Turbobricks Forums

Turbobricks Forums (https://forums.tbforums.com/index.php)
-   performance & modifications (https://forums.tbforums.com/forumdisplay.php?f=13)
-   -   help me find out what is wrong with my front axle alignment (https://forums.tbforums.com/showthread.php?t=323039)

12david34 06-28-2016 11:27 AM

help me find out what is wrong with my front axle alignment
 
Hello guys
im here to ask for a help as i ran into into some weird issue with my car.

the car:
1989 245 N/A
no brutal performance stuff except polybushing everywhere, revalved bilsteins, custom made (stock OD sized) springs and camber plates.

the issue:
somehow im not able to set the caster to the ,,factory´´ specs. according to greenbook, the caster on power steering equipped car should be in +3°-+4° range..
i spent like 1 and half our trying to set my camber/caster to desired numbers , but i simply couldnt get it to where i want it without going crazy with negative camber..

before alignment specs:
https://scontent-vie1-1.xx.fbcdn.net...16&oe=57FF63D1

after 1 1/2 hour of setting i ended up with this.. (the strange thing is the passanger side can be easily set to -1 camber and +3° something caster, but the drivers side was differend )

https://scontent-vie1-1.xx.fbcdn.net...ab&oe=57F430BD

and the camber plates
https://scontent-vie1-1.xx.fbcdn.net...c1&oe=57E9C043

all i want is have that caster at factory specs with max -1° camber, not more..
greeting David

4x4_Welder 06-28-2016 03:15 PM

Do you have the right ball joints? I know the manual steering cars used less offset for less caster.

12david34 06-28-2016 03:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4x4_Welder (Post 5424428)
Do you have the right ball joints? I know the manual steering cars used less offset for less caster.

i knew this question will come, but they seem correct to me.
https://scontent-waw1-1.xx.fbcdn.net...dc&oe=5802E742

madagent9 06-28-2016 04:08 PM

can you adjust the angle of that upper mount? ive seen some people install them so they are kind of diagonal instead of exactly cross car. like kind of parallel to that firewall brace. then you could get more caster and camber at the same time by adjusting back toward the firewall and in?

12david34 06-28-2016 04:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by madagent9 (Post 5424440)
can you adjust the angle of that upper mount? ive seen some people install them so they are kind of diagonal instead of exactly cross car. like kind of parallel to that firewall brace. then you could get more caster and camber at the same time by adjusting back toward the firewall and in?

im not sure if these can be used like that.. they do not have a pre-drilled holes for mounting them in that position.. but we still talking about setting the caster back to stock/factory specs.. that means that it has to be possible with oem rubber mounts and not only with camber places.. heck, it should have been more easier with camber plates..

turbotankshane 06-28-2016 11:00 PM

I've fought this one my wife's 85 wagon for some time. I aligned 3 or 4 times, always had camber dead on, toe dead on, but couldn't get caster quite to spec. Got as close to possible but always had a pull to the right.

This last time, after I put another p/s rack on it, threw it on the alignment rack and just set as close as I could on the driver side and added .3 degrees on the passenger side, and it now drives straight down the road. It takes the slightest bit more steering effort but not even so much that my wife noticed.

12david34 06-29-2016 05:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by turbotankshane (Post 5424626)
I've fought this one my wife's 85 wagon for some time. I aligned 3 or 4 times, always had camber dead on, toe dead on, but couldn't get caster quite to spec. Got as close to possible but always had a pull to the right.

This last time, after I put another p/s rack on it, threw it on the alignment rack and just set as close as I could on the driver side and added .3 degrees on the passenger side, and it now drives straight down the road. It takes the slightest bit more steering effort but not even so much that my wife noticed.

the steering rack was rebuilt.. i have no other good replacement for it.. i wonder what could go wrong

12david34 06-29-2016 06:22 AM

do you guys think the lowering springs can cause this indifference in geometry/alignment?

Egez 06-29-2016 08:01 AM

How much they are lowering? That could be the it.

12david34 06-29-2016 08:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Egez (Post 5424739)
How much they are lowering? That could be the it.

30-40mm. i never thought tha lowering springs may affect the geometry

turbotankshane 06-29-2016 12:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 12david34 (Post 5424709)
the steering rack was rebuilt.. i have no other good replacement for it.. i wonder what could go wrong

My p/s rack wasn't a problem in my alignment, the previous one had just happened to start leaking so after I replaced it I needed to align.

John V, outside agitator 06-29-2016 02:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 12david34 (Post 5424769)
30-40mm. i never thought tha lowering springs may affect the geometry

Of course lowering spring means the lower arm swings ^ upward in an arc MORE than at designed static ride height... if the strut looks like a slightly tilted L (upward part strut, the horisonatal bar being the spindle)
+--------------------- L"

Of course if the whole thing swings around the pivot "+" the L will tilt inwards as the arc begins going not just up but inward.


http://cfile3.uf.tistory.com/image/2...5201124817CBB3


That's one of the problems of the McPherson strut design.

culberro 06-29-2016 02:38 PM

Lowering will have an influence on the amount of camber you can get.

With stock diameter springs I was only able to get -0.5deg of camber (no clue on caster) with camber plates. I recently went back to stock ride height (yay!) and stock strut mounts. +0.5deg of camber is the lowest I can go. Caster is about 0.5 to 1.0 deg less than stock. As far as I can tell, there's nothing bent and the bushings are fresh. So there's that.

B-lennium 06-29-2016 03:07 PM

don't forget the panhard bar, it pushes your rearaxle to one side when lowering

woodenpudden 06-29-2016 03:21 PM

Posting for posterity. I'm in a similar situation. Lowered quite a bit in front, using the same camber plates. Steers, tracks, wears tires just fine, so I'm really not worried about it being .5 - 1 degree off in caster.

<a data-flickr-embed="true" href="https://www.flickr.com/photos/perrylens/22389834236/in/dateposted/" title="image"><img src="https://c5.staticflickr.com/6/5636/22389834236_fbb0537b8f_c.jpg" width="800" height="600" alt="image"></a><script async src="//embedr.flickr.com/assets/client-code.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

12david34 06-29-2016 03:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John V, outside agitator (Post 5424924)
Of course lowering spring means the lower arm swings ^ upward in an arc MORE than at designed static ride height... if the strut looks like a slightly tilted L (upward part strut, the horisonatal bar being the spindle)
+--------------------- L"

Of course if the whole thing swings around the pivot "+" the L will tilt inwards as the arc begins going not just up but inward.


http://cfile3.uf.tistory.com/image/2...5201124817CBB3


That's one of the problems of the McPherson strut design.

John thank you for the input.. but i will have to re read this 3 more times , hope it will be enogh for my brain to understant it.. :D

12david34 06-29-2016 03:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by culberro (Post 5424950)
Lowering will have an influence on the amount of camber you can get.

With stock diameter springs I was only able to get -0.5deg of camber (no clue on caster) with camber plates. I recently went back to stock ride height (yay!) and stock strut mounts. +0.5deg of camber is the lowest I can go. Caster is about 0.5 to 1.0 deg less than stock. As far as I can tell, there's nothing bent and the bushings are fresh. So there's that.

yeah, im fighting with caster.. camber is just fine.. maybe a bit more than i wanted..

12david34 06-29-2016 03:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by B-lennium (Post 5424966)
don't forget the panhard bar, it pushes your rearaxle to one side when lowering

hey B. thanks but im fine at the rear.. my homemade adjustable panhard doing a great work..

John V, outside agitator 06-29-2016 03:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 12david34 (Post 5424991)
John thank you for the input.. but i will have to re read this 3 more times , hope it will be enogh for my brain to understant it.. :D


The key is to NOT think too hard but more LOOK at the design of strut with the spindle fixed and one single pivot point..Maybe draw a crude drawing. and draw arrrows..maybe cut out a paper strut and pin the arm at inner pivot and move the strut in an arc

..It's not thinking...its all looking..

12david34 06-29-2016 03:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by woodenpudden (Post 5424974)
Posting for posterity. I'm in a similar situation. Lowered quite a bit in front, using the same camber plates. Steers, tracks, wears tires just fine, so I'm really not worried about it being .5 - 1 degree off in caster.

<a data-flickr-embed="true" href="https://www.flickr.com/photos/perrylens/22389834236/in/dateposted/" title="image"><img src="https://c5.staticflickr.com/6/5636/22389834236_fbb0537b8f_c.jpg" width="800" height="600" alt="image"></a><script async src="//embedr.flickr.com/assets/client-code.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

hey man, im glad you posted this.. seriously.thank you
i just dont understand hows that possible..(maybe the answer is in Johns comment?!)
that i cant have more then +3° caster on both sides.. have you tried to set more caster on your car? because i did.. i ended up with -1,2° camber and +3,1° caster on passanger side while the other side was like: +2,8-2,9° caster, but camber was crazy.. like close to -2° if not more.. cant remember now
D.

John V, outside agitator 06-29-2016 04:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 12david34 (Post 5424993)
yeah, im fighting with caster.. camber is just fine.. maybe a bit more than i wanted..

Caster?? Well I couldn't read the Czech or Slovak the machine display. I pushed the buttons on the photo to display English or German, or French or Italian--anything else but pushing the button on the photo didn't change the display...I think the machine must be broken.

If the car has a few degrees more castor, and IF you have PS then don't worry, you will have a bit, a tiny bit more feeling and the car will self center better--which is good when you do high speed linked turns or recovering when you do big sideways drifts around traffic rondels or fountains. I personally shoot for at least 4 degrees castor on my cars

John V, outside agitator 06-29-2016 04:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 12david34 (Post 5424998)
hey man, im glad you posted this.. seriously.thank you
i just dont understand hows that possible..(maybe the answer is in Johns comment?!)
that i cant have more then +3° caster on both sides.. have you tried to set more caster on your car? because i did.. i ended up with -1,2° camber and +3,1° caster on passanger side while the other side was like: +2,8-2,9° caster, but camber was crazy.. like close to -2° if not more.. cant remember now
D.

Dont forget that the strut towers where the normal top mount studs stick thru is slotted quite a lot.. so you have the fancy-schmantzy adjustable things but the bodyshell with slots is an extra factor...

12david34 06-29-2016 04:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John V, outside agitator (Post 5425001)
Caster?? Well I couldn't read the Czech or Slovak the machine display. I pushed the buttons on the photo to display English or German, or French or Italian--anything else but pushing the button on the photo didn't change the display...I think the machine must be broken.

If the car has a few degrees more castor, and IF you have PS then don't worry, you will have a bit, a tiny bit more feeling and the car will self center better--which is good when you do high speed linked turns or recovering when you do big sideways drifts around traffic rondels or fountains. I personally shoot for at least 4 degrees castor on my cars

John that what im talking about whole time.. i want to set as more caster as possible.. but it cant be done without going into very negative camber..
let me explain..
we have a passanger side, which can be adjusted easy peasy.. i had no problem to adjust it at -1 camber and +3 caster.
the problem starts at the drivers side, where i used same method as on the opposite side, but using the same metod ended up with +2,8 or +2,9caster, but the camber was very close to -2°, so that means im not sure if im dumb, but i just couldnt set the caster at +3° without leaving the caster -1,5° or more.. everytime i tried to reduce camber i reduced caster too..

culberro 06-29-2016 05:10 PM

If you want more caster, can you rotate the top mounts 90deg and then move the strut too back? This should allow you to adjust camber with the factory slots.

Canuck 06-29-2016 09:57 PM

My 242 has only 1.5 degrees of caster with -2 degrees of camber - it goes down the highway just fine and bites pretty hard in a corner. I'd say you're doing pretty well with the set up you have.


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 03:49 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions Inc.