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-   -   Groove Results - Tried & tested (https://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=74370)

Les, slight limp 07-09-2006 04:54 PM

My mpg is up 15-20% round town so i'm well satisfied.

strouty 07-11-2006 02:43 PM

16 valve head
 
I am in the planning stages of my 16vt buildup in a 93 945 tic. I wonder if using these grooves on the 16v head would allow me to run the stock pistons from the b234 engine? I am going to try the grooves on my 8v head first. I currently have to run 93 octane so I don't ping or knock. So if this works I may be able to downgrade my octane? I will find out. The head should be ready in a month or so. I will post results later.

xwave 07-15-2006 04:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Les, slight limp
My mpg is up 15-20% round town so i'm well satisfied.

Les what approx MPG do you get?

Cheers

PetesDustyVolvo 07-15-2006 04:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by strouty
I am in the planning stages of my 16vt buildup in a 93 945 tic. I wonder if using these grooves on the 16v head would allow me to run the stock pistons from the b234 engine?

As in stock B230F/B230FT pistons? Unrelated issue

Les, slight limp 07-15-2006 06:09 PM

Round town ie all 30-40 mph stop & start driving with maybe a 70-80 mph trip to tamworth 12 miles gives 26. odd to the british gallon, on the holiday trip which was pretty mixed driving is 514 miles on 81 litres and it's down to the top of the red, so about another 15? - 20 miles, i'm clocking all the fuel put in and doing a 1000 mile test, i've done 750 odd so far.

On 20 pounds worth of fuel i used to get 120 odd miles, when the fuel went up that came down to about 100 - 105 miles, now it's grooved it's back up to 120 odd miles, these figures are based on a weekly fuel allowance of 20 pounds so i notice how many miles i got, the fuel is actually slightly dearer now at 96 - 97 pence per litre, it was a pound a litre in wales.

xwave 07-15-2006 06:18 PM

Ok thanks les.

Im at about 26-28 MPG so I guess Im doing ok then.

Was hoping for 30-35 though!

scotts 07-17-2006 05:57 PM

My experience with the Grooves in a 1988 Chrysler 2.2 Turbo intercooled. I have just completed the head swap a couple of weeks ago. I have noticed cool EGT temps. As low as 650F at idle though 700F is the norm. Around town 775-850F, highway about 857-950F, boosting to 12psi just breaks 1000F, though it may go higher and I just do not see it quick enough. These EGTs temps are ~200F below what others report as normal. With the boosting temps very low. I did raise the C/R .5 from 8.1 to 8.6 by milling the head.

A friend that had his EGT in before he did the grooves has seen a 200F+ drop in EGTs.

Les, slight limp 07-18-2006 03:45 AM

Thanks for the figures scotts, it's nice to have some hard data.

Unregistered 07-19-2006 03:26 AM

I just got through getting my +T back on the road with grooves. I used 2 grooves per chamber. Similar pattern to the ones pictured here.

Initial start-up, the engine ran notably quieter and smoother.

My short road test revealed the engine more responsive and quieter.

Obviously, I need more road time to deduce whether the grooves helped mileage or not. So far, I like the effect.

No mpg figures yet. My pre-groove mpg is 21 highway @ 70mph. I am hoping to improve on this by at least 15%.

I will post my findings.

xwave 08-16-2006 10:58 AM

Further Results
 
Hi all,

Has been a while since my last post.
I wanted to give plenty of time to reasonably evaluate some results & driving a few thousand miles before I posted.

Well I can say I am very pleased with the results.
I have upped the boost a little more, and still:
Fuel economy has been at a steady 28-30 UK MPG, consisting of mainly longer runs on A roads /Motorway runs, including some town driving, and being stuck in slow moving traffic on the M6 for over 1 hour - which is to be expected if you live in the UK.
Engine has been smooth and Quiet
The Turbo spooling sound is noticable, unlike pre groove, where it wasnt noticable at all.
Plenty of low end torque (takes off from 2400 RPM)
Engine oil still clean.
More Power (from increasing boost a notch)
I cant / dont need to put my foot right down, as now the extra torque is causing some slipping of my clutch!
(my 16T will need to wait a little beore going in!)
The engine seems to be running cooler. (I say seems as I think my temp guage has temp compensation board, so its not as straight forward to read from the gauge accurately, but has never been past (or even up to) dead centre, even on the occasions we have had exceptionally hot days for the UK. Pre groove the temp gauge was pretty much dead centre, but difficult to give an accurate indication on this.


Quote:

Originally Posted by PetesDustyVolvo (Post 850315)
you guys should index your plugs while the heads are off...

Today I decided to index the plugs (a little better by moving them to other chambers) , and at the same time take a look at them visually.

Visually, from the plugs, the engine appears to be running well.

I was a little surprised that the plugs were pretty spotless round the ceramic surround centre electode side facing towards the main groove (or centre of the chamber) with light carbon deposits on the opposite side (near the chamber wall).

Regarding the indexing of the plugs, as you can see from my head groove photo (below), the spark plug on the right was probably in the WORST position regarding indexing terms.
Interestingly, the white surround on the centre electrode was still spotlessly clean on the edge near the main groove, and the coating on this spark plug ground electrode was this light blue colour, talked about.

http://www.subsurfaceradio.com/image...o530groove.jpg

Furthermore, the exhaust tailpipe exit, has a nice coating of light grey carbon, suggesting a good running engine and mixture.
My older exhaust pre mod, was much more sooty.

Also, (probably not due to the grooves in the most part) Oil consumption is very much reduced to zero. This is probably because beore I was running Mobil 1 (5w 30) or (10W30) cos 10W 40 doesnt seem available in the UK. I think this was too thin. Im now running 10w40 Amsoil. I am also not getting any in my Oil catchcan like beore. Like I say, this is prob not due to the grooving.

Overall all very +ve, and Im very happy. Recommended.

JonnyScorch 08-16-2006 11:47 AM

Glad to hear more about the grooves in the real world!

It would be neat to see before and after emissions tests to see just HOW much cleaner the engine is running...

I'll post up my emissions results once i get the 89 744ti back on the road(cause i need the test before i renew my plates anyhow), but i can't compare properly to before as it will be a new engine, vx cam, increased comp., different cat, new 02, etc..

automotivebreath 08-17-2006 11:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Somender Singh
Some thing to Smile about !

Xwave,
Thanks so much for the up date. I’m very happy things are going well and Somender Singh is pleased to hear of the success.

Cylinder pressure must be getting high with indications of blue color on the plugs!

Don’t be too quick to credit the reduced oil consumption to the heavy weight oil. My findings are the grooves improve ring seal likely due to reduced piston rock and less carbon in the ring lands.

Cheers,
AB


Quote:

Originally Posted by xwave (Post 897623)

Overall all very +ve, and Im very happy. Recommended.


xwave 08-19-2006 05:36 AM

Hi all.

JonnyScorch - I have a basic pre emissions test, which was apparantly seemed a little on the high side (0.78% CO)- until it was realised my car was pre-cat (or cat removed) due to the year. Then it was veiwed as ok/ good for no CAT.

This would be a good after groove test which will be observed on its next MOT. Particularily not having a CAT, which in not having wont mask the true results if no other mods are done till I get it done.

AB - Thanks for your reply. In honest reporting I have to say that on reduced oil Consumption I feel in part some /most is due to the change of oil - The 10W40 is not Heavyweight by any means - Its standard for this engine, and the Mobil 1 was def a bit thin in the weight I had. Hovever, indeed some or even majority could be due to the grooves. But Obviously its not something I can confirm with anything like 100%, although its good to hear that the grooves could/are helping in this respect. The oil being cleaner (with me & other grooving reports) also backs up the ring seal theory.

Also having a new head gasket and cleaned up head has got to help, although (for me), as all my cylinder pressures were high and consistent pre groove (175psi on all 4 cylinders) probably negates the gasket being a problem pre groove.

I suppose being one of the people doing the grooves with a good running engine and a head gasket that didnt need doing, hopefully reflects less indication that the beneits were attributed to other things, and is a relatively good A/B test as few things & no other major mods were performed at the time of grooving.

JonnyScorch 08-19-2006 10:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xwave (Post 901158)
JonnyScorch - I have a basic pre emissions test, which was apparantly seemed a little on the high side (0.78% CO)- until it was realised my car was pre-cat (or cat removed) due to the year. Then it was veiwed as ok/ good for no CAT.

This would be a good after groove test which will be observed on its next MOT. Particularily not having a CAT, which in not having wont mask the true results if no other mods are done till I get it done.

This would be great to compare B&A. With all this talk about a more complete/efficient burn, the only real way imo tp actually prove this would be through emissions testing while keeping as many other variables constant... Can't wait to hear about the results!

Morten VJ 08-19-2006 12:03 PM

I did this Friday.
http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/6721/img0055bg6.jpg
And after 40 km this is my impression.

The engine is mutch smoother.
The turbo spools 500 rpm sooner.

I had to reduce my fuel 3-10 %

Strait a-b test i modified the old head.

Engine

Modefied B23 et

Megasquirt running the ekstra code WB lambda controller.

So far i’m very happy

BR

Morten

Canuckvolvo 08-21-2006 12:31 PM

It looks like you scratched up the area around the fire ring on 3 cyl there...did you re-surface after that? If not, I hope your HG holds...
On an economy note, my '95 940T with autotragic averaged 30miles/uk gallon on our 2500km road trip this summer. No grooves. Sounds like some of you need to do some tuning, or improve your driving habits if you want to break into the low 30s!

Morten VJ 08-21-2006 01:57 PM

Those are only surface scratses, you can't feel them.

It's very easy to say i'm a better driver because i'm running 30 mpg on my vacaition trip.

It really dosen't matter.

We have different roads, traffic, and driving habbits.

If i can get 3 more miles to the gallon with My driving style, roads ect.
Just because of the groves i'm happy.

BR

Morten

klr142 08-21-2006 10:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Canuckvolvo (Post 903013)
Sounds like some of you need to do some tuning, or improve your driving habits if you want to break into the low 30s!

Nah, your car just has problems... :-P

If I can get a hold of a b20 head for cheap I'll probably toy with it with some grooves and very basic porting.

automotivebreath 08-21-2006 10:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morten VJ (Post 903104)
Those are only surface scratses, you can't feel them.
Morten

Hi Morten,
When handling cylinder heads during porting and combustion chamber modifications it's common to get small scratches. I lightly clean the head by hand with mineral spirits and a fine scotch bright pad. Carbon washes away and surface imperfections are easily found.

http://members.cox.net/dnaquin/Josh%20Dart.jpg

xwave 08-25-2006 03:06 PM

Understanding Tickover (for US readers)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Silverback (Post 848559)
Probably a british English vs what the rest of us speak issue ;-), but what do you mean buy “tickover” or “get the tickover down?”

Quote:

Originally Posted by suterman (Post 848682)
tickover=idle speed.

the lower the number for brit "piss" = lower number US. Piss

Obviously a full explaination of what Tickover is for those who donk speak and understand english, and the americans out there .... :)

What is tickover ?

Tick can be divided into 2 parts - "tick" and "over".

The Tick referrs to the 'tick' sound of the cars engine, generally when idling.
Some car owners, who have diesels engines may hear a "klonk" sound.
Hovever some protective owners may get irrate i you refer to their engine "Klocking" rather than "ticking". One Tick is usually determined at one tick to one revolution of the cars engine

Over refers to "over time" and the scientiically accepted model of time is 1 minute, in regards to the application of ticks.

The clever part ...
Put them together and you get "tickover" thus 1 tick per revolution per munute.

This is equal to idle speed in Revolutions Per Minute. Thus "tickover" accurately describes the cars idle state - RPM.

Elaborating on suterman's excellent scientific equation by using capitals and an extra space or two:
TICKOVER = IDLE SPEED

For diesel owners, the tickover could be described as "klonkover". However scientiic study has shown that there is often more than one klonk on diesel engines, and in some cases more clonks than the engines cylinders.

Thus this equation was formulated for "klonkover":

TICKOVER = IDLE SPEED = (KLONKOVER -X ) / n
where X = number of extra klonks the diesel engine makes in 1 munute
n= number of cylinders

The trouble was with this is that X could, and would vary significantly from car to car, and would vary in different engines, even of the same design. Factors contributed to this was the age, and milage of the vehicle, and the general noises of diesel engines.

Hence the Klonkover theory and calculation was dropped, and they decided to stick with "tickover" here in the UK.

Hope this helps. :)

xwave 08-25-2006 03:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Canuckvolvo (Post 903013)
On an economy note, my '95 940T with autotragic averaged 30miles/uk gallon on our 2500km road trip this summer. No grooves. Sounds like some of you need to do some tuning, or improve your driving habits if you want to break into the low 30s!

Well all I can say is my car was running very well pre grove - but thats why I didnt see a massive improvement, although there was/is an improvement, albeit small but noticable.
However if going from 28-30 MPG (only 2 MPG as an exampe) is still a 7% improvement.
Also many groovers have much more marked improvements, particulary petrol (gas) guzzling engines, or example Drag engines, and I dont mean engines with a dress and some makeup on .. :)

Sound like you have a nice running car either way though ... a great test car for grooving! :-P

automotivebreath 08-26-2006 02:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xwave (Post 907671)
What is tickover ?

Tick can be divided into 2 parts - "tick" and "over".

The Tick referrs to the 'tick' sound of the cars engine, generally when idling.
Some car owners, who have diesels engines may hear a "klonk" sound.
Hovever some protective owners may get irrate i you refer to their engine "Klocking" rather than "ticking". One Tick is usually determined at one tick to one revolution of the cars engine

Over refers to "over time" and the scientiically accepted model of time is 1 minute, in regards to the application of ticks.

The clever part ...
Put them together and you get "tickover" thus 1 tick per revolution per munute.

This is equal to idle speed in Revolutions Per Minute. Thus "tickover" accurately describes the cars idle state - RPM.

Thanks for the excellent explanation, I had no idea. High compression grooved SBC engines with a long duration camshaft and a tight lobe separation produces a sort of crackle. Perhaps a new word is in the making! “crackleover”

xwave 08-28-2006 04:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by automotivebreath (Post 908574)
Thanks for the excellent explanation, I had no idea. High compression grooved SBC engines with a long duration camshaft and a tight lobe separation produces a sort of crackle. Perhaps a new word is in the making! “crackleover”

Over here "Crackleover" refers to the number of crackles /pops emitted from Rice Krispies and Coco Pops cereal per minute after adding milk. The rate usually decreases over time, and can vary with the type of milk. Fully skimmed milk tends to produce a greater initial rate of crackles, but decreases more quickly. Full Fat milk has a slightly slower initial rate, but the crackle rate decreases less quickly. Semi- Skimmed is somewhere in between. All however produce the same number of crackles at "combustion completion". The slight varing effects of differing milks are due to the milk absorption into the cereal, releasing the pop sound, which have been cleverly and individually inserted during the manuacturing process of the cereals.

lol :rofl:

automotivebreath 08-29-2006 10:50 PM

xwave, you are too funny, any experience with additives?

xwave 08-30-2006 03:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by automotivebreath (Post 912728)
xwave, you are too funny, any experience with additives?

Me or the car? LOL.

The only additives I have used is petrol wise shortly after buying the car - Injector cleaner - and thats about it.

Oil wise wouldnt put anything in the oil. Adding Stuff in oil is generally bad, particulary long term, as Im sure youll know.

Why do you ask?


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