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-   -   244Ti Stage Rally Project (https://forums.tbforums.com/showthread.php?t=327882)

pat244ti 12-06-2016 10:30 AM

244Ti Stage Rally Project
 
Once upon a time, I really wanted to do rally with my other 244ti. Stage rally is what got me into liking Volvo 240's, but what kept me away from doing it was the nice bodywork and paint on that car. I decided to stick with road courses.

Over the course of time, I did hit the dirt. Just not rally. I ran dirt track at the local mudhole in 2012 & 2013 in a hobby stock and did fairly well for not having any experience. At least in my own mind, mostly because I was beating more experienced drivers with way more help that had WAY more engine than I did.

http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n...ps169cda45.jpg

I rallycrossed a 760 a little bit last year, and thought about doing stage rally with it but honestly, I felt a 240 would be a more solid choice. Once I had to smog that car, and also with the M46 busted in it, I sent it off to Valhalla.

http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n...psm5n4yvlu.jpg

I had thoughts about buying a certain infamous 242 rally car, but started thinking it might be a little too much for me at first.

I mostly was searching for a 244 shell for rally because I hear they are a tad stiffer, easier to find sheetmetal for and honestly, I always have been more of a 4 door guy. Hence my username.

So last week, I picked up this 244 Turbo from a longtime Volvo friend [Noah244ti] for almost free [he did not want anything other than a few parts to keep off it, but I bought him some cool clothes for his baby boy]. It has a high mile B21FT and an M46 [with a bent clutch fork] which will be going out.

http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n...psqurdzc8i.jpg

It is currently at the shop of Alfalfa Rallysport [Megulon-7] where we will begin the major prep - rollcage/chassis/etc.

I am undecided on the engine, I have a sweet ass B23FT for it as well as a T5 trans but I am thinking of sticking that trans behind a B230F while I get my coefficients out of the way, and honestly just figure out how this rally game works.

Stay tuned!

John V, outside agitator 12-06-2016 10:35 AM

"What does it take to be a good WRC rally driver? Oh that's easy! You need a big foot and an empty head" Marcus Grönholm.

Tfrasca 12-06-2016 10:41 AM

I'm glad this worked out for both of you. I would have hated to see that car get crushed.

John V, outside agitator 12-06-2016 10:53 AM

Bear n mind it is only the one sanctioning body "Wawwy Amwica" which has the stupid rule "no turbo for noobies"... NASA and CARS (Canada) doesn't. And it is unknown if the new allegedly "membership oriented" ARA does or not...

But Wawwy Amerwica is collapsing rapidly as a sanctioning body as it has been run by one family as a plaything for the Daddy's children who had zero prior involvement in rally in any form and who thought all they have to do is flood the world with over hyped "Immediate release " press releases and as junior said on his Faceplace page "leverage symbiotic relationships and the way we aggregate our community. Let's please silo our efforts.
Our vector is the most high level thing at our company. Do your best to cross-pollinate it and with the viral way you horizontally treated this ultimate transaction so with boots on the ground will be key to our ability to unpack the enterprise literally. And in the coming year, we need to vertically future-proof our brand. we need to literally aggregate our value add, and then the sponsorship follows will flood in and we'll all make millions"
What could possibly go wrong?

Shell and cage is no1 and suspension and shell/cage/suspension are kinda linked.
Motor and final drive are also linked....Gearbox choice is tied to the shape of the powerband...

Al should show you the rear shocks (and Paypal me some gawddam dough for the latest ones) and the tower set up. It really changes the way the car works---for the better.

pat244ti 12-06-2016 02:12 PM

I'm hopeful ARA's regulations are not like that of RA's so I can run a turbo. RA's 2017 schedule has almost nothing on the west coast, aside from Idaho.

CRS mostly runs NASA sanctioning so I'm in the clear for Gorman Ridge, Frazier Park and Mendocino.

John V, outside agitator 12-06-2016 06:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pat244ti (Post 5516707)
I'm hopeful ARA's regulations are not like that of RA's so I can run a turbo. RA's 2017 schedule has almost nothing on the west coast, aside from Idaho.

CRS mostly runs NASA sanctioning so I'm in the clear for Gorman Ridge, Frazier Park and Mendocino.

I very gently asked the question on their Flaced-tubez page...

The current rules at Wawwy Amewica are glaringly and mind shatteringly stupid..
A guy cannot have a pokey old Volvo Turdboat making what? 160 hp or a fawkin Xratty at 175 hp but that same guy could run out and buy a 1995 E36 M3 3,0 with 240 hp and 225 ft/lbs or even crazier, and old late 90s 2,0 F2 car with 260hp 2,0 naturally aspirated HPs and way wicked cr box and short final and those cars would be "no danger"...
Flat imbecilic (and givens a good glimpse how well thought out things were at RA.)

I'll let ya know if the bother to respond.

pat244ti 12-07-2016 10:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John V, outside agitator (Post 5516897)
I very gently asked the question on their Flaced-tubez page...

The current rules at Wawwy Amewica are glaringly and mind shatteringly stupid..
A guy cannot have a pokey old Volvo Turdboat making what? 160 hp or a fawkin Xratty at 175 hp but that same guy could run out and buy a 1995 E36 M3 3,0 with 240 hp and 225 ft/lbs or even crazier, and old late 90s 2,0 F2 car with 260hp 2,0 naturally aspirated HPs and way wicked cr box and short final and those cars would be "no danger"...
Flat imbecilic (and givens a good glimpse how well thought out things were at RA.)

I'll let ya know if the bother to respond.

I was going to reach out to them soon too, I'd like to find out cause my goal is to debut it at Olympus.

pat244ti 12-11-2016 03:01 PM

Made the trip up to Novato this weekend and was pleased to see how much progress Al made. So I proceeded to rip the rest of the car up for him

http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n...sp6sixk7t.jpeghttp://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n...sn0byapdw.jpeghttp://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n...sxbuzv4wh.jpeghttp://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n...sj4byg0ms.jpeghttp://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n...safe6ngov.jpeghttp://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n...so5xzvs4d.jpeghttp://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n...sjfmn4lne.jpeghttp://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n...sqkmr4e1y.jpeghttp://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n...semiwhkul.jpeghttp://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n...saybyzo8n.jpeghttp://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n...sugbmdtkm.jpeg
Found the drivers side firewall plate had cracked at the clutch cable.
http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n...swqnkqwxm.jpeg
Worked late into the night and decided to sleep in the car instead of my truck

brendon_ak 12-11-2016 05:11 PM

I love reading your Lemons recaps, can't wait to see what this turns into!

pat244ti 12-12-2016 03:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brendon_ak (Post 5519963)
I love reading your Lemons recaps, can't wait to see what this turns into!

Thanks!

I look forward to finishing it. Rally is what got me into Volvos anyhow

pat244ti 12-15-2016 01:31 PM

Al sent a little update on the door bar mockup yesterday. Looking good.

http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n...pswv6g27bz.jpg

I've been mostly sick this week but I have started laying out the wiring harness from the car and thinning out stuff, as well as pulling the engine out for the car

http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n...pslfpjfpzq.jpg

I think this is the third car I have had plans to put this motor in. The last two attempts it never left the stand, third times a charm?

It's a B23FT bottom end with an RSI stage 1 head and cam. I have a B21F intake that has been modded for EFI & a 960 throttle body that will go on it. For a turbo I am planning on running a 16T & 90+. I think with this combo of stuff and the right gearing it won't be too peaky and make the right amount of controllable/useable power.

Plan for fuel is to run 2.2 & 240T breakerless ignition. To sneak it though smog I'll be running the stock 240T K-Jet airbox without a fuel distributor on it and also have been thinking of picking up a stock looking intercooler [DO88 or an NPR]

For the trans I have a T5 and most of the bits for the swap all ready to go. I plan on opening up the T5 I have, because the tag on it says it's not a Z box but it has "Z" paint penned on some spots and a few scribes on it like it was rebuilt. I'll have to open it up and look because I want to have the right gearing in this thing. Still need to do more calculating but probably going to run something like a 4.30 R&P.

John V, outside agitator 12-15-2016 03:01 PM

http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n...pswv6g27bz.jpg

You have three choices of door bar configuration...

This
http://finess.se/wp-content/uploads/200-500-600.jpg

This:
http://finess.se/wp-content/uploads/200-500-600V.jpg

or

http://finess.se/wp-content/uploads/200-500-600Y.jpg

That does not meet the rules or look like something that would pass..

Who is smoking what and getting "creative"? The scrutineers are not creative people, they are kinda rigid and at the same time capricious. The No1 thing to do ---assuming you want approval---is to supply them something conservative, and conventional...not to make them think or wonder. The chance is they well make an arbitray yes-no but THE NEXT tech inspector may see otherwise..
I'd flunk that on sight.

Whose idea was it?

John V, outside agitator 12-15-2016 03:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pat244ti (Post 5522574)

It's a B23FT bottom end with an RSI stage 1 head and cam. I have a B21F intake that has been modded for EFI & a 960 throttle body that will go on it. For a turbo I am planning on running a 16T & 90+. I think with this combo of stuff and the right gearing it won't be too peaky and make the right amount of controllable/useable power..

I'll be 100% honest---I don't ever think about any Misterbitchy Turbos cause none of the cars I've ever owned came with one but I see this "16T" a lot so its sunk into my thick skull because of frequent repetition but just name recognition...

Forgive me but...isn't 16T some microscopic little tiny thang that came OEM on some Volvos?

How is a microscopic little itty-bitty baby little cam going to work with some cam? You look or have cam timing figures for whatever that so called Stage 1 thing is? Ya know Intake opens xx* BTDC, intake closes xy* ABDC blah blah? Have you compared the whatever to a T cam?? This is where I think a lotta guys go wrong...especially for the type of power and the type of delivery we want and that really works well with the ratios in the box...

But truth is I've only driven a few Misterbitchi turbo powered car which happened to be some Mistsubishi Eclipsed and Gaylant things and so my impressions---(-laggier than fawk and no go till a little squirt after 3500, then early sign-off) are limited.

Harlard 12-15-2016 03:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John V, outside agitator (Post 5522648)
I'll be 100% honest---I don't ever think about any Misterbitchy Turbos cause none of the cars I've ever owned came with one but I see this "16T" a lot so its sunk into my thick skull because of frequent repetition but just name recognition...

Forgive me but...isn't 16T some microscopic little tiny thang that came OEM on some Volvos?

How is a microscopic little itty-bitty baby little cam going to work with some cam? You look or have cam timing figures for whatever that so called Stage 1 thing is? Ya know Intake opens xx* BTDC, intake closes xy* ABDC blah blah? Have you compared the whatever to a T cam?? This is where I think a lotta guys go wrong...especially for the type of power and the type of delivery we want and that really works well with the ratios in the box...

But truth is I've only driven a few Misterbitchi turbo powered car which happened to be some Mistsubishi Eclipsed and Gaylant things and so my impressions---(-laggier than fawk and no go till a little squirt after 3500, then early sign-off) are limited.

Those are significantly bigger

noz-e8tr 12-15-2016 04:06 PM

Is that even possible? lol

Quote:

Originally Posted by John V, outside agitator (Post 5516897)
I very gently asked ..........


John V, outside agitator 12-15-2016 04:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Harlard (Post 5522668)
Those are significantly bigger


Junge junge junge bigger als was? Größer als was? welcher Weise größer.
Verdammt Scheiße sieht winzig oder schwülig als normal langweilig Xratty T3..

acuerdo?

John V, outside agitator 12-15-2016 04:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by noz-e8tr (Post 5522675)
Is that even possible? lol


I am actually the gentlest and kindest of souls, you know that...I wish peace and happiness to everybody...And I know every poster ever here have all been brilliant posts with wonderful and brilliant ideas, every single one..Its just a question of how brilliant one idea is compared to other brilliant ideas...

pat244ti 12-15-2016 04:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John V, outside agitator (Post 5522648)
I'll be 100% honest---I don't ever think about any Misterbitchy Turbos cause none of the cars I've ever owned came with one but I see this "16T" a lot so its sunk into my thick skull because of frequent repetition but just name recognition...

Forgive me but...isn't 16T some microscopic little tiny thang that came OEM on some Volvos?

How is a microscopic little itty-bitty baby little cam going to work with some cam? You look or have cam timing figures for whatever that so called Stage 1 thing is? Ya know Intake opens xx* BTDC, intake closes xy* ABDC blah blah? Have you compared the whatever to a T cam?? This is where I think a lotta guys go wrong...especially for the type of power and the type of delivery we want and that really works well with the ratios in the box...

But truth is I've only driven a few Misterbitchi turbo powered car which happened to be some Mistsubishi Eclipsed and Gaylant things and so my impressions---(-laggier than fawk and no go till a little squirt after 3500, then early sign-off) are limited.

I'm not trying to go too deep in the numbers with the turbo or the cam, since I am on my phone right now but from my own personal experience a similar turbo & cam I liked how it was in the 760 and I'm sure with more careful gearing selection it would be plenty fine for what I am trying to achieve (decent driveability/good reliability), which is something quick and responsive (and easy/cheap to replace if it breaks)

Harlard 12-15-2016 04:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John V, outside agitator (Post 5522693)
Junge junge junge bigger als was? Größer als was? welcher Weise größer.
Verdammt Scheiße sieht winzig oder schwülig als normal langweilig Xratty T3..

acuerdo?

Viel größer als die TD04HL-Serie. Die TD05-16G sollte ungefähr der Selbstegröße als der Cosworth TB03-Lader sein. Warum sie so langsam zu spulen wären ist eine Question der Tuning und Qualität der Handwerkskunst der Motoren.

Kannst du noch mir erzählen, warum meinen GTX nur am ungefähr 3700 Drehzahl Oberdruck sieht?

pat244ti 12-15-2016 05:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John V, outside agitator (Post 5522638)
http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n...pswv6g27bz.jpg

You have three choices of door bar configuration...

This
http://finess.se/wp-content/uploads/200-500-600.jpg

This:
http://finess.se/wp-content/uploads/200-500-600V.jpg

or

http://finess.se/wp-content/uploads/200-500-600Y.jpg

That does not meet the rules or look like something that would pass..

Who is smoking what and getting "creative"? The scrutineers are not creative people, they are kinda rigid and at the same time capricious. The No1 thing to do ---assuming you want approval---is to supply them something conservative, and conventional...not to make them think or wonder. The chance is they well make an arbitray yes-no but THE NEXT tech inspector may see otherwise..
I'd flunk that on sight.

Whose idea was it?

Its already been ok'ed by one inspector and I'm sure the next one that looks at it and factors in the small door opening and my height (6'5) will ok it as well.

swedishiron.com 12-15-2016 07:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Harlard (Post 5522700)
Viel größer als die TD04HL-Serie. Die TD05-16G sollte ungefähr der Selbstegröße als der Cosworth TB03-Lader sein. Warum sie so langsam zu spulen wären ist eine Question der Tuning und Qualität der Handwerkskunst der Motoren.

Kannst du noch mir erzählen, warum meinen GTX nur am ungefähr 3700 Drehzahl Oberdruck sieht?

In stock form, the 16T connected to a whiteblock 5 cylinder generates up to 260 horsepower with modest boost levels and a stock tune. Crank the boost to 12 psi or more, and you'll get 300+ HP from that set up.

pat244ti 12-16-2016 09:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by swedishiron.com (Post 5522780)
In stock form, the 16T connected to a whiteblock 5 cylinder generates up to 260 horsepower with modest boost levels and a stock tune. Crank the boost to 12 psi or more, and you'll get 300+ HP from that set up.

This.

I'm only shooting for 200whp with the 16T and I don't really feel like that is asking too much out of it.

More focused on making the car fairly easy to drive so I can finish rallies. That's really my only goal for the time being

pat244ti 12-19-2016 05:17 AM

http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n...psbgb5y9hg.jpg

Went up and worked on the car today.

http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n...pstcup0y1t.jpg

Almost the whole cage is mocked up and ready to be welded in

http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n...psjhvbdwl9.jpg

Proceeded to take all the bars out and went to removing the hump in the floor where the factory seats mount. My first time using a spot weld drill bit. Some of the angles can be a pain in the butt, but got it out after about an hour and a half later.

BillyMaysHere 12-19-2016 07:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John V, outside agitator (Post 5522697)
I am actually the gentlest and kindest of souls, you know that...I wish peace and happiness to everybody...And I know every poster ever here have all been brilliant posts with wonderful and brilliant ideas, every single one..Its just a question of how brilliant one idea is compared to other brilliant ideas...

sigged

quillc 12-19-2016 10:18 AM

That main hoop is super far back.


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