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-   -   T3/T4 not spooling in first (https://forums.tbforums.com/showthread.php?t=337827)

maxitoman007 11-22-2017 10:30 PM

T3/T4 not spooling in first
 
My 63 ar exhaust 60 ar cold side t3/t4 with stage 3 turbine and 60 trim comp wheel won't build full boost in first gear even at redline. My exhaust is 3" and short. In 2nd it can spool decently but still slow. Is this normal? What could cause this?

Wastegate was leaking but that is now fixed. Conditions above still apply

centason 11-22-2017 10:32 PM

Sounds like you have a boost leak on your Ford Pinto.

maxitoman007 11-22-2017 11:14 PM

Im pulling 20 mmHG vacuum warm so I don't think it could be a vacuum leak so you mean after the head? Exhaust system? How can you spot these?

turbotankshane 11-22-2017 11:29 PM

Lots of different things to look at. The .63 hotside is gonna make it spool a bit slow, but depending on how fast you are revving through first you may not be loading the engine enough to generate the boost you're after. I can get the same turbo on a stock b230ft to make 25-30 psi in first gear, but that's with a 3.06 first gear, 3.08 final drive and a 29" tall tire.. and it makes 30psi damn quick with some assistance.

What transmission?
What final drive?
Stock engine, or if not, what mods?
How much preload do you have on the actuator?
Do you have a boost controller or are you just on the spring?
What boost pressure is the wastegate rated for?

2manyturbos 11-22-2017 11:31 PM

The waste gate must be stuck open.

tryingbe 11-22-2017 11:35 PM

Pictures of your setup will only help.

maxitoman007 11-22-2017 11:51 PM

Ok so here is my mods list.

- Car is 1987 740 Turbo wagon with almost exactly 300 000 km
- upgraded to 13mm rods
- new rod bearings
- new piston rings
- cylinder ridges reamed
- cylinders re-honed using ball hone
- new head gasket
- head resurfaced
- carbon deposits in head cleaned out
- valves re seated
- replaced valve stem seals
- replaced valve hushers
- reshimed head (T cam)
- new front cam seal
- new valve cover seal
- upgraded injectors (brand new browntops)
- new intake manifold gasket
- upgraded intercooler (31x12x3)
- cone filter intake with bottom of intake area cut out or bent down for more air flow
- ebay turbo exhaust header (flange flipped)
- Almost new Garrett T3/T4 60AR intake 63AR exhaust turbo (rebuilt)
- upgraded oil braided steel turbo oil feed line
- new exhaust manifold gasket
- replaced exhaust manifold studs
- t3 to t3 wastegate adapter plate
- Turbonetics external wastegate
- wastegate dump to atmosphere out hood
- 2.5 inch exhaust out hood off turbo
- Greddy E-01 electronic boost controller
- prosport evo wideband
- autometer C2 boost gauge (only goes to 20 psi but EBC screen also had boost gauge)
- over boost switch bypassed
- amm and idle set for new injectors
- new spark plugs (NGK 7es)
- throttle body cleaned with new gasket
- flame trap/ PCV box cleaned
- Greddy catch can
- new oil pan gasket
- synthetic oil (Mobil one)
- 94 octane (with ethanol...) or shell 91
- new coolant
- new power steering fluid
- new coolant temp sensor
- ignition timing set to 14/15 degrees BTDC

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2manyturbos (Post 5709954)
The waste gate must be stuck open.

Don't think it's stuck open as I have a hood dump from external gate and can see it closed. Could be leaking though, I'm not sure.

EivlEvo 11-23-2017 12:10 AM

Stop thinking. Start checking.

Do a boost leak test.

maxitoman007 11-23-2017 12:14 AM

Yea, thinking of doing the ghetto "plug the intake and blow in the breather hose" method. Guess it can't be after the throttle body because of the strong vacuum I'm pulling. Just hoping it's a coupler or something and not a pesky exhaust leak.

Watched a video of a guy with a big hole in one of his couplers on a 740 and could still make 12 psi on a pretty big turbo. So it must be something obvious I'm thinking.

centason 11-23-2017 01:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2manyturbos (Post 5709954)
The waste gate must be stuck open.

:nod: if pulling good vacuum.

TurboDenny 11-23-2017 02:22 AM

We also had another member on here with a similar issue that accidentally left a rag in his intercooler pipe.

gsellstr 11-23-2017 02:25 AM

First suggestion, 90% of the list you've posted for mods, absolutely worthless as they are unrelated as a 'mod', makes it tedious to read thru. Food for thought as I've seen that list posted in a few threads.

Second, you've got a wastegate stuck open. I saw you have an external gate listed, is the internal gate locked shut or is the housing a non-gated housing?

I've got a .63 on the GT2871R, has absolutely no issue spooling in 1st, easily hit 20psi by 3500, even on a stock head.

maxitoman007 11-23-2017 02:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gsellstr (Post 5709996)
First suggestion, 90% of the list you've posted for mods, absolutely worthless as they are unrelated as a 'mod', makes it tedious to read thru. Food for thought as I've seen that list posted in a few threads.

Second, you've got a wastegate stuck open. I saw you have an external gate listed, is the internal gate locked shut or is the housing a non-gated housing?

I've got a .63 on the GT2871R, has absolutely no issue spooling in 1st, easily hit 20psi by 3500, even on a stock head.

I appologize for the lengthy list but I figured the more details the better. As for the turbo housing, it is a non-gated housing. I will try to pressure test my exhaust (does the stock cam have any overlap that would affect this?) most likely by trying to blow in it haha. With lack of boost this significant, the leak should be obvious. Is their anyway to repair a leaking external wastegate besides replacing it if this is the issue?

cwdodson88 11-23-2017 02:50 AM

Test the intake from the compressor inlet to the head. Spin the engine to the point where all valves are shut and stick a 5$ Home Depot/Napa/vatozone pressure plug in there and hit it with 10 psi, spray soapy water on all joints and the intake. Look for bubbles.

Take the same deal and do the exhaust.

But even that won’t tell you the wastegate is stuck... so remove the external gate and check it out first.

maxitoman007 11-23-2017 03:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cwdodson88 (Post 5710007)
Test the intake from the compressor inlet to the head. Spin the engine to the point where all valves are shut and stick a 5$ Home Depot/Napa/vatozone pressure plug in there and hit it with 10 psi, spray soapy water on all joints and the intake. Look for bubbles.

Take the same deal and do the exhaust.

But even that won’t tell you the wastegate is stuck... so remove the external gate and check it out first.

Why wouldn't that tell me if the wastegate was stuck? Wouldn't I notice air exiting through the wastegate dump tube?

Edit: are you possibly thinking I have an internally gated turbo? If so what you're saying would make sense I believe.

cwdodson88 11-23-2017 03:29 AM

Ahh, I didn’t see a dump tube. If that’s the case, stick your hand over the dump tube,m. I was thinking that your external gate wat plumbed back into the exhaust.

maxitoman007 11-23-2017 10:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cwdodson88 (Post 5710012)
Ahh, I didnít see a dump tube. If thatís the case, stick your hand over the dump tube,m. I was thinking that your external gate wat plumbed back into the exhaust.

Well my fan shroud wouldn't fit with the new intercooler so everywhere in the engine bay feels a little breezy. So it's hard to tell.

turbotankshane 11-23-2017 11:24 AM

Are you running stock lh2.2/ez117k?

Not really related, but IMO 14-15deg at idle, assuming 750rpm idle speed, is too much.

But back on topic, the first time I put a t3/t4 ebay setup on a car I hooked the wastegate arm up backwards so the flapper was wide open and could only just start building boost by redline. I didn't know you were externally gated when I posted earlier, so I'm going to say I'm with the others here on this and you've got a wastegate issue.

maxitoman007 11-23-2017 11:25 AM

Ok I will check the wastegate later today.

ryan242v 11-23-2017 12:05 PM

Boost leak will be different than a vacuum leak. Like a certain hole may be an issue under boost but not notable under vacuum.

maxitoman007 11-23-2017 02:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ryan242v (Post 5710079)
Boost leak will be different than a vacuum leak. Like a certain hole may be an issue under boost but not notable under vacuum.

Yea I believe anything after the throttle body goes under vacuum so anything before there is still a possible culprit.

cwdodson88 11-23-2017 03:26 PM

I blew an intake gasket and under vacuum it was fine, but 20 psi through the intake and it leaked like crazy

maxitoman007 11-23-2017 04:30 PM

Oh ok, noted. does the throttle body seal when the car is off or is it slightly open? I.e. Do I have to test each side of the throttle body separately for leaks?

cwdodson88 11-23-2017 04:57 PM

Wedge it open and test the whole thing. You could actually just seal the exhaust shut and test intake and exhaust all at the same time.

John V, outside agitator 11-23-2017 05:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by turbotankshane (Post 5709953)
Lots of different things to look at. The .63 hotside is gonna make it spool a bit slow, but depending on how fast you are revving through first you may not be loading the engine enough to generate the boost you're after. I can get the same turbo on a stock b230ft to make 25-30 psi in first gear, but that's with a 3.06 first gear, 3.08 final drive and a 29" tall tire.. and it makes 30psi damn quick with some assistance.

What transmission?
What final drive?

Stock engine, or if not, what mods?
How much preload do you have on the actuator?
Do you have a boost controller or are you just on the spring?
What boost pressure is the wastegate rated for?

Guess nobody thinks this is important..:doh:

I mean I've been in turdboat Volvos and Xratties with the crappy Thunderchicken T5 that with gearing alone zip thru the "2 car length 1st" so quickly the turbo simply doesn't have time to spool.. cause its Brap! Done..
But that's just what I actually have seen..
This is Turbobricks Performance which sits squarely in the New America, the post-truth, alt-factual Merikuh so pointless the muddy the discussion with facts and reasoning..
Shame on you! And me!:oops:


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