TIG Welding Tee-Joint Demos

[Captain Bondo]

Kinda borderline whether or not this is a showroom topic, but the subject of TIG welding ~1/4" steel T joints has come up a couple of times so I just welded up a few coupons real quick to demonstrate a few things.

The welds are zoomed in pretty far, note the penny for scale.

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Done Properly
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Pretty much how it ought to be. 1/8" tungsten, 150 amps, 3/32 filler, clean metal. This is all 3/16" flat stock as it is what was lying around.

Note the profile. This is really the best viewing angle as you can sorta see the weld in three dimensions:

http://www.pbase.com/capnbondo/image/76241676

From front:

http://www.pbase.com/capnbondo/image/76241662


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Not enough filler
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Here is one done with the same setting and material but with 1/16" filler:

Profile
http://www.pbase.com/capnbondo/image/76241673

Front
http://www.pbase.com/capnbondo/image/76241658

Notice it's probably liveable, but right on the edge of undercut.
Also notice the nasty crater at the end which is not a function of the filler wire size but simply of me being lazy.

You certainly can use 1/16" filler and some guys do. Personally it just doesn't work for me on welds where the amperage is greater than 100 amps or so.

60-100 Amps I use 1/16". 100-200 I use 3/32". under 60 amps I use 0.040 or smaller even.
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Dirty Metal
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Here is a decent weld, but I just wire wheels off a minimum amount of millscale, didn't grind.
You can see the bits of goop in the weld:
http://www.pbase.com/capnbondo/image/76241660
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Dirty Tungsten
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Here is a POS weld with a dirty tungsten:
http://www.pbase.com/capnbondo/image/76241669

Would have been decent but it has all kinds of weird BS and silica deposits and etc.

If I somehow accidentally made a weld on something I cared about (like say a suspension part) that looked like this one I would grind it off and start over. If it looks like that on the surface, who knows what kind of crap is in the weld.
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Tungsten Stickout/Equipment Pics.

Here's pics of the torch setup/tungsten I used:
http://www.pbase.com/capnbondo/image/76241667

That's a #6 cup. Just looks big becuase it is a gas lense setup.
CK Flex Loc torch and Optrel Satellite:
http://www.pbase.com/capnbondo/image/76241665

Thermal Arc TIG Welder:
http://www.pbase.com/capnbondo/image/76241666

1953 Lincoln Sheild Arc Stick Welder. Runs on 480V 3 phase, weighs almost 1000lbs. It has a flat tire. lol.
http://www.pbase.com/capnbondo/image/76241664

Anyways I hope this helps. Just some coupons, not exactly like the ultimate tig welds or anything, but hopefully it helps.

In the next week or two I will be shortening the axle tube and welding the brackets onto a ford 8.8 for my wagon, so then I can post some welds that actual serve an purpose and I'll try harder too. :nod:

[JW240]

very nice, thanks for sharing. Handy to have some good pictures of good/bad welds to compare own work with... Makes is a lot easier to find the cause of bad welds!

[740ATL]

thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you

Seriously... I've never taken a welding class... this is some of the best education I could ask for.

edit... just looking at the photos again... when you are welding, do you try to arrange the piece to have the puddle horizontal?

And re the cup size, is there a relationship between cup size and the width of the weld puddle? Why use a different cup?

[coldfusion21]

bigger cups spread out the gas flow. that probably kinda obvious though, and that about all i know. As for the position thing, i would assume he is welding it as its pictured, but i could be wrong.

Also: how do you like the optrel? It seems every one loves them, so i guess is there a reason you went with that over something else?


BTW: thanks for the pictures, always good to have a reference.

[Captain Bondo]

740ATL, when you say "arrange so the puddle is horizontal, do you mean so that each peice is sloped 45* from horizontal, instead of one piece being vertical and the other horizontal. IE "V" instead of "L", and then letting the puddle sit in the "V"?

If so, then no. For all of those welds one piece was sitting flat on the bench and the other was vertical. In other words ya, they were welded as pictured. If you wanted a demo of velding vertical up I could do that too. I have a whole bucket of 3/16" coupons for some reason, they predate my time at this shop. Might as well make use of 'em!

Getting the bead so that it is even on each piece is a function of angling the torch correctly. I tend to dab filler right in the joint, but I "bias" the heat" toward the bottom piece since it sinks way more heat. To do this I angle the torch so it is closer to vertical (ie not aimed at a 45* angle into the corner) and I also keep the arc about 2mm away from where the parts meet, aiming it at the bottom piece.

Basically I see it as having 2 seperate puddles, one on the flat piece, one on the vertical peice, and I am adding filler to make them one puddle. So you can keep the pnetration and weld geometry even by watching the two puddles form just before you add more filler.

Cup Size

Cup size does not effect puddle size. Puddle size is simply determined by heat input (well and how you move the torch, you could probably make a big puddle if you were doing something weird like moving it in a circle as you weld or something).

Honestly the cup size doesn't effetc the weld much at all. The deal with cups is that you need one. Other than that. I use what makes sense ergonomically, especially since I use the cup as a "rest" three quarters of the time. Typically inside corners get a #6, because it allows me to get a nice tight arc length without too much tungsten stickout. A #8 is too hard to get into the curner, and you have to stick the tungsten way out which makes it easy to contaminate, and can actually DECREASE gas coverage. I use a #8 on flat butt welds and outside corners.

The odd time I'll use a #4 somethere real tight.

Optrel

The Optrel is a POS for what I do. Having a solar-power-only helmet sucks. You need one that uses batteries as well. The odd time I'll be welding somewhere poorly lit (under a car, under a machine) and the f*cker won't darken when I first start an arc. Sure, it gets light from the arc and then darkens, but by then it's too late and I'm seeing stars.

I also miss having a big window (previous helmet was an old homelite manual with a big window).
My next helmet will be either a Jackson NexGen big window or a Miller Big Window Elite.

[mrbman7]

Welding is a really cool skill/art. I would love to learn but I don’t have access to any equipment :oops: . I live vicariously though all you welders on the board :)

Thanks for the pics and the lesson!!

[740ATL]

Hey Kenny,

thanks again. That clears things up for me... What I was concerned with was whether the weld puddle would sink because of gravity... thus positioning it such that the weld puddle was horizontal (parallel with the table) to eliminate this... but it's good to know it's not an issue.

So you use change cup size depending on how tight of an area you have to work with is correct? This is interesting... I have no idea what cup size I've been using (not my welder)... but if I had to guess, it's pretty big. It could explain a lot.

You mention resting the cup on the piece, then moving it across... I like this a lot because I have great difficulting welding with my torch elbow not resting on something... For some reason I don't have the stability on my right arm to comfortably and confidently weld freehand.

Do you start your arc by resting it on the piece as well?

Thanks.

Mike

[CTP_hookz]

miller big window elite is the hood i use. wouldnt trade it for the world.

hes talking about walkign the cup, its pretty diffacult to do, ionly know a few guys who roll with this method.

when you start you dont start withthe tungsten resting on anything, you hover slightly above the piece and let the hf start do its thing.

[740ATL]

I don't ever start with the tungsten touching anything. I was referring to the cup touching the piece.

[Captain Bondo]

ya, cup touching the piece. what you often do in angle the torch backward a bit so that the tngsten is for sure a decent distance from the piece. Then angle the torch forward again to gte the arc length tight.

And as CTP mentioned ya that is assume you have HF start. For scratch or lift arc you need to actually make contact with the part.

[qwkswede]

Cool Thread.

Kenny, Is that a water cooled torch on your thermal arc machine? Its quite nice and dainty. My air cooled torch is a little bulky, and my hand gets tired from wrestling around the torch/hose after a while. I only wish all my welding was on the benchtop. I'm much better there. But I recently dusted off my old mig machine, because I got tired of welding underneath of a car with the pedal between my knees and not nearly enough room to get my helmet flipped down under the car. Its good to have access to both processes in my little home garage.

Id love to see some more samples of out of position welds. vertical up, upside down, whatever! Those are the tricky ones.

Your T joints look better than mine, Im learning from this for sure.

[Captain Bondo]

Ya, torch is aircooled. Think the model number is an FL-17 (or maybe FL-18).

CK makes badass torches.
I'm not a huge fan of the aircooled, but it's only a 200amp machine and it's main virtue is how portable it is. The next machine will be AC/DC, 250 amps+, with a watercooled torch (Lots of Complete older Synchrowave 250dx's with the integrated cooler around for just over $2000 these days- that would be the hot setup). Watercooled is the only way to go if the setup pretty much stays in one place.

Agreed that the mig can be handy, I still use mine. I also have a thumb control for my TIG but I suck at using it.

I will do some overhead and vert up on the same coupons this week if I get time.

[qwkswede]

Here are some of my T-welds, non-demo style. I can funtionally weld aluminum. I was a bit rusty when I made this and its far from pretty. need mo practice

http://www.denverspeed.com/gallery2/d/7235-2/cimg0417.jpg

[blkaplan]

Whats the advantage of having a water cooled torch?

can you get a water cooled MIG torch?

Edit: did some research and found you can have a water cooled MIG torch. what reason do you prefer water cooled?

[coldfusion21]

water cooled torches are generally alot smaller. smaller usually means lighter, so they easier to use for a long project. Water cooled torches are also obviously cooler in the higher amperage settings and this can make for a much more comfortable weld.


i would think water cooled mig guns would be a issue only for high (i would think 300+ amps) production welding. not something any of us have to worry about.

[qwkswede]

Yeah, watercooled torches are nice. My aircooled is a little heavier, for some heat-sinking im sure. My machine maxes out at 200 amps, so water cooling is not super critical. But when welding aluminum I'm often between 150-200 amps and within a few minutes the torch gets uncomfortably hot to hold. A nice smaller torch would be easier to handle, and maneuver into tight spots and also not so hot to hold..

[Captain Bondo]

To repeat everyone else, yeah, they can be smaller for the same heatsinking ability.
The torch stays pretty much room temp while you weld which really improves your welds, since being comfortable is probably half the battle.

Basically torches have a duty cycle rating just like welders, the more steady you runn and more amps, the hotter things get. You see them in mig welding quite a bit actually because the duty cycles are often higher (less starting and stopping for rod, etc.

You star to notice it around 130amps, by 150 you hit the point where a water coled torch would be a significant benefit. But yeah, for the 200 amp machine we pretty much all have- we pretty much all have 200 amp inverter machines or Synchro 180/200 or Square Wave 175's it seems (probably becuase the cost almost doubles to get any fancier!:nod: ).

Qwk: welds look like they're coming along good, set the cup/tungsten up so you can sorta rest the cup on the piece, it'll help you be more consistent. And don't worry about the difficulties of out of position stuff. I rarely TIG out of position, mainly since usually out of position also means hard to get at to clean properly. At that point there's really no advantage vs. MIG.

I love TIG for clean stuff on the workbench, but MIG is top dog when things get awkward.

[740ATL]

I just looked in the cabinet in the room where the tig is kept and noticed a small box full of a bunch of different cup sizes, and moreover... :embarrassing sigh: different thickness tungsten tips...

Guys, I'm assuming the diameter of the tungsten is related to the size of the piece you're welding? Where and why would I use smaller diameter (I use what was in there... 3/16" I think).

thanks. :oops:

Mike

[CTP_hookz]

for 16ga piping i use 1/16 tungsten and filler rod.

for schedule 10 i use 1/16 tungsten and 3/32 filler rod.

i guess its mostly personal preference and trial and error as to what works best for you and your style

[CTP_hookz]

To repeat everyone else, yeah, they can be smaller for the same heatsinking ability.
The torch stays pretty much room temp while you weld which really improves your welds, since being comfortable is probably half the battle.

Basically torches have a duty cycle rating just like welders, the more steady you runn and more amps, the hotter things get. You see them in mig welding quite a bit actually because the duty cycles are often higher (less starting and stopping for rod, etc.

You star to notice it around 130amps, by 150 you hit the point where a water coled torch would be a significant benefit. But yeah, for the 200 amp machine we pretty much all have- we pretty much all have 200 amp inverter machines or Synchro 180/200 or Square Wave 175's it seems (probably becuase the cost almost doubles to get any fancier!:nod: ).

Qwk: welds look like they're coming along good, set the cup/tungsten up so you can sorta rest the cup on the piece, it'll help you be more consistent. And don't worry about the difficulties of out of position stuff. I rarely TIG out of position, mainly since usually out of position also means hard to get at to clean properly. At that point there's really no advantage vs. MIG.

I love TIG for clean stuff on the workbench, but MIG is top dog when things get awkward.

when things get awkward is when you get to showcase your skill as a tig welder. i hate mig welders with a passion. some situation necessitate a mig, but i stay away as much as possible.

[Captain Bondo]

when things get awkward is when you get to showcase your skill as a tig welder. i hate mig welders with a passion. some situation necessitate a mig, but i stay away as much as possible.

My jobs requires that I showcase my skill as a WELDER, not just as a TIG welder, and that means knowing what process to select for what job. :nod:

To each his own though, it's just not all of us live in the same world. Here's an example: Say your shop charges $100 an hour for welding- well, a broken machine in my world is $100 per minute, and my performance is largely based on uptime, which means do a good job, fix it right, but tweedling around doing field repairs with a TIG is out of the question unless it is necessary.

Different ball of wax. If you have time to scrub and clean an contort yourself to do TIG welds in all kinds of situations, that's wicked, but for me it is just a tool and I use it when it suits me best. :nod:

[pgrey]

I just looked in the cabinet in the room where the tig is kept and noticed a small box full of a bunch of different cup sizes, and moreover... :embarrassing sigh: different thickness tungsten tips...

Guys, I'm assuming the diameter of the tungsten is related to the size of the piece you're welding? Where and why would I use smaller diameter (I use what was in there... 3/16" I think).

thanks. :oops:

Mike

Try looking at some of this info. It'll help.

http://www.millerwelds.com/education/TIGhandbook/

http://www.millerwelds.com/education/calculators/tig_amperage_calculator.php

http://www.millerwelds.com/education/library.html

http://www.pro-fusiononline.com/welding/pulseparams.asp

https://ssl.lincolnelectric.com/foundation/store.asp?PID=17&cat=6

http://www.gowelding.com/handbook.pdf

http://groups.google.com/group/sci.engr.joining.welding/topics?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8 (Anything Ernie Leimkuhler you can take as gospel)

I don't look at this stuff any more as I know it all... ;-)

Happy perusing,

Peter

[qwkswede]

Another of mine I just did.
This is stainless sch. 10 pipe welded to a mild steel 1/2" thick flange. I used 3//32" 308 filler. Not sure if this was the best choice for the mixed metals but, its what I had. Suggestions? The shop sold it to me for stainless-stainless originally.

I used a 1/8" tungsten, ground to a point with a #6 cup, probably my gas-lens. The torch is air cooled. Max amperage was set at about 125amps, but I was throttling with my foot. So, I really don't know what amperage I was welding at. That thick piece of mild steel was sucking some heat though. I usually can get away with 3/32" tungsten on a stainless-stainless joint and alot less amperage.
http://www.denverspeed.com/gallery2/d/10155-2/IMG_8316.jpg

[nos245na]

Hmmm . I have never done this. I have never really heard of doing this actually. I have been welding for over 20 years but never done it.I guess I must have steady hands or something. I will give it a try. I tend to use a smaller cup (open style) and a smaller tungsten. I have one of the syncrowave 250Dx with the tig runner package that someone spoke of above. Water cooler all attached . Its much nicer than the Dialarc I had years ago because of the packaging of the radiator and everything being one unit.

As an aside , I just got married a few of months ago. When we were shopping for wedding bands one of the choice of materials was tungsten---had to have it.
George in DC

[Captain Bondo]

Cool on the tungsten wedding band- and timely. I just picked up an engagement ring today!!

Agree that the integrated cooler on the Sync 250 is great. In situations where I can't brace myself or walk the cup I'll usually use a smaller cup as well- when dragging the cup size is based on what you want for tungsten stickout/arc length.

Anyways, I uploaded a ton of pics of my Ford 8.8 rear end swap some more welding pics too.

http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?p=1189614#post1189614

[Rust Reaper]

I just picked up an engagement ring today!!





:O we gotta meet up before you disappear to the land of marriedness forever.