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-   -   T5 swap, all you need to know (http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=3620)

Hank Scorpio 10-01-2003 01:31 AM

T5 Swap:

One of the biggest complaints about tuning the RWD bricks here in the states is the lack of strong transmissions. The M46 has a limited strength (while I’ve seen some see constant abuse behind 220whp cars, some have died numerous times in 160whp cars), they are heavy, shift poorly (in my view) and have external overdrives. If third gear doesn’t let loose, it seems that the overdrives will instead around similar power levels. The M47 is an even as far as power handling goes (though it does have an internal 5th gear).

Enter, the Ford T5 transmission. The T5 was almost perfectly suited for transplant in to 240’s as the shifter position was dead on, the input shaft is long enough to be “compensated” for with the adapter plate, they came in Ford 5.0 mustangs so they are fairly common. The other nice part of the swap is the T5 has TONS of aftermarket, including short shifters, upgraded synchros ect. I’ve equipped mine with a “Pro 5.0” shift kit, that turns the T5 into one of the finest shifting manuals I have driven.

Down to the nitty gritty.

First your going to need to find a T5 from a 5.0L mustang. Its important that its from a V8 car as they are stronger, and have different gearing. While the turbocoupe ford T5’s work, they are reportedly not as strong. The v8 T5s (aka as a World Class) will handle around 300 ft/lbs of torque, plenty for most applications.

The next portion of the swap I procured from John Parker at www.v-performance.com . John offers modified bell housings, the adapter plate and clutches, flywheels and other performance options. This really makes the swap easy, everything I received fit perfectly the first time. John can work out a clutch that will meet what ever horsepower goals you may have in mind.

Another, though untested way to go is a 4 cylinder mustang clutch disc. They are the same size, though I do not know if the spline count is the same size as the V8 T5. John could just as easily get you a disc only as well.

The pilot bearing is a Ford 5.0 mustang pilot bearing, it’s a direct replacement for the Volvo one (fits perfectly in the end of the crank). Shifter position for the 240 is perfect, how ever the 740’s pose a problem. The 740 shifter is further back than a 240. Some of the v8 conversion 740 owners who use T5’s reported that they simply used a spacer block to move the shift handle further back. Another option is using the harder to find GM (typically camaro/firebird) T5. It not only has the correct position for a 740, but the input shaft’s pilot tip is the same as the OEM Volvo m46/47 one. This means you could use the stock OEM pilot bearing. This could kill two birds with one stone, though I haven’t ventured down this road yet.

This is a picture of a modified 740 shifter:
http://www.telusplanet.net/public/gi...rd/shifter.jpg
(thanks to Volvord)

As far as the install, its as straight forward as removing the old transmission and installing the T5. Actually, as far as getting it lifted in there, I believe it was easier for some reason! (Probably because its lighter and a bit smaller dimensionally).

There is two spots where you will have to fabricate something. The transmission mount requires a bit of creativity. There is diagrams online for how the V8 guys (once again) have made their mounts, I would follow those. I however because of limited time ended up welding a plate right to the top of my cross member and bolting my T5 right to it (as in solid mount). It works, its not pretty.

This is the diagram for the “correct” way to do it:
http://www.telusplanet.net/public/gi...rd/t_mount.gif
(thanks to Volvord)

The driveshaft is the other end. Here is another spot that has a few options. On mine I elected to just have a custom single driveshaft made up, from scratch. I have yet to experience any problems with it, and it is quite sizeable (will have to go measure it this weekend). Along similar lines, most people use mustang driveshafts and have them modified to fit. Apparently, the turbocoupes use an almost (if not) identical mount to the Volvo driveshaft, this would just require shorting of the front shaft. All of these can be handled by any professional driveline shop (my from scratch 1piece only cost around 120 dollars if I recall correctly). No matter what you do, this swap will require some driveshaft modification. Pricing will obviously vary from place to place.

There is a couple other odds and ends to track down. One is the speedometer. If your using a 240 with a mechanical speedometer then you’ll have to get Napa speedo cable (though the part number escapes me), but it will mate up. Anything that has an electronic speedo need not apply.

There is one last issue, the Achilles heel of this swap so far, the throw out bearing. This is where I ran into the most trouble. The ford 5.0 throw out bearing will fit the fork with some modification, however I found out it isn’t tall enough to work with the OEM pressure plate set up. Then I tried a taller one, however it would bottom out on the fork and wouldn’t spin. Here is my solution.

First, its Chicago Rawhide parts number 6030. It has a big rectangle flange on the middle of it. I basically rounded this flange, and then made a piece of steel to go on the bottom. This allowed the original flange to sit on top of the fork (there fore letting the bearing surface keep from bottoming out) and the flange on the bottom keeps the throw out bearing from flopping around.

Here is a (crude) picture of what I’ve done:
http://www.pbase.com/image/20488159.jpg

When I had last talked to John Parker, he was trying to include this modified throw out bearing with the kit.

My current set up is a cable actuated clutch, via the stock cable and fork. One untested option is using a hydralic setup from the later Tremec boxes. If this will retrofit to a T5, let alone a Volvo bellhousing, this would null out the issues with the throwout bearing.

So with some very mild fab’ing you’ll be able to swap out the junk “tractor” transmission that came stock in your Volvo, and swap in a nice, strong quick shifting transmission and enjoy bumping the boost with out living your life in fear!

Here is a couple pictures of mine:
http://www.pbase.com/image/19263774.jpg
http://www.pbase.com/image/19268142.jpg

Heres some useful Ford T5 links:
http://www.fordmuscle.com/archives/2...p/index2.shtml
http://www.fordmuscle.com/archives/transmission.shtml

Doug Kauer 9-30-03

(PS, Dana, if you want this as an article, wouldn't bother me in the least. Any suggestions, further questions or improvements lets make them in this thread before it goes to "print").

linuxman51 10-01-2003 01:35 AM

1 problem, you included two pics of the tranny mount bracket, not the shifter :)

z537z 10-01-2003 01:45 AM

You're welcome everybody :wink:

Doug thanks a million, I'll look forward to this for summer.


_z

EDIT: revisions

Clutch cable a problem for you?
Any other options for driveshaft? Cheap factor...

Go ahead and delete this when it goes to "print"

secondtwig 10-01-2003 02:05 AM

Sticky!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :wink:

bitjockey 10-01-2003 11:08 AM

Doug, you had those two pictures flipped... I fixed it for you.

I agree this should be an article.

Hank Scorpio 10-01-2003 12:08 PM

3rd try's a charm ;) It was late, what can I say :e-shrug: :rofl:

(Robin, can we give this two weeks as a sticky, then if there is no more corrections, questions, lock it and delete any extra posts?)

GTJordan 10-01-2003 12:10 PM

An artical, NOT a stickey. A newbie can't read through those stickys and understand whats going on. They are full of side trackedness, and extra jabber....

I vote for a real artical

Jordan

Mach375 10-01-2003 02:28 PM

Dude, Doug: THANK YOU!!! This is exactly what I was hoping someone would do soon. Just in time for my swap! Muchas gracias senior!!
I have to gloat here: just picked up my T5 from a SVO guy in Ft. Worth. Freshly mild-race rebuilt (zero miles since rebuild) out of a '93 5.0 (ID tag 208, see section below about gear ratios) for $545, and I was able to pick it up in person so no shipping (ah, how nice it is to be a trucker).

As for the clutch disc, having talked to three different people, all familiar with both the turbo-4 T5 and the V8 T5, it appears that the input shaft comes in two different spline counts. 22-spline shaft is NOT what you want. The other is the 10-spline shaft, and this one is where the turbo-4 T5 clutch disc from the Mustang (or Thunderbird?) will work. The V8 T5 clutch disc is a choice of 10", 10.5" or 11". The turbo-4 T5 clutch disc is 8.5", same as ours. So having gotten advice, but as of yet not having actually put the blood into it, it appears as though we can use the Ford turbo-4 T5 clutch disc.
One thing to note, too, is that, as a general rule, the turbo-4 T5 has a steeper gearing, starting (generally) around 3.97 for 1st. Whereas the V8 T5 has a somewhat lower gearing, starting at (generally) 3.35 for 1st. As far as torque, the turbo-4 T5 handles from 235 to 250 lb/ft, whereas the V8 T5 handles from 265 to 330 lb/ft. However, you won't find a stock V8 T5 handling any more than 300 lb/ft (except for the Cobra 5.0, which takes it to 310 lb/ft, and you're not likely to ever find a Cobra in the junkyard!). I got all this info from http://www.fordmuscle.com/archives/2...p/index2.shtml
Another thing to note is another reason for wanting the V8 T5 instead of the turbo-4 T5 is the length of the input shaft. The turbo-4 T5 is supposed to be longer, but I don't know by how much. This is only what I've heard, haven't actually done research or measurements.
You will all note that in his pic of the transmission mounted to the bellhousing, there is an electrical connector dangling down on the driver's side, toward the top and in the front. This is the neutral safety lockout on the Fords. Does not need to be connected for our purposes (though I'm sure we can find a use for it. I'm thinking turbo timer applications?). Another electrical connection you'll note is in the middle of the case on the driver's side: a round switch with two screw connections on it. That is the back-up switch, for the light.
On my '93 V8 T5, there are three mounting holes running the length of the tailhousing along the bottom. These are for a counterweight/balance weight (I suspect for the turbo-4?). I imagine there may be a use for them, perhaps in aiding the mounting to the crossmember?
For more info and advice, go here: http://www.fordmuscle.com/archives/transmission.shtml

Doug: In your pic from volvord, you have the B&M Ripper shifter pictured (Jeg's part # 130-45050, $170). I remember there being some discussion about having to bend (heat and bend?) the shaft in order to more easily fit the shifter in the 700, and also to make it more accesible to the driver (position). Do you know anything about this? And also: You seem to have something identical to the Hurst Billet/Plus shifter (Jeg's part # 530-391-5030, $165), or the B&M Pro Ripper shifter (Jeg's part # 130-45070, $200). Did you have to do any modifications to get it positioned where you want it, and make installation easy? Or rather (now that I've looked at what you drive--duh), do you think any such modifications will be needed in the 700? And one last question: You say for time constraints, you just bolted it to a plate, then the crossmember. If you had the time, how would you do it? Could you mount any kind of actual mount between the plate and the transmission with the way you did it?

Now as for the clutch, having an auto now :grrr: I need to collect clutch parts. I'm given two options--cable-actuated, or hydraulic-actuated. I'm leaning toward the hydraulic (in a big way, think Tower of Piza). Anyone shed some better light on this for me?

As if it needs to be said, I'm going to be doing this conversion into my '86 744. However, don't wait for me, as I do actually have all the time in the world, and will be using every minute of it. I will document my steps and get everything back to you either as I go along, or when I get it all done. More to come.....

Hank Scorpio 10-01-2003 02:56 PM

Wow Shane! This will really help to improve that thread.

Let me make some adjustments tonight.

I did forget to mention that you could indeed use a hydralic set up, from what I believe is a Tremec box. Can't hold me on that, but it is possible from what I recall. That would void the issues with the throw out bearing.

For the 240s, the shifter position does not need modification, for the 740 you will have to get more creative though (that picture is indeed in a 740).

z537z 10-01-2003 04:18 PM

A few things:

Driveshaft issues - Camaro shafts reccomended here:
http://forums.turbobricks.com/viewtopic.php?t=4038

Identification chart: (ALWAYS handy) ( Know he posted it, but just reiterating)
http://www.fordmuscle.com/archives/2...p/index2.shtml

And yeah really low gear ratios, so plan on having some power to get out of 1st...But WOW .65:1 5th! Maybe a 3.91 diff is in order?

As for transmission mounts, Doug what did you use? IE more detail, pics.
[quote:0721e0d822]You say for time constraints, you just bolted it to a plate, then the crossmember. If you had the time, how would you do it? [/quote:0721e0d822]

Looked around at V8 conversion sites couldn't find any info on a tranny mount for 200 series. I'm sure I'll be able to fabricate something I'm not completely helpless :-P. I got a machine shop here at college and plenty of aluminum for free, specs?


Great stuff, get this looking nice and tidy, post it up.

That turbo4 clutch option is tempting, but that's just one more car I'd have to find... And hydraulich clutches are really nice, just more trouble than I'd like to go through.

Doug could you list simply what parts you took from the M46 and what parts are BW? Fork, T/O bearing, pilot bearing, driveshaft couplers, etc.


Looking good, I'll contact Vperf as soon as I start this project up. Maybe this winter??? Tempting.... I do have a garage and 3 weeks...

_z

[/quote]

MikeHardy 10-01-2003 06:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by z537z
And yeah really low gear ratios, so plan on having some power to get out of 1st...But WOW .65:1 5th! Maybe a 3.91 diff is in order?

[/quote]

just insert speeds here

Gearbox:- T5 251 aftermarket 3.91:1 final drive
Tyre:- Michelin all patterns 195/60 x 15
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Top Gear gives 28.377 MPH/1000 RPM and a top speed of 170.261 MPH at 6000 RPM

Engine speeds in top gear:-
30 MPH = 1057 RPM 40 MPH = 1410 RPM 50 MPH = 1762 RPM 60 MPH = 2114 RPM
70 MPH = 2467 RPM 80 MPH = 2819 RPM 90 MPH = 3172 RPM 100 MPH = 3524 RPM

Top Speed in 1 gear = 36.361 MPH
And changes into 2 gear at 3946 RPM dropping 2054 RPM
Top Speed in 2 gear = 55.291 MPH
And changes into 3 gear at 4144 RPM dropping 1856 RPM
Top Speed in 3 gear = 80.048 MPH
And changes into 4 gear at 4478 RPM dropping 1522 RPM
Top Speed in 4 gear = 107.264 MPH
And changes into 5 gear at 3780 RPM dropping 2220 RPM
Top Speed in 5 gear = 170.261 MPH

and

Gearbox:- T5 251 aftermarket 4.1:1 final drive
Tyre:- Michelin all patterns 195/60 x 15
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Top Gear gives 27.062 MPH/1000 RPM and a top speed of 162.371 MPH at 6000 RPM

Engine speeds in top gear:-
30 MPH = 1109 RPM 40 MPH = 1478 RPM 50 MPH = 1848 RPM 60 MPH = 2217 RPM
70 MPH = 2587 RPM 80 MPH = 2956 RPM 90 MPH = 3326 RPM 100 MPH = 3695 RPM

Top Speed in 1 gear = 34.676 MPH
And changes into 2 gear at 3946 RPM dropping 2054 RPM
Top Speed in 2 gear = 52.729 MPH
And changes into 3 gear at 4144 RPM dropping 1856 RPM
Top Speed in 3 gear = 76.338 MPH
And changes into 4 gear at 4478 RPM dropping 1522 RPM
Top Speed in 4 gear = 102.293 MPH
And changes into 5 gear at 3780 RPM dropping 2220 RPM
Top Speed in 5 gear = 162.371 MPH

baised on 6000RPM limit

z537z 10-01-2003 06:27 PM

Wow.

Not bad I guess. I can hit 62 at the rev limiter in 2nd right now.

_z

Hank Scorpio 10-01-2003 07:47 PM

Edited now :-D

Mach375 11-03-2003 05:05 PM

More sites, more thoughts on the T5 matter:

http://www.mcleodind.com/pdf.asp They haven't got the HTML catalogue up and running yet. Pages of note: 1 (adjustable-length throwout bearing), 2/3 (hydraulic throwout bearing), 4 (blank adaptor plate--make your own! :rockon: ), 6 through 9 (clutch discs. Note Volvo disc listing on page 8: first 5 lines [7.5 through 9-7/16]), 32/33 (Ford clutch sizes and choices), 82 (Volvo clutch sizes and choices), 103-116 sans 104 (various interesting parts, namely flywheels). I was particularly interested in the hydraulic t/o bearings, as well as the adjustable-length t/o bearings. And note the large selection of Ford clutch disc sizes.

http://www.ddperformance.com/images/t5dia.jpg T5 dimensions.

http://www.fordmuscle.com/archives/2...ns/index.shtml A good comparison of various Ford manual transmissions' dimensions, gearing, and torque handling.
Speaking of dimensions, I'm now wondering if maybe the T3550 (5-spd) or T56 (6-spd) won't fit our cars as well? Seems they would fit the 700s better than the T5, based on lengths (knowing the T5 shifter ends up about an inch too far forward)? How I figure (using the numbers in each illustration): Shifter position is 21.1" on T56, versus 19.5" on T5 or T3550 (1.6" further back) (that's assuming the indicated numbers, which you will note are the same for dimensions A and C. So one of those is wrong. In my estimations, I believe it to be A at a difference of 6.7" between D and A. Judging by the illustration, I estimate the centerline of the shifter to be almost exactly half of the difference between D and A [3.35"], leaving the best estimate I can give for the true length of A to be closer to 29.8". Which makes sense, considering the T56 is longer than the T5 by 3.1" and the T3550 by 3.7" [based on subtracting the bellhousing B from D, or 27.8" overall length, and B from the newly calculated A, or 24.5" shifter placement]). I suppose this now puts the T-56 about 2" too far back in the 700s. Possible to remedy this with a "shorty" bellhousing??
So now that I look at it, our choices seem to be the T5 or the T3550, with the T3550 being a better choice for more power handling. But also twice as expensive!

http://www.allfordmustangs.com/Detailed/25.shtml Swap from a Ford AODE, but it sure helps for getting ideas on what we're looking at getting into.

http://www.allfordmustangs.com/Detailed/349.shtml Very detailed info on the T5. Yes, the chart is the same as the one I posted earlier.

http://www.allfordmustangs.com/Detailed/631.shtml How to ID your T5, but you'll need the tag number.

http://www.moderndriveline.com/FAQ.htm#_Toc29404665 FAQ covers clutches and other general questions.

http://www.merkurencyclopedia.com/Tr...tallation.html Swap into a Merkur. Again, it should give us an idea of what we may be looking at.

(I must thank Justin for many of those links. They are on another sticky here at TB, but I didn't see them linked or posted on this one, and just thought I'd consolidate).

Other thoughts: Can the input shaft on the turbo4 T5 be swapped for the input shaft on the V8 T5? This would yield another 1/4" further rearward. Or, perhaps use the input shaft on a '94 V8 or V6 T5 to yield an extra 2/3" rearward? The difference being that on the turbo4 T5, the shaft diameter is .59", whereas on all others the shaft diameter is .668". Hmmm... Then wouldn't the '94-'95 V8 T5 (tag ID 246) be our best choice?? Using numbers from http://www.fordmuscle.com/archives/2...p/index2.shtml

volvorsport 11-03-2003 08:35 PM

when you mean hydraulic clutch doug , do you mean by having the slave cylinder mounted on the input shaft like most racing cars ? All 240 here ive seen are hydraulic clutch , guessing its a RHD-LHD thing . That would have definitely cured any problems with release bearing actuation .

just eyeing up easy alternatives for the UK members .

pgrey 11-03-2003 08:57 PM

Just thought I'd add my experience with a T5Z (the 330 ft/lb model) in my V8 945. I just swapped it for a Tremec 3550II. I used a Tilton hydraulic TO bearing with both the Tremec and the T5. It works quite nicely. The bearing has different length extensions that one can use to adapt the bearing to the height of one's clutch pack.

I'm using the standard Volvo clutch master and the whole setup is slick - much nicer than using a hydraulic master and a slave cylinder actuating the Mustang arm. We couldn't get enough travel out of the slave to use with the Mustang linkage. Since you guys are using the Volvo arm maybe that'd work? Just a thought...

BTW, I've got a T5Z in my garage in pieces that could be put together as is (15K miles on it from new) and run (including the Tilton hydraulic TO bearing snout and a Pro 5.0 shifter). If anyone's interested, let me know.

The T5 fifth gear is T-A-L-L. I found it too tall even with the V8 torque. It's usefull as a gas saver but not as a gear one would use to actually accelerate. I've got a 3.54 diff. The Tremec's fifth is a lot shorter (.83 instead of .63) and now I wish I had a gearbox with a .72 fifth. That'd be about perfect. Sigh.

Peter

Hank Scorpio 11-03-2003 09:07 PM

Peter I've noticed the tall 5th. Actually tough, with 3.91s I have no problem accellerating through 5th provided I dont go into 5th till its turning atleast 3300 (in 5th).

Doug

bitjockey 11-03-2003 10:44 PM

Peter, how much would you like to get for that tranny?

pgrey 11-03-2003 11:43 PM

I should have thought of an asking price before I posted... Let me cogitate on it and let you know.

Peter

volvo944ti 11-05-2003 03:35 PM

so where can the adapter plate be aquired and anyone know of a place that can pre fab a tranny mount??? i think there needs to be a custom one right???

Hank Scorpio 11-05-2003 08:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by doug242ti
The next portion of the swap I procured from John Parker at www.v-performance.com . John offers modified bell housings, the adapter plate and clutches, flywheels and other performance options.

:stupid:

bitjockey 11-05-2003 08:33 PM

And I'll just vouch for John-- great guy, easy to work with and does wonderful work.

pengee 11-27-2003 04:31 PM

I have been trying to get a good T5 for a reasonable price. I found a T5 for an 84-92 camaro / firebird. It will be for my 745. It has a spline count of 14. I am not sure if this is right or will work?? Any more info or help would be great.. Thanks

noah244ti 12-11-2003 01:04 AM

An e mail I just recieved today:

We are now in the process of doing a modified Volvo clutch fork, so ship yours along with the bell housing so it can be modified to fit the Ford throwout bearing.

Regards,
John
Vintage Performance Developments

:-D One less thing I have to worry about. Looks like the stock ford throwout bearing will now be a perfect fit. :-D

I do have one question though, for those of you who have a t5 installed...
What gear ratio t5 are you running? I had planned on a 3.35 first t5 but just came across a 2.95 from a friend who would part with it for $250 (95k on it). The 1st gear ratio sounds a little high to me and I dont know if my cars got the low end tourque to pull that 1st, considering our m46's 2nd is only a tad higher :e-shrug:
Comments please! Thanks, Noah

Hank Scorpio 12-11-2003 01:13 AM

You mean me? I think Im still the only person. Glad to hear JP is shipping modified forks. That will reduce the "all you need to know" thread down ALOT.

I have a 91 box, I dont rember the 1st off the top of my head though.


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