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-   -   Multi purpose suspension setup, for track/drift (amateur) events (https://forums.tbforums.com/showthread.php?t=346326)

Msi 12-01-2018 06:18 PM

Multi purpose suspension setup, for track/drift (amateur) events
 
Hello everyone, newbie here, please be gentle :)

Some background info:

The ride - 940 sedan, 1996, b200ft, automatic transmission 3-speed + overdrive

Condition is mint. Stock all around, with the exception of new Bilstein B4 in all 4 corners.

Mainly, this car needs to be able to happily go sideways but also should corner well. No competition stuff, just track/drift days with fellow petrolheads.

Also, bricks are completely underated where I live, so I'm hoping to show some example at events, and maybe more people will follow :)

So, with the exception of of changing tyres per each event, I need to achieve a multi purpose suspension setup, that will serve me well enough for both track and drift events - amateur, no pro/competition stuff. I'm prepared to give up any ride comfort and throw in a couple of bucket seats. Obviously, everything needs to be done on the cheap side, so I'll fab whatever I can, with a grinder and a stick weld.

I've read about a lot of suspension mods, here on TB and elsewhere, but I do not know what mods to invest in and in which order, starting with the most effective once.

So, here are the mods that I'm aware of and currently planning to do. Please review and let me know, what should I add/drop from the list, and in which order should these be done, if matters.

1) double sway bars, front/rear, as stiff as I can find'em from a junkyard
2) diy strut brace, anchored to the firewall
3) diy chassis brase
4) beefing up the trailing arms with some weld-on plates
5) lowering, currently staying on the Bilstein B4s and just cut the OEM springs. Still researching how much to cut. If the B4 will go bust, I'll upgrade to B6s later on.
6) adjustable torque and panhard rods, to make corrections due to lowering, or is this required only for extreme lowering?
7) camber mod
8) some kind of steering angle enhancement, still researching about that

There can be no roll cage, as it will render the car road illegal, and I can't have that.

Am I missing something? Am I planning unnecessary mods?

Thanks in advance,
Matthew.

apachechef 12-01-2018 06:51 PM

Happy Sweet Sixteen!

Msi 12-01-2018 07:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by apachechef (Post 5889226)
Happy Sweet Sixteen!

May as well be. My wife says I'm a juvenile when it comes to me and old cars :)

centason 12-01-2018 07:03 PM

Where are you on this planet?

Msi 12-01-2018 07:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by centason (Post 5889231)
Where are you on this planet?

Israel

centason 12-01-2018 07:50 PM

If you have a little leeway in your budget, you may want to look at https://www.classicswede.co.uk He is a member here also. He provides lowering springs that would be better than just cutting springs. Maybe upgrade to Bilstein B8 and call it a day. I'd take one rear sway off. If it handles like it's on rails, it's not going to corner well with such a stiff rear. Needs some articulation back there to hold traction or you run the risk of lifting a rear tire. Springs and correct shocks completely change the dynamics of the car. And it's still good for daily driving. The B4 shocks may not like the cut springs and just become annoying.

Msi 12-01-2018 08:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by centason (Post 5889245)
If you have a little leeway in your budget, you may want to look at https://www.classicswede.co.uk He is a member here also. He provides lowering springs that would be better than just cutting springs.

I did that. A set of 60/40 lowering springs will set me back 125GBP +80GBP for shipping. The shipping costs, just pisses me off...

Quote:

Originally Posted by centason (Post 5889245)
I'd take one rear sway off. If it handles like it's on rails, it's not going to corner well with such a stiff rear. Needs some articulation back there to hold traction or you run the risk of lifting a rear tire.

This is the kind of a know-how info I was looking for, thanks for the pointer!!

Question: If I was doing the listed above mods one at a time, so I could try and test how it goes after each one, in what order should I go about it? So I could, at some point say, "okay, this is stiff enough" and stop there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by centason (Post 5889245)
Maybe upgrade to Bilstein B8 and call it a day.

Springs and correct shocks completely change the dynamics of the car. And it's still good for daily driving. The B4 shocks may not like the cut springs and just become annoying.

I will most likely, eventually, bite the bullet and purchase a proper lowering kit, because this is what it comes down to.

I just bought the car and the B4s were there, brand new. And I will not forgive myself if I don't try what it's like going on cut springs.

So, in the list of suspension mods, that I've compiled above (now minus the extra rear sway bar) the lowering line will eventually be a proper lowering kit. But for starters, I'll just cut them OEM springs and give the B4s hell :).

Wesdunns70t5m 12-01-2018 10:15 PM

Iíd cut my fronts 2 coils and my rears 2.5. Iím not sure what shocks are in there now as itís got nivomats from the factory, but not when I bought it. They look like they were taken from a donor car, so stock?. Ride height is noticeably lower, but not slammed.

esmth 12-02-2018 02:27 AM

you'll need a trans cooler or it'll eat itself soon enough trying to drift. do the accumulator mod on the trans, too

don't cut the springs. go straight for good stuff. 80gbp (100USD) for shipping is cheap for sprangs, they are big. Just paid $120 to ship an NA header from Sweden.

Msi 12-02-2018 02:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by esmth (Post 5889369)
you'll need a trans cooler or it'll eat itself soon enough trying to drift. do the accumulator mod on the trans, too

Was not aware about the trans cooler. Will read more on that. Thanks for the pointer!!

Quote:

Originally Posted by esmth (Post 5889369)
don't cut the springs. go straight for good stuff. 80gbp (100USD) for shipping is cheap for sprangs, they are big. Just paid $120 to ship an NA header from Sweden.

I need to educate myself on the matter of springs. How do I tell the good stuff apart from generic rubbish? What do I need to know?

centason 12-02-2018 03:28 AM

Classicswede sells good products. Most suppliers that have "performance" oriented products for these cars tend not to sell crap, 90% of the time, because the community is so small.

classicswede 12-02-2018 02:37 PM

I would forget the double anti roll bars.

2,3 and 4 if you have fabrication skill then should be cheap enough to do. You can do that as your first jobs.

5 chop off a coil at a time. When the B4's blow I would go in for Coilovers. They can still be decent as a daily driver and cost is not much more than lowering springs and half decent dampers.

6+7 do that once on Coilovers. Camber is then adjustable anyway. If Coilovers are not going to happen then do the basic camber mod early on.
8 if you are most using as a road car don't bother.

As suggested fit a oil cooler for the auto gearbox or it will quickly wear out.

A manual conversion would be high on my list but doing iron a way that will withstand some abuse is not cheap.

With shipping Israel is a pain so best email me with a shopping list to see what best shipping options are but as you probably already know its not a cheap country to ship to

Msi 12-02-2018 03:43 PM

Thank you classicswede, for this ^^^^ input. Exactly what a newbie needs, to sort out thoughts after reading many chassis mod threads. Perfect check list guide -).

Msi 12-02-2018 04:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by classicswede (Post 5889529)
2,3 and 4 if you have fabrication skill then should be cheap enough to do. You can do that as your first jobs.

Is stick welding going to cut it for these (2,3,4) points? That's what I have handy. Or, is stick welding is a big no-no in vehicle related fabrication? All I see here on TB is usually TIG/MIG talk...

classicswede 12-02-2018 04:09 PM

It is hard to weld thinner gauge steelbwith stick. Mig is the best option as a versatile machine and easy to use.

Hen 12-03-2018 09:26 AM

From my experience trying to make things drift for close to zero dollars, there are a few good areas to focus on.
- Get as much practice as you can. Even in a stock car. You'll improve and get to learn what parts of the car need upgrading.
- You will need a welded diff or decent LSD.
- Try running your rear tyre pressure really high. I've run up to 80psi. It helps with low power.
- Think about your wheel alignment. Some negative camber is good, enough caster so the wheel returns nicely to centre, and generally toe-out helps transitions when drifting. But find a combination that feels good for you.
- Twin- or a fat rar swaybar will help get you sliding while drifting. The track guys will tell you to remove the rear swaybar. You may have to install/remove them for each event.
- Adjust up your handbrake so it is super-tight (without dragging of course) and can lock the rears.
- A manual conversion so you can use the clutch would be a huge help drifting.
All the braces listed, adjustable rods and steering angle increases are not critical. Sure, nice to have if you have the choice, but not what I'd be looking at first up.

Good luck getting the thing working nicely.

Tentshedtrev 12-04-2018 01:37 AM

I'd say for drifting..

Absolutely necessary:
Welded diff
Good working e-brake
Some decent skinny tires (to start, of course, will make breaking traction easy)
Helmet
Track time! As much as you can, hit every event, even the boring rainy practice days, absolutely as much as possible!

Things that are nice, will help slide, but not needed on day one:
Double sways
Cut coils or some stiffer springs
Manual swap
Angle mods (way better to learn with stock angle..you will spin less once you work up to more angle)
Caster mods (you can slot out the strut tops or get some proper plates, me doing the first, I would have done the latter...)
Some good steer tires

Mostly just get out there and drive, people slide $200 80hp junk heaps just fine...it's just getting out there to figure out the limits of traction and how your particular car reacts!

white855T 12-04-2018 09:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Msi (Post 5889549)
Is stick welding going to cut it for these (2,3,4) points? That's what I have handy. Or, is stick welding is a big no-no in vehicle related fabrication? All I see here on TB is usually TIG/MIG talk...

As long as you're not welding to sheet metal, you'll be fine for the diy yourself strut bar and chassis brace. Fabricate the parts in a way that they will just bolt up. Its super easy to make these parts yourself.

blkaplan 12-04-2018 12:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Msi (Post 5889263)
I did that. A set of 60/40 lowering springs will set me back 125GBP +80GBP for shipping. The shipping costs, just pisses me off...

shalom!

bneshop.com also has a lot of options for you.

Msi 12-04-2018 01:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hen (Post 5889757)
Think about your wheel alignment. Some negative camber is good, enough caster so the wheel returns nicely to centre, and generally toe-out helps transitions when drifting.

Reading this I come to think that wheel alignment that is beneficial for track wouldn't work for drifting and vice versa. Am I wrong? Is this feasible to adjust per event? Or am I over my head with this and should just run two bricks, each adjusted for it's own purpose :)

Msi 12-04-2018 01:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tentshedtrev (Post 5890094)
Absolutely necessary:
Welded diff

Didn't open the diff yet, but I think I have a locker. Jacked the axle up, turned one wheel forward slowly, the other stayed put. When I turned it fast, the other started spinning backwards. AFAIU, this is a locker, right?

If it is, I hear that they are unpredictable on track. Should I swap it out for an opened one and weld it? Should I stock two rear ends and swap them out per event?

I think that I'm over thinking it :D

Msi 12-04-2018 01:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blkaplan (Post 5890198)
shalom!

bneshop.com also has a lot of options for you.

Shalom to you to!! Thanks for the pointer!!

VB242 12-04-2018 02:38 PM

IDK but drifting seems counterintuitive to going quickly, and it seems track and drift setups are completely opposite, maybe 2 cars would be better for your purposes.

towerymt 12-04-2018 02:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Msi (Post 5890234)
Didn't open the diff yet, but I think I have a locker. Jacked the axle up, turned one wheel forward slowly, the other stayed put. When I turned it fast, the other started spinning backwards. AFAIU, this is a locker, right?

If it is, I hear that they are unpredictable on track. Should I swap it out for an opened one and weld it? Should I stock two rear ends and swap them out per event?

I think that I'm over thinking it :D

There's usually a sticker on the axle tube. Driver's side, on the tube just left of the differential, and facing toward the back of the car. Carefully scrape off any under-coating (a razor blade works if you're careful. You can also hold the blade perpendicular do the axle tube and scrape off the coating). If the sticker has '1041', it is the locker. You'll want to modify the locker because it won't start locking up once you're above about 20mph.

Do a search for "locker", in titles only, in performance & modifications. The G80 locker can be modified by cutting off the counter-weight inside, and then it's best to weld the rod in place so the weight doesn't fly apart. The counter-weight is what keeps the locker from locking when wheel speed is above ~20mph. If you cut off this weight, the locker can begin locking at any wheel speed. It is not the best diff for racing or drifting and you may still get some inside wheel spin. I've used one of these modified G80 lockers for road racing and it worked well on medium corners, but very tight corners (2nd gear), it could allow inside wheel spin.

An open diff that you weld can be reliable and predictable. Bring extra axles because you will eventually break an axle shaft at the splines where it goes into the differential.

In general, I would suggest stiffer front springs and negative camber. The front doesn't need to be super low. I would keep the rear fairly soft. Keep the stock springs to start with. When you increase spring rate and sway bar size, you increase the speed of weight transfer. When you try drifting a stiffly sprung car, it's going to transition weight quickly and snap-oversteer if you are still learning car control in a slide (especially transitions). Start out soft, with low grip rear tires. You'll transition from one direction to the other slowly, and your speed will be lower. Increase rear grip, and your speed can increase. Increase spring rates, and you can transition quicker. You don't need a whole lot of changes to start drifting.

culberro 12-04-2018 04:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VB242 (Post 5890254)
IDK but drifting seems counterintuitive to going quickly, and it seems track and drift setups are completely opposite, maybe 2 cars would be better for your purposes.

I thought that too when I started out. I made a car that got sideways, but didn't go very fast.

Now it's basically a track day setup, and I add a bit more toe-out for drifting. Going from track to drift is a 1/4 turn per side of the tie-rods.
Car sits with zero toe, -2.0deg camber, 6.5deg caster. For drift I go toe-out 1.5deg total.

What I did on my 240:
BNE Select top mounts, max caster and camber setting.
KL Racing controls arms.
BNE Quick Steer Roll Correctors, set to fastest setting and +4 Ackerman
250lb/in front springs, cut wagon springs in the rear
28mm bar in the front, 23mm out back (will probably take this off)
Welded diff.


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