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-   -   Spring Rate Data (https://forums.tbforums.com/showthread.php?t=325739)

mikep 09-28-2016 11:28 AM

Spring Rate Data
 
Starting the spring thread that was requested.
I will edit it as we go, adding numbers and deleting extraneous comments.
Please comment, and please offer to loan sets of springs if you remove KNOWN OE springs to change anything. I would also test any lowering or overload springs you can loan me.
I'm at the south end of Delaware, and can meet somewhere else if we can work it out.

Quotes from another thread:

Quote:

Originally Posted by mikep (Post 5374501)
I did all the springs a long time ago and found varying results. The first numbers posted above were probably from measuring the wire plus paint. I do remember a wagon rear spring being around that number. Then I lost that notebook.

Since I couldn't find any numbers, I started over.
I just measured the springs from a mid-80s CT 244 that went to the crusher.

Front Springs 80 lb/inch.
Rear Springs 91 lb/inch.

Scraped off the paint and undercoating, measured, did the math. Pretty close.

Maybe that wagon with 117# had overloads, but 117 and 107 aren't that far apart. Plus the 117 might have been measuring and using a calculator.
And maybe the 120# fronts that were mentioned were GT or Diesel springs. I really wish I had the diesel springs I got rid of.



Quote:

Originally Posted by mikep (Post 5381504)
*edit
I measured how much pressure it took to compress each spring, and retested each run. Then I increased the pre-load, so I got numbers starting at 40, 50, 60, 70, 80lbs. That's TEN tests per spring.


I will have turbo wagon (US) from the junkyard as soon as I have the money to pay for the front suspension. Until then, nobody has offered to let me test any springs at all. I do what I can.
I'll test another mid-80s sedan soon, and also a non-turbo 940 wagon.

(I paid for the suspension, haven't seen it yet in the several months, even when I told him to drag it here and let me remove it.


Quote:

Originally Posted by John V, outside agitator (Post 5381548)
Mike, sticky somewhere?

Done. At least, it's a start.


Yesterday I tested 1992 wagon rears. They were a little off side to side.
One was 97 pound/inch, one was 107. Looking for another set.

I have another 240 sedan that I will test soon, and I will try to get these fronts tested. Had some issues with a brake line, and it's changeover day for the exploratory class.

mikep 09-28-2016 11:34 AM

so, just measured numbers:
 
1988 Hartford CT 244
Front springs 80 lb/in
449mm (17-5/8") free length
166mm overall Diameter
13.2mm (.520") wire diameter
5.5 free coils
11.5" installed height hanging
8.5" installed height sitting

Rear 91 lb/in
415mm (16-3/8") free length
129mm overall Diameter
11.85mm (.466") wire diameter
7.5 free coils
15.25" installed height hanging
12.25" installed height sitting

mikep 09-29-2016 08:30 PM

92 245
Front springs 79 and 80 lb/in
445mm (17-1/2") free length
167mm overall Diameter
13.6mm (.540") wire diameter
5.5 free coils
___ installed height

Rear 97/107#
449mm (16-5/8") free length (will recheck)
129mm overall Diameter
13mm (.510") wire diameter
8 free coils
___ installed height

mikep 10-05-2016 03:43 PM

added numbers, separated into posts.
If there's an inch with fractions, it was a tape measure. If a decimal, it was a dial caliper.
I scraped off the paint with a knife for the wire dia.

I did not use math to get the rates. I used a scale and a dial indicator on a compressing fixture.
When I have time, I will go to NASCAR-land with some springs to see how close my rig was.

mikep 11-16-2016 11:21 AM

Added installed data for the sedan. The guinea pig was a 1983 Canadian 244 with no carpet.

lummert 08-29-2017 08:12 PM

http://www.kilensprings.com/springs-...ecatalogue.asp

mikep 02-09-2018 04:48 PM

old IPD sport black springs from Mike Rausch.
I will add pics later.
Only measured one each.

Front spring 137 lb/in
330mm (13") free length
6.5" overall Diameter
14.27mm (.562") wire diameter (paint rubbed through)
4-1/8 free coils
___ installed height

Rear 148#
343mm (13.5"") free length
5" overall Diameter
12.7-12.8mm (.500-.505") wire diameter (varies, did not clean off paint)
6 free coils
___ installed height

Should ride like **** with the 1.5:1 motion ratio squared in back.
Rear vert rate would be 222lb/inch.
Front you lose a little, so 130-ish.
If I had that much rate out back I'd want at least 250 in front to keep it from pitching.

mikep 02-15-2018 10:12 PM

Taking the IPD springs and the wagon springs to NASCAR-land for checking on Sunday. That way I will know how far off my rig is. I may also purchase a load cell to replace my freight scale.

shoestring 02-16-2018 02:43 PM

Thumbs up

bent-grill 02-21-2018 04:38 PM

as a guy at the "selecting a spring rate for coil overs" point I await your results with baited breath. (the grossest type of breath.)

mikep 02-28-2018 12:11 PM

hit "post" too soon. hang on a minute..

I took 2 sets of springs to Drew for testing. Both have been tested on my home-made rig.

1992 245 springs, one of the rears was lower than the other, possible changed to a sedan spring. I took the higher of the two.

Early (244?) IPD Sport Springs, borrowed from Mike Rausch.

IPD rear, waiting to be molested.
http://www.pbase.com/mperry/image/167033395.jpg

Waiting for the computer to get its head together.
http://www.pbase.com/mperry/image/167033396.jpg

Stuff to make things stiffer on the fly. Everything gets tested, and springs stick around the longest of any NASCAR team part.
http://www.pbase.com/mperry/image/167033397.jpg

IPD front on the right, fancy coilover stop spring on the left. That's what it rides on at high speed.
http://www.pbase.com/mperry/image/167033398.jpg

Gross adjustment slider clamp bolts
http://www.pbase.com/mperry/image/167033399.jpg

Talking smack to the program, telling it what it needs to do for us.
http://www.pbase.com/mperry/image/167033401.jpg

You have to put in measuring blocks to let the machine measure the height of the retainer/spacer the spring will sit on.
http://www.pbase.com/mperry/image/167033402.jpg

Like SO.
http://www.pbase.com/mperry/image/167033403.jpg

But IF you forget, (and it seems someone did) and hit it with a load instead of clicking the right "test", this might happen:
http://www.pbase.com/mperry/image/167033405.jpg

Test complete. But what does it mean? 150 lb/in for the rear, but wait. There's more!
http://www.pbase.com/mperry/image/167033409.jpg

Avg. pressure, including harmonics and cell noise and ****.
http://www.pbase.com/mperry/image/167033411.jpg

http://www.pbase.com/mperry/image/167033414.jpg

Next up, IPD front.
http://www.pbase.com/mperry/image/167033417.jpg

Test #2 complete, with Test #1 graph behind it. 146 lb/in. Might as well call that another 150.
http://www.pbase.com/mperry/image/167033421.jpg

Test #2 graph.
http://www.pbase.com/mperry/image/167033423.jpg

Front 245 time.
http://www.pbase.com/mperry/image/167033428.jpg

Poncy little 95 pounder.
http://www.pbase.com/mperry/image/167033432.jpg

The low start is due to the imperfect tail in the seat.
http://www.pbase.com/mperry/image/167033435.jpg

You could call this a 100 lb/in spring.
http://www.pbase.com/mperry/image/167033437.jpg

Rear 245 time.
http://www.pbase.com/mperry/image/167033441.jpg

http://www.pbase.com/mperry/image/167033443.jpg

117#
http://www.pbase.com/mperry/image/167033446.jpg
Front and rear 245 overlaid.
http://www.pbase.com/mperry/image/167033450.jpg

http://www.pbase.com/mperry/image/167033452.jpg

http://www.pbase.com/mperry/image/167033455.jpg

IPD rear and stock wagon rear compared.
http://www.pbase.com/mperry/image/167033463.jpg

IPD front and 245 front compared.
http://www.pbase.com/mperry/image/167033466.jpg

mikep 02-28-2018 12:31 PM

My first round of tests, I used wood to spread the load on my scale (an old shipping scale with springs inside, sheet steel housing, dial indicator).
Follow-up tests to compare my methods with Drews, I used a steel plate (old rail/tie connector) but with wood on top.
Where I was off 10-15# before, this time I was much closer.

I plan to buy a load cell to see if I can improve more.

I will take 240 sedan springs and 740 wagon springs down next time, and any other springs I can get my hands on.

bent-grill 03-02-2018 04:56 PM

wow, actual data, this is great! thanks so much for all the schlepping.

blkaplan 03-02-2018 05:17 PM

Im surprised they are so even front to rear in rate.

mikep 03-02-2018 10:40 PM

The old ipds? Me too. They were probably unaware of motion ratio. Most of us were then.

shoestring 03-03-2018 01:30 PM

Science, motherf'ers. That's what's up.

Thanks for this.

blkaplan 03-08-2018 11:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mikep (Post 5760724)
The old ipds? Me too. They were probably unaware of motion ratio. Most of us were then.

IPD has never been known for their engineering prowess :lol:

double-duel 04-24-2018 10:31 PM

i gave mike P a set of ipd 740 sedan springs. i am really curious to see what springs rates they're !

mikep 05-01-2018 02:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by double-duel (Post 5787224)
i gave mike P a set of ipd 740 sedan springs. i am really curious to see what springs rates they're !

I will probably get them from Pete this weekend. Thanks.

dl242gt 05-08-2018 11:35 PM

Are the IPD springs you tested wagon version or sedan? I missed it if you specified. I was thinking they might be the wagon version looking at that rate.

Thanks for this Mike!

mikep 05-10-2018 01:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dl242gt (Post 5793781)
Are the IPD springs you tested wagon version or sedan? I missed it if you specified. I was thinking they might be the wagon version looking at that rate.

Thanks for this Mike!

Sedan. I found another set, too. I will test those when I test the 7 series IPDs and anything else I find.
Probably going to take the stock 945 springs off when I head back down.

petebee 05-12-2018 08:46 AM

[QUOTE=

Should ride like **** with the 1.5:1 motion ratio squared in back.
Rear vert rate would be 222lb/inch.
Front you lose a little, so 130-ish.
If I had that much rate out back I'd want at least 250 in front to keep it from pitching.[/QUOTE]

So I understand, it sounds like a car with old black IPD springs is undersprung at the front? Where are you testing these springs? I live in Mooresville right in the thick of Nascar :rofl:

I have a 1990 240 Wagon with black IPDs and Bilstein HDs and the ride is not great.

Mueller 05-12-2018 11:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by petebee (Post 5795492)
So I understand, it sounds like a car with old black IPD springs is undersprung at the front? Where are you testing these springs? I live in Mooresville right in the thick of Nascar :rofl:

I have a 1990 240 Wagon with black IPDs and Bilstein HDs and the ride is not great.

One of the coolest race shops I've ever had the pleasure of getting a private one-on-one tour of. :)

(Went to N.C. for a Fanuc class)

Mike, it would be nice to have a link in this thread or maybe a sticky of your other spring information for our cars.

mikep 05-16-2018 12:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by petebee (Post 5795492)
So I understand, it sounds like a car with old black IPD springs is undersprung at the front? Where are you testing these springs? I live in Mooresville right in the thick of Nascar :rofl:

I have a 1990 240 Wagon with black IPDs and Bilstein HDs and the ride is not great.

Yes, I think the IPD black springs should be split up and the rear paired with stiffer fronts, the fronts paired with softer rears.

Drew's work is where we did the graphs. I stay with Drew near lake norman when I'm there.
I do a low-budget test here at work (high school auto tech shop) with a dial indicator and a scale. It comes pretty close.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mueller (Post 5795689)
One of the coolest race shops I've ever had the pleasure of getting a private one-on-one tour of. :)

(Went to N.C. for a Fanuc class)

Mike, it would be nice to have a link in this thread or maybe a sticky of your other spring information for our cars.

Yep, it's an insanely nice shop (or set of shops).

I have some broken links in the stock car spring threads, and I haven't looked for towery's threads lately. He started using stock car springs in the rear, I stole his idea. He also did the pvc sleeves with coilover springs.
If I have time after the seniors leave next week, I'll put in some links.

mikep 06-19-2018 09:47 PM

Still looking for loan or donation of stock 740 springs and any early stuff.
Iíll do WWD as well.

Going to Charlotte again at the end of June.


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