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-   -   Groove Results - Tried & tested (https://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=74370)

xwave 09-08-2006 04:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alidrus (Post 922746)
So in other words, your EMS is compensating for the change in AFR somehow. Not quite the kind of results I was looking for...
Thanks again.

No I think the grooves are compensating for the AFR.

They seem to have the effect of reducing detonation, making a better mix, and in my unevidenced view, cooling hotspots such as the spark plug electrode avoiding pinging /detonation. The EMS (MS) is just alowing the mixture to be set (leaned out) in this case.

Please correct me if Im wrong.

scotts 09-08-2006 11:17 PM

Morten, do you have any pics of the grooves? What shape are the pistons? Are they dished, flat, reverse dome?

You use the same advance tables after the grooves?

220KPa for boost? Wow! That is 32psi, if my math is right. That would be crazy high for the setup I drive (Chrysler 2.2 Turbo Intercooled).

I have just started playing with custom calibrations for ECU. No wide band yet. But the EGTs are still low.

Morten VJ 09-09-2006 01:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scotts (Post 924120)
Morten, do you have any pics of the grooves? What shape are the pistons? Are they dished, flat, reverse dome?

You use the same advance tables after the grooves?

220KPa for boost? Wow! That is 32psi, if my math is right. That would be crazy high for the setup I drive (Chrysler 2.2 Turbo Intercooled).

I have just started playing with custom calibrations for ECU. No wide band yet. But the EGTs are still low.

In post 40 there are pictures.
dished pistons 9.0 c.r.

well i'm still playing with the numbers off boost.
In boost i'm using the same numbers but i'm using a lower grade fuel


220 Kpa is 17.6 psi
Volvo used 12 psi but on a higer grade fuel



Morten

automotivebreath 09-09-2006 04:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xwave (Post 923777)
No I think the grooves are compensating for the AFR.

They seem to have the effect of reducing detonation, making a better mix, and in my unevidenced view, cooling hotspots such as the spark plug electrode avoiding pinging /detonation. The EMS (MS) is just alowing the mixture to be set (leaned out) in this case.

Please correct me if Im wrong.

Not a correction, just another view.

Think of the groove as a method of increasing flame intensity.

When I was a scout I learned early on that you could burn wet wood if you were able to get a good initial blaze going to heat the wet wood. In the combustion chamber the groove provides mixture movement to increase early flame intensity, this facilitates a more complete burn even when air/fuel mixtures are less than ideal. An intense flame burns quickly transferring less heat to the combustion chamber surfaces.

scotts 09-09-2006 11:18 AM

Thanks for the info Morten and the conversion correction :D. My setup is 12psi stock as well on the higher grade of fuel. With my grooves I have not been able to use lower grade of gas with out knock retard. My C/R is 8.6 with dished pistons as well. I have been leaning towards I may need to change the shape/size of the grooves I have.

Does the Volvo have a knock sensor? Do you monitor it?

Pic of my forged dished pistons
http://www.sheenconsulting.com/car/p...scopiston1.JPG About the same squish area as your dished?

Pic of my heads grooves
http://www.sheenconsulting.com/car/p...hsGrooves2.JPG

Here is my site about the car.
www.sheenconsulting.com/car

Morten VJ 09-09-2006 11:40 AM

Yes i do have a knock sensor, it's infoming the APC system (intelligent boost controller made by SAAB) and the Apc is informing MS about knock.
So i have my ears and datalogs to verify my ears.
And i must admit i do have a slight problem at 125 kpa 2800 rpm when the intake temperature is above 28 deg celcius. i just might have to retard or give it some more fuel.

BTW. 18-1 afr crusing is no problem.

Morten

scotts 09-09-2006 12:04 PM

That A/F is excellent!

Any comments on the grooves in my pic?

Morten VJ 09-09-2006 12:46 PM

It looks like you have a different piston design, i have more material around the egdes, an not so deep a disch.
http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/874/img0060dk9.jpg
The pistons are 0.25mm above the deck, totalling 1mm squisch static.

Morten

xwave 09-09-2006 02:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by automotivebreath (Post 924281)
Not a correction, just another view.

Think of the groove as a method of increasing flame intensity.

When I was a scout I learned early on that you could burn wet wood if you were able to get a good initial blaze going to heat the wet wood. In the combustion chamber the groove provides mixture movement to increase early flame intensity, this facilitates a more complete burn even when air/fuel mixtures are less than ideal. An intense flame burns quickly transferring less heat to the combustion chamber surfaces.

Yup AB, Thats another 'accepted' theory of the benfeit of grooves.

My common sense theory is also that if you have more or faster moving air around hot parts it will keep them cooler.

Quote:

Originally Posted by scotts (Post 924411)
Thanks for the info Morten and the conversion correction :D. My setup is 12psi stock as well on the higher grade of fuel. With my grooves I have not been able to use lower grade of gas with out knock retard. My C/R is 8.6 with dished pistons as well. I have been leaning towards I may need to change the shape/size of the grooves I have.

Does the Volvo have a knock sensor? Do you monitor it?

Pic of my forged dished pistons
http://www.sheenconsulting.com/car/p...scopiston1.JPG About the same squish area as your dished?

Pic of my heads grooves
http://www.sheenconsulting.com/car/p...hsGrooves2.JPG

Here is my site about the car.
www.sheenconsulting.com/car

Scott I am no master mechanic, nor an expert on grooves however:
1. Your pistons look wicked! like the cuts in them - should make things swirl nicely! :)

2. Why does your head look like its made from stone??? Is that a original volvo head off the Flintstones vehicle?? or is it just the light? and whats that lighter circular line? looks like a bit of quartz in the granite head! :???:

3. The grooves look terriblly shallow. I must admit my grooves are on the thin side (width) but pretty deep, and they work a treat.

I would say go DEEP, although obviosly you need to know how deep for that particular head as to not go through the other side or hit water!

PS. I wouldnt make the sides as shallow. just go down.

Update: The other pic of the grooves on your site does look better - the head is more 'normal' and the grooves look deeper on that pic. Id still be tempted to go a little deeper on the main groove if possible.

scotts 09-09-2006 10:51 PM

Hi xwave,

1. The pistons are forged custom Wisecos. I blew up the stock pistons. There are pics of the busted pistons on my site. :D

2. I come from the Chrysler 2.2 Turbo world. Please do not hold that against me. :D The head is the Chrysler 782 swirl cira 1988. I had the combustion chamber cermaic heat coated. That is why it looks a little different. Although the head was shaved, it is not overly smooth.

3. A little deeper? I was thinking the same thing. Deeper is possible. I believe it is .335" thick there.

I am also worried about the lack squish area on the piston. It is pretty small. I wonder if this is why the results could be better as well. I had the thought of maybe doing a third groove in a curve closer to the edge in an effort to be under the piston's squish area. Comments?

xwave 09-10-2006 07:05 AM

hiya scotts,
Thanks for asking my humble, inexperienced engineering opinion. :-P

I would say go deeper on main groove only.
Im not a big fan of too many grooves in one area, - seems to me that it would reduce air speed & mixing on compression. Also my grooves are thinner than what appears to be 'accepted' practise, but they seem work very well indeed.

The dish pistons arnt ideal according to singh, but the 830 volvo head has 2 squish areas which seems to improves things and be a good compromise.

Looking at your head, you have a "semi squish" area on the 'lip' above your plug.
'Les, slight limp' originally came up with his 2 groove placement which I have followed seems to work, and I would consider puting a groove on this lip above your plug to help get the flame /combustion started in this 'semi squish area' in your head.

However looking at your extensive and proessional mods I would certainly get a second opinion from someone who is more qualified than I. ;-)

alidrus 09-11-2006 12:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morten VJ (Post 924188)
220 Kpa is 17.6 psi

:???:

Google seems to think that 220 Kpa is closer to 32 psi.

And sorry if I made a false assumption that MS is compensating somehow. I've still got a long way to read up on it. But anyway, it seems that the grooves is indeed changing the limits of how far u are able to go with the AFRs.

Edit: In the spirit of not interfering with this thread further, I will _try_ to stop posting as I realize now I must sound really stupid. :lol: Thanks a lot for the brief explanation of the 220 KPa below. BTW, being able to run 18:1 for cruising is really very cool. I hope once all the info on red block grooves is collected, someone here will be able to write a nice article about it.
:volvo:

fryea 09-11-2006 12:49 AM

remember that atmosphere is already at 100kpa, so 220-100 = 120kpa

xwave 09-11-2006 10:13 AM

alidrus,

Dont be too hard on yourself! We have all been in the position of not knowing things until we learn them. I dont think any of us are born knowing anything other than instincive stuff (such as eating crying, sucking on breasts etc :-P

scotts 09-13-2006 01:20 AM

Morten, what is the A/F you can run in boost? Do you have an EGT gauge as well? If so, what are your temps?

Morten VJ 09-16-2006 02:02 AM

Scotts.

I'm running
11-1 afr above 160 kpa.
12.2-1 at 140 kpa
13.5-1 at 120 kpa
14.2 at 100 kpa

And i don't mesure EGT.

BR

Morten

scotts 09-18-2006 01:44 PM

Thank you for the info Morten.

Unregistered 09-19-2006 04:35 AM

Emissions?
 
What happened to the emissions testing?

and has anyone had any negative experience from the Grooves?

Unregistered 12-09-2006 12:18 AM

Anybody heard from Morten?

Morten VJ 12-09-2006 03:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unregistered (Post 992218)
Anybody heard from Morten?

The car is still running .
The planned upgrades is a bigger turbo Escort Coswort.
A new head 530 with 38 mm exhaust valves, and some mild porting.
And 2 more groves.
I'm a beliver.


BR.

Morten

ShadowWorks 06-08-2008 11:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morten VJ (Post 992952)

Morten

Hi Morten, what engine do you have in your 9000? is it the B202? do you have a picture of your grooves?

wagonfetish 10-28-2009 02:31 PM

thread resurrection....

Anyone have more current/newer developments or feedback?

blkaplan 10-29-2009 12:46 AM

money better spent on slap chop?

Slobodan 10-29-2009 12:56 AM

Look, I know this stuff works. I've tried it on my 530 head. I was able to run 18deg base idle timing without problems(pings) on 87 octane fuel. And don't you tell me this stuff is bs. I've posted before on this thread. I was running the B23F with flat top pistons. CR is 10.3:1 on that motor. before the grooves, 13 base idle timing was maximum. And all I used was a triangled shaped file to create the grooves. Just two, one and each side of the combustion chamber pointed at the spark plug. Not to mention the 30miles to the gallon I recieved.


I think I've posted on this thread before. but TAKE IT FROM ME IT WORKS>

Stereophile33 10-29-2009 01:09 AM

I have a B23F running 12.4:1 compression. Tight squish on Pumpgas with 19* of timing. Granted the head has had some work done to it.

I'm totally cool with folks trying grooves, but just like the butt dyno folks telling me their car is faster and then going to the dyno and it puts out less power....hard work messes with your head. Just like a loud exhaust makes a car quicker...I swear.

I have yet to be able to find someone that has optimized an engine for both philosophies. Somender says that optimal grooves require a squish distance of .070 in or higher. So in essence to build a motor appropriately requires a tight squish motor and then a groove motor with a thicker headgasket, but a shaved head to accomodate the loss in compression from both the gasket and the grooves.

I've yet to finish exploring the nature of tight squish fast burn on our engines....grooves interest me, but Im typically a pessimist when it comes to stuff like this.

There are motorsports teams in the world that are in the business of winning races and making money....and even a 2% increase in efficiency or power is HIGHLY desirable.


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