will be out of town. Happy Easter, guys.

[SteveMD]

This weekend while trying to fit the AW71 exhaust bracket to the M90 (fail) I noticed something interesting re. the rubber trans mount. When I did the swap, I reused the AW71 crossmember with AW71 mount.

On Saturday, I decided to use the crossmember with mount Foggyjames included with the M90 he sent me 2+years ago. I noticed that the mount surface that contacts the trans sits about 3/4 inch higher than the AW71 mount. The crossmembers are the same, though.

I now think a 30mph driveline vibration is gone. Will test drive during lunch. Can someone with VADIS check to see if the AW71 and M90 trans mounts have different part numbers?

[frpe82]

I now think a 30mph driveline vibration is gone. Will test drive during lunch. Can someone with VADIS check to see if the AW71 and M90 trans mounts have different part numbers?
They have the same part number.

[Steve940Estate]

I just had a quick look and found a similar looking mounting part number 1330831. This was fitted to b200e early 940's with AW gearboxes.
The M90 doesn't have any washer on the pin that goes through it the AW one does but the info seems a bit mixed up on the later 940 lists.
Perhaps there was another one.

[frpe82]

I had another look to investigate it further.

It seems like the older gearbox member had a different mount.

Problem solved.

[SteveMD]

I had another look to investigate it further.

It seems like the older gearbox member had a different mount.

Problem solved.

Yes, seems so. Car smoother. Going to check driveshaft halfs for possible bottoming out in spline section soon.

[Janspeed]

FYI: my new clutch setup: stock old style dogdish LH2.4 flywheel, 850R friction plate and Sachs race engineering pressureplate.
I put 3 washers (about 5mm) behind the pivot bolt. It works but the clutch disengages only after deep pedal travel. Maybe i should have put in some more washers?

the old stock turbo clutch was totally buggered, worn to the rivets after only 19kkm. And i do not ride the clutch, ever. It's just too weak for anything over 280-290Nm.

while the box was out i took the chance to change the reverse light switch (once the M90 is installed you can't get to it) , this switch is known to fail, mine never worked since i bought the car 4 years ago, now i actually have reversing lights. LOL.
The grip of the clutch is excelent, very nice to modulate. Kinda heavy to operate, female unfriendly i guess.
But it is not much heavier then the stock clutch of my BMW inline 6.
The loss of dual-massness manifests itself by a slightly rougher engine sound. The response to throttle inputs seems slightly more direct.
Overall: mission accomplished.

next: raise boost back up!

[HansW]

Dear members
janspeed:
clutch issue known and fixed -- we had this discussion earlier but in a nutshell:
Grind off 0.5 mm off the mating face of the flywheel and also grind off a bit in 45 deg angle on the inner part ( innere Kante der Andruckflaeche am Schwungrad eine 45 Grad phase abdrehen etwa 2,5 mm weit rein, so dass die Nieten welche die Belaege auf der Mitnehmerscheibe halten nicht auf der Schwungrad schleifen), so that the rivets dont touch the flywheel. (write me a pm and i can explain properly)
pivot balls can be exchanged betwenn M 46, M47 M90 and have different heights. but with my modifications to the flywheel I had to use the standard M 90 Pivot ball in the M90 set-up.
Driveshafts:
backpart always the same and to my knowledge balanced seperately.
front part M90: different length to all the others.
rubber-coupler: all the same

[testhest]

while the box was out i took the chance to change the reverse light switch (once the M90 is installed you can't get to it) , this switch is known to fail, mine never worked since i bought the car 4 years ago, now i actually have reversing lights. LOL.

Congrats on the install of the new clutch.

I just want to mention that the switch can actually be changed without removing the M90.
Did it on mine about a year ago. Just lovered the gearbox enough to get a spanne on the switch. Not a lot of room to move around in, but it can be done.

[Captain Bondo]

Oddly enough the switch is fairly easy to access in my 240.

Also mini update - my box sill seems quite happy w/ redline shockproof. Assuming I have my other engine issues sorted out, it will actually get some real flogging this weekend. Currently the box still thinks it is owned by a sane person. :oogle:

[WeezilUSA]

Oddly enough the switch is fairly easy to access in my 240.

Also mini update - my box sill seems quite happy w/ redline shockproof. Assuming I have my other engine issues sorted out, it will actually get some real flogging this weekend. Currently the box still thinks it is owned by a sane person. :oogle:

I'm sure it is going to change it's mind in a hurry:omg:

[SteveMD]

Will M56 gears fit in the M90? Another tbricker tells me the M56 ratios are better and I have noticed the almost 1500 rpm drop when going from first to second gear.

We both have M90L boxes in our cars. I figured if it can be done, the Europeans would have done it by now.

[frpe82]

Will M56 gears fit in the M90? Another tbricker tells me the M56 ratios are better and I have noticed the almost 1500 rpm drop when going from first to second gear.

We both have M90L boxes in our cars. I figured if it can be done, the Europeans would have done it by now.
Actually... people are very unsure of that.

But both the M90 and M56 share some internals and technology (for a fact), so I bet that you could use gears or other components.

The problem is that no one here on TB has tried it.

The main question/obstacle is whether or not the M56 has the same length and diameter on the axles. If so, then it should work.

[Captain Bondo]

Will M56 gears fit in the M90? Another tbricker tells me the M56 ratios are better and I have noticed the almost 1500 rpm drop when going from first to second gear.

We both have M90L boxes in our cars. I figured if it can be done, the Europeans would have done it by now.

Mine feels pretty decent ratio-wise, but it's an M90H I guess.. that said, M56's are easy to get here, so if I break my M90 I fully intend to get an M56 and see if anything interchanges.

[foggyjames]

The problem is that no one here on TB has tried it.
Not so...it has been done...and it does work ;-)

cheers

James

[frpe82]

Not so...it has been done...and it does work ;-)

cheers

James
Then we're all good.

From which M56 version were the internal parts swapped, and to which M90 version? I know for a fact that you can not mix and match some of the the parts between the M90L and H. I guess the same applies to the M56-M90 parts as well.

[Asleeper]

Then we're all good.

From which M56 version were the internal parts swapped, and to which M90 version? I know for a fact that you can not mix and match some of the the parts between the M90L and H. I guess the same applies to the M56-M90 parts as well.

Going from the above information, I'll probably look for an M56L since my M90 is also the L version. Is there an easy way tell if its an M56H or L before I pull it out of the car?

[frpe82]

Going from the above information, I'll probably look for an M56L since my M90 is also the L version. Is there an easy way tell if its an M56H or L before I pull it out of the car?
Some of them have a sticker on the transmission. Other than that, the only sure way of knowing which version it is, is to turn the input shaft and count the rotations of the output shaft.

[Asleeper]

Some of them have a sticker on the transmission. Other than that, the only sure way of knowing which version it is, is to turn the input shaft and count the rotations of the output shaft.

Where would the sticker be located on the transmission and what years of 850's would be more likely to have an L version?

[frpe82]

Where would the sticker be located on the transmission and what years of 850's would be more likely to have an L version?
That I will have to check.

[foggyjames]

I think the limitation is probably that you have to swap both cogs in each gear :rofl:

I'll see if I can get the guy who did it to post in here...

cheers

James

[frpe82]

I think the limitation is probably that you have to swap both cogs in each gear :rofl:
Yes, exactly.

[swede242]

FWIW.....I bought 3 M90's about 2 years ago - one had a bad 3rd gear. I took it to a very reputable trans shop (he's done a 6 spd conversion into a Lotus) where we spoke of the similarities of an M90 and M56. The shop owner found a very low mileage M56 with a cracked housing and used it as a donor for the M90.

I wasn't there but parts from the M56 were used and the M90 is as good as new.

The repairs cost almost as much as the M90 did, so no idea why you'd want to do it for a "better ratio" unless you had stupid $$$ or were really really bored (and had stupid $$$).

[Captain Bondo]

The repairs cost almost as much as the M90 did, so no idea why you'd want to do it for a "better ratio" unless you had stupid $$$ or were really really bored (and had stupid $$$).

Because you were paying the labor. If we're talking buying JY M56's and swapping parts ourselves, it's a different ball game.

This is fantastic news. I'm going to scoop up an M56...

[foggyjames]

...and everyone's happy :)

cheers

James

[SteveMD]

Where would the sticker be located on the transmission and what years of 850's would be more likely to have an L version?

Some info in this thread but not the exact years. I guess asking at volvospeed would get more specific info. http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?p=2406430#post2406430

[frpe82]

I made some updates to the first post.

I added the electric connections that has to be made to get it to work properly.

[SteveMD]

The only issue I have with my M90L running the Volvo ...645 oil is that the shift to second is very 'notchy' like there are 2 steps to it and I don't rush that shift or any others. All the other gears shift very smooth.

[Captain Bondo]

The shockproof heavy is still working well. It shifts a bit like how steve descibes his second gear change for the first 5 minutes of driving when cold, then it's like butter except for 4th which is ****ed (not the oil's fault).

Also I took this box apart completely and reassembled it when had the 4th gear synchro issue. They aren't bad to work on at all. I think the difficulty associated with working on themhas been overplayed a bit.

[SteveMD]

I am a sad panda. My car is making a ringing, bad bearing noise at idle which we at BNE's shop traced to the clutch/tranny. I'm hoping it is the throw out bearing. I never was happy with how the clutch fork boot pressed the TO bearing against the clutch PP fingers, essentially spinning the internal bearing in the TO brg ALL the time the engine was running. It does get louder when I rev the engine in neutral. I forgot what Rob said but I think it made no difference with the clutch in or out.

I'm going to try to isolate this noise with engine running and me under the car, pressing the fork forward to get the TO brg off the PP fingers.

[frpe82]

I am a sad panda. My car is making a ringing, bad bearing noise at idle which we at BNE's shop traced to the clutch/tranny. I'm hoping it is the throw out bearing. I never was happy with how the clutch fork boot pressed the TO bearing against the clutch PP fingers, essentially spinning the internal bearing in the TO brg ALL the time the engine was running. It does get louder when I rev the engine in neutral. I forgot what Rob said but I think it made no difference with the clutch in or out.

I'm going to try to isolate this noise with engine running and me under the car, pressing the fork forward to get the TO brg off the PP fingers.
I am sorry to hear that you have a bad sound coming from that area.

But all M90's, M56's etc. have the clutch fork pressing against the pressure plate all the time. The throwout bearings are designed for that use as well.

As long as you can actually push the fork with your fingers to get it (the throwout bearing) to move you will be fine, and the pressure will not be too much for it.

I hope you find the problem soon.

[foggyjames]

Was it a new TO bearing? Ryan's M90 installation has started making a strange noise or two on downshifts, but I think it's the 4-puck clutch 'oscillating', for the want of a better word to describe it.

cheers

James

[Captain Bondo]

Was it a new TO bearing? Ryan's M90 installation has started making a strange noise or two on downshifts, but I think it's the 4-puck clutch 'oscillating', for the want of a better word to describe it.

cheers

James

Indeed- my clutch disc actually makes all manner of odd noises like that- half becuase of the nut that found its way in there and half becuase I am still missing some interior so noise is amplified.

When I get concerned about it I kick the clutch a little in 2nd gear and melt the tires up to 7000rpm or so just to make sure everything is still ok. :D

[SteveMD]

Was it a new TO bearing? Ryan's M90 installation has started making a strange noise or two on downshifts, but I think it's the 4-puck clutch 'oscillating', for the want of a better word to describe it.

cheers

James

Yes, new bearing. I asked Ben and Rob to chime in here with more noise-description info.

[Volvorules]

It actually sounds like a rattling sound...like something is loose. That or the throwout bearing is just toast, or not lubed at all. We were thinking it could be a bolt that fell out of something in there, but the noise is too constant for it to be something like that. I'm guessing it's the t/o bearing, but may have some issue with the pressure plate. It made a much different noise when the clutch was depressed, but only 2 out of the 20 or so times we tried.

[SteveMD]

It actually sounds like a rattling sound...like something is loose. That or the throwout bearing is just toast, or not lubed at all. We were thinking it could be a bolt that fell out of something in there, but the noise is too constant for it to be something like that. I'm guessing it's the t/o bearing, but may have some issue with the pressure plate. It made a much different noise when the clutch was depressed, but only 2 out of the 20 or so times we tried.

Thanks, Rob. The pressure plate is a standard volvo b230FT plate and the disc a 940 diesel sprung hub disc. I can't imagine MikeP and I missed a PP bolt or something. He made sure to lube the input shaft splines and the input shaft tube on the trans the TO brg slides on. I wonder if the TO brg came unseated from the fork. Will find out next week when I get under the car.

I hadn't driven it very hard yet really, the 13c is only putting out 6psi.

[ZVOLV]

I just got my M90!

1. Anybody have the Volvo part number for the 850 clutch disc that will work?

2. Part number for the pilot bushing

3. Alignment tool part number

4. M56 Tranny oil work fine?

5. Sources for clutch setups

6. How does the nub on the shift linkage mount. I think mine came with some bracket that mounts to the rear two shift boot threaded holes.

[frpe82]

I just got my M90!

1. Anybody have the Volvo part number for the 850 clutch disc that will work?

2. Part number for the pilot bushing

3. Alignment tool part number

4. M56 Tranny oil work fine?

5. Sources for clutch setups

6. How does the nub on the shift linkage mount. I think mine came with some bracket that mounts to the rear two shift boot threaded holes.
Look at post #1 in this thread. It will tell you most of the stuff you want to know.

The only things that are not listed there are question 2, 3 and 5.

2: It doesn't use a pilot bushing.

3: Dunno... can you rent one from Volvo? I use a really cheap kit from a Swedish company (15 bucks).

5: It depends on what you want. Sachs, or some other brands?

[ZVOLV]

I'm obviously confused. Sorry.

1. I need to be very careful about not ordering the wrong clutch disc from the dealer because its non returnable since its special order. ($350) This pic also turns me off since it looks too small compared to the 740 disc.

http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff56/Nitrox5/2009/DSC00752.jpg

2. The part number for this thing:

http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/8615/img0856o.th.jpg (http://img10.imageshack.us/my.php?image=img0856o.jpg)

3. Looking for ideas on where I can get the right tool and the part number. Volvo definately doesnt have this tool.

4. I just bought 3 quarts of M56 oil at $22 each so I hope I made the right move.

5. I am looking for Sach's clutch or OEM clutch. Stockish since I am gonna be nice to my tranny for a while.

6. I have a bracket, but it doesnt look like the one in the VADIS pics above. That one looks like it hangs on the lip of the shifter hole, but I think I have one that mounts to the threaded holes for the shifter boot.

[foggyjames]

Hey Zach,

Fred sounds like he's got you covered on most of those points. Additional comments...

1) I just went and put an S70 NA clutch (228mm) in a dished flywheel, and it fits perfectly. My housemate's 740 (dished flywheel, M90 diesel plate) now runs a ClutchNet 850 (228mm) disc, and it works very nicely...very streetable. As long as that 850R clutch is 228mm diameter, you should be AOK. Were the 228mm FWD clutches always for a solid flywheel? If so, they should have a sprung centre, while the dual mass ones have a solid centre. You may need to make more or less of a leap of faith on this one, unless we can find someone actually running an 850R disc.

The other thing to bear in mind is that we got an M90 diesel clutch (complete) to hold around 300lbft before it started slipping. Quite independently, a clutch specialist said that the limit for a 228mm organic clutch will be around 300lbft. Unless the 850R disc friction material is made of something exotic, it may be no grippier than an M90 diesel disc, and any 'magic' is all in the 850R pressure plate...which won't fit the redblock dished flywheel. On that basis, I'd be sorely tempted to fit an M46 turbo plate with either a lesser 850 disc (if they're cheaper), a M90 diesel disc, or even a ClutchNet 228mm sprung 4-puck. The one in Ryan's car is very "streetable", given what it is.

2 and 3) I always align clutches just using a 3/8" extension bar. When it "wobbles" an equal distance up, down, left and right (pivoted from the pilot bearing), the disc is sitting centrally. The car I just did had an M46-style pilot bearing in place, which clears the M90 input shaft fine. The metal piece you've pictured there is only used for clutch alignment - the input shaft doesn't make contact with it (obviously, if you think about it :rofl: ). If you already have an M46-style pilot bearing, I'd use that to align the clutch. If not, the PN for that metal jobbie appears to be 1397077...but that's all it's there for: clutch alignment.

6) The bracket you have is the same one in the Vadis pic...it's just a crappy drawing of it. You can either bolt it up to the underside of the shifter boot clamp bolts (once installed...using 10mm-headed (M5? whatever...) nuts), or slip it over the edge of the opening in the chassis before you bolt the shifter boot down. The latter is the stock setup, but it does make removal more difficult.

cheers

James

[swede242]

I run an 850R disc. Works perfectly.

[frpe82]

I'm obviously confused. Sorry.

1. I need to be very careful about not ordering the wrong clutch disc from the dealer because its non returnable since its special order. ($350) This pic also turns me off since it looks too small compared to the 740 disc.

http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff56/Nitrox5/2009/DSC00752.jpg

2. The part number for this thing:

http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/8615/img0856o.th.jpg (http://img10.imageshack.us/my.php?image=img0856o.jpg)

3. Looking for ideas on where I can get the right tool and the part number. Volvo definately doesnt have this tool.

4. I just bought 3 quarts of M56 oil at $22 each so I hope I made the right move.

5. I am looking for Sach's clutch or OEM clutch. Stockish since I am gonna be nice to my tranny for a while.

6. I have a bracket, but it doesnt look like the one in the VADIS pics above. That one looks like it hangs on the lip of the shifter hole, but I think I have one that mounts to the threaded holes for the shifter boot.
No problems. We'll help you.

1: Yes, the 850 disc is a little bit smaller, but not much. I used both the 850 and 940 TDi clutch discs. They both work good. The TDi disc is actually a little bit smoother with somewhat better control.

2: The M90 doesn't use a pilot bearing or bushing. Only the M46/M47 boxes use those. Don't install one.

3: I don't know where you can get one locally, but here in Sweden, at a store called Biltema, we can buy a kit like this for 20 bucks: http://www.biltema.se/products/product.asp?iSecId=501&iItemId=82429

And a bigger pic: http://www.biltema.se/products/productimage.asp?iItemId=82429

It contains all the clutch alignment tool sizes you will ever need.

4: If it has the same number as any of the oils listed in the first post, then you are set and good to go.

5: The stock Volvo clutch is Sachs. And I recommend you to get the TDi plate from Volvo (or anywhere else if you can get it cheaper there).

6: It looks strange in the picture, but once you are under there to install it, you will know how to do it.

[kildea]

2: The M90 doesn't use a pilot bearing or bushing. Only the M46/M47 boxes use those. Don't install one.


i completely believe you guys with this, but it comes as a surprise, i would expect the alignment of that disk/shaft to be a primary concern <i>especially</i> when loaded up.
is the snout just not long enough?
most manual transmissions do use pilot bearings/bushings for this reason.
it seems to be a simple mod that might improve input shaft bearing life and avoid potential internal flexing ... which of course has the potential to cause gear destruction (imagine the tranny loads up as the clutch disk works itself slightly off-center and the gears spread slightly due to the slightly off-axis torque, this is what kills the rx7 fd transmissions when failures due to flexing of the case occur).

so is it that the input shaft has no snout, or not a long one, something like this?

[Captain Bondo]

\
so is it that the input shaft has no snout, or not a long one, something like this?

No snout at all. Basically a little chamfer and that's it. If you see a pic of the input shaft bearing retainer, it makes more sense as to why it doesn't really need one. Same goes for m56's.

Also it's a bit different since it's a 3 shaft box... they way everything is supported internally is a bit different, and more impoerantly the shafts themselves are half as long as a conventional box with a single mainshaft remember.

Not to say some sort of support on the input shaft would hurt though...

[kildea]

No snout at all. Basically a little chamfer and that's it. If you see a pic of the input shaft bearing retainer, it makes more sense as to why it doesn't really need one. Same goes for m56's.

Also it's a bit different since it's a 3 shaft box... they way everything is supported internally is a bit different, and more impoerantly the shafts themselves are half as long as a conventional box with a single mainshaft remember.

Not to say some sort of support on the input shaft would hurt though...


yeah that makes sense, so it's more like a fwd box.

i'd really like to get my hands on one and see what's in there ...

[Asleeper]

I would imagine that an alignment tool from an 850 would work since the spline count is the same. The clutch disk is the same as any 850 and you can get them in many flavors from clutchnet...........cheaper than the dealer as well. I am currently using a clutchnet red PP&yellow 850 kevlar disk.

Whether or not the pilot bearing is needed on the M90 is up for debate but I went ahead and used one any. Not like its going to hurt anything and it cost a mere $10.

[ZVOLV]

1.Still kinda nervous on the clutch disc, but I might just buy one from local shop and see if its right.

2. Bushing 1397077. Want one. I don't like cutting corners. I doubt they can get one here in the US so paging Europe. I will ask the guy who is sending me ecodes if he can get me one. Or just say fuggit.

3. 850 Tool. Sounds like a good idea. Will check with IPD since they sold me the 740 one I use all the time.

4. Im just gonna run the oil I have. 850 oil should be the same.

5. I put an inquiry in last night to a clutch company, but big suprise, didnt hear from them today as they told me they would.

6. The bracket I have appears to be fine after further inspection.


The input shaft doesnt extent past the mating surface of the tranny and that bushing cant touch the shaft "Obviously "as Foggyjames said. Doubt the shaft would rotate in solid metal.

[Asleeper]

The oil on page 1 is all you need. The oil to use is listed on page 1 and it can be had at any Volvo dealer since 850's with manual trans use it as well.

[kildea]

...Doubt the shaft would rotate in solid metal.

plenty of applications call for a bushing rather than a bearing there - it'd rotate just fine in the solid bushing... if it only reached, heh.
keep in mind the bushing (on a typical application where the bearing or bushing is actually used) is only rotated with respect to the shaft when the clutch is depressed.

[Captain Bondo]

FWIW I just line the disc up so it is even around the circumference of the pressure plate, never have used a tool. Works fine.

Justin, I have some more misc pics of M90 guts from when i ripped it apart I'll post up soon..

[foggyjames]

plenty of applications call for a bushing rather than a bearing there - it'd rotate just fine in the solid bushing... if it only reached, heh.
Well either it wouldn't touch enough to actually do anything, or it'll drag too much to allow the clutch to work, surely?

For an M90, that bushing is only there to aid clutch alignment.

cheers

James

[kildea]

Well either it wouldn't touch enough to actually do anything, or it'll drag too much to allow the clutch to work, surely?

For an M90, that bushing is only there to aid clutch alignment.

cheers

James

i know what you are saying, it's just that plenty of oem manual transmissions use bushings rather than bearings, there is not any drag - it's not like it's press fit to the shaft it just slips in, keeps the shaft straight and is only slipping when the clutch is down.

before i ever did anything fun with my volvos (other than daily driving them) i built a couple of broncos - for these i just used t19 four speeds, this is an example where the pilot was just a brass bushing.
you just fill it with some grease and slip it in :e-shrug: this is rather common really.

maybe not in european cars? ... sure is common in the cars i'd previously dealt with (my old chevelle too)

[foggyjames]

Fair play dude...not something I've come across over here, but I don't play with a particularly wide range of cars. If it's a slightly loose fit and it's greased, I can see it working...just adding a little support. However...M90s are 'isolated', with no stub on the input shaft. It seems pretty alien to me...but there it is! I figure they know what they're doing.

cheers

James

[kildea]

Fair play dude...not something I've come across over here, but I don't play with a particularly wide range of cars. If it's a slightly loose fit and it's greased, I can see it working...just adding a little support. However...M90s are 'isolated', with no stub on the input shaft. It seems pretty alien to me...but there it is! I figure they know what they're doing.

cheers

James


i don't want people to confuse this discussion with the m90 though - i agree they have it set up differently, i just was confused by it at first :)

[JW240]

I just measured the M90 front drive shaft half. from the flange where the flex disc is mounted (gearbox side) to the end of the splined end (center bearing area) is 744 mm (that is without flex disc). Maybe useful for the ppl who need a custom drive shaft. For the people who have such a piece laying around, please double check my measurement.

[ZVOLV]

This is what I got. I will ask them for 1161745 instead of 1161645 and see what happens.

[frpe82]

I added the technical info for both the 645 and 745 oils in the first post of the thread.

[Captain Bondo]

So M56's newer than '95 use something else, but it's ok for all years of M90?

I sometimes get the feeling volvo just makes this stuff up as they go along...

[JW240]

I sometimes get the feeling volvo just makes this stuff up as they go along...

yeah.... same here. first the ....645 oil was for M90/M56 etc, aka 95+. now ....645 is for everything until 1995 (M90, M46, M56 etc), and the .....745 is for everything after that date. I think someone is having a lot of fun somewhere in Sweden, changing oil specifications and other stuff "just because he can".

[Mr.Borrie]

I know something to really piss them off! MWhaahahahahahaha

[foggyjames]

Hey Fred...a couple of things for the first post, perhaps...

Firstly, the reversing light switch is the same as for the M45, M46 and M47. No need to buy a brand new replacement at $40+ if it breaks. I found that out after I sheared the top off my M56 one, and spent the cash...and chopped the original plug off the loom... :-(

Secondly....no love for the Diesel M90 there ;)

cheers

James

[Turbosteen]

And I said this before in another thread: Some M46 gearbox cross members are the same as the M90 one....
You can change that as well in your first post.

[frpe82]

So M56's newer than '95 use something else, but it's ok for all years of M90?

I sometimes get the feeling volvo just makes this stuff up as they go along...

yeah.... same here. first the ....645 oil was for M90/M56 etc, aka 95+. now ....645 is for everything until 1995 (M90, M46, M56 etc), and the .....745 is for everything after that date. I think someone is having a lot of fun somewhere in Sweden, changing oil specifications and other stuff "just because he can".
Both yes and no...

The 645 oil have been used for quite some time, and the first generation of M90 boxes were suppose to use that oil as well (with a manufacture date up to early/mid '96). When the second generation M90 boxes came out (and some other FWD boxes), the oil specification got changed.

The newer boxes should only use the 745 oil, and not the 645 oil.

Even though the 645 oil is for the older M90 boxes, the recommendation is to use the newer 745 oil even in the older gearboxes nowadays.

[frpe82]

Hey Fred...a couple of things for the first post, perhaps...

Firstly, the reversing light switch is the same as for the M45, M46 and M47. No need to buy a brand new replacement at $40+ if it breaks. I found that out after I sheared the top off my M56 one, and spent the cash...and chopped the original plug off the loom... :-(
They don't offer any reverse light switches with original plugs for any gearbox here in Sweden now. They have been phased out. If you order a switch for an M46 or an M59 or whatever, you will still get the newest switch + a new plug and crimp connections.

[frpe82]

And I said this before in another thread: Some M46 gearbox cross members are the same as the M90 one....
You can change that as well in your first post.
I will do that later today if I haven't already changed it a while ago. I will have to check.

[Captain Bondo]

The newer boxes should only use the 745 oil, and not the 645 oil.

Even though the 645 oil is for the older M90 boxes, the recommendation is to use the newer 745 oil even in the older gearboxes nowadays.

But, it says all years of M90 right on the bottle...

[Mr.Borrie]

The reversing light switch is the same as for the M45, M46 and M47.

How does that hook up anyway.. mine still doesnt work (we also redid the wiring but no worky)

[frpe82]

But, it says all years of M90 right on the bottle...
That was probably written before the 745 oil was offered as the better oil.

[foggyjames]

They don't offer any reverse light switches with original plugs for any gearbox here in Sweden now. They have been phased out. If you order a switch for an M46 or an M59 or whatever, you will still get the newest switch + a new plug and crimp connections.
Sure...but it means the pool of boxes you can pull an original switch from is much larger than you might otherwise think :)

I believe the switch grounds the feed from the lights. The ones on Ryan's 740 don't work either, so I may not be the best person to ask :rofl:

cheers

James

[HansW]

Seal size drive shaft: 39.4 - 65 - 10

[frpe82]

Updated.

[daruu]

When installing the m90 in a 240, what kind of driveshaft (right word?) is best too use?
If i am not completely wrong you either have to shorten or lengthen it anyway(or make a spacer, which i want to avoid if possible), but what do you do with the mounting to the tunnel/floor(the one with the bearing inside the rubber thing)?
Make a new custom one?

Hopefully some of you understand what i mean, even though my writing isn't that good :)

[foggyjames]

I would either use a standard 240 item and adjust the length, or use a 7/900 series propshaft / driveshaft (yes, it's the right word :)) with this conversion: http://www.rsphysse.anu.edu.au/~amh110/centre_bearing_upgrade.htm

cheers

James

[Sander]

I made a nice comparison picture of the difference between the Redblock M90 and the Diesel M90. The one on the left is for the redblock and the one on the right is a Diesel one.

http://img257.imageshack.us/img257/5251/dsc03560k.jpg

The most obvious way to recognize a Diesel one is that it's covered in inches of greasy crap and the red and whiteblock ones aren't :-P The Diesel one also has a different driveshaft and flange. It has, just like the whiteblock M90, a round 4 bolt flange instead of a triangular shaped flange with 3 bolt holes and doesn't use a rubber hardy disk but has a normal cardan. The flanges are interchangable though. I swapped them on my M90's as I don't have a redblock varient driveshaft but do have a diesel one. It all fits and is now mounted under my car.

This is a diesel driveshaft compared to the redblock M46 one:

http://img199.imageshack.us/img199/3679/dsc03522j.jpg

[SteveMD]

Would a flat-surfaced lh2.4 dog dish flywheel work with a M90 set-up on a redblock? See this thread http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=177742

[foggyjames]

They're just taking chunks out of the sides...? Sure, that'll work. A flat flywheel with LH2.4 timing marks and a suitable clutch would work too.

cheers

James

[SteveMD]

They're just taking chunks out of the sides...? Sure, that'll work. A flat flywheel with LH2.4 timing marks and a suitable clutch would work too.

cheers

James

Yep, I like the idea of flattening the bugger as chunkifying it seems risky as John V. would point out (in length with many a 'fawk')

[foggyjames]

I'd be tempted to jump straight to a billet piece at that point. Isn't there that place that Fred got his from in Sweden that does them for quite sensible money?

cheers

James

[volvorsport]

yeah , i just need to chase him up again foggy !!

itll be a straight replacement for a dual mass flywheel with 850 r clutch for m90 cars .

[CHESH740R]

The Billet Flywheel for the whiteblocks is £250.68 Shipped within the UK.

I just enquired as my bank rang up and said you havent been buying any carparts for a few months.

I would imagine the Redblocks price isnt that far off.

[volvorsport]

really ? , thats gone up a bit .

the redblock price is a bit cheaper than that , well i suppose with shipping itll not be much cheaper than that .

[Rogue242GT]

Great write up

Many thanks to frpe82 for all his time and effort composing this article.

[15A]

How does that hook up anyway.. mine still doesnt work (we also redid the wiring but no worky)

I took the side of the reverse light harness off from the AW71 shifter and made an adapter. IIRC, it was the same plug end.

(this on a 90 765).

[Mr.Borrie]

you dont happend to have a pic of that

[15A]

you dont happend to have a pic of that

OMG no....I was just happy to get the @#!* thing in! :rofl:

But seriously.....IIRC, its either a black or white plug with 2 wires. Check out a wiring diagram and you'll see what colors to easily identify them. I was prepared to cut and splice but was happily surprised to see the AW71 and M90 both used the same plug. You did get the harness with it, yes?

[foggyjames]

I believe the wiring is the same for the M46 as for the M90...except with the two extra pins (to a) give the "3rd/4th gear engaged" signal, and b) to actuate the OD solenoid) not connected.

cheers

James

[15A]

Got a major malfunction with second gear. See here:

http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=181919

Any thoughts?

[Janspeed]

my brother and i will be doing an M90 swap on his 780. My brother did get the front section of the driveshaft from the M90-car but not the rear section. He has the IRS suspention on his 780-IRS.
Now here are my questions:
- does anybody know for a fact if the IRS drive shaft rear section will actually slide in the M90 drivehaft front section? (number of splines the same?)
- does anybody know if these 2-section driveshafts are balanced together (as an assembly) or is each section balanced solo?

[Fivehundred]

my brother and i will be doing an M90 swap on his 780. My brother did get the front section of the driveshaft from the M90-car but not the rear section. He has the IRS suspention on his 780-IRS.
Now here are my questions:
- does anybody know for a fact if the IRS drive shaft rear section will actually slide in the M90 drivehaft front section? (number of splines the same?)
- does anybody know if these 2-section driveshafts are balanced together (as an assembly) or is each section balanced solo?

I've never tried it on a 780, but I tried it with the rear half of the prop on an auto MK II Irs from a V90 and the front half from a manual M90 940 and they fit together. Remember there is a master spline, and it isn't obvious.

The balancing on these props is strange, look carefully at the flange bolts, there are several different lengths, that's how they were balanced on first assembly.

[Janspeed]

good info! Thanks!

[foggyjames]

Interesting comment about the bolt lengths...never noticed that...

cheers

James

[Janspeed]

past saturday we did the M90 swap into the 780 B204GT(no kat). Here are our findings:
- bolt lenghts: there are 2 lenghts holding the guibo between gbox and driveshaft. 6 bolts in total. the shortest 3 hold the guibo to the gbox flange.(the longer 3 don't fit between flange and M90 tailpiece.)
- both driveshaft sections have strips of material tacked on their tubes so we figured they were both balanced individually.
(this is also the case with the M46 front section, it also has separate material tacked on the tube of the driveshaft)
- master spline:female M90 driveshaft section has it, male 780 IRS driveshaft section does NOT have the master spline. yet they fit very snugly, no sloppyness, same total spline number. It just means one single male spline is not meshing any female spline. I don't think that's a problem.
- M90 is shorter and has more girth, but it fits inside the tunnel without mods.
- M90 shifter fits like it was meant to be, no mods needed
- lambda sensor does not clear the m90 so we will need to relocate that sensor.
we used: original single mass LH2.4 flywheel, 850-R frictionplate, original pressureplate, M90 throwout bearing, my'97 940 M90L gearbox + front section driveshaft, 5mm spacing rings behind clutch release arm pivot bolt, original rear section driveshaft, orginal clutch slave cilinder.

preliminary conclusion: easy swap. We still need to evaluate if the clutch actually releases and how the balance of the driveshaft is, how it feels once the car can be driven. watch this thread for a report.

[ZVOLV]

I just ordered a new pivot ball for M46 and here is what it looks like compared to the M90 pivot ball. Maybe you just need to run one of these instead of running spacers behind the M90 pivot ball....

[Janspeed]

Good find! That would have been the more elegant solution. But i'm not taking it off again. ;-)

Last Sunday we took the 780-M90 for a cruise to a Volvo tradefair (VKB). it ran flawless, perfect light clutch action, the usual smooth M90 gearchanges and i must admit somewhat to my surprise, no drivetrain vibrations at all. We tested it to about 80mph. (it's not engine revs related, it is carspeed related). We figured if it's good enough to 80mph it will be good for all speeds.
conclusion: the M90 front section driveshaft combined with the IRS rear section driveshaft is plug-'n-play! each section must have been balanced separatly.

[Asleeper]

I believe the front and rear halves of the driveshaft are seperately balanced. I haven't had any vibration issues with mine at highway speeds.

[ZVOLV]

It's been about 100 miles and so far it's wonderful!

2.4 flywheel, 850 aftermarket unsprung clutch disc, 740 pressure plate, 740 release bearing, M46 pivot pin.

Also used 850 pilot bushing from FCP.

Clutch disc was only about $80 from clutchnet. Everywhere else, including dealer, only sold complete fwd clutch kits for $300-$500.

6 m46 driveshaft bolts and nuts. All same length....not sure why above poster had probs.

Driving is so much better with 5 real gears!!! My OD would only work after 50 miles of driving and it was getting old driving to work at 4500 rpms.

Hoping mpg has gone up drastically from the prior 15mpg.

I found a cracked egr pipe and then capped of the system by installing a Miller High Life crushed bottle cap between egr flange and manifold.

Also spaced wastegate actuator with a nickel for 5psi more boost!

Rpms are about 3000 at 65 mph so a 3.3 axle might be better than the stock auto 3.73

I'm loving it so far!!!!

[Captain Bondo]

Rpms are about 3000 at 65 mph so a 3.3 axle might be better than the stock auto 3.73

I'm loving it so far!!!!

+1
I find the same thing w/ 3.73's and M90, it's not a very good diff ratio for the trans. 3.31's would be the gears to have with an M90 IMO.

[foggyjames]

Glad to hear you're getting on well with it, Zach!

3.54:1 is good too...but I agree that the 3.31 is probably best.

cheers

James

[Janspeed]

Glad to hear you're getting on well with it, Zach!

3.54:1 is good too...but I agree that the 3.31 is probably best.

cheers

James

IMO longer ratio is not always better...

i have the 3.54:1 + m90 + K-cam on my car.
The annoying thing with regard to this setup is that the revs drop to about 2000rpm when doing 100kmh/60mph and when you want to speed up again quickly you need to drop down a gear because the boost only starts to develop at 2500rpm. Really annoying when you are just cruising and not in hyper-attack mode. Pick-up below 2200rpm is just weak sauce when running a K-cam in a turbo engine. (8.7:1CR)

Conclusion:
- if you want to use a highish reving cam, take the 3.73:1.
- if you keep on using the low rev torque cams (T or M) you can use the longer ratio's without having to drop gears for decent low rev acceleration. This setup will also give you good mileage.

[foggyjames]

That's what the gearbox is for, isn't it? :-D I don't see there's any way around it. You want big power from low displacement, you're going to need the use the gearbox. If not...put a V8 in?

Having said that, Ryan's car runs an M90, a 3.54:1 axle, a K cam and a T3/T4 hybrid, and it still picks up from 60mph faster than a standard 740 Turbo. It's weak compared to pick-up from 80mph, but it's not as bad as you might expect. To be honest, I've been surprised by how good it is.

cheers

James

[rijk]

Live of a M90 can be short when you're having fun. After my conversion I didn't expect my M90L2 to give me trouble this soon (after 2k mls). Rattling noise at idle (gone when disengage clutch), short squeaking noise when I pull up and shift down from fourth to third only goes smootly with a pause in the middle. Daily driver and absolutely no abuse. Full power only in third, fourth and fifth gear. One thing is clear by now: an M90 obvious can't handle 417/485 for long.

[Captain Bondo]

Live of a M90 can be short when you're having fun. After my conversion I didn't expect my M90L2 to give me trouble this soon (after 2k mls). Rattling noise at idle (gone when disengage clutch), short squeaking noise when I pull up and without employing some force, shift down from fourth to third only goes smootly with a pause in the middle. Daily driver and absolutely no abuse. Full power only in third, fourth and fifth gear. One thing is clear by now: an M90 obvious can't handle 417/485 for long.

Did you weld the 3rd gear synchro stop ring?

The rattle might be normal - these transmissions came on cars equipped with dual mass flywheels partially to dampen that. Mine doesn't rattle w/ single mass but I have heavy fluid in it.


I put ~5000k on mine last summer with 350-380hp most of the time and it has been ok- but I think it may have developed a slight howl in 2nd gear. Next year will be a better indicator.

[rijk]

No welding yet. Box with dm flywheel (replaced by dogdish now) performed very smooth with 280/410 connected to my old B204FT. Rattle is just two weeks old.

[ZVOLV]

I also hear a rattle at idle unless I push in the clutch....

Also 3rd, 4th, and 5th are very noisy when decelerating....

Whatever, I dont really care unless it blows up.

[foggyjames]

I believe the safe limit in a 2/7/900 (i.e. that weight class) is considered to be around 400lbft, so depending on what exactly 417/485 means (bhp/lbft?) that may well be no surprise.

Ryan's gearbox became quite a bit noisier this year. It coincided with the change to a Clutchnet 4-puck sprung disc...but that might be a pure coincidence. That's with a setup making around 300lbft and 300bhp. The box has done around 300k, so it's had a fair life.

cheers

James

[J2_]

I think he means 417 bhp / 485 NM of torque...

[Captain Bondo]

I think he means 417 bhp / 485 NM of torque...

I assume so as well.

I am interested to see if mine lives any better than average with the heavy fluid in it.

[foggyjames]

I'm not too hot on doing the NM / lbft calculation in my head...so I thought 485 NM would be far too low to get 417bhp, but I just did the conversion (I make it 357 lbft), and see that my guess was wrong :rofl: That seems quite low to be causing a problem...we made 300lbft at 20psi, and we've had the car running 27psi before (which I would guestimate would push us halfway towards 357) with no issues...and that's with an early "weak" box with 300k on it. The noise I mentioned earlier...on reading it back, it sounds a little more damning for the gearbox than I think it actually is. We gained some driveline noise...from somewhere...specifically 'chatter' when getting on/off load in traffic. That could well be the clutch disc. It's quiet on-load, and under engine braking.

cheers

James

[rijk]

I'm not too hot on doing the NM / lbft calculation in my head...so I thought 485 NM would be far too low to get 417bhp, but I just did the conversion (I make it 357 lbft), and see that my guess was wrong :rofl: That seems quite low to be causing a problem...we made 300lbft at 20psi

417 hp/ 485 Nm at 12 psi on ron 95.

[foggyjames]

At 12psi...love it :-D

cheers

James

[Turbosteen]

Ok, I'll be installing the M90 soon I hope, a few questions..

- The shifter is ugly/scratched. Replacing looks difficult (there even is a special tool for it...). If I get around to changing it, can I also put an 850R shifter on?
- What about ''running in'' the new clutch and flywheel to make sure I get maximum lifespan/grip?
- What bolts should I use to mount the pp? 8.8/10.9/12.9?

Thanks!

[J2_]

You mean the shifterknob ? thats a real bitch to take off without damaging it. And yes an 850 one will work. just a pain in the ass but looks real good with a fresh shifterknob !

I don't know whats the trick with running in a clutch, I just use it regularly without doing big burnouts :-P You'll love the 850R clutch set-up

I used the bolts that I got from an old 850 flywheel. Have no idea what strength they are...

Hope you can use this info

[Turbosteen]

Yeah, I mean the shifter knob. I'll try to get some prices on new ones, or look on ebay.

In general, taking it easy with a new clutch seems the way to go then, I won't do any burnouts :grrr:

I'll just get some strong bolts and we'll see. I'll report back when the pp falls of:-P

[GrandmaSideways]

That's really good to know. Makes me feel alot better about the M90. I've heard "around 300ish" for awhile, but never heard at what power someone actually has blown one up.

[foggyjames]

We're making 300lbft of torque in a 744 with 225 rubber on the back...no problem. People blow up stock ones, but usually shifting like an ape (no offence Ozzy...we love your ape-ish ways ;)) Under load...400lbft seems to be a recurring number...obviously weight, tyre, and driving style dependent.

cheers

James

[MrT_VolvoDestroyer]

Whatever, I dont really care unless it blows up.

+1 Turbobricks ideology:cool:

[ZVOLV]

My clutch doesnt hold very well right now with a new 228mm 850 clutch disc and used 740 pressure plate. I am not sure if its just a worn out pressure plate or what.

I cant believe I overlooked the section in the first post that you can use a lighter 850 flywheel! There are two manual 850's at the yard right now. I guess I will try to run one of those flywheels and a 240mm disc and NEW pressure plate this time. I'm ghetto sometimes and ran a used one with just a 60 grit sandpaper resurface and it didnt work out too well this time. My clutch slips pretty bad if I try to drive it too hard.


+1 Turbobricks ideology:cool:

It hasnt blown up yet!

[J2_]

Count the number of holes in the redblock flywheel, and in the 850 one please....

[foggyjames]

For timing? Well an LH pattern is 60-2...

cheers

James

[ZVOLV]

Count the number of holes in the redblock flywheel, and in the 850 one please....

Please drop and engine/tranny/subframe from and 850 for me and pull the flywheel. I will then gladly count the holes for you! If its not the same as LH2.4 it wont be the end of the world since I would eventually like to install the Haltech.

[J2_]

Dude.... are you serious ???

Look at the f*ckin' pics on page 1 and tell me how you gonna mount a whiteblock flywheel to a redblock crank..

[J2_]

I cant believe I overlooked the section in the first post that you can use a lighter 850 flywheel!

This is what I was babbling about..

[ZVOLV]

Dude.... are you serious ???

Look at the f*ckin' pics on page 1 and tell me how you gonna mount a whiteblock flywheel to a redblock crank..

Didnt think they bolted up. I guess I read it wrong today. SORAY!

[JW240]

report of my 240 M90 swap:
Clutch works great, it is the dog-dish flywheel with a 940 M90 diesel kit, 260 master cylinder+pedal, 940 slave cylinder and the 940 hydraulic line with a few new bends. I might try a small teflon spacer between the slave cylinder and the clutch fork to see if it behaves any different, but it is already very good. Not much pedal effort needed.
The gearbox I have comes from a crashed 1995 model 940, it is a M90H (slightly longer 1st and 2nd gear compared to the M90L). I replaced all the gaskets and replaced the oil. No 3rd gear synchro welding, I tried to remove the shaft but it was too much work to remove it and I didn't wanted to lose any parts.

No bodywork mods needed (as expected). The gearbox is a bit close to one part of the tunnel but that is just one of the casted tabs to space out the tunnel insulation on the 9xx models that got that stuff. If it gets too close i'll grind it off.

The gearbox crossmember required some work. I used the M47 support of my 240. Just position the 240 under the car with a jack, fit gearbox mount and hold the crossmember under a set of bolt holes (the bracket is positioned 2 holes further to the front now) and eyeball where the cutout for the mount has to come. Mark it, measure twice, cut square hole. These pics show it better than i can explain.


http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/222/p8293837.jpg
Here is the crossmember with ready for the mount.

http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/2253/p8303839.jpg
With mount. I used inbus/in-hex screws to attach the mount to the x-member.

http://img168.imageshack.us/img168/8202/mainphpg2viewcoreq.jpg
How it looks, mounted. You can see 2 small holes on the underside of the x-member to access the in-hex screws.

http://img9.imageshack.us/img9/2435/p9123814.jpg
The shift linkage. I shortened the aluminium piece ~100 mm, the steel shift rod 100 mm too.
For the little shifter support on the left I cut up the little bracket and welded it to a plate that was narrow enough to fit over the 2 mounting holes in the tunnel. The 240 has 4 M6 threaded holes around the shifter. The rear 2 are used for this bracket now.
Because the tunnel of the 240 is pretty narrow you need to install the pin on the right before the transmission is in place. With the engine in the mounts, cylinder head resting against firewall, you can barely squeeze the pin in place.

http://img402.imageshack.us/img402/2774/p9123816.jpg
On top of the tunnel, I used the rubber bellows that came with the 940. The upper and lower bellow fit great in the 240 carpet. The steel plate you see is also from the 940. The 2 little studs on the left are the protruding screws to mount the shifter support. 2 holes drilled in the steel frame to hold it in place and a bit of hammering to massage the steel plate over the 240 tunnel. Use some zipties to hold the leather shifter cover down.
Watch out with the hammer so close to the head unit, a hammer is attracted to expensive stuff.
No bodywork mods here, not even an extra hole drilled.


Driveshaft: I used the rear piece of my 240 since that is very thick. The front piece came from a 700/900 series with M47. I had the front piece shortened 30-35 mm and balanced together with the rear 240 section. A 700/900 series support bearing was used too. I'll double check the length of the driveshaft for people who want to do this swap in the future.

How it looks in the car:
http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/2950/p9133823.jpg
The shifter fits in perfectly.

I only drove the 240 for 4 km since this swap, still have to finish some stuff like the exhaust, some interior stuff etc. The short test drive showed that everything is working great, no noises, no odd vibrations, all gears work. A very nice upgrade.

[Janspeed]

congratulations on reaching M90-nirvana! ;-)

[foggyjames]

Cool. I know a few people have been waiting for a write-up like this :)

cheers

James

[beavy69]

What a great thread! Having read almost all of it I've just acquired an M90L2 thats done 80,000 miles!! Real pleased about that.

Couple of questions:
1) I have the bracket and cross-member but can I use my M46 gear linkage and stick or do I need the 940 one?

2) Being as I have the M90L2 that has the up-rated synchros do I no longer need to do the whole welding job?

3) In fitting it to a manual 740 using option 1, does the pressure plate have to be the Sachs one or can it simply be a complete any-brand clutch kit (pressure plate, disc and release bearing) for a 940TDi? And do I need the 940TDi release bearing included or can the 740/M46 one be used?

The L2 has the highest gear of the M90 boxes you know... 0.7 on the L2 instead of the H and L which has 0.81

I chose the L2 because it has a better spacing between gears, and therefore you can also choose a different rear end ratio to get you both acceleration and good economy.

Which dif ratio do you use then? I have a 1041 locker with the same ratio as my stock diff did, 3:54 iirc

[foggyjames]

You need the 940 linkage. The cross-member is the same as the M46.

How much torque are you planning to make? As long as you don't drive like an ape (at which point it's potentially not safe with standard power), you should be fine up to 400lbft or so. There's a degree of debate about whether L2 are actually any stronger than the other late-model boxes...or if they just got that reputation because quite a few late-model boxes *are* L2s.

Yeah, it can be any brand, as long as it's for a 940 TDI *with an M90*. The problem comes with mixing and matching bits. We had a genuine M90 disc refuse to fit under a pattern turbo pressure plate. I'm not sure about the release bearing, off the top of my head.

The reason L2s are so popular in the states is that their taller 5th gear goes well with auto diffs, and so many US-spec cars are autos. Combining an L2 with a 3.54 rear end will give you a nice cruiser, but you might find yourself having to drop into fourth on steeper motorway hills. Ryan's normal M90L is good for 165mph (where it hits the 6500rpm limiter) with a 3.54 rear end, so an L2 will give you a pretty serious theoretical top speed.

cheers

James

[beavy69]

Thanks James, I'll have to get hold of the linkage and shifter then, ooops!

400lb p.ft is 542NM. The option 1 clutch is said to be good for 400NM so I'll stick with that setup for now. I'm looking to do some more serious mods in about a years time having saved up so I might as well weld the box at that time when changing the clutch option to suit more power.

Top speed ("where permitted") will be interesting to find out then!

[beavy69]

I just ordered a new pivot ball for M46 and here is what it looks like compared to the M90 pivot ball. Maybe you just need to run one of these instead of running spacers behind the M90 pivot ball....

did you use your m46 pivot ball in the end with no need for spacers?

And does anyone know if I'll need the 940 TDi clutch release bearing or can I use my old
m46/740 one? I'm having trouble finding a kit with one for hydrawlic clutch systems!

[ZVOLV]

did you use your m46 pivot ball in the end with no need for spacers?

And does anyone know if I'll need the 940 TDi clutch release bearing or can I use my old
m46/740 one? I'm having trouble finding a kit with one for hydrawlic clutch systems!

I used the M46 pivot ball. I do get some clutch chatter when stoppped sometimes that I can get to go away by pushing in the clutch. I am also getting a sqeaking when the clutch engages now. I also have a LOT of clutch slip when racing. 3rd gear becomes totally useless after the clutch gets too hot.

Im running an non-resurfaced flywheel, a $70 clutchnet 850 clutch disc, and a used 740 pressure plate.

Im not sure what has caused my issues, but I am learning by trial and error. I am going to try a new stronger pressure plate and clutch disc and see how it works out.

[beavy69]

I would hazzard a guess it's your pressure plate, its part of the reason im doing and going for the diesel 940 (option 1), before doing any further mods as I believe the 740 clutch isn't that strong, my standard m46/740 combo is slipping in 3rd having upped the stock boost to just 10psi and now in 2nd at 14psi. (however its most likely worn as well)

[Mr.Borrie]

My M46 broke with 10PSI too

[foggyjames]

I have a feeling the diesel and turbo pressure plates are very similar, if not the same...

A fresh M46 turbo clutch should be good to about 15psi (240lbft or so in a typical application?), I'd have said. Fresh being the operative word!

cheers

James

[wooble]

Excellent writeup, I've just won an M90 complete with driveshaft, crossmember and the stick/linkages on ebay for 99 quid so I'll be following the guide fairly soon!

Seeing as the shift linkage needs shortened anyway, did you consider adding in a threaded adjuster to fine tune the lever position? seems like an error of a few mm either way could have the stick position a bit messed up in the forward/back dimension.

[Turbosteen]

My M46 broke with 10PSI too

:rofl:

You do have to wait with applying power until you are IN gear:-P

M46 is a good gearbox:nod: But I'm going for the M90 as well off course, just because I can

[JW240]

Excellent writeup, I've just won an M90 complete with driveshaft, crossmember and the stick/linkages on ebay for 99 quid so I'll be following the guide fairly soon!

Seeing as the shift linkage needs shortened anyway, did you consider adding in a threaded adjuster to fine tune the lever position? seems like an error of a few mm either way could have the stick position a bit messed up in the forward/back dimension.

Yeah I thought about a adjuster in the linkage, but decided against it because the adjuster could loosen over time (and I ran out of time hehe). The shifter in my 240 is a little bit more to the left, but thats no problem. I had some leftover 12mm? hydraulic pipe that I pressed in the shift linkage pipe so the 2 halves were joined and test fitted that before welding.

One boss for a bolt is very close to the transmission tunnel (on intake side of engine). Best to grind it down a bit. No pics of that point now though, will take one. With the transmission fitted it is nearly impossible to dent the transmission tunnel properly to gain some extra space there. 5 mm more room and it wont hit.

Right now I am chasing down a small issue with the engine mounts, the rear mount doesnt seem to cope well with loads in the front-rear direction. because the 240's engine mounts are angled the engine slides a bit towards the firewall, just a little distance but enough to see it when you look at the mounts. I already shimmed the transmission mount bracket slightly (the 4 M10 bolts at the back of the M90, in the direction of the driveshaft) but that didn't help yet.

Just some minor issues to fix :-P

[J2_]

M46's are pieces of sh*t. not worth anything in my humble opinion.

[jonah]

Right now I am chasing down a small issue with the engine mounts, the rear mount doesnt seem to cope well with loads in the front-rear direction. because the 240's engine mounts are angled the engine slides a bit towards the firewall, just a little distance but enough to see it when you look at the mounts. I already shimmed the transmission mount bracket slightly (the 4 M10 bolts at the back of the M90, in the direction of the driveshaft) but that didn't help yet.I hope you find a solution so I know what to do when I fit mine! :-P

[Captain Bondo]

As long as you shorten the shift rod and the aluminum link the same amount, it won't screw up the shifter angle.

You should also draw a line down the length the of shift rod so that the yoke on each end are "clocked" correctly relative to each other. This keeps the shifter from ending up too far left or right.

I did this for the mount on mine, it allows the use of an M46 style mount on the M46 cross member:
http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll214/WatsonFab/misc%20car/DSC01816.jpg

[wooble]

That's also cool, I like not having to cut up the crossmenber, added bonus is I can get m46/ 7 mounts in poly but not M90.

Don't suppose you could post up a diagram with dimensions on it?

[foggyjames]

You mean you can get M46/7 mounts for a 240 in poly, right? Because M46 and M90 mounts for a 7/900 are identical...just to be clear for anyone else reading this :)

cheers

James

[wooble]

Yeah, that's what I meant. Didn't know the gearbox mounts for the 940 were the same, knowledge++!

[foggyjames]

You should have seen the look on my face the first time I looked at an M46 crossmember, and realised the first few M90 kits which got shipped out to the US ("yeah man, it includes the M90 crossmember!!") would have arrived with the recipient thinking "what a retard" :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

cheers

James

[jonah]

Don't suppose you could post up a diagram with dimensions on it?+1.
Or, do you have another picture of it mounted on the crossmember? I haven't seen a 240 M46 crossmember and I can't visualize how that fits! :oops:

[Captain Bondo]

I'll take some pictures - easy to do since it's all out of the car right now. I can bolt up the crossmember so you can see how it works.

I would not trust the actual dimensions, though. My M90 is behind a whiteblock in my 240, so it is probably not quite in the same position as a redblock one. My guess is it's probably an inch or so further rearward in my case...

[wooble]

Ok, sounds cool. I think you might be onto something though, it can't be too hard to make up a bracket from some spare angle iron to adapt the m90 to the 240 crossmember.

[beavy69]

Following on from last post I have been looking for a 940 TDi clutch. I have found kits available that are M90 specific and that include the pressure plate, disc and bearing but they all say they are all cable clutch operated. Does this not matter or do I need to find a hydraulic clutch specific kit to unite the M90 with my 740 T block?

[volvomaniac]

Is Castrol SMX-S (75w85, full synt.) the correct oil for a M90 gearboxes? I have to change oil very soon, so i`m begging for answer as soon as possible! Can`t buy here original Volvo trans. oil, so I believe that Castrol is the right choise...

[foggyjames]

As far as I'm aware, they're all hydraulic. I think that might be a clutch re-seller sucking at teh internet.

I don't think Volvo publish the specs on the oil, so it's hard to say.

cheers

James

[wooble]

Another thing, I couldn't find an answer to this earlier in the thread, for us RHD chaps who already have a hydraulic clutch setup, is it as simple as disconnecting the clutch flexi from the old slave cyl. and attaching it to the m90 one, or do I need to change the Master cyl. and flexi to get it to work?

[foggyjames]

Straight swap for the slave cylinders. :)

cheers

James

[jonah]

I'll take some pictures - easy to do since it's all out of the car right now. I can bolt up the crossmember so you can see how it works.Did you take any pics Captain?

[beavy69]

As far as I'm aware, they're all hydraulic. I think that might be a clutch re-seller sucking at teh internet.

I don't think Volvo publish the specs on the oil, so it's hard to say.

cheers

James

Would it matter anyway, are hyraulic and cable release bearings different? I've never done a clutch before so don't know.

[foggyjames]

There's no reason for the clutch itself to be different - 360s (with a cable clutch) can use a 740 (hydraulic) pressure plate (for an M4x car), no problem.

The bearing is much more likely to be different, but that's to do with the shape of the opening in the fork, and the geometry of the whole arrangement. I'm sure it's possible to engineer the fork arrangement such that you can use the same bearing, but that might not always happen. I've not checked, but it's perfectly possible that a 360 bearing and a 740 bearing are the same.

Worst case scenario? You have to buy a different bearing. Personally, I think it's BS from the parts suppliers. Remind me to check on Vadis for 940 TDI M90 cars with cable clutches when I get home!

cheers

James

[Captain Bondo]

Here are some pics of the bracket, finally:

http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll214/WatsonFab/m90%20teardown/P4190610.jpg

In the car:

http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll214/WatsonFab/m90%20teardown/P4200611.jpg

[foggyjames]

Thanks Kenny. Having looked at a 240 transmission crossmember for the first time last weekend, that now makes perfect sense!

cheers

James

[Turbosteen]

That's the perfect solution, you used a 240 motormount?

[Captain Bondo]

That's the perfect solution, you used a 240 motormount?

Thanks!
Yeah I think so, it's either a 240 straight motor mount or a round style M46 transmission mount, I can't remember, it was just whatever I had laying around. :lol:

[volvo78244]

I installed the M90 I had laying around for a few years, it was suppossed to be in my 960 sedan but never made it there.

It almost took me a whole day of work (including cleaning some parts and searching for needed parts I misplaced, and other people keeping of my work)
All went pretty well and no adjustments had to be made. I only had to customize the exhaust support. I took the effort in replacing oil, flushing it twice (first flush was so nasty I had to do it again) and replacing seals and using the newer reverse sensor.

It now is much nicer to drive, M46 FTL. It really is worth it!!!

[Benzine]

I'm using an M90 in my kit car. I'm using a non volvo m/c and I'm having trouble getting the clutch to work properly. Basically I have to have my foot right to the floor and then I can just about change gear, but it's hard. As i know flip all about hydraulic clutches, could this be a problem with the m/c not being big enough or a problem with the slave cylinder? It's a 3/4" m/c, I don't know what the m/c that came with the 960 was. There's no leaking fluid anywhere. I'm using an 850 clutch & flywheel. This is the kind of m/c i'm using, the .75 one (http://www2.obp.uk.net/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=84&osCsid=63cab2d63b3c4db6eacb4c01f6a26c03)

Any ideas on what I can do. FANX

[Turbosteen]

Really sure all the air is out of the system?

[Captain Bondo]

With a brand new clutch using a 740 turbo slave cylinder, mine likes a spacer between the end of the slave and the clutch fork.

Basically it's a socket head capscrew (allen head bolt). the tip of the slave sits in the head of the bolt, the bolt goes through the clutch fork and a nut holds it on the back side of the fork. Basically spaces the clutch fork about 15mm closer to the slave.

Without this, my slave tries to overextend. This might be a function of the R clutch or the fork being bent or the m46 slave not being the same length though. :rofl:

[Benzine]

With a brand new clutch using a 740 turbo slave cylinder, mine likes a spacer between the end of the slave and the clutch fork.

Basically it's a socket head capscrew (allen head bolt). the tip of the slave sits in the head of the bolt, the bolt goes through the clutch fork and a nut holds it on the back side of the fork. Basically spaces the clutch fork about 15mm closer to the slave.

I just bunged a couple of washers between the clutch fork and slave and it now works brilliantly :) The washers were to see if it worked, your bolt idea sounds good for a permanent fix though! ^___^ You win @ life.

[Captain Bondo]

Excellent! I think with a new clutch, if all of the other components are not brand new as well, the slave just can't always quite extend far enough.

I've seen it on 740 turbos with all stock components too.

[volvo78244]

After changing from M46 to M90 I'm experiencing a few issues.

All gears work fine, except for third gear, gets in pretty easy but pops out just as easy.
As long as I keep my foot on the throttle no problem, but when I get it off it pops out of gear. I can also feel that when standing still (engine shut off) it doesn't stay in gear and gets back to neutral.

Does anyone know if this can be fixed easily or is my gearbox shot? I really hope not.

Thanks for the help.

[El~Zilcho]

I'm swapping the M90 and the B230 it was born with into an Amazon so it will be going in with the engine 'upright', is this a problem for the M90?

Sorry if this question's a repost, I tried to read the whole thread to make sure it wasn't but there's so much information here my face is twitching.

I haven't found a really good thread on what's to be expected with this engine&box swap so I'll make a photo-heavy one when I'm done. Are there any questions I should be asking apart from running the M90 de-leaned?

[Mr.Borrie]

pretty sure you wont get away with that maybe with the transmission tunnel from a 144

[El~Zilcho]

maybe with the transmission tunnel from a 144

Making it fit won't be a problem, I want to be sure that using the M90 upright isn't a problem for it, that it won't break, that the gear shifting won't be impossible etc.

Thanks for the 144 tunnel idea though, I hadn't thought of a transplant.

[Fivehundred]

Making it fit won't be a problem, I want to be sure that using the M90 upright isn't a problem for it, that it won't break, that the gear shifting won't be impossible etc.

Thanks for the 144 tunnel idea though, I hadn't thought of a transplant.

Unless you alter the gear linkage it will end up crooked. As to what it will do to the lubrication......

[Captain Bondo]

Unless you alter the gear linkage it will end up crooked. As to what it will do to the lubrication......

Gear linkage is dead easy. You'll need to shorten it about 90mm anyways. You would just clock the shift rod over and weld the aluminum bit on "reclocked" as well.

Lube wouldn't be a problem once it's in but filling it might be tricky, I'm not sure.

[El~Zilcho]

Thanks Captain! You sound confident about that so I'll take your word for it :)

[Captain Bondo]

No prob.

I feel confident that works. My m90 is not tilted as much as yours will be, but it's still about 10 degrees tilted. It's installed in a 240 so I know the drill on the linkage modification.

These transmissions are lubed by the gears slinging oil all over. No sump or oil pickup or whatever. The gears will sling oil all over pretty much regardless of orientation. I've had my M90 fully disassembled multiple times, so this info is first-hand. :cheers:

[volvo78244]

After changing from M46 to M90 I'm experiencing a few issues.

All gears work fine, except for third gear, gets in pretty easy but pops out just as easy.
As long as I keep my foot on the throttle no problem, but when I get it off it pops out of gear. I can also feel that when standing still (engine shut off) it doesn't stay in gear and gets back to neutral.

Does anyone know if this can be fixed easily or is my gearbox shot? I really hope not.

Thanks for the help.

Have you removed the bolt just visible here (far left, close to the shift rod):
It holds the spring that pushes a ball bearing onto the grooves of the shift rod. That can cause some resistance. I forgot to remove it at first and it gave a slight resistance.


Being the fool that I am, I took the gearbox apart and forgot to reinstall the above mentioned ball, spring and bolt. Then again being as smart as I am, I somehow suddenly remember JW talking about it in this thread and my problem is solved :hyper:

Since I already bought a parts car I now have a spare M90 :-)

[JW240]

Being the fool that I am, I took the gearbox apart and forgot to reinstall the above mentioned ball, spring and bolt. Then again being as smart as I am, I somehow suddenly remember JW talking about it in this thread and my problem is solved :hyper:

Since I already bought a parts car I now have a spare M90 :-)

NICE! Good to hear that it was a simple fix! :)

[ZVOLV]

I'm about to reinstall mine. I have a new set of seals/gaskets for it. Just wondering if there are any special tools or methods needed to get them installed.

[volvo78244]

I didn't have to use any special tools or technics to install the new seals.
I put on my other gearbox today because my underdrive pulley is broken and I took out the gearbox to be able to get it off. I think the one with the new seals was leaking.

[vanapeer]

Would someone please explain differences between M90 and M47 hydraulic clutch release forks.

I have fork that came with M90 but I have reasons to doubt it is M47 and since you cannot stress enough that only M90 fork must be used, I would need some explanation.
And don't only tell difference is in hole because it could have been made by fitter in order to make the slave cyl adjustable.
http://media.skandix.de/pimg/1007928.jpghttp://media.skandix.de/pimg/1007927.jpg

[ZVOLV]

M90 fork is pretty short. Maybe 20cm? The M46/47 fork is much longer.

[foggyjames]

I've only ever seen the plastic ball cup on an M90 fork, but that's not definitive...and those pics appear to show the plastic cup on what I assume are both types.

We ran an M46 fork for a while by accident. It worked, but the pedal was horribly heavy.

cheers

James

[vanapeer]

What's the code for seal where gear selector goes into M90? Seems same size as M46 but cannot be found on any Vadis drawing.

[Turbosteen]

Seems same size as M46 but cannot be found on any Vadis drawing.

Correct, M46 seal can be used

[beavy69]

Please have a look here: http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=214668 should you be looking for an M90 as I'm selling one on ebay (UK). Its the M90L2, has done around 88,000 miles, starting bid is £130.00 with a reserve.

Regards,

Tim.

[vanapeer]

I just finished my install into 245.
I had 2 forks, one with hole and another without. And this was their only difference. Length, brearing mating, pivoting place: all same. They can differ only in pivoting as M90 should have that plastic bushing. Can that bring horrible clutching that people have reported before? IMHO not, unless there is third hyraulic fork type. I used the one with hole and made slave cyl adjustable with threaded bar and nyloc nut.

I went for the M47 modified mount as most usual here in TB and here (http://translate.google.com/translate?js=y&prev=_t&hl=et&ie=UTF-8&layout=1&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fsvenskavolvo240klubben.se%2Fforum%2 Fviewtopic.php%3Ft%3D7128&sl=auto&tl=en&act=url), although I would have liked the capt. Bondo style. Then again now - after seeing I how steady the setup with M90 gearbox mount is - I am happy. M46 moved and rotated much more with its originial rubber mount. It seemed reasonable to lower the gearbox more than others have done here and I used aluminium spacers found on AW70. With that height it seems that two pieces of propshaft are coincident.

Propshaft came from 940 M47 with its original center support. I will have to take this picture to show my setup there but basically welded 940 support with its piece of sheetmetal to 200 bracket. And bracket is in original 200 place..

Tunnel got quite a lot of smacking. Sadly the place where it needed it most - upper left side of gearbox, where a bolt protrudes - was too strong for our hammer. It has about 5mm on spacing now but as gearbox is almost not moving at all, so it seems OK.

Pedals. The distance between original, cable and new, master cylinder fixing is 10mm. It came as surprise that I needed to mount pedal to higer, luckily existing holes. I didn't like the idea of removing the whole pedal box and manged to take the clutch axle bolt out and put into new place while all the rack was in the car. Needed quite a lot of luck and patience but it was the only way for me as I hate dismantling things that are not directly under work. Clutch pedal is now some 7cm higher as the new placement came as surprise and we didn't have MIG at hand. Lets see if i get used to that.
Also you need different spring. Original hydraulic looks like this (http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=204033) but as this came as surprise we modifid original: reversed it to be pushing upward and bent the ends when red hot.

Its fun to do this kind of tuning on volvos because so many things fit between generations of cars. I used 200 gear stick because I like it more. All bushigs below and in the midde are the same. Its good idea to remove the rear gear slider "button" so that muscle memory woudn't use 1st gear instead of rear.
Then again I feel sorry for volvo engineers who were not allowed to change 20-30-40 year old designs.

My clutch: Sachs 940 TD pressure plate + new NK disk that got new Ferodo linings that were told to be better biting. We'll see about that. M90 thrust bearing. Its mating area is different than M47 bearing but again: side by side to M47 bearing/fork did not show difference in height. My hands were too dirty to handle camera. Anybody can confirm that?

Replaced all seals and oil but the info about the gear selector seal came too late.
Also 3rd gear was left original. Lets see if it breaks.
All new cyl's boots.

Also flexible hose is yet to added to clutch hydraulics.

I am surprised how loud it clicks when changing beween gears. Is it my imagination that it should click less than M46?

But basically it seems to be success and lots of building fun.

[Janspeed]

the stock shifter gave very slick shift without any noticeable clicks
since i installed the avalange short throw speedshifter it is more of a clicking action. Still smooth though

[vanapeer]

Ayee I used my old short shifter from M46 which is some 1cm lengthened.

Did anyone start the engine when M90 installed but propshaft not? 1 and 2 were quiet, in third you can hear some and 4 made quite loud rattle. I take its normal domino effect of gears when they have no load.

Today had a longer testdrive. Damn. Something's grinding.

[mark244turbo]

For all the people in Holland who want to put a M90 in a 240/260.

http://volvolvo.nl/forum/topic,3714.0/

[volvalover]

I'm using an M90 in my kit car. I'm using a non volvo m/c and I'm having trouble getting the clutch to work properly. Basically I have to have my foot right to the floor and then I can just about change gear, but it's hard. As i know flip all about hydraulic clutches, could this be a problem with the m/c not being big enough or a problem with the slave cylinder? It's a 3/4" m/c, I don't know what the m/c that came with the 960 was. There's no leaking fluid anywhere. I'm using an 850 clutch & flywheel. This is the kind of m/c i'm using, the .75 one (http://www2.obp.uk.net/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=84&osCsid=63cab2d63b3c4db6eacb4c01f6a26c03)

Any ideas on what I can do. FANX

is the master cyl. adjustable if so start with that before ya go adding shims

[Cojones]

John did a small run - 3 pieces i think - of M90 short throw shifters. I just installed and tried it, and damn I like it. It has nothing to do with the M46 the car once came out of the factory with. It kind of reminds me of an MX5 i once drove. Clean, crisp, short throws. It does require some more force to shift gear compared to the original M90 shifter, but it's worth the extra effort.

[Captain Bondo]

is the master cyl. adjustable if so start with that before ya go adding shims

Absolutely right. The clevis on the master is adjustable, and will most likely need to be adjusted.

This threads remonds me I need to hit up John about a short shifter, or even just the bushings.

[pwaes]

Did some thinking. (Ouch... that hurt )

Why not use an 850r clutch disc and pressure plate (240mm) and the stock dogdish (m4*) flywheel, machine flatten the dogdish flywheel and drill & tap 6 holes for the m8 screws? Then you have the dogdish with the 60-2 pattern for LH and a 850r clutch setup (240mm) for more clamping pressure? Do I need to make any modifications on the clutch fork ? Any thoughts about the height of the setup?

[Turbosteen]

I wouldn't spend my money on having someone machining the stock flywheel, waste of money imho, and the result is to risky I think.

The TTV billet flywheel I have in the 760 is unbeatable in price/quality. I bet you that adapting the volvo dogdish is already pretty expensive and time consuming anyway.

[pwaes]

I wouldn't spend my money on having someone machining the stock flywheel, waste of money imho, and the result is to risky I think.

The TTV billet flywheel I have in the 760 is unbeatable in price/quality. I bet you that adapting the volvo dogdish is already pretty expensive and time consuming anyway.

OK, did a little searching:

B230 Red Block 850R 'Lite'

Lightweight billet steel
Single piece design integral teeth
Suits standard 850R diameter clutch
Dynamically balanced
Weight: XXKg
Part number: 1090

Stockist: info@ttvracing.com

Is this the one you have?

[Turbosteen]

Is this the one you have?

Looks like the right one, don't know what part number it was but the description fits what I have (B230 + 850R PP)

see this post http://forums.turbobricks.com/showpost.php?p=3259490&postcount=227

Looks a million times better than the volvo flywheel:cool:
http://i284.photobucket.com/albums/ll6/Project_82/M90/P7154245.jpg

[foggyjames]

I don't think what you're suggesting would work anyway - I think the timing pattern is in the 'dished' section, so removing that to make a flat mating surface would remove the timing marks, or at least the bulk of them. I suspect that the mating surface on the TTV flywheel is actually further back than on the dished one...i.e. it's thicker as far as the mating surface, but without the dished section.

cheers

James

[Wagner]

I don't think what you're suggesting would work anyway - I think the timing pattern is in the 'dished' section, so removing that to make a flat mating surface would remove the timing marks, or at least the bulk of them. I suspect that the mating surface on the TTV flywheel is actually further back than on the dished one...i.e. it's thicker as far as the mating surface, but without the dished section.<br />
<br />
cheers<br />
<br />
James<br />


The trigger pattern is not on the dish section, but behind it.

<img width=500 height=300 src="http://static.petrisimolin.com/gallery/data/images/%A4Offi-Osku%A4-03072007585.jpg" border="0" alt="" /><br />
<br />

[foggyjames]

I take it all back :) I've been looking at them recently (swapping a B200 in a 360 on Renix with a 44-4 or similar pattern to a B230FT on LH2.4), but my mind must have been playing tricks! :rofl:

cheers

James

[volvoz2000]

Hi All,

the pics are missing at the sart of this topic in the instructions for welding up third gear synchro on M90, does anybody have another link or can repost pictures etc.....?

thanks

[katluke]

Hi All,

the pics are missing at the sart of this topic in the instructions for welding up third gear synchro on M90, does anybody have another link or can repost pictures etc.....?

thanks

+ 1 :)

[Rust Reaper]

+ 1 :)

+2 The original pics would be a great help, as well as preserving the purpose of the post; people not asking random M90 questions when "it's been covered on this board in great depth"

[Captain Bondo]

I have this picture from when I did it. It's pretty much all you need. It doesn't make much sense out of context but once you pull the tailshaft housing off the trans it will. :):

http://www.pbase.com/capnbondo/image/83650105/large.jpg

The only tricky part is you need a good 2 jaw puller to get the 4th gear assembly off.

[jonah]

I'm just putting some new input and output seals in my M90 and decided to change the selector shaft seal too, but, I couldn't get it out, and as I didn't want to damage anything I decided to take the back cover off to make it easy.

So, can anyone recommend what sealant I should use to seal the two halves together again? And, what is the torque figure for the rear flange nut? Apologies if this has been covered somewhere in this thread.

[Captain Bondo]

I'm just putting some new input and output seals in my M90 and decided to change the selector shaft seal too, but, I couldn't get it out, and as I didn't want to damage anything I decided to take the back cover off to make it easy.

So, can anyone recommend what sealant I should use to seal the two halves together again? And, what is the torque figure for the rear flange nut? Apologies if this has been covered somewhere in this thread.

Reseal with anaerobic sealer. Dunno abut the flange - I would just put some loctite on it and crank it down. I would always just rattle it down with an impact.

[Homer]

Rear flange nut is 115 ft/lbs based on the green/blue manual. (Or thereabouts, I don't have the manual in front of me)

[jonah]

Thank you gentlemen. :)

[luyopadre]

hello, would somebody tell me why am I not able to see the pics about the welding of the M90 3rd syncro. I need to do it these days and I remember that there were also pics on the first page where the details are. But now I see only text without pics.

thx,

[Captain Bondo]

apparently pbase killed my account. Nice.

[Wagner]

Here is a page from Bilport magazine from the year 2001 showing the ring you need to weld.

http://www.pukema.com/bilsport/container13-3.jpg

[luyopadre]

thx, could you give me any more details, how to weld it, and if possible pictures, I'm not so familiar with swedish :).

[wooble]

Whoo, finally got round to installing the M90 in my 245 this weekend. It's only been sitting in the shed for 2 years. The box itself fits fine in the tunnel, no hammering required. I used the standard dog-dish flywheel and diesel clutch setup. LuK 623224000 has all the parts in one box, and they're actually Sachs branded parts in an LuK box.

The clutch pivot was spaced out 4mm with washers. The clutch bite is about 30% of the pedal's travel off the floor, which is just where I like it. It's a very light and smooth action, definitely an improvement over the M47, but that could just be due to everything being taken apart, cleaned and greased for the first time in 20 years and 150k miles. I'm using the standard 240 clutch hydraulics, all the way from the pedal to the slave cylinder. The 240 slave works perfectly with the M90.

The shift linkage and the arm that holds the shifter were shortened 100mm and welded, and a short shift kit from Craving Boost was installed. The top arm that holds the shifter also had to have the rear locating pin cut down to fit in the tunnel, and the bracket it locates in was cut down and re-drilled to be bolted to the existing captive nuts in the 240 tunnel. Shift feel is good, but there's a bit more side-to-side slop in the shifter than I'd like, it's actually got the same amount of slop as the 150k M47 I pulled out. I'm not sure what I can do about that as it appears to be in the actual box rather than the linkage, but we'll see.

The rear mount was custom-made for me by Peter of www.retroturbo.com (goes by 'silveruser' on here) in the same style as the Captain Bondo rear mount seen previously in this thread, it uses a standard M47 rubber mount and crossmember. He also made me a custom driveshaft spacer which lets the M47 driveshaft bolt up to the M90, and modified the M90 shifter to accept a standard M10 threaded gearknob as I didn't like the M90 knob.

The only other modification required was the bracket for the front exhaust hanger which is held on by the bellhousing bolts. It doesn't fit the M90 as is, 10 minutes love with hacksaw and file had it fitting fine.

Now I am going to crack a beer and wonder when I am going to stop hurting from wrestling the damn box up into the car while laying flat on my back on a brick driveway.

[Captain Bondo]

thx, could you give me any more details, how to weld it, and if possible pictures, I'm not so familiar with swedish :).

Have a look at the picture that says "svetsanvisning" under it. You tack weld the ring to the top of each gear tooth, exactly at the point the white pen is pointing at in that picture. That's all there is to it.

[Ben960]

Hi, I am currently trying to save my 960 as the dual mass flywheel has failed & Volvo are not making replacements anymore. I have been trying to find detailed instructions for fitting an 850 T5 flywheel & clutch to my 1996 960 with a whiteblock 6 cylinder engine & found this forum thread, has anyone here done this conversion?
Will I need to put washers behind the pivot ball & extend clutch slave rod?
Do I need to use the release bearing from the 850 T5 clutch or the one from the 960?
Is there anything else I should know before I give it a try?

Any help on this will be most appreciated.

[Captain Bondo]

Hi, I am currently trying to save my 960 as the dual mass flywheel has failed & Volvo are not making replacements anymore. I have been trying to find detailed instructions for fitting an 850 T5 flywheel & clutch to my 1996 960 with a whiteblock 6 cylinder engine & found this forum thread, has anyone here done this conversion?
Will I need to put washers behind the pivot ball & extend clutch slave rod?
Do I need to use the release bearing from the 850 T5 clutch or the one from the 960?
Is there anything else I should know before I give it a try?

Any help on this will be most appreciated.

Use the 850 release bearing. You may need to rig up a spacer for the slave pushrod/fork but that's a minor detail overall.

Other than that it'll work fine. The only other thing to confirm is that the single mass flywheel does note require shorter bolts than the dual mass (for attachment to the crankshaft).

Also you may need to swap the wires on the crank sensor if you get a flywheel with "dimples" instead of "teeth".

[Ben960]

Use the 850 release bearing. You may need to rig up a spacer for the slave pushrod/fork but that's a minor detail overall.

Other than that it'll work fine. The only other thing to confirm is that the single mass flywheel does note require shorter bolts than the dual mass (for attachment to the crankshaft).

Also you may need to swap the wires on the crank sensor if you get a flywheel with "dimples" instead of "teeth".

Thanks for the advice, I have a flywheel already I may have imagined it but I think it has two rows of teeth around the outside, would the inner row be the trigger for the crankshaft if not where exactly should I look?

[RoadZombie]

Hello from germany
can anyone say me wich type of m90 i have when 10236508 is stamped on it?
I have found that it will be a m90h, is that correct?

And who can say me which clutch setup i can choose for 350-400hp?

Thanks alot!!

[MCRAZER]

Hello,

I got a whiteblock b6304fs (from a 960 '94 with auto tranny) that I want to put in my 244. Now I want to use the M90 on the block but it uses the motronic 1.8. So I'm not sure of the 850/S70/V70 flat flywheel will work. Any solutions on that plz.

Grtz Mathew

[RoadZombie]

No one has an idea which clutch setup?
Things has changend i need a clutch setup for 500hp now(16VT build soon).

Greetings

[Captain Bondo]

I used a sachs 707 and a southbend heavy duty organic disc. It held 540whp and 470wtq. It had a progressive engagement which was quite good but it did chatter.

I would buy and 850r clutch kit just for the disc and install it in a 707 pressure plate. I think for 500hp and 450ftlb it'd do the job and drive almost like stock.

Not sure how many responses you'll get, I'm not aware of any other folks who post here with any regularity other than myself who have done 500+hp m90 setups. :)

[RoadZombie]

That helps alot! Thank's alot!

Is there any machine work to do on the flywheel to fit the 850R+707 clutch combo?

Greetings from germany

[DennisvdB]

I have a TTV lightened flywheel specially made for use of a 850R clutch.

http://www.ttvracing.com/Volvoflywheel.html
Partnumber 1090

[RoadZombie]

okay good infos! Thanks!

can anyone show me which modifications i can do on the 3rd gear?
i have read that some people weld it on the shaft for more strength or anything like that.

Has anyone pictures of that?

Greetings

[mark244turbo]

Take a look at this: http://www.pukema.com/bilsport/container13-3.html

And this: http://forums.turbobricks.com/showpost.php?p=1048135

http://personal.inet.fi/koti/wagner/kuva01_m90.jpg

And this: http://forums.turbobricks.com/showpost.php?p=878403&postcount=10

http://personal.inet.fi/koti/wagner/m90akseli.jpg

[RoadZombie]

My clutch blowed up yesterday:(
My M90 will go in my 740 in a few weeks and i only must know if the 707 pressure plate bolts right up on my flywheel.

@Captain Bondo
can you say me if that pressure plate is plug and play?
What i have read is that it is from an audi so it is not p&p?
What must i modify?

Thanks and Greetings!

[enrgy]

I have a quick question that i can't find answer through search. I think I know the answer but just want to double check. Is M90 diesel gearbox interchangeable with older diesel gearboxes? The main thing I want to know if diesel bell housing to engine bolt pattern is the same in 240/740/940/960 regardless of the gearbox?
Thanks.

[Fivehundred]

I have a quick question that i can't find answer through search. I think I know the answer but just want to double check. Is M90 diesel gearbox interchangeable with older diesel gearboxes? The main thing I want to know if diesel bell housing to engine bolt pattern is the same in 240/740/940/960 regardless of the gearbox?
Thanks.

There are 3 versions of the M90, diesel, whiteblock and redblock. A Diesel M90 will bolt onto a D24 that previously had an older gearbox.