'81 262c B28F CI fuel system issue

TestPoint said:

. . . so I did order the tank, a new fuel pump as the used replacement was very noisy, and a new filter.

After the retuned fuel distributor gets back from CA and a good flush of the fuel lines there should not be a reason for this thing not to work . . . he foolishly said.

I will keep the old tank and and try to clean it out in case the other Volvo has a similar problem. Think I have devised a tool to attach to the tank and to a reciprocating saw to shake the crap out of the tank with a quart of rocks in it.

Click to expand...

A good used tank is inexpensive enough that I have to question why one would go to the effort with rocks et-al cleaning out a fuel tank that should be tossed.

Bummer that it went this way. When it is all back together take a fuel sample right at the fuel distributor and run it through a coffee filter to verify that it is clean. There may be crud in the lines between the filter and fuel distributor. ugh.

I checked with VoluParts, here in Atlanta and they did not have a used 240 tank in inventory. With a used tank I would have the same question about contamination. The JayTan folks have been good about cleaning out the distributor a second time so I am not going to press my luck with a third contaminated distributor.

I will pump 10-15 gallons through the next time. I did pump the tank dry when I first got the car but there was only about a gallon there. Elroy apparently did not do an adequate job on cleaning the tank before.

Maybe too late but you can take your old tank to a radiator shop and have them boil it out. I'm at about the same point with my 81 coupe as you , maybe. I needed to replace the water pump so while I had it a apart I replaced alot of stuff with new, replated many things,new harness,etc. Took me a loooong time to button everything up.Then I dropped the tank to make sure I got all the old gas out and make sure it had no rust. Took it to a radiator shop and they inspected it and said all was good, no rust just a flush. Reinstalled tank added gas then no start. I new I should have put a new in -tank pump but I got lazy,it was running when I last had the car started many years ago. So now I will put the new pump in there and hope for the best. I really need to make time for thing as I'm getting anxious to drive this thing. So much so I bought another coupe just to have a running car!

Let this be a lesson . . .

. . . on cleaning out the fuel tank of a old car!

Despite Elroy telling me that he had cleaned the tank it is obvious that it was very rusty when I pumped the tank dry. The picture is of the rust that settled into the bottom of a mud bucket.



The primary pump assembly was covered with something that looked like fungus.



While the primary pump worked I am going to replace it and the rust clogged sock. Clearly, the reason the fuel gauge didn't work is because the float didn't make it back in or it may be in the bottom of the tank.

Guess I will see if I can clean and seal this tank to my satisfaction and replace the tank on the other Volvo project.

Replace that tank.... replace the pick-up and that in-tank feed pump.... The assembly is all rusted and poopy. There has been water in there.... No doubt due to 'oxygenated' gasoline that sat for too long or sitting sans gas cap. The sock filter is plugged up with RUST.

It will be worth having a good look at the fuel supply line that feeds the engine..... does it look similar inside? if so you've got a longer shopping list. I'd figure on replacing supply and return lines. The accumulator too. You will need to have the injectors cleaned. Your control pressure regulator and frequency valve will have that ish in them. It all must be spotless. Any getting back into a fuel distributor is going to make for another expensive repeat.

Do also have a good look at the fuel filler neck; that it is not allowing water in.... any hole is enough.

Buy a whole late model car with good tank, sender and pump but smashed car. Scrap late model car, enjoy.
81-82 cars should use same feed and return chassis lines.

As JL says.

With an old crusty kjet car I start at the back and work my way to the front. Crusty tank or lousy pre-pump (all the stock pre-pumps for 240s are lousy really) and on down the line.

On such a low mile car, unless rusted, the filler neck (aluminum I think), is probably not ovaled out.

I haven't had much luck with rebuilt fuel dists. I'd swap it really.

make sure you get thright prepump. The one in the pic has a little lip around the belly. A "regular" 200 pre-pump will not have it and it will slide off the holder. If you get newer version assembly it will hold the smooth prepumps.

Just tying a couple threads together . . . .

If you want to see the tank removal saga it is here: http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=269630

I did replace the tank due to the badly rusted interior rather than try to clean it. Two additional issues resolved in the process; the float was missing from the fuel level sensor and rattling around the bottom of the tank and Elroy had bent the pump pickup tube to the extent that more than a gallon of gas remained in the tank after it had been pumped dry . . . twice. That 'gas' looked more like mud.



New lift pump, new pressure pump, new filter, JayTan cleaned and recalibrated the distributor. Pumps in today. Maybe, maybe.

I know ya'll thought I got lost in the woods . . .

. . . . and the wild pigs ate me . . .

No, . . . its all back together again.

Previously I had replaced the plug wires, and plugs.

New fuel tank, NEW GAS, new in-tank pump, new sock filter, new pressure pump, new filter, fuel distributor back from its vacation in California. Everything flushed out before connection to the distributor. JayTan said that it had fine rust in it that got past the filter and that two of the outlets were a little low on pressure which they corrected. They handled under warranty.

After several efforts to get all the copper washers to quit leaking it started right up, idled high until the IAC closed then sat at a little under 1,000 rpm, 950 in gear. Adjusted the Lambda dwell to about 40% and took it for a drive . . .

. . . no power!

Getting late, dark and cold so I quit for the evening.

The one thing that I know of that I have not done is remove the muffler connection at the back side of the catalytic converter and run it that way. Number 1 tomorrow.

I will also check the control pressure in the morning. Going to check the spark advance and see if the plugs are running rich or lean but the Lambda/frequency valve should have handled that.

Guess I will do compression test again with all the plugs out and pull the injectors for a visual on the spray pattern. The spray looked good on the one injector that I tested after its much earlier cleaner soak. I have been trying to come up with an idea for 6 containers to spray the injectors into. Baby bottles have come to mind as they are cheap, marked as to volume and could be easily taped to the injectors. Anyone got a better suggestion?

I know Elroy had removed at least the left valve cover but I have seen no signs that work had been done on the front engine cover and potentially the cam timing. Anyone got a recommendation of a crankshaft to cam timing test? I guess I could go look up the alignment procedure in the Green Book but I really don't want to remove a valve cover and certainly not the front engine cover without fully eliminating everything else.

I will not let this thing beat me! Failure doesn't kill you, it only makes you stronger! I will not let this thing beat me! Failure doesn't kill you, it only makes you stronger! I will not let this thing beat me! Failure doesn't kill you, it only makes you stronger! I will not let this thing beat me! Failure doesn't kill you, it only makes you stronger! I will not let this thing beat me! Failure doesn't kill you, it only makes you stronger! I will not let this thing beat me! Failure doesn't kill you, it only makes you stronger! I will not let this thing beat me! Failure doesn't kill you, it only makes you stronger! I will not let this thing beat me! Failure doesn't kill you, it only makes you stronger!

Could have given it a nice even-firing three liter. It would go like hell but would still have needed all the fun with the gas tank et-al.

This just has to be a regular laugh riot for you.

You've verified that ignition advance is happening as it is supposed to? Seems like you did....

Blocked exhaust is common. Wear ear protection.

I'm B Aa Ccc Kkkk ! ! !

. . . and need help.

I had to put this thing down and forget about it for awhile.

With a new tank, new pumps, new filter, new fuel distributor and new fuel I thought this thing was going to be easy.

Previously I had verified that compression was good on one cylinder. Meter on my 45+ year old compression tester read about 160 psi.

Today I checked compression on all cylinders, warm engine, with a new compression tester:

1 -170, 2 -172, 3 -167, 4 -162, 5 -168, 6 -162

Boy, that looked good, well above specs and within 10%.

The old plugs were what I would call ‘text book tan’, what you would expect to see associated with a well running engine in a training manual. I installed new plugs along with resolving all the fuel issues and had not had them out since.

Today, for whatever reason, the left bank appeared as you might expect but the right bank was ‘as new’ without showing any signs of combustion. That was strange.

I measured the main pump pressure at about 75 psi within specs and ‘control pressure’ cold at 63 psi, low end of specs. Measured the pressure between the fuel distributor and cold start injector at about 73 psi which is within specs.

I pulled the injectors and duct taped them to baby bottles, jumped the fuel pump relay and filled them to about the 75cc level.









One, 4, 5 and 6 cylinders were all within eyeball of that 75cc. Number two was at about at the 50cc level and 3 was at a little over 25cc.




The spray pattern observed through the 80% clear baby bottles was, on all injectors, while not ‘perfect’ was close enough for me. All had a uniform circular pattern without any streams imbedded in the pattern.

Obviously, I have to resolve the significant different in volume on the #2 and #3 cylinders. Can the injectors be the problem? Or is this a fuel distributor problem?

Ignition timing is correct and CO adjustment is at 43% dwell. NO POWER.

I think I have addressed COMPRESSION, IGNITION TIMING and FUEL INJECTION. Where do I go from here?

I hate to even use the words but could Elroy have screwed up the cam timing?

Someone mentioned transmission issues but I have driven the car and counted shifts; it seems to start in low and up shift twice.

65psi control pressure cold?

If it is like 120 degrees outside! If it is 32F or colder it should be 10psi cold and 52-55ish warm. It shouldn't go below about 10ish below 32ishF on a ci car and should never exceed 52-55ish warm...all crudded up?

Control pressure appears to be an issue......

Much bigger issue is the likely dead fuel distributor.

Swapping fuel injectors from #1 and #3 and retesting will tell if it is injector failure or fuel distributor.

Mmmmmmm..... K-Jet

Plan for the day . . .

. . . if it quits raining.

First, based on JohnLane's input, I am going to pump a lot of fuel through the injectors to make sure that all the junk is flushed out. Then, if the volumes are still off I will swap #1 and #3 injectors to determine if the issue is distributor or injectors.

Then, after putting it all back together I will measure and pay closer attention to the control pressure both cold and warm. Warm is referring to the heated temperature by the element in the regulator.

Here are the specs on cold, or ambient temp and warm. It appears that the cold pressure at today's 68 degree outside temp should be 200 to 240 kPa or 29 to 35 psi. After warming the pressure should increase to 49 to 53 psi.



Excuse me, just musing over coffee on a rainy morning.

OK, my scooter trash friends wimped out on me this morning just because it was misting rain a little . . . girly girls! So I had time to work on the injection. Here is today's report:

Ran about 2 gal of gas through the injectors, #2 and #3 are still low volume compared to the others. Swapped injectors #1 and #3 and the problem stayed with injector #3, now fed from the cylinder #1 port on the distributor indicating that maybe the fuel distributor is good. Sun was out for the first time in a week so I was better able to observe the fuel spray pattern.



At idle a couple injectors just dripped, not sprayed. At full pressure all sprayed good looking patterns but at low-mid range they were not so pretty. Obviously, in need of severe cleaning. I guess they didn't appreciate having gas sit there for 19 years and then try to force trash filled fuel though them. Far back in this thread I think I mentioned that they wouldn't spray at all until I let full strength injector cleaner sit in them for a day.

Now that I have them out the control pressure is going to have to wait.

Likely injector nozzles. They wear out and rust up easy. Sometimes you get them and lines cleaned and moving again and they work "ok".
If issues follow each I injector to a T, probably the injectors, but I've had crud build up or lines rust up if metal internally.. Can fool a guy. Had that happen on the warm up regulator and warm up regulator screen and swore the car had a bad wur...nope...lines or inlet screen...yup...kjets...joy.

Getting back to the injectors tho...they are a precision nozzle that works at fluid velocities more like a water jet cutter, but works like your hose nozzle...you put light pressure on the plunger and it sprays a very very fine mist, in this case, out of a hot nozzle, nearly vaporizing the fuel near idling and likely vaporizing it fully as it is aimed at the very hot intake valve. If they are rusted, pitted, or had rust screaming thru them at those velocities, they are junk. Clean some used usable ones or buy new. With miles, just like hours on a water jet cutter, they wear out and make a bad spray pattern and this cut on water jet cutter or rough running or a abnormal running and wearing engine. Also, like a worn out hose nozzle, the pop off point changes or they leak. No bueno.

At higher load, the orifice size increases and they are more like the hose nozzle that you squeeze going from fine little spray and almost vapor, to closer to a stream for Maximum charge density with fuel vaporizing fully when squished in Engine/gets close to vaporizing when hitting hot intake valve...maximum space for air and even vaporization in all conditions with shortest cold enrichment is what we want for good performance, longevity, economy and emissions in all conditions.

It works pretty well when it's working right, minimal enrichment time required in cold weather like a conjoined manifold carb car breathint very evenly vaporized fuel almost immediately after startup (fine mist aiming at intake valve that heard up extremely fast...like the exhaust manifold), charge density of an efi car. Not so terrible. Don't have to wait for the coolant to warm up like an efi car to lean out the mix, which takes forever when it's real cold out, use cold start valve to get it to light the fine mist injected in a cloud in the intake fast, fast without being overly rich after initial starts and blow excess fuel out the exhaust before t gets in the oil/goes past rings when it starts.

Great idea for 1972, but it isn't 1972, and all those small non rebuildable worn out, crusted up mechanical parts do not age well. And it works reliably if you keep driving it and service it with good fuel and filters, and check up on here and there. But injectors, many times, if corroded at all from age, or over ~150-200k, are worn out junk that cleaning won't always cure.

I don't really believe that the fuel dist can be rebuilt easily without something basically identical to the factory assy jig and machining. I question that. Most I've been able to take the metering pin out and let them sit in solvent, replace orings and get all the crud and varnish out and they work fine. Some do not...petrified in rust. No good. Most parts are fairly corrosion resistant with springs and plates with holes inside. Most of the time dissolve and blow out the ick and replace the orings and they work way better. Not always. At the best of times, cheap gas and filters and the mtbe and alcohol that attracts moisture in the gas that most of these cars are exposed to at some point does ugly things.

CPR, back blow your lines, back blow while picking at screen, take apart and clean valve, check line flow to and from. Once you see a lot of them, you can diagnose fast with pressure gauge and eliminating problems from tank to injector nozzle and everything in between. But the buy in time required to rule it all out 20+ years old and elroy hacked is a mountain to climb.

I told someone 1 grand and up for a kjet car with a strong motor buy in to sort it to run decent...garden variety 81 244dl, very strong b21f. Reliably slow for thr most part. Not including the rest of the car, condition of tank or pumps. Just buy in time to assess and test once torn into tank an intake off, needing vac hoses, Pcv, wiring harness that will be disturbed, heater hoses etc etc etc. So, yeah, I see with your sitting rare motor hacked up car that and a ton more i your time and materials. Hard if you don't know this going in on old pos kjet cars from painful experience. That time and material buy in bumper to bumper when avg joe doesn't have a grand plus at a time plus whatever routine stuff the car needs even on the better cared for ones is bad for the customer and mech on old kjets junk. Not terrible for things of its era, but not good either. I also said that, hey, it tests out and looks food in tank, all systems go, injectors and dist test "good nuff for now" and the more routine stuff as you dig a bit or dont disturb too much gets it back to running, and it isn't as bad SS all that, you might get out cheaper, but I rather say a grand and up hsn regret not saying that so you don't get delusional and expect miracles for pennies on ancient average neglected junk.

I think your are narrowing it down, but the rust and elroy cancer is everywhere. Many organ transplants and definitive tests in all conditions required. If the control pressure is thru the roof, it will be so lean at load, but idling and maybe starting ok, that it flat out wont work right.

Ahhhhhhhhhh........ So injectors haven't been done yet......

Having sat the number of years it has with all that sh*t in the tank that went through them.... We know what we'll find.

$tings a bit but the right thing to do is purchase a set of new injectors.

I'm happy to give your current set a whirl.... But don't want to set expectations very high.

Ahhhhhh rust!

^indeed.

Lines, injectors, wur do not like rust/alcohol/mtbe. Nor do gsskets, hoses and orings really either. Plastic lines pretty durable, but likely dirty.

It's a mechanical system that one gets to pinch, poke snd sort end to end. Work intent to end and decide how deep you wish to dig at the outset.

There are worse afflictions to suffer than kjet on old cars. Some parts not rebuildable, but aviailable used and new for a price.

945ti said:

^indeed.

There are worse afflictions to suffer than kjet on old cars.

Click to expand...

Cancer can more often then not be cured.... K-Jet will still be K-Jet.

That said.... I'll continue to enjoy the sunshine this lovely morning!

No Cigar!

I pulled the injectors and sent them to John's Northern Washington Injector Lodge and Spa but he declared that were beyond hope. Full of rust and way out of bounds on pressure test.

S o o o o o o . . . I installed a complete set of brand new Bosch injectors today . . . no change. The engine starts instantly, idles fine, revs fine . . . no power.

Having a 22 year old grandson available, we also removed the converter down pipe from the back end of the exhaust system. No change.

This car has a new fuel system from the gas cap to the injectors. Fuel distributor rebuilt and then cleaned and recalibrated again by a well known rebuilder that has been great to work with. New gas in a new tank. New lift pump, new pressure pump, new filter . . . and now new injectors.

New ignition system from the coil to the plugs except for the distributor itself. Blue spark. Ignition timing meets no vacuum, centrifugal advance and full advance specs. Compression test above specs on all cylinders. Frequency valve vibrating and dwell within specs as of last test.

I am going to go through the pump pressure, control pressure and fuel Lambda dwell tests tomorrow but early on they were completely within specs.

About the only thing left that I can think of is that Elroy went so far as to screw up the crankshaft/valve timing but I would think that that should show up on the compression test.

One more detail; early on when I first got a timing light, after all these years not needing one, the first ignition timing observation found it set at about 10 degrees AFTER top dead center. I quickly changed that. I do not remember if the engine was running at that time or if that was part of the start up solution.

Suggestions appreciated.

I am going to marinate some more olives.