California smog failure

deeporbit · 11-03-2009, 04:15 PM

My 87 245 has failed once again. The initial score on HC was 164 (limit is 114), CO was 0.03 (0.73 limit), NO was 3465 (785 limit). I changed the cat, new intake tube that had many holes, checked for other vaccuum leaks, runs. Now the scores are HC 10, CO 0.03, NO 2463.
The HC went way down, and the NO dropped 1000 points. Mr. Tech guy was thinking it may be the O2 sensor. Any ideas?

moxy123 · 11-03-2009, 04:23 PM

Might be the O2. Run the cat for a couple of hours hot before the test if it is new to break it in. I know some need to heat up for a while to get full function, mine did. Failed after a new install and then tried again after a few hot hours on it a day later and it passed.

A quart of acetone in 5 gallons of gas might tweak it enough too.

orie · 11-03-2009, 04:48 PM

EGR failure. That's assuming 87 240's have EGR.

dl242gt · 11-03-2009, 04:54 PM

Are you sure you got all the vacuum leaks? Also what thermostat are you running. High NO can be caused from too hot combustion. Try a colder thermostat like a 82C one.

deeporbit · 11-03-2009, 08:39 PM

I got underneath the car and stuck a tube in my ear and listened around the exhaust manifold and connections. I suspected the gasket from the header but it was quiet. However the double tube that bolts to the header sounds sucky behind the heat shields. I'm thinking there could be a crack in there allowing/causing excessive O2 which blows the test up. Since I have a new cat I am also going to look at the entire exhaust system from head to tail. I listened around the head and the header gasket may be needing replacement. Cylinder #1 had 2 loose bolts!

orie · 11-03-2009, 09:20 PM

High NO like that usually means high combustion chamber temps as mentioned above. Very unlikely to be anything past the combustion chamber, other than the O2 sensor, which is highly suspect. I'd direct my attention at the EGR system and the O2 sensor.

deeporbit · 11-03-2009, 09:53 PM

I did some searching and found this : http://www.brickboard.com/RWD/volvo/...ual_cause.html

vanapeer · 11-04-2009, 04:56 AM

did it help? browsing this forum would give Turbobricks Forums > Symposium > article composition > Smog failure checklist

ccbob · 11-04-2009, 10:41 AM

Lucid on the Brickboard posted one of the cures for high NOx on 240 Volvo/Chrysler ignition systems. Plug the vacuum line going to the ICU. Follow the links in the msg for others' positive experiences. My '86 240 NOx was 1108 with 1125 max so it barely passed. I intend to plug that vacuum line and do a retest just for giggles.

http://www.brickboard.com/RWD/volvo/..._ignition.html

deeporbit · 11-04-2009, 09:12 PM

I dug in a little deeper and found that the TAC is not functioning. The flap is not moving which allows hot air to flow into the intake at all times. I'll order a new one and try the test again. Stay tuned (no pun intended).

dl242gt · 11-04-2009, 10:46 PM

ccbob needs a new cat. Plugging the vacuum line will only make the car run like crap.

To the op that may help with getting the combustion temps down a bit. I run cold air all year. It's easy. Remove the air box so you can work on it. Move air flap control rod to the closed position. You will see holes in the control rod. Insert screw through holes in control rod and through the plastic bracket behind it. This will keep the plastic rod pressing the flap closed permanently. The inspection guy will never see it since it is inside the airbox. Wala, cold air all the time.

ccbob · 11-05-2009, 01:54 AM

+1. Better to plug the hot air intake than risk a cooked AMM. I just passed visual insp. (Calif) with the TAC tube connected but it's blocked off inside the air box.

Yeah but a new cat is over six bills (Calif).

deeporbit · 11-05-2009, 02:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ccbob

+1. Better to plug the hot air intake than risk a cooked AMM. I just passed visual insp. (Calif) with the TAC tube connected but it's blocked off inside the air box.

Yeah but a new cat is over six bills (Calif).

I got a CA legal cat from Ebay for $150 and had it installed for $40.

moxy123 · 11-05-2009, 02:18 AM

I got mine, '93, 245, from NAPA, in stock so no shipping. Around $160 if I remember correctly. Perfect fit same as original, just bolt on. 30 minutes.

ccbob · 11-05-2009, 01:07 PM

Sounds good, moxy, if I lived in AZ. The NAPA EXH 15746 ($169) and EXH 15196 ($124) aren't legal in Cali.

I'll keep an eye on ebay, deep.

dl242gt · 11-05-2009, 02:53 PM

Try FCPGroton. They seemed to have reasonable (haha) prices for CA legal cats. I also thought that only applied to OBD II californication cars. I thought 1995 and older were OK buying a cat that's just a cat.

apologetik · 11-05-2009, 02:59 PM

^
Not since Jan.

Us 240T guys are F'ed unless we install ourselves because it is illegal for a shop to install in the non-oem location. They also have to use a cat that is to original manufacturer spec (and it is warranted for 5 years or so).

Your best bet in CA is to know how to weld or have a friend who does and import an illegal one. If the smog guy can not prove it was put on after the law change you are good to go.

deeporbit · 11-05-2009, 05:24 PM

magna flow 36034
CA legal. Just shop around and you'll find wildly varied prices.

apologetik · 11-05-2009, 11:58 PM

That cat is for a 2.3 not the 2.1 turbo with the cat in the downpipe.

According to their site and the representative of theirs, when I called, they do not have a cat available for my app in Cali.

The search continues--not that I am looking.

Joel

Redwood Chair · 11-06-2009, 12:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by apologetik

^
Not since Jan.

Us 240T guys are F'ed unless we install ourselves because it is illegal for a shop to install in the non-oem location. They also have to use a cat that is to original manufacturer spec (and it is warranted for 5 years or so).

Your best bet in CA is to know how to weld or have a friend who does and import an illegal one. If the smog guy can not prove it was put on after the law change you are good to go.

Quote:

Originally Posted by apologetik

That cat is for a 2.3 not the 2.1 turbo with the cat in the downpipe.

According to their site and the representative of theirs, when I called, they do not have a cat available for my app in Cali.

The search continues--not that I am looking.

Joel

The state issued handbook lists the same cat for the 2.1 & the 2.3.
It needs to be trimmed to fit but it works,and is legal.
I just had it done for $325 out the door.

apologetik · 11-06-2009, 03:54 AM

That is not a bad price with the 5 year warranty and all.

Hell I paid over 5 for the two cats in stock location on the Suburban, they were bolt in though.

Redwood Chair · 11-06-2009, 04:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by apologetik

That is not a bad price with the 5 year warranty and all.

Hell I paid over 5 for the two cats in stock location on the Suburban, they were bolt in though.

Sounds about right,even online the high flow cats are $190-$230 shipped.
He had to keep the old one,fill out some BS paperwork that I had to sign saying that I actually bought a cat for my car.

What a load of crap.

Old time hot rod guy he did a nice job.

deeporbit · 11-06-2009, 02:34 PM

PASSED SMOG!!! The TAC was the issue - I fixed it and the NOx score for 15mph went from 2463 to 746 = PASS. 25 mph went from 1619 to 1017 = fail. For the 25 mph test the tech used a previously plug vacuum line and attached it to the airbox, voila, passed at 685.

After many trials and tribulations and listening to advice here is what it turned out to be:

1. New cat - might not have needed that.
2. New intake hose - old one was thrashed
3. adjust timing
4. repair TAC
5. Add one vacuum line

Victory Condition!

dl242gt · 11-06-2009, 02:54 PM

Well done! Much of the time it's like that though. Where it's like three or four issues to finally conquer the problem.

Now you can put a cam in there and make it run even better while still having clean emissions.

jgunnar · 11-06-2009, 05:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ccbob

+1. Better to plug the hot air intake than risk a cooked AMM. I just passed visual insp. (Calif) with the TAC tube connected but it's blocked off inside the air box.

Yeah but a new cat is over six bills (Calif).

I had a stock replacement cat installed on the 245 for $200 at *******, granted I have been using them for 12+ years, but they are good guys.

Now if it was an OBDII 3" cat, $400 would probably be the right price, but $600 is just plain rape.

Edit: to cover my mechanics ass.

11-03-2009, 04:48 PM	#3
orie Doctor Who Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Folsom, CA	EGR failure. That's assuming 87 240's have EGR. __________________ 1990 745Ti, 230k Mls, IPD Sways / Cherry Turbos Upper and lower strut braces / IPD 2.5" Cat-back / AMSOil Series 2000 0w30 Synthetic 1993 945Ti, 180k Mls, Bone stock, blown head gasket. Work in progress! 1993 944Ti, 170k Mls, Bone stock, purrs like a kitten. GFmobile. 1992 745Ti, 160k Mls, lots of mods, went to the tree gods. 1983 245DL, 203k Mls, My first car (and most missed). Underage driver took her life.

11-03-2009, 04:54 PM	#4
dl242gt Can play the blues Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: S NJ, a suburb of Phila.	Are you sure you got all the vacuum leaks? Also what thermostat are you running. High NO can be caused from too hot combustion. Try a colder thermostat like a 82C one. __________________ Dave, 1982 242 turbo. 318k miles. A few changes for the better. 1993 245 Classic, 280k miles. Now with enem V15.

11-05-2009, 02:53 PM	#16
dl242gt Can play the blues Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: S NJ, a suburb of Phila.	Try FCPGroton. They seemed to have reasonable (haha) prices for CA legal cats. I also thought that only applied to OBD II californication cars. I thought 1995 and older were OK buying a cat that's just a cat. Last edited by dl242gt; 11-05-2009 at 06:09 PM.. Reason: correct spelling

11-06-2009, 02:34 PM	#23
deeporbit Board Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Palmdale	Passed!@ PASSED SMOG!!! The TAC was the issue - I fixed it and the NOx score for 15mph went from 2463 to 746 = PASS. 25 mph went from 1619 to 1017 = fail. For the 25 mph test the tech used a previously plug vacuum line and attached it to the airbox, voila, passed at 685. After many trials and tribulations and listening to advice here is what it turned out to be: 1. New cat - might not have needed that. 2. New intake hose - old one was thrashed 3. adjust timing 4. repair TAC 5. Add one vacuum line Victory Condition!

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11-03-2009, 04:15 PM	#1
deeporbit Board Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Palmdale	California smog failure My 87 245 has failed once again. The initial score on HC was 164 (limit is 114), CO was 0.03 (0.73 limit), NO was 3465 (785 limit). I changed the cat, new intake tube that had many holes, checked for other vaccuum leaks, runs. Now the scores are HC 10, CO 0.03, NO 2463. The HC went way down, and the NO dropped 1000 points. Mr. Tech guy was thinking it may be the O2 sensor. Any ideas? __________________ 87 245DL-bone stock. Stage 0.3 in progress.

11-03-2009, 04:23 PM	#2
moxy123 Board Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Phoenix, AZ USA	Might be the O2. Run the cat for a couple of hours hot before the test if it is new to break it in. I know some need to heat up for a while to get full function, mine did. Failed after a new install and then tried again after a few hot hours on it a day later and it passed. A quart of acetone in 5 gallons of gas might tweak it enough too.

11-03-2009, 08:39 PM	#5
deeporbit Board Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Palmdale	I got underneath the car and stuck a tube in my ear and listened around the exhaust manifold and connections. I suspected the gasket from the header but it was quiet. However the double tube that bolts to the header sounds sucky behind the heat shields. I'm thinking there could be a crack in there allowing/causing excessive O2 which blows the test up. Since I have a new cat I am also going to look at the entire exhaust system from head to tail. I listened around the head and the header gasket may be needing replacement. Cylinder #1 had 2 loose bolts!

11-03-2009, 09:20 PM	#6
orie Doctor Who Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Folsom, CA	High NO like that usually means high combustion chamber temps as mentioned above. Very unlikely to be anything past the combustion chamber, other than the O2 sensor, which is highly suspect. I'd direct my attention at the EGR system and the O2 sensor.

11-03-2009, 09:53 PM	#7
deeporbit Board Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Palmdale	I did some searching and found this : http://www.brickboard.com/RWD/volvo/...ual_cause.html

11-04-2009, 04:56 AM	#8
vanapeer old fcuk Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Pirita, Tallinn	did it help? browsing this forum would give Turbobricks Forums > Symposium > article composition > Smog failure checklist

11-04-2009, 10:41 AM	#9
ccbob Board Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: SoCal	Lucid on the Brickboard posted one of the cures for high NOx on 240 Volvo/Chrysler ignition systems. Plug the vacuum line going to the ICU. Follow the links in the msg for others' positive experiences. My '86 240 NOx was 1108 with 1125 max so it barely passed. I intend to plug that vacuum line and do a retest just for giggles. http://www.brickboard.com/RWD/volvo/..._ignition.html

11-04-2009, 09:12 PM	#10
deeporbit Board Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Palmdale	I dug in a little deeper and found that the TAC is not functioning. The flap is not moving which allows hot air to flow into the intake at all times. I'll order a new one and try the test again. Stay tuned (no pun intended).

11-04-2009, 10:46 PM	#11
dl242gt Can play the blues Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: S NJ, a suburb of Phila.	ccbob needs a new cat. Plugging the vacuum line will only make the car run like crap. To the op that may help with getting the combustion temps down a bit. I run cold air all year. It's easy. Remove the air box so you can work on it. Move air flap control rod to the closed position. You will see holes in the control rod. Insert screw through holes in control rod and through the plastic bracket behind it. This will keep the plastic rod pressing the flap closed permanently. The inspection guy will never see it since it is inside the airbox. Wala, cold air all the time.

11-05-2009, 01:54 AM	#12
ccbob Board Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: SoCal	+1. Better to plug the hot air intake than risk a cooked AMM. I just passed visual insp. (Calif) with the TAC tube connected but it's blocked off inside the air box. Yeah but a new cat is over six bills (Calif).

11-05-2009, 02:18 AM	#14
moxy123 Board Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Phoenix, AZ USA	I got mine, '93, 245, from NAPA, in stock so no shipping. Around $160 if I remember correctly. Perfect fit same as original, just bolt on. 30 minutes.

11-05-2009, 01:07 PM	#15
ccbob Board Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: SoCal	Sounds good, moxy, if I lived in AZ. The NAPA EXH 15746 ($169) and EXH 15196 ($124) aren't legal in Cali. I'll keep an eye on ebay, deep.

11-05-2009, 02:59 PM	#17
apologetik Board Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Central Hell (Merced), CA	^ Not since Jan. Us 240T guys are F'ed unless we install ourselves because it is illegal for a shop to install in the non-oem location. They also have to use a cat that is to original manufacturer spec (and it is warranted for 5 years or so). Your best bet in CA is to know how to weld or have a friend who does and import an illegal one. If the smog guy can not prove it was put on after the law change you are good to go.

11-05-2009, 05:24 PM	#18
deeporbit Board Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Palmdale	magna flow 36034 CA legal. Just shop around and you'll find wildly varied prices.

11-05-2009, 11:58 PM	#19
apologetik Board Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Central Hell (Merced), CA	That cat is for a 2.3 not the 2.1 turbo with the cat in the downpipe. According to their site and the representative of theirs, when I called, they do not have a cat available for my app in Cali. The search continues--not that I am looking. Joel

11-06-2009, 03:54 AM	#21
apologetik Board Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Central Hell (Merced), CA	That is not a bad price with the 5 year warranty and all. Hell I paid over 5 for the two cats in stock location on the Suburban, they were bolt in though.

11-06-2009, 02:54 PM	#24
dl242gt Can play the blues Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: S NJ, a suburb of Phila.	Well done! Much of the time it's like that though. Where it's like three or four issues to finally conquer the problem. Now you can put a cam in there and make it run even better while still having clean emissions.