700/900 T5 or Getrag Swap...now that we have some examples...

Allrighty gents, given my less than *ahem* stellar performance at the dyno last week due to a sh*tty, but rather new stock clutch, I've come to the realization that I need to get off my butt and go for a tranny swap. I have done my due diligence and searched a plethora of threads. While the 240 swaps have taken off like hotcakes, it's taken a bit longer for my 700/900 brethren to wade into the danger/fabrication zone. However, now we have one 700 getrag up and running (Mr. Weezil) and a T5 as well (Mach375), the realities are a bit better now.
So, given the choice, which swap would you prefer and why? Which would require the least amount of fabrication (I have limited access to metal working equipment, any welding would have to be out-sourced). Ultimately, I'd like to compile this all into a workable swap guide, much like doug's "T5 all you need to know" does for the 240's (well, mainly the 240's, I realize there is 700/900 info in there, but it's all scattered)

Here are my thoughts:

Getrag 265
Pros: Can be found in almost any junkyard if you look carefully. Can spend as little as $75 (81 635) and as much as $800 (88 M3) even though they're the exact same thing (we're talking the 265 here, not the CR 262) Shift tower is relatively easily modified with a little cut and weld. Short section of the driveshaft easily modified to work. Nearly perfect ratios for our cars (particularly w/my 3.73 rear end) Killer UUC motorworks short shifter
Con: Crossmember appears to be a real beotch (take a look at Weezil's contraption), rebuilds could be a tad pricey.

T5
Pros: Can be found laying around your neighbor's yard, often used as a paperweight (but more likely will cost $200-$400 for a decent 5.0 tranny) Crossmember appears to involve a pretty simple plate adapter w/no welding. Rebuild shouldn't be that aweful. Killer Pro5.0 short shifter.
Con: Shifter position is all messed up, requiring some serious messing with the fuse block and a good 1-2" chopped out of the shifter hole to make it work (Mach375's design). I have heard conflicting stories regarding the GM transmission and it's ability to work, something about tilting it 12 degrees to make it stand up. Might require a one piece driveshaft?

Release your collective knowledge please! Otherwise I'mjust gonna start speaking in tongues about M90's and the damn atlantic ocean

Thanks!
-Lloyd

Lloyd take a look at Boris' 740 T5 install, VERY professional. I'd say, the only snag is the shifter position, easiest thing to do is just weld a straight bar plate between the shifter (trans half) and the handle half.

piece of cake.

http://www3.sympatico.ca/borism/T5/
There's a link to boris's install pictures.

I am the owner of a 900 series and I'm currently in the process of gathering all the parts for a T5 install. The only hurdle to clear appears to be getting the throwout bearing to function properly. John Parker at v-performance.com offers modified volvo clutch forks but I have not been able to get in contact with him so I have nothing more on that than what his website says.

When I perform my swap I will document everything and take many pictures. I'm always full of questions so I'll try and make my writeup very in depth so answer as many of peoples questions as possible, from the flywheel to the driveshaft.

One of the pros of the T5 is that it's an american product and therefore is cheap and has abundant parts, plus it helps that it comes from a very popular car. If you blow your transmission up 2000 miles from home, you can pretty easily find a new one.

i had an email with v-performance and said that a 10% discount on adapterplate and bellhousing machineing for 5 or more peopel in a group buy. hardest thing would be getting teh bellhousings to him in a group buy due to teh fact he doesn't have many laying around

I am not a fan of the T5 for a 740. I am going getrag when my M46 quits. They can be found easy enough, and they will bolt up to the 740 M47 driveshaft, or really friggnin close (super minor trimming anyway). Then you don't have to use some heavy old skoool one PC shaft (at considerable additional cost), as the volvo/BMW shaft is a nice piece and fits in the tunnel well and is a close fit anyway. The 940 has a redesigned cross piece across the prop shaft tunnel it seems, as it is a little different around the fuel tank.
The getrag is also more sophisticated in many ways, though its aftermarket is limited. basically, I consider the T5 is the BW/Ford/GM version of an M46, but it has more money adn aftermarket behind it, so it is a fair bit better.
However, getrags are showing up more and more, and the price for an adapter and retaining all teh 740 stuff like the guibo, OD ratio, and shifter all seem good. It would nto be super hard to just re use the M4x shifter like ben did and make a short throw.
I have driven an M3 with the getrag, adn it shifts niiice!
Feel free to do the T5 of course, but I am inclined to go the seemingly significantly easier route.
Anyway, I have a new clutch, and I think the springs in the disk help keep my M46 alive.
You can run a BMW 9" 6 cylinder disc on a 740 I think.
If I had a 240 I would not my so synical about T5s. The getrag also has a higher torque rating than many T5s.
I will be running 3.31 gears from a 960 soon though, as the getrag is pretty close ratio, but has an OD ratio of ~.81 for most ones, though the dogleg ones and a few others are 1:1, but I remember Peter saying that teh dogleg is a PITA on the street.
gearing is probably fine with LLoyds 3.54 though.

Although a T5 is a great tranny, I too think if I do a conversion I would go with the getrag.

Why would you have to go with a 1pc shaft in a 740? There really is no reason you have to do it.

The mounts are a piece of cake, the shifter is a piece of cake, the clutch is a piece of cake, whats not to like?

If anyone here makes enough power to break a T5 I'll be impressed.

Snoop Dougy Doug said:

Why would you have to go with a 1pc shaft in a 740? There really is no reason you have to do it.

The mounts are a piece of cake, the shifter is a piece of cake, the clutch is a piece of cake, whats not to like?

If anyone here makes enough power to break a T5 I'll be impressed.

Click to expand...

Not to be condescending, however, the ford uses a different attachment at the back, to deal with that would require a fair bit of custom work. A getrag would at most require that you chop an M47 shaft a tiny bit and rebalance it a little again. That is based on what little measurments I have been gathering.
I don't claim to be any sort fo expert on this, but if I can realistically price and piece out a getrag to just bolt in where my M46 lives at very minimal cost, as opposed to a slightly less sophisticated T5 (still a world better than the M46, don't get me wrong about that), why would I not want a getrag.
Also, a getrag has ratios meant for motors of smaller displacement, unless you count a few 4 cylinder T5s, which don't seem like an upgrade from an M4x. I will concede that I like the ~.7 OD ratio of the T5, but swapping the rear gears at using the stock driveshaft is more applealing to me.
To each his own. If I were driving a 240, I would not think twice about it, i would be much more inclined to run a T5.

945ti said:

Not to be condescending, however, the ford uses a different attachment at the back, to deal with that would require a fair bit of custom work. A getrag would at most require that you chop an M47 shaft a tiny bit and rebalance it a little again. That is based on what little measurments I have been gathering.
I don't claim to be any sort fo expert on this, but if I can realistically price and piece out a getrag to just bolt in where my M46 lives at very minimal cost, as opposed to a slightly less sophisticated T5 (still a world better than the M46, don't get me wrong about that), why would I not want a getrag.
Also, a getrag has ratios meant for motors of smaller displacement, unless you count a few 4 cylinder T5s, which don't seem like an upgrade from an M4x. I will concede that I like the ~.7 OD ratio of the T5, but swapping the rear gears at using the stock driveshaft is more applealing to me.
To each his own. If I were driving a 240, I would not think twice about it, i would be much more inclined to run a T5.

Click to expand...

Not to be an ass, but if you have to even touch the driveshaft, you'll have the same amount of work either way. EVERY driveline shop on earth will have T5 yokes in stock.

You really shouldn't knock the T5's gearing till you drive one. EVERY SINGLE person who has one, loves it. The only bitch are the guys with the "Z" or newest ones that have the really tall 5th. I love the gearing in mine, wouldn't change a thing.

Theres been 1 Getrag swap and probably a dozen almost 2 dozen T5's now. So its hard to say the exact truth with getrags (cause afterall, you are assuming alot here) compared to the T5.



Back on the driveline note, there is no "small chop, small balance". You touch it, modify it at all, and the entire shaft will have to be rebalanced. Same goes if you put a T5 yoke on the other end. Might as well replace all the ujoints while your at it too. So you can't say the Getrag requires less work... it'll have to see a DS shop for either swap.

I think you will be visiting the driveshaft shop either way, so that is a wash. I also think you will be doing some custom welding or work on the cross member either way, so that is a wash, also. And I think you will be doing some custom welding on the linkage, so that is also a wash.

The Getrag 265 is a better trans than the Ford T5, but most examples are also older. 10 year old Ford T5 versus 20 year old Getrag 265. Prices for the best and worst examples of both are about the same. I'd call that a wash.

Aftermarket shifters are available for both. I'd give a slight nod to the Ford, since mass production lowers the cost.

Stock and aftermarket clutch parts are available for both, though you will be using some Volvo parts. I'd call that pretty much a wash, with a slight nod to the Ford again, due to lower parts costs.

Either can be used with cable or hydraulic actuation, perhaps with some custom work, depending on the car. I'd call that a wash.

Where the Ford has the clear advantage is in replacement or rebuild cost. A new Ford is about $1100; a rebuilt is about $800. People can rebuild them at home. Stronger versions are available for $1500 plus. A Getrag rebuild (at least the prices I have seen), is about $2000. You cannot do one yourself without a 30 ton shop press, at a minimum. However, the Getrag is stronger than a stock Ford (even the best of the stock T5s). They can be rebuilt stronger, for another $500 on top of the $2000.

I am doing a Getrag, though I am not sure it is the wisest choice. I'll report on how it turns out in a month or so, when I do it.

Philip Bradley

My thoughts exactly PB. You can rebuild T5's to do just about anything you want.

One of the nicer perks about the T5 is... you can get other transmisson that will bolt on to a t5 bellhousing and be a straight replacement... which is good for us because we have "t5 bellhousings" too now

Peter @ MVP's is a 265 isn't it? He likes it.

Peters is listed as an M51 on their website which means its a dead on bolt up

Peter at MVP has a M51 bellhousing he also has a 262 CR box he puts in for racing and an OD (265) box he puts in for daily use.(I believe, this is 3rd hand knowledge so don't quote me on this)
He is happy with it, Paul however HAS broken his M90 Although I beleive it was just a synchro he lost drag racing and was able to have it repaired.
Getrags are very high quality units and bmw owners (they are not comparing it to a T5 but to other BMW trannis) often tout the 265 as a very strong stout transmission (roadfly)
" getrag 265 is the best bet, they are the strongest transmission and it would be rare that you would get a bad 265, it would have to have high miles and have been abused for most of those miles. Check the classifieds, i have a 265 on there in great shape."
"The 265 will probably outlast your engine, and there are other nice things about it, for instance if at some point you wanted that cool dogleg transmission, you would already have everything else on the car, and installing with a separate bellhousing has its conveniences"


Rebuilds can be costly however and most recomend using used parts for them "A 265 can be had for $150 to $400 if you look around.
You would not believe the price for 265 internals. As an example, the 5 bearings for the 3 shafts will run yout about $1200. The bearings are not standard sizes -- they are specific to this trans only. Synchro rings are about $100 to $150 each depending on type (moly or toothed). To replace the sychros, you have to take the shafts apart. 5th gear requires 5 tons to remove. And, you have to do it with the center case hanging on. See http://www.cscoupe.org/tech/5speed/prep.html "

"On a side note, a used 265, practically regardless of mileage, will last the life of the car, they are very strong transmissions which is why they are preferred, not for gearing or anything like that."

Anyway a rebuild by one of the best toted by BMW fanatics runs ~1500.

Obviously the aftermarket on T5's OWNS the getrag for cost. Both are good trannis, and will all probably be more than good enough for anything you want on the street.
I think the aftermarket question isn't really too valid as if you are going to do a tranni swap you don't want to redo it, so people who are planning ridiculous power numbers are going to go auto because it will most likely be a drag car. And those who are like john lane and want SUPER DUPER power holding are going to go jerrico or such.
Anyway T5 is a good swap and since JP is backing it so completely it is obviously easy to just about buy it off the shelf which is nice. I am not that into backing up the getrag swap with mounts or TO bearings or forks I figure if yah are going to do a tranni swap you should be able to do that stuff or get someone to do it for yah.

Lates,
Sean

Thanks Sean, I thought Peter said he was running the 265 when I talked to him last sunday

the common problem with 265's is that they all end up leaking like a sieve. i know the one in my 242 pisses oil everytime i've drive, though it has kept the rust at bay down the left underside of the car

Has anyone used a T5 from a Camaro? I still have mine sitting on top of my tool box. I havn't messed with it (Been bussy) but it's on my to do list. Before everyone started putting T5s' in, I was trying to find out if the shifter was in the same spot etc. Anyone figured it out? It's a T5wc out of a '91 V8 Camaro. I remember a lot of people scoffing at the idea of putting a T5 in. Glad to see so many people went with it.

shifter is in fact farther back will know very shortly when i go to attleboro

bellhousing bolt up is different tho

Ravenous sounds like your speedo cable doesn't have a good seal. left side is side of the speedo cable and that s likely where your leak is originating.
Sean

just out of interest, how thick is your adapter plate sean , i have a 262 box , but it came from a 3 series , im just thinking how much further out the input shaft is in relation to the bellhousing .

it is 3/4" offhand it might be on one side or the other, however it will work with a 262 or 265 box, pretty much if it has a detachable bellhousing it should work.
Sean