• Hello Guest, welcome to the initial stages of our new platform!
    You can find some additional information about where we are in the process of migrating the board and setting up our new software here

    Thank you for being a part of our community!

Advance/retard timing on EZ116K

I'd love to see a 6 degree option and possibly a -9 degree option.

Also I was thinking if I wanted high boost on pump gas would a series of pressure switches allow this. I'm thinking like 18psi pull 3 degrees 21 psi pull 6 degrees. Does anyone think this would allow pump gas to be used at those boost levels?

I know it the crazy world of wacky hp and rpms sometimes you need to pull lots of timing. The owner of my company was running outlaw 10.5 and having issues becuase he could not pull more than 35 degrees of timing to allow him to run more than the insane 800 shot he was running.

Speaking of options - is there anyway your tuner might be able to modify or remove the rev limiter. I know you said that neither EZK nor ECU chip control that. Could he modify or remove the offending bit of hardware that does it if he were sent a box? Lemme know.

Thanks
Renny
 
I have the chipped 207 box that you (fred) supplied me. I checked with my old (149) box because it was easier to access the connector with the box loose. I could try my 207 box tommorow morning, (its too busy at work now) and report back. This should help me because my car tends to ping on the california 91 octane gas (especially with the heat lately). I will probably wire up some switches on the dash so I can retard the timing manually when it's too hot outside.

Thanks for the info, Aaron
 
Renny_D said:
I'd love to see a 6 degree option and possibly a -9 degree option.

Also I was thinking if I wanted high boost on pump gas would a series of pressure switches allow this. I'm thinking like 18psi pull 3 degrees 21 psi pull 6 degrees. Does anyone think this would allow pump gas to be used at those boost levels?
Click to expand...
When you say pump gas, do you mean 89 octane?

With your setup and when using the ignition chip, you don´t have the need to retard the timing at 18psi do you? Your setup should allow you to use 18psi without a problem.

And the pressure switches seems like a nice idea. It should work, if you can change the timing "on the fly" that is. If you don´t need to get back down to the idle program or turn the power off before switching it should work like a charm.

Renny_D said:
Speaking of options - is there anyway your tuner might be able to modify or remove the rev limiter. I know you said that neither EZK nor ECU chip control that. Could he modify or remove the offending bit of hardware that does it if he were sent a box? Lemme know.
Click to expand...
Some of the ECU´s have a software limit and others have another chip or hardware that sets the rev limiter.

Since LH2.4/EZK works with algorithms and "targets" instead of solid maps, it should work fine just to remove or raise the limiter. It is a question of what´s "allowed" in the chip or not, and if the algorithms actually are accurate enough at those rpm´s that has not been corrected/offset in the chip. Some variables may not be accurate at higher rpm than originally calculated/set/programmed in the chip. The ignition timing has to be good and not interpolated. It might cause some unwanted effects. This is just speculations at the moment though.

I will discuss it with my tuner.

wennstroma said:
I have the chipped 207 box that you (fred) supplied me. I checked with my old (149) box because it was easier to access the connector with the box loose. I could try my 207 box tommorow morning, (its too busy at work now) and report back. This should help me because my car tends to ping on the california 91 octane gas (especially with the heat lately). I will probably wire up some switches on the dash so I can retard the timing manually when it's too hot outside.
Click to expand...
That also sounds like a good idea.

EDIT:// Thanks for trying the 207 as well. And take it easy with the 207 just in case.
 
Last edited:
I'm not sure what box is in the car at the moment, brain lasp, I do have another box I will hook up friday and see what happens.

Unfortunatly your numbers are meaningless unless you take it out to full advance. Why did you stop at 2000 rpm?
 
k4dje said:
Unfortunatly your numbers are meaningless unless you take it out to full advance. Why did you stop at 2000 rpm?
Click to expand...

The thought was that this changed the static timing (advanced or retarded) across the rpm range (besides idle), so the rpm would not matter as long as all readings were taken at the same rpm. I will also document the readings at higher rpms (4k-5k) if this would satisfy you more.
 
Last edited:
wennstroma said:
The thought was that this changed the static timing (advanced or retarded) across the rpm range (besides idle), so the rpm would not matter as long as all readings were taken at the same rpm. I will also document the readings at higher rpms (4k-5k) if this would satisfy you more.
Click to expand...
Yes, I think your tests proved that grounding pin 18, pin 19 and pin 18 + 19 actually works like intended. You proved that the pins does their job. Both your test as well as k4dje?s tests were very good.

But... when comparing both of your results I find something interesting. Since you both proved that the pins actually do something, I can?t help to wonder about k4dje?s results... k4dje actually got some change in full advance.

Results from wennstroma:
Pin 18 = -3?
Pin 19 = -6?
Pin 18 + 19 = +3? - +4?

Just like "the book" says. Statical advance was clearly shown.

Results from k4dje:
Pin 18 = 0?
Pin 19 = -2?
Pin 21 = +3?
Pin 25 = +3?
Pin 18 + 19 = +8?
Pin 18 + 19 + 21 = +8?
Pin 18 + 19 + 21 + 25 = +8?
Pin 18 + 21 = +1?
Pin 18 + 25 = +2?
Pin 19 + 21 = -2?
Pin 19 + 25 = -1?
Pin 21 + 25 = +4?

(These results are interesting in another way, which I will talk about in a moment. You have to excuse me for being a little confused when you first showed your results. It may have to do with the timing light not being exact enough at higher rpm and what not.)

You evidently showed that something happened when grounding the pins, but what was actually shown? Well, it seems like you have got the timing to advance even further... And that is good. You also got something out of the other pins as well.

Theory #1:
Since our engines have a knock-sensor, it will take advantage of that. If you set the timing it will advance it but only to the point of knock. The knock-sensing circuit is very subtile when it is not under any (high) load. With bad gas or too much advance you might find that it rides on the limit of knock and stabilizes on a certain number for that gas quality (some adaptability exists in the EZK too...). That is probably why some people can get different readings (timing advance), depending on the gas quality, temperature and other limiting factors.

Theory #2:
The pins mentioned in this thread may also have another function other than statical advance... Maybe a pin or two, or some pins in combination, actually change the timing in different rpm regions and different load values as well (theory only, may not be true at all).

Look at k4dje?s numbers compared to wennstroma?s numbers and draw some conclusions. Both of them has had different setups as well (different gas etc.).

k4dje, it would be interesting to see if you get different results with another EZK number.

And wennstroma, it would be interesting to see what results you get when doing the same thing as k4dje by maxing out the advance.
 
dudes, IMHO, this has got to be one of the best threads going on right now. i appreciate everyones' imput. hopefully, i'll actually get to start my '67 w/ LH2.4 in about a week and i'll gladly add to or confirm information when i can--i'm not sure of the box that's in there right now but it came out of a '91 740 turbo w/M46.

have fun,
 
Tried the chipped 207 this morning. Results were similar (21,24 had little or no effect as far as I can tell). idle was always the same (13*) so i left that out of the graph. first number is 2000rpm, then 4000rpm.

no pins: 32,35
18:29,32
19:26,29-30
18+19:34-35,37-38

I did not type all the other combos because they worked the same as last time (21,24 had no effect on the combinations).

I test drove the car +3* advanced and it pings like crazy, but there is definitely better throttle response and the turbo spools faster. The a/f gauge shows it going very rich, (compensating for the knock?)

Tried -6* retarded and the car is very sluggish, but there is no knock at all.

Tried -3* retarded and there is almost no loss in throttle response/turbo spool up. There is no knock either! Before, even on 91 octane gas, I would get lots of ping at higher boost levels (15psi).

I will wire up a switch panel, but I will probaly just leave it 3* retarded most of the time.

Thanks, Aaron
 
just to clarify. the 18+19 combo it grounding bothe pins? or hooking the pins together? i just woke up and in a litle slow right now......
 
boosted12a said:
just to clarify. the 18+19 combo it grounding bothe pins? or hooking the pins together? i just woke up and in a litle slow right now......
Click to expand...

grounding both 18+19 advance timing 3*
aaron
 
wennstroma said:
Tried -3* retarded and there is almost no loss in throttle response/turbo spool up. There is no knock either! Before, even on 91 octane gas, I would get lots of ping at higher boost levels (15psi).
Click to expand...
Awesome to hear all that! I think there has to be something wrong for you to get ping with the chips at only 15psi... What's your setup? Maybe better for a different thread actually...
 
i drove 80 miles with pin 18 and 19 both grounded, and i coulnt feel a real increase in torque. On the other hand, i recall that i thought torque was lower, but i had it in 5th gear instead of 4th when i thought that.. im rambling. but whatever, i didnt notice a real increasde, other than that it ran great. good mpg too. 7.3 l/100 km...
i just got a few extra connectors for adding the wires to the ezk.
 
klr142 said:
I think there has to be something wrong for you to get ping with the chips at only 15psi... What's your setup? Maybe better for a different thread actually...
Click to expand...

I was having this problem before I got the chips, I thought the chips would help but they have just increased the amount of boost I can run slightly. I have asked fred about this and we think it is a pre-existing problem, but I have had no luck finding anything wrong. I was going to start a thread soon anyways (sorry for the threadjack) to see if anyone had any ideas so I will start one later tonight when I have more time to list the (multiple) problems and my setup.
thanks, aaron
 
Thanks Aaron for the time you put in to the tests with the EZK?s. It was really useful.

Now we know that pin 21 and 24 doesn?t do a thing when looking at the timing on free-rev. Pin 21 and 24 are digital outputs though, and they are supposed to be grounded to activate something... If you have read one of my earlier posts you may have seen my theories on this matter. Maybe they can do something when the car is above a certain load and rpm...?

One thing I know: They do something. The pins are connected to the chip, and the outputs are activated...
 
I hooked up another box # 146 the results were the same as my eariler post. except the pin 18 did retard 3, I tried my current box and it also retards, However I must say that everything is subjective cause I cannot be sure I was looking at the same angle each time.

One, Grounding the pins has no effect on initial timing.

Two, The curves are speeded up and continue farther.

Three, The curves are slowed down and do not go as far

I don't know what will happen if the motor encounters knock, probably just retard per that stroke.

The dead pins I do not know but they do have 5 volts on them as do the other pins. They may do somthing under load. I might be able to get some chassis dyno time in the near future, if so I will try out the pins under load.
 
I checked voltage on all 4 pins on both my boxes today 18,19,21 had reference voltage around 5 volts, but on mine pin 24 had .5-.6 volts constant, did yours have 5 volts?
 
Yes, mine had 5 volts all pins. I checked cause in an eailier post someone said they had no volts. Pin 24 and 25, 5 volts each, Both boxes. I'm getting an idea. What is the # on your box? Is it a turbo or NA box?
 
I just realized I may have made a mistake! I think this morning I was testing pin 24 instead of 25! I may have done this on the other box too.:oops: . About the boxes: The first one I tested ended with 149, this is the stock box that came with the car and does not have a chip in it. The second one ends in 207, fred got me this box during the chip group buy because I was not having any luck finding a "chippable" box in the junkyards here. It has his ignition tuning chip installed in it. I will test both again tommorow because of my possible mistake.

edit: they are both stock turbo boxes, fred said the 207 box came from a 98? turbo police car in sweden.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top